Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders, MBA - Interview with Jack Peregrim Founder of Fourth Quarter Advisors Discussing Annuities Reimagined

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

Jack Peregrim is the founder and President of Fourth Quarter Advisors and he has a long career in business and strategy including his 30 years as the founder and owner of PARAGON Development which focused on providing strategic management services to many Fortune 50 global corporations.On his ‘retirement’ he personally recognized the complexity in Social Security options as well as Medicare. And, there is very little support and education available other than that offered by individuals and organization driven by revenue received for selling products and services.Jack and others are trained and committed with Certified Financial Fiduciary® designations. And, we are volunteer presenters for workshops sponsored by a number of non-profits which are non-profit 501(C)3 organizations and support programs in a wide range of retirement issues.Jack is a Certified Financial Fiduciary ™ in addition to his involvement in numerous professional and personal organizations.Learn More: https://www.fourthquarteradvisors.com/Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saundershttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/influential-entrepreneurs-with-mike-saunders/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/interview-with-jack-peregrim-founder-of-fourth-quarter-advisors-discussing-annuities-reimagined

Welcome to influential entrepreneurs, bringing you interviews with elite business leaders and experts, sharing tips and strategies for elevating your business to the next level. Here's your host, Mike Saunders. Hello and welcome to this episode of Influential Entrepreneurs. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach. Today we have back with us, Jack Peregrim, who's the founder of fourth quarter advisors, and we'll be talking about annuities reimagined, how to use. them to protect and not limit your wealth. Jack, welcome back to the program. I am glad to be here,

and I love talking about this subject. And not just annuities, I probably talk more about why you don't want them as much as why you would want them. But annuities can be a very valuable tool. You know, I like how you phrase that, because it's like if you hear the next shiny object of some product or service. Does that mean let's dump everything into that? Of course not. And it might work for this person, but not for the other person for a variety of reasons. So let's start off with a little bit of what I think sometimes people, when they hear a word and they're like, oh, red flag. I think that in decades past, annuities got a black eye for a lot of reasons. And you might hear on the radio sometimes people today go, oh, annuities are bad, mainly because it takes money out of their portfolio. they're not going to get paid on it long term. But talk a little bit about why annuities kind of have some misconceptions. Well, I think it's because annuities have so many different types and subtypes of annuities. The word annuity basically means that you give somebody funds and they take those funds

and they transfer them into payments. and that's how people look at annuities. They're paid out like a pension is. A pension is a type of an annuity. And there are many annuities that are not income annuities. I typically tell people and I firmly believe 99% of the annuities that people get are the wrong ones or they didn't need them. However, that 1% of the annuities that people get are the wrong ones or they didn't need them. However, that 1%,

If you get what is beneficial to you, could be better than anything else you're going to get. I don't want to put this. It's like going into a toolbox. And you need a certain sized hex-ended screwdriver. Well, your Phillips head and your straight head, they're not going to work. You do need that one tool at the right.

time. And what we tend to do is just kind of force annuities into boxes that they don't fit. If you want to know how we look at annuities, the first thing is you don't look at what annuity do I need. You look at should I need an annuity. Yeah. And what would an annuity do for me? And just like income assets and taxes, we want to take the long view of an annuity. annuity. And like I said, there's so many different annuities. There are variable annuities. And they have more risk and they have more reward.

Well, if your objective is to limit, protect your foundational capital and not have risk, well, then you don't want any variable annuity. However, variable annuities are sold by people that don't sell income annuities or investment annuities or migas. they don't they don't sell those. So they're sold by agents that they're going to push variable annuities as if that is exactly what you need. So they're pushing the Phillips head screwdriver when it's not going to work to help you fix what you're doing.

Yeah. Because that's the tool they have. That's pretty much all the tool they have. Or let's even peel the layer of the onion back a little bit more. That's where they get paid more commissions. So they're going to push that product potentially. That is actually, that's perfect. That's exactly the best way to describe it.

I'm a big one and we try to have our clients look at criteria first and forget that anything is an annuity. What is it that you need? Looking at 15 years into your life. You need foundational income you're not getting today. I think the way to look at it too, besides criteria that you'll end up with, but follow a decision tree approach. Do I need foundational income in the future that I cannot see getting it today? If the answer to that is yes, then you might want to look at an income annuity. Because that will generate income for life so you'll always get it and you won't run out of your money.

However, most income annuities are going to consume your money by paying you. So an insurance company would want to pay you more than they're earning on the money you gave them, and then you're not to pay your money back either. So after I received my payments for 15, 18 years, sometimes immediately, I no longer have access to that money, it's not there. So if I ever need the money later in life or if I want to pass it on to my beneficiaries, it isn't there. It's consume.

I hate things to consume money. But if you need foundational income, if that answer is yes, now my next step is, well, how can I do it and not consume my income? And so now I set a criteria and I say, all right, I want to. get an income annuity that is also growing underneath it. So I may be taking 7% out a year that's guaranteed for life, but if the annuity itself is earning 5%, I'm going to go 50 years before I run out of that instead of 15.

I'm not likely to live 50 years. So at least I know that I'm passing money onto my beneficiaries, or it's there for me later in life. So I'm going to set a criteria that I want as much growth to offset the income on the disbursements I'm getting from it. And so that's just one approach to it. I like, yeah. It sounds to me like the role annuities play in retirement is ASS if it's right for you now and all of that. But it's protection and income.

So for instance, when you get tired of the market volatility with your portfolio going up and down because of what the market does, if you have money in annuity, it can't lose money so you're protected. And then there's the other aspect of if you have a gap in your retirement where you need a little bit more money than what Social Security or whatever sources, then an annuity can provide that guaranteed income. Would that be an accurate assessment? I'm going to say no. And the rest be a little contentious. But the reason for that is because if you have a gap, for instance, I have retirement accounts, I could transfer them to income because, you know, until my required distributions will begin, I'm going to have a shortfall.

But it's a short time shortfall. I'm better off with a gap strategy to say, what do I need to take? out of funds, which funds that have tax benefits for me. In the long run, I will not have a gap. So I do not want in that case to get one of the income annuities that starts me getting income for life when my income, I'll say it a problem, my income problem is a five to six year problem. That's the case where I just want to increase my investment returns. And that brings. And that brings me to something I love talking about, which are the investment annuities. And the investment annuities are ones that they basically, probably the best of them are the fixed indexed annuities.

And they're ones that give you market-based returns because nothing gives you accumulation like the stock market does. But you're indexing to it. So I get market-based returns when the market goes up, but when the market goes down, I keep my base. I don't lose at all from whatever point I'm at. They will outperform in almost all cases. They're going to outperform interest protected investments. So, but what I want is my criteria on an investment annuity, because I want an investment annuity to allow me to compare it to other investments cleanly. I don't want to say, oh, yes, I got to consider a fee here. I want it, and I'll give you a criteria that we employ.

I want no risks of any losses at all. I'm looking at an investment. Oh, I don't have to want it. I don't want to worry about it ever going down. I know it's secure it. I want no fees or riders. Well, insurance companies, love their fees and their riders. If I'm looking at a pure investment, I don't need those. And that gives

me an advantage over anything that your financial services people provide because they're always dilutive with their fees. I want no fees or riders. I'm going to compare it cleanly to a bond or a CD. I want no cap on how much the increases are. And that's one of the biggest determinants of how much you will earn and have as an investment because the salespeople, even with these annuities, the salespeople are going to tell you that, you know, there's an 8% cap. But my gosh, I'd like 8%. There's nothing wrong with that. And they say you'll be happy with that.

And the answer is no, because in any period of time, a decrease in the market, followed by another year that's pretty slow also. means that over two years, my money didn't go up at all. I didn't go down the way the market did, but I didn't go up at all. And in year three, it has a very nice recovery and goes up 20%. Well, if I only get eight, I have less than three years. 3% I averaged over those three years. But if I go up 20%, then I get all 20%,

at least I'm averaging close to 7% in those years. So you do not want a cap. you always ask for what are called illustrations and the illustrations have to show you a few things that you always look at. One is a page that says what is guaranteed. Another is a page that has to tell you if you got this formula to indexing,

basically I could say, oh, here's something to indexes. I get 60% of the S&P 500 when it goes up. nothing when it goes down. If that's my formula, they have to show me a page that shows me what did it do in the past, because I don't know what the future is going to be,

but what did it do in the past in its worst 10 consecutive years out of 20 or 30? That's the only thing I'm going to base this investment on. What is the worst that it's done? and I typically ask our clients to even decrease that. Maybe look at 80% of what the worst is, and that'll tell you what the floor may be. So when we look at all of these criteria and we insist on,

I should be able to take out 5, 10% each year without a penalty. So, yeah, I could put things into a 10 or 12-year product that just has the highest returns because somebody needs the money. long term and are willing to pay me a reward for having my money long term. I know that I still have flexibility, unlike a CD or a bond that I can't break, that I could take that money out each year. I'm not tying it up completely. But anyway, when I look at some of those, and if I get all of those criteria, these investment

annuities, some of them can be very, very attractive. I'm not even talking about some that give you immediate bonuses, increase your funds, and do it in a way that it's money you actually get and keep. So there's a lot of different things that we recommend people look at, and especially when they're looking at longer-term investments and understanding what their money needs to do in their best interest. So if I know that my money is going to be subject to RMDs, and I need to take 6% out per year. I'm sorry, 5% out. 4% out per year.

I want to earn 5% or 6%. Yeah. Start setting it up. And that means that when I will be taking that money out, I'm always going to get more income every year because my money is growing. The percentage that I have to take out goes up every year. So I take a higher percent of bigger amounts every year because my investments are doing better than my drawdowns.

So these are a very good tool if you get that 1% that's offered. A big problem with these are that, oh my gosh, if I look at the business models, they're sold by people that get commissions. They're living on the commissions. They're feeding their family on commissions. And the most lucrative ones with all of those terms may not generate the commissions that others do. And anybody selling insurance says that they have absolutely the best. I don't know if anyone that would say, yes, our insurance products aren't as good as somebody else's are.

So what you end up doing is talking in a very narrow range and you end up in that 99% of the things you could invest. in it weren't worth the best ones. You know, it makes me wonder too, Jack. I think that that's something that sometimes people kind of question and think. I wonder if I'm being told the right information. How can someone tell if an advisor is selling an annuity incorrectly, like not in their best interest? I really think I'll get back to it again.

I really think the thing that I'm very strong on is having people establish criteria I did this with my large corporate clients in years past. Have criteria on what is in your best interest. Yeah. And you start with that. And now you're going in and saying, this is what I need. Do you have it?

If the answer is no, you just say thank you. First thing you do is insist on getting what you need. What we have always done in the past, our approach to annuity is the same way. Our approach is we go to people that are more knowledgeable about an area than we are, and we ask them what they have. And what would they recommend?

And what do they think is best? We have never in any of that process known what we need to be insisting on because we're just trusting them to give us the best. but it's like going in to buy a car and if I go to buy a car and I say here's what I want I want this color I want this warranty

I want this amount of electronic gadgets if you will I want a sunroof I want tan interior and they say well we don't have anything there but instead of tan interior wouldn't you like a brown one and you say, well, no, if I wanted a brown one, I would have told you all like a brown one.

Yep. And now I'm going to go to somebody that has the car I want. You know what? I have to take a little bit of a step with homework and see who else has the cars. But then I have that car for seven to ten years, and I am much more happy over that period of time. And it's what I want for the long term. A lot of times we have to take that step. And I think starting with criteria and it's criteria with investments,

criteria with specifically investment annuities. It's decide on what it is that you need your funds to do. If an annuity can't do it when you're talking to somebody that only talks annuities, you learn. I don't need to talk to anybody that, that focus on annuities if an annuity can't do what I want. Yeah. But if what you want doesn't have the word annuity in it,

I want an investment that does can earn more than 6% a year, completely safe, protected at least as much as FDIC, even with a company. I want to deal with companies that are double A or more. And you put these criteria together and you talk to somebody to say, do you have anything you can do this? It could be a very short conversation. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to meet with anybody. Clarify in a conversation that somebody can give you an investment that's better than what you found in treasuries and CDs bonds in any period of time.

You know, Jack, it's once you do set up that annuity, you've gone through that checklist and you feel confident. Is it similar to like if your money's in certain categories and you're, you come in for an annual review and you say, should we make any adjustments? Can you replace an existing annuity? Should it be looked at every few years to make sure, you know, because I know that there could be some limits and things. Well, you have to stay into this particular one for this many years. But what is your recommendation that way on making sure that it still remains the best choice? I think overall, if you're not familiar with annuities and you're not financially savvy where you've been self-managing your own accounts. The best thing you can do is utilize

that illustration process that says if I put my funds into getting a percentage of a certain index and I can see that over a five-year period, seven-year period, 10, 12-year period, it will do what I need to, comparing it to the worst 10 years that we've had before. So that will solve all the majority of any issues you have because I don't believe I need to be making changes on an annual basis. That said, every year or two years, depending on the, formula you have, you are allowed to change from one index to another that the insurance company does offer. There are unique circumstances where you do want to consider that. Example is there were quite a few funds that were tied to indexes that were really focused on ESG, environmental

social governance. Well, with the change of this administration, those stocks have not done. well, those indexes have done poorly. They were subsidized or not subsidized now, a lot of the end investments in them. So, yes, it might be a change where you can make a change and just put it generally into a technology platform and international index, S&P index. You could make changes. my recommendation is first thing, get into the most, what I'm going to say? The annuity index that is the best at this time, knowing that the vast majority of them I will not need to be overmanaging them. But yes, there are junctures you can make changes. One other thing about getting out of an annuity, there are ways to get out of annuities.

Let's say that you're six years into a 12-year annuity. They have surrender values. So, yes, I got to pay a penalty. And the typical annuity has surrender penalties that decrease over time. Let's say I'm looking to keep the numbers even. I have a 10-year annuity. After it's in there one year, I'm allowed to take out 10% every year. If I take out more than 10%, it's a 9% penalty on what's over 10.

The next year, I can take out 10%. That's an 8% penalty on anything over 10. When I get 5 or 6 or 7 years into that, my penalty is so much reduced that I may be able to get out. of it to my betterment because I can move it to something that will eat the difference. We'll say that, all right, we'll give you more than enough to make up for the 5% extra penalty. So yes, if somebody has, we run into that all the time where people have annuities and they can replace them with much more productive ones if they have that 99% original annuity that

isn't productive and isn't the best they could get. They can move into that top 1% after they're in it a couple of years. So if someone is interested in saying, hey, I've got an annuity, can you look at it and give me a second opinion? Or I've heard about annuities. I'm tired of the market volatility. Help me to see some of the benefits potentially. What's the best way that they can reach out, connect with you, Jack?

They can always reach me at 4th Quarter Advisors.com, F-O-U-R-T-H-Q-U-A-R-T-E-R, A-D-B-I-S-O-R-A-D-B-I-S-O-R-S-O-R-S. And that is our website. My contact information is on there, but they can just reach out and contact me at Jack at 4th Quarter Advisors.com. I haven't provide a cell number because if just a conversation helps them, I'll gladly have it. 203, 507, 3826. Perfect, Jack. Thank you so much for coming back on. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you today. It's been a pleasure too.

And I love helping people look at annuities as something that could be better than anything else and help them understand which ones will be. Thank you, Jack. You've been listening to influential entrepreneurs with Mike's Saunders. To learn more about the resources mentioned on today's show or listen to past episodes, visit www. www. Influential EntrepreneursRadio.com.