Indiecast - The Return Of Diiv + The Rise Of Hotline TNT

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

It's not every day that a new song by the popular indie-rock band The Beatles drops. But that's what happened right as Steven and Ian were scheduled to record this week's episode. So they started late, and listened to "Now And Then," and then decided... that it sounds like a '90s power pop band attempting to sound like The Beatles. Not necessarily a bad thing? But is it really necessary to take an old John Lennon demo, have Macca and Ringo lay on a new rhythm track, and label it the "last" Beatles tune?After that discussion, the guys discuss "Soul Net," a new single by the great shoegaze outfit Diiv (15:21). Back in the 2010s, it seemed like these guys were either accused of being overhyped or totally ignored. But their music from that era really holds up, and Steven and Ian are excited about the potential for a new album. They are also really into a new shoegaze band, Hotline TNT, who dropped a great new album called Cartwheel today (24:41).Since the guys are so positive in this ep, it seemed OK to talk about a band they both hate, but also feel like isn't popular enough to publicly hate. What are the ethics of "punching down" for critics talking about artistically suspect acts that haven't reached the masses? Steven and Ian try to talk it out (34:05). Then, in the mailbag, they give the "yay or nay" treatment to They Might Be Giants (46:14).In Recommendation Corner (51:07), Ian talks up the latest effort from Empty Country while Steven recommends Philadelphia band Golden Apples.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 162 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast. In this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about a new song by The Beatles, a new song by Dive, and a new album by the up-and-coming band Hotline TNT. My name is Stephen Haydn and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He thinks now and then is the Beatles' most emo song yet. Ian Cohen, Ian, Ian, how are you? You see, that's where you're wrong, because I'm pretty sure. I've written on Twitter or like blog spots sometime in the past that run for your life invented third wave emo. Did you really? Probably. That sounds like some bullshit. You know you got to like go back to the, you know, the pre-drugs Beatles to bring up the problematic songs that they made on like Rubber Soul in before.

But yeah, run for your life. People are like, yeah, that one, I don't know if I can jive with that one. But that's just what I imagine, like, 60s pop rock sounding like. People that rip that song don't realize that John Lennon is referring to a Elvis Presley song with the, like, quintessential, like the important lyric. I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man is a lyric from a song called Baby Let's Play House. I mean, Elvis didn't originate it, but his version's the most famous one.

It's from the Sun Records era. Plausible deniability, baby. Well, I'm just saying, Elvis maybe, is the one who invented third-way email via John Lennon. Now and then, the name of the just-released Beatles song, the song that is just released as we are recording this, we actually pushed back our recording start time a few minutes so we could listen to the new song by the Beatles. And look, it's weird. This isn't really a new song. Maybe this is something we could talk about for a little bit. what they did was they took a demo that John Lennon recorded before he died

Paul McCartney, Ringo, like they play over it they did some like AI magic tricks which I don't quite understand but you know they they did something some kind of manipulation to make it sound integrated and now we have this song you may remember going back now almost 30 years they did something similar with two other John Lennon demos Free as a Bird and Real Love that were released in conjunction with the anthology series in 1995.

This song sounds more integrated just because the technology is better. Like those older songs, those older, new in quote marks Beatles songs, really did just sound like a demo with like very glossy Jefflin produced instrumentation put over it. I don't know. I'm curious to hear what you think about. this. To me it reminds me of all those 90s power pop bands that would make

a song that sounded like late period Beatles. That's what this sounds like to me. I don't know if you have any opinions on this. Yeah, like as I was doing this outline, I was on the same shit where it's like there's got to be some 90s band like some remembering some guys I could

do and like I just failed completely. It was on the tip of my tongue and I know these bands exist. I want to say like jellyfish or something. something, but... Oh yeah, Jellyfish. I mean, or Sloan, I think, was another band that came to mind. Yeah, they had some Beatles sounding songs.

Yeah, but Sloan is good and like this... Yeah, I'm not knocking it when I say that. I tweeted this and like about a dozen middle-aged guys were like, that's my favorite kind of music. I'm like, I'm not knocking it. I like that stuff too. I'm just saying, like, that's what it sounds like to me. If I was going to describe what it sounds like, that's what it would be.

There was no value judgment attached to it. Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm going to reach out to our more, our 30-something rather than our middle-aged people by saying it to me sounded like a less vibey version of B-side that might have shown up on lonerism, which again, not knocking that. I mean, it's better than my immediate assumption, which is that AI Beatles, this is going to sound like Zach Starkey era oasis. By the way, I... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't take shots at Zach Starkey Oasis. Like, that's a good era of Oasis. Like, the era between, like, the glory years and the Zach Starkey years is, like, where it gets a little dicey.

But, like, Zach Starkey, that's don't believe the truth. That's, like, the great late period Oasis record. So you don't need to shoot any strays at Zach Starkey here, I'm just saying. All right. One thing I do want to know is, like, the fact that you knew the 2005 album, like, off the dome, it doesn't bode well for my question here. But what's the last Oasis album? it was oh what's it called

I know this I could picture the cover yeah it's a terrible cover yeah it's like a green cover what's it called I know like like shock of the lightning is on that record

I like that song what is that called do you know it yeah well it's because I had to look it up but it's called Dig Out Your Soul and oh see I knew that and the funny thing is that it looks like a Chemical Brothers album cover

cover. Yeah. And the title sounds like the Chemical Brothers album, which one of those dudes was on. Setting Sun is, yeah. Noel Gallagher. Noll. Yeah. It's like one of the best songs ever made.

Yeah, that one had a Jim Archer song. That's to be where there's life. And Andy Bell getting some credits on that. Yeah. Yeah, they, Andy Bell has a great song on Don't Believe the Truth called, um, these Oasis songs. Keep the Dream Alive. I believe that's an Andy Bell song.

There's also a song called A Bell Will Ring. Yep. Which I think was... It'd be funny if that was Andy Bell, if he wrote that song. Someone named Archer made that, yeah. Yeah, it's Jim Archer wrote that song. I kind of wish Andy Bell would have written A Bell Will Ring. So, yeah, I don't know.

Again, like this song, I group it in the same category as free as a bird and real love, where these are Beatles songs, like, with Aster. You know, like they're not real Beatles songs to me. And I feel like most people aren't going to take these in as real Beatles songs, even though this song is being billed as like the last Beatles song, which I don't even know it's true. I mean, there may be like 50 years in the future. There may be like AI Beatles songs that are being created for future box sets.

Like I wouldn't totally rule that out. But I don't know. Like for me, I'm a huge Beatles fan. I'm a big fan of the Beatles archive industrial complex. I love Get Back. I love all the box sets. But I get more excited about new Beatles songs that are actually old Beatles songs that they just like dug out of a vault. Like the revolver box set, the fast version of rain, you know, from 1966.

That's awesome. I want to hear that. But I don't really want to hear like a new Beatles song that they've pasted together. It just feels weird to me. Yeah. I don't know if you watch the 12 minute. We thought that the only thing we were going to have access to before we record is a 12 minute. YouTube documentary about the creation of the song.

I know Sean Lennon's in it, so I was just kind of hoping he'd go off on some anti-vax shit, but, you know, that didn't happen. We count that as a win. Yeah, I'm interested in this song, particularly because you were talking about the Beatles Industrial Complex, which was a massive thing when we were, you know, in our teens in the early 90s. You know, like Free as a Bird and, like, of course, the reissues of the red and, of, of the red and blue double albums.

I think that that's what this one is in relation to. I think they're like remastering and re-releasing the blue double CD. I guess that's like the post-toring hits. That's 67 to 70s. Okay. And then red is 62 to 66. I believe that they're putting out both of those. And I mean, it's so funny that like even Beatles' greatest hits albums,

get reissued and like have reputations, you know, like, blue and red. Like, those albums were huge for me. Enormous. When I was a teenager, just getting into the Beatles, like, though that was my gateway into the catalog. So I have a sentimental attachment to those records. I'm not going to get the remastered versions. I'm not that much of a freak with this band, but, uh, yeah, it just speaks to the level

of beetle lore that's out there. And again, like, this isn't a real Beatles song in my opinion, but I'm not mad at it either. I'm not one of these like purists like, oh, they shouldn't have done this. I just think it's irrelevant. I mean, we're going to forget this by next week. But it's a fun novelty and it's fun to talk about a new Beatles song on our show. Yeah. What I'm hoping for is that we get like these sort of campaigns for the canonical greatest hits albums of our youth.

Like we get the doors, the one with like the Jim Morrison shirtless pose reissued, maybe the Eagles greatest hits reissued. let's gin up these classic rock war horses. Well, I mean, that Eagles won, that's still like one of the best-selling albums of all time. So I'm sure that's been remixed and remastered and re-released millions of times. I mean, that is like definitely a big one.

Like Jimmy Hendrick's smash hits, that's another big classic rock greatest hits album. Yeah, greatest hits albums. That would be a fun conversation, the greatest greatest hits albums. I've actually thought about writing that comic. No limit. No cash money platinum hits.

That's the best one. Let's do a quick fantasy update here. Because we're nearing the end of our active albums. My last album comes out today. It's the comeback kid by Marnie Stern. I looked on Metacritic. I haven't seen any reviews yet. So it remains to be seen how I'm doing here.

I have to say, though, that I have more. hope today than I did a week ago because as listeners I'm sure are aware because you've been keeping very close tabs on this. The last two albums for our fantasy teams, because right now Ian and I are tied, which is insane that we're tied. That we were tied going into like the last album for both of us. That's so bizarre to me that we, that's got to be like a mathematical anomaly. But we ended up being tied going into our last albums. Your last album is Taylor's Swift, 1989 Taylor's version.

Mine is the comeback kid by Marnie Stern. Looking pretty grim for me. That's like a tough matchup for me. But Taylor, I mean, at one point she had like

100 metacritic score. And there were people messaging me like, oh, like you must be sweating buckets right now. Like you're going to get blown out of the water. That score has dropped over the course of

week down to 90, which is a strong score. But I think this is going to be a lot closer than we anticipated. Like, I don't think I'm going to win. I don't think Marty's turn is going to hit 90. But I think I'm only going to lose by like five or six as opposed to like 20. So I'm feeling, like, I'm feeling better about this than I was a week ago. Yeah, I think the situation here is, to use fantasy football terms, like Taylor, is like when you have Tua on the dolphins putting up like 250 yards and three touchdowns in the

first half and then they just run the ball second half of they just want the game to be over whereas Marty Stern has a lot of Sam Howell potential. Sam Howell is a guy I've had on my team who just puts up like complete garbage points at the end of the game but like they all count the same. Yeah I'm wondering if like with the Taylor stuff like are we for are we starting to see the cracks of like maybe people getting a little tired like when she has to do the Taylor version of like lover and reputation are we going to start to see people like maybe start to break ranks or is that just going to be a situation where you know it's like oh these are like actually her un unhuralded masterpiece is the way you see people go to bat for

like you know around the world in a day for prints or something like that i don't know 1989 is an interesting record because it is the album that really made her like a mainstream pop star like without question. I mean that that transition was going on for a while, but like 1989 really cemented her. But it's like not her most critically acclaimed record. I feel like the record before, Red is the big one that critics tend to go for. And then there's fearless a little bit before that. So I think she was set up here to maybe take a hit for those reasons.

But I don't know. I mean, I would think that there would be a backlash coming because, I mean, she owned this year without question. She's like the biggest thing. She kind of ate pop music really in 2023. Like she ate the pop music industry. There's like Taylor Swift and then there's like everybody else and like she seems bigger than like everybody else combined.

And that seems like. a recipe for some sort of tipping point. At the same time, the coverage of her is still pretty like hyperbolic and over the top and crazy and worshipful. So I don't know. Maybe there's small cracks, but it still seems like there's a lot of Taylor Swift sentiment, you know, in the critical community. Yeah.

I also got a shot to pitch for it for the person. reviewing it already being on private on Twitter or not on Twitter at all. Like that's got to be, I think that's got to be a prerequisite to review that record. Yeah, can we chill out, Tiller Swift fans? Like, how much praise does she need? Like, when do we reach the point, like, where she has the proper level of respect and that it's okay to, like, not just genuflect in her direction? Like, is there, like a, you know, I'm like,

Charlie Sheen talking to Michael Douglas and Wall Street right now. How much is enough? How much is enough, Gordon? How much money do you need? I feel like this is, you've reached that point already. You guys need to chill out here. Take a 7.7. It's fine. Not the end of the world.

Do you like the Wall Street reference, by the way? I feel like it's a very relevant... Yeah, I was about to say. Reference, referencing this 36-year-old movie. Yeah, I'm sure that is going to play really well with our younger listeners. Let's talk about something I'm excited about that I heard this week, which is a new song from the band Dive.

They did this weird thing, actually like a really cool thing, where they set up like a very old-school-looking website, and they set it up basically to introduce this new song. It's called SoulNet. And you can't listen to it on Spotify or on Apple Music or in any streaming platform. This was a very deliberate move by this band to at least at this point

circumvent the usual music listening channels and to set up their own sort of weirdo website where you could listen to this song. So that's a very cool thing. Even cooler than that is that I think the song is fantastic. And it's well time for me personally because I've been listening to dive a lot lately. In particular, this live record that they put out last year,

called Live at the Murmur Theater, which totally passed me by when it came out last year. It came out almost exactly a year ago. It was like right around Thanksgiving that it dropped. And I don't think I noticed it when it first came out. But it's like one of the best live albums of like the last like 10 or 15 years. It's so good. The band sounds great.

It's a great set list. They do a beautiful cover of this Alex G song, Hollow. They do a My Bloody Valentine cover of When You Sleep, and then they play a bunch of their own songs, obviously. And, you know, I've been listening to that record a lot. I've been listening to their last studio record, which is Deceiver from 2019, which is a record I loved when it came out. But I feel like, as is often the case with this band, that it sounds even better in retrospect. And I wanted to get your take on this. I know you're you're a fan of Dive, just like I am, and we've talked about their 2016 album, is the

isar on this show. We're both big fans of that album. I feel like in the 2010s, there was a pretty like vocal contingent of critics who basically dismissed Dive as being the sort of like also ran indie band, very by the numbers. You know, they weren't really given a lot of respect. But man, like the three records that they put out in the 2010. I think are all really great. And I think that they're actually one of the best indie rock bands of that era. And, you know, they often get described as shoegaze, which I think is broadly true of that band. But, like, when I listen to their records, the band that comes to mind is the cure.

They remind me of the cure in the sense that, like, the cure, you know, they were pigeonholed in a different way. They were called like a goth band by a lot of people. and they're unquestionably very influential on goth. But I think the reason why the cure endures is that essentially they're a great pop band. They write great songs that are catchy and that beautiful melodies. And they have this atmosphere around it that adds to the richest of it that gives it that goth flavor or that alternative rock flavor. But where the meat is is like they just write great pop songs.

And to me that's where Dive is as well. Like those records to me hold up so well because for all of their beautiful, ambience and atmosphere, they just write really good songs. And I think that the single that they've just released, which I assume is going to be portending a new album. We haven't heard that they're putting on it. They haven't announced a new album yet, but I assume that's coming. And if, and assuming that's coming, that's already on my short list of like my most excited albums that I want to hear next year. I really hope that this can be a dive record that we can all appreciate as like a masterful record in the moment, because I think they,

deserve that kind of reception. I mean, they've already been around for like a decade at this point, which is kind of weird to think about with this group. But I don't know. I think they're very underappreciated. And they seem like they're on the cusp of maybe finally getting their due at this point. I mean, do you think that's fair to say? Well, I mean, for myself, Deceiver is an album I like more now than when I first heard in 2019.

It's not that I didn't like it when I heard it. I thought it was good. but, you know, I get maybe got lost in the mix of other stuff I was excited about. But it's held up really well and I think is the Azars by is like a class, a indie cast Hall of Famer type classic of, you know, mid-2010's shoegays slash dream pop. It's interesting to talk about like dive as a band that hasn't gotten their due because I reviewed their first album, Ocean, in 2012.

And it's, I, I, that was like, real. really, really, really hyped. And it made me think about how this band, and it's like a very small category of bands who follow this path of starting out as like a really, really buzzy band. Like, Dive, like, was a buzz band back in 2012. Like, you had, you know, Kent 285, Zach or Cole. I keep forgetting whether they go by Zach or Cole, but they were, like, dating

Sky Ferreira at the time. And they've gotten better as the buzzer. has died down. I think like, you know, we're going to talk about empty country later on. Simblez E guitar is a good example of that. Neon Indian, I think, is another example of a band whose first album is the most hyped one, and they just got better and better as, you know, people stopped. The guy got taken for granted. I think that's true in the larger sense, but with Dive, um, Shuge's dream pop, these are extremely recession-proof subgenres. You have, like, loyalists at all times. regardless of like what's happening in the greater indie narrative.

And I think that dive, like when they do come back, they're, I don't know if they're like bigger than they seem, but they're definitely bigger than, I guess, the way they're talked about. And I think you can group them in with a band like nothing who, you know, they're going to be celebrating the 10 year anniversary of their first album, guilty of everything, which I probably would want to take a mulligan on as far as like, you know, pan reviews. Yeah, I think that I'm excited. Like if there's been a lot of announcements of, you know, Q1, 2024 mid-2010s indie bands coming back, Future Islands, Cloud Nothings, MDMT, which I'll listen to them all for sure. But this is one that I'm like legit excited about. I really think that dive is due, if not to get the esteem that they've always deserved, but like kind of a re-appreciation.

of them. Yeah, and again, getting back to the shoe gaze thing, I think you're totally right. Shoegays, Dream Pop, as you put it, Recession, Averse, genres, they just seem to always have an audience and to perpetuate like a new generation of bands every couple of years. Again, what I think separates dive from the pack, is that there are a lot of bands, especially now, who are plugging into that shoe gaze vibe, and they don't really have the songs that make them memorable. Like, the thing with Shoe Gays is that, like, a lot of of these bands, I think they're, they're very listenable at first, the first time you put them on, you kind of know what they're doing. It can, it's a very seductive type aesthetic. So you can

like them at first, but then they tend to sort of drift away into the ether, like pretty quickly. And I think with Dive, again, like their records, when you revisit them, I think even Ocean, like, you're right, like, that was a record that got a lot of hype at the time. And I think that adversely affected the reception to is the Azar. I think that. think they were people that felt like, oh, these guys don't deserve all the write-ups that they got early in the career, so we're going to take it out on this record, even though that's a much better album, I think, than Ocean. Yeah.

Even though I like Ocean quite a bit. But anyway, I think, like, what really comes through on that live record I was talking about, which you can get on band camp. I don't think it's on any other streaming platform. But it's a pretty stripped-down performance. I think there's, it's like, like, a lot of it is, like, unplugged. I think it might technically be unplugged, but it doesn't really sound like that. I don't know.

It's definitely like less reverby and less atmospheric than their records are, which really puts the focus on the songs. And it's like, oh, yeah, these songs just hold up. Like they're really well-written songs. And this band, I think, already has, like a really good songbook that can make a live record come across so well. Yeah, good news. It is on Apple Music at the very least. then. They include loose ends, which is one of my favorite songs from Is The Izzar. And I also think, though, that, you know, the reason that they may have been dismissed a bit in between Ocean and Is The Azar is that, like, Zach was very much a indie celebrity at the time. You know, I interviewed them in 2013, and it was just a, like, one of the most wild ones I've ever done. But it seems like they're in a much, much, much better place now.

So, you know, I'm really happy about that. Well, this is a good transition into our next topic here because Dive, talking about them now, again, like weirdly as a legacy band, which I can't fully wrap my head around because they still seem like a young band to me, but they've been around, you know, for over a decade, plugging into that shoegaze aesthetic. We now have, like, a new band that we're both excited about that is carrying the 12. torch. Although they're a new band but also like a veteran band at the same time. They're called Hotline T&T. They have a new album out today. It's called Cartwheel.

Ian, you actually reviewed this album for Pitchfork. I believe the review is up today and it got a best new music. And I want to talk about that with you a little bit. I'm a little surprised that Pitchfork gave us the best new music. It doesn't seem like the kind of album that they'd be into necessarily. But it's definitely

an album that we would be into. This is like an indie cast album maybe of the year. It's like very much in the overlap between what you and I are interested in. I mean, from my perspective, we'll just start with the band's front man,

Will Anderson. He was born in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, which is right next to O'Claer. I used to drive the Chippewa Falls to drop off the layout for the newspaper, my college paper, when I was the editor-in-chief. Wow.

Our press was in Chippewa-Falls. So, like, I know that town pretty well. And that's about 90 minutes from where I live now. He doesn't live there anymore, but still, he's a Wisconsin indie rocker, which makes me just predisposed to want to support him. Apparently, he used to live in the same neighborhood as Braddonfield Cook, who are both Wisconsin indie rock legends.

They were in Megafon. They were in DeArmond Edison with Justin Vernon. both are much sought after musicians and producers now in the indie world. So you have that local connection for me. Will Anderson is 34 years old. He's been in the scene for a while. He used to be in a band called Weed that had a small following, but it's pretty influential, like in that small circle of musicians.

So he has like a Robert Pollard thing too, where he's like a mid-30s guy. now starting to kind of have a brush with indie fame, so that's great. He's also into sports. This is a big thing in a lot of profiles about this band, that this guy's a huge sports fan. So if you listen to our show, he would enjoy sports cast. That would be cool, too.

But look, I haven't even talked about the music yet in this record. Just talk about all the biographical things. But, like, when I listen to this record, my thought is that it reminds me of, like, a Japan droids record if they were into Siamese Dream and not the replacements and Bruce Springsteen or if they were more into that kind of thing along with like other kind of 90s

alternative rock than like more of the sort of like 80s indie rock type thing like this is just like a big beautiful sounding record very catchy very alternative rock again it has that shoe gaze thing but I think unlike a lot of of new shoegays groups who tend to be more about this sort of like ethereal like floaty sound. This has like a real like propulsion to it.

And it also just has really catchy, beautiful songs that you could imagine being played on 120 minutes like in 1995. Again, not the kind of record that I would expect pitch for to endorse in 2023. But maybe this is like the best version of that kind of record. like even people who might not totally love this kind of thing, you can't really deny that this record is really good. Yeah, it's funny we link them to dive because when I first got wind of Hotline T&T, it reminded me of what I initially thought about dive

when they were still like, when the name was still spelled like D-I-V-E. I just figured, oh, this is just some Brooklyn bullshit. You know, it's something that's being hyped up because NYC music writers are hanging out with them. content prior to investigation, always a barrier to actually enjoying music. But turns out they're really fucking good, you know, and I didn't know any of that stuff beforehand about, like,

Will, making an, like, you know, they stream Mario Kart on Twitch. You know, he writes an NBA zine. And it's funny because, like, whenever I read an interview with Will Anderson, he reminds me in a way of, like, you know, what I see a lot, like, MJ Lenderman and, like, Molly from, always and one of a tricks point never like they're being asked questions about like

music process and like guitars and they're dying to talk about basketball instead you know like we we need grantlin like we got like RIP Grantland but yeah this record is awesome because you know for many reasons but I assume Hotline T&T based on like the circles in which they ran was kind of doing the either

you know heavy shoe gaze like has been a God, like one of the most artistically bankrupt, but thriving subgenres in existence. Like, I've heard enough deaf tones and a hum rip-off to last me five lifetimes. And similarly, I think, you know, I like Spirit of the Beehive, but I feel like their influence has, you know, made a lot of bands who write catchy songs, try to do, like, weird kind of experimental noise stuff that just, like, you can't do as well as Spirit and the spirit of the Beehive. but this is an interesting record because sugar, I think, is a very, very undervalued band in this realm.

And also, like Will Anderson, he's a Minneapolis guy. I think his parents grew up there. He lived there for a while. And there's a lot of copper blue in this album. I think it's because, you know, obviously the first single I thought you'd change sounds like helpless. But also if I can't change your mind. And, yeah, it's not a, it's a record that kind of stands. out because it's so against the narrative. I think that was true with Japan droids when they first

came out, you know, like if we're going to think about it in the terms of it. And I hate to be this reductive about it, but it's a dudes rock record, not in the sense that it's just for dudes, but it's like, you know, it's about like heartbreak and, you know, feeling like a loser, but like really being into the replacements. And I just, I cannot not bring this up, but I am very, very wary of being into these bands after having, you know, being suckered by beach slang. I knew I was being suckered, but like I'm like, I bought into it anyway. I don't think that's happening here. But yeah, that's like my greatest trauma as a music writer, like being suckered, knowing I was being suckered and riding with it anyway and like, you know, just feeling I'll never live that one down.

Yeah, I mean, they're not as on the noses because. Slang was and like you can't be as on the nose as beach yeah and like Will Anderson doesn't have that like messianic like rock guy type vibe that the beach slang dude had I mean I think that's the big difference I mean and like the replacements thing like I don't pick up on that as much I mean I think it's you can draw that line because of like where Will Anderson is from but again like I get more of like the 90s alt rock thing from this record and you mentioned sugar copper blue And I'm just going to throw Siamese dream out there again.

I think that that record has just become such a common touchdown now for a lot of indie rock bands. You know, you say it's like against the narrative. I actually feel like you can draw a line what's going on in this record to like the Wednesday record. Ratsaw God, maybe not so much lyrically, but I think sonically there's some things going on there. And I know that those bands are touring together, right? Friends with each other. Yeah. So I do think that there are more and more bands that are actually gaining traction with audiences as well as critics that are drawing on like that kind of aesthetic, that like big 90s rock thing.

So yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I'm curious to see if that actually becomes like a real trend. I mean, it kind of feels like one already in a weird way. I don't know. I want to see like how this plays out. you know, like next year. I mean, because we've talked about this,

it seemed like, you know, coming out of the pandemic, and even before the pandemic, we were very much hearing a lot of, like, indie music people that it was like very quiet, very insular sounding type records. And I like a lot of those records, but I think it definitely started to play itself out, especially as we came out of the pandemic.

And it felt like, okay, let's get something a little louder and a little more boisterous. And I think we've been moving in that, that direction. And this record feels like it's part of that. Yeah, and maybe if this trend continues into 2024, Billy Corgan will finally make Rolling Stones' greatest 100 guitar, greatest out 250 guitarist list. Oh, I love that you're still resentful about that. This is great. We're still doing callbacks to that. Okay, so we've been pretty positive in this episode so far. You know, we're talking about dive, really loving that band, excited about whatever they're going to be doing next, hopefully a new

album. We both really love this hotline T&T record. We were a little hard on the Beatles, but you know, I think we're, you know, we're fine with that song. We don't hate it. We don't, you know, we're good with it. We're, you know, go with God. If you want to hear a new Beatles song, that's great. It's now time to be a little negative here. Or at least to talk about the possibility of being negative. Because, you know, look, on this show, we strive, I think, to be as close to the conversation that you and I have in our DMs. You know, like what we say to each other in private, we want to get as close as we can get to that in this show.

Of course, you can't go 100% like the DMs because there's state secrets that are shared in the DMs, there's catiness, there's pettiness. You don't want to air that publicly, but you want to get, you know, within 85 to 90% of that. but I want to talk about the 10 to 15% that doesn't get in. Because there's a band that I know I hate. I hate this band.

I'm pretty sure you don't like them either. I don't know if you use the word hate. Would you use the word hate with this band? I think we're going to kind of get into this, but it's like, I don't know if I could hate a band unless they, like, are imposing upon my life in a way that's oppressive. Like, this is a band that I can. can ignore. I mean, they see, they're a band that I, I can't, well, they seem to pop up anytime I

accidentally click on the 4U tab. So they, they're like one of those, they're like the version of like those people on Twitter who you swear to God you've muted, but they somehow like pop up or they're the version of that, someone you do mute, but they end up in your DMs like, get a load of this asshole. So for me, I would say that the music that this band makes, aesthetically, it makes my skin crawl. Oh, it's awful. Like, it really bothers me. And it bothers me so much that I kind of love this band because I hate them so much.

Like, I haven't disliked a band this much in a while. Like, everything they do, it's just the opposite of what I like. And the thing is, is that this band, they, like, as you just, alluded to, they have like a decent size profile at the moment. They're not hugely popular by any means. They haven't quite reached the level of what I would call

critical acclaim. They have writers who like them and who have written about them. But they're currently in a position where I would say, and this is not to brag or anything, I think it's just true, that like you or I are more well known in

indie circles than this band. You know, and again, that's not But it's true. And what that's created is this feeling for me that I can't criticize them publicly yet because they're not well-known enough yet. And I want to get into this with you because this presents a very interesting dilemma to me. Because if you look at this on the macro level, my rationale, I think, explains why there aren't a lot of critical reviews anymore. because I think writers generally feel like I don't really want to rip on like an artist that is

maybe kind of marginal in terms of their public profile. It doesn't seem like it's worth it. It maybe even seems mean-spirited to criticize a group or an artist that just doesn't have a big audience yet. And on a macro level, I think that that's a problem. I think that there ought to be more pans. There ought to be more criticism. I don't think it's necessarily a justification to not criticize something because it doesn't have a huge audience.

But on a micro level, like on the personal level, I can totally justify feeling that way. It feels right to me. It feels like for just my own personal time, like I don't really want to pick on an artist that I feel like doesn't have that no one else is really talking about. Or if I talked about them on this show, you know, most of it. people wouldn't know who I was talking about. You know, like on a personal level, that seems like maybe a waste of time. So I want to get your take on this because I find myself in this very weird situation. And by the way, I'm not going to name this band.

If you haven't figured that out yet, we're not going to name this band. At least not yet. We may end up talking about them at the future. But I'm in this weird situation now where this band whose music I despise, I want them to be more popular. So then I can criticize them. I want more critics to like this band so then I can publicly rip them. It seems like a very odd position to be in.

Like I'm kind of cheering for this band I can't stand. Do you relate to this at all? And am I wrong to feel this way? Because again, like on the big level, I think it's, I'm not comfortable feeling this way. I think this is contributing to something I don't really like. But that's how these things happen. We all make our own decisions. and the decisions that you make as a writer or as a critic,

they make sense to you, but then other people make the same decision and then collectively it kind of results in something that maybe isn't great. Yeah, right before we recorded, like the night before, I randomly saw this pan review of Shabazz Palaces. We want to talk about, like, you know, mid-2010s, remember some guys. And, you know, I just love seeing people get, worked up about a band that like you would never or an artist that you never think that someone would

go out of their way to diss that hard and it just brings up a point that you were talking about that band is more famous than the band we're talking about by the way or at least that band has a history of critical claim so maybe it would make sense to try to market correct that a little bit yeah shabaz palace is the only band i saw or the only artist i saw a pitchfork festival where there was like a fight in the audience during their set but neither here nor there um But this kind of brings up a point that we've maybe alluded to in previous episodes. It's not like the pan review has disappeared, but it's more the pan review of a band that isn't particularly, like, popular. It's like, you know, no one really gives a shit when like Ed Sheeran or Lil Yadi gets a pan.

I mean, people care, but it's like kind of part for the course. But, you know, when you saw like foxing their last album get like a 6.0, that became like a three-day controversy. So there is this, I don't know if it's like an unwritten rule of music criticism these days about like punching down. If it's seen as punching down to not do it. And that is, I mean, that used to be like my bread and butter. I'm not going to lie. And nowadays that I find myself in closer quarters with, you know, not just the bands, but labels, PR. You really see the impact, like the disproportionate impact, a negative review can have on a band who may not.

have the audience to sustain it because yeah i've seen it where um you know it's funny uh the guy from the dare uh yeah i i did a 6.0 like pan review of his previous band turtleneck and that really fucked things up for that you know um so i see that but with a band like this like it's a question of like how popular does a band need to be in order for you to like make fun of them publicly i get the feeling you mentioned that like we're more we might be more well known in any circles. I feel like this band is like trying to will a negative like pitchfork review into existence. You know what I'm saying? Because I feel like this is the sort of band that A cares about that stuff and would use that in like an airborne toxic event sort of way to like rally their fans around

them. But you know, in general, I find myself a lot less negative publicly than I used to be. Like, I made a joke about the national the other day, you know, in relation to the James Hardin trade, to the clippers. And even that felt kind of icky, you know? Even, like, I try not to be negative if, like, I get the sense that, like, either A, the band will see it or, you know, fans of the band might see it. That's what the DMs are for. And now with circles disappearing, though, I mean, you used to get some really good stuff on circles. Now you just got to be relying upon, you know, whether or not someone's going to. to do an alt account, which, you know, that's, that's dicey territory. So, um, yeah, I think that

there's no great answer to it. I wish, uh, what I do is I just hope someone else does it. So I can like get that secondhand smoke. You know what I'm saying? Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, because I just want to be clear, like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not worried about like fans or anything. I, I, I don't really care about that. I, that's not what gives me pause. it is more of what you were saying before feeling like am I going to adversely affect an artist's career? And maybe that's being egotistical.

I feel a little stupid saying that out loud because it's like how important is my opinion or anyone's opinion on a band? I mean, that seems a little big-headed to say, but it is true. I think sometimes that if a band is starting out and they get hit too early,

I think that can have an adverse effect. And I wouldn't want to feel as much as I don't like this band. I don't want anything I would write to hurt their career. You know, there is a thing, I think, where when you write something, you want to feel, like, if you're going to write something critical, you want to feel like, well, first, you want to feel like this is sincere to how you feel. Like, you're not just doing it to get attention. You're doing it because this is a reflection of your honest opinion, and you feel like it's

worth stating, and you feel like it's thoughtful. Like, you're not just doing it as a joke, but you're doing it because you feel like, well, this is pertinent conversation about this artist that other people are talking about. There is that sense, though, too, of feeling like, oh, maybe they deserve it. And the deserved it thing, I think, comes from an artist reaching a certain level of success and maybe a claim where you feel like a lot of people are saying this is great and someone needs to stand up and say it's not great. But at the same time, you saying it's not great,

it's not going to like kill their career it's just going to open up the conversation about an artist where maybe it feels a little one-sided I think that that is like the sweet spot that you're aiming for with this sort of thing so I don't know that's what I'm waiting for I'm hoping that this band who again I can't stand and that you and I have made fun of many times

in the DMs I want them to take off I want them to be popular and critically acclaimed so then I feel justified in writing a think piece where I take them the task. So that's where I'm at right now. At times you want a band, like we've talked about, you know, certain bands up top like Dive or Empty Country.

Like we want bands to be popular because it would feel validating. And at the same time, you want other bands who, like, you know that's like, this is fucking garbage. Like there can be validation happening in that as well. It's just that,

I guess, you know, in my advanced age and a desire to not have as much negativity surrounding me. I'm just hoping somebody else does it. Well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I don't know. But we just spent a long time talking about a band we didn't name.

I'm here. So that'll be fun. Blind item indie cast. I love it. Blind item. So let's get to our mailbag segment. Thank you all for writing in to us. It's always great to hear from our listeners.

A very short letter this week. Do you want to read this one, Ian? Yes. So this comes from Henry from Brooklyn. I'm assuming it's Brooklyn, New York. And the question is, it's not really a question, it's more of a statement. Actually, it's a question. Yay or nay, they might be giants.

Wow. Here we go. So, I surprised myself while trying to figure out an answer for this. I Googled they might be giants. And something I wrote about They Might Be Giants came up in the Google search. Apparently I profiled this band for Grantland. RIP Grantland. Back in like 2015. which I completely forgot about.

But what I wrote in there is actually reflective of my original thoughts about this band, which was that my original thoughts about this band now after reading this question, which was that this was a band that I remember from middle school in the early 90s.

I definitely had a friend who had the album Flood, which I think is maybe their most popular record, 1991. That one was like, I think I went platinum or something. Yeah, and that's a big record. Particle Man. is on that record and Istanbul

La Constantinople is on that record other songs I can't remember but I remember Particle Man and then this same friend was still into them on the next record which was Apollo 18 I believe is the name of that record

or it might be Apollo 13 I think it's Apollo 18 I'll Google this when it's your turn to talk what's funny to me about they might be giants is that people who maybe aren't that familiar with them often group them together with ween. I feel like people want to

say that they're in the same category and maybe you can group them together broadly as like kind of novelty sounding bands from the 90s. I mean, I'm a much bigger wean fan that I am They Might Be Giants fan and I think just in terms of

like the audience they attract, it's very different. I've actually seen they might be Giants live and it's a very wholesome audience. You know, you got, like, parents, you got kids, you know, very kind people, very well-behaved. Whereas Wien's audience, and I say this with affection, drugies and dirtbags in the Wien audience. And it's actually, like, gotten a little straighter in more recent years. Like, when I saw them in the aughts, it was like Altamont in the audience, like every show I went to. Very dark vibes.

Great band, but yeah, very dark vibes around that band. But, you know, as the band themselves have clearly. cleaned up. I think the audience has cleaned up a little bit as well. But yeah, I'm going to say yay on they might be giants. Not a huge fan, but I appreciate what they do. I have good memories of listening to them at my friend's house and middle school in 1992. So yeah, I'll give them a yay. Yeah, I know a lot of people, like of our age, heard about they might be giants due to hearing like Constantinople. I think Particle Man was on Tiny Tune Adventures as well. And, you know, that's kind of been my, for a very long time, at least until I saw Flood or Lincoln on indie rock best

albums of the A's list. I assume they were like a joke band, a cartoon band. Like, I could see the Ween comparison. I think the major difference is that, you know, they might be giants would never do songs like Touch My Tudor or like piss up a rope. They seem a lot more family friendly than Ween. although, you know, people who are into Ween have kids now. But look, I realize I'm saying this as someone who's written positively about like multiple modern baseball albums. But I just like have such an instantaneous revulsion to the idea of listening to this nerd-ass shit. I say that like not that like, oh, I'm like one of the jocks, right, beating up the people who listen to They Might Be giants. In reality, I probably should have been a They Might Be Giants fan early on.

on. And I know a lot of people whose taste I trust, you know, bringing up this band as someone they really like. I saw like both, you know, Dylan from Spirit Night and Shannon from awake, but still in bed, like in the past week, tweeting out songs that they might be giants they like. Look, I know, again, content prior to investigation keeps a man in everlasting ignorance. But, you know, content prior to investigation also saves some time. You got to have priorities. I I definitely missed the window and I have no interest in, you know, revising my take on this band. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first?

All right, so probably not a surprise as to what my choice is going to be. I have an interview with this band running, I think today on Uprocks, it is the new Empty Country album titled Empty Country 2. It is the, you know, I guess it's new, but it's been a band that's been around for like five years. But it's the more recent project of prior indie cast, phase, symbols, the guitar. Joe D'Agostino, the leader of the band, kind of mentored by David Berman right before his death in 2019. And it takes up the mantle of these character-driven story songs about like weird, dirty America. But the music is much more widescreen. There's a lot more Springsteen.

He brought up Street Hassel era Lou Reed as an influence. And there's a 13-minute song at the end called Cool S about that S that you draw in school. And I think it's stronger overall than the first, which was a great record that got really fucked over in a lot of ways by the pandemic. Like first it was on tiny engines and that record label folded and then it came out March 20th, 2020. But, you know, I just want to praise this, Alan, because so much of the way we've talked about Symbol D's guitar is an empty country is about, we've taken ourselves to task on past episodes about describing bands like, they should be bigger, like how come they're not as beloved as they should be?

And I know that's like a terrible sales pitch. And I think Joe's kind of come to terms with, you know, this band's not going to make him famous. It's not going to make up for, you know, the bad rap that was given to Symbols E guitar. That being said, it's just a fantastic, it's like straight down the middle, then diagram indie cast stuff. It's a little bit emo, but like very largely Americana Rock, Heartland, big songs, saxophones, harmonicas, weirdo character studies about like drag queens and like boat pilots.

Empty country too. Highly recommended. So I want to talk about a band from Philadelphia called Golden Apples. They put out a record at the end of October called Banana Sugar Fire. That's all one word. Banana Sugar Fire. And look, I'm tempted to compare this band to Apples and Stereo, which I feel like is a lazy comparison because they both have apples in the title.

But I do think that the idea of like an Elephant Six band with like really loud guitars and like bubble gum melodies, which is what apples and stereo is, I think that definitely applies to Golden Apples. If you aren't a fan of the more rock-oriented side of the Elephant Sixth Tree as opposed to the more sort of mind-bending psychedelic side, this is going to be a record that you're really going to enjoy. I would also say that if you're a fan of a band that I've talked about on this show, that's awesome from Philadelphia, the band's second grade, I think Golden Apples also slots in

there quite comfortably as another just great melodic power pop type band. the kind of band that I was talking about earlier making the Beatles song. Like I could see Golden Apples recording now and then and sounding a lot like the Beatles do on that track or the Beatles, I'll put them in quotes. But anyway, this is a really good record. Again, Elephant Six fans rejoice.

You're going to like it. It's called Banana Sugar Fire. It's by Golden Apples. Really good record. We've now reached a part of our episode where we end. This is over. Thank you all for listening.

We'll be back with more news. and reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix tape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.