Inside Conan: An Important Hollywood Podcast - Bill Carter Revisits the War for Late Night

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

Writer Bill Carter (author of The War for Late Night) joins Mike Sweeney and Jessie Gaskell to discuss the significance of The Tonight Show for a generation of comedians, the behind-the-scenes drama surrounding Conan’s short-lived run at the show, the future of late night television, and why Bill decided to not publish an emotional 2010 interview with Conan.Got a question for Inside Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone] and e-mail us at [e-mail]

And now, it's time for Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast. Welcome to Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast. I'm Mike Sweeney, and I'm here with Jesse Gaskell. That's right. And we will be talking you to sleep tonight. Yes. If all of your other sleep aids have failed, we're here for you. Right. We're the podcast that brings you all the inside dirt.

Yes. What is this podcast about? What is it? I mean, in a larger sense, it's about our humanity and what binds us as living creatures on this earth. But on a micro sense, it's about the inner workings of the Conan show. And now just, I guess, the Conan orbit. That's all under the umbrella of humanity. Okay. Yes. You know, actually, there was a little Conan update this week. He just did a cameo on Saturday Night Live. He did.

Yeah, on the John Mulaney show. So that was exciting. In the welcoming Mulaney into the Five Timers Club. Which he is in with Tinaina fey and steve martin and right probably some dead people i don't know and ellie gould who's still alive oh yeah so he was in the sketch but um yeah conan hosted once so the joke was he was saying they're like what are you doing here you're not a five-time. Oh, yeah, yeah. And he said, I'm here. I'm here to sign up for Peacock streaming service. Oh, okay.

Laughs, laughs, laughs. I think he was excited to be back in 30 Rock. I'm sure he was. Yeah, it's been a while. And you know, he worked at SNL for three years. Did you talk to him about it? Did he have a great time? I think he had a great time.

I think he was, yes. He had to stay up late for that. He did have to stay up late. And he said the party afterwards went kind of all night. Oh, he got to go to the party. Got to go to the party. That's the most important part. Yeah.

And he just said, you know, he was hoarse from chatting. Yeah. You know, there are all these great people to, I guess, catch up with and talk with all night. So we had a great time. Yeah. Yeah. And he got to wear his leather jacket. Oh,

did he? On TV again. Yes. I didn't notice. He was wearing his. He's always camera ready, I guess. Yeah.

I didn't even notice that. I'd love to imagine that he took a variety of wardrobe options. Sure. And they were all the same jacket. Yes. It's an 18-wheeler carrying leather jackets. Slightly longer. It was like, I have it in 18-inch length.

I have it in 20-inch, 21 inches. The 18-wheeler with leather jackets left 10 days before the show so it could travel over land. Yeah, you don't want to ship those. No. Because they have to be kept at sub-zero temperatures. Yeah, I'm not good at caring for leather. I don't have a lot of leather. I don't think I have any leather.

I don't have used leather products. If you've got tips on caring for leather, leave it in the iTunes reviews. Sure. Oh, also, John Mulaney was great. There were a lot of funny sketches. And he was great. It was nice to see him again. You know, I haven't watched it yet, I have to be honest.

Because I've been working a lot. But also, because I'm in a place where I need a... I'm not allowed to watch it. I need a VPN. Really? Yes, I can't watch almost anything. You need a VPN to watch? Yeah. Really?'t watch almost anything. You need a VPN to watch? Yeah.

Really? Is this a hint as to where you are in some way? Yeah, that's the hint. Okay. Is that I don't have access to all of our sweet American content. Wow. God, where could you be? I know.

And it's super late where you are once again. It is, which is always fun. You finished a whole day of shooting and now this is how you relax. You kick back and relax. I had a whole day of work and then I had to try to find a place to eat dinner. It was like 9.30 p.m. and I panicked. Sometimes it's hard to find a restaurant where you can eat something quickly. Right.

And I ended up at a sports bar and I just ate a fried chicken sandwich. That's what I ate. All right. Well, these are all additional clues as to where you are. Sports bars, you're worried about getting a quick meal at 9.30 at night. Yes. Interesting. I know. Cl at night. Yes. Interesting. I know. Clues are adding up. So it wasn't the worst.

It wasn't the best. You mean your fried chicken meal? My fried chicken, yeah. Oh, okay. It's not a place that specializes in fried chicken. I'll say that. Right. I'm not in Kentucky.

Okay. Who's our guest tonight? We'll say it's night. It feels like a late night. Sure, yes. Vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's our guest tonight? We'll say it's night. It feels like a late night vibe here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So as you know, this season has been a look back at Conan's entire late night run. And we thought, who better to tell the story of that late night run better than journalist Bill Carter?

Mr. Bill Carter. Yes, he's a journalist, an author, and he wrote for the New York Times for over 25 years and currently works as a media analyst for CNN. He wrote a book called The War for Late Night in 2010, which if you haven't read, it's a fast read and it's really interesting. It chronicled all of the Tonight Show drama, and we just thought it would be great to have a real journalist come in and give us perspective on what went down, especially because he had also written a book in 1994 called The Late Shift. And what was really interesting

was that was all about Johnny Carson's retirement from The Tonight Show and who was going to take over for him between David Letterman and Jay Leno. And ultimately NBC chose Leno over Letter him between David Letterman and Jay Leno. And ultimately, NBC chose Leno over Letterman. And then Letterman moved to CBS and began The Late Show. Right. But the whole debacle basically kind of mirrored what ended up happening in 2008.

And you know what? A lot of what happened in 2008, the things that in slow motion created this new drama, the steps were taken to hopefully avoid what happened in 1992. Right. With Jay Leno and Letterman the first time around. Don't do that. Just don't do that. Just don't do that.

And then that was the exact thing that they did. They're like, don't choose one or the other. Try to keep both. And then that was the exact thing that they did. They're like, don't choose one or the other. Try to keep both. And then that was, yeah. Totally backfired. But yeah, the late shift, when that book came out, that was just such a big story back then. It is good to know that background for what we talk about today. Yeah.

So with that said, enjoy Bill Carter. I'm thrilled to do it. I love to talk about Conan. Come on. I started with Conan when he walked into a press conference as a complete unknown, as he said. Yeah, you've really been there almost since before Conan. An early adapter. I was in the room standing next to Lorne Michaels when that happened. What did you think when you saw him?

I thought, he's tall. He's a very red character. And he has a very charming personality. That's what I thought. And I also thought he has almost no chance to make this work.

It couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Because who does that? Who picks a guy who's never actually done a standup act or, you know, had any experience and gives them a late night show. It's like saying, okay, here you go, go to your basement and start a show. I mean, right. But, and above that, I don't think anyone thought anyone could follow David Letterman, anybody. In a way that was smart. I was thinking, well, that that's the way to go, because if you do anybody else, it's going to look like, oh, they're trying to follow Letterman with another, you know,

instead where we don't know what we got with this guy. So let's roll the dice. And and in fact, they had approached people like David Spade and, and he was like, no way, no way I'm doing that. Yeah. I'm not going to succeed, David Letterman, no thanks. So. Yeah, no, I'm sure the no's were coming fast and furious. Yeah, they were. I'm sure to most comedians, it seemed like a suicide mission, you know, it's. Yeah, but, but it's interesting because there's a lot of times that's happened and people will, well, it happened with Carson actually. It was like, oh, nobody can follow Jack Park. Forget it. Forget it. Nobody can do that. And within like two weeks, people were saying, Jack, who, I mean, this guy, Carson is great.

Now it wasn't like Conan was instant oatmeal. Right, right, right. But, you know, except for Carson, you know, starting out, these guys generally don't do gangbusters when they start. Right. You need time to find your footing, and eventually the talented people prove it. With the public, it's always like, wait, who's this? Who's this guy? Now they're feeding me, you know, actually that's why Conan's opening bit on the show was brilliant.

I mean, you know, when he basically was told by everybody, you gotta be as good as ladder men. Right. And, uh, Oh,

that was the very first show, right? The cold open. The very first time we ever saw him on, on the show was him doing that cold open. Right. Which ends with him about to hang himself. Yes. It's him going to his first day of work to on the show was him doing that cold open right which ends with him about to hang himself yes you know it's him going to his first day of work to do the show yeah yeah i think

he's always good at like kind of trying to suss out what's on people's minds and trying to address it yeah that is a good way to immediately connect with people you know sure and conan has played the self-deprecation card brilliantly. Yeah. That's what he does. Yeah. Yeah, it might be not an act. Seems to come naturally. It can't be all an act. It can't all be an act.

It is fascinating that you were there the very first day Conan was introduced. Well, it was just interesting because there was no special reason at that point why I would focus on late night, especially except, you know, Johnny Carson dropped a bomb at an upfront and said he was leaving. And there was that crazy interregnum where people were like, well, surely Letterman's getting the job. Surely. Right. Surely he's getting the job. Yeah. And actually, it turns out he never had a shot at the job because it already made a contract with Jay Leno, which you don't find out really easily if you're a daily news reporter. And I learned in the process of writing books about it is that as a daily news reporter, you get like 10 percent of what's going on.

And then if you report the thing down to the ground, you find out all kinds of other stuff was going on. Right. That the daily people aren't going to hear about. And that certainly was the case there. So because that piqued my interest so much, you know, all of a sudden I was like, well, this late night story has great legs, you know. So you're talking about the original, your big book, The Late Shift, right? Right. And Conan obviously is in that too, because he becomes the guy. At the tail end there.

Yes. He becomes the guy to succeed Dave after all the machinations about them trying to keep Letterman. Right. When did you kind of become aware, oh, this is going to make a great book? This is, I've got a book here. Okay. So I'm, I'm reporting the daily events of what's going on with the fact that they screw Letterman over and, uh, and then they're trying to, they had a year, like eight months or something

left on his contract. So he's still there. He's still at NBC and they're trying to, and they're trying to keep him and they want him to follow Jay. And so I'm reporting that and I'm talking to people in both camps. I'm talking to Leno people and Letterman people. And one of those people, I probably shouldn't say who, said to me, you know, people think this is being covered day to day. And everybody's writing about it. They don't know what's going on. There's a book here. Your books do read.

It really is like all the president's men, you know, it's just that's the idea. That's exactly the idea. Mike, only the stakes are much higher. No, but I mean, I mean, that's the model. It's narrative nonfiction, which you don't you don't write like a newspaper story where you say, according to so and so. Right. Yeah. You just say this happened because people have told you that happened, you know, and you recreate the dialogue this happened because people have told you that happened. And you recreate the dialogue when the two sides will tell you what they said. And so your second book, The War for Late Night, which involved Conan, when did you start to think, I've got a book here?

Like the things are happening the same way they happened before. Oh, it is interesting, Mike, because the answer might have been when they decided to take Jay out at 10 o'clock and try to move him back, because that's when that's a dramatic thing that happened. But really, I've been pushed by publishers a lot after the late shift. I said to my agent, I will write another book when there is another book. Right. And she was like, yeah, but the publishers want you now. And I'm like, I don't have a book.

You'll know it when you see it. I don't want to do a book under false pretense. So it took me, oh, I don't know, eight or ten years before I wrote another book, which was Desperate Networks, it was called. But in the meantime, I had meeting after meeting. And she'd say let this publisher wants to be there and i'd say if they want me to pitch something i don't have right no no no they just want to meet you and i'm like okay for the sake of setting down roots maybe i'll do that but remember i'm not going to pitch anything right we go to the meeting the first

thing the publisher would say so what's your book right and like uh you know but this one when when they decided to try j at 10 o'clock right i said that's a book no matter what happens that's a crazy experiment and and i gotta see how that plays out that moment i remember that moment that's what my clearest memories um was after the show getting called into jeff ross's office and conan was in there and they were you know conan was going to take over the tonight show the following year and they were like yeah they just offered jay the 10 p.m slot and it was stunning news it was not good news let's start in the Yeah, we just want to give a general overview. An overview of the war for late night. What the landscape was like. Right. Okay, so Leno is hosting The Tonight

Show, and he's number one for years, right? Solid number one. Conan is at 1230, growing, getting fantastic reaction, getting on magazine covers. He hosts the Emmy Awards. He kills. He's fantastic. He's a hot property. Other networks want him because that's what happens at the 1230 show. You're playing, you're playing the lounge and you want to go to the main room, right? That's what happens. And that's what happened with Letterman. CBS took Letterman because his contract was coming up, etc. The other networks are aware of Conan and and the Fox network had made a big run at him previously. And at that point, Conan was in his late 30s and he said, I'm going to hang in for a while. I don't know what's happening, but no one thought Jay would ever walk away voluntarily. And to be fair to him, he was not really that old.

I think he was 54, which is not. Yeah. And late night. I mean, you know, that's younger than I think Colbert is now. Yeah. So the situation was here's Conan really wanting to get to tonight show. That's what he wants to. But Jay is there and doing great.

OK, so Jay is you wouldn't great. Okay. So Jay is, you wouldn't take the number one guy out. You wouldn't do that. So they're faced with this situation where if they renewed Jay for another contract in like, I think we're talking about 2004 at this point, right? If they renew Jay for, for his usual contract, three years or whatever it was at that point, they're liable to lose Conan because his contract will come up and he'll say, well, there's no end in sight for Jay. So what are we going to do? And they were under enormous pressure not to duplicate the disaster that happened with Letterman. Yes. And Leno fighting it out. And that's, that was like deep in NBC psyche. Don't let that happen again. Right. And then that's the only thing they were able to do. Well, even though, and I've, I've written this many times,

the basic math does not change. Two does not go into one. There's one show and two guys, right? You can't, you cannot do that. You can't work that out no matter how hard you try, but they tried. So you have to pick a lover. It kind of do. So here they tried what they tried was, okay,

let's renew Jay, but let's give him a five-year renewal and a really extensive renewal, which, which basically shows our endorsement of him. And he's number one. He's got the biggest renewal ever, whatever. So we give him a five-year renewal. At the same time, we guarantee Conan will get the job at the end of those five years. The first thing they do is they go to Conan and they make a deal with Conan. Conan, don't go to another network. You stay here. You will get The Tonight Show.

In five years. Yeah. You just have a five-year waiting period, which for Conan was a big ask, in my opinion, because Conan was as hot as a pistol. Everybody's writing about him and he's doing really well. And they're basically saying, park your career on the side road for five years, and then we'll put you back on the highway that was kind of what they said and normally talent doesn't do that you know right when your career is on fire you jump you gotta move and conan's representatives kind of wanted him to do that but he wanted the tonight show very much like letterman and leno had right so he decides to

take and they make the deal with conan first before they even bring this up with Jay. They don't even tell Jay that they're going to do this thing to him. And and that was unwise because because nothing meant more to Leno than doing this show either. And, you know, to him, when Jeff Zucker finally shows up in his dungeon like room after after The Tonight Show one night to tell him, well, we've made this deal with Conan, we're going to renew you for five more years. We've made this deal with Conan. Jay thinks he's being fired. Right. You know, it's five years. Yeah. But then you're getting fired. But right. That that's in the back of his head and he's like why would you fire me i have done nothing but make money for you but he's such a corporate loyal

soldier he doesn't say much he it just sinks into his soul and burns there yeah it's a long time to be a lame duck right long time yeah yeah and also he had gone through that bruising experience of the whole Carson succession. He had. And at that point he knew that they were courting Letterman to take his job after he'd been on the air for a year in the tonight show. He knew that had happened to him before. So yeah,

he, he was upset and he decided to lay low for a while, but it was clearly festering in him for that period of time he came on the air that night and said you know yes this is the thing and uh i'm gonna i'm gonna have five more years and then we'll give it to conan and that's the way it is so good going conan and we'll see you in five years or whatever he said on the air right it being the good soldier and meanwhile uh behind the scenes uh with his really great producer debbie vickers he is uh you know tearing his heart out over this

that makes him more adamant to beat the crap out of letterman and be number one so we so it will look like a bad very bad decision for nbc So that's what was the spark that set this up, because they had this five-year period where Conan's doing his great show, and he's continuing to do his show, but he's still in the lounge. He hasn't gone up to the main room yet, and Letterman is continuing to kick ass and take ratings. So you get to that period where it's going to be now time for Conan to take over. And now Jay is on the market. Jay will be on the market, right? Because he is going to leave his job at the end of the five years.

Now that they're getting closer to 2009. They're getting closer. So in that last year, in that last year before the transition, he is chased. Now he gets chased. Fox comes after him and he doesn't think he really belongs at Fox, which is correct. But then ABC goes real big. Bob Iger himself turns up at Jay Leno's door with a deal for him to get an 1130 show. Jimmy Kimmel at that point was at 1205 after a half hour nightline. OK, so they have to get Kimmel to agree to go to 1230 if Jay comes at 1130. So Jake starts to court Jimmy Kimmel, which was bizarre because Kimmel had just eviscerated him on the air, usually.

But he does, and he basically tells Kimmel, listen, I won't be doing it that long. You're much younger than me. You know, you go back to 1230. I go to 1130, and we dominate together. And Kimmel basically agrees. He's like, you know, I'm after Nightline now, which is a bad lead in for me. I'll probably be much more solid if the Leno has the show. So against his somewhat his nature, which was that he thought Jay was kind of a hack.

That's what he thought. He decides he's OK with that. So they have a very significant situation that ABC will take Jay Leno and NBC, of course, hears all this and knows this is going on. And they now start to panic because they're like, well, we're going to give the show to Conan, but now Jay is going to be our competition at 1130. Right. You know, and then we have to find a 1230. So we could really be in the soup here.

If this doesn't work out, you know, with Conan, even though as a network that was dedicated to appealing to the demo, Conan was the right play for that because his audience was so much younger. The median age for Conan's audience was so much younger than Letterman and Leno that it made sense for NBC to have him as a host. But they were afraid because they thought Leno will get very big numbers. And The Tonight Show isn't supposed to just win in the demo. It's supposed to be the show. It's supposed to be the franchise. Right. The dominant show. And so that's in their head. And they're sweating this out and they don't

know what to do. And Jeff Zucker goes to Jay with the usual pitches, the same kind of pitches that NBC made to Letterman to try to keep him. They make to Jay, we'll give you primetime specials. We'll give you, first they offered him an eight o'clock half hour show five nights a week. That was their first idea. 8 p.m. And Jay's like, I don't think that's right for me. That's not right for me. And he basically held the cards here

because they were stuck. They didn't want to have to face, they thought they'd lose to Letterman. I mean, to Letterman and Leno at first with Cohen, because they said it's going to be a transition, etc. Will I will be in third place. So then Jeff Zucker, who

I don't know anyone else who's really emphasized this, but the idea of putting Jay at a strip at 10 o'clock was not the first time Zucker thought of that, because in a previous moment when Letterman's contract was coming up, he pitched that to the Letterman people. Oh, come to NBC and I'll give you a 10 o'clock show. He had pitched that previously. How'd that go? Well, obviously both Letterman and Leno had the same reaction, which is like, I don't belong in primetime. I'm a late night guy. And there's something about this kind of show that really belongs in late night, not at 10 o'clock. But when presented

with the possibility, Letterman, I mean, Leno finally starts to say, well, I can stay where I am. I don't have to leave my studio. I can keep the same staff, you know, all the people with NBC contract can stay. He didn't really want to go to another network and start over. He did not want to do that. So he he sort of reluctantly goes along with this. And the situation is now reversed because. Wow. They're like, it's much different this time. Let's get both guys really, really angry and then see what happens. Yeah. Interestingly, because of my connections with all this, I get word that they're giving Jay this 10 o'clock show. Right.

Right. Like we wanted to give you advance notice because we know you're writing a book. I'm about to break this. Yeah. So I called Jeff Ross. The producer, our executive producer. Yeah. Jeff Ross.

And I'm like, do you guys know they're getting a 10 o'clock show? And he's like, we just found out this is, you know, this is a terrible idea or whatever. Yeah. So I had confirmation. I could then I put it up on online. We had entered the digital era. Right. So I broke that. I broke that story. Jay Leno's getting a 10 o'clock show. And the instant reaction sort of across the board was actually, wow, NBC's figured out a way to keep both guys. And I think because Jay had kind of defied the expectations of certain insiders and the smart money in television by beating Letterman, there was a feeling like, well, you shouldn't write him off. You know, anything could happen. This might work. Yeah. Who knows? Might work. It's certainly never been done before. So it was unprecedented. And economically, it was a fantastic idea of a work because five primetime shows, you know, hour long cop shows at 10 o'clock, way more expensive than a five night strip of a late night show. Right. Way, way more expensive. Yeah.

So economically sounds good. Makes sense. And I just knew that from Conan's point of view, when I talked to him about it subsequently, this was just felt like a slap in the face because, you know, he had followed Leno for all those years and he was still going to follow Leno. Yeah. That's the way it was. Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it Leno for all those years and he was still going to follow Leno. Yeah. That's the way it was. Yeah.

I mean, it was, yeah, it was literally just moving everything up an hour. So in a sense, nothing was changing. We've rearranged time. Exactly. So that catches us up, Jesse. Yes. Thank you. Where Bill's like, I have a book.

Read the freaking book. You're right, Mike. The book is, well, what happens now? Right. Read that freaking book. You're right, Mike. The book is, well, what happens now? You know, Jay is getting this crazy experiment and Conan's taking over the Tenacious. What happens? And in my gut, I was like, I don't think it's going to work. Something's going to go wrong here. And that, because I hate to say it, that makes the book better.

If it works, everybody's happy. My theory is you were the mastermind behind all of this because you were getting pressured to write a book. And so you puppeteered it. You moved all these chess pieces. So congratulations to you. Well, I was going to ask, maybe Bill, could you speak a little bit to why you think The Tonight show as a franchise was so important to people i mean why was it worth conan putting other things on hold for and it seems like this was the the precious that everyone was fighting over you know conan himself said you know he grew up was a really young kid watching the tonight show with his dad

and they had this they bonded over it. And there was something about Johnny Carson's Tonight Show that really got into the culture. That was like where show business met to discuss what was going on in the world and in show business. And everybody went there. Everybody was on the show. Nobody could compete with Johnny. He had this unique voice. When he said something was going on in the world with the Vietnam War or whatever, it had real impact. So when I say the franchise, I mean, it was the, it's hard to compare it to something else, but like the New York Yankees or something, the franchise that if you wanted to be in late night, that's the place where you're at the top.

You're at the top if you're on at the night show. And another example of its power is like all the stories of stand-up comics who would make their debut on that show. Yeah. Perfect example. Kill and literally be famous. Blow up. By Monday. They appeared on Friday, like Roseanne.

Famous by Monday. Freddie Prinze is the most famous example. He got a deal like the following Monday for a sitcom. You know, Mike, I did a podcast last year when I did this series for CNN about the history of late night. And one of the things I did was talk to comics who got their first shot on The Tonight Show.

And their stories are amazing because it was so important. It was terrifying. It was terrifying. George Lopez told me he's in his dressing room and his hands froze up. He couldn't move his hands suddenly. Wow. They froze. Another guy told me that he was so scared when he came out, he thought if he didn't do well, the floor would open up and he'd be sucked into oblivion. Sure. Oh, man. Ray Romano said it was like jumping out of an airplane.

You jumped out and you could never go back. You would never, ever be able to go back. Once you did that, it was all on the line. You either made it or you fell to the ground and that was it. That was it. Right. It was high state. It was incredibly high state.

Yeah, you couldn't be like, well, maybe nobody saw it. It was on pretty late. Yeah. No, that was it. Right. It was high state. It was incredibly high state. Yeah. You couldn't be like, well, maybe nobody saw it. It was on pretty late. Yeah. No, that was because you wouldn't be invited back. And once you were invited back. Right. It was over. But if Johnny Carson went like this, which he did.

Give the OK sign. Yeah. If he liked it. And especially if he brought you over. Right. If you came to the couch. If you walked to the couch, you basically had a career. That was it.

Yeah. So that's where Conan was when he made the deal, made it to park his career for five years because it was worth it to him to have a shot at the, at the throne. That was a throne. They called Johnny the King. So the chair behind the desk was the late night throne for sure. Yeah. Like I know Conan didn't want to get like,

he was getting wooed by Fox and all, and, but all those networks wanted him to go on at 11 PM. And yes, there was no, which would be an advantage, but yes. But at the time,

11 PM was considered like it never worked. Right. And it wasn't going to work. And I think that was another big deterrent. Well, to be fair, it started to work for Stewart around that time, but it started to work for Jon Stewart. But going to Fox.

But it was a half hour show and a different format and all that. It was different. Yes. Yeah. Right. But it hadn't worked at Fox and they were the main pursuer. So. No, exactly.

And also there was something to like, you know what? I've had such success here at this network. You know, that kind of loyalty. I think that's another thing, because Conan was very, very loyal, especially to Bob Wright, who was fantastic to him. Yes. Because everybody forgets that Conan really struggled when he started and was very close to being canceled. Yeah. When he started.

And Bob Wright stood up for him. He stuck by him. And he was the head of NBC. So that helped. Loyalty is dismissed a lot in show business. Right. Yeah. But there's still something to it. And, and for, for a guy who's a decent guy and there aren't that many decent guys in show business, but Conan is a decent guy. And, and I think he felt a Bob Wright went to his wedding for heaven's sake.

Right. Right. So, yeah, no, it's, I mean, that is like kind of what the story that unfolds after this. It is kind of like executives forgetting the human aspect almost and like looking at things as widgets. And it's like, well, we still have these two widgets, Jay and Conan. Well, that is kind of what happened. It was kind of like pieces, things kids put together. Legos? Lego pieces. You know, if we put this Lego piece here, we're still making something.

Right. So they said, Jay, here's this 10 o'clock show. Right. And Conan, you're doing the Tonight Show. And then... And Sweeney, you said you knew at that point that that was kind of like a, ugh. Well... That was not a good announcement. Or, you know, the entertainment is supposed to be new and exciting. Yes. And just this wait for a transition, it sounded almost like a, it sounded just like a very corporate decision. Yeah.

Almost antithetical to show this. Like, we're going to phase this person out and phase this one in. Right, right, right. Yeah. So, my son's taking over the practice in five years. Right. taking over the practice in five years and so but then and and yeah the 10 10 p.m wouldn't i very skeptical that that would work okay so i want to tell a little story about that because 10 p.m is announced and uh people wonder what how it's going to work and nbc has this idea

of how to uh promote it at the upfront where they sell advertising season to people. Right. They decide to do a night of a thousand laughs or whatever they called it. Right. And they're going to do a show in New York for the advertisers. Right. Big advertisers, the buyers, to come to the town hall theater. And they're going to have all these NBC associatedassociated comedy people come out and do comedy.

Right. That included, like, Jerry Seinfeld, Conan. Conan delayed going to L.A. to do some planning for his Tonight Show because it was important that he come out. And Leno was going to be the closing act. Right. Leno came to New York and was going to be the closing act, which they timed so he would come out on the stage exactly at 10 p.m.

Oh. So that was going to be part of the shtick. Right. And Conan came out, I think, first, or almost first, because he had a flight to L.A. Mm-hmm. And he got a tremendous laugh because he said, I really wanted to do this because this is the first time I'll ever be on before Leno.

Right. And he got a huge laugh. And he was funny and Seinfeld was funny. And Jimmy Fallon, who had been announced to get Conan's spot, right? Right. At 1230. He was very funny. To take over late night.

So it was great. It was great. We're all sitting there. Everybody's enjoying themselves. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? And then they introduced Jay. And, you know, Jay has a reputation

of being one of the great standups of all time. He is just a guy who's always had an act that plays with broad audiences. And but he's never been especially effective in New York, to be honest. So he's in front of a New York audience. And something that everyone else had done was do material that, some material that was related to what was going on. Something about this plan to put Jay at 10 or introduce Conan. There was always something like that. Deal with the reality of the situation. Why everybody was there. Right, exactly.

But Jay comes out and he starts telling jokes about his wife losing her cat and stuff. You know, he's doing his act, her cat and stuff you know he's doing his act basically yeah he's doing his road act it's like it's a vegas gig kind of like i'll do you and he starts out and he's not doing particularly well he's not getting big laughs you know he's getting polite laughter right and i don't know how long he was supposed to do maybe 20 minutes right but after about five or, he kind of realizes this isn't going great. So he switches to a different file in his brain and he does something about, you know, commercials or I don't know what the next theme was. He's reaching around in his joke bag.

And that doesn't work. And their plan to put him on a 10 is, you see the flaw, because people start looking at their watches. You know, it's getting a little late. Right, right, right. And he gets to his 20-minute mark. And an ABC executive is sitting in the audience, and he's friendly with, I forget which NBC executive, but he texts them. And he says, the first text is, what's wrong with Jay? He's really off, right? And maybe five or 10 minutes later, he sends another text, which says, make it stop. Oh boy. Give him the light. And Jay, who never, he had done an interview with

the press before he did this. We went into his hotel room, my eight of us. And somebody asked him, what do you do if you perform and you start to flop? And he says, you know, after you've been in this a long time, you don't flop anymore. You figure out a way, you just don't flop anymore. Well, he wasn't flopping. He was flopping and he was sweating and it was too long. And he read the room completely wrong, did no material about the fact that he was going to be on 10 o'clock. None, nothing. Yeah. And people start to leave. Oh, boy. They start to get up and leave. And the

theater is an old New York theater, rundown theater. and the chairs squeak when you get up. Oh, my God. So you hear all this, and people are leaving. So it winds up being a PR kind of disaster for them. Yeah. That they set this whole thing up to show Jay off at 10 o'clock, and for the first time in years, he does poorly. He does absolutely poorly.

And the next day, NBC has a meeting and some of the people are really sweating about it. Most of them are like, this isn't going to impact his TV audience at all. It's not going to be an insider upfront crowd, but it's still played like an omen. And I sat there thinking, boy, that was what the worst thing that could have happened to NBC tonight was that. Right. You know, and the last thing I thought would happen. The last thing, I remember Jeff Ross telling me he'd seen Jay some months earlier at some other NBC thing. He said he killed like crazy in the room.

He killed like crazy. I was at that event. Because that was like affiliate managers, you know, guys from around the country. You're at that event, right? And he killed, right? I was at Town Hall that night with Conan. Yeah. We left right away. You left, you didn't on so you found out later that jay had bombed right we well we just heard it we didn't hear the age that he bombed it was just that you know it's kind of rough sledding yeah like you know he bombed i mean let's face it that was a bomb when

people are walking out on you right and you the big shot guy, that's bad. So did you write about that right away? Yeah. Oh, that, of course. I wrote about it that day in the newspaper. Of course I wrote about that. I didn't go into the detail. I didn't know the detail about make it stop and all that.

I didn't know all the stuff that went on. And backstage, what was going on, I didn't know about that. Because there was all kinds of other stuff going on. The sign fell behind backstage and all that. They did this thing and Leno did not do well. I'm not a critic, so I wasn't going to say.

But I did say it got late and people were leaving. I believe I wrote that. Did Jay call you and go, come on? No, he didn't. But I have to say about Jay, Jay called me a lot. He did call me a lot. And there was a period of time where when he was doing well, he called me every day.

Oh, wow. Wow. And he tried monologue jokes on me. Really? Oh, man. Did you ever pitch anything, Bill? Be honest. Never.

I'm not stupid. I don't fool with comics. You don't fool with comics, right? But the only, I should say, the only ones he would tell me were the ones he thought were a little too edgy. Maybe this is too edgy. Right. Like some Michael Jackson pedophilia joke or something, right?

And I said, Jay, there's nothing you can tell me that will offend me. I'm unoffendable. Right. So maybe the wrong Jay, there's nothing you can tell me that will offend me. Right. I'm unoffendable. Right. So maybe the wrong audience for this. Right. And it was difficult because I couldn't then say to him, I'm not offended, but it ain't funny. You're like, you know, you know, so I just give him polite. And it really was pro forma. He just wanted to he just wanted to sort of gossip. Right. Right. Right. A little a little bit about. Oh, man. We had a good we is great. We had a good relationship. I'm not criticizing Jay.

I mean, we had a good relationship. And he did do that for a while. And he'd sort of say, what do you hear about what's going on with Dave? Dave was in his head like a gremlin, you know? He could never get Dave out of his head, you know? And so that was part of it. And so as years went by, he did, he stopped doing that. Yeah. You were like, I don't have time to talk every day. Yeah. I have to write an article before he did the 10 o'clock show. I went out to interview him.

Right. And we went to, we sat on the set and if you remember, he did a bit called 10 at 10, 10 questions at 10 PM. I was one of his segments. Right. Right. So he said, you sit in the chair, I'll do this with you. You know, so he asked me 10 questions and, you know, and I'm like, I don't have interesting stuff that the show, that his people be interested in at all. You know, like who was your toughest interview? You know, but I was like, this isn't good because Jay's not really an interviewer. And the segment felt off to me, even with me in it. But I just had a good relationship with Jay.

And, you know, I could call him and say, is this true? Is this going on? Right. You know, and he would tell me. And I knew that he was, when the 10 o'clock show started to tank, knew how you know painful what the pain he was in for sure yeah from a press perspective how how was it going for conan when the tonight show first premiered the expectations were good yeah that people thought they'd seen him do like so many great things, even if they didn't see his show that much. They'd seen him do the Emmys, like I said, and he had won people over.

Doubters had backed off. Yes, he's a different sort of act, but that's what's good about it. Like that was finally people said, oh, yeah, well, that I like. So there were expectations that he would come out and do a new version of The Tonight Show and it would be fresh and different. So I went out for the first show. I didn't sit in the audience, but I was out there and I talked to him and Jeff. And I remember I watched the show in a bar at the hotel that night. And because it was the first show, people started to watch it and they enjoyed it.

I mean, it was, you know, there was no question they enjoyed it. So I think there was a feeling that this would be fine. I mean, remember, Jay did not come on. question they enjoyed it so i think there was a feeling that this would be fine that would be remember jay did not come on for he jay conan came on before the 10 o'clock thing he already he got i don't know how many months had started couple of months maybe a couple of months yeah of just conan doing the tonight show before just going to do it did 10 but i think it was obvious to me early on that conan in the tonight show in.A. was different from Conan in New York. Right.

There was a somewhat different feel to it. Right. Which is completely logical. Yeah. I mean, L.A. audiences are different. They're just more hepped up. Well, and the space was different. You've talked about that before, Sweeney.

And the space. Yeah. We would go out. The first time we went out there they were taking i think it was studio one they had gutted it and they chalked out on the floor where the seats would be where the desk would be and our first reaction was oh this is a big space and it's like an airplane hangar right and i, one thing for comedy and especially on TV, no viewer cares how big your theater is. That's not impressing anyone. And for comedy, I think the smaller and more

intimate the space on television and at a nightclub, the better that you kind of get that compression. There's no question about that. So that was my first worry. In fact, Mike, every person who I ever talked to who came to Tonight Show in New York for the first time or especially Letterman's old studio for the first time, they would say, God, it's so small. I didn't realize

how small it is. It feels bigger when you watch it on TV. So the smallness of it plays very well. In the room, you feel that. And then on TV, it, so the smallness of it plays very well. Yes. You know, it, it, in the room, you feel that the small, and then on TV, it doesn't really look so small, but also TV is such an intimate medium. And so the smaller, the space you're performing to, I think it allows all the performers to be, to reach that intimacy with the live crowd. and then that translates to television. If you're coming out into a barn where there's 400 people, it's just a different energy. And I think you're going to maybe the tendency, at least initially, is to play bigger, maybe.

Absolutely. How can you not? Yeah. How can you not? Yeah. And it's, yeah, there's no logic to doing it that way, but. I felt the same way.

I felt that, that there was a cavernous feel. Yeah. To the space. Yeah. It not only was hard to do, it was just different from what Conan had been doing. Yes.

So the, so the difference felt immediate. Like, okay, he's still Conan. Right. He's still incredibly funny, but there's something about the atmosphere that's

different right you know but i on the plus side i will say like whenever we travel the show for a week during the the aughts yes the like go to chicago or san francisco the fans that were able to come and see conan live that lived locally that were crazy, so crazily enthusiastic. It was like an elevation from the New York crowds. And it felt that way in LA initially. Yeah. Oh no, the crowds are fantastic. No doubt about it. Yeah, the crowds are great. No, I remember them lining up and all that. It was, yeah, it was great. But there was that feeling like, okay, Conan has to find his footing in this right that's what i thought yeah okay he's he is who he is right and and you know you had you had nbc people saying you got to change right you got to do something different this is the tonight show you got to do something different

yeah how are you going to revolutionize it right well they but they wanted him to do something different and more traditional oh they wanted him to broaden they wanted him to do something different and more traditional. Oh, they wanted him to broaden. They wanted him to broaden his himself. Right. Constantly saying, don't do that crazy string dance crap, you know, or whatever. Right. That was us saying that. Oh, no, I'm joking.

I'm joking. You know what I'm talking about? Right. Yes, of course. They wanted they didn't want his idiosyncrasies so much as they as they wanted more jokes in the monologue you know that do that traditional tonight show thing yeah more jokes about the news ask what's going on in the news right which wasn't conan's forte really he hadn't been doing a hell of a lot of that right so but we we definitely were adding jokes to the monologue as we got close.

So that was... And he got better. He did his own monologue performance definitely improved for sure, for absolute sure. Even before he went, because you guys would go from four jokes to eight to whatever. Right. And he was obviously getting his footing there. Right. But I just felt like, okay, we got to get back into the mode of, okay, he's going to find it. It's going to take a little time for him to find the exact groove he

had before and stop telling him to do something that isn't in his nature. I don't, I thought that was foolish. Well, yes, that advice was, it was kind of broad in general. So I, I mean, it was literally like phrase you just used, like have a broader appeal. And is, I mean, it was literally like phrase you just used, like have a broader appeal. And as I, I mean, our, our mission in our heads was, well, first of all, it's Conan. And so you're, you just don't change how you're funny or how, what kind of stuff you're doing. We came up with new things and, and because we like coming up with new stuff and think that's more creative, but our, our bottom line was, is it funny? Is it making us laugh? And that, I think that that's always kind of the, should be the guiding principle doing well the crowds are enjoying them and we're just going to keep building uh and we thought we thought we had a lot of we thought we had time to build well here's the thing they immediately thought to themselves we got this guy he has a tremendous median age

young viewers etc the rest of late night can't can't compare right and they but they they couldn't resist saying but we wanted to have more viewers than as well he better beat letterman he better beat letterman and viewers too and with jay out of the picture at 11 30 right at least some of his more traditional viewers right said i think i'll watch letterman. Right. Because Conan feels a little young and maybe not my style. So you have this some audience gravitation over to Dave. And Dave starts to get into first place in viewers while Conan's dominating in the demos, which is. The younger viewers. In prime time, that's all NBC ever cared about.

They didn't give a damn if, you know, CSI had 30 million viewers, if they could beat it in the demo. They didn't give a damn if, if, if, you know, CSI had 30 million viewers, if they could beat it in the demo, they didn't care about that. But the tonight show, not quote unquote winning was bothering them. It was bothering them. And they, and you could see, you could sense that that was something they were worried about that somehow it would look like the move wasn't smart because they're not quote unquote winning. You know, and of course, if you're CBS, that's what you promote. Oh, Dave is winning, is winning because he's, he's got more viewers. So I think that was a factor. And then that story, everyone, not everyone, but a lot of, a lot of people just like,

sometimes with the news, it's a zero sum game. So that saying, oh, overall numbers, that person's winning versus like more important numbers that determine money. Money. Exactly. Which is also winning. Yes. But that that's not easy to spoon feed to the public, you know. But I should ask you something, Mike, because I think in Conan's first week, he had a lot of bits that you had taped right right and he did a bit which was hilarious okay fantastic bit where he disguised himself as a person doing a doing a market research oh yeah right that's a great one and the market research was with older viewers

yes and they showed tapes of conan from his old show and asked these older viewers who weren't regular viewers of Conan what they thought of Conan. And you got responses like, I think that guy's mentally ill. It was great. And he was in disguise in the room. He's in disguise. He was totally disguised. As an older, heavy man. Right.

Named Stuart Wexler. And you know what, Mike, it killed. I thought it killed. I thought it was funny. Well, he's like,

he's like, he would be like, someone would say, you were saying, he's like, thank you. You know, I'm not supposed to give my own opinion,

but I have to agree. This guy, there's something wrong with this guy. Yeah. It was, it was hilarious. But Mike, I'm sitting watching it,

thinking to myself, this isn't far off from what's happening you know right because there were some viewers they wish weren't gonna get conan conan right is is different that that's why he's good but you know people are gonna say i'm used to that you know right 20 joke 20 joke monologue and then a very formal comedy bit at the desk right that's what i like you know and then you bring on you know don rickles or something right right right you know you bring on you know that that's what you do and instead conan has, hotter acts and Will Ferrell and people like this. Right. And they're doing wacky stuff and they're doing crazy stuff. Right. And it's like that audience research group who are like, he makes me uncomfortable.

Right. So it's on the back of my head. And of course, I'm thinking book wise at the time. Yeah, I think book wise. I hope this isn't also an omen for for conan that he's done a bit that shows what nbc is complaining about interesting well that i mean to us we're just like this is hilarious it was hilarious no doubt so no doubt you know i we just thought it's as long as we were being funny of course that would win out in the end so i'm not saying you did something wrong i just it just resonated with me that that was yeah sort of what was right what was going on and of course it played into conan's self-deprecation you know like yes yeah yeah yeah look at this guy he's awful he's crazy look at that red hair right right

i mean you know and and that's that was great as a viewer who likes conan i loved it as an executive yeah because they probably were running focus groups and maybe these are leno's viewers yeah those people were leno's viewers that's what i thought right anyway well and you're right i mean it's kind of people first of all don't like change but also just the nature of of why people watched late night at that time. A lot of it was kind of to like ease yourself into bed. You know, it was, this is what I'm going to do right before I fall asleep. And obviously that goes back to the fact that that was when that was tonight show started. It was 90 minutes long. Okay. The last part of the show is so dull. But Letterman changed that, because Letterman was on after Carson, and he was incredibly stimulating.

Right? He was doing just amazing, unbelievable, fresh stuff no one had ever done. So it wasn't like that was something people now would expect at 11.30 that you're not supposed to be stimulated, and Conan wouldn't fit. Right. I just felt like, I just felt like they thought the personality that Conan has, which is,

you know, he's a big, funny kid kind of personality was just not what they were used to. And again, my basic thought was give it time. Yes. Give it time. That was all. When he first came on, he was so unpolished when he first came on at 1230. I'm sure people like, what are they doing giving this show to this guy? You know?

Right. And he'd just say, okay, he, there's a few sparks every night, every night. There'd be a, he wouldn't,

it wouldn't be a great show, but there'd be like two or three things. You're like, wow, that I've not seen. That is funny. And that's what I thought would happen. It would just slowly progress. Right. And the older people would maybe gravitate to Letterman, but

slowly the NBC franchise would take over. Right. NBC, unfortunately, was not doing well in prime time at the time. So he wasn't getting help there either. Right. But I thought all of these things are cyclical. You drop a guy in, you believe in his talent. Yeah. And then it plays out that way. Right. So what happened instead? Yeah. Bill. What happened instead is Jay comes on. Right. OK, so it's three months later, Jay comes on. And even Jeff, Jeff it's three months later. Jay comes on. And even Jeff, Jeff Ross, would say to me, you know, at some point we were like, you know, maybe Jay will be helpful if he hits. He gets some attention early. Right.

And that'll help us. Although Conan always said the weird thing is we have a newscast in between us. That's right. Right. The local news. That's kind of weird. Yeah. But anyway, so Jay comes on and he's almost immediately a disaster.

Almost immediately. It's it's wrong. And it logically I wasn't sure why this would be because he's doing the same show. I mean, right. He had a few new segments, all of which were bad ideas. He didn't have they didn't have good comedy ideas. But his regular stuff, he still did. He still did his headlines. He still did that stuff. Except it didn't feel right. It felt off. And his own performance felt off like it did back in the town hall. There was just something off about it from the start. I'm sure he, on some level, hated doing it. I think you're right. I think on some level, it was like, why am I having to do this? Why am I not on The Tonight Show?

Right, right. Why is this now me being exposed in a way, because he was being exposed in a way, as not a primetime performer? Right. You know? I'm not a primetime performer. And now I'm out here proving it. And I think as people's viewing habits, I really think they're like, well, wait, no, I we can't watch monologue jokes.

I need a procedural. Well, yeah. I mean, you've built people's expectations up for, you know, 70 years. Right. And then say, no, we're going to we're going to absolutely throw this. Right. You know, if Jay had been on once a week, right, that would have been fine. I think that would have been fine. But he's on every night. Every night you got to watch that. And you're already saying, oh, no, this is what I do until 1130. And then I watch a late night show.

Exactly. Yes. The chemistry was off. The chemistry was just wrong. Right. And I don't think Letterman could have done it either. I mean, even when they were going to hire, I think it would have been awkward as heck for him.

And he knew it. He knew it would be awkward. In a way, it was kind of like a variety show somewhat. Of course. And that template had died on the vine, I feel like, 15 years, but like by the early 80s. If you don't have Charo, there's no point. It had died on the

vine it had died on the vine 50 to 20 years earlier and now they were putting it on every night yeah so right really really a bad idea but it's funny because i i kept saying but here's nbc saying we can't allow the same disaster to happen yeah so we have to come up with something else and they dug in deep to try to figure it out. When you say same disaster, you're referring back to, again, the whole Carson. The whole succession of Carson. Exactly. That got in the DNA at NBC.

Right. Don't do that again. Right, right, right. Just don't, don't, don't do that again. They had two big stars there. Right. With Letterman and Leno, and they created this hostility and friction, and they had two great franchises. It was so bad for their corporate

strategy, et cetera. I just think it infected the place. Whatever we do, do not let that happen again. But there's a certain syphilis thing to this thing to this yeah we're gonna get it up the hill this time yeah and this time it won't fall down on us but it is going to anyway or when you're telling yourself don't bring up that one thing you know in in a meeting and then that's the only thing you could talk about yeah it'll also be pointed out that the news is coming on after jay and there's nothing more important to late to the local television station. At least then, I don't know what's going on with local TV now, but then they're late night news. That's where they make all their money, all their money. So here's Jay five nights a week with a crappy lead in to the late night news. And he,

and if you'd watched Jay's show and you didn't really particularly like it, why would you say now watch another one of those? Right. Right. Yes. I mean, it really was a mess. And again, I'm not saying I could have come up with a better strategy because I don't think there is one. Right. There isn't one. Clearly the hills, the ball's going to roll down. There's no other strategy. Right. But this one set up both guys to fail. Yeah. It was what it did. It set them up both to fail because the affiliates immediately start saying, you've got to change this. You can't have, we can't have five nights a week of this terrible lead in. It's killing us. It's killing us. Right. And they're also saying we're losing

a little at 1132 when Jay was doing better. So we were getting hit in both sides and they are in revolt. One of the things that I really covered in the book was the station lineup of NBC was pressing them to make a change. All the local affiliates. They were like, do something. You're killing us. Do something. You can't. You're killing us. Yeah. We're getting hit on both sides because, you know, the big Leno audience would tune in a little. Or even if they hadn't seen the news, they might tune in a little early. So they had some benefit and they were getting nothing but loss out of it. Right.

And they made a lot of noise. They made a lot of noise. Particularly because NBC couldn't come back to them and say, yeah, well, we got Seinfeld. No, Seinfeld wasn't on the air anymore. NBC was not strong. They weren't able to yeah, well, we got Seinfeld. No, Seinfeld wasn't on the air anymore. Right. NBC was not strong. They weren't able to say, you can't abandon us. Right. You know, we have all these things. You're like, instead, these affiliates were saying, you know what?

We're going to take Leno off and we're going to put on, you know, an hour long of a show we bought, like Law and Order. Right. Because we get all the ad revenue from that. Or move our news up earlier. We'll move our news up earlier. Yeah. Yeah. We'll put in a movie right we'll do news and then we'll do a two-hour movie and we'll knock out the tonight show too i mean all of that was being thrown up in the air

at nbc yeah it just kept getting ratcheted up and uh and it yeah it really was becoming like animals thrown in a sack and then thrown in the river it was was, you know, there's just no, I don't think the executives saw, like their bottom line was, how do we still keep these two guys? Which at this point, it was just absurd. It was. Now it was an absurdity. It was time to make a call. Right.

If you think Conan is the future, that's your call, right? Right. That's what you decided five years ago. Right. Conan is a future. Right. Jay is coming at some point to his sell-by date, right? So try to extend it, but it's not working and it's time to go. However, I should point one thing out because Jay was so reluctant to take this show and had the leverage of a potential ABC show. He made a deal that no one I know of has ever made in the history

of television. You know what a pay or play deal is, right? Can you explain what that is? Tell us just for the audience and me. Okay. So a pay or play deal is and me, I make a deal to be, let's say you're, you're a late night host for a year. Okay. And after three months, you fire me. Okay. Right. But you got to pay me. You got to pay me off because you've made a year. Okay. And after three months you fire me. Okay. Right. But you got to pay me, you got to pay me off because you've made a deal. You made a contract, you got to pay me, right? But you don't have to play the show anymore because it's failing. So that's pay or play. Or play. I got it. Jay got a deal, pay and play. Okay. Oh, his deal said, no, you can't take me off. Oh, you have to keep me on. Oh, that is As far as I know, I've never ever heard of such a deal.

It's just an ironclad contract. Exactly. I would think even the performer wouldn't want that. Like, if no one else wants you around. You're exactly right, Mike. And that's what Jay thought. That, you know, all I'm getting is pilloried for doing this. I can't just stay on.

Pilloried for the 10 p.m. show. Yes, he's getting tomatoes from everybody, right? Right. His lawyer, looking at this, says, you know what, Jay, they can't just pay you off. They can't just pay you off because they've made this deal. So you have to get a new compensation of extraordinary amounts. Wow. Right? Because he could literally say you

can't take me off you you made a deal you can't so now they're faced with a gargantuan payout if that's what they're going to force and for jay that made some you know i guess some he he all he wanted was out at that point. He knew it was over. And he thought, give me a deal to let me out, and I'll make a deal somewhere else for late night. That's precisely what he wanted. And NBC's still in a position like, well, we don't want that. So crazy, absolutely crazy situation. And they're like, well, what else can we do?

And this is where we get to the moment where they decide we'll give jay a half hour show at 11 30 and we'll move conan not to 12 but to 1205 remember because the late night news goes to 11 35 so it'll be 1205 and jimmy Fallon will be on, you know, with the, the drunks in the coming out of the boat. He would be on at one 30, one 35. Yeah. Sounds like win-win to me. He was new enough.

Jimmy was new enough that he was like, whatever. I just, I just want to stay on. Right. So they didn't have to worry about him. They got him and Lorne Michaels to agree because on Michaels was producing the show. Right. Then they go to Jay and they say,

and Jay is anticipating this meeting where they're going to say, you're canceled. Right. Right. The show we're getting, we're getting rid of this show. Yeah. And when they say,

but we're going to put you on for half an hour, he perks up. Wait, wait, wait. Am I, I'm getting the tonight show back. Right? No, it's not the tonight show it's gonna be your show jay leno show but it's at 11 30 and debbie vickers is produced like

what is it what is that show what do we do yeah well you do a monologue a comedy bit and you have one guest god that's the show and his initial feeling is, Jay was all in. He was like, okay, you know, let's go. But he does say, what about Conan? Right. And they're like, well, we're going to have Conan move to 1205. Don't worry about Conan. Piece of cake.

Yeah. And well, for him, it's like, well, okay, Conan keeps the Tonight Show. Right. That's great for him. And I get out of this mess. So he's in. He's in. He jumps in.

He's all in. And again, now they've told something, set it up with Jay and have not said anything to Conan. Right. And then that set up the incredibly famous meeting, which I got enough people in that room. I could really document this meeting of them calling, uh, there's two NBC executives and they called, um, they called Conan in and Jeff Ross in and said,

okay, here, here's the plan. Uh, we're going to bring Jay back to 1135 and you'll go to 1205, but you'll have the tonight show. You'll have the tonight show. In name only.

You still have the t-shirts that say the tonight show you'll have the tonight show in name only you still have the t-shirts that say the tonight show that's where conan uttered the immoral words what does this guy have on you what does jay have on you right yeah what does jay have on you i remember after that meeting i i was at my desk this was in the morning and um I got a call at my desk I'm like hello and it's Conan he goes look out your window and I looked out the window and it was down below it was Conan and Jeff out down on the the sidewalk next to the studio and and he's like um come on down we'd like to chat with you and so I went downstairs I think they were just like, you know what? Who knows? Maybe that building's bugged.

Who knows? Building's bugged. I mean, not really, but it was just like, they're like. Yeah, we need to talk freely. Maybe like, I think they were, I don't think Conan was in a rush. We don't want this in Bill Carter's book. Get off NBC property immediately. Maybe Conan wasn't in a rush to run back into the building and start the workday. So I went outside and they just told me what happened. And I, I just, I think I was laughing

at the insanity. It just, I didn't think anything could get more insane than the 10 PM 1130 set up. And now I was just like, okay, they're're there i've never lost their mind it's like origami and now they're folding it down and do it they keep folding it into tinier little origami and now it's just like a little ball of paper yeah i was like well wow okay and you know the initial thing was just not discussing it but just kind of let that sit in your mind and let it marinate and figure out what we'll do next. Yeah, well, and it took Conan a little bit of time to see what he wanted to do. He didn't make a precipitous decision. He usually, like something big, he'll let things marinate.

And I think he believes he'll come to the right decision usually you know for this to how to go well so so he hires this kick-ass lawyer right and and they have this powwow and everybody strategizes what to do and uh conan is pretty adamant about it and he basically says he's gonna write a manifest manifesto saying what he wants to say. I think he kind of ad-libbed the manifesto in the meeting with the lawyer and his, and they were like, oh, that's, that's how you feel. I think the attorney, Ms. Glazer was like, you know what, why don't you go away and write up how you feel? And, and maybe there's yep and so he worked on it you know all weekend and uh came up with a manifesto everybody in the room was like you can't do that you can't

do that but she was like no right let's let him do it let's hear let's hear what it is let's let him do it right yeah and was this something that he would say on the air and he had to run it by everybody you know he put it out he didn't read it on the air it was a written statement yeah it was uh to people of the earth right yeah he wrote to the people of the earth put it out there and uh just about how you know he always loved the tonight show and and was right you know excited to be hosting it and and very notably yes he did not quit right he did He did not say, and I'm quitting. Well, that would have been. He did not do that.

That would have been a legal situation. A very poor decision legally. Yeah, then you don't get unemployment. Right, exactly. They had to deal with his contract and deal with his situation. He wasn't giving them the easy out of quitting. Right. He was saying, this is unacceptable to me. That's what he was basically saying. And so, you know, the statement, he got it just the way he wanted it and went out at 12 noon

and kind of everybody picked it up. When did you, what was your relationship to this story at this time? Well, it was, it was a little weird because, you know, they have a press tour that takes place in January. For TV critics? And it was going on at this time, crazily. Okay. So I was in L.A. getting, you know, updates constantly. And I'm talking to Gavin Pallone, his manager. Conan's manager.

And Jeff and everybody. And I'm talking to NBC. I'm talking to Jeff Gaspin, whose idea was this crazy new configuration. Jeff Gaspin was NBC. Exactly. And it's almost minute by minute stuff is happening and I'm filing like crazy. I'd never left my hotel. Uh, so you're getting constant updates on this almost in real time. Yeah, basically, basically. Basically. And of course, I know I'm being massaged by two sides, you know?

Right. Yes. And I know everybody. And I know, you know, what kind of guy Gavin is and what he tries to do. And Jeff, who I trust totally, and I know he's going to be honest with me. And a couple of the NBC people I knew well enough to say, Mark Raboff was a guy I dealt with who was very straight with me. He was their head of business affairs. And they were all trying to say, well, we think it'll work, NBC. We think it'll work.

We think it'll work. And I'm hearing from Gavin, we're going to blow the building up. We're going to blow the place apart. You know, basically it was sort of those two things. And then the manifesto comes out and I'm like, well, I mean, this is, uh, basically, uh, you know, Martin Luther, uh, thing to the, to the church door or whatever. And there's no going back from that. So, right. I think Jeff Ross famously was just like, all right,

just think about it one more time before we hit the send button. Exactly. That's in the book, him standing up and saying, remember what you're doing. You blow this up, it's blown up. And Conan walked out of the room saying, blow it up. That was his word, blow it up. And that's what happened. It blows up. But uniquely, again, the same thing with Letterman in a way he's on the air he's off the air right he's on the air they're negotiating to pay him off and have him leave and he's on the air for i don't two weeks was it mike or something like that another two weeks just having a blast kicking the hell out of nbc using that budget right we were so focused and we had such a big piece of meat to dig into comedically.

It all just gushed out. And yeah, he was... And I think Conan loves having kind of an adversary to play against comedically. And he loves to go against authority comedically. And so this was, well, the ultimate... The man. Set up for that this was, well, the ultimate. The man. Set up for that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was great television. And interestingly, it was great television elsewhere because Letterman was going crazy. Letterman and Kimmel. And Kimmel was going crazy with it. Yeah. You know, and Dave comes out and says, you know, if they take your show away, you know what you do? You quit. You don't hang around in the lobby and say, I'll, if they take your show away, you know what you do? You quit. You don't hang around in the lobby and say, I'll be up down here in the lobby. Come and pick me up.

It was just amazing. Those two weeks of television were just amazing. But I have to say, I'm watching it and I'm laughing because Conan is fantastic, but I'm hurting for him too. You know, I was like, this is a guy whose dream has just been exploded. Right. At the end of this, there's going to be a crash. I just felt like it, it was, we can, we can have our fun while we're on the air, but it was a bad thing to do to a human being. And that that's my feeling. And, and a talented human being can then create some laughs out of it. Right. But it doesn't stop being a bad thing.

Yeah. Those last two weeks, yeah, it was amazing TV. And the final episode, you know, his final statement at the end of the show was... Yeah, I remember that. I mean, because I wasn't watching everything. I mean, all of this, I'm honestly learning about from you, Bill, because I wasn't as involved in, I didn't write for Conan yet. So I just, as a consumer, I didn't, wasn't aware of all the ins and outs of the corporate decision-making, but I definitely

watched that, that final episode. And that was really, I mean, had an impact on people my age. It was like everyone was quoting Conan's final speech and it was getting memed out and, you know, it was all over Twitter. And so that was a really, I think kind of the beginning of, of Conan's social media presence too. Yes. Yeah. Yes. He, he started his Twitter account a week or two after that last episode. No, people still young. Yeah. People. Yeah. Jesse, your age mentioned that last show and that speech a lot where.

Yeah. People were getting tattoos of it. It was crazy. Just about don't be cynical. You know, being cynical. Don't be cynical. One of the worst traits you can give into. Right.

Yeah. So, but you know what? After that, I forget it came up with the idea to do a tour and because he wasn't allowed on tv for nine months right as part of the contract yes as part of the contract so then someone had the idea it would go on tour and that's became the you know legally prohibited from being on television tour he just threw himself right into that and we started writing material for it and we knew it, we're out on this 42 city tour. So that was an amazing experience. Bill, I think you went to the one in la and the one in new york and i'd always see you and i'd be like uh that he's the one who's caused all this i know it and now he's right i stirred the pot but i want to say i want to say yeah before the tour i interviewed conan for the book right and

he was generous as always and jeff had said to me well you know you probably need him for several times so why don't you do like an hour and 90 minutes the first time? And I'm like, OK, whatever, whatever he wants. So I went over to his house and I hadn't seen him personally since he left the air. And he looked kind of haggard. He had grown his beard. He had gotten really thin, really, really thin. And he was a raw wound, to be honest, initially in that interview. So much so that the first, I'd say, a half hour, 45 minutes,

I just was like, I'm not using any of this because he's just too viscerally upset about what happened to him. And it was understandable. I'm like, this is, I know he doesn't want me to portray this. This isn't really him. This is. It's like him processing something that just happened. Yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I said, I have to somehow switch this up. And I, so I just started to ask him about gardening, just how he sort of knew he was a funny person as a kid. i because i knew i would do some biographical stuff and you know we started to talk about him discovering this when he got to harvard you know and right you know going on stage for the first time and feeling this rush when somebody laughed at him you know like right and then that opened him up like that made him you know feel like oh yeah this is a good

thing to talk about you know so so i was there i'd say four or five hours oh my god you know but that's you know what that sounds really healing like you helped kind of well i think that was important to get have them yeah get in touch yeah we worked through all that and but then he got you know very specific we had very specific about all the details that all things went on, which is what, what we wanted and all that. But you know, that, that raw emotion was not, I mean, I'm, I'm sure someone would say, oh, you should have portrayed that. But I'm like, no, I don't think that's what you do. You don't take advantage of that when, when a guy's in that kind of frame of mind. And then I saw him in Eugene, and he was tremendous. Like, you know, he was on fire again as a performer.

And I just felt that was, you know, gratifying to think he could come back like that. He was doing his thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it was a damaging thing to do to a talented guy., you know, he had to, he had to dig something incredible. I just don't think this computed like, and also the, we were all in shock that we were only given seven months because all the precedent was there was an understanding you get, you need time to grow and to. Yes. And I think we all felt the same thing would happen that happened at 1230. You know, there would be a period where it was rocky. It was not exactly what you were going to do, even though there were moments of brilliance, which is exactly what happened before. Right. And then people would start to settle in and there'd be something else that Conan did where people say, wow, look at that. And all of a sudden it would be like and his audience, which was the younger audience, would fill in all these empty spots.

Right. And you'd be a year, 18 months in. And all of a sudden people are saying, wow, Conan, Conan's really hitting his stride. Wow. Right. You can't miss Conan. You got to watch that show that I mean, that would have almost inevitably occurred. Right. If they could have had the patience to take that but and i do think this is true the network was not totally free they had this revolt happening with these affiliates it was a very right you know it was a really bad situation and it was obviously exacerbated by the j thing at 10 o'clock. If that would not have happened, they would have had no option but to say, let's give it time.

Conan, play out. Let's just give it time. Let's let it play out. But they had a disaster they had to solve. And, you know, I think it's easy to say, well, the solution they came up with was designed to get rid of Conan. And I don't think so. I don't think they meant it that way. They were just throwing spaghetti against the wall. Right. Yeah. And they were hoping,

they were hoping Conan would say, okay, it's bad, but I can tolerate this for another year or two and then he'll go. Then he'll go. Right. And they presented it that way. And they presented it that way to Jeff Ross.

And Jeff said to NBC, get out of here with that BS. They're going to have to carry Jay out, toes up. Right. He's not going to walk out of this job. Right, of course. We now know They're going to have to carry Jay out, toes up. Right. He's not going to walk out of this job. Right. Of course. We now know that for sure. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. No, I, it's almost like Conan had to be in that situation. Someone had to just go, this is all insane. It's gotten so insane. Yeah. It's like a bad breakup. I have to speak up about it. Yeah. The other person just acts so badly that you're

like, you know what? I'll just break up with myself then. No, I think that's why the public reaction was so overwhelming because it had just gotten to this point of insanity where it's like, you know, okay, Conan's finally going, okay, this is crazy and has to change dramatically. What I was going to say is, of course, I'm writing a book with more than one character, so I'm talking to Leno the whole time, right? Yes. Right. You know, his point was,

why did they make this move on me to begin with? Right. I was winning. Why did they make this move? And it was a fair point. Absolutely. Yeah, why am I being punished for doing what they asked? Right.

Succeeding. He kept saying, whoever in the history of television has taken the number one guy off the air. Right. For no reason. You know, that was a completely understandable situation, point of view.

And then, of course, the thing he, part of the reason he kind of went along with it was he didn't want to now be blamed as he was blamed for denying Letterman. Let's face it. Letterman had been a friend of his way, way different from Conan. They started in comedy together and,

and he owed Dave, his career was in the dumper because he was not a favorite of Carson. Couldn't get on the show. And Dave put him on that 1230 show all the time. Right. And gave, gave him a profile. So he owed Dave his career, honest the time. Right. And gave him a profile. So he owed Dave his career, honest to God.

Right. He owed him his career. On television. On television. Yeah. So that's why he was constantly portrayed as Brutus or somebody, you know, a guy who stabbed someone in the back. Right.

You know, he would open to me and say, I don't, I just don't want that to happen again. I can't, I don't want that to happen again. And damn, if it didn't happen again. And worse. It was worse the second time. Because you had basically people saying, the guy had the job and he took his job away. Right.

Essentially. And I think he was also damaged by the process. He was damaged by this process. But, of course, he would constantly make the point again, fair point that when he finally got to the night show again, he went back to number one. He did get it back to number one. So, you know, that was what he lived for. Now, the fact remains, and I think this was also predictable, is that, you know, people don't talk about Jay Leno's Tonight Show. people don't talk about Jay Leno's

Tonight Show. They don't talk about what he did with the Tonight Show. He was a very effective host who did the job perfectly fine, but he didn't add to Late Night, didn't make it fresh and new. And we did this documentary about the history of Late Night, and you just didn't hear people saying, well, you know, you couldn't miss Jay Leno's tonight or whatever. Whereas people like Letterman and Conan constantly were referred to as the innovators, the people who young people in college couldn't miss. They had to watch it because he was doing things they didn't believe anybody had ever done before. And in the end, that's that's kind of your legacy. The ratings are not really a legacy.

The ratings are financially important for the corporation, but they're not particularly important for your career. Right. Except you make a lot of money. Yeah, that's well put. wrapped up his tbs show all these you know like seth rogan and jack and jack black and all these other will ferrell all these other really great comics bill hader they all came out and said you know what we grew up watching you yes it was like a touchstone for us comedy wise and i never even thought about all that and it was i i do think that is like such a great reward for, for, and also a great affirmation as to what kind of work you, you'd been doing all that time. Right. He was their guy. And the next generation of people like that, Conan was their guy. And that is a great thing to live on when you're in a new stage of your career, whatever.

Or even toward the end of your career when you're not active anymore. But when you're in it, you want to win it. It certainly killed Letterman that he was losing to Leno. It killed him. He didn't like it at all. Yeah. He hated it. But he said in hindsight, right, that he's like, why did I, why was I obsessed with that? Well, yeah. Now, looking back, all the obsession with airtimes and ratings, it doesn't hold up.

It's all over now. That's all gone. It all seems so antiquated. It is. It's antiquated. It's crazy. But damn, it was fun when it was going on oh my god it really like in hindsight now it seems like someone constructed this small tight little world

and then you put you put these players in it yeah they had to fight their way out out of this box yes it was like a video game yes it was an early video game and try to survive, try not to get killed. Yes. And I also think another part of the early, you know, this whole five-year plan and what's going on. I mean, Jeff Zucker, who was the head of NBC was like such a salesman that I think, I feel like he was probably always massaging everyone going, it's going to be great. It's all going to work out. Yeah, he was. Hey, which is what you do. I mean, that was good. Now it's Jay at 10 and Conan at 1130. That's when you're a corporate guy, not a comedian. That's what you do. Right. You do that sort of thing. And, and we talked to Jeff in this, in a late night documentary and all credit to him for, for doing it. I mean, because he took a lot of brickbats, you know, from various sides.

But he said, and it's certainly true, he said, what is absolutely true is he, despite all the mess at the end, he had five years with Conan at 1230 and Jay at 1130, absolutely kicking ass and making a fortune for that network. Yeah, that was kicking a can down the road. You know what I mean? But well, except his point was he would have lost Conan. Right. He would have lost Conan five years earlier if he hadn't done that. And yes, that's true.

It just was, as I said, it just pushed the problem to the end. It pushed the problem to the end. Yeah. Because I don't care who you are. It pushed the problem to the end. Yeah. Because I don't care who you are. You cannot make two go into one. It does. It's going to fail every time. Yeah.

Right. I can't wait for them to try it again in 10 years. Well, but that's the thing. It won't happen again because nobody cares what time anything's on. Yeah, that's true. The other thing is, you know, I mean, there are too many late night shows. Let's face it. Yes. Right. It's just too many. So how do you stand out and how do you, you know, I mean, they're, they're still good. Many of them are very good. I, I, I don't think you can

fault the talent. The talent is terrific. But Bill, what do you think now? Because there's streaming and streaming's growing and everyone's saying streaming is the future, but people are saying, Oh, topical talk shows don't work on streaming. People don't. I agree with that. Meanwhile, broadcast is keeps shrinking.

So is it going to go back to like just very few late night shows? That's what I think. Yes. That's what I think, Mike. Yeah. If you had two guys in late night or a guy and a woman would be better. Or both women.

Yes. I'm just trying to get laid. I don't want to be prejudiced to anybody. But two or three shows, they'd still get traction, I think, because at the end of the day, you still may say, I want to hear what Colbert says about this. There's still an audience for some of that. Yeah. And if they weren't diffused all over the place, you might concentrate enough. Yeah.

Now, I may be crazy. I may be wrong because once streaming completely takes over and you have a generation that likes to play games or whatever, you know, they may not even have the TV on. So, you know, whether or not they know there's going to be a show at 1130 is open to question. But I've always thought that the format is incredibly facile. I mean, Steve Allen started this thing in 1954, for God's sake, right? It worked because if you have a very talented person, it's a it's a fairly easy thing to do. I mean, it's hard to write good material, you know, from you guys.

But but if you have a funny person, if you have a funny host and you bring on some people, other people want to see. That's it. That's all you have to really do. You don't have to do a heck of a lot more than that. Right. And it doesn't cost a lot. One of the emphasis I made in the late shift was Steve Allen's first producer was debate. His name is Jules Green. And he said, you know, we can't have a thing where we got to pay Frank Sinatra, you know, 10 grand. Come on. We got to pay. So. So our rule is everybody gets minimum. Right. I don't care who it is. You know, it could be some author you never heard of or some juggler, or it can be Frank Sinatra.

I think it was $200 at the time. Right. And that made all the difference because they didn't have to compete. I mean, imagine if when Letterman and Letterman were going crazy, people would say, well, I'll pay you this. I'll pay Will Ferrell twice that amount. Right. So it set up a system where those costs were fixed. You had to have a staff.

You had to have a host. You had five days of advertising. Big, a lot of time, a lot of money could come in. It could work very, very well. And it did. I mean, when Carson was on top, he was making, oh, way over $100 million in profit for NBC. Wow. Just that show so wow yeah

and all that cross promotion that they're doing with other you know getting celebrities from other shows absolutely yeah it makes they want to promote their movies and they want it there's something about the format that makes sense yes right but i but mike is right it's streaming how do you do that when you can watch the thing three weeks later? Three weeks later, the movie's out of the theaters. Right. Yeah. And especially now that all the celebrities are going on every single show, so you're seeing the same person kind of tell the same version of different stories.

Same anecdotes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, we've had a nice long chat, haven't we? We have. Thank you, Bill. This was fantastic.

Bill, we can't thank you enough. It was great. I enjoyed it. And I hope they still go and read, we can't thank you enough. It was great. I enjoyed it. And I hope they still go and read, you know, both of your books about late night. They should. Here it is, folks. Yes. Hold it up.

There it is. There it is. The War for Late Night. If you liked the stories we were telling today, there's more in here. Yes. Oh, my God. I never read it when it came out because I was like, no. It's too close.

You're in it, Sweeney. It's too close. And I, yeah, I'm reading it when it came out because I was like, no. It's too close. You're in it, sweetie. It's too close. And I'm reading it now and I was like, wow, it's a fantastic read. It is. It's really. Thank you. It is so tightly woven and so dramatic. I feel like you're there.

I can't put it down. Yeah. That's my goal. And I love all the perspectives. You get the full picture of everyone involved. It's, it's really compelling and it is really written like a great drama. Thanks.

That was, that was my goal. And, uh, you did it. I've had a blast. I've enjoyed it. I had a blast.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Bill. And thanks for, for doing the heavy lifting for us. Anytime. Thank you, Bill, for joining us. Yes. Thank you, Bill, for joining us.

Yes, thank you. We actually recorded for two hours with Bill, but we cut it down to only the very best. Yeah. 112 minutes. Exactly. And then we started talking about antiquing and we really went off track, so

you got the best of the best. And hey, if you like our show, and I hope you do, you can support us by rating Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast on iTunes and leaving us a review. Don't be shy. It could even just be an emoji. Just leave one skull emoji. No, two skull emojis. And we'll know that that means you liked it. You know what? Any emoji you leave, we will interpret as you really love us. As positive, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Eggplants, frowning, it doesn't matter.

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But you know what? We love you anyway. Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast, is hosted by Mike Sweeney and me, Jessi Gaskell. Produced by Sean Doherty. Our production coordinator is Lisa Byrne. Executive produced by Joanna Solotaroff, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. Engineered and mixed by Will Becton. Our talent bookers are Gina Batista and Paula Davis. Thanks to Jimmy Vivino for our theme music and interstitials. You can rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts.

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