Influential Introvert: Communication Coaching for Professionals with Performance Anxiety - Podcast SEO: Optimizing for the Humans with Daniel J.Lewis

Episode Date: January 20, 2020

We all want to make it as easy as possible for people to discover our podcasts. So how can we make sure the search engines find us? How can we “optimize our podcasts?”    My guest today says that when it comes to search engine optimization (SEO), we should be less concerned about the robots and more focused on people.    I’m speaking with Daniel J. Lewis, host of the Audacity to Podcast, on how we can integrate SEO tactics into our content in a human-centric way to serve and grow our audiences.    If you’re unsure what SEO tactics are, no worries, we will break this down for you in today’s episode. But essentially, SEO when done right, increases your visibility and gets your content in front of the right people.    Daniel is founder of the online course SEO for Podcasters, as well as the online community Podcaster’s Society, which is open to all podcasters after they’ve published their first episode.   *** Visit sarahmikutel.com for more resources on how to podcast.   Ready to start your own show? Download my free guide: “8 Mistakes New Podcasters Make and How to Fix Them.”    Looking for a podcast media host? Use my Libsyn affiliate code POSTCARD to get the rest of this month for free and next month free.    I’m your podcast launch consultant, Sarah Mikutel. If you’d like to learn more about me, you can check out my other podcast, Postcard Academy travel podcast. This travel podcast is for the ‘experiences not things’ kind of person who believes travel goes deeper than a fantastic meal (though that is pretty great). Every week, I interview people who packed up everything to start a new adventure in another part of the world. You’ll learn how they did it and get their best insider food and culture tips.    Thank you so much for listening to Podcasting Step by Step. I know you’re busy and have many listening options, sDo you ever go blank or start rambling when someone puts you on the spot? I created a free Conversation Cheat Sheet with simple formulas you can use so you can respond with clarity, whether you’re in a meeting or just talking with friends.Download it at sarahmikutel.com/blanknomore and start feeling more confident in your conversations today.

The premise I really recommend podcasters take is not take an SEO approach thinking I'm optimizing for search engines. Instead, think of it like an H-S-E-O approach, optimizing for humans who use search engines. Have you been wanting to start a podcast for a while now, but something's holding you back? Maybe it's fear of putting yourself out there or confusion about the technology. I'm Sarah Mikital and on podcasting step by step, I'll break down how to podcast with a little loving motivation to give you the skills and the confidence you need to finally launch that show of your dreams. Let's get started. We all want to make it as easy as possible for people to discover our podcasts.

When they're searching for the kind of content that we create, we want to be front and center. So how can we make sure that the search engines find us? How can we optimize our podcasts? Actually, my guest today says that when it comes to search engine optimization or SEO, we should be less concerned about what the robots think and more focused on people. I'm speaking with Daniel J. Lewis, host of the Audacity to Podcast, on how we can integrate SEO tactics into our content in a more human-centric way so we can better serve and grow our audiences.

If you are unsure what SEO tactics are, no worries. we will break this down for you in today's episode. But essentially, SEO, when done right, increases your visibility and gets your content in front of the right people. Daniel is founder of the online course SEO for podcasters, as well as the online community podcaster society, which is open to all podcasters after they publish their first episode. Now into my conversation with Daniel. Welcome, Daniel. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, Sarah. I love talking about podcasting. So you host the audacity to podcast. What was the first podcast that you ever hosted? The first show I ever did was called The Raman Noodle, a clean comedy podcast that was basically a pod

fade in progress for its first two years. Because I only had two years, only nine episodes published over two years, which is not a good schedule. No. So why only nine in two years? I was trying to be a perfectionist. I was editing everything to absolute detail, both the script, and that was one big thing there that was taking so much time. I was writing my scripts, refining them, expanding them, and then I would record them. And any little mistake I would make, I would have to edit that and listen back through. And it would take me hours and hours, even days of solid work, like 10 hours or more, to end up with only a 10 to 15 minute long episode. It was just trying to be too perfect.

Okay, this is so important because a lot of us have these perfectionist tendencies when it comes to things that we care about. And when it comes to putting our voice out into the world, it can be really intimidating to new people. So what advice do you have for new podcasters who are struggling with this perfectionism? Don't try to be perfect. Just jump in. Try to be natural.

Try to be yourself. Now, that doesn't mean ween it. Definitely prepare. Write a basic outline of what you're going to talk about first. So you know where you're going to go with the conversation. You know how you're going to transition from point A to point B. Practice those in your mind. So you are preparing, but you don't have to script things. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's okay if there's an um here and there. I do recommend you learn how to edit yourself instead of trying to edit your audio. But become a a good communicator so that when you record something, you can listen back. And yes, you may recognize some areas you can improve, but you'll feel like, yeah, that was a good episode. We had a good conversation or I explained that or presented that well. And it comes with time. We can't expect

to sound how we want to straight off the bat. And I think you're spot on with what you said, become a better communicator. And when you're editing yourself, you're going to start realizing certain styles of speaking that you might want to change. And once you become aware of that, then you will start speaking differently. So I think people just need to be a little bit less hard on themselves and just start practicing more. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So Daniel, you have a course out called SEO for podcasters. I know that you're working on a bigger and better version for 22 with all sorts of great updates.

So I would love to talk to you about what's going on in the state of. of SEO right now. But I guess before we get to that, for those of us who don't know a lot about SEO, can you break us, break it down for us? Like, what is SEO exactly and why should podcasters care about it? Yeah, SEO stands for search engine optimization. And it is something that you do in order to make your content appear better in searches. So you are optimizing your content for search engines. But the premise I really recommend podcasters take is not, take an SEO approach thinking I'm optimizing for search engines. Instead, think of it like an H-S-E-O approach, optimizing for humans who use search engines, because these search engines

are becoming more human-like in their behaviors. And that's not to say they'll take over the world someday, but that they are prioritizing what humans prioritize. Like, when people search the internet for something, they want a website that loads quickly. They want the relevant information. They want the right results. They want a secure experience. These are the kinds of things that Google and other web-based search engines are prioritizing. And that's what we should be prioritizing in our content, too.

Really focusing most on making our content findable for humans. And a big difference here is, for example, the AOL keyword days of 1990s and such, where we might want to rank for a single keyword. like podcast. Well, that's the way a machine thinks. That's not the way a human thinks. A human would think I want to know how to podcast or I want a podcast about this topic or a discussion about this or they might not even know they want a podcast. They just know they want a particular topic. And people are starting to type in more specific terms into search engines as well. So it's becoming less robotic in how people are using search engines. So really focusing on making your content findable for

humans who use the search engines. I love that you're adding in the human element. And okay, so we are gone of the days of trying to rank for one keyword. It sounds like you're saying we need to think about those more long-tail keywords that people are putting in to get really specific information. Could you talk about more about the research we should be doing to find the best keywords for our audience? And like, what are some of your favorite search tools or research tools right now for this? Now, some good ones. First of all, just think on your own. If you were interested in this subject, what would be some of the things you would search for? Like, let's take podcasting, for example, since that's the whole subject here, you might think, all right, how do I

podcast. How do I grow my audience? How do I get sponsors for my podcast? How do I make my podcast rank better? Think of those questions that someone in your industry, in your niche, would be interested in asking. And that's a great starting point. If you're struggling with thinking of what some of those questions might be, then you can start using some of these other tools. One of them is simply using Google. Start typing something into Google and you can combine your keywords in different ways. and you might start seeing some suggested search queries. Like if I start typing in how to podcast and then a space bar, what does it recommend next?

It might say how to podcast for free or how to podcast for my business or how to podcast with audacity, how to podcast with WordPress. See, those are completely different topics that are being suggested right there inside of Google. In addition to that, there are many other SEO, tools. And some of them are changing in the industry. Like right now, Google does provide this keyword planning tool, but that's changing and focusing more on advertising, less on SEO.

But there are other tools like AHRFs is a tool that I've heard of. That's the letter A, H, R-E-F-S, and some other tools like that where you enter a keyword or a few keywords, and it will show you these are things people search for. This is how popular these particular searches are, and that can also give you additional ideas for content. Sometimes you might create content specifically to answer that question or address that thing you've searched for. Sometimes it can inspire other content or it can even give you actual episode title ideas. Yes, I love that about the episode ideas because you're giving your audience exactly what they're seeking out. So sticking along with like search,

findability in podcasting apps is different than on websites. How does search work in the podcasting apps right now? And how is it changing? Yeah, it is a little bit of a mixed experience because the podcast apps will rank results differently. Now, first thing to know is it will match, it will include only results that match the keyword. So if I'm talking about how podcast, but I never use those words anywhere in my podcast or in my written content, I'm not going to match for it. My podcast probably won't match for how to bake a cake because I never say that in my content. So that's the first thing is you're not going to show up if you don't use those keywords. But most of these podcast apps put a very heavy priority on the podcast title,

that is the overall name of your show. And also a big priority on. the individual episode titles. So those are the places that you should focus on most for using your keywords. And when I say keywords, I'm not saying just a list of words like podcast, cake, basketball, football, sports. But keywords as in what would a human want to search for? What would interest a human? Not simply a list of keywords, but something like how to bake a cake, how to start a podcast,

how to grow your podcast, those kinds of things. So those are keywords. though they're more like phrases, and don't try to use them all in one place. Instead, look at your list of episodes as a portfolio of content for your podcast so that you do an episode all about one topic and that episode can help you rank for that topic. Then you do another episode about a different topic. So you're building your SEO over time, not just all in one big dump. And that won't work if you try to. in one dump. So if you do it for each episode, then as people find those episodes, both in podcast

apps and through website searches, it will take them to your podcast for that content because they'll see this is a relevant title. It looks like a relevant topic. This is exactly what I'm searching for. So putting those keywords or phrases in those appropriate places, most importantly, your titles is really important and it needs to be relevant. It also needs to be compelling more than just episode one, which is one of the worst kinds of titles you could have for an episode. It needs to be descriptive so people know what are they going to get in this episode. And then that makes it much more promotable as well that you can share that title on social media and people will be interested in that. If I tweet out saying episode one, no one will care.

They don't know if I'm talking about Star Wars, if I'm talking about my podcast, there's no call to action, there's nothing compelling about that. But if the episode title was instead, how to make $1 million with your podcast overnight, that's not a thing you can do, by the way. But if that was the title, then that would be interesting, compelling, and descriptive of the content that's in it. So that's how predominantly how podcast apps are working right now. Some apps do also search the show level description of your podcast, but most apps don't. And it's a little different which apps search where. But the main thing to remember, when you're describing your overall podcast, whether that's in a short tagline or full description, is don't try to stuff it with

keywords. Think of optimizing for humans. Yes, you can use a few keywords in there, but really focus on convincing the humans who find your content, why they should listen to it or watch it. Yeah, I think that's the rule to live by. Because if you're thinking about the actual human being and what value you can offer them, that does help you be more focused and, you know, less all over the place. So if we want to be found, let's not try to just like throw the kitchen sink at someone and see what sticks, but let's be very specific and intentional and help them out with what they need in this moment. Exactly. And being intentional leads into your other question that you ask about how are these apps changing? And I like the way that they're changing this.

Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts are indexing spoken word content. For many years, all that search engines knew about your podcast was what you put in the text. Show notes are a big thing, especially for Google. Continue doing that, for sure. But these podcast apps are starting to index what you say so that even if something doesn't exist in written form, your podcast might be findable for it because you said it in your podcast. And where this intentionality comes in is that you need to remember to say those kinds of things that you want to be found for. Now, please, for the love of pods, do not start your

podcast saying passive income, Pat Flynn, Zig Zigler, blah, blah, blah, all these keywords. Now let's get into the episode. No, that's not going to work. In fact, I would suspect that at some point, podcast apps will probably ignore what happens in the first minute or something. so knowing that that's when most audio branding is in and it's repeated content episode after episodes. So they might ignore that kind of thing. But what I mean by being intentional is, let's say we're doing a movie review podcast and you want to be found for that movie. What I tend to hear happen a lot in podcasts is they'll start the conversation saying something like this. Today we're going to talk about Star Wars, The Force Awakens. And then the rest of the

episode, they just keep saying the movie, the movie, the movie. That doesn't help with your search engine ranking very well, either in written form or in spoken form. But you also don't want to go the other side where you're like a news broadcaster and constantly saying the proper nouns every single time. But think of it as resetting the context every few minutes so that both for the search engines, but also for the humans who are listening, they just get that subtle reminder of what you're talking about. Because especially now these days with truly wireless earbuds, making it much easier for people to listen to podcasts while they're doing all kinds of things, they can get distracted every now and then, and they might be listening, or they might

pause an episode and resume it later, and then they might forget what movie are we talking about. Yes, they can look at their podcast app and see the title, if you've got to describe it. title, that is. But don't rely on that. Don't depend on their having to look at their phones to know what you're talking about. So every now and then, just in the conversation, weave in the title of that thing you're talking about or recite something that you mentioned at the beginning. Like if you're doing an educational podcast where you're sharing 10 tips for something, instead of only saying those 10 tips in the middle, every now and then, remind them. tip number five for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is, and then you give that tip.

Or weave that into how you introduce each tip. So that way, you are resetting the context for the humans listening, as well as those are giving you more keywords for those audio-based transcription-based search engines to be able to index that content. And you have to also be careful with made-up things. if you're a podcast title or certain terms are made up words or a combination of words or something weird like that spelled weirdly or anything, be prepared to not show up very well or to have a few struggles there with some of the searches. I think that will improve with time as artificial

intelligence will start looking at context and figuring out what you probably meant. But it really means you need to be intentional about how you communicate. And I think all of this and just approaching SEO with your podcast can make you a better communicator. So even if you don't rank better in searches, you can end up being a better podcaster. So it sounds like we need to take some tips from the radio folk who are getting into podcasting. We can actually learn a thing or two from them when it comes to repeating ourselves and maybe assuming people might drift in and out, and we can help reset their focus by giving them these reminders.

Exactly. Sun Su said in The Art of War, if you do not listen to your competitors' podcasts, you will be doomed to repeat their mistakes. I'm pretty sure that's in there. But yeah, you need to learn, even if you look at radio podcasters as the enemy, which please don't look at them as the enemy, but we can learn these kinds of things from them,

because they are used to people coming and going, listening to their content. Although we have the benefit, huge benefit in our podcast that almost everyone hears the beginning of your podcast. So that context is initially set. We just need to maintain that context and maintain the interest of our audience because it is even easier for them to just decide, I don't like this episode. I'm going to skip this. No, sometimes they do that because the topic does. appeal to them. And that, I think, is totally okay. But don't let them skip because you become boring or because you lose your context. Right. Right. So, Daniel, how are these audio transcripts

that are happening in the background showing up insert engines these days? And do you expect it to change at all? Like, can you explain a little bit more what's going on and what you, like, future forecast? It's really happening behind the scenes. And it's all completely automated right now, at least. I think, and I really hope that they do this someday in the future, that we can force a transcription. Like, if we have a transcription that we know is accurate, we've edited it, we have all of those proper nouns, properly written and everything, and spelling is all correct, and that's what we want, Google and other podcast apps and search engines to index. I think that someday will have that option to override it with that, although I know there are, our

some concerns about people abusing that, certainly, where they put keywords in their transcription that aren't in the actual episode. So I think there's a balance there. But right now it's all behind the scenes. You can't change how it's working, and you may not even see what's being indexed, although some apps may highlight it like Apple Podcasts right now

for the podcasts that are being indexed. It will show you when you search for something, and this is only in the latest Apple Podcasts, both on MacOS and iOS, it will show you that the search result matched the transcript. So it might say transcript, colon, and a little bit of where that particular term you searched for matches. I think that Google and other search engines and other podcast apps might implement something

very similar where you get to see a little bit of the context around what matched instead of simply seeing this episode matched. And I think that more and more podcast apps may even allow you to jump directly to that, which can be really helpful for an events-based podcast or something where you cover many topics in an episode. And you can't put all of those topics in the title, but you can make sure that you have good headlines and good show notes and such for your content. So maybe someone is searching for podcasts about a particular topic, and you covered that

as point number four among 10 points in your episode, these podcast apps will eventually allow people to jump straight to where you talked about that particular point. Wow. Okay. You mentioned the importance of show notes. And I think a lot of podcasters have the awareness that they should have show notes for SEO purposes, but they aren't exactly even sure what that means.

Could you just give us like a high level? Like, if we're doing show notes, what should we, be thinking about so that we can actually rank in Google because there's no point in like trying to have good show notes if nobody finds them, right? Exactly. And show notes and SEO even won't necessarily work the same for everyone. Like a comedy podcast, for example, most likely people aren't going to be searching for particular stories. They may search for comedy around certain topics like political comedy or weather comedy or pet comedy, things like that, general topic based, but not more specifics on things like comedy or other entertainment-focused items.

But what I think you need to consider with your show notes is answering this basic question as many times as you need to. What was that blank? What was that guest? What was that book they mentioned? What was that tip they mentioned? What was that image, what was that video, what was that resource, what was that information, what was that step number five in this process? Answer that question. That's what your show notes need to do. I think the best way to do that is to write your show notes as if they're an article. And yes, that does mean someone might read your show notes instead of listening to your podcast. But I think you need to see that as perfectly acceptable because at least they're getting the information from you

and you are building that relationship by giving them what they came for. I think if people find your podcast and they're greeted with a giant play button and nothing else, they might turn away because they don't want to sift through an hour-long podcast to find a one-minute answer. But if you can put that in your show notes, they get that information from you instead of from your competitors. So as much as you can, try to write your show notes as if you can. They're an article accompanying your podcast in the same post with your podcast episode,

and that will also show up in podcast apps as well. You could consider using transcriptions instead, but I think transcriptions are kind of a lazy way of doing show notes, and transcriptions can be really difficult to read if you have more than one person on your podcast. The other more simpler thing you could look at doing is simply listing your topics with the relevant links, if you have other links, but try as much as possible to be as descriptive as possible, even if it's only one paragraph to describe what you talked about over five or 10 minutes of time in your audio. Does length matter these days for Google? It does in that it's tied with the quality of it. So you can't just go in there and say,

really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really important tip, that's pointless length and it decreases the quality of your content. And this is a reason why transcriptions don't work very well sometimes in search. They work better than nothing, but they don't work as good as articles because transcriptions end up being a lot of words but lower quality content. So don't simply have a word limit target, but do try, I'd say at least 300 words written of content, but shoot for 500 or 600. Now, that's just an arbitrary number from my head, but shoot for that being that descriptive inside of your written content. Yeah, and it all goes back to what you said about being human. Like, these search engines want you to be human and they're getting

smarter and transcripts are lazy. Like you said, they're a bad user experience. Not good for other humans to read. So you don't want to just throw up that big block of text. But does article structure matter as much as it used to? For people who don't know, you've got like your big headline, which is called an H1, and then like subtopics are called like H2. Does this matter as much these days? It does still matter for multiple reasons and a big reason is going back to that human factor. If you do any episode that has ever titled something like with a number, like 10 tips for such and such, you better have each of those tips either in a nice bullet point list near the top of your content or somewhere that's easy to see, or each of those tips better be

a subheading in your content because, yes, that does allow people to skim your content, but it goes back to it's better for them to skim and get what they need from you than not getting it at all or having to go elsewhere. So I really recommend your H1 tag, and this would most likely be automatically set by your software that you're writing your show notes and publishing your podcast with, but your H1 tag would be the title of the episode. It's the largest text on the page. There's only one. It is the title of this content. And then you start with H2 and beyond, giving your content some structure and hierarchy so that people can skim through it, but also, so it's easier for people to follow to get that context, to see sections, to not have fatigue of just being

faced with this giant block of text or a hundred paragraphs, but it's broken up into sections and subheadings. And it also helps you communicate better, I think, because then you can, and I know this is a more masculine way, stereotypical masculine way of thinking, but you're kind of shifting from one bucket and one box to the other, keeping your conversation focused on that. And it can help you focus your communication. So you're not all over the place, but you're talking about, this particular subject at this time, you can reference other things, but it's all under this particular bullet point, and then you're moving on to the next bullet point or the next heading. That structure helps in the readability, in the visual look of your content, and it

does also help with the search engines, because especially if you do some kind of how-to or educational content and people search for it, Google and other search engines might actually pull those headings out to display in the search results. So if someone searches for how to bake a cake and you have the headings in your content, then when someone sees your content inside of Google without visiting your website yet, they can see step one, do this, step two, do that. And that can be from your headings, kind of like your table of contents. What else do we need to think about when it comes to keywords and showing up? I know that are like what topic we're focused on should be in our URL, in our photos.

How does that work exactly? Yeah, as much as you can use those keywords in places where it's relevant and not spammy. Don't stuff everything into particular areas. In fact, in 2018, 2017, 2019, Apple really started cracking down on people stuffing their keywords. And my SEO course, at this time in December 2019, my SEO course does. recommend some things that are now frowned upon. And that's a big reason why I'm changing the course

and putting out all new information along with everything else that needs to be updated. But don't try and stuff it everywhere and multiple keywords, but do use your keywords in places. So you might have a nice, descriptive, compelling title, and that gives you a really long URL. That's like My Awesomepodcast.com slash how dash 2 dash podcast, dash with dash WordPress, that's okay for it to be along like that because that does help contribute to your search. You can also name your images that way and along with your images,

especially add what are called alt tags. Those can be descriptions for the image. That not only helps you with the search, but that also helps with accessibility. So if someone is visually impaired coming to your website using a screen reader that reads the content of the screen to them, then when it gets to image, instead of simply saying image, it would say what you put in the alt text. So if you're displaying a graph, for example, then in your alt text for that image, describe what's in the image. It could say chart showing that 50% lean this way. So you're describing that and that also helps your search too because those are more opportunities for you to put in those keywords or to write text that is relevant to people looking for stuff

and it makes your content more accessible to those with some kind of impairment. And what about metadata? Metadata is in multiple places. So when we're talking about audio podcasts, there are metadata fields. inside of the MP3 files and AAC files. Those are your ID3 tags. I know I just said a bunch of letters. The ID3 tags are assigned to that file.

Those essentially don't matter at all for search engine optimization. They're really in there for compatibility and for showing some information to some apps. Most notably, if you have an episode-specific image showing inside of podcast or a other apps. But for your search, what you put in the ID3 tags does not matter at all. There are other meta data fields for places like your publishing platform. If there's a keywords field, it probably doesn't matter much to your off-site search. That would be like Google being podcast searches, podcast apps and such. But it might matter for your on-site search. So if someone comes to your website and they type in some keywords,

those tags or keywords that you enter in your publishing tool might matter for that. They might also help connect content with each other. So like for my podcast, I use the keyword audacity only for episodes where I actually talk about the audacity software so that then if you're reading or listening to an episode that's about the audacity software, then it might recommend or might be connected to other episodes about the same topic. There are some, Other fields here and there, which vary depending on your platform. But the most important content is really what you're putting out there that the humans will see. And some of this behind the scenes meta information might help a little bit. But since humans don't see that,

search engines don't prioritize that as much. How important are links, us linking to other people, other people linking to us, us linking to our own content? Internal and external links are hugely important for SEO because it helps give authority to the website that's being linked to. And it also helps build those relationships and the relevance between different content. So as much as you can, try to be a guest on other podcasts that are relevant in your space and try to have other people as guests on your own podcast. and that's giving you that opportunity to link to each other and to give a little bit of authority to each other. So this is also a good reason to consider

who do you want to give authority to with your platform and who do you think is going to be willing to give some of their authority to you and your platform. But how these links are connected ties in with the text context. So how people write, those links. This is another good reason why having descriptive titles is really good, because often people will link to episodes by hyperlinking the title of that episode. That title can then help

with your search so that your content is seen as authoritative on that text that's being used hyperlink it. So in other words, don't hyperlink click here. That's about the worst text you could use for a hyperlink, the absolute worst is putting in the URL in plain text for people to click on. So be descriptive. Yes, you can say click here, but add more to that. Click here to learn how to bake a cake. Click here to learn how to grow your podcast. Or you could simply say how to grow your podcast and hyperlink that.

So when Google sees this, they see, well, here's a really high authority, highly influential, highly ranking site linking to this other content. So this other content must be pretty good too. And the more that there are those other external links pointing back to your content, the better your reputation grows. Because that's how reputation works. The more that people say good things about you, the more that others will perceive your reputation as higher.

Your internal links also work in helping search engines see that relationship between your content and seeing that you're producing good content, that's relevant, that's connected to each other, and it can help older content still seem relevant when your new content is still linking back to it as kind of cornerstone information. Again, don't do this all the time. Don't link to all of your episodes with every new episode. Link to what is relevant. I think this is a really great place to close because it all goes back to being human, building relationships. I mean, that's the best of podcasting, I think.

You know, we're not working in isolation. We're actually speaking to people literally and figuratively. So Daniel, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Where can people find out more about you? The best place to go is my website, Theodacity topodcast.com and on social networks at the Daniel J. Lewis. And do you know when your course is going to be out? Probably first or second quarter of 2020.

I have a membership site that you're familiar with, Sarah, called Podcaster Society. And members there do get early access to the course and also get to see some of the information as it's being developed. But for when it's available to the public as something you can purchase or pre-order and then go through it at your own pace, probably closer to the middle of 2020, I would say. Well, I know it's going to be great, so I will definitely remind people when it comes out. So thank you again, Daniel. Thank you, Sarah. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for listening to podcasting step by step.

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