Indiecast - The Weeknd, James Blake, And Indie R&B

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

After a week of banter about Phoebe Bridgers smashing her guitar on 'SNL' and the discourse that inevitably surrounds the annual announcement of nominees for the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, Ian and Steven are spending this week’s episode of Indiecast reflecting on a simpler moment in indie history. The so-called indie R&B scene of the early 2010’s spawned some of the biggest artists of today, including The Weeknd, Frank Ocean, and James Blake.At the same time, Beyonce and Jay-Z were going to see both Coldplay and Grizzly Bear live, and Kanye was collaborating with Bon Iver. With James Blake’s debut album turning ten and The Weeknd playing the Super Bowl halftime show, now is as fitting a time as ever to reminisce on an era ripe with musical collaboration and exciting releases that remain part of the conversation nearly a decade later.In this week’s Recommendation Corner, Cohen has been enjoying For Your Health's debut album 'In Spite Of,' while Hyden can’t get enough of the Ryley Walker and Kikagaku Moyo collabroative album, 'Deep Fried Grandeur.'See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Indycast. On this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we're going to be talking about the so-called indie R&B scene of the early 2010s that spawned the weekend and James Blake. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

You know, as long as I've been writing about music, like on a semi-professional level, I mean, you can take this back to me, you know, writing about, you know, the president of the United States of America and 311 in high school newspaper, college newspaper. Oh, wow. I mean, as long as I've been putting my byline on music writing, I've always had, I don't know if I've always had these thoughts about like, what did it be like if I had really, you know, put my all into it? what if I had at 22, you know, taken the Stephen Hayden route and gone the, at the alter, all weekly and the local newspaper and, you know, just really made this my life's work. And, you know, I do have a lot of regrets about, you know, like would I have written books by now? Would I have alienated everyone in my family?

Yes. You know, all of it mostly positive. And then I, and then every February without fail, I wake up and realize that I would be professionally obligated to once again have an opinion about the Super Bowl halftime show, the Grammys, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame every year without fail. And I don't know, with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, when that stuff started popping up the other day, I was this close to wishing for like, you know, like Groundhog's Day, like six more weeks of guitar smashing etiquette discourse if I did not have to hear people pretend to care about the rock and roll hall of fame anymore, you know?

You know, I mean, I was joking with you before we started recording, but I actually think this might be a good idea, is that if we just brand this beginning banter segment where we just talk about what's going on, if we just call it like the most annoying music narrative of the week, because I feel like, I feel like that's what we end up talking about, like just, what was the most annoying thing that people were hung up on, you know, during the previous, you know, a few days? I feel like there's always something. And this week, yeah, there was really a cavalcade.

Yeah, you had Phoebe Bridger smashing the guitar, which lasted. That discourse lasted way longer than I expected. I figured, okay, we'll burn ourselves out with this by Sunday. Monday, we'll reboot and we'll just forget what happened. And we get the Super Bowl going on. People are going to be distracted by that. And it was like, you know, like, people still talking about that on Wednesday, and Thursday.

And I don't know, like, I had never heard the argument that, like, smashing a guitar is disrespectful to disadvantage people before that. Like, have you heard that argument being made? I feel like that was a thing that I heard people say, like, oh, like, it's very, it's like a sign of privilege to smash a guitar, which, by the way, she didn't even, like, really smash it. I'm sure she could still play that guitar. Yeah. You know, it's, just give it to the tech. I'm sure they just had to, like, you know, get a screen. screwdriver out and straighten everything out.

I don't know how to fix it. I mean, I've heard it, you know, I've heard from musicians like that it's, I don't know, wasteful because, you know, the sort of people who would smash a guitar are probably smashing expensive guitars. And it's like, what the hell? I've got this, like, Dan Electro from, you know, reverb.com that I bought for $85, which, by the way, that's, like, the guitar that she smashed. It was, like, a super cheap guitar.

And, I mean, people never really bring up, though, something about, like, you know, pyrotechnics, like, how that can be wasteful. And I mean, like we were said last week in the episode, like, people are just so bored and you really can't go. You can't go more than a few days without, like, Phoebe Bridgers' discourse anyway. So this just, this just kind of a line. She's a genius. She's a genius.

Again, she's a genius. Like, the way that she can make middle-aged men, like, embarrass themselves online is amazing. It's like a Jedi mind trick that she, is more skilled at than anyone I've ever seen. I mean, but, you know, it's like, if you read stories about the Who, like Pete Towns and smashing guitars, usually it's like,

they're, like, repairing those guitars after they smash them. It's not like they're just throwing them away, especially, like, when they were first starting out, didn't have a lot of money, or, like, Nirvana, even. I feel like the guitars that Kirk Cobain would smash, they didn't just, like, throw them away. Usually someone would have to, like, you know, duct-take them back together so they could continue to use them.

I also wonder, like, if you're a famous musician and you, like, have, like, a hundred guitars, is that also wasteful? I mean, because you're just, like, hoarding guitars, and there's, you know, people out there who could be playing them theoretically. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm just trying to follow this train of thought to its farthest extreme. But, yeah, you talk about the Super Bowl halftime show. I have to say that, like, that is one of my least favorite think pieces that gets written.

and no shots at anyone who wrote one this year, because I've had to do that in the past, where an editor wanted me to review the halftime show, where you end up sort of projecting all these pretensions onto something that is, I think, just purely spectacle. And I think for the most part, no one really thinks that deeply about, other than, you know, oh, that was weird or that was bad or that was good. They don't really, like, look into the implications. of a Super Bowl halftime show the way a music critic does.

So, like, even more than the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame discourse, like, I'm really grateful that my editor didn't make me write about the halftime show this year. That's always the hardest thing. Have you ever had to write a halftime show, big piece? Well, I've not, but, you know, the good news is maybe your editor said, hey, save it for indie cast. But, I mean, like, with the Super Bowl halftime show, like, to me, you know, there's usually, like, some argument to be made about, like, oh, how come they have Maroon Files?

like let's get, you know, this artist or whatnot. And I think they all align like the Super Bowl halftime show, the Grammys and, you know, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Like people want to use them as like platforms to discuss like, you know, real issues within the music industry. And yet at the same time, you have to realize like all these things are like, they're like industry awards, basically. Like there's really not much, like you could say like, you know, do better rock and

Hall of Fame, but, like, they really have no incentive to do better. I mean, you know, at the very least, yeah, at the very least the Grammys, like, even if, like, we spend our time, like, talking about, like, stuff that isn't the most popular stuff on Earth, at least the Grammys has some sort of dialogue with what's happening in the world. Like, the Grammys do have, like, a real-time impact on, you know, careers and so forth. Like, yeah, it would be cool if, like, Chic and, like, fellow Cudy got into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Will it like alter, I don't know, the scales of justice in any way if, you know, some kid in Cleveland, Ohio goes to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame when it's like open again and sees it.

I don't know. It just seems to me it's like, do you really care, man? It's like this is. Well, like with the halftime show, I feel like, let's say they had booked the foo fighters, you know, like we talked about that last week. Call back. You know, there would have been think pieces where they're like. Like, does this mean that rock is back?

What does it say about mainstream rock at the footh fighters or at the Super Bowl halftime show? And it just like, you know, goes into this whole thing where you take this one booking, which is a big deal. I mean, that is like, I guess the most watched entertainment show over the course of any year. But just taking that and then using that as like, you know, taking the pulse of the industry in some way, which always irritates me. Because that especially happens with rock bands. It's like, if a rock band puts out a record, it's always like, this is the last arena rock band. Or this is like the last successful indie rock band.

And then another, you know, fairly well-known indie rock record comes out like three months later, then that is the last indie rock record, you know, like all these things that people are just extrapolating to create a narrative on something. So people will think it's more important than it actually is. I mean, that's what. It gets tiresome, I think, as a writer and also as a reader sometimes with these things. Well, I think with the rock bands, like with, I remember when like Cole play was like the Super Bowl halftime show. I think like what people, when we have like rock bands or just, you know, adjacent rock bands like Maroon 5 playing the Super Bowl halftime show, it gets people, particularly music writers, excited because like it's set, they want them to fail so badly so they can like talk about the injustice of how like, I don't know, like one of the most famous pop art.

artists on the face of the planet didn't get to play the Super Bowl halftime shows. So, I mean, there's value in, like, having bands like that play, but I don't know. It just seems like it's like us just sowing seeds for the content farm and not even, like, enthusiastically. It's like, like, February is the real, like, got to make the donuts time of music writing, you know? Yeah, absolutely. You know, another narrative, too, that came out of the Super Bowl.

And this, I would also nominate this for like most annoying music narrative of the week was like the discussion over the Bruce Springsteen commercial. Oh yeah. Like the middle. Like where he's in the Jeep and he's touching soil and Kansas. Yeah. And all this stuff. And like, I'm going to be honest here. You know, I wasn't covering the Super Bowl.

I was watching it purely just as a spectator. So like, you know, I feel like I was like most people who watch the Super Bowl. Like I was having some drinks. I was, uh, I had a couple whole. couple of puffs of something, something. I was, like, feeling really good. So, like, by the second half, all my tweets were, like, very friendly.

I think I even, like, tweeted something nice about, like, the Wayne and Garth commercial, which I'm sure was terrible. But I was like, ah, I like everything. And I think I tweeted something nice about the Springsteen commercial, purely just as an aesthetic thing, because I was like, oh, it's Bruce Springsteen

talking soulfully while touching dirt. Like, this is very nice. Not really thinking about the political implications, of it, which I acknowledge is a pretty wishy-washy statement in that commercial, you know, to be nice about it. But apparently there's people that just watch the Super Bowl, stone cold sober, and hate everything. And that seemed like the majority of social media, like, watching that game. And I'm just like, man, we got to blow off some steam here, man.

Can we just like watch this terrible football game, you know? I don't know. I just feel like we could all, you know, we're all boys. We're all uptight. You know, I'm in the part of the country where it's like below zero, like every single day at this point. So like I'm living in prison essentially in my house. Real creed hours right here, man. It's tough.

This is a hard pivot here. But like, have you heard that new record by that band Black Country New Road? No, this is not a hard pivot because like when we talk about like, fit like ha ha this is fun to talk about oh my god this is like so annoying i mean like this is so for for i want to make sure that like we we are connecting with the indecast audience black country new road um this brings together several threads that i always enjoy seeing in um you know in my indie music which is that when you get like the uk publications get like super excited about a band I believe the quietest has called Black Country New Road the best band in the world right now.

This is their first album. What? Yeah. But shout out to the quietest. Like if you ever think that there's like too much consensus in like the indie rock discussion or the critical world, their year end comes out. And like I've heard of maybe 10 of like the top 100 albums that they love. But this black country new road, it's like kind of part of a. you know, a greater surge of talky post-punk type acts coming out of Britain right now.

And this one is like the most talky post-punk of them all. First off, I got to give a shout out to the album cover. It reminds me of like a vagrant circa 2001 picture like, Hey, Mercedes or Saves the Day. Apparently they were just like kind of goofing on like, I don't know, generic album covers on that front. But so I've heard it described as like, Nick or like car seat headrest if or like if he was into like UK post punk or like if Nick Cave was reading Twitter or something along those lines and with like klezmer music. Yeah. Yeah.

So you got to work in the klezmer element here because I feel like this record is like and we've talked about this how we always are looking for bands that. Stir the pot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. We have bands that are fun to argue about because there are certain artists that you feel like are just preordained to be praised. And if you take a shot at them, you're going to be arguing all day on Twitter with people about it.

And sometimes it's like, do I really care that much about this band to say anything? You know, I don't know. Like, they're not that significant. You know, I don't know if I really want to have an argument about this band. But this is one of those bands where I feel like you are equal parts, people loving them and people who can't stand them. And I know for me, I'm kind of in the middle. Like, this record to me is like, there are moments where I'm like, this is a great record.

And there's other moments where I'm like, this is the most annoying record I've heard in a while. And it goes back and forth like that. And I appreciate it on that level because it's not a boring record at all. I know it is. Well, to me, it kind of gets a little bit boring. I mean, like, first off, I got to say the instrumental that leads out the album, that one, I can fully go in for that one. But, you know, just...

That's the klezmery one, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Like the most klezmer-heavy one? Yeah, I do fuck with that song. But yeah, it's, it, it, you're right in that, like, it's an album meant to be argued about. Like, I think quite often, particularly as, I don't know, our discussions in the general sphere go more towards, like, you know, kind of pop and, like, centrist indie rock. Like, I would just love to see someone, like, I don't know, our discussions, like,

just write this like 3,000 words screed about how much they hate like weather station or something like that. But you can't really imagine it. Like not that that record's like that. You know, it's a good record, but it's not one that seems to inspire like a lot of animus on the other side of things. And like I think with a lot of bands like Black Country New Road and like Black Midi, you almost get like kind of a free shot where it's like if you think that they're whack, like you can actually go out and say that. And you know, that's that's kind of a rarity, for like a new band. And, but yeah, I mean, there's, like, lyrics about, like, Kanye in there.

There's, like, self-referential lyrics. Like, one lyric I enjoyed where they called themselves, like, the world's second best slint cover band or something like that. I mean, it's, I, when I listen to this record, someone, uh, someone, uh, brought up that, it reminded them of, like, uh, frog eyes and, like, sunset rub down, like, all this, like, under artsy stuff from 2000, you know, the early 2000s or the mid-2000s. Oh, yeah.

I love Sunset Ruffalo. I don't think it's as catchy as that record. But I think he's right in the sense that, like, if I were 24, like, the same age I was when I discovered those bands, I would probably think that this is the most important band right now because I think that's an age where you like you try to get like a greater sense of like music should be like important and it should be challenging. It's like, you know, that it's just, it's not enough to like music you like just because you think it sounds good. And, you know, you haven't quite developed that sense of self yet. So it's done through like, like, I hear from so many people. I talk to you about like emo music, how like they loved it when they were up to 18. And then from 18 to like 28, they go through this kind of rum stringa where like they just get super hard into indie rock and like are kind of embarrassing.

and by like 30, they're back into it again. Like, this is, this is early to mid-20s, like, this is what music should be type music. And I have to appreciate that on that level. Well, and also, I mean, and this is a record, too, that I look forward to revisiting, and I feel like the parts that annoy me

could come to be my favorite parts of the record. I mean, one thing that I think I would like to hear from more artists are, it's just a willingness to be obnoxious sometimes or to do things that might be, perceived as obnoxious, whether it's because you're really noisy or like grading, like that kind of stuff, which I feel like has really been sort of worked out of music in general, I guess because of the streaming age and like how easy it is to just skip over something. And there seems

like there is this common fear that like if you don't grab people immediately, that they're going to change the song. And I worry that like you're going to lose a band. And this is a band I know you don't like, but like I love fiery furnaces, like a record like Blueberry boat where you have like the record starts with like three or four minutes of like a drum machine and like a squeaking noise and you're like, where is the song going? And you might hear that the first time and think that it's totally annoying. And then you sit with it a little bit longer and you come to really love it. And I just think that willingness to be annoying and obnoxious is really brave and kind of admirable even when it is annoying me.

Absolutely. And I appreciate it even if like it's not really hitting me right away. So I would check out that record by the way. I would do anything. Like my feelings on blueberry boat are not a secret, but I would just love for a record of that nature to come around where it's like the sort of thing that a certain subset of the indie rock sphere just absolutely loves and other people get like. confuse this shit about.

And because I think it's really been a while where there's been something that proprietary to, uh, you know, people who are into indie rock, you know, like, I think there's the, the consensus has kind of edged that stuff out. And, um, right. Yeah. Or even something like Animal Collective. Yeah. Animal Collective, who was like a really big band in indie rock for, you know, quite a few years

who I think now would just be, uh, I can't imagine that getting the kind of boost that did. in the aughts. Not much would. Because it would be, yeah, that's a band we need to talk. We've been talking about doing an animal collective episode at some point. We need to do that soon. I've put that on the horizon. Yes.

But for now, let's get to our mailbag segment. Yes. This question comes from our listener, Richard. Richard, thanks for writing in. He says, hey guys, thanks for all that you, meaning me and Ian have been doing, keeping us informed and inspired during COVID. Wow. Indie cast is always the person.

perfect way to get the weekend started each and every Friday. Kudos go out to both of you for making it happen each week. Richard, that was very sweet. Thank you very much for saying that. And he says, my question relates to artist B-sides and how you see that going forward. During the pandemic, I found myself making multiple best-of-b-sides list

with such artists as Radiohead, Oasis, Food Fighters, U-U-2 Sound Garden, Coldplay, and Pearl Jam. I would even argue that an Oasis best-of-B-Sides playlist is better than an Oasis Best of Albums Cuts playlist. And we also see legacy artists such as Tom Petty, releasing all of his Wallflower's B-Sides as well as the boss. He's known for his B-Sides as well. But in today's world, are we going to see the same cadence of B-Sides material from past

and present artists? It seems as though in the streaming age, the new normal is to release an album with an extra track that didn't make the record or to randomly release songs as a mini-EP or a two-track release. Has streaming killed the B-side, or is it a shift to a different? format where we don't have to wait all these years to hear unreleased songs anymore. That question again is from Richard. This is a great question.

I say this as someone, because I love B-sides. I love a lot of the artists that you mentioned there, who are all, you know, many of them are known for their great B-sides. I feel like we need to explain what this is maybe to some people because it seems very anachronistic, but like, you know, let's say like in the 90s you loved Oasis or you love smashing pumpkins. and like you listen to their albums constantly, almost to the point of, like, being sick of them.

And then you go to the record store and you notice that there's, like, these standalone singles, like, where there's an album track, and then there's, like, maybe two or three extra songs that you haven't heard on the record. And then you go home and you realize, like, wow, these songs are actually, like, really great. And that was something that was, like, pretty common in, like, the pre-streaming age.

You'd have these songs that you kind of had to literally kind of physically dig for that were, you know, situated outside of Elfell. albums and it felt like, you know, like a nice little added bonus. It was really fun. And as someone who grew up in that time, I romanticized that. I'm someone who sometimes feels that like the internet sort of flattened everything and made it impossible to say that this is an album, this is a single, this is a B-side. Everything kind of gets dumped in the same bucket now, which on one hand, I think that's great because it makes it more accessible. I think you can also say, as someone who wouldn't romanticize, you know, that sort of singles format that you could call that

a form of price gouging, you know, because you did kind of force people to buy like three new songs for like $10 or $12. I mean, that was a common occurrence back then. Yeah. So there's a lot of things to criticize about that. But, you know, I am a person who came up in that era, so I still have some affinity for that. And I don't know. I mean, it does seem, though, that, like, I mean, B-sides, I don't know how you would even do that unless you made a point, like, a band made a point of, like, making, like, a 7-inch that was only in a physical format that had a B-side that you couldn't stream. Like, that's really the only way you could do that, I think, and have it exist as a B-side. I don't know. I mean, what do you think about this?

I mean, it seems like B-sides as a concept are pretty much done, though. Yeah, I mean, just by definition, like a B-side can't really. exist unless, you know, you have an A-side. And, like, it speaks specifically to the physical format. And so I think that, like, the terminology that's going to be used going forward is, like, maybe album track and non-album track. But as, you know, our kind reader Richard points out, the album format isn't really, we're shifting away from that. And, you know, as far as B-sides go, like, in my experience, I mean, I, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, You point, like, people will never, you know, know, know the feeling of, like, seeing, like,

where did this radio head, like, single come from? Like, you know, you see the airbag one in stores. And it's like, wow, now I can hear this song, Palo Alto. And it's like, oh, I just spent seven bucks on a two-minute instrumental. Ha, look, wow, that's awesome. Like, I'm 17 years old and I have no money whatsoever. What a great, what a great expenditure. But, yeah, there is, particularly with, like, smashing Compton you brought up.

like I think if like all those songs were available at all times, things like, you know, Pice's Ascariot and the airplane flies high wouldn't feel quite as special anymore. And also like I just got to I just got to say about Apple music's like, you know, retroactive adding of B sides. I think we see that more and more like Richard pointed out like just artists just, you know, they get songs like, okay, let's let's have this opportunity like, you know, put this back in the news again and we'll just put more songs on it. Now it's a deluxe version. And that happened with Little Baby's My Turn last year, which is probably like the biggest hip hop record of 2020. You know,

it really wasn't what it was until the deluxe version came out. And so, you know, I think with where, I think with like where they're at, like they don't really exist. Like artists just kind of need to be in the news now and there's really no incentive to hold back B sides. And, so I think what we're seeing already are more EPs. I think we're seeing more one-off singles, like more demos, just being put out there in real time. And maybe as, I don't know, live music or things get closer back to normal, you might see artists just try to bundle them. And so they can get reviewed. I don't think we've seen, I think that this part is very much in flux right now. and we're not going to have a yellow lead better, you know, whatever you're...

Right. Whatever... I mean, I think we can use yellow led better as like a frame of reference, given the guy, you know, given Richard pointed out like he, you know, foo fighters, Cole play, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam. Like, he's one of our people. Right. Yeah. Yeah, just the idea of like, I guess like, because, yeah, there's always going to be songs that, like,

didn't make it on a record that are going to be, like, you said, position as like, non-album tracks. But like that romanticized idea of a B-side, which is like a song that is maybe off the beaten path that you have to like dig for a little bit, that I think was a product of the physical media age. And again, I think there were great things about that. There's also things that if you don't have nostalgic attachment to that era, you can easily criticize it and say that it was bad Because it's like, you know, why wouldn't yellow lead better or acquiesce or, you know, Starla or whatever? Like, why couldn't these songs just be available? I mean, Starla is a bad example because that was put on.

Pisces is scarier. But, you know, so it's both things. And it's something, it's one of the many things that if you're an old person, you can feel bad about going away and no one else will care. Let's pivot now to our main topic of discussion in this episode, which is looking back at indie R&B, alternative R&B, PBRNB, all hipster R&B, that whole thing, which occurred that as a fad, I guess, really kind of begins 10 years ago. Yes. And we're talking about it because this week marks the 10th anniversary of one of the big records, I guess, of that scene or movement or whatever you want to call it, which is the self-titled debut. by James Blake. There was also, of course, the weekend's halftime show, which we've already talked about.

Weekend, of course, being a big artist associated with indie R&B, and now he is, I mean, can we just call him the biggest pop star in the world? No, I mean... No, because I don't think he's bigger than, like, say, Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Rihanna, but he's definitely up there. I think he's bigger than Beyonce at this point. I mean, like, Blinding Lights is, like, I think closing in on two billion streams. I mean, Beyonce, I think, is more famous than him.

But in terms of like statistics, like the weekend, I think, is, yeah, maybe second the Taylor Swift. He's for sure like top three, top five pop stars in the world. Yeah. Which is like an incredible path for him over the past decade. Mind blowing. That he's taken. But what is indie R&B if you're not familiar with it? Well, it was basically like this gaggle of like non-connected artists that really kind of came, I think, into prominence around 2011.

That put out records that intersected indie rock, R&B. R&B and electronic music. And I feel like it diverges from mainstream R&B, at least of that time, in terms of like the disposition of like a lot of these artists. Like they were more sort of introverted, not really interested in like creating like obvious pop hits. You know, not very like, I guess like it's not like dance music really. It's like very insular. I think that like in terms of like the indie influence, I feel like Bonnie Vare.

Oh yeah. Was a huge thing on these artists. It's sort of like if you wanted to make your cabin record, but instead of referencing like folk music, you were referencing like 80s and 90s R&B. Like that seemed to be like the sort of nut shell description of how you could talk about a lot of these artists. I actually looked up anisio above a think piece about indie R&B from 2011

because he was writing about this and he had a list of like records. that came up from 2011 that he associated with this. And it's a pretty interesting list because some of these artists are still, you know, very well regarded. You have Frank Ocean on here, nostalgia ultra. You have Solange, say for the time being. Obviously, she's really big. Janelle Monet, the Arc Android.

Oh, man. The weekend, obviously. James Blake is not on this list, which I think is interesting. But you have, but then you have, like, how to dress well. You have active child. you have Oh yeah those are

Jay Davey Not a negative Yeah you're You're a big Hot-A-Dress well fan I know I know you're about to go there Well I'm not gonna

I mean look I'm kidding that I mean you and I come from this Come at this I think from a slightly different perspective There were some artists Associated with this That I actually quite liked

Like I actually liked House of Balloons The first weekend Loved it Album I thought the next two that were released under that trilogy umbrella, I thought they were

much more hit or miss. House of Balloons, I think, really holds together well. I reviewed Nostalgia Ultra for the A.V. Club, and I really like that record, the Frank Ocean record. Wow, what a time capsule. Yeah, you can look that up. How to Dress Well, I did not like really at all.

James Blake, to me, I revisited that record this week, and I liked it more now than I remember then. And I'm curious to get your thoughts on this, and just in general, but like I think the thing with James Blake that bothered me and still bothers me a bit now, though not as much,

was his voice. Like, um, and this is too strong of a word, but I'm going to use it anyway. There's something kind of pathetic about his vocals. Like a, like a sniveling kind of quality

that I, that I found really kind of repulsive at the time. And it really turned me off. This sort of like, I'm almost trying too hard to show how emotional or how sensitive I am, where it becomes off-putting, you know? And I feel like that was a hallmark of some of these artists that I always, it just turned me off.

And to me, it kind of separates it from, like, mainstream R&B, which typically has been defined by, like, great singers, you know, who are really strong and out there and, like, came from, you know, sometimes like from a gospel tradition but certainly from like a more sort of like continuum of like great R&B singers from like the 60s and 70s and then moving that into the 80s and 90s whereas James Blake didn't have that quality

it was more of like this kind of quivering almost like like a cool James Blunt type voice that I just found repulsive I got a lot of levels but that's kind of been influential this decade yeah yeah I mean well first off I just got to say, like, the Midwest is, like, really coming out.

It's like for that, well, I don't want to sound like overly mean, but I find your voice to be pathetic and, like, just so physically repulsive that I'd jump out of my skin, but bless your heart. Yeah, it's actually funny. Like, back in the day, like, a really, you know, a really common thing to do was to, you know, a really common troll move was to confuse James Blake and James Blunt. But, yeah, it's it. I think the reason that James Blake wasn't put in that list, which is otherwise, like, really on point and comprehensive.

You know, in addition to, like, just kind of indecensibilities, I mean, you had you know, you had Frank Ocean covering Coldplay, you know, the weekend sampling Susie Sue and Beach House, like a couple of rap artists from that time were sampling Beach House and Cloud Rap and such. But like, James Blake came from more of like, in 2010, you would actually maybe call them like Dubstep. Like, this is Dubstep before Dubstep became like Dubstep. and he was on R&S records.

His EPs in 2010 were really kind of abstract electronic music. And when the 2011 record came out, like it's one of those albums that even at the time, you know, it's like this is going to be kind of an important mile marker going forward. And at the time, I remember I was like a ground zero for this stuff at Pitchfork. And like I remember having like a conversation. with other guys there

where it's like it came out around the same time as cut copies Zonoscope which is of course their kind of lesser follow-up to in ghost colors which is one of the greatest records of its time

but I remember the I like Zoniscope too though Yeah Zonascopes got It's solid It's got jams Yeah solid record And I remember at the time

There was just the Like the conversation seemed to go Like well I think we actually like this cut copy record better, but we know that like the James Blake one is more important in a way. And I think that's kind of held up, you know, over the years. Like when you look back at, I listen to this record as well very recently, James Blake self-title. And yeah, there's that that vocal affectation that I think

Boney-Vare definitely also has some blame for this becoming like one of the dominant singing nodes of like the 2010s. But, I mean, it holds up in the, there's like some incredible songs and others that I just cannot remember 10 years later for the life of me. An interesting thing that people had pointed out, you know, when it celebrated its 10th anniversary, is that it somehow did not make Pitchfork's top 200 albums of the decade. Which, yeah, like surprising, right? Because, I mean, Wu Life did.

I think Wu Life's a better record, but. It's one of those situations where you would think, like, oh, this is, this meant signify that, like, James Blake has, you know, fallen from grace as an artist or that he's not important, which is actually not at all the case. I think when I listened to that album most recently, I'm going to, this is the only way I would compare it to Nirvana's nevermind. But when I hear that record now, I just get inundated with the presence of. all the terrible music that it inspired. It's so hard to set. Like, you can obviously tell that he's more skillful and more innovative on that front. But, like, I just think about the next couple of years, particularly how everyone just kind

of was doing that cut and click kind of vocal sound or throwing in those, like, non-quantized drums. And also, like, with James Blake, just the fact that he made, like, pretty boring music going forward. He became much more conventional. And I think where we get the reason we can talk about him as being in this realm of indie R&B is that, you know, you had mentioned like when this stuff was first getting started, people were getting to Colplay and Beach House and so forth. But like James Blake really got adopted super quick into a lot of indie R&B slash rappers, like kind of coderies, you know, like he was he was guy hanging out with like Tyler the Creator um you know chance the rapper I think

those two lived together in LA um uh and so forth and so it was kind of hard to be honest in a way about like how boring a lot of his music became because it it became kind of an it's like well if you don't like James Blake you're not down with what the kids are listening to and that's why I found it also interesting that we also celebrated the 10 year anniversary of Tyler the creator's yonkers, which is, that's, that was like another major pivot point where you could kind of sense the critical narrative of the 2010s going from like criticism to like cultural coverage, you know, trying to interpret what's going on rather than trying to guide the conversation. I want to go back to like what you were saying about like how James Blake's

record didn't make the pitchfork top 200. And my theory on that is that I think that the knock against indie R&B in the moment was that people who are actual fans of like mainstream R&B looked at indie R&B almost as a way for like indie kids to like launder R&B music into their realm. And it was like, why don't you just listen to like real R&B music? And I feel like that argument really won out as the decade war on where I think a lot of people maybe felt a little embarrassed that like you couldn't just listen to like regular R&B music that you somehow had had to like apply these like indie aesthetics in order to make it

acceptable to listen to, which is what makes like the evolution of the weekend, I think really interesting to me because yeah, if you listen to his early records, it does seem to be using pop music as a reference point in this more sort of indie realm. And then as he goes forward, he goes from using pop music as like a reference to actually making pop music. And I guess the big transition for him would probably be like the beauty and the madness, that 2015 record where, you know, that's the record like where, you know, I can't feel my face that's on that record and like the Hills is on that record. The Hills to me kind of sounds more like House of Balloons era weekend, but it just sounds like way bigger and better.

By the way, it's beauty behind the madness. I think I said Beauty and the Madness. But he's beauty and the madness too You know, he's got both of those things But anyway But I feel like that was his transition from like I'm this indie guy who's sort of referencing pop music To like I'm actually going to make monster pop jams And that leads all the way up to

You know, where he is now And I have to say like I'm not the biggest weekend fan In the world but like I actually really liked his halftime show Like visually I thought it was interesting and just hearing all of his hits together, it really shows like, yeah, this guy can play stadiums. And, like, it is totally credible doing that because, like, these songs are enormous,

and they work really well. I think his albums for me tend to break down a little bit beyond the hits. But, like, you know, referencing a conversation we had last week, like, a weekend greatest hits record, I think, is pretty undeniable. Which exists now. Yeah, exactly. I saw that on Spotify this week.

this week. It's pretty undeniable. I mean, and so it's been really interesting seeing him transition from like the indie R&B world to just like the pop world where other than Taylor Swift, I feel like he's maybe the biggest thing right now.

Yeah. I think what's interesting with the weekend, someone pointed out that like for someone who's like that ubiquitous, like his songs are actually like he's like one of the least annoying pop stars. And like, like it's hard to describe that quality, but it's like, oh, yeah, that song sounds good.

Like, it's, they're everywhere and yet they never quite feel as like, you know, oppressive as a song that gets like two billion, like literally two billion Spotify plays can be. But yeah, with the weekend, his trajectory is not all that different than a lot of the people that you had mentioned already, like how to dress well or Autosunavu, where they go from this more like kind of vaporous post. Drake sort of sound to like actual pop music. And the fact that like the weekend could stick the landing, like, I mean, let's, artists like that coming from an indie world. Like I actually, I actually remember, um, I love like for, I, I was like first getting off drugs and alcohol, like getting sober in March of 2011, which is like funny because like the house of like, I loved house of balloons maybe because I could live vicariously through

it. Um, and I loved the, I loved all three of them. and I also reviewed Trilogy like in 2012. Like that's how long ago a lot of this indie R&B stuff was happening. We're like guys like you and I could be relevant enough to review it. And also like after I reviewed trilogy like not 30 minutes passed by and 40 one of the producers like emailed me like saying how nice that was. Like that's how long ago this stuff was. And now 40 is probably like living in like a diamond encrusted like houseboat in the Bermuda somewhere.

I mean, I'm sure he's like a gazillionaire. I mean, going back to Frank Ocean, we haven't really talked about him that much. And we don't have a lot of time to talk about him now. But, like, he is someone who actually hasn't gone that weekend route of being, like, a huge pop star. Like, he is now, like, the most sort of celebrated. Well, he has, I mean, has, I mean, he hasn't made, like, anything like blending lights. He hasn't made anything like that, obviously, kind of going for the goal. I feel like he's been the guy that he can.

go on Saturday Night Live and perform with John Mayer. But, like, he, I think still has that sort of untouchable mystique where his power comes from not doing the pop thing. And he's this reclusive sort of genius that people just revere because they feel like he does whatever he wants to do. So he's kind of, like, in his own solar system, in a way, kind of away from everyone else. I kind of feel like, too, like, did Frank Ocean just steal James Blake's stuff? under too?

Like did the, did, was that like a market correction as far as like channel orange? Because I feel like, I feel like he took over the like introspective, quiet like indie R&B lane. Just hijacked it and like James Blake never had a chance after he made channel orange. I think there,

I think there's room for both obviously. Like, I mean, James Blake is still like, he's not at the level of say like Frank Ocean, but he's still like enormous like for someone of his like coming from where he's from. just think that, you know, now I think James Blake might actually be going more that route. Like he seems like have a bit of celebrity going on and a desire to like interface with the

public. I think like, like, Channel Orange was just so huge. It could, it would blot out basically anything else that was going on aside from like, say, Kendrick Lamar in 2012. But like, also, James Blake, he was, you know, on that record with, was a King's Dead from the Black Panther soundtrack as well. So that kind of just shows James, like, the level of, like, James Blake infiltration into pop music. I think he's, like, more just kind of seen as this, like,

a collaborator or this a bit of a status symbol James Blake is, because, like, when Haysap Rocky would have a guy like James Blake on his record, it's like, wow, this guy must be a polyglot genius, man. Like, he listens to Tame and Paula and James Blake. Wow.

Like, that's just unheard of. But I think it's indicative of like how rap and R&V and like indie whatever you want to describe it as have like kind of merged where you know it's just like the most normal thing in the world to have a guy like that on your record but I mean I think that like in the new decade maybe James Blake is able to like reinvent himself as I don't know like kind of a normie pop act in a way like not like Ed Shearer or James blunt but like just the guy who you know has hits that are kind of corny. and he gets like super popular with like an audience that has like no has no concept of like what it was

like to listen to, you know, clavier works or the bells or that 2010 stuff. I think he's got it in him. Well, we'll see. Ian's betton big on James Blake for the 2020s. I love it. We'll have to check back in 2030 to see how that played out. We've now reached the part of our episode called Recommendation Corner where we each talk about something that we're into this week.

Ian, why don't you go first? So, you know, after an entire episode of like talking about like the most ubiquitous, centrist, universally beloved stuff on earth, I have to be true to myself and true to the people who, you know, probably listen to Recommendation Corner for my recommendation and bring up a, I would say, very divisive in a small niche type band called For Your Health. They're from Columbus, Ohio. I would identify them as Screamo. They've got kind of an edge lord sort of Twitter presence where I imagine there are just some people who are not going to like them based on what things they've tweeted.

But their debut record in spite of comes out this Friday. And there's a band I'm going to talk hopefully a lot more about in the coming year called the Blood Brothers. Perhaps you might remember them from the early 2000s. One of the guys in Blood Brothers eventually joined Fleet Foxes. but they were this abrasive, kind of spastic screamo art rock band that had tight pants and white belts. And if you're like 18, it can be the most profound, like, oh, this is the sickest music ever. And then by the time you're 24, you might be like, I want to listen to something that doesn't make me so anxiety provoking.

But, you know, for your health does a great job of like doing the Blood Brothers SaaScore type continuum. them, but also they have more of a political edge and like a fallout boy sort of style of humor. One of their song titles is I slept with West Isold and all I got was this out of court settlement. It's a reference to fallout boy. And it's the kind of music that I think I listen to it as a reset when things start to see and trend too much towards centrism. It's like I try to listen to the, you know, the nice folk stuff coming on.

I try to listen to the UK postpunk. But in actuality, sometimes I just want to. stuff to tear shit up to. And for your health is one of the better examples of that that I've heard in quite some time. It's it's very abrasive, very angular, but also there's some like real actual hooks to it. And so yeah, and it takes about like 20 minutes of your time to listen to. So for your health, in spite of on 12 gauge records, yeah, I think that's, if you like the kind of stuff I've talked about here in the past, like portrayal of guilt and whatnot. Like, this is the next chapter for you.

So the record I'm going to recommend this week is called Deep Fried Grander, and it's a collaboration between friend of the podcast, Riley Walker, and this really great Japanese psychedelic band called Kikigagu Moyo. And I hope I pronounce that correctly. But this is a record that these two acts, they collaborated on in 2018. And it's basically like two jams that last about 18 to 20 minutes or so. And it's just like a really great record. And I guess, like, you were talking about how, like, I want to listen to Screamo records

when I'm getting a little too bored with, like, centrist indie rock. I tend to go more in this direction where it's just sprawling, awesome guitar music that has elements of, like, a post-rock in it, but also, again, kind of come from that psychedelic angle as well. And I have to say that, like, I hadn't listened to a ton of Kikagagu-Moyo before this record. and it actually got me into their older records. And I really, really like them a lot. And I'd say the thing about them is that, like, if you hear psych rock, you might have a certain idea of it coming maybe,

coming more from like a garagey type school, kind of like louder and maybe more abrasive. And with that band Kikigayu, Moyo, it's much more velvety and, like, and groovy. And, like, it just sounds great. It really kind of sounds like, again, like sitting in this, like, plush velvet chair and just letting these like great grooves and guitar lines wash over you. And of course, Riley Walker is, you may know him from his Twitter feed, but in a way,

I feel like his Twitter feed almost like overshadows his music a lot of the time. Because in terms of like artists that you could classify as like indie jam, you know, artists that are sort of in the indie world, but also play really exploratory live sets and really kind of explore guitar music, I think, in a much more adventurous way than like most of indie bands do. Riley to me is like one of the best in the business right now. He actually just announced a new solo record that's going to be coming out later this year called Course and Fable, which I've been fortunate enough to hear already. And, you know, if you follow Riley, you know that he's a big fan of the band Genesis, especially like the Peter Gabriel era from the 1970s. And like

Course and Fable is where that influence really comes into play. It sounds like selling England by the pound. Like that era of Genesis or like, Lamb lies down on Broadway, trespass, like all those great Peter Gabriel Genesis records. Raleigh's really drawing from that. And he's like found a way to like really kind of make it his own.

That's a great record that I'm sure I'll be talking about later on this year. So, but for now, definitely go on band camp and get that record deep fried grandeur. Great record, great guitar music. I want to point out, I want to point out that it's on Husky,

his label Husky Pants Records, which I think is one of the best album type, one of the best record label names I've heard in quite some time. Yes, fabulous. Also, I have to do a quick shout out. On Up Rocks Today, a story just posted. I did an interview with Craig Finn and Ted Kubler from The Hold Steady, where they talk about each of their albums. It's sort of like an oral history of their complete discography.

So I think it turned out great. If you're a fan of the band, definitely go check that out. They have their new album, Open Door Policy. that's going to drop next week, which we'll probably talk about on this episode, and I'll argue with Ian about it. That'll be a lot of fun. What a very on-brand recommendation corner for you, man. Actually, for both of us, yeah, the Screamo, the velvety psych rock that's inspired by Genesis,

and now we'll hold steady story, man. Our brand is strong. I love it. Well, thank you all for listening to this episode of Indycast. It's always a pleasure sharing news and views and reviews with all of it. you. We'll be back with more discussion next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.