Indiecast - The Thrill Of American Football and The Agony Of "Michael"

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

Steven and Ian start with a Moviecast about the new Michael Jackson biopic, a huge blockbuster that Steven saw and Ian probably won't (3:16). From there they talk about the pros and cons of concert tourism (17:55) and Ian's recent experience seeing the cult emo band Everyone Asked About You (23:26). Then they talk about some of the week's new releases, including albums by Hiss Golden Messenger, Lip Critic, The Black Keys, and Tori Amos (32:15) before landing on an extended conversation about the band American Football and their new self-titled LP (41:58). Finally, in Recommendation Corner Ian discusses the band You're An Angel and Steven stumps for Mildred (56:26).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indicast is presented by Amazon Music. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we talk about the new album by American Football, among other subjects. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's upset that the Michael Jackson movie didn't focus enough on the free willie soundtrack. Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? I mean, first off, the SWV remix of right here that interpolate.

relates human nature, which is my favorite Michael Jackson song. Yeah, that's a banger right there. But I am not, I am not nostalgic for the Free Willy soundtrack because that was on constant rotation during the darkest period of my life, which was a Jewish overnight summer camp in 1993. It was that. It was the Lion King soundtrack. It was Billy Joel River of Dreams. Wow. I don't need to hear that stuff ever, ever again. You are a real outcast. If you, yeah, if you, if you liked smashing pumpkins, that made you a real outlier back then. What else is on the free willy soundtrack other than the Michael Jackson song?

Will you be there? I mean, that's like the big one. Yeah, I know that, but like what else is on there? That's a great question. Is SWV something by, there's a new kids on the block song, something called The Funky Poets? Wow. Yeah, this is like real obscure stuff. And after that, it's, okay, so will you be?

there appears twice apparently at the beginning in the end like it's kiss with rock and roll all night. What? Rock and roll all night is on the free willy soundtrack? No, no, no. But it's like how it kiss shows. Apparently they begin and end with rock and roll all night.

Okay. Yeah, I think the freely willy soundtrack is, yeah, there's a reason it doesn't come up that much. I think a lot of it is, you know, soundtrack stuff from the movie. By the way, a bit of lore. My wife, I think, went to, it was either like middle school with the kid from Free Willy.

He was apparently in. nice kid. That's good to hear. Yeah, it did not let it go to his head. You know, if there was a remake of Free Willy, they could put Killer Whales, the Carson had a song on there. I'm sure they would do that. They could put a song by freelance whales on there.

Oh, God. Isn't there like an emo band called Like Something in the Whale? There's, I think Jonah in the Whale, but there was also the post-promise ring Project White Whale. Okay. Yeah, but beyond that, I think we've, there was the band Whale who did hobo-humpin-slowbo babe, which is a, that's like a Twitter bat signal right there. Because we would always bring up Hobo-Johnson's Slobo, babe. Yeah, yeah, whale.

And, you know, you could do Moby Dick by Led Zeppelin, put that on there too. Or I'm sure Moby would be hoping to be doing that as well. Maybe something from Leviathan, the Mastodon record. That's a whale-themed. That's a whale music post-free willy. I feel like in the 90s, not a lot of whale music, but there was in the 21st century. I wanted to talk about just quick here, movie cast,

the Michael Jackson film biopic, Michael, huge box office hit, over $200 million grossed worldwide in its first week. I went to go see it because I'm a Michael Jackson fan of his music, not of his other things I should distinguish I think I gotta distinguish

Michael Jackson I'm a fan of his music not a fan of you know other activities that he might be doing I don't know if there's people who are fans of like other aspects of Michael Jackson

probably not what do you think you're silent over here is this I mean maybe his like uncredited appearance on the Simpsons or like how he basically wrote Rockwell

somebody's watching me or did he did him and Prince ever play ping pong or is that just like kind of Oh yeah, that's a real thing. Because Prince was a big ping pong guy, and he wanted to play Michael Jackson. It was like one of their interactions.

There was a danceoff that they had at a James Brown concert. Oh, yeah. In the early 80s. I think you wrote about that, right? I did write about that, yeah, a long time ago. But anyway, I went to go see this movie, and I don't know. A lot of people have been writing about this movie. A lot of scoldy takes about this movie.

it's getting terrible reviews, which are warranted as a film. It's a very strange movie. It feels very choppy. I know that they had to reshoot it because there was a ending at the, the original ending of the movie was basically excoriating the accusers against Michael Jackson and making them look like money-grubbing grifters. And they were like, we're going to get sued if we do this. So then they tacked on a new ending where it's Michael at Wembley Stadium in 1988. Like it cuts from 1985 on the victory tour with the Jackson's. And it skips over bad and it goes right to this concert.

And it's similar to how the, of how Bohemian Rhapsody ends at Live Aid. It's a very similar thing. He just end with a big concert with the subject of the film. But it's a really odd film, very disjointed. but in its own way, it's pretty entertaining. The guy that plays Michael Jackson, Jafar Jackson, who I think is his nephew, something like that. Yeah, I think that.

Like a legitimate relation. The greatest Michael Jackson impersonator of all time. I'm calling it right now. I haven't done a rigorous review of every Michael Jackson impersonator who's ever lived, but I'm confident in saying that none of them can top this dude. He was incredible. And if you could win an Oscar for being perfectly cast for one movie, this would be the instance. I can't see this guy playing any other part.

You know, like if he was a cab driver in some movie, it'd be like, oh, that's Michael Jackson playing the cab driver. So he can only be in this movie. But he just as an impersonator of Michael Jackson, he is admittedly amazing in the movie. But it just got me thinking about how... I think the only way will ever get a truly great Michael Jackson movie, like a movie that captures him in his totality, because he really is the entire spectrum of humanity in, like, one person. Like all the extremes in one guy.

The idea that he could be this famous, absurdly talented, beloved beacon of beauty, and then also allegedly, I'll say allegedly, with very incredulous quote marks around it, allegedly a monster, like a horrible monster. I don't know if you've seen Leaving Neverland, the documentary that came out, which you can't see now, it's been buried. But to say that he's been accused of sexual abuse of children

is like the most misleading euphemism. Like, it's not at all appropriate to describe what he's done. Like, this is the horrific acts. he's been accused of the word sexual abuse, it just doesn't begin to cover it. So you have this spectrum of humanity that you can't encompass in any two-hour film. You can't just show him as the entertainer,

just show him as the monster. I think the movie's going to be made like in a hundred years. Like when everyone who was alive, when Michael Jackson was alive, is dead. And it'll just be people who had no direct knowledge of him and they'll just appreciate him like an historical character who is crazy. You know, like when they make movies about Napoleon,

you know, like nobody that Napoleon killed in wars is alive anymore. So we can just watch these movies about Napoleon, waging wars. And it's like, wow, what a crazy guy this was. I think with Michael Jackson, it's going to be the same thing. Because what he's done is so incredible artistically and so horrible personally. it's like we can't wrap our minds around it there's no way I think to make a movie with the limited perspective that people have now

yeah and you know you mentioned they had to completely reshoot the ending the reason for that it's actually like way darker than how you described it there was a there was apparently like this clause in a settlement that said like that predicted accurately that they're probably gonna

the estate's probably gonna try to make a movie that exonerates Michael or paints him in a good light and it said in that legal settlement or legal settlement that Michael Jackson is barred or his estate is barred from making a movie that tells his side of the story. And they just like straight up didn't know that. And then when somebody brought it up, they had to reshoot it and have it happen six months later. So yeah, you got to read the contracts all the way to the end. Well, I mean, the movie, it's spoiler alert here, but the movie tease you up for a sequel at the end because there's a title card that comes up before the credits that says,

his story continues, dot, dot, dot. Like it's from the, like, it's from like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. He's getting the, he's getting the next Infinity Stone. It's one of the craziest title cards I've ever seen in a movie. Like, his story continues. Yeah, you could say that. Is it stylized like the album where he made statues of himself from all over the world, like his story?

No, there's no statues in this movie. be sadly. That will be in the sequel, I guess, which, you know, if, like, Werner Herzog directs it, or, you know, who's the dude, who am I thinking of the guy who did, like, I'm just blanking, like Melancholia, that guy. Oh, Lars von Schreier. Lars von Trier. He needs to direct the... You have, like, a guy, like, whoever a Daniel Day Lewis type is, who just spends, like, 10 years like embodying Michael Jackson, learning to sing like him. And yeah, just like a real method kind of thing. I just mean like a director who's going to get into the depths of darkness, you know.

It can't be like... Ari Aster, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That should be the Michael Jackson sequel, which will, of course, never happen. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, people are writing about this and they're saying, oh, the success of this film proves that people don't care about. sexual abuse victims, what I would just say is that what this movie proves is an essential truth of human nature, which is that people care about what's most directly in front of them.

And with Michael Jackson, what's most directly in front of most people is their own engagement with his music. When they listen to his music, they think about themselves. They don't think about Michael Jackson. So even if they know about these victims, and they care about them theoretically, it's not felt as immediate as that own connection. And that's the same part of human nature that allows us to live in the world. I mean, if we cared about things that we couldn't see as intensely as the things right in front of us, you know, we would all be curled up in a ball about AI, global warming, any number, the war and Iran that our country is waging right now and killing all these people

in the Middle East. You know, that's just part of human nature. It's what allows people to function. And in a lot of ways, it's a positive attribute. I guess in this instance, it does lead to this sort of cold bifurcation or compartmentalize. It allows people to coldly compartmentalize their feelings about this guy who, again, has made a lot of people who never knew him personally very happy. If you knew Michael Jackson personally, it might have been a different story, especially if you were a kid in the 80s or 90s.

But I don't know, pretty fascinating thing. I mean, when you talk about human nature, you are describing the chorus of Michael Jackson's human nature about why people do kind of evil things telling them that it's human nature. Yes. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I haven't seen the movie. And nor have I read any of the pan reviews, which is, I don't know, either a sign of maturity or. like a low-level depression that I don't get a kick out of these anymore. And I wonder from your perspective, having seen it, whether you get the sense that people are

mad at, like, they're thinking about a movie they didn't get, which I guess would be like finding Neverland, like the Finding Neverland biopic or what they got. From what I could tell, this is basically Michael Jackson's estate making the like a Burns for all seasons, like the, where Mr. Burns like hires Stevensville-Bergo to make a biopic. Um, the, the scenes I've seen look crazy, um, especially the crowd shots. Yeah. Uh, there's like a real uncanny, like deep fake AI when you see the people up close. Like it looks like, um, it looks like a converge concert for like a, it looks like a hate,

like a hate 56 thing where it's like you see Jesus piece playing it. This is hardcore. But like when they zoom out, it looks almost exactly like the stands in EA college football 26. It's just that. It does look like a film that is designed specifically to be clipped and shown, like experienced in one minute increments. See, I disagree with that. I actually think this movie plays a lot better in a movie theater. Okay.

Because I think that's where you get the best parts of the movie, which is listening to this music in a dark room on a nice sound system, which was really the appeal of Bohemian Rhapsody. I think it was the queen music. people wanted a recreation of seeing them live. And just the excitement of that made people overlook all of the many, many narrative flaws of the movie and all of the weird choices. I mean, in this Michael Jackson movie, the lawyer for Michael Jackson is one of the producers of the film. And he has a weirdly large role in the movie. He's played by Miles Teller. And there's a whole scene like where he gets hired by Michael Jackson.

and it makes the lawyer have we all love Michael Jackson hiring his lawyer exactly and it just makes the lawyer look like this cool take charge guy and it's like why is this in here other than to placate the ego of one of the producers I mean there's lots of choices like that lots of weird jumps in time lots of strange things that aren't really explored at all like I said doesn't talk about the album bad at all like this huge album that had like five number one singles just skip over that to get to this concert. I mean, it feels like the concert was tacked on at the end

because they needed a new ending and that was the only way to have this satisfying payoff at the end of the movie. But again, I think for most people it's just about seeing recreations of things that they remember

from Michael Jackson videos at concerts. Like it recreates the famous Motown 25 performance when he did the moonwalk for the first time. And if you've seen that clip, I mean, they do a remarkably good job of recreating it. A sort of very narrow criteria for what I think people want from this movie,

like the majority of the public, the movie delivers. And then it fails like in every other way. So I think that critics writing about it critically, I mean, they have a point. There's a lot that's wrong with the movie. But I also think it's hard for me to watch that movie and not concede that they're delivering what fortunately or unfortunately

the public or the audience for that film would want that audience doesn't want a thoughtful examination of this guy I mean again I would just say like as a movie fan like Michael Jackson as a character this is sort of like doing a movie about

you know trying to think of like a really complex character it's like doing a movie Oppenheimer? Yeah, or it's like doing a movie about Jake LaMotta and only focusing on his cool fights, you know, and not talking about all the stuff that went on in his marriage and family.

You know, if you were just like a hardcore Jake Lamata fan, you probably didn't like Raging Bull, but if they had made Raging Bull more like this movie, maybe you would have liked it more. But as a film, it would have been a lot worse. So anyway. What was the crowd work like in that film? Were there like people singing along?

where there are people like kind of doing the Michael Jackson adlips because I feel like that would be like I haven't really seen too many biopics in the theater but I imagine that would have to be a big part of it right I mean my I went on a Saturday morning it was all white boomers all white boomers in my in my theater so there was no singing along they were just complaining about the trailers not liking any of the trailers the people sitting around me were not liking the new Boots Riley trailer they were not liking that movie at all. These like 70-year-old white boomers, we're not into it.

We should get off the Michael Jackson movie here because we got a lot of other things to talk about. Okay, so we are recording early here this week. We're recording on Tuesday because I am going to Texas to see a couple Bob Dylan shows. And in between there, I'm also seeing Joe Rousseau's Almost Dead, which I know you're a big fan of Ian. Very famous Grateful Dead cover band. probably the most successful Grateful Dead cover band. They played like Red Rocks and they headline Capitol Theater, venues like that. So I have a day off between Bob Dylan shows down in Texas,

so I'm going to go see Joe Russo's almost dead in Dallas. Do you ever take trips to go see bands? You know, they call it concert tourism. Because I've noticed like I've been doing this more and more in recent. in years. I never did this as a younger person, but I was just thinking how, you know, in the last couple years, like, I've seen, like, fish and U-2 at the sphere in Las Vegas, which were professional trips, technically, although I think I made them professional trips because I wanted to just go see it, and I had a way to get reimbursed because I wrote about it. But I saw Oasis

in London. I've seen Bob Dylan at a couple of places. I saw him in Tulsa last year. wouldn't you go to the Bob Dylan Center there in Tulsa. And, you know, they talked about this, like, I remember, like, when the Taylor Swift tour was going on. A lot of people were doing that for the Taylor Swift tour. It seems like it's become a bigger thing. I'm a big fan of it. I feel like it's a cool way to travel.

It's a cool way to see music. It actually, it penetrates my own occasional cynicism about live music, where sometimes I don't get excited to go see bands. that are playing 10 minutes away from me. But if I'm flying to go see them, it takes more of an effort. And it makes it feel fresher to me. Have you engaged in concert tourism and all, Ian? I mean, I did go to Las Vegas to see Best Friends Forever,

which seems like the, I guess, the thing that count for me. I mean, does going to L.A. count? I think if you got to drive, that probably doesn't count. Well, no, but that's like two hours away. That doesn't count. It's a hall, but it's definitely, like... I think you got to stay overnight. I think if you stay, you know, to me, like, I sometimes have to drive to Chicago to see shows,

and that's like a six-hour drive. I would count that, but if I were going to, you know, like when I lived in Wisconsin, I had to drive two hours to Milwaukee or Madison to see shows a lot. I wouldn't count that as tourism, like concert tourism, exactly. Gotcha. So, I mean, I think the big difference is that a lot of... lot of the bands that or a lot of the artists who you've done concert tourism to see like oasis fish you too like i'm not sure if there's like an artist i love that that's big enough for me to justify

that i mean when i was living in kentucky i would do that uh i would fly or make like a seven eight hour drive to chicago uh that happened twice i flew in to see the uh release show for the second american football album low and joan of arc opened and because i had nothing better to do. I drove to Chicago another weekend to see a title fight, the hotel year cloakroom triple bill. That was 2017. Six show. And I also had Live Nation TV, shout out to them, financed my trip to Chicago to see what turned out to be the second to last promise ring show on New Year's Eve in 2015. So I wish I had taken advantage of that more during the glory days of getting publications to pay you to do music recaps of stuff no one's going to read.

But beyond that, I mean, if I'm in a city and there happens to be a concert there, it's like, oh, how convenient? Like when we went to Santa Barbara a few years back, we saw Wilco and the Postal Service back to back. I didn't go to Santa Barbara for that, but it kind of did make everything more convenient. It's like, oh, it's our second anniversary. You know, we were up in Santa Barbara for a certain extent to like our honeymoon. That makes sense, but I cannot think of, I'm trying to think of like what artists would be big enough for me to justify

concert tourism, like radio head maybe. That's really about it. I mean, you don't have kids. So I feel like the bar for you should be lower, you know, because you don't have, it's easier for you to get away, I would think. I mean, having a full-time job, I mean, like, look, it's, it, my job, it is a lot of work to go on vacation. So I've also accumulated my maximum amount of vacation hours. So it is, it's justifiable. I could do it. And if I wish I had, though, like a band that you loved as much as Fish or The Dead or Bob Dylan.

I think that's really where the sticking point is. Also, I don't like to spend money. You know, it's just a matter of me being cheap. Oh, man. See, but again, you don't have kids. What are you spending money on? You have all of the- Living in San Diego, man.

I don't know if you see. I don't know if you see. I mean, don't get it messed. Like, I mean, being a dietitian, that is not a lucrative field. And living, like, when you're, like, we're going to do Zillow cast. I want you to look up San Diego real estate and see what that costs. Well, I know that you did go see a show in San Diego this last week, this band. Everyone asked about you.

And you got to tell me more about. You were messaging me about this band. I've never heard of this band. But apparently they're like a big deal, an emo, or they're like part of like an emo revival thing going on. Yeah, like I would say even post-emo revival because, yeah, I think it's fitting we're talking about American football during this episode because American football set the template for fans like everyone asked about you

where you release a very small, obscure discography and like somehow get discovered through something internet-y and being. braced by a young audience. Like, everyone asked about you. I would say blew up only in the past five years or so. And in part, to a Numero group reissue, which shout to Numero group. They started reissuing like, you know, Jejun and Indian Summer and Current. Like, they're not exclusively an emo label now, but they, that's really what they're

focusing on. And I mean, the best demonstration I can have about, you know, how recent everyone asked about you's rise is. that when I made the Vulture Best Emo Songs List in 2019, and we were struggling to find any female fronted artists who could balance things out, we didn't include them. They're a band who they're from Little Rock, Arkansas. They put out one record called Let's Be Enemies in 1999. That's sort of the midpoint between Rainer Maria and the anniversary. They have dual vocalists. They have keyboards. It's kind of power pop, but like a little more rough. And they sold out the

same venue that I saw a geese at in October last year. I'm not trying to equate these two things, but the same venue, the same sellout. And it was crazy because when I see American football, most of the people look like me. You know, it's like they're 40 something. They got the beers. They got the flannels. I was, first off, I was definitely whiter than everyone there. Like, most of the people there were like Asian or Latino. I was by, far one of the oldest people there. Most of the people don't look like they were alive in 1999. And yeah, it was, these people were going nuts.

Also, I was happy to see first day back. They're a band we've talked about before last year in Recommendation Corner. They're like the new band that opens up for every single emo band of this type. They opened up for Jeune, for Algernon. And people were so pumped, man. It was crazy. And it got me thinking, well, first off, I'm thinking, man, I bet none of these kids have read my stuff.

These are super young people. These are not the people who are going to come up to me and ask me what I think about. They probably don't read pitchfork. So it's like TikTok, you would say? Yeah, I guess like TikTok. Yeah, like everyone there, they had the over-the-year headphones.

Everyone was buying like merch. It was so sweet to look at. And also this is a venue that closed at 9 o'clock, which I love. and it got me thinking because like there are so many shoegays and emo bands of this ilk that have just only recently blown up like through TikTok or whatever and I'm thinking about like the kind of music that you more frequently cover whether it's like alt country or jam band where you know in the late 90s like maybe you were alive when these bands were around and you

never heard anyone talking about them it's the great dustering of certain subgenres this happens a lot with shoegaze it happens a lot with slowcore it happens a lot with emo and I'm wondering if that happens with, you know, your, like, I guess the genres you cover more often. Well, when we were getting ready to record, you brought up the band Acetone, which is a band I'm going to be talking about on my substack, my catalog club series, where I talk about a different album in an artist discography every month. My artist for May is Acetone. They're a band, I think, that fits a lot of what you're saying in terms of a group that really had no profile in the 90s and I really didn't

know about them at all. They're a band that I feel like I would see their records in bargain bins and based on the name I think I assume that they were like an electronic group. I didn't really know what kind of music they made and

in the last 10 years or so maybe a little bit longer they've just become this cult band that hasn't come back like Duster has come back but I think they definitely have a pretty big cult audience. So for people who aren't familiar, acetone is this band from Los Angeles that makes this combination of like slow core,

an old country, and like surf music and a little bit of like Neil Young sounding like proto-grunge music, especially on their early records. And they're the kind of band where if you want to buy their records on eBay or Discogs, they go for a ton of money. Like actually in the months getting ready to do this series, I was buying up their CDs and I was spending like 40 or 50 bucks per disc because there was a reissue that was put out by Lightning the Attic. It was a vinyl reissue of all their albums a few years ago. But otherwise, their albums are still relatively hard to find and for a long time they weren't streaming.

So definitely a mysterious band, but like a really like cool band, like cool like in a way that I think they make great music, but also cool in just their vibe. They're the quintessential underground band that kind of sounds like the Velvet Underground and you would just get turned on to by a friend and you would think, oh, this is like the most amazing band I've ever heard. So there's them, I would say like an alt country. I mean, in a way, I think this is true of like David Berman and Jason Molina, both of whom weren't obscure in their life.

but I would say that they're more popular now than they were when they were alive. I mean, the fascinating thing with David Berman of sober Jews and Purple Mountains is that not only is he an influential writer, which you would expect, but he's also an influential singer. Like there's a lot of people that are singing like David Berman now, which I'm sure David Berman, wherever he is, would find that to be sort of sardonically hilarious. You know, this guy who famously sang, all my favorite singers couldn't sing. And he, you know, prided himself not really being a technical singer. And yet he's this guy that everyone wants to imitate. It feels like every young band that has aspirations of singer-songwriter profundity. You know, they want to sing like him.

I would also put Ryan Davis in there of Ryan Davis in the Roadhouse band. Just because he used to be in a band. called State Champion that was doing Alt Country in the 2010s that I really don't remember hearing about it all back then. I don't know if you remember

State Champion at all? Not at all. Not in the slight. And if you haven't heard of them, I definitely haven't. And they're a band that I think completely fell by the wayside. And then Ryan Davis went on his own,

formed the Roadhouse band, and started putting out, he put out one solo record that is actually quite good. And then MJ Lenderman asked him to open on the Manning Fireworks tour because he was a fan of state champion. And I think that was one of the big things that just totally elevated his profile. And now he's like one of the top people in that sort of indie, alt-country scene.

So he's kind of the closest thing, I think, in Alt-Country to what you're describing. Yeah, because, you know, I always wonder it's like, you know, there may be certain genres where like the big bands are just like up at the four and um yeah i i maybe there is i i think light in the attic might be the sort of uh equivalent of numero group but yeah it's like it's crazy to see like i've been texting with the everyone asked about you guys and uh i was saying that like everyone was like five foot four with like purple hair and going nuts and they're like that every single show and they're like in their 50s um so it's really hard. heartening to see. And it also makes me think, man, can I talk more about these guys in my book? Because

Death Cab is really hard to get on the line. Well, it's your book. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. You are the god of that world. So let's do a quick roundup here of new albums that are out today. These are records that you can go find on a streaming platform. If that is your thing or you can actually go to a brick and mortar record store and pick them up. Just looking at the list here of things that might interest our listeners. There's a new record by His Golden Messenger called I'm People out today. His Golden Messenger, very prolific folk rock band with some old country accents. I believe they're from North Carolina.

Yeah, but they're originally from Golita. This guy, MC Taylor, used to be in like a screamo band back in the day. Oh, wow. That must have been a long time ago. Yeah, very long time ago. He's been doing His Golden Messenger from. a long time. I feel like they put out a record almost every year. Yeah. So I've got, I think, three or four of their albums. And, you know, good band, good solid band. I don't know if they've

ever totally nailed it for me, but definitely in that B, B, B, plus range for me. And also a really good live band. So they have a new album out today. Casey Musgraves has a new album out today, called Middle of Nowhere. She had that single about being really horny that came out like a month or two ago. If you remember that song, Ian. I do remember that song. I remember us talking about it, but maybe that song itself. Lip Critic has a new record out today called Theft World.

This is a band that I've seen get some play in the music media. They haven't really totally made a strong impression on me. I don't know if you have any feelings about Lip Critic, Ian? Aren't they, like, one of those, like, kind of cheek-faced? like we make songs about the absurdity of modern existence type bands. I thought they were more like a like a cool New York post-punk band. Oh. That was my impression of them.

All right. Well, I was unfamiliar with your game. I don't think that they're quirky. I think they're more of like the, you know, we're a New York band. We're going to take over the world type situation. Like if there were more of a New York music media, they would be the kind of band. I think that people would be writing. about right now.

So they have a new album out today. There are new albums from Maya Hawk and Rita Wilson. So two actresses putting out albums today. Maya Hawk has a record called Matreo Corso and Rita Wilson, wife of Tom Hanks. Sound of a Woman is the name of her album. That's a great title. Do you go deep on Rita Wilson records, Ian? Yeah, no, I am not one of the Wilson heads.

Yeah, there's a new Toadies album apparently I was going to get to that Okay, well you brought it up Toadies Yeah What do you think about the Toadies? You know what? Like it was crazy to like find out I heard Possum Kingdom before I heard the Pixies

And it was always cool to like have that sort of Backfilling of like what music actually sounds Like Tyler was like That song went quadruple platinum with White Marsh High School. People love that song. They're cool with me. I only know there one big hit. Do you want to die? I know that song. I come from the water, banger, backslider, also banger, uh, rubberneck. That is like a UCD classic. Uh, the black keys have a new album out today called Peaches. This is a collection of blues and rock covers. Uh, on my, uh,

my substack, I wrote a big thing about the Black Keys and how just the trajectory of their career in the last, say, 15 or so years. I wrote this feature for Grantland many years ago called The Winners History of Rock and Roll, where I wrote about seven very successful rock bands from over the course of like 40 years. And the last band in that series was the Black Keys. And I feel like ever since I published that, the Black Keys have been consistently losing ever since. And I feel like maybe the winner's history of rock and roll curse them.

So I wrote about the Black Keys. I don't know. I'm not going to just do the knee-jerk thing. Everyone just clowns this band now. I do think the Black Keys were good once upon it. time. And I think them doing blues covers, it's probably a good comeback after what they've been doing in recent years. They put out a record last year where they were working with song doctors, including like Desmond Child. What? What? Is Diane Warren in there? Like,

I mean, you're talking to real. Scott Storch has a song writing card out there. I'm not joking. So just to do like the Back to Basics record where they're doing like Junior Kimbrough and Arroyle Burnside songs. I mean, I think that's actually a pretty good move for them. So hopefully that works. We talked about this already. The Clayton, I'm not the Claypool, Lenin Delirium, the Les Claypool Sean Lennon album. Okay.

The Great Parenthood Ox and the Golden Egg of Empathy is the title of the record. Like I said, I like their first album. But you can guess from this album title that they're doing some contemporary commentary on this record. might be a little dicey, I don't know. I'm sure they have very interesting views on if the shape of the actual Earth and whether vaccines

work. Like, I think they're going to get kind of Van Morrison with it. Van Morrison never questioned vaccines. He just didn't want to have shows canceled. I'm going to defend my man, Van here. He wasn't questioning vaccines necessarily. He's just being a grouch, as he always has been. Tori Amos has a new album out in Times of Dragons.

I've never really gone deep on Tori Amos, I have to admit. We have in this household. They're like massively important artists for my wife growing up in her milieu. I definitely was listening to Tori Amos. Up until Scarlet's Walk, I kind of fell off after that. But yeah, her first couple of albums, they really hold up. I'm particularly a fan of Tevinas and Back. That's like kind of where she did like this trip hop sort of thing.

Like that was very much in the style at the time. I'm probably like the biggest to Venus and backhead of the Tori Amos fan base. I need to take some time and dig into Tori Amos. It's no disrespect to her. I just haven't had the opportunity, but I know there's a lot of gold there to dig out. There's also a new Young the Giant album, which when I saw this,

I thought for a second it was Caged the Elephant. You're not wrong in getting those mixed up. These are the bands like I've always pitched us doing when there's like nothing else going on. Yeah. These bands that just are like Cold War kids. I reviewed a Young the Giant album back in 2011 or so. And they're just one of these bands that have accumulated hits.

Like, you know, kind of foster the people where you listen to a song and you're like, is this like Cold War Kids or is this Imagine Dragons? It's somewhere in between there. It's like, oh yeah, this is like Young the Giant, right? Like this is what they're doing. Have we ever talked about, I'm going to change the subject now to cage the elephant here. Have you ever talked about the confusing nature of cage the elephant's name?

Like for the longest time, I thought the band was named after an elephant named cage. But apparently it's about the act of caging an elephant is what the... Right? Yeah, it's sort of like smashing pumpkins. There was confusion whether smashing was meant like as an adjective or a verb. Like a British, like smashing. Yes. Okay.

That's exactly it. I mean, but is that right? Or is it named after an elephant named Cage? I'll have to message some of the people I knew in Kentucky from my internship, like, dietetic internship, because they went to Western Kentucky, which is where Cage of the Elephant are from. They have all these bowling green stories. And I'll ask them because they did talk about Caged the Elephant a lot.

They're like, if you went to Western Kentucky University, they're like, they're like, like what Dave Matthews band was to me, uh, going to college in Charlottesville. They had a run where they were opening up every arena tour. Yes. That I saw. Speaking of the Black Keys, the last time I saw them was 10 years ago, 10 plus years ago, and Cage the Elephant was the opening act. They were, they were definitely a good energetic band. Um, they had a lead singer that was very demonstrative, I remember, which was good contrast with the Black Keys, who were not a very demonstrative live band. I mean, they were a terrible band for an arena. I remember seeing the Black Keys, like, in clubs. They're a good club band, but just those two

guys on a huge stage in an arena, not the most scintillating live experience I've ever had, I have to say. Yeah, you want to talk about concert tourism. I saw Cage the Elephant as part of a radio concert in Bakersfield, California on my birthday in 2016. I was covering it for, God knows what. It was Cage the Elephant, Foles, and Silver Sun pickups, all of whom happened to be represented by the same management company. So that's a, yeah, that was like a real, that was a real eye-opening experience. Everyone in Bakersfield went to that.

Like, that was the event that night. That's incredible. Well, let's talk about American football. They have a new album out today called American Football. Their fourth self-titled album released since 2019. I'm sorry, since 1997. Their previous record came out in 2019. This is a band that formed in Urbana, Illinois.

They were originally active from 97 to 2000, then they took a long hiatus, then they reformed in 2014, band led by Mike Kinsella, a Renaissance man of emo, formerly of the band, Captain Jazz, and Jonah Bark, currently also in the band, Owen basically a solo project.

Is that really a band or is it just him? Yeah, it's pretty much him. I mean, the last couple of records, he's been working with S. Carey, who's, I think, in the general Boni Vair universe. So, yeah, a lot of those records, like the King of Wise, the Avalanche, they kind of do sound like Latter-day Boni-Veer records,

which I will say this, every time someone brings it up, Perth is a total never-meant riff. Right. Well, we'll get to this too. I mean, I think that even American football has some bunny bear like sonics to it. But talk to us, Ian, about American football. I'm going to hand this off to you because I think there's a lot of people out there,

probably like me, who are aware of American football. It may even like American football, but they don't necessarily have the historical context for this band. So can you just talk a bit about where this band comes from, what their influence, like the influence that they've had on music, why is this an important band in the Emosphere? Well, I think the most important thing American football did was, and if you, if you like what you hear, I got a book about it. Ah, there you go. Yeah, I've talked to these guys so many times over the years, and they're really lovely to talk to. Shout Steve Lamos.

What American Football, the first album, really did, is like, that is, like, that is, where emo kind of stopped being punk, they were really ahead of their time in being like former hardcore and punk guys who went to college and then started to get into jazz. You know, they were listening to Miles Davis, Steve Reich. They were really also into Red House painters. And so this album came out in 1999

and the general milieu of it was, you know, braid, Rainer Maria, you know, The Promise Ring, because Mike Kinsello was part of Cap and James. as Tim Kinsella was doing their thing. And so it was this sound that really had no precedent in emo per se. It had a lot more in common with what was happening in Chicago Post Rock. They were super into that. Gaster del Sol, Tortus, they all worship John McIntyre. And they made one record and broke up basically before the record came out. And, you know, Mike Concella did his thing with Owen, 15 years later, it becomes huge on Tumblr.

It's just a very easily memeable album because the house is so easy to meme. On the album cover, there's a house that's become an emo landmark. People pay money now to stay in this house. It's an Airbnb, yeah. You can do like artistic retreats. They had an event there where they introduced new shoe from vans. And yeah, this was around the time like emo revival was happening. and a lot of what was going on there was influenced by cap and jazz and American football as opposed

to what came before. And so through popular demand, American football reunited in 2014. They were playing like thousand, 2000 cap amphitheaters. They may be played like a dozen live shows during their time. They made a record in 2016, which was big, 2019. And they've become like not a reunion band or like an emo band. They kind of, they're like just a big legacy indie band. They also kind of been called Math Rocks. They have that audience as well. If you go see an American football show,

it'll be an interesting combination of, you know, internet emo kids, but also the villains in mild end kicks, you know, guys with beards and flannels in their 40s talking about techniques and pedalboard. And so it's just been such an interesting phenomenon on to see them get this big. They are kind of a primary color in not just indie rock, but a lot of genres.

Like NeverMent is one of those riffs that's like Seven Nation Army or Smoke on the Water where it is just like a riff you play as a joke. I do wonder if guitar centers have telecasters and the FAC, GCE tuning, that you can just pick that up and play that riff in the same way that you would like stairway to heaven. And so it's interesting always to have them release. a new album. They don't do it often, but to have that compete with their first album, which they made as literal teenagers, especially compared with what they're doing now. And I'm curious what you think about it, you know, just anyone who is aware of them, but doesn't go super deep on the lore. Yeah, I mean,

I remember hearing the American football album years ago with not a whole lot of background information going into it, just it being presented to me as this coming out of like the emo world or even even it being like a punk record. And I remember being really taken aback by the guitar tones on the record. It was not what I was expecting at all. I mean, the thing about American football is that they don't really rock in any kind of conventional sense. Like you mentioned the guitar riff from Never Met. It's not a riff in the conventional sense you mentioned like smoke on the water or seven nation army like those are like heavy riffs that you can imagine soccer crowds chanting this is more to me more like something

this is going to sound like um making a joke but it's not because i actually like these artists but it reminds me of something i i hear like on sting solo records or like pat metheny records like Dominic Miller playing shape of my heart on Sting, you know, Ten Summoners' Tales. I mean, that's what the guitar tones reminded me of. And I actually like that guitar sound, but it just surprised me. It was not what I was expecting at all with this band. Yeah, when you're into Pat Mathini, every time, like, I hear like something where it's like, oh, that kind of sounds like American football.

Someone would be like, no, dude, that's Pat Mathini. There's like not that much separation. It's so Mathini. It's just that twinkly, airy quality. there's definitely a jazz rock sound, I think, to a lot of these records, even if they're not playing jazz tempos or occasionally there's horns on their records. But it's definitely a rock band. But it's very floaty.

And the songs are sort of mid-tempo and meandering. And there are melodies there and there are hooks. But again, when you think about emo or punk, that more sledgehammer type of delivery, America football doesn't deliver that. And it's kind of amazing to me that they've had this life where, I mean, I can see why they'd be a cult band, but the fact that they were, as you said, like a Tumblr band, it's surprising to me that so many young people latched on to it. Because I do think there is something sort of inherently soft rock about this band,

like adult contemporary sounding about this band almost, where, like, if you just presented this to me without context, there's no way I would have guessed necessarily that they came from, like, a punk background or that they have street cred as, like, these emo godfathers or creators of a blueprint that so many other bands have followed. I mean, I just think that sonically on their own, I would have thought, oh, yeah, this is just sort of like an indie rock band

that likes Pat Metheny and, like, Bruce Hornsby Records. I mean, like, I was actually, when I was listening to this self-titled album, the one that's out today, or out on Friday, I should say. I was actually thinking about the Bruce Hornsby record that came out this year, Indigo Park, because I was listening to that at around the same time as this. And there are a lot of elements where it's like a jazzy pop sensibility with some progressive elements to it.

So it feels experimental, but also, again, airy and light and fluffy at the same time. It's a really interesting thing. I have to say that with American football, I don't really listen to the lyrics, so maybe that affects how I listen to it. But I just feel like I like this band, but I like them for reasons I wouldn't have anticipated. And I think that's also true of the new record.

Because I feel like you and I have messaged a little bit, and I think I've told you a few times that I'm enjoying the album. I really like the single Bad Moons, which is this eight-minute song that has an extended guitar part at the end which honestly and again this is a compliment coming from me but it actually made me think of like

Impossible Germany from Sky Blue Sky like some of the guitar tones on that album is making me think about that it's just interesting to me that this gets classified as emo I understand why that is but it seems more of a philosophical classification or historical

classification, that it is a musical one, I feel like if they were in a vacuum again, that they wouldn't really be in this world. But they are because of Mike Kinsella, like, where he comes from, where he is in the lineage and how they've influenced other bands. But I don't know, it's just an instance where the classification of the band to me is really interesting because it doesn't necessarily translate musically for me, if that makes sense. Oh, absolutely. And yeah, it's like, I think it would also be different if there weren't a ton of like, you. You emo bands, you know, actively trying to sound like that. Like, it's like to the point where, I think polyvinyl printed out like a flag with the

tablature for the never meant riff. It's like kind of like that dot matrix sort of thing. And yeah, it's like you hear it on ambient records as well. Like you like you hear on electronic records. You hear it in hip hop. There was like a period where you could sample like American football. You could sample mineral like little peep or what have you. And so they exist kind of.

in both worlds. But I found it so fascinating that you said, you know, you don't really pay attention to the lyrics because, like, man, that is like why this band is emo still, you know? Right. I'm sure. The big GQ article, like, look, I mean, the GQ article, which was like, it went, I'm just kind of shocked that GQ was the one to do it because, you know, like, I don't see American football in the same lane as, like, geese and Tame Apollo, the other people they've done.

but I remember seeing Mike consult like American football back in 2019 and like during a one of the many, many times we have to switch out guitars and retune. He's like, so is anyone else in marriage counseling? Oh man. It did not land. Yeah. Like I've known them and like I know there's like some dark stuff. But this is really, I think, why we're given this album so much airtime. Because like that was a huge deal.

Like that. It was like one of those stories. Like people don't talk about the album. They talk about the article about the album. Right. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. I mean, it was such a long piece and it really got into the backstory of the band and, you know, possible drinking issues with the, I mean, not even possible.

I mean, I think I talked about some of the band members have stopped drinking and how that used to be a big part of their pre-show routine. And when I was reading that story. It was interesting because I was like, I don't know a ton about this band, but I feel like I know these guys because they're very Midwestern in terms of how they drink. And just being these middle-aged guys who all of a sudden wake up one morning and they realize, oh, yeah, I have a drinking problem. But before now, I've just been drinking like everybody else around me. So there's no way I would have noticed it maybe until all of a sudden you notice it's affecting your life. So that was something that really resonated with me just reading it. But, yeah, I don't know.

American football, you said earlier that they're like a legacy indie band. And they do feel like a band that has transcended the emo genre and now feels like a band that anyone who's into guitar music, especially if you're of a certain age or you like bands of a certain vintage. But this is a band you're probably going to find yourself getting into a some point. And maybe I'm projecting a little bit because I feel like that happened to me. I feel like this is a band that I didn't really pay attention to or care about when they were more of an emo concern. But I think, you know, over time, you just realize, oh, I've kind of run out

of bands from the 90s that are guitar bands that I haven't heard yet. And American football was like one of those bands, like an important band of that time. It's like, I don't really know much about this band. And then just to listen to them and discover that, oh, this isn't really what I expected. I actually think that they're a band because of their un-emo-like approach in a lot of ways to making this prototypical emo music. They do seem like a band that like the average Wilco fan could get into maybe a little bit easier than like Get Up Kids or, you know, other bands of their vintage. Well, if you're a Wilco fan, you might want to check out the Get Up Kids on a Wire, which is their most like Wilco-influenced album. And then,

And actually, if you really like Summer Teeth, something to write home about their 1999 album was directly influenced by Summer Teeth. But I also think, like, yeah, if you're a Wilco fan, you're probably going to like American football more than the get-up kids. We've not reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where we talk about something that we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So there is an album that came out, I believe, two months ago, a little longer than that

from a project called You Are an Angel. it's fine to dream. If you're the sort of person who was at the everyone asked about you show, i.e. someone who's like between the ages of 18 and 22 and extremely online, you're probably aware of this. It's a solo project of Jay from Glass Beach

or should I say Jay formerly of Glass Beach. I have a big interview with her published on my substack this week that gets into the record itself and the end of Glass Beach. Something on exclusive. But at the same time, If you like Glass Beach, you'll like you are an angel. It integrates a little bit more of like the chip tune influence they were doing prior to joining

Glass Beach. It's a very all over the place record. I say that in a positive way in terms of incorporating electronic elements, pop punk elements, ambient with really, really dark, dark lyrics that they wrote a big blog about explaining the influence and inspiration behind all these things. Very fascinating record. It's gotten some run on the internet, but I think once people kind of recognize

what this is in their their overall catalog as like the first post-class beach album, I think it'll get a bit more run. So you are an angel, it's fine to dream. And I want to talk about a band from Oakland, California

that I've been listening to a ton lately. They're called Mildred and they just put out their full-link debut album called Fence Line. And this is a band that is a band in the real sense. There's four members, all of them write songs, all of them write together, really. And it's a really kind of fascinating process how they put together music. I actually interviewed two of the members recently for Up Rock's article. They're really

like a true ego-less band. You know, someone will bring in a fragment of a song. The other members will hear it. They'll suggest a lyric. They'll suggest a song arrangement. And there's really no one leader. They've been able to operate in this way where they can operate as a democracy and it just somehow works. And when you listen to the record, it really does have that feel of four people who are really good friends who have spent a lot of time playing together. And the record feels loose, but also all the parts interlock in a really nice and finely woven way. It's like nice embroidery the way it comes together. And this is a man I would describe, you again, to bring up something I mentioned earlier, there's definitely a David Berman influence on this

band. I would describe them as, like, if sober Jews moved to California, and they sounded more like CSNY, you know, there's like these kind of campfire harmony vocals on a lot of the songs. There's definitely a California folk rock feel to some of what they're doing. But lyrically, very finely observed lyrics, slyly funny, again, all of the adjectives that you would use to describe a band influenced by David Berman. Definitely apparent on this album. And it's just such a great, low-key record. I just keep listening to it over and over again. And I've described it as like my favorite sleeper record of the year so far. It hasn't gotten a lot of press. But I just have a feeling that anyone who hears this album is going to really love it and recommend it to their

friends and that's what I'm doing to you, my friends out there in Indycast world. So check it out. The album's called Fence Line. The band is called Mildred and it's really good stuff. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week.