Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders, MBA - Interview with Wayne Miller and Darren Grunberg with Hale & Associates Discussing Fixed Index Annuities for Union Retirees

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

Wayne Anthony Miller, II, is the Senior Managing Director and Executive Vice President of Hale & Associates, an independent nationwide financial services firm. Hale & Associates has over 40 years of industry leadership. Wayne specializes in helping retirees and pre-retirees protect their life savings, maximize income, and build durable multigenerational legacy plans. Wayne’s mission is to safeguard assets families have worked a lifetime to build and empower every client to retire with clarity, confidence, and long-term peace of mind.Learn More: https://haleandassociates.net/Investment advisory services are offered through RLB Financial a registered investment adviser. Insurance products and services are offered through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents. California insurance number OK13849. Wayne Anthony Miller, II CA LIC# 0G30788 Vice President of Sales Hale & Associates, LLC CA DBA Hale and Associates Financial and Insurance Services, LLC – LIC #6013528 CA DBA Wayne Miller Insurance and Financial Services – LIC #6014459Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saundershttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/influential-entrepreneurs-with-mike-saunders/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/interview-with-wayne-miller-and-darren-grunberg-with-hale-associates-discussing-fixed-index-annuities-for-union-retirees

Welcome to influential entrepreneurs, bringing you interviews with elite business leaders and experts, sharing tips and strategies for elevating your business to the next level. Here's your host, Mike Saunders. Hello and welcome to this episode of Influential Entrepreneurs. This is Mike Saunders, the authority positioning coach. Today we have back with us Wayne Miller and Darren Grunberg with Hale and Associates, and we'll be talking about why fixed index annuities aligns. so well with union retirees. Gentlemen, welcome back to the program. Thanks, Mike.

Thanks, Mike. Hey, I know that this is a topic that sometimes people can hear a word annuity and think, oh, no, those are not good, but they might have some outdated conceptions of how those works. So we want to dive right into that. So tell us about how Hale and Associates works in the union space to serve retirement needs. So just to give you a little bit about my background. which I think we went over in episode one.

I come from a family of union workers, and I know how important it is to have what we call the three-legged stool of retirement, which is your social security, your pension, and a retirement account. And my parents were fortunate enough and blessed enough to have the pension and their retirement account, their 403B. So at Helen Associates, we really specialize, in working with union retirees because we truly understand the values that this community was built on.

It was built on loyalty and hard work, security, and making sure that you take care of your own, your family, your brothers, your sisters. And, you know, union members, they spent decades contributing to pensions with the promise, you know, of a secure retirement. But many now are discovering that even strong union pensions don't fly. cover, you know, the rising costs and extended lifespans because, again, people are living longer and inflation. So you have a pension, you have that last paycheck when you work, and then you have your pension paycheck. There's a huge gap in there that you're missing. It's a void,

an income void. Well, what we do is we help union retirees bridge that income gap by creating guaranteed lifetime income that works alongside their pension, ensuring that they never outlived their savings. And again, I grew up in a family of union educators, and I saw firsthand how guaranteed income provides dignity, certainty, and most importantly, peace of mind that every retiree deserves. Excellent. That's great. Wayne, what about from your perspective?

So I came from working in the federal retirement space for years, Mike. And what that did is that gave me a deep expertise in helping those federal employees integrate their pension, their Social Security benefits, and what was known as their Thrift Savings Plan and allocated it into a complete retirement plan. And one of our core competencies is identifying that income gap, the difference between what their pension provided and what they actually needed. And Darren and I, we've learned that union retirees, they face the same challenge, whether they're plumbens. or pipe fitters or iron workers, they typically have a solid pension, but pensions rarely replaced 100% of their income. And depending on their profession, some union members don't even receive social security or they receive their reduced benefit due to offset those provisions.

So our job, really, Mike, is to analyze their pension structure, evaluate their survivorship benefit options, determine their social security eligibility, identify their income gap, and build structured income solutions to help fill that gap. And additionally, our goal is to protect their assets from market volatility and ensure their income less them and or their spouse's life for the rest of their lives. And we've learned that these union retirees, they value consistency and reliability. And these products, these fixed index annuities, give them that. So we help them transform what they would have as a good pension

into a complete retirement income plan. You know, and you bring up a good point, and I want to harken back to one point that Darren brought up to, um, with, with this gap. And Darren brought up longevity. And I think that if we look at the statistics these days, we are all eating a little bit better, taking a few supplements, having better, um, health care. We're exercising more and we're living longer because back in the 40s and 50s, the lifespan was different than what it is today. And I think even the, um, you know, actuarial tables and retirement. plans only went to a certain age and these days they're 10, 15 years longer. So what does that mean? Our money needs to last even longer. We never know what, how long does our money need to last to the day and minute and time? We don't know that. But let's talk a little bit about that gap because when you sit down with someone that's a union member, one of the first conversations you need to have is, okay, how much do you need in retirement? What does that look like? Are you going to travel the world? Are you going to contribute to charities, nonprofits, visit the grandkids?

Let's get that number in place. What do you have to work with? Pensions, Social Security, whatever those numbers are. And let's look to see if there is a gap. And if there is, how do we close it? Talk a little bit about how you guys help union members articulate and visualize what they're going to actually need of retirement. So the gap is covered.

You know, in certain situations, your expenses could actually increase. increase in retirement. So your income decreases and your expenses actually could increase, which is really not what you want. You kind of want your income to increase and your expenses can increase, but you want to make sure that proportionally your income is increasing as well so you can cover your expenses. And the reason why it's increasing is because you have a lot more time on your hand to go on that vacation, to visit the grandkids, to redo your bathroom, to take a vacation, whatever it is, but that income isn't coming in. So, of course, holistically, we designed those plans to help make up for that gap in income

through again the fixed index annuity. So, Wayne, if you want to continue. Yeah, so absolutely. You know, you got to take a lot of things in account, Mike, like inflation, for example, health care, taxes, their spousal needs. If they decide to retire early, you know, many of these pensions only cover 50 or 70% of their pre-retirement income. And you quickly realize that there's a substantial income gap.

And like I mentioned earlier, some union members, they don't get Social Security when they're retired or their benefits are reduced. Others can't claim it until later, which increases the gap in their early years of retirement. So, you know, there's longer retirement at horizons, obviously, with mortality. But, you know, there can be complex Social Security rules that we help them go through. if they're in a position where there's pension only income for long-term stretches, we help them go through that as well. And of course, people are living longer and there's longer retirement timelines. And that's where these products are so beneficial.

Yeah, because it helps fill the gap with guarantee. And I think that in life, most of us would check the box. Give me that guarantee. So when we're thinking about how do we first identify the gap and then how do we close the gap, We want to close that gap with guaranteed income. And you mentioned a couple of the differences between a retiree and a union retiree being maybe there could be some social security differences. Are there other aspects of a union retiree that are financially different than a traditional retiree? Yes.

You're speaking firsthand. You know, union retirees, listen, they spent decades in careers, you know, built on solidarity with their brother. with their brothers and sisters in the union, predictability and the promise that if you worked hard and you follow the rules that you'd retire with both dignity and security. But, you know, you watch the 401K, and if the savings drops 20 to 30%

in a market downturn, no different than a regular retiree. The profound anxiety is overwhelming because it feels like everything you work for is suddenly at risk. And it's not your fault. It's just that in retirement, you left your money exposed to markets that you have no control over. And again, distress goes beyond numbers on a statement.

It's sleepless nights wondering if, you know, you have to cut back. All of a sudden, you may have to cancel that vacation or, you know, maybe not redo your bathroom. That's 45 years old. You know, you feel guilt about the burden on your family that if you don't have a enough income, you may have to go to your children and ask them for money. And, you know, no one wants to do that. You want to be proud and you want to be, you want to have dignity. And again, that all leads to the constant worry of running out of money. And for union members who really built their lives on the principle of taking care of their own, taking care of

their family, which is most important, and never really leaving anyone behind, market volatility threatens not just their finances, but, and this is very important, their self-worth. And, you know, self-worth equals mental health. And equals lifespan. And equals lifespan, absolutely. Yeah. And no one, not you, not me, not Wayne, who wants to have that stress in retirement? Retirement is supposed to be enjoyable, proud, you know, just living, spending,

spending time with your family, friends, what have you. And if the market goes down, that balance in that piece of paper goes down, it really is sickening and it's a real problem. And we really try to help union retirees, you know, overcome that problem. You know, you mentioned that union retirees are having that pension to factor in to fill in the gap. And that's different than most traditional retirees because traditionally people don't have pensions. So there's that factor there. How soon ahead of retirement should a union retiree be looking at annuities?

Because is that something that you're going to look at filling the gap after you retire? Or can you be looking at that a few years before retirement? I'll take this question, Darren, if you don't mind. Sure, of course. So many, depending on the plan that they have set up through their union, many of them will let them take a portion of their retirement account. Let's say it's a 401k plan and do a roll over. if they're eligible once they're the age of 59 and a half. Others will require them to keep their plan until they retire.

So it's plan specific. I typically advise investors to start planning five to 10 years out from retirement. So they want to make sure that they have a good plan in place. So there aren't any surprises when they do decide to retire. Excellent. Yeah. I guess the generic answer as soon as possible. And start the conversation as soon as possible.

well because there might be some planning opportunities that would be more beneficial or more available at a certain age versus, you know, waiting too long. So as with anything, plan ahead and have the conversation well ahead of when you need it because you might go, hey, that's a great point. Let's explore that. And then let's look at two to three years from now, really putting that into place. But it's never too early to start thinking or planning of that. And so when you mentioned structured income. Talk a little bit about what a structured income is and how that solution could fit a retiree in a union really, really well. Absolutely. One thing I just wanted to mention before you asked this last question, Mike, is, you know, we work with investors from all ages.

Okay. So it's not just working with retirees. I mean, there's investors that we work with that are millennials. So it's never too late to start planning and you can never start planning too early. I just want to take that very clear. But if you're a union member, you know, you want to get and you're still working, you want to make sure you have your ducks in a row, like I said, at least five to ten years out, maybe even sooner than that. So like you said, ASAP. Yeah.

So to answer your question, why structured income solutions fit union retirees so well, it's because these products like fixed index annuities, what they mirror as far as guaranteed income is what union members already understand. Okay? They understand their pension. Many of them understand Social Security, if they're already getting Social Security. So they're able to get dependable guaranteed income. And pensions are predictable.

Retirees know exactly what they're going to get, how much they're going to receive. These fixed index annuity products, they extend that same predictability, Mike, to the portion of income that must be supplemented. And we've noticed, Darren and I working with union retirees for a good while, that they don't want to rely on the stock market for their basic living expenses. They don't want to wonder if they can afford their property taxes or their medical premiums or their grandkids' birthday, depending on what the market's doing. So what these structured income solutions allow them to do as far as these annuity products, they help build layers of guaranteed income. Many of them can hedge inflation.

They provide spousal protection. They protect principle. And the biggest thing is that they reduce stress. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen a union member. retiree, you see the look on their face. This emotional burden is getting lifted off of their chest. And of course, these guaranteed income solutions create long-term stability, Mike. Huge.

Well, let's kind of articulate that and polish it up with an example. Can you think of a case study or an example when you work with a union member and put some of these structured incomes in place? Absolutely. Go ahead. Go ahead, Darren. Oh, yeah. So I was just going to say firsthand.

So my parents, and I've talked about this before, were both New York City educators who dedicated over 75 years, you know, serving their community, serving the children of the community. And they retired with complete confidence and peace of mind because they had a well-funded pension and a very reliable retirement income. So they never worried about market crashes. They never checked their account balances obsessively. Now, again, are my parents? exposure to the stock market? Of course they do and they should. But it's about having a balanced, holistic portfolio. And that's what this is all about. Again, they never worried about market crashes and they never had the fear of running out of money because their guaranteed monthly checks

arrived like clockwork. Every Monday, the first Monday of every month, they go out to the mailbox and that check was there. And that actually allowed them to enjoy the retirement that they really deserved. And, you know, seeing that firsthand, you know, that showed me the difference between hope, as we talked about before, where I hope the market does this versus knowing that your income is guaranteed. Hope, no good, guaranteed good, because it's not just about money, it's about dignity and freedom and the ability to live, you know, without the constant financial anxiety. And as they say, hope is not a strategy. So I love that point that you're making there, Darren. Wayne, any example you can think of as we wrap up this conversation on fixed index

annuities with union retirees? Sure. One story that always stays with me, Mike, it involves a widow. She's actually a client of mine. And so her husband recently passed away. They had some income coming in that covered the basics, but there was a huge gap in the social. income once he passed away. And those rising costs were putting pressure on her savings. She was afraid of outliving her money. This is really something no retirees should experience. So we built a layered FIA income plan, fixed index annuity income plan. One began starting income immediately, giving her some breathing room. Then a second income layer activated later to combat inflation. And this gave her increasing income over time, which matched those rising

costs. And a few months after implementing this plan, she told me, she said, Wayne, there was tears in her eyes. And she said, thank you for making this happen. This is the one of the first nights I've been able to sleep through the night. And for Mike, that makes it worth it for me, Mike, because it's not just a career for Darren and I or a job. I mean, this is a calling that we feel that we can truly help people in their retirement. And it's not just about changing numbers on a spreadsheet. It changes lives, Mike. Yep, huge. You know, and it's not just about, you know, let's look at that spreadsheet with that number and yeah, I hit that metric we were looking for. It's about that peace of mind. It's about that person like you mentioned. Their friends calling them going, oh, my word,

my portfolio dropped and what am I going to do? And they were able to say to them, well, mine didn't, you know, and so it's just that comfort, that peace of mind and the word guarantee keeps coming into place. So when we're talking about fixed index annuities, we're talking about things that can't lose money, we're talking about guarantees, lifetime income, all of those things really aligned so well with the mission of what the union member had dealt with their entire career is all of those key phrases and the way that they give back to their community. So I just love that. So any final thoughts, guys, before we wrap up this topic. No, we just appreciate you having us today, Mike. And thank you so much for your time.

and if anybody wants to get in touch with us, we'd love to meet with you. Our website's www. HAL-H-A-L-E and Associates.net. That's www. Hale and Associates. Dot net. Excellent. Thanks, guys.

I appreciate you coming back on. Thanks, Mike, so much. Investment advisory services are offered through R-L-B Financial, a registered investment advisor. Insurance products and services are offered through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents. California insurance license number 0G 30788. You've been listening to Influential Entrepreneurs with Mike Saunders. To learn more about the resources mentioned on today's show or listen to past episodes, visit www.com.