Indiecast - What Do Year-End Lists Say About The Music Trends Of 2025?

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Steven and Ian begin with a quick tangent about the intersection of conservative newspaper columnists and music podcasts, and whether it will ever happen on Indiecast (1:52). They also do a Sportscast on the failing Philadelphia Eagles and Steven's revived hatred of the Chicago Bears (7:53). Then they pivot to a conversation about year-end albums lists, and what they say about the prevailing trends of 2025 (16:48). After that, they check out the just-announced Bonnaroo lineup (39:40) and do a "yay or nay" on Nick Cave (50:00)In Recommendation Corner, Ian talks about LA indie-sleazers The Hellp and Steven stumps for the Australian improv trio The Necks (53:51).New episodes of Indiecast drop every Friday. Listen to Episode 266 here and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can submit questions for Steve and Ian at [e-mail], and make sure to follow us on Instagram and X (formerly Twitter) for all the latest news. We also recently launched a visualizer for our favorite Indiecast moments. Check those out here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Indycast is presented by Uprox's Indy Mix tape. Hello everyone and welcome to Indycast. In this show, we talk about the biggest indie news of the week, review albums, and we hash out trends. In this episode, we check in on Year End list from around the globe. And we also perused the just-announced lineup for Bonarue, 2026, and we yay or nay, Nick Cave. My name is Stephen Hayden, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host.

He's happy to welcome our very special guest, Tucker Carlson, for a discussion about Lo Stukunaka, Ian Cohen, Ian, how are you? Yeah, when I saw that New York Times podcast was welcoming a conservative op-ed guy to talk about Taylor Swift, I did not do what a normal person might, which is consider doing the March Simpson. Music is none of my business thing for the rest of my life, no. A normal person would not make a Simpsons reference. That's something you would do immediately. That's not something a normal person would do, but go on.

Yeah, but, you know, because I'm a sicko, I actually had to look to see if there was a YouTube of it because I did want to see the exact moment that the soul leaves their body when Ross Duthot of all people starts talking about NBA young boy. But instead, the first thing you see in this video is John Caramanica eating very loudly from a bag of potato chips like he's Cameron and paid in full. You know, people do conservative popcast every day, but you'd be all right. And that scene is such a 40 to 50-something rap nerd thing that I have to assume it's like a coded cry for help and a hostage video. It is grim, it's grim, man. I mean, I made a joke about this. There was an announcement, you know, popcast, one of our peers in the podcast space hosted by music writers in their 40s. So, I mean, this is our demographic, very specific.

They had a promo this week because the latest episode of Popcast, very popular music podcast, more popular than our podcast, we should say. They have Ross Douthit, conservative columnist from the New York Times as the guest, talking about Taylor Swift and Sidney Sweeney. And, you know, I had to have fun with it

because, you know, Ross Douthit on Popcast. It's just sort of a funny... Ross Douthit, he's like a right-wing guy. He seems like a nice guy. I've seen podcast that he's on. He seems like a... you know, whatever. He's not like a fire breed.

He's not like Megan Kelly or something. He seems like a pretty whatever type columnist. He's not even like Brett Stevens level of columnist, but of crazy columnist. I thought it was funny though. And this, I love, and when I say I love, I mean that I love to make fun of the crossover of music and politics. Like whenever you're on social media and you see the politics person talking about music,

it's just a tee up for like the worst thing you've ever seen. I mean, just like the worst opinion. And I think it's because politics people, you know, it's such a definitive cut and drive arena. You know, you're pontificating on these subjects. And there's so much writing on puffing up the most hot air to make it seem that you are the most persuasive person. and not that there isn't a lot of hot air in the music criticism space, but it really throws in the stark relief how much more hot air there is in politics. So like when the politics people apply that template to music opinions,

I just feel like it's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I'm not going to go hard on the podcast people, though, because they are, you know, we are in the same space. We got to pay respects to the other people in the game. I do wonder, like, if the New York Times is applying. pressure to do some sort of cross pollination, cross promotion, like, hey, can you have Ross doubt it on your show? And then maybe he'll have John Caramanica on his show to talk about,

I don't know, like the Fed luring interest rates or something. I don't know what he'd be on for. But, because I don't know if you saw this recently, the New York Times, they ran this feature on like the bops of the year or whatever. Did they call it the bops of the year? Probably not. But it was something like that. Like your favorite song of the year. And they were asking all these different people, including people like Ezra Klein. Like they asked Ezra Klein, like what his favorite song of the year. I just thought that was a bit curious.

I can only imagine that he said that there was an abundance, if you will, of bops. Or that the illiberal left is trying to prevent an abundance of bops. And we have to lower regulation so that there could be more bops. in the world. We should have allotted 20 minutes at least to talk about what's the most abundance coded song of 2025, like which song is most about like cheap housing or like having things in orbit that can send us Amazon Prime packages. Yeah, but yeah, the political guy. I mean, look, J.D. Vance was probably listened to the same stuff I was in 2005. He's a known shins and death cab guy,

but I do appreciate like Ross Dutha on there, kind of looking exactly like you would expect in New York Times, conservative op-ed columnist to look like. Well, he's wearing the jeans and the new balance shoes. I didn't watch much of the video, but I saw that part. And he's wearing like the vest. The three-quarters dip, I think.

Right. Barry one battle after another, like the Christmas adventurers. I feel like they all wear that same, you know, that best. But yeah, more power to them. And look, man, maybe we'll have Brett Stevens on the show to rank favorite indie albums of 2009 or something. We're trying to get that CBS news money. You know what I mean? There's a lot of money out there.

Yeah, Barry Weiss can come on and we can talk about, I don't know. What would Barry Weiss be into? What kind of music thing Barry Weiss likes? I have absolutely no. I know what kind of music she would not like. So maybe we can get, like, we can break rank and have her on, like, to break our no guess. policy and just to also have an all-hater policy. Maybe she would appreciate the white stripes because they are socially liberal, but they're

musically conservative, you know, like they believe in restraint. So maybe she would be in, because she is sort of on the left. She's like a conservative lefty, maybe. I don't know. I think she'd be in the Jurassic Five. You think so? Yeah, like, you know, like, I'm thinking that she, and I'm also like considering the fact that, you know, she is someone of our age,

you grow up Jewish, you know, probably like, yeah, Jurassic 5, like that's real hip hop right there. It's not about the bling. I imagine she still holds some pretty 1999 era rap beliefs. I could completely make that up, though. I actually hope I'm making it up. It's kind of fun. I just looked her up.

She graduated from Columbia in 2007. What? There's a, I would say, if I was a betting man, I would bet that she for sure likes vampire, weekend. She for sure has that first record on whatever playlist. Maybe she still has an iPod, but she would definitely be into that Vampire Weekend record. She might have even seen the Vampire Weekend guys on campus when she was there. We should have Ezra Klein, Ezra Kinegg on the show. Maybe he can say

if he ever crossed past with Barry Weiss, that'd be an interesting conversation to have. Let's get out of Popcast cast here. Let's do a quick sports cast here because your team is in shambles right now. Philadelphia Eagles looked really bad last week

against the Chicago Bears who played my team this weekend in Lambeau Field. And I got to tell you, I have devolved on social media into a Chicago Bears fan account reply guy.

Like, I'm replying now. This is how low I've descended in my social media usage. I'm reply guying to trolley Chicago Bears fan accounts because the thing is, I haven't hated the Bears for a long time. Like, I've hated the Vikings for a long time, and I've started to hate the Lions. Because those teams have been good. I mean, the Vikings are always good except for this year. Like, this year's a disaster.

I expect them to be good again because they're just. just like a well-run team. They're going to be fine. The Lions have been really good the last several years, and they've been beating the Packers consistently, except for this year. We swept the Lions. The Bears have been nothing. They've been irrelevant, you know, haven't even been worth hating. I mean, they've been like an easy win, or if we lose to them, it's like, who cares? We're not playing out of our starters. Doesn't matter. This year, they have a really good team. Ben Johnson, great coach, a bit of a worm. I don't like him personally, but I, I, I concede he's a great coach.

And their fans online, they remind me of these people like when someone who is really poor, like when they win the lottery, and they've never been rich. So now they're just spending money all the time. And when they should be putting it like in a fidelity account or something, you know, it's like saving the money. And they're just spending the money. They're just like, I'm going to be rich forever. And that's what these Bears fans are like.

They're nine and three. They've had the first two good months of their life. lives, like really in the last, you know, this season. And they're just spending money online, like crazy. And they're just talking so much. And I'm taking the bait, as I always do. I'm the easiest person to troll, unfortunately. And like, look, I think they're a good team. I think it's going to be a tough game. I'm not, I'm not going to talk smack against, I know we have a a lot of Chicago listeners here. You got a good team. I would, if I were to bet, I think we're going to split this year. I think we'll win this weekend. I think you'll probably win that

soldier field and then we'll see how everything else shakes out. But you have a good team. I think that if we can get an early lead and we can basically get you out of your running game, you have a really good core of running backs there. But if you have to play from behind and you up to throw, rely on Caleb Williams. We can lean on our pass rush. We can get a lot of sacks. That's the strength of our defense. I think that's our game. And if we can do that, I think we're going to win. But man, I'm feeling so much Chicago Bears hatred right now, Ian. I can't, it's really kind of skewed my, I have to get off line. I'm like the reply guy now. I'm a reply guy.

Yeah. To Chicago Bears fans. I've become that. It's a very distressing situation. Yeah, this is what happens when year-end lists drop at the beginning of December. We just have an entire month that leads us to doing things that we might regret, such as being a Chicago Bears reply guy. I'm not even seeing these lists because my social media feed now, the algorithm just keeps

feeding me the biggest trolls from Chicago. And I'm falling for it every time. Falling for every single one. I'm just, the smoke is coming out of my ears. I'm like, oh, man, I can't wait to play these guys. They're going to put them in their place. But at the same time, I'm not going to talk too much because I do think they're a good team. Like, I do take them seriously.

Ben Johnson, great coach, taking his shirt off now. It's like, you might want to get to the playoffs before you take your shirt off because, like, but whatever, you know, this is a big deal. You're good in December. This is a big deal for the Chicago Bears, so take your shirt off, I guess. Yeah. So we'll see what happens. happens. Yeah, it's very commanders coded, like the like the commanders last year. They were good for like the first time forever and you kind of knew it was unsustainable. But I mean, I'm not one to judge as far as like social media usage over the past week. Like I've, I hate to admit this, but I've started looking at for you because I just like to feel pain to feel something. And that's kind of how it was with the Eagles. Like, um, I guess this gets to an ethical question of when is it okay to start rooting against the team?

you like because I I just Eagles fans hate this team I think they egg Kevin Petulose house I don't know if you saw that

I heard about this yeah it's just hilarious which is just great that's so Philadelphia but you know watching this team it just reminds me of the single worst

video game experience you can have which is playing I don't know if Madden's like this but when you play EA college football before anyone puts the sliders online that adjust AI. All you can do is just run it up the middle for two yards and throw into triple coverage.

Like all of your receivers are triple covered. That's what it's looking like watching the Eagles. And it just makes no sense because it's not like they're, you know, the Titans or the Saints where there's no talent on offense. But it just makes literally no sense. I mean, also, Kellyn Moore, do you really want to deal with the Saints for the next five years? That team has no future. He'd be, like, they'd make a statue of him in the link if the Eagles average 20 points for the rest of the year. Yeah, this is just such a unfun team to watch that I almost would rather them just completely flame out as they would in 20, 23, so they couldn't convince themselves to run it back. But they're playing the Chargers this week who are just every bit of self-destructive. So who knows.

Well, and what's also funny, you talk about how misdemeanor. it is to watch the Eagles. Then you have the Dallas Cowboys who... They look great. I hate to say it, but they're super entertaining to watch too. Like, I mean, they look. They're really fun. Like, Dak is dealing.

You got like George Pickens who looked like he was going to be a disaster, but he's been amazing. And they're a fun team to watch. And it actually makes me feel better about the Packers tying them earlier this year. That seems not as bad as it did at the time. just like us losing to the Panthers. Doesn't seem quite as bad now that they beat the Rams, even though our game was at home.

I mean, we should have won that game. That in the Cleveland game, that's going to haunt us here moving forward, especially if we do split against the Bears and it gets really tight to see he's going to win this division. But I don't know. The Bears, God love you. I'm glad your team is good for the first time in like 15 years.

I actually enjoy hating you again. I, because again, I haven't hated the bears in a really long time. Just no point. It's like hating the kid that you give swirlies to every day. I mean, you're not going to hate that kid. This is the kid you've been bullying for years. I definitely hate you now. I definitely hate your fans.

I know it's the online fans. I know like the regular fans aren't like this, but your online fans, some of the dumbest people of all the time. Just idiots. Dumb as Rock's fan base. I hate you, I hate all of you. I know I've talked about hating the Eagles in the past. That's way out of my mind.

I don't even care about the Eagles at this point. Even though I do think you guys are good enough that if you did put it together, you still could make the Super Bowl. That's the weird thing about the Eagles. Yes. If they just got it together on offense, they have enough talent that they could go all the way. So I still, I wouldn't give up on them yet.

But the Bears, I hate your guts. hope we win this weekend. I'm not saying we're going to win, but I think we'll probably win. But if we lose, I wouldn't be shocked. But either way, I hate your guts, and I wish nothing but bad things for you, Chicago Bears. So let's move on here. I was about to say, I mean, I'm trying to, maybe I need to get to our listeners in about whether I should start Jalen Hertz for my fantasy team or Jackson Dard, even though Jackson Dart's brain is like at this point,

like a Los Thuthanaka album, that's all RFK Jr. quotes, you know, that's like the most concussed man in America. Yeah, yeah, but I don't know. Great name, though, Jackson Dart. Incredible. Great quarterback name. Let's get to the year-end list.

This is something that we've been checking out this week. I'm sure if you listen to this podcast, you probably are checking out Year Endless too. It's the first week of December, So this is historically when a lot of publications and websites start publishing their lists. And that was true this week. You had the pitchfork list, Rolling Stone, quietest stereo gum, consequence of sound, a bunch of paste mojo.

I guess they've already done theirs. What about the skinny? I don't know if the skinny has done theirs yet. That's the be all end all. That'll really determine what the most important albums of the year were. But my friend, Rob Mitchum, my former. podcast wife over on 36 from the vault. He every year, he does this spreadsheet where he compiles all the rankings on year end list to come up with a master list to see who's doing the best.

And I pulled his list. He's got, it looks like about a dozen or so lists on here. I'm curious to see how many lists there will be ultimately because it's early yet. There are still some coming, but we've talked about how in like, Metacritic, the number of reviews have just shrunk on that site. So, like, how many places are still left to even do year-end lists? You know, like, these institutional lists. There's individual lists all over the place, but, like, I know Rob doesn't really include

that on his spreadsheet here. But it's interesting. I'm just going to read down the top 10 here. These are the top 10 albums, according to Rob's spreadsheet, that are doing the best on these lists. Number one, we've got Geese Getting Kills. Number two, we got Wednesday's Bleeds. Number three, we got Billy Woods.

Number four, Rosalia. Number five, nourished by time. Number six, O'K.K. Lou, seven, Haley Williams. Eight, FKA Twigs, nine, Dijon, and ten clips. We talked about this last week. I did a column predicting what I thought were going to be the albums in the mix. And I feel pretty good about that column. Most of the albums I wrote about are in this top 10.

It's interesting to me, I was actually texting with Rob about this this morning. The Bad Bunny record is right outside the top 10. That's at number 11. However, that was the number one album on the Rolling Stone list, and it's number five on the pitchfork list. So Rob doesn't do this. He doesn't wait certain lists as being more impactful on the average. get scored than others, like everything is weighted the same. I actually think that you should wait Rolling Stone and pitchfork for sure and maybe a

couple others, but those two, I think, because they're the list that most people are going to look at, I think it makes that bad bunny record, like the acclaim that that's getting, it feels a little bit bigger than some of these other ones. So I feel like that belongs in the top 10 of most. That feels a little like I've seen some other spreadsheets. People are trying to horn in on Rob's domain. I've seen Bad Bunny higher, you know. Okay.

Yeah. So it's definitely in the mix. I had that in my column. The albums that are overperforming, or at least in terms of like what I predicted ahead of time, Billy Woods, for sure, which is, I guess along with the clips record, because I didn't have clips on mine either. those two seem like the go-to hip-hop records this year, which is really interesting because, like, what's the average age of all those rappers?

I know Billy Woods, I look this up, he's 47, and then the guys in the clips, they're probably around the same age. If not, maybe a little older? I mean, they're all hovering around 50. Yeah, they're all hovering around 50, I would say. Yeah, push a T is 48. Okay, so very Indycast coded here, then, like in terms of the age. so definitely on the older end

very interesting development so older rappers the nourished by time record also is doing really well which I'm happy about I'm a fan of that album that's probably going to be on my list when we share that next week but yeah I don't know I mean there's a couple different narratives here

that I think are emerging I've got my thoughts here what are your thoughts I guess just looking at these lists so far that we've seen what's your takeaways well the first thing is that you mentioned the quietest. I looked at their album of the year, which is, I believe it's pronounced Aya, her album, Hext. I've heard that album multiple times. If I've heard the quietest album of the year multiple times, that's like fell off for sure. Is that the one like with the maggots in her mouth?

I think it's worms. Yeah, it's worms. That's the one. Good record. Yeah, speaking of fell off, Taylor Swift, only at number 15 at Rolling Stone. It's kind of, it is completely jover for her as a critical favorite, wouldn't you say? Well, on all of these list that Rob compiled, that's the only list that that album ended up on, was Rolling Stone. It's at number 142 on Rob's spreadsheet. So not a shock, really. I mean, I do think it's interesting the lack of pop stars in the top 10, top dozen or so. I mean, I guess Bad Bunny and Rosalia would be up there.

But, you know, Lord put out a record this year, nowhere to be found. I guess there haven't been a ton of the A-list. There wasn't a Beyonce record this year or whatever. But yeah, I mean, can I say, is it fair to say that indie rock is back? Because on this list, the top two albums, indie albums, and even like the R&B records, like Dijon and Nourished by Time, definitely indie coded, more indie than pop. pop oriented. Very little hip hop up here.

And again, it's kind of like middle-aged hip-hop. I don't know if that says something more about the critics or the genre not having crossover stars at the moment. It could be a bit of both. Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I mean, like I've jokingly called Clips Dad Rock for a long, and that's kind of true. But we're in this interesting space with rap where it's almost like back in the 80s. and early 90s where it wasn't really known as like an album format.

I mean, in very rare circumstances it was, which is why it's interesting as people, you know, redo 80s and 90s. You'll see things like, you know, run DMC or straight out of Compton, which like are explicitly half filler, but they're just so important. So I think that there hasn't been a ton of important or just like conscientiously formed rap albums. I mean, Tyler the creator still makes them, but he put out kind of like a mini album this year it wasn't, you know, held up to the same degree as its previous ones. But yeah, with pop stars,

I mean, Addison Ray is like probably the closest thing to a pop star on the year end list. I mean, Lady Gaga put it out on that one that was well regarded. That's probably done some decent numbers. Addison Ray is at number 19, number 17 on Rob's list here. Okay. After agriculture and between deaf heavens. So like the two heavy albums that have done the best, I guess along with Turnstile, that that's up pretty high. It's interesting you mentioned those two because I was just thinking it's like are we past the era of the token metal album

on these lists but I guess not, you know? Well, it is interesting to think about and this is maybe along with the hip-hop thing because the hip-hop is also in a dormant period on the pop charts. You know, I mean, the thing about the air that we came up in in music writing is that there was always

two or three hugely successful rappers on the pop charts who also had critical acclaim. So whether it was Eminem and Jay-Z in the early 2000s, then at some point it became Drake. Obviously Kanye was in the mix. And you just had every era, and they were always conned on to do really well in year-in-liss. And we haven't had that in a long time. And it is funny that Clips was sort of from that era. and still doing well here. And Billy Woods just being the kind of indie rap lifer

who now in the past few years has been the one who becomes the rapper that you put on your list if you want to put a rap record on the list. With the heavy records, I do wonder, is that just a reflection of music, like writing in general becoming more constricted and they're just being fewer writers and that you're going to lose the people on the periphery first,

that it's going to be the specialists who are covering these more niche type things. I feel like that's part of it. I also feel like metal in general is in this extended period where there's just less interest in engaging anything outside of the metal world. It's always funny to me, like when you go online and like a big list comes out and you see the metal people complaining, like, oh, there's no heavy music on this list. And yet, I feel like a lot of these same people will also complain when they,

when there are heavy bands on these lists. And they say, well, these are like the token bands or these are the poser bands. So you can't really please that audience that's going to complain about that. I mean, chat pile, I think, is maybe the closest. They put out that record, was it like Hayden Diego? Hayden Paddygo, yeah. Hayden Paddygo, yeah. That was kind of the closest thing to like a heavy act.

trying to make an inroad to an audience that wouldn't necessarily listen to that music otherwise. Otherwise, it's very self-contained, it feels like. Yeah, it's like, we're back to death heaven. I mean, like, that record's really, really good, you know? Right. Def heaven and or deaf tones, you know, or if, like, you're a little more pop-leaning, you might do, like, Sleep Token or, you know, Spirit Box are the ones that get nominated for Grammys.

But I do think that you're right in that the main thing, like the main takeaway, at least from our perspective is that, yeah, it's like indie rock again, you know, it's not like 2009 level, but I do think that the, and we've talked about this throughout the entire year, that like the boy genius extended universe era of indie rock, like the door really seems like it slammed close on that. Like you don't see it. I haven't seen any token Japanese breakfast or Lucy Dacus appearances. I think Hayam and Lord kind of, I mean, they probably like hung on to like maybe the songs list. but yeah, it's like, this is like music and whether we're talking about, this is music that, whether it's like Ryan Davis or Greg Freeman, Wednesday,

geese to a certain extent, it all feels more rock, you know, necessary than indie. They're indie bands, but they feel like rock bands, you know. Well, I don't know. I mean, all those people you mentioned, I feel like, in a way, our throwbacks to the 2000s. I mean, to me, you know, Ryan Davis, who's he compared to all the time? Like David Berman, you know, like he's in that lane. Same thing with Greg Freeman. He's very Jason Molina coded. So that lane of singer-songwriter indie country, which has been resurgent, that was something that in 2018 no one would have put on a list like this.

I mean, honestly, a band like geese being at the top of a list feels like a throwback to me. I mean, they feel more like a deer hunter type band than they do anything that was popular in the future. 2010s, you know, just like a kind of like a regular rock band. I mean, when was that ever something that critics were embracing in the late 2010's early 2020s? Yeah, I mean, I think it's the boy genius thing. I think just like the 2010s in general, and I've talked about this many times, that there were a lot of records put out by 2010s era favorites this year from the indie world that were either forgotten quickly. or they were like openly reviled.

You know, like Tame Impala, I think is one of the big busts there. Whitney was a record that it's not on the same level as Tame and Pala, but that record was excoriated. I mean, the pitchwork review was pretty brutal of that album. And then Lucy Degas, Japanese Breakfast, car seat headrest put on a record this year. I mean, their time of being considered one of the great guitar rock bands, I mean, that seems like a distant.

memory at this point. It is funny to me how that era, you know, like that 2018 to 2023 or so, that seems a lot more dated right now than like the 2000s does. You know what I mean? Like that's going to change. You know, these things are always shifting. But someone posted all the albums that Pitchfork put at number one on their list over the last 15 years. and the ones that seemed the cringiest were in that window.

It's true with the songs one as well. I didn't see the albums one, but I did see the song one. Yeah, like the Lana Del Rey record was in there. I mean, I think that one holds up, but there's some other choices in there

that seem very specific to the time. Just going back to the pitchfork list for a moment, it is interesting to note that the number one album on their list, that Los Thucanaka record, It's at number 30 on Rob's spreadsheet. So pitchfork loved it, Pace loved it. Stereogum, I think put it at 14.

It didn't even rank on the other places. Yeah, I mentioned on Twitter that the only, even like album of the year, which I do think includes like quietus and, you know, needle drop places that don't necessarily put a number on things. The pitchfork view is the only one it has, which, you know, I'm not trying to say like, oh, this is like a bullshit album. I just think it's, you know, there was like an article about like, yo, how come this hasn't had the same sort of legs

as like Cindy Lee? You know, because it has like some similarities. It's like a very long record. It's not on Spotify. But yeah, it's, uh, it's, well, it's the least accessible album. Oh, hell yeah. They put it number one, I think ever.

I, you know, and it's had the least amount of cultural impact, I would say, by far. even compared to the Cindy Lee record. And again, I'm not criticizing that. I think it's interesting that for years, people were criticizing pitchfork for leaning too hard in a pop direction. And now they're going in the opposite way.

And then there's people saying, oh, now you're too obscure. I mean, I lean more to them. I support them going in this direction. Like, I personally think it's cooler for them to go to the mat for a record that maybe isn't even on other people. people's radar. I mean, I think that's a positive development. Even if, like, I think that's a cool record. I wouldn't put it at number one or in the top 10 on my own list, but I appreciate the boldness of that. You know, I've heard people talk about how the last few years, I think even

Jeremy Larson, who's the reviews editor, friend of the podcast, he used to listen to this show. I don't know if he still does. But anyway, Jeremy, if you're listening, shout out to you. I think he even said this online, that the last two album of the years for Pitchfork have been albums that were not on streaming services and were not, I think, even signed to a label. Or at least, you know, they're like self-release records, essentially. Which seems like a conscious thing on Pitchfork's part. It's really, you know, praising music that is truly independent, like independent in the strictest definition of the word, which is clearly a statement that they're trying to make about

where they stand right now. And I think it's really interesting. What I think is more interesting, though, is the broader story that I think is true in all of music writing probably, and even beyond music writing, maybe just in culture, which is that these are records that whether you like them or not, like the argument in favor of these albums is almost purely musical, which is a weird thing to say, I guess, for like a year-end list, but, you know, they're not making the case that this album is saying something about the culture in 2025, you know, they're not doing the thing that you would have done maybe in 2018. Like if 2018, if 2025 were more like 2018, I think the number one album would have been Bad Bunny. And there would have been a

blurb that said, talked about the Super Bowl halftime show and connected it to ISIS crackdown, undocumented immigrants, and how this album is a statement against that, and that if you listen to this record, you are aligning yourself with that cause, and that we as critics are also aligning ourselves, you know, with that cause. And that would have been the thrust of the album, along with talking about the music, but it wouldn't just be about the music. Whereas with these two album, Cindy Lee and Los Thucanaka, I mean, they're unlike in every way, except for the independence

aspect, and for the fact that they are self-contained worlds, that no one would dare make an argument that Los Luka Naka says anything about the culture at large. I don't think there's any lyrics on that album. I think it's purely instrumental. But it's such a small like, fringy

record that most people haven't heard of, and most people are not going to like. I'd be very curious to see what the adding averages for people checking out that record. And, you know, whether they love it or if it's like a what the fuck is this type reaction, which again, I support. I love the idea that they're picking a record that a lot of people are probably not going to like. I think that's pretty cool.

But it does feel like, along with all these other things that we're talking about, that era of talking about music, in a more sort of political way, at least has been suspended for this year. And you can maybe make... I'm not even making a value judgment on that. I think there's a lot of people who would say that that's a bad thing

because the world's pretty screwed up and maybe we shouldn't be resigning ourselves to that. But I think there's also a train of thought where maybe that feels a little refreshing now after some of the culture that we've had. In recent years, we kind of felt like sometimes there were albums that were like,

were okay, but they were being extra praised because of whatever was being projected onto it. Does that make sense? I mean, I feel like that is pretty clear when you look at these lists. Like, okay, we're not doing that, at least this year. I think it's true in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I think there are still a lot of, like, this is liberation on a dance floor type talk. You know, woke 2.0, like, that could still happen.

I mean, the thing with the Los Luthanaka album is that there is, like, a political valence to it. It pulls from like a lot of indigenous like Andy and folk, you know, traditions, a lot of, like, music from Bolivia. Like, if you read about this album, you'll be introduced to like genres and, you know, concepts of which you probably have like no real idea. Um, but, you know, it's not a lyrical album. Um, it's more abstract. Yeah, like, yeah, definitely it's an adventurous album. And yeah, it's pulling from a lot of different things, but it's not a pedantic record. No, not at all. I mean, in a way, in the way, in the way, in the way, that like resistance culture was. Yeah. Yeah. It's more of an abstract in the way that you're talking about. Like we're experiencing a sort of interesting cross-pollination of different types of sounds. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, okay, like I get it's like playing like Bolivian folk music on a keytar. Like that is or like not mastering an album. You know, those are things that you can point to a political

concept about it. But at, you know, at the same time it, and again, like I think people have brought up the political aspect of the bad bunny album, which, you know, is not an album that's in English. I think that is, you know, something that's like super important about it, and the fact that he didn't play in America on the last tour. So there's still some sense of things about, you know, just how music can carry political action. But I would not be kind of shocked if we took a, you know, a bird's eye view of things and people kind of recognize that it takes more kind of in the streets type action like the the revolution will not be like uh you know broadcast on like a year end list you know what i'm saying like i think people have maybe gotten a little bit jaded about that

or or that being the primary way that we process culture i think that there is exhaustion with that it's not about ignoring politics necessarily but it's also saying that um you know you can you can appreciate things for different reasons and things can have aesthetic value just for their own sake, because it's, you can enjoy a record because it's a really good record. Maybe Ross Duthot has a different idea about that. Well, yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Didn't they talk about, like, rap music on there, too? Like Trump's, and was, I feel like that was a teaser.

NBA young boy, yeah, because, like, there's some rapper, like, NBA young, like, young boy who were, like, if not explicitly endorsed by Trump, like, they have this kind of symbiotic relationship. But, you know, it's about, like, pop country and, like, hip hop. that's a little bit off the radar of critics and like Morgan Wallin and just whether there's like a shift to kind of a course conservative mindset

you know like whether Taylor Swift making a trad wife type album is like conservative inherently so but I think that's like a little bit more of a stretch you know yeah and I feel like these things already existed I mean Taylor Swift I don't think

was conservative feeling starting with this album. I mean, I think you could probably have a thread with that throughout. Not that I want to talk about Taylor Swift because we're going to get like 15 negative reviews

if we do that, so let's table that for now. Before we get to our recommendation corner and yay or nay, I did want to talk quick about Bonnaroo announcing their new lineup for 2026. The festival will be back, back here in June.

And I'm trying to remember. We did have a Coachella announcement, right? Am I blanking on that? I think we did. No, we... I had the same thought this morning, and we absolutely did, because it's like Sabrina Carpenter. Right, right, right. Beaver, Carol G.

Yeah, we did. So that's very pop-oriented. This is an interesting combination. Because, you know, Bonarue, you know, they started out in the 2000s when they rose to prominence known as they were like the jam band festival that would also have my morning jacket playing epic shows in the rain and that type of thing it was definitely more of like a beards and long hair type festival and then over time they became a little more like

everybody else but here they are and it is a little more rock oriented i think certainly than Coachella is? I mean, okay, so on Friday, the first day you have the strokes, you have gris, I have no idea who gris is. Do you know gris? My dog's name is Grizzly, so, uh, is that a DJ? I'm guessing that's a DJ. If not a DJ, like kind of this EDM sort of, like kind of a I know it's not jam music, but there is kind of a cross, like a crossover between jam friendly stuff and like EDM stuff. So I'm, I'm thinking if anything, it's probably EDM-ish, maybe. also known he is an American DJ songwriter, an electronic music producer from Michigan.

Oh. He is known for playing the saxophone along with producing funk, electro-soul, and self-described future funk. So there you go. That's what you get when you're going to Bonaroo. And then in the second line, you have Mount Joy,

Major Laser, Major Laser, the ultimate festival band. Yeah, they've been just doing it for, so long. I mean, is Diplo still involved in that? I had no idea. I just always see them on these posters. And I can't remember ever hearing like a recent song by them. Jesse Murph? Is that like a country singer? It's like country singer or DJ. I feel like that's all these things.

I'm looking up Jesse Murph. It's a dance electronic country singer songwriters. Okay, so I think a TikTok person. So all the all the important genres. country trap and R&B. And then you've got Youngblood, of course. Then Geese. Geese is in the second line

at Bonaroo. I'm a little surprised by that, although I guess just shows that they're blowing up. Seems pretty big. Then Clooney is after that? I know who that is. No idea who that is. Wednesday

also plays on Friday. They are in the fourth line between Wolf Mother and the chats. And you got Lambrini girls also on that line. Saturday, Rufus D'Soul. No idea. Yeah, my co-worker, I have a couple

co-workers who are like Rufus Delsol. I mean, I think he played at the Rose Bowl recently. I mean, it's like one of those EDM, DJ, like people, like when you go to Las Vegas, it seems like they're playing like 10 different casinos and the same night type artist.

Awesome. Teddy Swims, your boy. My boy. And the name neighborhood on, I feel like this is their first tour in a while. Yeah, they're like a headliner. Like, I didn't know they had, I mean, maybe the 1975 weren't ready to come back yet. Because they have that one song that has like a four billion streams. I mean, that's what all these lineups are determined by now, I feel like. If you have a song that streams really well, you're going to do well on these festival lamps.

And you have Alabama Shakes, Chase and Status, which I think was a detective show on TNT in the 1990s. Sarah Landry, no idea. Rainbow Kitten Surprise. I know them. We've talked about them before. I think we referred to them as like Slop, like Indie Slop on a streaming platform.

Then we got some emails from some Rainbow Kid and Surprise fans. Yeah. So they might be good. And then the last day, Sunday, Noah Khan, role model, role model against the year of role model, I guess the year of role model carrying over. in the 2026, then Kesha is on the top line?

You think? Yeah, I think so. I think that, like, she's in that, and I know it's not equivalent, but kind of like that Carly Ray Jepson sort of mode where, like, they have like a very, you know, they had like a very, like big time like pop phase where like they were like really charting. And then they became kind of more indie coded. So this makes sense to me.

Did she have a Wayne coin period? I feel like every pop star has like a Wayne coin. period. Absolutely, yeah. That's like you're, you know, between, you know, you, you have your pop moment, then you get a little indie, then you have your Wayne Coin era, and then you maybe circle back to pop music. Modest Mouse is in the third line. That seems low to me. Seems low. I mean, maybe in 2025 or 2026, it's not as low, but. Have they slipped? I feel like they've slipped. Yeah.

They've kind of slid. I mean, it's a good band to have on there, but like, I mean, it's been a very long, and shout to my boy Keith, uh,

who's in the touring band. But, um, yeah, I don't know how I, they're just like, okay, this is like a band that was like popular in the two.

I mean, I saw a passion pit on there, which is, oh, like I'm gritting by like, you know, much love to Michael, but,

uh, that could get messy. I mean, I feel like they should at least be in the second line. you know, and higher up on the second line. I mean, there was an era like where they would have headlined modest mouse, don't you think? I think they would have headlined in the 2000s. Yeah, I think in the 2000s, but, you know, what we're looking at with, you know,

Bonnaroo in 2026, which is like, you would have think that this was Coachella's headline, you know, you would think that was what was going on here because, you know, they got like the big pop artist. They've got, yeah, actually, I think not. And I retract that because Bonarou is kind of like less cool in a way than Coachella. And I guess the thing that really surprised me about this lineup is not so much that like Noah Cahan and role model are like headliner popular. But you mentioned my morning. He's playing like stadiums. I would I would expect him to headline.

Yeah. I guess. But Kesha, I don't know who's coming to Bonarue to see Kesha. But maybe I'm wrong. That feels like a stretch to me. But maybe there's people who want to hear We Are Who We Are in 2026. But how much music does Noah Kahan have?

Like, how much music does role model have? Oh, definitely enough to do a headline slot at a festival. I mean, he's, Noah Khan again, he was playing like Fenway Park two years ago. So he's a big deal. And he's one of those guys that, you know, he got big on TikTok. So I think he's got like a pretty deep. catalog and he's like re-recorded songs all the time. I mean his big record stick season, he could just play that and have enough songs. Yeah. I think I would be remiss not to mention

you know, the big emo coded thing, which is that hot Mulligan is as big of a draw as a wet leg apparently. They put a good record this year, but they're on the, I think the third line. What day? Saturday, I think. Oh, no, it's Friday. Okay, Friday, yeah. But yeah, but yeah, they're above, you know, they're above the dare. They're above Wednesday. And turnover is pretty high as well, especially if they're not playing peripheral vision anniversary set. So, yeah, turnovers over, well, they're on the same line as modest mouse.

But they're below Mariah the scientist. And something called Daily Bread. I don't look up Daily Bread. Are they, uh, I swear to God, like, this is the kind of music that, you know, with all there is, like that, like, like, when, now that my co-workers are posting their Spotify wrapped. This is the stuff that is showing up on there. Like things like Daily Bread, things like

Gris, things like Rufus D'Sousoll. You know, if it's not necessarily Taylor Swift. He's a Atlanta-based electronic and hip-hop producer and multi-instrumentalist. Does he also play saxophone? Like that other guy? I love that he's known for playing. He's just going to rip some set.

So all these festivals, it's just like a rock band and then like three guys with a laptop, you know, like coming after him. Like that's what all these are now. which I guess that'd be good I mean if you're just on drugs and you want to dance in a mud field when it's 110 degrees outside I guess that's the music you want to hear

you're 21 years old eating gummies drinking white claws yeah ripping it up I think next year like you know in January when things are like just extremely slow we should actually do like a podcast where we listen to these artists like we do a griscast we do a Rufussell's

cast, a deli bread cast. We've, well, I mean, not a separate cast for, we could just go down the list. I mean, you know, the snow strippers. I know who they are. They're indie sleighs. Are they? Okay. Yeah.

Holly Humberstone? Whalen Wallet? I love that name. I love, there's a band called Congress the Band. Not to be confused with the actual Congress. Yeah. You know, we're going to have 530. members of Congress standing on stage.

Yeah, Bonneru is the most filibuster-friendly festival of them all. All right, well, that's way too much time on Bono. Let's do a quick, yay or nay, here before we get out of here. Let's talk about Nick Cave. Nick Cave has a new album out. It's actually a live record called Live God. It's with his long-running band The Bad Seeds. I figure this is a good opportunity to talk about Nick Cave.

So Nick Cave, post-punk legend, or overrated Blow Hard, Yay or nay, here we go. I will go first. I think at the start we have to pay respect to this icon's longevity. I think he's best known now as this goth-coded lounge singer with like jet black hair and this low crunery voice. And he's, you know, occasionally doing posts about cancel culture and posing with right-wing columnist. Not rast doubt that, though. I don't think he's in the Nick Cave hive yet.

But Nick Cave, got to remember, got his start in the birthday party. This great post-punk band from Australia from the late 70s and early 80s that really made this loud and raucous and noisy music. It wasn't until he went on his own and joined up with the bad seeds that he gradually evolved into this more literate persona where he wrote these atmospheric and haunting dirges. I think he really hit his peak for me in the 90s where he was able to balance some of the noisier stuff from his past

with the more regal sound of his mature period. Thinking about albums like Let Love in and The Boatman's Call, especially, those are both great records that I enjoy listening to to this day. Since then, I think he's stayed pretty consistent, although his more recent albums aren't super exciting to me. I can respect the amount of craft that goes into it, and he's always good for coming up with a song every night. and then they'll just knock you out.

There's a song called Jubilee Street, for instance, from, I think, 2013. One of his greatest songs. So good. Also, really good live performer, again, with the Bad Seas. If you get a chance to see them, which I'm sure will be spotlighted on this live record. They always bring it. Nick Cave's a great performer, really of that kind of old school, kind of combining Leonard Cohen with, like, a little bit of Jim Morrison on stage.

So, really good artists. Can't really say anything bad about Nick. Cave, I'm a fan, so I'm going to say yay. Yeah, I mean, with Nick Cave, he's, he's sort of like Tom Waits, where if I were to, if I were to be able to free myself of decades worth of type of guy baggage, I might be into him and his stuff might go into different, my life might go in a different direction. But, you know, also, but I still don't think I'm like, I still don't think it's for me. Those type of guys exist for a reason and I'm not really into the universe that is

influence and inspired by him, even if I can admit that he really has his own thing. And it's cool on an objective level. However, Big Yee on Grindr Man, which is kind of an outlier from his more modern work, except for Grindrman too. And boy, that on would destroy Blue Sky if it came out in 2025. I do think the most impressive thing about Nick Cave in the current day is that, as you alluded to, he does have a lot of kind of Bill Maher-style, subtle anti-cancel culture type post. But he does enough, like, really earnest things with fans and talking about his stuff.

sun passing away where, you know, it does kind of balance things out. So I think it's cool that he exists. I can't imagine him not being around, but maybe 2026 I have my Nick Cave phase and I start, you know, trying to grow hair and dyeing at Jet Black and wearing like shirts that have very too many buttons that are open. For the time being, it's kind of a not for me sort of thing. We've now reached the part of our episode that we call Recommendation Corner where Ian and I talk about something we're into this week. Ian, why don't you go first? Yeah, speaking in Indy Slees, I want to talk about a new record from a duo called The Help. I do believe I talked about them last year on Recommendation Corner.

They have a new album called Riviera that came out a few weeks ago, and this band's in kind of a weird space where they were kind of lumped into indie sleeves with the DARE. It's like kind of the L.A. version of it, and, you know, that tag probably gets them more attention than they would otherwise, but also might make people less inclined to give them a chance. They're also on a major label, but I saw an interviewer that are, uh, friend of the potty al-Iienist did with them that says, you know, like the major label does not care about us. They do not give us any support at all. But this record, it's better than the last one. It's more song-oriented. And it's not indie sleeves as a pose in the same way that, you know,

Frost Children or Snow Strippers or The Dare does. So much as the songs that you see on an indie sleaze playlist like Ladytron and The Faint, that was inherently kind of sleazy. So I've always been on the lookout for anything that sounds like, you know, dance macabre or the witching hour. So this is a record that I do anticipate listening a lot more to in December when I'm like kind of done with the records that I was ranking all year long. So a cool record, the help Riviera. So I've been busy listening to records I love from 2025 as well as checking in on albums that I had earmarked, but I didn't get a chance to devote my attention to all building up to the, big year-end list that I'm writing for Uprocks, and also we're going to have our year-end list

episode next week on this show. One album that I had earmarked, and I just didn't have the time to listen to it because it's so freaking long, is disquiet by a band from Australia called The Next. If you are familiar with this band, you know that in a certain pocket of the music world this band is iconic. It's a trio. They're classified as jazz, but it really transcends that title. You've got a piano player, a bass player, and a drummer. There's some guitar going on as well some organ, all improvised. They just go in, whether they're playing on stage or they're in the studio. They don't know what they're going to do. They build up these great, big, kind of atmospheric, mind-blowing jams that go on forever. Like this album in particular, it's a triple album. I think it's about,

I think it's well over three hours. The shortest song in this album, there's four tracks in all, 26 minutes is the shortest The longest track is 74 minutes So yeah, this album is a meal When you put it on You can really just listen to like one album really Or one disc at a time But it really is a cool record

This is such a like a fun band To listen to it I know for a lot of people Listening to these long songs may not seem like fun But they are really great Intuitive musicians and to see where they go Where they take it If you can lock into what they're doing

I actually think it is pretty accessible. Even if you aren't someone who listens to a lot of jazz, you can certainly hear, I think, the influence of things like In a Silent Way by Miles Davis on this record, but I can also hear traces of, like, a typical dark star by the Grateful Dead, or even, like, some of, like, the Bryant Eno records from the 70s that are drawing from his, like, sort of ambient side,

as well as his more pop side. Like, there's songs on here that kind of sound, like, 20-minute versions of something you might hear on another green world. So it's a cool record. Again, not super accessible. I understand if you don't want to hear an album that is like a 74-minute track on it. But if that sounds appealing to you, I think you'll enjoy this album.

Again, it's called This Quiet. The band is called The Next. It's a cool record. Will it end up on my year-end list? We'll see you next week. That about does it for this episode of Indycast. We'll be back with more news reviews and hashing out trends next week. And if you're looking for more music recommendations, sign up for the Indie

mixtape newsletter. You can go to uprocks.com backslash indie and I recommend five albums per week and we'll send it directly to your email box.