Influential Introvert: Communication Coaching for Professionals with Performance Anxiety - How to Create Podcast Ads that Motivate Listeners to Buy

Episode Date: February 7, 2020

Today, you’ll learn how to create ads that people actually want to listen to, and that will motivate your listeners to buy. Because if you want to keep that sponsor you landed, you have to be able to demonstrate that you’re converting for them.   In this episode, my friend Lisa Orkin of Lisa Orkin Creative breaks down her storytelling formula for audio ads. You’ll learn how to: craft ads that keep people hooked  talk about benefits sound engaging and not scripted   Through her company Radio Ranch, Lisa has produced thousands of podcast and radio ads. She is also a podcaster and her latest show is called Project Woo Woo, which you’ll hear about.    I love Lisa’s playfulness and positive vibe. You’re going to get a ton of value out of this episode. Now onto my conversation with Lisa.    *** Visit sarahmikutel.com for more resources on how to podcast.   Ready to start your own show? Download my free guide: “8 Mistakes New Podcasters Make and How to Fix Them.”    Looking for a podcast media host? Use my Libsyn affiliate code POSTCARD to get the rest of this month for free and next month free.    I’m your podcast launch consultant, Sarah Mikutel. If you’d like to learn more about me, you can check out my other podcast, Postcard Academy travel podcast. This travel podcast is for the ‘experiences not things’ kind of person who believes travel goes deeper than a fantastic meal (though that is pretty great). Every week, I interview people who packed up everything to start a new adventure in another part of the world. You’ll learn how they did it and get their best insider food and culture tips.    Thank you so much for listening to Podcasting Step by Step. I know youDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

The story has to be organic to your product. So just saying the copy in an entertaining way is not advertising. Have you been wanting to start a podcast for a while now, but something's holding you back? Maybe it's fear of putting yourself out there or confusion about the technology. I'm Sarah Mikital and on podcasting step by step, I'll break down how to podcast with a little loving motivation to give you the skills and the confidence you need to finally launch that show. show of your dreams. Let's get started. In my sponsorship 101 episode with Jessica Cufferman, we talked about how to negotiate your own sponsorship deal because the traditional CPM advertising model is terrible for most podcasters. And today, you're going to learn how to create ads that people actually want to listen to and that will motivate your listeners to buy. So if you

want to keep that sponsor that you landed, you're going to have to demonstrate that you're converting for them. So in this episode, my friend Lisa Orkin of Lisa Orkin creative is here to break down her storytelling formula for audio ads. You're going to learn how to craft ads that will keep people hooked, how to talk about benefits, how to sound engaging and not scripted. And through Lisa's company Radio Ranch, she has produced and recorded thousands of podcast and radio ads. And she's also a podcaster herself. Her latest show is called Project Woo-woo, and you'll hear all about that. I really love Lisa's playfulness and her positive vibe, and you are going to get so much value from this episode. I think you're going to love it.

So now into my conversation with Lisa. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So you have recorded thousands of radio and podcast ads. You are so creative. I'm so curious as to like what you were like as a kid. Were you running around directing plays and acting. I think I was. I think I was doing, I was running around as a kid. I grew up in the studio because my dad was in radio and theater. And so it's sort of what I always did.

And I was a very weird kid. You know, I would just stare out the window a lot and then had a goofy fantasy life. And I think I'm still like that. Yeah, you created a movie, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, fully loaded. It's hard to find. But yeah, with Adam McKay, a bunch of really, who became very big. Who knew? Yeah, what were some of his films? Stepbrothers. And then I think he was nominated for the Cheney movie last year for an Academy Award for directing that. So he went on to very big things. And he was kind of big back then. He was like a head writer on Saturday Night Live. He's done a lot.

You have always been surrounded by this creativity. How did? this translate into all of this voice acting? How did you get into it? Well, I got into voice acting because my dad had a studio and made commercials and series and he would just pull me in all the time. And it wasn't something I liked doing, actually. And at first, I would say in my 20s, I kind of ran from it and I just did on-camera acting and stayed away from voiceover totally. and eventually I sort of worked my way back. And a lot of times I had to sort of deal with the fact that my dad was this big presence overshadowing.

So people had weird expectations of me. So I think that was really hard. But eventually I just, I found who I was, my unique sound, what I did best. And that's how it sort of happened. And even though sometimes it gets you in the door when you have like a famous, father who does the same thing, it sometimes made it really difficult. And I think that's how I ended up doing it. And I just eventually found my own sound in my own way. How would you describe your sound? I would say I'm rye, definitely comedic. I do almost all, even on camera commercials, I'm always

sort of the comedic character. And I'm always sort of the negative in a commercial. Usually I'm the person it happens to or I'm the product you don't want or all of that. Well, and you have a very unique podcast. I've not heard anything like this. Can you tell us about Project Woo Woo? So I interview like the most interesting people in the world, but they're not actually, they're played by comedians and actors. So if I, I want to have conversations with people. So like if I want to talk to Abe Lincoln. I'll have a friend do the research who's a actually it's a really funny comedian who did Abe Lincoln who was a huge

Abe Lincoln fan. I've had like Ruth Bader Ginsburg on and a friend played her. So anyone... Was it was it a man who played her? No, it was a woman who played Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but Dr. Ruth was played by a man. So there's still... Sorry, that's what I meant. Dr. Ruth was played by a man And Carly, our mutual friend Carly, played Dr. Phil.

So you are like, it's pretty open as to who can creatively interpret these real people. Yeah, and I actually almost prefer when it's someone so, like Buddha or not, the Dalai Lama was played by this wonderful Midwestern actor, comedy guy, improv guy. And I don't, sometimes they do the accents or the dialects, but most of the time, I don't want them to. I want them to do it as if they're them from their own voice. To me, that's the most fun and the funniest. But sometimes they're really good. So like Elton John, the actor's really amazing.

And it just, sometimes the accent can trip people up. So that's why I don't want them to do it. Yeah. Well, and it's all in the story anyway. It's not like who sounds the most like this person. Exactly. It's more the affectations and just taking that idea and running with it. Exactly.

And so I think the actors who use an accent, they just do it for themselves, really, because they have a good sense of play. And but when people are like, I don't know if I sound like her, I'm like, don't try to sound like her. So, yeah, it's about this story. And really, it's all from my point of view. So I always say to them, it doesn't really matter what you sound like. What matters is if you embody the person. Yeah. Well, I want to talk to you about ads and storytelling.

But since we're on this, like play and creativity and things like, that. I wanted to ask you about improv. I think that's something that we as podcasters, maybe it's something that we should try out to make us more comfortable with doing something a little bit more free-flowing, like what you're doing. So could you talk to us a little bit about what improv is? And maybe, are there any tools that we can take from it to practice ourselves? I think a lot of times when people interview, if something happens or it's not exactly how they imagined it. They get stuck and that's where they get caught up or they lose their authenticity. And I think if you just see everything as an opportunity, good or bad,

that you can go down, I think that's the biggest lesson. So always say yes is the biggest lesson in improv. And I think it teaches you a sense of play. I think it's because we're on the air. We should have a sense of play. It should be fun and a little heightened, different than normal life. It should have a little bit of heightened reality. So I think that we can get really caught up in wanting to sound perfect and spending like hours and hours editing. And I think if we can get more comfortable, not having things perfect and just being able to like roll with things, then yeah, it could not only produce like a more fun podcast but also less work for us as well. Yeah, I also think too, it gives an element of live that you're with it, you're with the person as opposed to sounding so

polished, especially in this day and age. I don't think, I think with social media and everything else, we don't want to see perfect. Right. We're getting a little sick of it. Yeah. We want to see people that are human and fall down. And I think that's even true with voice. Even in, in the comments, I do or the commercials I do. It's people having real lives, people who have real experiences, real stories. So I think that makes it a huge difference. I mean, even in my podcast, I, the last episode I did with Elton John, at the end, I had him do my tag and he was having trouble with it, and we did it like four different ways. And I just put that whole thing on. I didn't even cut it.

Tag? Yeah, like the, you know, this is brought to you by Lisa Orkin Creative. Oh, oh, oh. So, and he just, I'm like, now do it like Elton John. Now do it like you. Now do it faster. And I just, I kind of like, I just, I left it completely like that because I just thought, that's kind of fun.

Why cut it down to make, let them hear the underbelly. Yeah, I actually really love when people have bloopers. Like they add bloopers at the end of their podcast. Yeah. It is very fun. And I never feel like I'm laughing out. person, I feel like I'm like with them as like their friend, just like having a laugh, you know. Yeah, I think it's very, it, it just humanizes people and we all want to know that everyone's

human. So for podcasts, it's nice to be more free flowing. But when it comes to ads on our podcast and like working with sponsors, we have to be a little bit more structured because the ad is like a much more condensed of space of time and you also want to convert somebody to actually buy. And so we need to have certain structure there. And I know you're an expert on this. So can you talk us through like how do we structure stories that keep people listening and not fast forwarding on their podcast player? I think you need to be really succinct when you do an ad because you don't want it to be rambling and go on forever. So I think I think finding a structure, a beginning, middle, and end is really important. and finding a story that relates, not to you, but to the audience,

finding a story of your own that would relate to why they would want to buy something. So, for instance, I'm drinking coffee right now, and it's a really helpful coffee. So if my audience, I want them to buy coffee, I have to think about why they need the coffee, what it gives them, and then find a story that sounds from, usually you can, and I always say, take stories from your real life. Like maybe I would be really, really groggy if I hadn't had my coffee. And so we want to show that. You know, maybe. And so you want to open up with like the problem. I'm, I'm completely unable to speak yet. And you could hear a mumbly person. And then you could sort of say, until I have this coffee. And then that makes me able to talk and have a conversation. And then maybe a little

reminder of why you need it again and then tell them where to get it in 60 seconds. Yeah. Okay. That's a lot to pack in there. So I think when I saw you at She Podcast Live, you gave a 60 second story formula. Could you break that down for us? Sure. So the beginning would be the problem. You want to state the problem in the beginning of the spot. And then that would be the first, maybe 15, 20 seconds. And then the next 15, 20 seconds, you want to show how that product or service helps that problem for another 15, 20 seconds. And then I would remind them in that maybe for about five seconds what the problem was. And then the last 10 seconds, I would say, give them the information of where they can get it. So we're naming the problem and kind of reiterating the problem and then offering like a benefit solution. Yeah, organic. Right. You want it to be organic.

Talk to me more about the benefits because this seems like the most crucial part of the story. So what's the best way to talk about a product's benefits so it sounds organic? I think it's to make sure that the problem you state up front actually is organic. to the benefit. So if the problem is you need to wake up in the morning and then you say, and with this kind of coffee, I can wake up in the morning. And this is how it makes my life better. I think that's organic. So that's how to say, you know, this coffee doesn't make me jittery. So I'm not a jittery mess all day. It doesn't hurt my stomach. It makes me feel like I can get on with my day. maybe even a little superwomanish, and then say, because I really don't want to feel blah, blah, yucky,

and then say, so go over to here and get it at whatchmocallot.com. And I would only say that twice. And I would also say that when your client comes to you, your product or your service, you say to them two benefits. That's all you get. Give me two strong copy points of what you want your audience to know. any more than that and you're going to confuse everybody. Yeah, we don't want to overwhelm them.

We just want to give them like two things that will stick in their brain. Yeah, and they are going to want to give you more than that. They're going to say, no, we want you to say all of these things. And you just say, yeah, I want them to want your product. So I'm going to take the two that are the most important to you and we'll work on those. Yeah, I like what you just said about telling them I want people to buy your product. because that's what sponsors want to hear, right? Because that was actually a question that I had for you.

When you are working with sponsors, what is that upfront conversation where you're setting expectations and deciding on like collaboration and creative control? Well, I think when they come to, my company's called the Radio Ranch, and I think when they come to the Radio Ranch for commercials, they know they're coming for comedy commercials.

I'm very specific with them, what we need. And because we've been around so long, I think they kind of trust that we know the deal. And we usually, with like a radio ranch commercial, we would brainstorm ideas first. So they would give us all the copy points. We would pick out two that we like.

And then we would brainstorm stories. There's like three or four of us writers. And we will brainstorm write down ideas. And this, I think, is really important when you have a, a product or a service that you're selling on your podcast, don't go with your first idea. Write down a bunch of different ideas and stories that relate to why this is a good product and what life is like without it. So I think, so we, then we write, but we first brainstorm

it, let me make a list of ideas, and then we write, and then we read it out loud, and then we write some more, and then we hop in studio. Okay. And so you create these, like, you do all this brainstorming. Is that before you talk to the sponsor about your ideas? Or do you just do everything and not ask their opinion on anything? You just do it. No, we send them a briefing sheet. We send them a briefing sheet which says, you know, what are your top three benefits? What do you want your audience to feel? How do you want them to feel? Why should they have their product? What's your competition? Who are they? Who's the audience you're talking to? What's their age range? where do they live?

How much money do they make? So all of those things come in to consideration when you're talking to your audience. Now with podcasters, it's a little different because you know who your audience is. They come to you for a specific reason. So it's a little easier to sort of play to them directly. You do some work with somebody named Jonathan Fields.

I do. Could you tell us who he is and why he would be doing an ad for third, is it third love? Third love? Yeah. Yeah. So Jonathan has an amazing podcast called The Good Life Project, which is pretty huge. And he had a, and he has a lot of women that listen to his podcast.

So Third Love bras came to him. He was like, I really don't. How am I going to sell bras? And his wife said, well, I really like their bras. So we had to find a way that Jonathan could sell the bras because his audience would want them without him saying, you know, because he obviously doesn't wear bras. So that was a little tricky. So we found that Jonathan sort of handed it over to people around him. So he would, or he would be so amazed that everybody was so interested in it.

So we found stories from his wife. We found stories from other coworkers. I actually told my stories. I think I said, you know, I end up always taking my bra off in the car on the way home somewhere. So every week I'm kind of wondering how I'm going to tell you about our sponsor, Third Love. And this week, I got a message from somebody on our production crew that kind of helps me do the job. Hey, Jonathan, I saw that Third Love is still one of our sponsors. And that makes me so happy because I still really love my bras from Third Love.

Hands down, they are the most comfortable bras I have ever worn in my life. And I have been wearing bras for 30 years, so I know what I'm talking about. And one of my friends said she heard us talking about third love bras on GLP, and she went out and took the FitFinder quiz on their website, and she found the perfect bra for her. And she can't stop gushing about her perfect bra. And that makes me feel like we are doing such an amazing service for the world. Honestly, I can't tell you how innovative they are,

that they actually have half-sized bras. Really, they should get the Nobel. prize for bras. Is there a Nobel prize for bras? Because I think there should be. I mean, how impressive is it that 10 million women have taken the quiz? And Third Love really has amazing customer service, plus free and easy returns. So, I'm not saying that I don't like working for you, but I'm actually thinking of working for Third Love. So Third Love knows there is a

perfect bra for everyone. Right now, they're offering all of our listeners, that be you 15% off your first order. Go to third love.com slash good life now to find your perfect fitting bra and get 15% off your first purchase. That's third love.com slash good life for 15% off today. And so we just use those real moments and that's how we we did that for Jonathan. I think that's brilliant because I wouldn't really want a man telling me what kind of bra I should get. However, hearing from his wife and hearing them have like a discussion about it, that makes total sense. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And knowing his audience, like, if his audience has a lot of women, then that ad makes total sense. If obviously he didn't

have a lot of women in his audience, it wouldn't make sense. And it's interesting because third love has this whole data point to it where they do surveys and they really do their research. So he could talk about that because he's fascinated by data. So he could come in and go, and know what the else they do, which is really interesting, which is why they know. And so he could talk about that. You also have a really fun ad about Tiger Bomb. Oh, yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that one?

So I had a boss many years ago who was like a weekend warrior and he would come back on Mondays and always like soak his feet at our Monday morning me. and he'd wear just a towel, which would never go these days, ever. And it was always very disconcerting that he'd sit there in the meeting with, like, no pants on, soaking his, like, ankles and feet. I don't know why he couldn't just roll his pants up, but he didn't. And so Tiger Bomb came to us, and they were all about weekend warriors. And so we just took that idea. When we were brainstorming ideas, I said, oh, I had a boss once who always soaked his feet.

And so we just took it a little more heightened to a boss who made everyone do the Monday morning meetings while he was in the bathtub. Sir, I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we've been having our Monday morning meetings. A little uncomfortable? Well, extremely uncomfortable with meeting in your bathroom, sir, while you're in the tub. Well, I'm wearing a tie. I can see that, sir. Over the weekends, I play ball with the kids, do yard work and play tennis. So by Monday, my muscles are very sore.

Spending all day in a hot tub is anything that helps. Have you tried? Grapping myself in cabbage leaves? Yes, I have. Actually, sir, I was thinking of Tiger Balm pain relieving patches. Tiger balm, a little jar with a tiger on it? Yeah, right. Tiger Balm, it's been around for about 100 years. Jinkies.

And now Tiger Balm comes in these neat pain relief patches. Could you hand me that duck there? You just stick the patch on where it hurts, same tiger on the package. Uh-huh. And Tiger Balm's pain relief patches are very fast acting and long-lasting, so we wouldn't have to meet in your bathroom every Monday. And I'd be less pruny, and your report wouldn't be in the microwave. What?

I dropped your report in the tub, so I put it at the dryer, but it caught fires when my wife doused it with water and put it in the microwave. Let me just go grab it. No, no, don't get up, sir. Oops, sorry, sitting back down. Long-lasting, fast-acting, pain-relieving tiger bomb patch. Works where it hurts. Yeah, so I think the idea, like, your idea for the, when you were speaking about this, that she podcast live was when we're thinking about stories for our ads, I mean, think from every aspect of your life. It could be something that you're, like, pulling from a long time ago.

Yeah, I think it's interesting to see what all the triggers are. Like, what's the benefit fit and then where did you need that in your life? What would life be like without it? Who has that that you don't? And the stories of other people too sometimes really works. And I think that there's stories that we don't even realize, but it's finding a story, a real life story, and then maybe enhancing it a little bit if you want to do comedy. Taking into the next level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you said that for ads we should have like a beginning. middle and end, like a real story. And I've heard you say that we should have some element of conflict. So talk to us a little bit more about conflict and how we could use that in something

that's sort of like run at the mill doesn't seem like there's that much conflict involved. So I think any product or service you want to buy has conflict because if you don't have it, the conflict falls in there. And conflict is what makes people listen. It's what pulls people in. Any good writing, theater, movies, radio plays, has a little bit of conflict. It has conflict in it because that's what draws you in and you want to see somebody solve something. In commercials, they always call the main person who goes through the transformation

and ends up with the product, the hero. So it's a little bit like the hero's journey, right? You just always want to see someone solve. something and if they solve it with your product, that makes you want it. Right. So, yeah, when we're not really selling toothbrushes or like vacuum cleaners, we're solving better like relationships and different mental clarity and all that type of. Yeah. And internal and external, right? Right. And even toothbrushes, it's like, well, wait a second, this really solves my dilemma. Before I would end up like one side of my mouth was always like got cavities and the other side didn't.

and I never understood why until I got the what is it the quip toothbrush and then it has a little timer in it and it just makes me so completely my whole mouth gets all the attention so it's not like my right

bottom side is the best so now I want to quip so that's conflict well and repetition is key right like hearing the same ad over and over again just talking about quip right now I'm thinking, like, in the past, if I had heard about quip like a few times, yeah, I could take it or leave it.

But I heard about quip so much from so many people that, like, I was very, I almost bought one. Didn't quite get there yet, but I'm sure I will. So I think repetition is, I also, it's funny, I just, Jonathan was just in L.A. And we actually were talking about this, the idea that podcasters should play the same ad more than once. like this is an issue in podcasting in general is that they want you to do it refresh this ad every time. And I think it makes it really uncreative. And I also think it it's tiring. And it's a lot of work. Whereas if you could take the time to make like three really good ads that you rotate within your podcast over a time, you're better. You're better off than sort of doing a new ad every week. And if it's a good ad, people look forward to it. So lots of times people will say to me, me. I was so happy to hear that. It was such a funny, great ad. I just love hearing that spot over and over again. Yeah. So when you say when people don't take the time to do those like three creative ones, they'll create uncreative ones, do you mean that's when they're just sort of like

going off the cuff today, hello fresh, like send me this box and it was great. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think if you know what, if you just, if you can take the time to really find the stories. And if you do as a podcast or have to refresh every. week, then if you've taken the time to make a list of stories, you can always go back to that and go, oh, okay, I'm going to do this one this week. And maybe if you don't have time to script it out, which I say with commercials, you should script it out, so that you don't end up with a two-minute ad. But I think it then gives you, if you can just make a little outline, here's the problem, there's the conflict, this is how I solve it, and this is where you can get it.

And so how long should the ad be? I say 60 seconds. Okay. Any longer. I mean, I do 30 second ads all the time for broadcasters, and then basically you just start in the conflict and then solve it. And that's it. And I think you could easily do it in 60 seconds. Yeah.

And if you're telling a good story, then it will fly by anyway. Exactly. So how many ads should be in a podcast, or like how many would you? be too many. I think, well, I think three is about right. You know, maybe you have one or two in the beginning, maybe one mid-roll and then call it a day. And the mid-roll would be like the 60-second one? Yeah, halfway through. I would say like halfway through if you want to put an ad in, if you want to stop and go, here's a little ad from our sponsor, which is why we're here. So I think you can, you can do that. But I think when people have three ads up front, it's overwhelming.

Yeah. Well, that's when people hit fast forward, right? When they're like, oh, God, it's guaranteed seven minutes of ads. I am not listening to any of these. Whereas if it's just 30 seconds people, I think, or 60 seconds, people will listen to it. Yeah. And so if you have 360 second ads up front, that's three minutes. Yeah. And whoever's in the middle is not going to get heard. And so, I mean, I think two is probably the best. I know people don't make as much money when they have two ads as opposed to three. But I think eventually if they're getting really good results, you can ask for more money. So I think quality versus quantity.

It's a better experience for listeners, for sure. So when we put in the ads, do we have to say no word from our sponsor? or what are some more creative ways we can differentiate that this is a different ad? I don't think you need to do that at all. You can use music as like a little music bumper to sort of transition into an ad. You don't have to say that at all. I don't think you actually, if your ad is good enough, you don't need to. You can have a little music bumper.

It depends on your audience. Maybe they want you to say here comes an ad. But if it's a really good ad, it just sounds like a really organic, natural transition. Yeah. I've heard shows before where they're like very into a very deep conversation. And then she's like, this is a great conversation. But first, let's have like a quick little 30 second like ad from our sponsor.

And I was like, whoa, you just totally. Yeah. And I would say if you do a mid-roll, if you're putting an ad in the middle of your, look for like a chapter end. There's at the end of a conversation, not in the middle of. a conversation. Every podcast has sort of chapters. So yeah, I think when people are just injecting the ads, that's sometimes where things go. Right. Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of, I guess there's a lot of people doing that. I know

Jonathan has, he's with Wondry and they use, I forget who they use, but they actually, we pick where we want it inserted. And then they can insert whatever ad they want there, but we pick the spots. Okay, that makes so much more sense than cutting off a sentence because I've heard that before and I was like, oh, this sounds awful. Yeah. Actually, I think he does, like, I don't know if he does one at the beginning. He may, I don't remember what he's doing right now, but he does like a 20 minute and a 40 minute ad. And usually it's one or two ads in the middle. You know, so maybe at 20 minutes there's one and then at 40 minutes there's one and that's it. Okay, so 20 minutes in and then 40 minutes in. Yeah, just putting on a whole lot. I mean, my podcast is a half an hour, so I would probably just do one up front and call it a day.

Okay. So you recommend scripting these stories, which totally make sense. How can we not sound scripted when we're reading? Such a good question. So I think we have to say it a bunch of times in order to not sound scripted and we have to understand what the story is. my, the way I usually, when I'm in a, when I'm teaching voiceover, this has always been the way I do it, but I have them speed read it a couple times because people end up going too slow when they script stuff. So I have them speed read it and then I have them turn the page over and improvise it and then flip the page and just sort of read it normal speed. But sometimes this, when they speed read it, one of those is perfect. Because they're not going to as fast as they think.

So do you record that? And then it's like, that's the keeper. Yeah. And sometimes in studio, we actually speed up. We speed it all up a little bit. Just a hair. You know, if it's a dialogue commercial. And it's fun to do dialogue commercials.

Maybe pull somebody in from your life to help you with it. Say, you know, and do it that way. It doesn't always have to just be one person for sure. Yes. I have found that the ads that I enjoyed most is the conversation or like between two people or a group like Pod Save America. I think those guys, as far as like ad lemming ads, those guys do the best. I don't know if it makes me want to buy their ads, buy their stuff the way they do the ads.

It's interesting. They're entertaining, but it doesn't necessarily make me want to buy it. There's no organic sort of like, oh, I need to get this. So I would really be curious what their conversion rate is on Pod Save America because I love Pod Save America, but I don't ever want to buy their products. You know, that's a great point. I guess there can be a difference between pure entertainment and then entertainment that also converts. Because as you said, they're not necessarily talking about any sort of benefits or anything. like that. They're just joking around most of the time. Right. Yeah. And the story has to be

organic to your product. So just saying the copy in an entertaining way is not advertising. I think there's an art to sort of making sure that you find the conflict of why that person needs it and making it sound real and like you're not just, I mean, they literally just sound like they hate them and they're getting through it as fast as they can. which makes it entertaining but not necessarily advertising. Yeah, I guess what I like about them is I really like the friendly relationship between all of those guys. And so it just gives me a warm feeling. And I think I would buy products from them just because I like them, not necessarily,

because of their ad delivery or anything like that. But to your point, yeah, I mean, there is a structure to the, adds that convert, which you've talked to us about. Do you have any other tips on how to give a great performance? I think just really understanding the story you're telling and why you're telling it. And that's why I think reading it over and over and over again is kind of a really good idea and maybe improvising on it and not doing it in one take, just recording all of the different takes. And then maybe you even go, oh, I like the beginning of this and the end of this. And so that I think just spending a little more time reading it out loud and really understanding what you're saying.

Okay. So treat it as a podcast, like a very mini podcast. Yeah. Because you're telling a story. You want the audience to know that you understand what you're saying because you want them to buy the product or service. So I think it's really important that you make sure you know what you're saying. And I think that's with Pod Save America. They don't know what they're saying half the time. They're just reading copy. And I get the copy from those people, and they're reading it verbatim usually. Whereas someone like Mark Marin, who comes from the world of radio, is super good at that.

Or Howard Stern, you can just hand them copy because they have the practice on how to do that. They understand because they have such big radio backgrounds on how to make a story out of it. So they naturally tell a story and do a beginning, and they're very, they're conscious of time because they're on the radio. So they only have a certain amount of time. So I think because that's where they came from before the world of podcasting and internet radio, they have a really good understanding. I would say that they're pretty masterful at doing that. Yeah, maybe we should all practice doing more live video to get comfortable, just having to be present and there and in the moment and not meandering. Yeah, time yourself. Say if you're going to do it, if you're just going to do it with bullet points, then use a stopwatch and time yourself and see how long you go.

I think that's really important. Say, oh, okay, I thought that was a minute, but it was actually two and a half minutes. Well, you've given us such great advice, Lisa, just to read. recap. So all of our ads need to have a beginning, middle, and end, some conflict. Talk about two benefits. So address the problem with like a personal story. And then the solution is like the two benefits of the product. And then happy resolution. Yay, under 60 seconds. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to talk to us about storytelling or anything else? I think one other thing I would say is make sure your lines are short. So when you write it out, make sure you have like short sentences and you make and you write how you talk. I think that that's really important is make it into

actual speaking language. So do you think like maybe a hack to get better at that would be to sort of like speak out our ideas a little bit first and then hear how we would naturally say it and then maybe work from there? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Well, Lisa, where can we find out more about you and your show and your kind of work? They can go to Lisaorgantcreative.com and that has everything on it and that just has little places you can go listen to Project Woo-woo. And that has all my old podcasts as well, Love Bites and honestly Lisa. So there's a bunch of different stuff on there. And it also has information if you want to hire me as well. So all of that. there. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today. Sure. And I'll see you in Florida. Okay. I'll see you in Florida. Thank you for listening to podcasting step by step. You are now one step

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