Indiecast - The Song Of The Summer vs. Patio Music

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Every summer, the music press tries to figure out the song of the summer. For Steven, this can be a tedious exercise that feels like one of those fake holidays made up by greeting card companies to sell product. Nevertheless, the discourse is welcome during an otherwise dead time of the year. So Steven and Ian are getting down to the task this week of determining the defining track of the season.Before that, the guys discuss the latest dust-up between musicians and music critics to unfold online. What is at the heart of this conflict, and can it ever be resolved? Also, there's a conversation about memorable review-related feuds that Steven and Ian have had over the years, including the time that Donald Glover threatened to beat Ian up. (Steven never tires of hearing this story.)Along with talking about the song of the summer, Steven and Ian also talk about patio music, a concept that has particularly interested Steven during the summer months. What makes a good patio music album? And is it possible to appreciate this concept if (like Ian) you don't have a patio and live in a place where it's always warm?In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the new release from Spirit Night while Steven recommends an overlooked album from 2022 by Greg Freeman.New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 150 and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about musicians feuding with music critics, The Song of the Summer, and patio music. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's still waiting for Donald Glover to track him down at the gym.

Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you? I think that our audience needs. a little bit of context for that statement. By the way, though, bodybuilder's gym, a fixture of Silver Lake no longer is where it is. I'd actually see quite a few musicians at that gym.

The first day I went to Bodybuilders when I moved to my new place. And Silver Lake, I saw Pat and Oswald on the treadmill next to me. And I'm like, it's like, you know, shout out, a funny fucking dude, but like,

notoriously, like, not a picture of like being a jacked entertainment dude. So I'm like, Yeah, this is the place for me. But eventually I would see, like, you know, guys from Marvel movies, guys from popular black gays metal groups, you know, hint, hint. Wow.

Yeah, it was an interesting spot given the fact that it was like the size of a postage stamp. But what you're referring to, you know, Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, you know, intimating to Vice Magazine that he see me at the gym and he might kick my ass. Like, that's a real thing. because there was a day where I'm like, I'm like, is that fucking him? And apparently it was. And this is related to like my favorite bit of Ian Cohen. Professional trivia is your 1.6 review of Childish Gambino's Camp, which, what was that?

That was 2011. I remember this. I have very distinct memories because like I shit you not. That was, that happened in like December. and the day that review ran, there was like this weird storm power outage throughout Los Angeles. So like I never, I didn't see like any of the initial hubbub like during that day.

It was like that woman who like posted that terrible tweet about going to Africa on a plane and when she gets off the plane. It's like the internet's going nuts. Not as bad as that, but that was my version of it. So you're saying that your review was so startling that it actually not. knocked out the power grid in Southern California. Like it caused a blackout.

There was that much consternation about your view of lightly comic backpack wrap that California just couldn't take it. And people were sitting in darkness and wondering, I started reading this review. I just saw the score. I wonder how Ian's going to justify this. And now our powers out. I'm not going to know for hours how Ian supported the score. which is totally outrageous of this review of Canada.

I broke the internet and won the internet, sir. By the way, we promised to talk about patio music and song of the summer, and here we are re-litigating music writer Beath from the dead of winter in 2011. Love it, love it, love it. Our show fucking rules. Well, I could talk about that for hours. Me too. I could do a multi-episode arc on the 2011 Childish Gambino review.

we have to talk about this this week because there's been some music critic musician feuds yet again happening and this happened after we recorded last week this was actually like a last week story i think this was on friday that this went down i think it was like yeah it was either friday or like thursday night or like Thursday morning like basically um like right after we recorded yeah it was it or maybe as we were were recording this was on folding. There was a review that ran in pitchfork of the Bethany Costantino album which I cannot remember the title of right now. Do you remember the title of this album?

Like the fact that I can't, I think it's like natural disaster. Yes. That's it. God, thank God I got it fucking right. I don't want to like prolong this beef by because like I think that was like one of the foundational issues is that like her name was spelled wrong which also happened to

unknown mortal orchestra this year. Like they got like kind of a midling review and that was the kind of gotcha moment. Like this happened so many times where it's like how can you trust the opinions when you couldn't even get my name right? It's like well. Well, and granted it's not a good look. If you're going to, uh, especially if you're going to take umbrage with the lyrical content of an album and then you misspell the name.

Preferably you don't want to do that. It doesn't necessarily negate the criticism. But at any rate, uh, the, The album got a 5.9 review. Bethany Costantino goes online, and she does the thing where she says, I'm not upset about this. I'm laughing about it. However, I am doing a multi-tweet thread about it, but I'm not upset about it.

And this kicked off a dialogue about music critics and musicians. He had Jenny Lewis chiming in saying, I think, I believe she said, fuck pitchfork was her quote. And she said, you know, they've been ruining. my release dates for the last 20 years. And there were people... I need the fact chat. I need a citation needed for that.

Well, I feel like she's an artist. I feel like her most pivotal records, I feel like were slagged at the time. And then they were praised later on. I mean, not by me, but I think my pitchfork. Yeah, you know how I am with the execution of all things, which I'm going to look it up right here. 2003, it got a 7.5, which, you know,

that, yeah, not, not, not, not great, but, oh, yeah, they really did not like under the black light. All right, well, fair enough. Rabbit for Coat, my favorite album of 2006, you can go back. Yeah. Wow. Why is that so shocking? Because of the Hold Steady released an album that year. Like, you know, that was, they released the album that I like.

of theirs. Boys and Girls in America. Yeah. That was up there for me. But, you know, Rabbit for Coat is like, that was my album of 06. That was like listening to it every day.

That's still like a favorite of mine. That's a great record. Okay. I actually prefer her solo work, I think, to Riloh-Kiley. And I don't know if that's controversial. You gave like a little skeptical, mm there.

So I assume that you don't agree with that. Well, is that a controversial take? I think nowadays that I'm like, because I think that nowadays, There was this whole dialogue that I was a part of where your opinion that like Jenny Lewis's solo work is superior to Riloh-Kiley's is like kind of the going theory because that's just people's ways to, you know, throw shots at Blake Senate. It's not, it's no shots at him. I think, well, that's how people kind of justify it because, you know, it's like.

Well, no, it's just because she's older and she's like a better songwriter. That's why I think that's better. I'm not saying that's your move. I'm not saying Rilkeye L'I. is shit. I like Riala Kiley a lot. I just, the albums that I love the most that she has made are on her own. It is no shot at Blake's Senate or anyone else in Riloh Kiley.

Shout to the elective. Why does there have to be some ulterior motive? This is such a modern day thing that you can't just like something or dislike something. It's got to be like a multi-layered thing. It's got to be, I like this thing because I actually hate this thing. You could dislike something. I just like the records. Yeah.

I mean, I was about to like throw an Uncle Murdo reference in there, but I think it's, you know, just why we arguing anyway. Oh, I forgot it's summertime. Maybe people are just like cooped up. Maybe we need, maybe they need a song of the summer to get them out of this like loop of, arguing over, you know, kind of rootsy, singer songwritery, L.A. stuff. I don't know. It's just so profoundly depressing to...

Well, let's... You're skipping ahead here. We don't even talk about song in the summer yet. Let's stay focused on this music critic, musician dynamic, because I think it is interesting what goes into play here. Because it just reminded me of how I've always felt about this, is that music... The musicians have...

I think they're totally justified in hating music, critics. Like if you're a musician and you resent music critics, I think it's lame when music critics try to say like, well, it's a bad look or, you know, you should have a thicker skin or you shouldn't respond to this stuff. They have a total right to respond. They have a total right to complain about reviews. I mean, I understand where they're coming from. I would also say that as a critic, I'm not writing for artists, I'm writing for listeners. And because of that, it requires a level of honesty that is going to be hurtful to the artist, inevitably. There's no getting around that. You know, I've seen people say that you should never write anything that you would

never say to a person's face. Wrong. Yeah, I think that's completely wrong, because we are conditioned to be polite in person. I would never, I wouldn't say like a quarter of the things that I've written to a person's face. Just because of social mores, it's very uncomfortable to tell people the truth. Like we lie to each other all the time. You know, with your wife or your friends, you know, you're never giving just the unvarnished truth because you would never get through life. You'd be like Larry David, but like the real life Larry David, like where it's not funny.

And I'm not rich enough to be that guy, so. Well, not even Larry David's like that in real life. You know, like he's a person in the world. You know, you can't survive if you're going to be just giving your opinion on everything. That's what makes writing so fun to read because in a way it's more real than reality. when you read someone's opinion, it's like, well, this is what they actually think, and you actually don't really hear that much in real life. But because of that unvarnished honesty, you know, it's totally justified for artists not to get into that.

And I can relate to it to some degree because I've been reviewed too now. Like I've written some books and most of my reviews, thankfully, have been positive, but I've gotten some negative snotty reviews. Like the most negative review I've ever gotten came from a place, where I used to work, which is the AV club. And the most hurtful thing about that review is that initially they didn't even note that I used to work there. Like there'd been so much turnover by then.

And it was only, you know, six years after I'd worked there. But there'd been so much turnover that no one remembered that I had been the music editor there for like, you know, a year and I'd worked five years before that. But, you know, at the same time, like there's literal AI bots now. A big club. So I can't take that too personally. They're doing data scraping AI. Like, I mean, we could talk about that, but damn, I really think you may have lost the battle, won the war on that one.

I want to ask you about this, though, about, like, run-ins that you've had. I mean, we were just talking about Donald Glover. Yeah. But I know you've had some other ones. And I found, like, in my own career, that, you know, you can write really negative reviews. And for the most part, you don't hear from the people, no matter how harsh it might be. But if you write for pitchfork, it seems much more likely that people are going to clap back at you. And like in my instance, in my personal experiences, like the clapbacks that I've had, almost all of them are related to pitchfork.

And there's just something about that site that is, I don't know, it's very enraging to our artists? I don't know what it is exactly. It was interesting with the Bethany Kosentino and Jenny Lewis conversation how the perception of pitchfork among a lot of artists is still locked in like the early aughts, you know, that they're like these indie snobs who are mean-spirited and out to get people. That doesn't really jive with like what pitchfork is now, like in any way, shape or form. So that always seems to come out though, like when people are upset at pitchfork, like, oh, you're pretentious, your indie snobs. I mean, I think that's an unfair characterization of the old pitchfork, but it's certainly

not true of the current pitchfork at all. But I don't know, like, I mean, because you've had a lot of these experiences, right? Oh, I have, yes. You've written for pitchfork for a long time. I mean, do you think there's something about pitchfork that is especially sort of provocative for artists that make them more likely to respond to a negative pitchfork review that and maybe a review somewhere else? Absolutely.

I mean, I've, God, I've written more reviews for that site than I think anyone in that site's history and I've had more, you know, artist clap back at me as well. I mean, yeah, I used to actively seek that shit out, like, back in the day. Did you? To an extent, we're out, because I'm like, yeah, this will be fun to write about. You know, this is, it's more fun to write about, like, an album that, like, sucks than one that, you know,

that is, you know, kind of okay. And, you know, and also this was back when it was like a lot, there was more separation between, you know, writers and artists and there wasn't as big of an audience. Like, we weren't having these kind of things. What would it be? It's like, you'd get, I don't know, the fucking airborne toxic event, dude, writing an open letter on an email blast. I'm still on this guy's email list, by the way.

I still get shit to this day. But you would get that and it would just be over, you know. You know, but like in 2012, 14, you know, I was starting to notice that like, I don't know, I was getting some, you know, getting some blowback. In a ways where I'm like, you start to see just how this impacts other people, whether it's like, you know, the artists or the publicist or whatever. It's like there's, it's much more condensed. It's much more like we're all in the. same like summer camp and so um you know i kind of got away from that but i just kind of want to point out like one of the um you know one of the more interesting uh components of this is that

when you see these type of meltdowns happen uh nowadays it's like always over like a six it's always over like a middling review not an outright pan like because this this was like very similar to like 2000, where the whole foxing shit went down. I mean, there,

I remember distinctly, there was like a Lord album out this week, like a device of death heaven album, and like that was the one that got the most, uh,

got the most controversy going on. By the way, I just think it's also funny that like this meltdown happened and like in the same week that the Travis Scott review happened. That was like the Barbenheimer of like music, writer,

Twitter beef because you see both kinds. Like the, The Travis Scott one was like, you know, the ones I used to experience when I wrote about rap albums like, oh, you fucking nerd. You look at the streaming numbers. You know, this guy's getting money. Like, you're living in your parents' basement. Like, you're getting, like, no pussy getting motherfucker.

Like, you'd get that. But that wasn't Travis Scott himself. No. And that's the big difference. You get, like, all, like, their little, like, dude Stan Armies clapping back at you. Which is what happened when, like, I, like, gave negative reviews, like, Kid Cuddy and whatnot. You get that kind of beef, which is like very 2011-ish.

You get like emails from 3 o'clock in the morning from a college email address. And then you get like the Bethany Cozantino ones where like the artist gets involved. And it's like discussion about, I don't know, like the concept of music criticism as a whole. It was really something for everyone this past week. Well, and it seemed like again that the like the drive of like the Bethany Cozantino thing, was that, well, pitchfork's just being mean-spirited for the sake of being mean-spirited. One thing, I don't think that review is being spirited. And two, I don't think that really critics now are motivated by that for many reasons,

but above all, that you're so disincentivized to be critical to people that have any kind of fan base. I mean, if you are going to write a negative review of a popular artist, you have to steal yourself for the kind of reaction that you were talking about. with Travis Scott, where you're going to have all of these, you know, the sort of like chuds of the internet crawling out of the sewer to like, you know, buddy up to Travis Scott and talk about like what a bad person you are for not liking this album. The most memorable experience I've had over a review and a musician calling me out on it, and I've written about this, I think I tweeted about it too, was it was over a pitchfork review. It was of the album Mirage Rock,

by Band of Horses. I wrote this. I think that was 2012 and I gave it a 4.0 or the site gave it a 4.0 and I wrote a negative review of it. And then,

flash forward 10 years later, I'm interviewing Ben Bridwell from Band of Horses and we're talking about every album that Band of Horses has made and when we get to Mirage Rock, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking,

well, there's no way he's going to remember my review. Like, there's no way he's going to care. And sure enough, we get to Mirage Rock and he takes out his phone and he shows me the review and he's like the worst fucking review I ever got in my life and he was good natured about it

and I think he actually agreed that that was not a good album like he felt like there were a lot of things going on with the record label and he wasn't in a good place so it wasn't even like he thought I was like off base

I think he did want to make me feel uncomfortable like a little bit and he did make me feel uncomfortable a little bit because again like you don't want to feel like you're just shitting on somebody, like when you're in person with them, even though as a critic sometimes it's your job to write negative things about someone's work.

But I think as a critic sometimes you feel like, well, I'm going to write this review and the artist isn't going to care or if they see it, they're going to forget about it instantly. And the fact is, is that the artist is the only one who will remember your review. Like, no one in the world gives a shit about. but my review of Mirage Rock from 2012, except the person who made the record. I will push back against that lightly because the other day,

like I'm not making this shit up. I got like a weird, angry email about a review. I wrote about Pond, which was like that kind of offshoot of, it was this offshoot of Taman Pala. You know what? It was actually because it was turned 10. I gave it a, I'm just looking back here,

5-9, and someone emailed me, it's like you fucked up with this hobo rocket review. So you got that's true. Yeah, you got the artist and like the most like degenerate pack of weirdos. No one in between. My favorite thing is when you have a take that becomes canon for people that want to discredit whatever your current take is. So for instance, let's say you write a review of an album and a person doesn't like your review. And in my case, they would say, well, yeah, the person who ranked state.

Stadium Arcadium as the worst red hot chili peppers album. Yeah, he would say this. You know, like me calling Stadium Arcadium, the worst Red Hat Chili Pepper's album is evidence that I'm an idiot. And that can be brought up at any time as like a character witness to discredit something I'm saying now, even if it's totally unrelated. Yeah. There's things like that too.

It's pretty funny. Yeah, I agree. And also, like, let's be real, is Stadium, Arcadium, the worst dry hot chili Pepper's record. Absolutely. Worse than on with you? Absolutely, because it's way longer. That's true.

It is so goddamn long. I reviewed that too on like stylus or something. Shout to stylist, the Grantland of the mid-level music publications. But yeah, that album is long as fuck. It's so long. The only defense of that album is I bought it at Best Buy when I was 14. okay that's the only defense i've seen of that it's all of these like young

marzbole to vines defense of course yeah and look i've got albums that i'll defend for the same reason so i'm not going to call that out but for all the people who have gone after me on my stadium arcadium opinion i just challenge you to listen to that album all in one sitting like if you can do that and enjoy it then fine you can call you can call you can call me out, but I am convinced that you cannot physically do that. It is so goddamn one. Song of the summer, hump-de-bump for the 17th straight year. Well, let's talk about Song of the Summer here. And I can't believe we're talking about song of the summer, by the way. I feel, I don't feel great that this is a conversation topic.

I mean, we are in August, and there's not a lot to talk about right now. But Song of the Summer is a topic that I've always been a little. resentful of being in the music critic industry. It seems like one of those holidays that greeting cards companies make up in order to sell product. It doesn't seem like a real thing to me, but I have to concede that there are instances where songs bubble up and they legitimately take over the culture and you can call them a song of the summer.

I was just thinking about that song Crazy by Narls Barkley. You remember that song? Speaking of 2006. Geez. Yeah. That was a song that I think you could legit call a song of the summer because it was everywhere. I remember going to Lalapalooza that year and like three or four artists like covered that song. It was like this, it was required to cover that song that year.

It was that huge. It's also a song that I hope to never hear again. Yeah. Good luck with that. And I don't think, I don't think I've heard that song in a long time. weirdly this is a weird tangent here and maybe this is the song of the summer i i swear this week i've heard walking in memphis by mark cone you know that song of course i know that song jewish excellence i've heard that song like every day where are you go where are you going

where are you hanging out and hearing this song i heard it at uh i had to take my uh i'd take my van to the mechanic yesterday. I heard it there. Okay. I heard it at a gas station. And I heard it at a Walgreens. That checks out. That tracks. Yeah. And look, I understand hearing that song in any one of those places

occasionally, but I just feel like three consecutive days. That's like a lot. I feel like I'm being stalked by walking. It's like stalking in Memphis, is what that song is. It's stalking me. Sequested and walking in Memphis. So I had a story here lined up talking about Song of the Summer candidates, and I have to Google it again. Okay, here it is, because I just wanted to run some of these down.

Where is it? It was from USA Today. I feel like that is a good... Yes. You think that's a trustworthy publication for breaking down the song of the summer? Yeah, if we're talking about Song of the Summer, like, we've got to... to go to USA Today, you know, the one publication that's not afraid to tell it like it is, that everything is okay. So, like, before I read these nominees for Song of the Summer,

according to USA Today, I mean, what do you think about Song of the Summer as a concept? Like, do you think it's a legit concept, or is this something that music writers have trumped up because it's a slow time of the year and they need something to talk about? Yeah, I, you know, we got to address what's, you know, I'm sure our listeners have figured out over the past couple weeks is that there has just been not a single notable album that had, well, you know, there was utopia, but like, otherwise, um, we got, we got to do something. And so, yeah, song of the summer in the same way that like the Grammys and, you know, Super Bowl, like halftime show, these are things that we can, you know, shape our year around. Uh, you know, I get the impulse to do that. Um, I think that once again, we are leaving out, flies got you where I want you as the song of the summer. By the way, there is a got you where I want you re-recorded on Spotify. That is a minute and 15 seconds longer than the original.

And the very moment we are done recording, I will listen to this and give a report back. But yeah, I mean, it's like, I looked at the candidates this year and I'm like, I'm vaguely familiar with all these artists, but it makes me feel like I'm on a different planet because I just don't really have. a summer. Also, I'm looking at this as the Taylor Swift tour comes to Los Angeles, which blots out every other story that anyone else at my work or in general is talking about. So I get it. I don't feel like I need to participate in it. It's real, I guess. I think the planet of the bass song was like the only one that I've seen like people organically talk about. But that's,

I don't know. I mean, like summer is more meaningful to you in your part of the country. though, right? Well, yeah, we're going to talk about patio music here in a minute because that's more personally meaningful to me. But let's talk about the song of the summer candidates according to USA Today. By the way, before I read these, I'm still hung up on this re-recorded version of Got You Where I Want You. That's a minute and 15 seconds longer than the original. Does that mean like the scat in the middle is longer? I will be extremely disappointed if there's any other result. And I'm looking at the cover, it's like the little thumbnail is 96-pack, and it looks, you know, graphic design is my passion.

It's got like a dude, it's got like a men's health cover shot of a guy with six-pack abs, which I think the flies would appreciate because they were very much a gym. We are definitely going to have to, like, if this release late gets any fucking weaker, we are going to have to do like a, you know, a live breakdown of holiday man. The gods of basketball. She's so huge Take you there It's

Word around towns They got bangers But yeah Let's hear what USA By the way What is the number one Song in the country Right now

Well we'll get to that Okay Cool Let's just read these nominees So according to USA today Nominees for Song of the Summer Mona Lisa by Dominic Fike

The Euphoria guy right Yeah And this song I believe is in the Spider-Man movie Which I saw And that's a very good movie I think I know that song.

I'm not going to play it right now to confirm, but I think I know it. Next nominee, One Margarita by That Chick Angel, Casa D and Steve Terrell. Not to be confused with three Marlinas, okay. No idea. No idea what that song is. Dance the Night by Duolipa. This is from the Barbie movie. Okay.

Do you remember, because you saw Barbie. I haven't seen Barbie yet. I saw it. Yeah, I mean, I remember. But it stands to reason that a Barbie song is going to be on this list. I do remember very distinctly the Taman Pala song, which I mean, Kevin Parker, man, just cash and checks. That guy is, like, so checked out from doing anything aside from, like, grabbing, you know, those. And I don't blame him, you know.

He's, like, on every shitty soundtrack. Him and Mark Ronson are, like, just, just, hey, man, like, who do we call? Mark Ronson. I would have preferred, you know, them trying to do... We're not going to, like, go off on a Barbie tangent, but they're, you know, this is a movie with, like, Stephen Malchmus and, like, Indigo girls, like, playing very substantial roles. So, you just have to wonder, like, who is this for, you know? Well, apparently got Dua Lipa in there, too, doing her thing.

Speaking of Dua, have you heard... I mean, this is like an old song now. That song she did with Elton John? from like a couple years ago Cold Cold Heart where it's just like a bunch of Elton John songs stitched together

have you heard this? I now know it exists I mean I hear levitating every other day at the gym so that's the old cold heart that's another song

I hear everywhere still like I'll just that song just stalks me that song and walking in Memphis can't get away from either one of us it's a duoleepa Mark Cone song Summer. Love it.

Next song, Fast Car, Luke Combs. Right. The Tracy Chapman cover. You know, we haven't talked about this. This cover has inspired a lot of discourse out there, which seems to be treating Tracy Chapman like she's not a hugely successful star and that this song isn't already really popular. I don't know. It was very weird conversation about this song. I don't know if you've been keeping up with that.

Vaguely aware of it. Very strange. Anyway, vampire by Olivia Rodriguez. Sure. There you go. And then as the number one candidate, Cruel Summer by Taylor Swift. And maybe that's it.

It's got Summer in the title. There's two songs in here that are, two songs that are not mentioned by USA Today. The first song is Try That in a Small Town by Jason Aldeen. And I'm wondering, does a song have to be good to be the song of the summer or does it just need to be culturally dominant because if it's the latter,

I think Aldine has to be in the conversation. Yeah, I can understand why people wouldn't want to put that in there. Same with like whatever Morgan Wallin song, I'm sure, is number one at the moment. Well, it's important to ask if we're going to treat this forensically. Yes. We got to bring that up. The other song that's not mentioned here is the actual song, of the summer and that is Rudolph by M.J. Lenderman.

Oh, yeah. That is the song of the summer as far as I'm concerned. You know, one thing I find kind of annoying about this conversation. I mean, I find many things annoying about it, but I don't like how narrowly defined a song of the summer is supposed to be. Like, it seems like it has to be a bop, you know, like a fun time, danceable bop. Which is fine. I mean, for the summer, that's what it is for a lot of people.

I think that should definitely be a component of the conversation. But what about those of us, and this is pointing ahead to our patio music conversation, who do not want to dance in the summer, but want to sit in a chair and chill. There needs to be more sit in a chair and chill song of the summer candidates. Because I feel like, and again, I might be speaking. for the 45-year-old dad rock population here, I'm happy to be their spokesperson.

I feel like that's an important part of summer as well. And it's not typically represented in the song of the summer conversation. No, no, I mean, for me, like, what is summer? But, like, being in a pool for, like, 10 minutes and, like, sitting in air conditioning for the next, like, 45. I mean, I feel like the last time I was, like, fully engaged, with like new summer music was like the chill wave summer of 2009 because I'm very much in the

same sort of boat right now which is to say like I summer to me is like more lazier and chill and you know I'm not going out to you know the club or like the the closest thing I had of the club these days is like you know what like I don't know pigment or whatever sort of uh you know place in North Park San Diego that's like playing vaguely like. like new music. Like that is where I interact with stuff. And so, um, yeah, I mean, there is just a real lack of patio music representation, uh, on song of the summer discourse. But, you know, like, I mean, when they say song of the summer, they don't really mean like song of the summer. It's just like, what is the most popular song right now? And again, isn't that, try that in a small town? Isn't that number

one right now? Um, I don't think so. I mean, it could be. I, I feel like we would hear about it. if it was. It's probably some Morgan Wallen song. Let's just go ahead and look at it. Last night, Morgan Wallin, number one, fast car, Luke Combs, number two, meltdown, Travis Scott, Cruel Summer, number five, or four. What are you looking at? I'm looking at Billboard Top 100. Okay, because I guess, I guess try that in a small town was number one last week. Yeah, I don't see it. These are mostly like Travis Scott songs. Well, I was looking at the New York Times. said last week it was the number one song. Well, there's, yeah, religiously, Bailey Zimmerman.

Yeah, these are a lot of Travis Scott songs with Billy Eilish. What was I made for? Right behind, Try That in a Small Town. Karma, number 20. Yeah, it's all Siza, it's all Travis Scott, it's all Barbie songs. And then at the top, two dudes from country. Yeah, that's great. Which is a great representation.

Yeah, this actually really does sum up where the culture is at right now. So what are we complaining about? I feel like the summer of this song of the summer discourse is like accurately assessed, uh, where we're at right now. Okay. Well, enough about the song of the summer. Let's talk about patio music. A concept that I think is more relevant to both. Well, I, this is something I want to actually ask you about it, because I know it's relevant to me. And we're talking about this because this summer on Twitter or I guess X, we're calling it X now. Be everything. We're calling it X because

Presumably because I'm getting How Do These Look? Tweets in my mentions all the time. I don't know if you're getting those. You know, like we're like like I get pornographic replies all the time. Oh yes. I do get those. Yeah.

And it just it's just like you look at the top. It says how do these look? And it's like a blurred photo. Yeah. I thought you were talking about people like sending you like pictures of their own patio. Oh no, no. Oh, no. Oh, that happens too.

but I'm just saying, I guess that's patio porn. I'm talking about like actual porn here. Oh yeah, I totally got those. Anyway, so I've been tweeting from my patio all summer long where I'm rocking CDs,

I'm rocking cassettes, and I'm taking photos of whatever I'm listening to, and I'm inducting albums into the patio music hall of fame. And people have been asking me, well, how do you define what patio music is? And really, the only definition is, patio music is music I'm listening to on my patio. That is what it is.

But there are certain qualities that define patio music and what we're going to get into that. But before we do, I'm curious for you, Ian, a person who lives in San Diego, who doesn't have a patio, who the weather's always warm there. So there's not the same urgency, perhaps, in the summertime, to get outside, to enjoy the warm weather months

because you know by November. November or December that you're going to be on lockdown for the next four or five months. Is this a relevant concept at all? Like, do you, like, when I tweet about this or talk about this, does it connect with you on any level? It connects with me for sure. And also, I don't want to put myself up as like a representation of like how people are in San Diego as a whole. No, you're Mr. San Diego. You're Mr. San Diego for me.

I got like, everyone is like you. I got like the back of my calf tattoo of the sublime sun, you know, we're going to end up talking about fucking slightly stupid again. This is whatever yet, but like the arc of Indycast always bends towards slightly stupid. But, you know, when I've been thinking about patio music, like, I think just in general about what my life has been like in California, where the vast majority of my music listening happens either in a car or in headphones at. the gym or like I work in an office, a communal office, so I'm listening to headphones as well. And so, you know, the style, my music listening experience and the music itself I listened to, I would describe that as like anti-social, you know, even stuff like you can think of like pop or like playboy carty or a hundred gecks where you get them in a room and like people are like going

apeshit. That's still not music you would play in a social gathering. And I think of patio music as being like social music you know that's like when when when when you're posting like your CDs or cassettes of like Gordon Lightfoot or whatever it is I'm like this reminds me of like the last time in my life where I actually had a patio which is to say in college and also like living in the south and so my concept of patio music um you know to this day I made like I made a mix in 2020 in June when I was going back to Virginia and it had you know stuff like Sun Vault and Drive-By Truckers and Whiskey Town and like that had new songs from like good looks, M.J. Lenderman, friendship, like stuff that you or me would post on, you know,

recommendation corner and the stuff in between like War on Drugs, My Morning Jacket. And the extended universe is like, you know, outlaw country or a lot of love it. Like that to me signifies patio music. Also, I don't listen to music that came out before 1995 apparently. So, I do have a grasp of it. It's just like I can't picture like a time in my life where I sit on a patio and listen to music and that's what I'm doing, you know, which it's like this thing that keeps the social, like the social component of whatever's you're doing at a simmer rather than a boil. It's like that's why it's not for me bad bunny or like ice spice or these songs which represent summer to so many other people. I mean, am I like way off base in my definition? finition of patio music.

Well, it's funny because you mentioned how you consider it a social kind of music. And for me, I'll say that if I'm on my patio listening to music, I'm either with my wife or I'm by myself. Like, I'm not with a group of people. Again, I'm a middle-aged man living in a burb. So I'm not having people over all the time. It is truly a time for after work contemplation, like where I am looking at the sun. I'm looking at the trees and I'm listening to music.

And it's funny because I've had people call me out on some of my choices sometimes. Like I've talked about like the latest Jason Isbell record being patio music. And someone was like, have you listened to the lyrics of this album? Like this is a dark album. Like why would you be partying to this? And I'm like, no, no, no. Patio music is not party music. It is patio music.

It is contemplation music. And for me, I mean, most of my favorite music is depressing lyrics plus good time and or anthemic music. Like that is the kind of music. It's my favorite kind of music. Like I just wrote a book about Born in the USA, which is one of the first albums I ever loved. And that's what that album is. And that's a good patio music record. I recently tweeted about the dive record is the azar as being a great patio music record.

That was an interesting choice to me. But the thing is, is that it was at dusk, and it's about the guitar tones on that record. Which are awesome. That is a vibe-sounding record. And yeah, it's dark, but that doesn't detract from the patio-ness for me, because, again, I was by myself listening to that, and I was taking in the nature of my backyard. And it was almost like a meditative type thing. I think patio music, in a way, it's similar to what you're talking about when you listen in the car, because you're you're by yourself, I imagine, because I love listening to music in the car too, because you

can play music really loud. It's a way to kind of get inside of music in a way that you can't. If you're listening to it at your house or on a laptop computer, it's like literally surrounding you. So it's a very powerful experience. With patio music, you're listening to it, but there's also sort of the outdoor ambience coming into it as well that adds another dimension to what you're listening to. And it's probably why, as you suggested, that the music that works best in this environment is sort of rootsy, sort of chugly, maybe a little Americana-ish. Classic rock definitely comes into the play.

I recently tweeted about Dyer Straits Brothers in Arms, which I think is a total patio music album, maybe like a platonic ideal of a patio music album. Is that the one with money for nothing on it? Oh yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Okay, got you. Money for nothing.

So far away. Walk of Life You got the title track Memibly used on the Americans Many people noted that Mark Knopfler's solo album From like what you hear was that Like it's what it is that

That was like we we played that We ran that shit back a lot Back in a college Oh man Oh man we should go deep on Knopfler At some point on this show Because he's got a lot of jams Sailing to Philadelphia

That's what it was Right That's a great record Yeah yeah With the airplane on the cover Yeah, that's the one. Yep. But, you know, what you were saying before about just making time to listen to music,

I think that's an important thing. I know for me, you know, especially like after work, I've been writing a lot. It's really nice to pour bourbon and stare at trees for a while and listening to music. I think that's a good mental health thing. Like, I'm not seeing a therapist right now, but I am seeing a patio. And like that is my therapy, I think, right now. That tends to re-center me, you know, and I'm hanging out with my wife or if I'm by myself. Like, it is a very sort of restorative practice for me.

Men will literally define patio music rather than going to therapy. No, but I guess. Well, exactly. It's much cheaper. It is much cheaper. And I think, you know, it clears away the gunk in my head. Yeah. I mean, there is a component.

of that for me. I mean, the closest, like, I, there are trees. When I'm looking at the window, I'm looking at trees right now. There are palm trees. Uh, and yeah, I, we're not like the type of household who like plays lazy shit on a Sunday morning. Like, that's just not how we get down. And when I get home from work, I'm like, probably walking my dog. And that is like maybe the kind of, uh, you know, experience I have the patio music. If it's like dark outside and it's still like warm enough. And yeah, I think when this whole discussion has brought up something that I've been thinking about a lot in my life, which is just like how I don't have a lot of time to sit and do nothing. And, you know, when I think of like patio music, particularly like the kind that I was describing before, you know, like all country and like dire straits, like stuff like that, it just reminds me of a time when I was reading this book like hanging out the power of killing time.

And it talks about like how people, you know, romanticize college because it would be a situation where you'd go to someone's like house or dorm room and you would just like hang out for three hours. You just like sit there while they were doing shit. And it's not an experience I have very much. Like I'm maybe like just trying to manifest a lazier time in my life. I'm also reading a book right now called laziness does not exist. Like I'm trying to have my own sort of patio rock renaissance. So maybe next week I'm like coming back and like ready. to like ready to rank Mark Knopfler solo projects.

That would be amazing. All right, well, let's get to our mailbag segment here. And if you want to hit us up, please do, because we don't have a ton of letters right now from our listeners. And I know it's kind of a slow time of the year. We haven't done a mailbag either for a few weeks. We always tend to run late. But hit us up.

We could actually go for an all mailbag episode here pretty soon. I think we're going to need that. So please head us up with, like, good conversation topics. That would be amazing. We're at Indycast Mailbag at gmail.com. You want to read this letter? Ian, we've actually held this letter for a few weeks. I don't know if it's, the timeliness tag might have gone away, but it's still a good topic nonetheless.

Yeah, this one does fit very well, given the subject matter. But, yeah, we've kicked this one down the road a little bit, but now it's come to settle. So, hi, Steve and Ian, big fan of the show. a very simple question for you following the 20th anniversary, which happened a few weeks ago, of youth and young manhood, kings of Leon, yay or nay. And I think it's important to mention that this is Dan from the UK. I feel like they have a different relationship with Kings of Leon than we do as Americans. But I'm very interested in what you think of Kings of Leon.

I mean, we've alluded to them on this show before, but I don't think we've really had a substantial discourse about a band, which was patio or Jason? at one point? What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking back on Indycast history. I think we talked about Kings of Leon when they had the NFT. You remember that? They had an NFT. I don't remember it, but I'm sure it happened. Of like their most recent

album, which I do not remember the title of, and I'm not convinced that actually exists. But, so yeah, my path with Kings of Leon, I think was fairly typical in that, you know, youth and young manhood came out, and it was like, oh, it's like the Southern Strokes. And I could totally get

behind that concept. And then the next record, aha shake heartbreak, really hit at home. Like, oh, this is a really good band. Like, I still like that record. And then you've got the next record, which has, like, the light bulb on the cover that's breaking.

Because the times, boy. Because the times. Which is where I started to fade a bit. And then they put out only by the night in 2008, and that just blows them up. That's the album with Sex on Fire and Use Somebody. And I had the attitude that like,

oh, these guys sold out. I'm not into this band anymore. Flash forward several years. And I actually came around on the albums I thought I didn't like. Because The Times actually is like one of my favorite records now by Kings of Leon.

And then only by the night is about half good, I think. But the songs I like, I actually like quite a bit where they decided that they were going to become U-2 for some reason. Like just the part of me that loves dumb, shiny rock, really connected with Kings of Leon. And then, you know, like the records after that just get more and more ridiculous. There's like literally an album called Mechanical Bull. Yes.

In their catalog. But I don't know. I have a weak spot for Kings of Leon. Again, I think there are records of theirs that I think are. legitimately good. Aha shake, heartbreak would be the one. I would say to people, if you want to check out this band, I think that's the best representation of what they do.

And then I'd go to Because of the Times. So I'm going to give them a yay. You know, I like what I like, and the stuff that isn't as good I still like because it feeds the id in me that like shiny, dumb radio rock. I would, we're not going to go over this now, but I would recommend that you look at their Grammy nomination history because between 2009 and 2012, they were like killing it in the Grammys.

You somebody won record of the year in 2010. I'm not making this shit up. It won Best Rock Song of the year in 2010, and it was nominated for Song of the Year. Sex on Fire, nominated for Best Rock Song, one best rock performance. And God, if you look at like this era, you have like, it's either you two or Bruce Springsteen

or Kings of Leon or there's a random Pearl Jam song thrown in there. Just fascinating. But yeah, you mentioned because of the times. This record in the office I worked at in 2007, like this was my walking in Memphis, you know, for you in 2023. There was this one guy I worked with who listened

to the first three songs on Because of the Times on repeat every single day for fucking months. I never once got to hear McFearless. And yeah, I wrote like a, I wrote a bunch of pans, speaking of which for of these guys at pitchfork in 2008 and 2012 or so, the follow wills never clasped back at me. They, I think they were, you know, occupied with other things. I think they were like one of the more, one of the only kind of rehab rock. bands of the 2010s or what have you. Yeah, I mean, I actually listened to Youth and Young

Manhood the other week for like the first time. It was kind of wild. What? I know. You never heard that record at the time? I never heard it. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about it is that like, it's the sort of record that I

would probably be in a better position to like at 23 than I am now. But like, I was also like way snobbier at 23. So I'm like, these guys are, these guys are fake, man. they're not real like the strokes. The one thing that really stood out to me about that record is, look, I'm not an expert in Backwoods Tennessee accents, but this, the worst accent I've ever heard on an album. Like, I don't know what this guy's doing with this voice,

but, you know, I'm not, like, opposed to, like, what they're doing in theory. I kind of want them to be, like, like, a dumbed down black crows or, like, 38 special or like the outfield. I want them to just write the 2000s Mississippi Queen but they decided they want to be like serious and you two at one point and then they're kind of like

muse in that sense where they're like dumb as shit but they're not any fun. See I disagree. I disagree with that because they wrote a song called Sex on Fire so like how serious are they? Like that coincides like with their U2 era. I mean, their next record is come around sundown. Oh, God.

Horrible record. There's a single from that record. There was like some weird race stuff going on in that video. Yeah, I don't know if it's like for radioactive. That was it. That was it. Where, yeah, like the lead singer or one of them, he's like raising his hands to the sky. Like he's like a Christ figure.

And there's like all of these like African American children. running around and it's like a white saviour type it's a very odd video completely booted like these guys were gone off yeah something or other yeah they were they were high in their own supply on that record for sure um I'm gonna shout out your friend though who are or the guy that played the first three songs from because of the times over and over again those are three great songs knocked up great song great kickoff like fucking on-co Paul. Like, I am like, you know, to this guy's credit, he did also play, like, he did this also with Feist the Reminder with, like, the first three songs. Nothing after, nothing after song four. We never got

to hear Seeline Woman. We never got to hear Past in My Present. Only I feel it all and so sorry. I want to see that guy when he finally went to the fourth track and heard McPhiless. Like, he must have just had his head blown off because that, that's another just like, good track from that record. I mean, I think Kings of Leon actually is a lot of fun. I think they're an enjoyable band, and I think if you don't take them seriously,

they become more enjoyable, which is why I came around on those sellout records after the first two. Because, again, there's not a lot of really popular rock bands from that era that just, you know, went as over the top as they did. And I have appreciation for them.

But yeah, I mean, again, I think aha shake heartbreak because of the times, two records I legitimately like. I think youth and young manhood is also pretty good. So yeah, I'm yay. Are you nay? I'm nay. I want to. And kind of the way like muse is a yay for me because like they're so clearly like dumb. Like I don't know if like Kings of Leon are enjoying themselves at all like throughout their.

sex on fire era. I think that's the difference. I think Muse, it's like, yeah, we're, like, we're dumb as shit, or like, they think they're brilliant, but either way, it's like, you could sort of see, like, why this, you know, it's guitar hero sort of fun. Like, Kings of Leon, like, they just make drugs look kind of bad. Like, they're, like, not, they just don't seem to be enjoying themselves in the way I feel like they should.

Well, you know, I will say, as someone who has seen the Kings of Leon documentary, you know, Documentary. Yeah, it's called Tala Hiney Sky, I believe it's how you pronounce it. I mean, that's not even a real place. I'm totally mispronouncing that, but yeah, it came out in 2011. Huh. And very entertaining documentary, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally, but it's a good watch.

I recommend it. It's a little unsung. But, yeah, if you want to see a young band that becomes extremely successful and how goes to their head and kind of ruins the band. That is a good movie to watch. It's only 87 minutes though. So it was also nominated for a Grammy. Well, do you want it to be longer?

Like, do you wish that movie was like three hours? I want the get back of like mechanical bull where they're just like banning about different arrangements for this song that I never heard or never will hear. I love, I love the complaint that the Kings of Leon documentary isn't long enough. No, you got to you got to jam it out. You gotta let these guys cook. I want to see them in all their, like, you know, drugged out glory. I trust, like, trust me as someone who has seen it, 87 minutes is the perfect length for the Kings of Leon documentary.

We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? All right, this one's got a little porch adjacent, if you like a little porch emo. Actually, I don't know if it's emo or not, but it's close. I want to bring up a record that came out last week called Barry the Dead. It's by a project called Spirit Night. If you're on Twitter, you probably know Dylan. I'm going to mispronounce his last name, and so I won't even say it.

But, you know, Dylan, Spirit Night, elite poster. But it turns out that, you know, he's actually really good at music. You know, like there are so many artists who, like, I follow on Twitter and because they're funny. or they seem cool and then I have to like kind of backpedal. It's like, the record's okay. Like, I don't want to promote this. I don't want to like, you know, what do I do? But this guy's actually really good and that's always a relief.

He put out a record I really, really like in 2018 called Shame when he was, you know, just stopped being a member of a certain heavily populated emo band with a very big name. And what this one does, it's just a very tuneful emo-scented pop rock album. he's mentioned like Old Saddle Creek or R.E.M. on Discord as like the sort of aim. Songs about nostalgia, dead friends living in West Virginia. Really good patio music topics. You know, there's a song called Country Roads that sort of, you know, splits the difference between John Denver and Weezer's Beverly Hills, and I promise you that's like intentional

and good. Yeah, it's just, it's very low stakes, but very enjoyable. It's kind of album that you don't hear much of. these days and he, you know, set out to make a record that would like he said, like kind of save my life back in 20, like 2005. So, yeah, it kind of ties together a lot of themes. Patio music, Old Saddle Creek, you know, V-a-B, Riloh-Kiley. Good stuff. Spirit Night, bury the dead. Yes, I also like this record. Shout out to Dylan. Good tunes. Good jams. Definitely want to play it on the patio this weekend.

I want to shout out a record called I Looked Out by a singer-song. writer named Greg Freeman, who's originally from Vermont, and now he's in Portland. This album actually came out in 2022, and I don't remember reading about it. I didn't hear the album when it came out. I actually discovered this record because a reader reached out to me on Twitter and was like, I can't believe you haven't talked about this album. It seems like it's totally up your alley. So I went on band camp, I checked it out, and the reader was absolutely right. I like this record a lot. And I would recommend it to people who, like me, are loving M.J. Lenderman right now, listening to Rudolph, listening to Knocken, his other recent single, which is great.

Actually, a re-recorded version of an older song, but it is, I think, vastly improved sonically in its new incarnation. If you're into M.J. Lenderman, I would say Greg Freeman is someone you should also be listening to. He shares a fascination with Jason Molina. You definitely hear that influence on this record. But I would say that he takes that in more of like a 90s indie rock direction. Like there's some guided by voices influences here, I think. A little bit of like Neutral Milk Hotel influences as well. And it's just great indie music with like paddle steel on there,

a little bit of a country influence. Also a little bit of an indie rock influence. A very, very enjoyable record. I'm sorry I missed it last year, but better late than never. I think you all should check it out too. It's called I Looked Out by Greg Freeman. We've now reached the end of our episode, so thank you for listening. We'll be back with more news and reviews and hashing out trends next week.

And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.