Indiecast - We (Finally) Answer Some Listener Emails

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

Steven and Ian open this week with an extended dialogue about an ongoing war at concerts, especially ones featuring aging artists -- the "sit down!" people vs. the "I'm not gonna sit down!" people (0:55). Who is right, and how can this be resolved? This also do a "yay or nay" on The Lemonheads, whose frontman Evan Dando has a new memoir out (11:44). Then they answer listener emails about college radio (19:12), the proper set length time (31:22), the preponderance of "deluxe" editions for recent indie releases (40:35), and the first "great" indie album (48:05).In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about the band Some Images Of Paradise and Steven reflects on the 1977 British documentary All You Need Is Love: The Story Of Popular Music (53:44).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 265 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprocks's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to IndyCast on the show we talk about the biggest indie news of the week. We review albums and we hash out trends. In this episode, we answer emails from you, the IndyCast listener. My name is Stephen Hayden and I'm joined by my friend and co-host. He's not going to sit down at the show because he wants to dance his butt off. Ian Cohen. Ian, how are you?

Yeah, perhaps like the Sigur-Ross orchestral show is not the right to. time and place to bring back the Tootsie role. Oh, man. Yeah, that was probably did not go over well with the Cigar Rose community there. You're just dancing your little tushy off, Ian. That's what I hear about you at shows. My joke there in the intro is in reference to a story that I loved from this week. I don't know if you saw this Ian, but this was on stereo gum.

This is a newswire brief about an incident at a Jeff Tweedy show that took took place at the Buskirk Chumley Theater in Bloomington, Indiana. Of course, we all know about the Bus Kirk Chumley Theater. It's the Apollo, Mass. CBGVs, yeah. CBGBs, and then the Buskirk Chumley Theater. Isn't Chumley on Pond Stars? Isn't there Chumley on that show?

I only know that because Bob Dylan was on Pond Stars once. I did not know that. And there's a guy in there named Chumley who asks him to autograph an album. Anyway, this is from Stereo gum. Two factions within the audience engaged in a loud war of words, as Uncut explains it, one side argued that the dead crowd, the dead, meaning not the Grateful Dead, but apparently not very excitable crowd, needed to increase its energy by getting up to dance, while the other complained that seated patrons couldn't see due to others standing up.

A classic concert conundrum, is there something tense happening? Tweety reportedly asked from the stage, I appreciate you asking me as if I'm the one in charge, I just work here, sir, end quote. He later responded to more shouting from the audience with the quip, we're not going to indulge in any of this balderdash, end quote. I love this story because it is like the, I think Chris DeVille wrote this story.

As Chris notes, this is a classic concert conundrum, but it's particularly acute at like middle-aged person, concerts, which I'll just define as like any artist over the age of 35 playing in a theater, where you have the sit down people and you have the, I'm not going to sit down people. And the dynamic typically is that you have the majority of the people want to sit down because they're older individuals and they've paid for these seats. But then you've got a minority of people, maybe only about 5% of the audience. And that's all it takes, not that many, who insist on that.

standing up during the show and they're dancing around. It doesn't matter what kind of music it is. Could be very mellow music that you don't think you'd have to stand for. But these people stand and they're adamant about standing. They don't feel any of the social pressure to sit down. Because I think most of us feel like I'm going to do whatever everyone else is doing. If everyone else is standing, I'm going to stand. If everyone else is sitting, I'm going to sit. But then you get these rugged individualists, the Henry David Thoreau's of our time. who don't care about the crowd and they're going to stand

because they paid for their seat that they do not want to sit in and they're going to dance and it just creates an underlying it's like this underlying tension that I've honestly felt in every show like this. Do you don't know?

Is this something you've experienced? I feel like every show there's like a couple people that insist on standing and you just feel the hatred of everyone around them. and no one wants to confront that person but they are just like staring into the back of their skulls

just like burning holes into their skull with their death stares and then sometimes it does come to blows or at this concert you know people were actually were confronting each other and yelling at each other but I love this conflict I hate it too because I don't like the tension but I think it's an incredible thing Yeah, I mean, I think the first question we got to ask is, you know, what would it look like to dance to Jeff? Because, like, we're not talking about Wilco. We're talking about Jeff Tweedy.

Exactly. These are Jeff Tweety solo cuts. Maybe he's playing an occasional Wilco song. But yeah, these are Twilight Override, his recent triple album. I assume he's digging deep into that. And you have these people, like the 47-year-old person, they're dying to dance to Twilight Override songs at the Bus Kirk Chumley Theater. Yeah, because I think about the last time I actually saw Wilco was in 2023. It was right after cousin came out, and it's in this beautiful Santa Barbara theater.

Shout to our mutual pal, Jamil. And everyone was seated for the first few songs of the set because they were playing cousin songs. And then they played, I'm pretty sure it was handshake drugs. And then half to three quarters of the crowd just stands right up like it was ACBC doing Thundersruck or something. And then they sat back down when it was over. And then that just more or less repeated itself throughout. It didn't matter what's like church. Yeah.

I'll take your word for that. It's like you're in church. We're going to stand for the hymn. You're going to sit down for the reading. You stand up for another hymn. Yeah. Actually, that's how it works in synagogue too. Exactly.

Yeah. But it didn't matter what they were playing from like Yankee Hotel or Ghostsborn. Like people went relatively nothing. It was kind of annoying. You know, it's just like choose one. And that dynamic really gave this air of discontalienable. comfort for what was otherwise, you know, a Wilco show in one of the most chill cities in America. See, but like I, but to me, that's not the same kind of tension because I think most people at a

concert, you feel just a natural instinct to go with the herd. So like if everyone is standing, you're going to stand. If everyone is sitting, you're going to sit. Where the tension comes in is when you get the people, I mean, if one person is sitting and everyone else is standing, there's no tension there. But when you have like the like the group of people who insist on standing, and they're usually very aggressive about it. Like they, and I tweeted about this this week, uh, and it was funny to me because most of the replies were people saying, well, you never sit at a rock show. Like I would never sit at a rock show or I'm team standing up. And of course those people are vocal because they are the most aggressive people. I think the silent majority,

though are sit-down people at these shows. They want to sit and they hate the people that stand. Now, I mean, look, I feel like if you buy a ticket, you should be able to stand if you want. I understand it's boring. If you're excited to see a band and you want to feel more sort of engaged with the show, I do think that if you stand, you are automatically more engaged than if you're sitting, which is more of a passive thing. So I understand those people. I'm not attacking those people. If you're one of those people listening,

I'm not attacking you. I'm just saying that everyone hates you. When you stand and everyone else is sitting, like everyone hates you. And I don't, I kind of admire those people for not feeling that hatred. I feel like I would feel that hatred. And it would cause me to sit down. They have the fortitude, though,

or just the obliviousness where they don't. don't care and they're just going to stand even with all of the sort of tension around them going on yeah absolutely and i think there's i i feel like if you're at like an arena rock show or like a stadium show then yeah you stand up because it feels more akin to a sporting event where right you know you're whether or not you are standing up actually does kind of impact the energy of the ants on the field but if it's you know like the wilco show or the siga ross show i saw where it's like a seated theater. It's like standing up during a movie, like thinking that, oh, yeah, this is going to, like,

help the car chase or whatever. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it. And of course, like, people are, like, kind of joking. It's like, oh, Jeff Tweedy, like, you know, it's not, like, knocked loose or whatever. But, yeah, last year, closest I ever saw to people throwing down at a concert happened at a Sarah McLaughlin show, because, you know, this one very aggressive standing up person. doing like her Stevie Nix dance in front of people who paid like probably like a couple hundred bucks

to see Sarah McLaughlin go through uh go through her album um and yeah they almost came the blows it had to get broken up by a beefy security guy it's always at like the show like that it's never at knocked loose it's never at like turnstile it's always at the show where like people paid X amount of money for like the one concert they're going to go do this year and they're not going to let some joker mess it up. That's the thing. Yeah, we talk about, oh, Jeff Tweedy, why would people get angry at a Jeff Tweedy show? And you're right, these hardcore shows where people are slamming into each other, they have nothing on the threat of violence that exist at these, like, older boomer shows. The older boomer shows are way more tense and have way more potential for violence,

like real violence, than a hardcore show. Because, you know, people are slamming into each other at knock loose or turnstile, but they're not doing it out of anger. You know, they're doing it, they're having a good time, and everyone there is having a good time. No one really wants to hurt anybody. You know, even if you're acting aggressive,

it's part of the sort of theatricality of the show. It's all in good fun. Whereas at these boomer shows or these middle-aged shows, there's like genuine hatred, and there's like, I want to, like, rip your head off. Like, I saw a fist fight breakout almost at a cross-ed, Cosby Stills and Nash show, like 15 years ago, between these two old hippies, you know, they looked like they were both in their 60s because one guy wanted to stand up during

wooden ships or whatever. And the guy behind them wanted to sit. And they were yelling at each other. They were jawing at each other during wooden ships. And it was like, this is way more, you know, contentious than any punk show you'll ever go to. I mean, the sit down versus stand-up people, that is a... blood feud that will never be resolved, I don't think. It's just ongoing forever. It, uh, I don't know. It's dangerous at these shows. Yeah, we need like the Wilcoe World Star or

whatever, you know, just have like, just like people like shouting out like World Star in the middle of, uh, in the middle of kid smoke. Yeah, man, just keep the peace. All right. You know, go with the, go with the herd. I know that's not a good thing to encourage people to do, especially, you know, the rock and roll mentality. You don't just go with the herd. You are an individual. But, you know, respect the people around you. If they want to stand, respect that.

But, you know, if everyone's sitting, be cognizant of that. Don't block people's view. Everyone wants to have a good time. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, feel. In this holiday season of goodwill. Yeah, feel free to stand up. Just don't do it if you're next to me.

Yeah, exactly. Let's get to our, yeah or nay segment here. This is something we do for the kids, for the IG, for the TikTok. This is actually coming from one of our readers. We haven't done a mailbag in a long time. And we're doing a lot of emails today. We're long overdue. This is the thing that always gets cut from our episodes.

We always have a mailbag, but we always run long talking about something at the beginning of the episode, just wasting time. And then we run out of time to actually engage with our readers or our listeners, I guess, in this case. So long overdue to do that. This comes from Joe in Baltimore. He writes in, I just finished Evan Dando's memoir, Rumors of My Demise. Throughout the book, he talks about the relationship between the Lemonheads and rock journalists. He beats himself up for being too honest with journalists, as with his infamous crack press junket ahead of Come On Field of Lemonheads. That's where he talked about, I guess, smoking crack.

It is often frustrated by the mismatch between how he saw his band and how labels and critics saw them. How do you guys feel about the Lemonheads in their 90s heyday and how do you feel about them now? Good question. Let's say yay or nay the Lemonheads. The Lemonheads, a classic 90s indie rock band or a pretty boy with a lot of drug problems. Yay or nay, the Lemonheads, I'll go first. This is a band that I think is really fascinating because they've had a couple of different careers. If you look at their early days, they came out of Boston in the 1980s and they were this punk band. They were contemporaries with groups like Dinosaur Jr., like really loud guitar music. But then by the time they entered the 90s, they really refined the songwriting. The melodies became more pronounced, the production cleaner.

And Evan Dando, of course, was this great-looking guy. So as Alt Rock really exploded, he was poised to become a big star. In 1992, they put out what I think is their best record, which is it's a shame about Ray, which I think totally holds up as like this amalgam of punk, alt-rock, country, and folk music. Unfortunately, after the album came out, Evandando became like not a A-list alt rock star, but definitely, you know, on the tier below that. But unfortunately, he was better known for his, you know, extracurricular activities involving drugs, involving dating various women. And by the time of Come on Field of the Lemonheads, which I think is also a good record, I feel like he had this reputation as being like a pretty boy drug casualty, you know, which was like a lightweight. reputation really. And that's really followed him, I think, for the next 30 years. I haven't read the book

yet. It sounds really interesting. I've heard mixed things about it. I've heard it's also kind of a mess in terms of the pros, but he's definitely had an interesting life. And I think he has a case for being misunderstood. At his best, Evan Dando, I think, is a good songwriter. I think the Lemonheads have at least a couple, like really good records that hold up that are worth revisiting. So I can't really speak to the recent Lemonheads albums. I haven't really dug deep into them. But in terms of the classic work, the albums that people remember, it's a shame about Ray, come on field of the lemonheads, even some of like the records they put out in the 80s,

like Lick. I think they hold up and they're worth revisiting. So I'm going to say, yay, on the Lemonheads. So a few years ago, I reviewed a reissue of Come On Feel the Lemonheads, which is hilarious for people of our age because if you were alive in 1993, you couldn't give that album away. It is one of the quintessential album you find at least two or three copies of in every used CD store. You bought it, but then you sold it. That's how it ended up in those UCD stores.

Very true. I mean by 1994. And you're right in that they've had a really fascinating career because they started off as kind of like a dinosaur junior ripoff band, like one of the many in Boston. And then they became one of those, you know, Buzzbin, one hit wonder on an album that's actually way better than it's one-hit wonder stuff. baddest might indicate, you know, I think about Belli's Star or the Breeders' Last Splash. And then Evan Dando kind of became the inspiration for Jordan Catalano for my so-called life. I mean, maybe not, but there's definitely a lot of Dando and Catalano. Him and Eddie Better, I feel like.

Okay, yeah. A combination of those two. Right. And, you know, as you alluded to, by the 2010s, 2020s, kind of like Belly and the breeders, you would hear a lot more lemonheads in contemporary indie rock because indie rock became sort of like, it's a shame about Ray. You would hear a lot of, you know, earnest embrace of country, of folk, kind of scrappy indie rock. Like, it's a shame about Ray could have came out on run for cover, especially because it's from Boston.

But yeah, Evan Dando, he's kind of a tragic figure, but also a lot of like, you know, self-induced errors. I've heard things about the shows. and I've been hearing them for about 20 years. You know, he's like getting in fights with Jawbreaker and just playing these really hard-to-watch shows. So I'm going to say yay for their brief time of the spotlight, and that includes card button cloth. I just hope that Evan Dando finds peace and sobriety,

fascinating band, and one that really kind of pointed the way to what indie rock would end up sounding like, more so than, you know, maybe Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins, although there's a lot of that there too. Sounds really fresh. It's a shame about Ray. So yay for me. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point.

I feel like that's true of a lot of bands that are not the top-of-line bands in their era. They end up getting claimed later on and having an outsized influence. The Lemonheads, I think, were definitely a band like that in the early 90s. I think of a band like Third Eye Blind in the late 90s, where if you were alive or you were paying attention to music in the late 90s, in the late 90s. Third-Eyblind, they were a radio rock band that weren't really taking that seriously. And then 20 years later, you start to see younger people referencing that first third-eye blind record all the time and they treat it like it's an important album of late 90s rock. And you're like, what? That band? But, you know, that's how music history is written. It's not written by the

people paying attention at the time, it is constantly reshaped by subsequent generations that rediscovered this stuff and then they put their own, you know, footprint on it. So yeah, I think the Lemonheads, I don't know, have you heard anything they've done in the last 10, 15? I haven't kept up. I've not, but I think that now they bring up third eye blind, the bigger question since we got to go rivals mode is, who do you think would win in a fist fight? Stephen Jenkins or having dando? Because you do, they do. They do. do seem like two people who would cross paths and get into a fight or be best friends. I mean, Stephen Jenkins strikes me as someone who stays in better shape, but Evan Dando

would probably have more of like a scrapper's mentality. Yeah. You know, like Stephen Jenkins probably doesn't want to be hit in the face, whereas Evan Dando would get down and dirty. So I'm going to take Dando. Same. Stephen Jenkins would call security for sure. He's that type of dude.

Like Dando, he's, he's seen some stuff. I think he would be a scrapper. he'd probably fight dirty so I think he would win that would be an incredible fight though I would love to see that let's get to our mailbag like I said we haven't done this in a while

we have a big backlog to catch up on Black Friday special yes please don't let that discourage you though please keep writing us emails we will I'm sure be answering them in the episodes ahead we do have some fun stuff coming up

obviously year endless season we're going to have the cast these again. But, you know, otherwise the release schedule is really drying out. So we need some emails and things that we can engage with. So please head us up at Indycastmailbag at gmail.com. Ian, you want to read our first email. Absolutely. So, wow, it's been a while since I've read an email. I know, man. We're rusty. I just read the email from Joe in Baltimore. It felt good. Yeah. All right. So hi, Stephen and Ian. Both the New York Times and Minnesota Public Radio ran pieces recently about the apparent resurgence and value of college radio. Were either of you ever involved in college radio?

And do you have any important memories from that time? And do you have thoughts on where college radio stands today? Cheers. Love the show. I'm assuming it's V and not five, a listener from the Twin Cities. Oh, well, if they're from the Twin Cities, it could be nine, you know. my favorite Vikings quarterback of all time. That guy rocks.

I hope he's there for nine seasons. Nine. Just lock him in. Did you see either one of these stories? I didn't read those. They didn't come across my transom. Yeah, I did not. I was unaware of it, but I did check it out. And look, I think these articles probably get published every two or three years,

or like every five years, and they're exactly the same, because the music writer who had warm memories of college radio finds out that college radio still exists and kind of wants to show in a spotlight on him. So, yeah, I mean, it seems cool, but I'm curious, because I know my... I mean, like, what do they say? Like, was there anything new in these stories

that indicate resurgence? I mean, they view it in the framework of, you know, post-pandemic, streaming economy, AI, and, you know, here's, like, the human touch. right um right and they meant they allude to some exact from domino records having signed a band off hearing them on college radio they don't say who it is i would love to know but you know it does what you would expect where it talks about like the you know the people who have these like really unique and bespoke uh you know radio shows where there's one where they play nothing

but um artists that identify as women um you know like there might be like spanish music from the 1980s, just like the wild and weird world of college radio that I think they mentioned that it's still existing, whether or not it's thriving. That's a little tougher to say. But I do see bands, I do see bands and labels on Instagram post about like, you know, the latest The Beth's album is clocking in at number five on college radio. I mean, I think it's probably still an important metric, but I mean, we're not finding like the new REM as far as I'm concerned. But, you know, Yeah, I mean, what was the college radio scene like? Because I've mentioned my college radio experience.

We'll get more to that. But I'm curious about yours, whether you were the college radio guy. I wasn't involved in college radio when I was in college. Funny enough, I had a show on a local college radio station when I lived in Appleton when I was working there in the 2000s. The school there at Lawrence University, shout out to Lawrence. they would let people from the community do shows in the summertime. So I had a show with some friends of mine in my 20s. And I did the stereotypical thing one year where I was engaged to somebody and our engagement ended.

And I went on the air with an enormous thermos filled with a screwdriver. And I just played sad bastard music for like two or three hours. I just played like George Jones songs like on a little. loop. Very high fidelity quoted there. But I didn't do it in college. I feel like you had to be in like a radio class in order to be on the air. You had to have some sort of broadcasting major or take broadcasting classes. So I didn't do that. I did work for the TV station in college. And I did host a music show, which I think I've talked about on this show. I think I talked about this recently because I interviewed Ian McKay once on the air.

wearing a leather jacket because I thought that was a very rock journalist thing to wear. Another time I interviewed massive attack outside of First Avenue on the mezzanine tour, that was kind of cool. But no, otherwise I didn't work for college radio, but you did, right?

So I worked for the radio station while I was in college, but it wasn't exactly the college radio station because at UVA, that's WTJU. And that's where guys like Steve Malchmus, Rob Sheffield, James McNew, one of the guys from Dave Matthews band, and the guy who founded Jaguar were DJs. I was at 919-WNRN, which was, you know, it's non-commercial listener supported.

Like, we had to read the ads ourselves. Like, 91, brought to you by Mincers on the downtown ball. I can still do it 25 years later. But for the most part, we played alternative rock, and there was like a little bit of DJ choice that went into it. You could choose, like, a number of pre-selected songs from any album. And, you know, we had, I don't know if it was Clear Channel at that point, but we had A, B, C rotation. We had to do the thing where after 9-11, there was a list of songs we couldn't play, like, blow up the outside world or bodies or killing an hour by the cure.

And we play, like, Nickelback in Lincoln Park alongside the shins or whatever. I actually had the, my first shift was from, like, two to five in the morning at one point, which was insane because, like, you would have call in. And someone called in after hearing the callings wherever you will go. one of the worst songs I ever heard. And they were just talking about how sad they were because their girlfriend had just broken up with them. Maybe that was kind of call you were looking for when you were doing your own show's thing.

But, you know, I feel like that experience was far more formative for me than working at a more traditional college radio station would have been because, yeah, I mean, it would have been more, you know, cred-heavy if I was, you know, spinning dismemberment plan or whatever. But I did get the burnt copies of Incomus Morning View and POD satellite months in advance, and it delayed my dissent into insufferable

snobbery by at least their year or so, and it gave me an appreciation of the band Hours, that's OURS, that lasts until this very day. I mean, maybe it's cope to say that, but yeah, I loved working at 919. It was so much fun. But when I lived in Athens, Georgia, I did actually do a show on WUOG, which is the actual, like, UGA College Radio Station with a friend of mine. We did a show called Viewpoints where we, we like picked a few topics and just like rambled for 30 to 45 minutes and Noah would ever call in. It was kind of like a proto indie cast, except we talked way more about like 3-6 mafia. Wow. I like radio. I have a lot of affection for it when I've been on the radio.

When I did my first podcast, Celebration Rock, we recorded that at a local radio station because that podcast was associated with a rock station here in Minneapolis. So I was in a radio studio. I really like being in that environment. There's something very romantic about it. I like how resilient radio is as a medium because radio rises to prominence in, you know, the, I guess, first third of the 20th century. Then movies come along and television and it survives.

mediums then you obviously have the internet and radio is still hung around you have streaming and people always talk about radio being dead but it hangs on I think because of the human element of it it's similar to how record stores are diminished obviously but they're they still haven't gone away even though there's no reason for record stores to exist in terms of convenience the reason why record stores exist is because they offer for at least some people a super experience to streaming, which is very convenient, but it's only about convenience. There's nothing aesthetically pleasing about streaming music. It's a very cold and sterile way to discover

things, as opposed to going out into a physical space where you are surrounded by all this cool stuff, cool records, and you find things, you can touch it, you can just find something by rifling through a stack and you see a cool album cover and like that is something that's still really fun for people to do. I think listening to the radio and hearing a cool person on the radio talk about music and then play a song that maybe you haven't heard ever or maybe you haven't heard it in a long time. That's still something that I think there's something very organic and warm about that that allows that to survive against the odds. You know, the technological odds are stacked against these media, but they survive anyway because people decide that they want to

keep it going. So I'm in support of that, college radio. Keep it going. I do think it does feel almost like a boutique thing at this point. There's maybe like a novelty to it, especially if you're in college now and you've only ever been in the digital world. I imagine it must feel refreshing to go to a radio station and play records and engage in something that feels like it's part of the real world and not just like inside your computer. Yeah, I mean, I do have fond memories of being kind of a captive audience.

And that's true whether we're talking about college radio or just even being in like the supermarket and hearing till I hear it from you by Jim Blossoms for the 80 billion time. I mean, like, I do think it's much cool. It's a cool experience where you listen to a rate, you're just not sure what you're going to hear because like there's something you know i of course enjoy picking out what i'm going to listen to on the way to work but um yeah i think like you're absolutely

right in that college radio will always exist it won't be the kind of influence that it was it won't be a taste maker but uh it's always going to find people who you know like that and it is refreshing it can feel almost like kind of countercultural in a way that hasn't been in a while just because it's definitely counterculture yeah i think I think it definitely is because it is counter to the dominant way that people discover music. I mean, like now more than ever. Yeah, it's not, it may not have necessarily the promotional poll that it did in the 80s, but in a way it's more of a counterculture now than it ever has been.

Like if you don't like streaming, or not even if you don't like streaming, because I stream music all the time, but I don't want to just do that. Like if I was just streaming music and I wasn't like buying records and hearing music that way as well, I think I'd be really bored with music. I think it would, the experience of it, the culture of it would feel dead to me. And that's not true for everybody. You know, a lot of people don't care either way. But like I think there's no culture to streaming. There's a culture to radio, I think.

And that's what I think draws at least a certain kind of person. to it. Absolutely. And those are the people who usually ask to interview us, you know, for their college newspaper or whatever. That'd be amazing. I love talking to those people, for real. I love it. I love it. Let's get to our next email. This comes from Adam in Toronto. Thank you, Adam. You know, I've been listening to a ton of Canadian music lately. Just throwing that out there. I just watched recently a documentary about the Tragically Hip four-part doc that's on Amazon. Really, really good movie. It came out last year.

Listening to Bruce Coburn. Got any Bruce Coburn fans out there? Good stuff. He's great. The, like, 0.2% of our audience that are Coburn heads are flipping out right now, because I dropped a Bruce Coburn reference. Blue Rodeo too, another Canadian man Anyway, lots of can rock in my playlist lately Hey gents, this past week

This would have been a few weeks ago I saw Cindy Lee perform at Massey Hall in Toronto It was incredible However, the show was just 53 minutes long And of the 15 songs played Only seven of them Were from their two hour long breakout album Diamond Jubilee

As we were leaving, I heard a lot of people expressing disappointment at how brief the show was, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel the same. I'm well aware of that Patrick isn't super keen on performing live given past comments. I feel like a caged animal. That's from Ian Cohen, the San Diego show review from Stereo Gum, and having canceled their last tour seemingly due to stage fright slash mental health concerns. That said, do you think an artist has an obligation to play for it? for at least an hour during a headlining tour.

I think so, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. By the way, please come to Toronto for your respective book tours next year. I'd love to. Yeah. Could someone in Toronto, like, offer me to come out there? I have a book coming out in September of 2026. I'd love to come to Toronto. I love Toronto.

Really cool city. Anyway, go J's and keep on sports casting. That is from Adam. So Adam, you saw Cindy Lee at Massey's, Hall, that'd be amazing. I've never been to Massey Hall. I've just heard of it. Yeah, Neo Young, Japan droids made albums there. Yeah, it's

I mean, I've heard in this tragically hip documentary I just saw, they referred to it as the Grand Ole Opry of Canada. So, I mean, it's no, what was that? It's no Buskirk Chumley theater, but it's pretty good.

It's the Buzz Kirk Chumley Theater of Toronto. But no, he saw Cindy Lee at Massey Hall. And he said it was an incredible show, but it was only 53 minutes. And he's wondering, is that too short? What do you think, Ian?

Yeah. So, yeah, and, you know, thank you for quoting my stereo come piece on the Cindy Lee tour last year. Everyone's got a link to it and how, when they talk about Cindy Lee playing live. And I think that was the first time I had broken news in a live show review since one year

I went to Coachella and saw a little B perform and he announced on stage that his next time was going to be called, I'm gay. He changed it to I'm gay, parentheses, I'm happy. But what I remember from that Cindy Lee show was that they also played for less than an hour, and we all got home before 11 p.m. on a Friday night. Yeah, that was awesome. No complaints here. And everyone at the show seemed to really love it, too.

So, you know, it gets to give a question in general about what an artist, quote, unquote, owes to us when we go to the show. like it kind of pairs nicely with the sit down stand-up thing um i don't think that even i i don't think that every band i see do a headline show i don't know if i want to see an hour's worth of music for them um and a lot of bands like you see at a headlining show don't have an hour's worth of music like for example i've seen joyce manor probably more than any other band in my lifetime and you know an hour long show which is like 25 songs from them uh is a lot i don't need a two-hour Joyce Manor show. A hardcore show, don't need that to be an hour.

I think the type of artists that you're seeing dictates what kind of show you would hope to see. Also, whether it's seeded or not, how often they tour. When I saw Deftones do Dea Dealer's Deftones, yeah, I wanted to see like two hours and felt kind of disappointed when it was only 18 songs. But when I saw The Cure, I'm like, yeah, this has to be three hours. And it was. So Cindy Lee, I'm a little surprised, just kind of given how much. much music they have. But also, you know, it's a Cindy Lee show. You're, you're like,

being there thinking, are they going to like walk off? Like, I think it adds this element of surprise. And, you know, I'm okay with it, especially because, you know, whatever gets them out on the road. Yeah, it's interesting to me how precise Adams count for the show is. It was, it was 53 minutes. So I don't know if you had the stopwatch out where you knew down to the minute, how long the show was. I mean, you said that the show was incredible. Like, would it have been even better if it was 61 minutes or 72 minutes?

I mean, I think, to your point, more isn't always better with a show. I think sometimes there are artists where you don't want them to play for two hours. A shorter show might be better. I tend to think that, like, a tight 75 is ideal for most artists. Like, if you aren't a legacy artist,

artist with a long career, 75 minutes can be really, really satisfying. Now, having said that, I mean, I understand where Adam is coming from here because I do think that if you're going to a venue like Massey Hall, which isn't a club, I mean, that is a nice theater. I think there is a different set of expectations. I think of Cindy Lee, if you went to see this show at, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to think of, what's that famous club in Toronto that, what's that called? Do you know Toronto clubs?

I absolutely do not. That's the ball is all I got. There's a famous one, like, kind of like in the downtown area that I'm just Googling it as I talk here. Adam's going to have our ass. He's going to have like a huge follow-up email to us. I'm totally blanking. Oh, the El Macombo, that's a famous one. But that's not what I'm thinking of.

I'm just looking. There's a list here of famous. Horseshoe Tavern. Is that the one I'm thinking of? I don't know if that is it. Lee's Palace, that's the one I'm thinking of. If you're at Lee's Palace, you have different expectations. I think a 53-minute show would hit differently.

I think at Massey Hall, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Cindy Lee to play for at least an hour, if not 75 minutes. You know, not only because of Diamond Jubilee, which as you said is two hours long, I mean, there are other Cindy Lee records. So there's certainly not a shortage of music that could have been played. played. There is also the mitigating circumstance, as you alluded to, to just Cindy Lee being a reluctant performer, if that's the right way to put it. I mean, it's amazing that this show took place, and it sounds like musically, it went over great. I heard a recording of Cindy Lee's show in Chicago, which was at a much smaller venue, I think. I think it was at the empty bottle in Chicago, which that has to be a capacity of 200.

250 at the most. Yeah. When I saw Cindy Lee, it was at like the soda bar in San Diego, which is like a 200 cap room. So at Massey Hall, that's a pretty big show. I'm sure Cindy Lee has a set rehearsed. And, you know, they just might be used to playing smaller menus. And that's the show that they have.

I don't know what it is. But yeah, I do think, like, if you're in an arena and you've paid $100 for your ticket, I think the expectation. are different than if you are going to a smaller show. So it really depends on the situation. But again, we had this conversation, I think, I don't know if that was last year where Jack White had this thing about how he doesn't feel like he has to play a super long show,

that sometimes a really long show is counterintuitive. And I do think that there is a bit of a mentality now, which again, I understand because tickets cost so much, that people just, like, want more. They want a longer thing, just like they want like a longer movie. You know, like the movie should be, every movie should be like two and a half hours. You know, like every comic book movie should just be padded out, you know, because you're paying so much for a movie ticket. And it's like, I'm paying so much for this concert ticket.

So I need like three encores and I need, you know, got to play for two hours. And that's not always the best thing. But in this case, yeah, I get it. That's a little bit of a short show. So I understand where you're coming from. But, you know, it sounds like. it was great. I'd love to see Cindy Lee. I haven't seen Cindy Lee yet. Hopefully they'll come to Minneapolis. Maybe they'll play a three-hour show here in Minneapolis and I can break about it.

Let's get to our next email. I'll read this one. This is from Greg in Edwardsville, Illinois. Seems like every month I am seeing more and more indie albums come out with a regular edition and then a few months later, a digital-only deluxe edition with anywhere from two to six or so extra songs, live versions, demos, etc. On one hand, I'm all for supporting the artist and getting more music from someone I like or an album I like, but I don't like having to buy the album again, sometimes paying more than I did originally for just a few extra tracks. And it's hard for me to believe that they are getting a lot of brand new purchases of the album this way, leading me to ask, who is this for?

Not sure if this is a gay or nay question or not, but where are you two on these deluxe editions? Greg from Edwardsville, Indiana. That's a good question. I mean, I'm trying to think of albums that have done this. The Lucy Dakes album, I think, was recently reissued as a deluxe. Blondechelle, her record was. I actually recently bought, this is Laurelize album, Box for Buddy, Box for Star. I bought the expanded version of that album that came out last year.

So there have been a bunch of these. Am I missing any? Can you think of any others? I mean, there's been a lot of them. Yeah, it's also like, you know, C-tier types like Samia or Samia, however you pronounce it. But I think that's what really stood out to me. It's not just, you know, like your A-lister's putting out deluxe versions to juice the streams or whatever. But it's the sort of like people who get like a 7.2 from the person who's like,

that's their first buyline at pitch four type artist. the post-punisher wave um so yeah we're seeing that and then they have to like it's also funny because then you see the PR people like try to excise these like pull quotes from these very modest reviews um yeah i don't quite know who it's for um uh i also don't like the i like this is just maybe like an ocd thing of like when i pull up an album on apple music and they initially do the deluxe version i like scroll down and find the original one just because I want it to be 12 songs, how I remember it, not 17.

I don't want to listen to the version of lonerism that has Led Zeppelin stuck in the middle, the song name was the worst one. Would they put it in the middle of the record? That is, I think, a no-no. That shouldn't happen. Yeah, converges all that we love, we leave behind as another main offender of that.

But, yeah, I'm interested in this as like a business venture rather than an artistic decision because the fact that we see so many artists, especially ones that don't have a real financial incentive to do so doing it. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm a person who just wants the album to be done when it's released. Like when you release it, it's done. You got to wait like 10 or 20 years maybe so we can review it from a different period of time. But I don't know if this aligns in any way with Taylor Swift breaking sales records for having like 34 variations of her new

album. Maybe that's what's happening here, but it's just weird when you see artists on, you know, indie labels doing this sort of thing. We also, I also think we have to like bring up the elephant in the room, which is that, you know, this alongside like the concert ticket things, more often than not, we're probably not paying for them. You know what I mean? So I think we might feel a little differently about this. Well, I did just, like I said, I just bought the expanded version of, this is Lorelei record and it's just because I hadn't bought it previously and then they

reissued it and I don't care that much about the bonus tracks there is like an MJ Lenderman version of dancing in the club which is kind of a cool song. That's so good. I mean that's not why I bought it but it's a good addition to the record. I mean I don't think it's related

to the Taylor Swift stuff which I think is just pure like milking her audience and juicing her stats Like she is in her steroids era right now of just juicing her numbers and just trying to like stay on top of the charts by re-releasing her album over and over again. The way I look at this, and I could be wrong, but I think the reason why this happens is that it's a way,

and I don't think it often works, by the way, but I do think that the attempt is to put these albums back in the conversation, at least for a little bit, because albums just come and go, so quickly now that if you don't have an excuse to bring up a record again, they can feel like they're here today and gone tomorrow. And it does strike me that some of these records didn't feel like they were especially beloved when they came out and now they're coming back and maybe it's an excuse to revisit them or reconsider how people feel.

I mean, I guess the Lucy Dacus record, Love is a Feeling. That's the title, right? I think it's Love is a Feeling. Big a sure. It's what it's called. That struck me as an example of that. It just felt like this record kind of came and went. Some people liked it.

I feel like the general feeling about it was not hugely positive. Forever is a feeling is the name of it. So it reminds me of what happens with older records a lot of the time, where older records get reissued. And, you know, people complain about the nostalgia market. Like, oh, you're just trying to, you know, get old fans to repurchase the records, which I think is the case. I think sometimes that happens.

But also, I think a big reason why older records get reissued is that it's a way for younger audiences to rediscover them. You know, that when the replacements put out, let it be again. Or they do their re-mixed version of Tim. There's a whole other audience out there that might know who the replacements are, like they haven't really listened to them ever and now there's like this fresh wave of media coverage that puts them back in the conversation and it's an excuse to listen to those albums and that is a tried and true way to keep a brand going is by reissuing the records it is interesting that it's now happening it's such a quick turnaround now that we're not just doing that

with albums that came out 30 years ago. We're doing that with albums that came out like three months ago or six months ago. But I really think that that's it. That it's an excuse to treat an album that came out fairly recently and almost give it like a second release. So. Yeah, I agree with that. Especially now that like, you know, we're headed towards year end. Let's see then we get emails from like PR companies or label.

saying like, hey, here's all the stuff we put out this year. Keep us in mind when you're doing your end list and you look at it. It's like, man, that came out this year, I guess. Yeah, I mean, heck, maybe we need to give forever as a feeling a second chance. And, you know, that's going to be its, it's going to be its own categories in the Indycastees. You know, the album that we dismissed early on, but the reissue gave it the bump we need. All right, let's get to our last email once you read this one, Ian, it's a short one. What do you consider to be the first great indie album?

Thanks for the pods. They're such a great way to keep connected with music without having to stare at a screen. Long live sports cast, Scott from beautiful British Columbia. Yeah, another Canadian. So what do you consider the first great indie album? So I wrote about this. I stole this question for a column that I wrote on Uprocks. This ran a few weeks ago at this point.

But this is a chance for you to answer it here. I mean, in my column when I wrote about it, I love this question because it's very simple. but it's also complicated at the same time because he's not asking like what is the first indie album he's asking what is the first great indie album so you have great which is a subjective term you also have indie which i think it's also a subjective term in a lot of ways i mean indie it denotes a business relationship i mean that's how it began you know are you independent of the corporate record structure but unless you are like a guy in his 50s who was buying black flag records as a teenager, that's not really how it's defined now. I mean, the indie is much more of a,

it signifies a certain sound, a certain vibe. It's very broad. So there are certain records that you could say are indie rock that aren't maybe technically indie rock. So anyway, getting back to it, I have my answers, but I'm curious for you, Ian, what do you consider to be the first great indie record. Yeah, I mean, there was a meme on Instagram, not even a meme. It was actually, like, I think a pretty earnest way to describe indie rock as having started with the Velvet Underground, even though, like, even then they were, like, on a major label. Right.

But I think the, it's such a broad question. It's tough to wrap my mind around, but I think, I think of it more of, like, what our first indie album was. I remember my brother brought Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain off, like, a Rolling Stone review. And I actually saw them with him during the Wowie Zowie tour. But I don't think I had a concept of what indie rock really was or even that that term existed. I don't even think I was aware of indie rock until I started reading Pitchfork in like 1999. I was like 19 years old.

So but when I when I think about it in retrospect of like what indie rock means to me, at least in terms of aesthetics or a cultural movement, it's probably not the first great india. But like murmurs got to be the answer, right? I just feel like college rock and indie rock were two different things but nonetheless this one just feels kind of right from the gut, you know? Yeah, so like when I wrote my column

I had a bunch of different choices. One of them was the Velvet Underground because they do define a lot of the aesthetics that people associate with what indie rock is. That first, the Velvet Underground and Nico, the debut album. But they're not a technical, indie rock band and they were on MGM records so they're not of the independent world necessarily so that

would maybe be a way to negate them i think the modern lovers record that jonathan richmond did i mean they were on an indie label that's another very influential record i think you could maybe make a case for that i also did i mentioned murmur as well i mean they you know they were on irs so they were an indie band they embody i think a lot of the things that similar to the velvet underground that if you were picturing an indie rock band that kind of sound and look like REM. So I think that's a good choice. I was thinking about this with myself in terms of like when did I become aware of indie rock or what was the first indie rock record I bought.

And I was thinking about pavement, you know, sliding in and enchanted, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, guided by voices, one of my favorite bands of all time. But I realized that the record I bought first from Matador was Exile and Guyville was fair, which I feel like is not talked about enough as like an indie rock touch now. I mean, obviously it's a very acclaimed record. But Liz Phair isn't necessarily the de facto indie rock artist in the same way that pavement and guided by voices are. Like if you're talking about like 90s indie rock. Exile and Main Street is a big record, but it's not like a quintessential indie rock record like Sin and Enchant it is.

But like for me, I think, because that record came out in 93, which is, before Crooked Rain and before, you know, Alien Lanes, which would be, Crooked Rain is 94, aliens is 95. So, like, this fair is like a little bit before that. And I bought that record because, you know, she was on the cover like Rolling Stone. That was Whip Smart era. I remember that cover. Yeah, I know, but I'm just saying, I mean, but that's like the following year.

I mean, it all was kind of rolled together. I mean, she was getting a lot of press attention in 93. and then like Whipsmart came out like maybe a year later. It might have been even like a less than a year after Exxon Guy Bill. But I feel like that has to be mentioned too in the conversation as first great indie record. A gun to my head, I think I would still say the Velvet Underground and Nico. It's kind of the predictable choice. It's not actually indie rock in terms of the business relationship of the band.

But I don't know. It just fits the bill for me. Either that or murmur. I think murmur is also a good choice. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner, where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? So about a week ago, Gareth from Los Campesinos, DMM, and asked if I've heard of this band called Some Images of Paradise, and he put one of those exploding head emojis after the message.

And when they make a suggestion, I listen. Their taste is nearly flawless because it aligns almost exactly with my own. And other than, you know, Los Campesinos likes it. them. There's almost no information about this band and their record, which is called I Expect the same of you. It's just the letter you print style. Aside, they're from like Limerick, Ireland, and their first three band camp, you may also like choices are The Caretaker, the Hotel Year, and Los Campesinos. And it's actually pretty accurate. It's a very interesting album sonically. You know, there's some ambient lo-fi emo, like a la Weather Day or something like that. There's some Screamo.

some circa 2000 Scottish post-rock. Just a lot of interesting sounds and something I always get something new out of every time I listen to. I think this is a record that just because of when it came out might rank inordinately high on my year-end list and I look back a year later. I'm like, oh, what was going on there

because of recency bias? But yeah, it's really cool to hear something that's out of nowhere. So the name of the band is Some Images of Paradise. The name of the album is I expect the same of you. So this week on Uprocks, I wrote a big column about music documentaries talking about some of my favorite music docs of all time. And the reason why I wrote it or I published it, I guess, this week is that the Beatles anthology, the big career spanning documentary multi-part film that came out in the mid-90s has been re-released on Disney Plus. It's been digitally remastered so you can actually look at it on a big screen TV and it looks really good. They also added a bunch of stuff.

And it just made me think about how Thanksgiving weekend is maybe the unofficial music documentary holiday. Obviously, you have the last waltz that's totally associated with Thanksgiving. I watch it every year on Thanksgiving. I've written about this. But you also have these two big Beatles documentaries that also dropped originally during Thanksgiving season. You had the Beatles Anthology, which originally aired on ABC back in 1995. during this weekend. A few years ago, you had Get Back,

which debuted during Thanksgiving holiday and was a great watch during that weekend. And I just think it's a great weekend. You have a four-day weekend. It's pretty laid back. Obviously, there's a lot of sports going on. But I think it's also a great time to watch

music documentaries, and you should check up my column. I think I definitely included some movies that not everybody has seen and that are available to watch online. And one film I want to single out in particular that I think is really fascinating and isn't talked a lot about when people talk about music documentaries. It's called All You Need is Love, The Story of Popular Music. This is a 17-part series that originally aired on the BBC in 1977.

And as the title implies, it's a very ambitious documentary about the history of popular music basically in the 20th century. So along with talking about like rock and pop music, there's episodes on country, on R&B, on jazz, on ragtime, on swing music, on the roots of modern music in Africa. It's all over the place and there's so much great footage in it. It's shot on film and they're interviewing people that are long dead and people that you've only read about in history books. Like people like Hogi Carmichael is interviewed in this and all these great kind of Tin Pan Allie's singer songwriters, or I guess they're just songwriters, are interviewed in the film.

And it's a fascinating movie for a lot of reasons. It came out in 1977, like right before punk and disco really exploded in popular culture. And those two genres really transformed music more than any others for the 50 years moving forward. I mean, disco obviously feeding into hip-hop, punk rock influencing every form of guitar-based music, really, that we've had. since then. So it kind of captures music right up until that point. Like what music history was like before those genres came along. Fascinating series, highly recommend, great time capsule. You can see it for free on Tooby. So go on Tooby, check it out. Just a bounty of riches there awaits you in this film. And check out my column for other documentaries. There's a lot of great music docs out there to check out.

So I highly recommend that. I want to bring this full, I want to bring this full circle because you mentioned Hogi Carmichael, who lived in Bloomington, Indiana, specifically when the Busskirk Chumley Theater opened in 1922. He was a, he was a student at the University of Indiana. So Hogan Carl Michael might have had the first sit down stand up controversy there. Damn. Yeah, you can't stay seated during a Hogi Carmichael concert. You gotta dance to Hogi, that's for sure. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Indicast.

We'll be back with more news, reviews, and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie Mix Taped newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie, and I recommend five albums per week, and we'll send it directly to your email box.