Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders, MBA - Interview with Edwin Mays with MaysGroup Advisors Discussing Market Risk

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Edwin Mays is a Chartered Retirement Planning Counselor-CRPC™ – MaysGroup Advisors is an independent financial services firm, specializing in helping individuals and families prepare for, plan, and live in retirement. Their approach focuses on tailored retirement planning strategies and insurance solutions to provide our clients with guaranteed lifetime income, asset protection, and achieve tax efficiencies in support of a holistic approach to their finances.With over 30 years in the financial services industry—including leadership roles at firms like Thomson Reuters, Merrill Lynch, Smith Barney, and Transamerica—Edwin Mays brings deep institutional experience and unmatched insight to every client engagement. As a Chartered Retirement Planning Counselor™ (CRPC), Edwin specializes in designing retirement strategies that guarantee lifetime cash flow and protect against the most serious threats retirees face today: market risk, longevity, and rising costs.At MaysGroup Advisors, Edwin’s mission is simple: replace uncertainty with strategy and give clients the confidence to retire on their terms—with income they can count on, no matter what the market does.Learn more: https://maysgroupadvisors.com/The content is developed from sources believed to be providing accurate information. The information in this material is not intended as tax or legal advice. Please consult legal or tax professionals for specific information regarding your individual situation. The opinions expressed and material provided are for general information, and should not be considered a solicitation for the purchase or sale of any security. We take protecting your data and privacy very seriously. As of January 1, 2020 the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) suggests the following link as an extra measure to safeguard your data: Do not sell my personal information.Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saundershttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/influential-entrepreneurs-with-mike-saunders/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/interview-with-edwin-mays-with-maysgroup-advisors-discussing-market-risk

Welcome to Influential Entrepreneurs, bringing you interviews with elite business leaders and experts, sharing tips and strategies for elevating your business to the next level. Here's your host, Mike Saunders. Hello and welcome to this episode of Influential Entrepreneurs. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach. Today we have with us, Edwin Mays, with Mays Group advisors, and we'll be talking about market risk and bare markets. and overconfidence. Edwin, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me, Mike. Hey, you're welcome. I'm excited to talk with you and learn about your experience in working with clients. And before we dive into this weighty topic of market risk, give us a little bit

of your background and your story. And how did you get into the financial services industry? Well, I was a VP of international equity trading for many years in New York City. and my parents, they lived in Michigan. And my mother called with questions about her retirement portfolio. She was in her early 70s at the time. And I looked at it. It was awful. It was, they had, the guy had her and my dad loaded up in Internet stocks.

And, of course, they later lost 40% of their holdings. so my goal after that was to get into financial planning I did so I started out as a as a portfolio manager but then after 2008 2009 I went into safe money safe income planning you know that's interesting I hear that type of story a lot where it's like I had this family member or I experienced this pain or I wanted to make sure this didn't happen again And so that's always so powerful because it's almost like, in a sense, when you're working with clients, you're kind of envisioning, you know, the work that you're doing you did with your parents back in the day. And it's like, I want to do this to serve my clients. And so many times it's like you hear these people that are, you know, in sales that say, you know, if you treat your clients the same way you would treat your mom or your dad or your brother or your sister, then you know you're doing the right thing.

So that is just awesome. And bear markets and overconfidence and market risk. All of these are things that I think people hear as sound bites in the news. Let's kind of start off talking about, first of all, defining what is a bear market and what is the overconfidence that comes with that? Well, sure. A bear market is when the market drops 20% or more from a recent high. And they show up about every five and a half years. the average decline is 38%.

So to break even, just to get back to where you were before the bear took place, you need a 62% gain. And that usually takes close to seven years. And so, you know, most retirees, they just don't have seven years to wait and hope for the market to come back. You know, that's an interesting point that you bring up and without getting into the math of it all. If the market drops X percent, a lot of times people feel like, oh, well, it went down 20 percent, so I just need to get 20 percent back up. But that's not the math of it. It's really, you know, it's really an interesting conundrum. And I think that the more the drop happens and the more people realize they need to get back more than that drop, doesn't that add in a little bit of risk that kind of can be tempting to go, I need to get back quicker.

Right away, and then that could actually lend itself to taking on more risk than should be. And then you end up, you know, cascading effects of more losses. That's exactly what happens. It happens more often than you would think. You know, people, they see their account dwindle, and they think, oh, well, I got to put more money in and catch up for what I lost. And it's just, it's a spiral that you can't get out of. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I know that a lot of times that in your work you see investors that feel confident they can just write it out or beat the market, you know, like, oh, well, I know best. Well, in reality, they're turning wrenches or, you know, helping people off the operating table or whatever industry they're in and they really don't know how to beat the market. And frankly, probably not many people do. But from your experience, what does that confidence? Why does confidence fade when the next bear market hits? Talk a little bit about that kind of ebb and flow and mindset there. Sure. You know, I think Mike Tyson said it best that everyone has a plan.

Everyone has a plan. Until you get punched in the mouth. Yep. I know that one. Yeah. So, you know, that's why we focus on building income plans that keep, you know, keep your money safe. You know, when you think about a 38% decline and it happens.

on average every five and a half years. You know, our last bear market was in 2022, so we're due. Another one is coming up. And for someone at the age of 65, for example, who wants to retire at age 70, that decline can be devastating. And they have it, they're not even thinking about taking money out yet. They're just planning for, planning to retire at age 70. For those who are taking money out, it's a total.

different story they can really get hurt because you know yeah that's a really good point and and and I would venture to say that at certain ages you know like hey if I'm in my 40s I can probably take on a little bit more risk and deal with some of the volatility but when you layer in what age you're at now compared to when that bare you know five six seven year whatever window is and when it could potentially start turning and then layer that in with what age you do want to retire, it starts to get like calculus. Oh, it can be very, very difficult. Yeah, because when you're still working and adding to your retirement savings, a market drop

doesn't hurt that much because you still have income coming in every week or every month and you've got time to recover. But once you retire, start taking money out, everything changes. every loss now cuts twice, your balance drops with the fall of the market, and then you have your rate of withdrawal also hurt your total portfolio. Yeah. You know, you've said that it's not about beating the market. It's about not being beaten by the market.

Talk a little bit about what that means and how that factors into planning that retirement strategy. Sure. Yeah. Beating the market sounds exciting, but it's truly a trader's mindset. It's not a retirees plan. The goal in retirement isn't to outpace Wall Street. It's to outlast it.

Yeah. And so, you know, the truth is that over 90% of professional fund managers fail to beat the market long term. So if the pros can't win this game consistently, it's not one retirees should play with their income. And, you know, I always tell clients to picture retirement like flying across the country. You don't need to break the sound barrier. You just need to land safely. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point. So can you think of an example? Maybe without naming any names, but, you know, when maybe some overcompetence here, led an investor to some unnecessary risk and kind of how that played out? Well, I can tell you one recent example, well, it's not so recent, it was to 2020. One of our clients is a woman in her early 60s. She was planning to retire later that spring, and she wanted to move her savings into a fixed index annuity.

So when the market fell nearly 35 percent in just the month of March, well, between February in March, went down 35%, fortunately, she picked up that annuity, and so she didn't lose a penny because, no, her annuity had a floor zero. But her sister, who was, you know, the day trader, she watched her account to sink. Wow. And that's a very painful thing. Yeah. You know, isn't it always the case like, oh, well, I've got, you know, my sister's a day trader, I've got it all figured out. And in reality, it's like, you know, sometimes that sister might have some, I don't know, experience or some, you know, really, really hyper focus that it would work for her, but maybe not for you. And unfortunately, you can't just go, if it worked for that person, it will work for me because their scenarios are very different.

So it makes me think of something, Edwin. Isn't it true that there is not one solution for every single person in every single situation regarding retirement? income strategies, it's like we've, every, every plan is custom tailored for each client because everybody's different. That's, that's correct. Because, you know, retirement has just two purposes. Retirement planning, I should say, has two purposes. One is a plan for living.

The other is a plan for dying. That's basically it. Now, there's a lot of different ways to get to those areas. and every person has a different need. And so what we try to do is just solve that need, figure out something to get that client to where they need to be. You know, you mentioned a couple times safe money and an income plan. Talk a little bit about that because I feel like when we have the topic here that we're talking about market risk,

there is a lot of risk and volatility. Markets are up down and all around. And so I know I sure don't like risk and I know I sure like the idea and the sound of safe money. Where does that factor in and what does that actually look like? Well, safe money, well, first of all, when you're retired, you don't live off of growth. You live off of income. And so we always look at it as climbing a mountain. You know, when you're in the accumulation phase, when you're in your 40s, maybe early 50s, you're going up the mountain.

But when you're in the distribution phase, when you're retired, you're coming down the mountain. And that takes a different skill set than going up. You know, I always think of it as going up the mountain requires a general practitioner. You know, you need that growth, got that growth. It's basically one thing you're looking for. growth. But when you're on the other side of the mountain, you need a specialist. You need a cardiothoracic surgeon, for example. You need someone who specializes in income, solely income. Now, you're going to have some growth in there, but the primary purpose of your retirement,

or primary need of your retirement, is income. You know, that really is a great point, and it's almost like a mindset. shift, isn't it? Like a lot of times in decades of building for retirement, we're growing and striving and adding to the retirement plan and, you know, depositing, depositing. And now it's, I've heard it said, like, you move from accumulation to decumulation. And it's now more, not just a lump sum or a dollar figure. Yes, you need that because, but the focus is that cash flow, that monthly income, that amount to cover your expenses. And doesn't that also mean that? that you need to know in retirement, A, what does retirement look like to you, and B, how much

you need? And if that's, if now once we know we need X number dollars a month to do all the things that we want to do, where's it coming from? That's correct. You know, we always ask clients two questions. You know, how long are you going to live and what's the market going to do in the next five, 10, 15 years? And nobody knows the answer to either one of those. That's right.

They don't know the answer. It's an unknown. And so what does insurance do? It protects against the unknowns. We don't buy homeowners insurance because we know our house is going to burn down. We buy it because it could. Yeah. And it's the same way with retirement planning.

We don't know when the next big bear market or 2008-2009 type crash is going to occur. but it could and you know you don't want to be on the on the bad end of that during your retirement years 100 percent so you know we're talking about the topic of market risk and bear markets and overconfidence what are some indicators that you watch for that make you think okay we might have crossed the line into into the danger zone when you know people are confidence or people really aren't paying attention to some of those red flags And I know that a lot of times, you know, you sit with a client and put together a plan and you check it once a year. But still, what are some of those red flags that people can be aware of?

Well, I mean, like in the marketplace or in the economy? Yeah, in their plan, you know, when they're, you know, getting their quarterly statements even before they come in to meet with you, what are some of those things regarding market risk and overconfidence that people need to make sure that they're aware of so that they're keeping the plan on the straight and error? Right. Well, one of the biggest issues is that we just spoke about unknowns. And financial advisors, they're not going to, they don't know how long you're going to live. They don't know what the market's going to do the next five, 10, 15 years, even though they think that they do. At least they act like they do. I'm a recovering portfolio manager. I get it. But averages don't mean much for retirement. And here's what I mean. when you're planning a putting together a portfolio for someone as a financial advisor they always use you know average lifespan or average market return but those averages don't mean much when you're retired again what matters is where you're at income wise at the time of retirement what's threatening my income. If you have a threat to your income in retirement,

you're always going to be fearful, always. It's never going to leave you. And so you're not going to have that free-willing, free-spirited and enjoyment of your retirement years as you plan when you're in your 50s or early 60s. So, yeah, basing, being overconfident with averages, it's just a it's a guaranteed death zone for retirees. Yep, that's the step in the wrong direction.

So I know we don't want to say here is the exact formula for success for everybody, but what are some of the things, some of the type of products that you are looking at for options to recommend to clash to consider regarding some of that safe money? What does that look like? Well, for the most part, it's annuity. Now, there are a number of different type of annuities. It's like nine annuity types out there. And within those types, there are many differentials.

So what we have to do as advisors is figure out what the client actually needs. You know, if they're looking for income in five years, that's one type of product. If they need growth, if they told us that their plan for retirement was was for leaving money to grandkids, for example. That's another type of annuity. But in all these cases, the floor of zero protects the client from a downturn in the market. Yeah. Well, it also reminds me of like the tortoise and the hair.

You know, people tend to want to chase those fast games and big growth. And unfortunately, that brings with it more risk. And then you can drop lower, whereas that steady plotting, you know, give me that, you know, safe return and it's going to go be the same every year. That tends to be the best approach long term, right? Yep, it sure is. And so with annuities, you can have a floor zero. And what do I mean by that? What's the math behind the floor is zero? Well, if you take $100, for example, and invest it, and the market goes up 10% one year and goes down 10% to next, and that process repeats itself for 10 years, you're going to end up at the end of the period with $95.

You're not going to be flat. You're going to have, you know, lost $5 total. But if you replace those down years with a 0% floor, after that 10-year period, you're going to have $161. So, you're not making massive growth and you're not taking any risk, any downside risk. the only thing you're going to get is growth with a guarantee floor of zero. You know, I think guarantee is a strong word for, you know, that's strong. So again, I think that too many people just don't know that there are options out there that you can put a good size percentage of your retirement income into things like that.

And sometimes people might want to have a little bit of money in the market where there, you know, There's a possibility for some bigger gains, but maybe it needs to be a smaller percentage. So everybody's different. There's not one solution for everybody, but if someone is interested in kind of having you take a look at their portfolio and see what that could look like for them, Edwin, what is the best way that they can learn a little bit more and then reach out and connect with you? Sure. They can look at our website at maizegroupadvisors.com, and they can always call me.

I'm at 917, 940, 5835, and we'll provide a complementary analysis of what they have. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you today. Well, that's my pleasure. You've been listening to Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders. To learn more about the resources mentioned on today's show or listen to past episodes, visit www. com.