Inside Conan: An Important Hollywood Podcast - Sona Movsesian & Rodman Flender Revisit the Prohibited Tour

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

Director Rodman Flender and Sona Movsesian join writers Mike Sweeney and Jessie Gaskell to discuss their favorite memories from the Legally Prohibited from Being Funny on Television Tour, why Rodman was so torn filming his "Conan O'Brien Can't Stop" documentary, their stressful Bonnaroo experience, and why you should always consult the tour manager's binder.Got a question for Inside Conan? Call our voicemail: [phone] and e-mail us at [e-mail]

And now it's time for Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast. Welcome back to Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast. I'm Mike Sweeney and you are Jesse Gaskell. That's right. After all these years. Sometimes I'm William. I'm William Sweeney for documents. That's right. I got an email from you recently and I was like, who is that? Yeah. You never know what alias I'll use. Sometimes my confirmation name, Richard. But anyway. So many common first names in your name. I do, for no good reason. I'll tell you, this podcast has a good reason for existing. We are

covering... Does any podcast have a good reason for existing? No, no. And yet... That's the thing. I've really come around on yeah on our worth because really i mean in which way none of this means anything no were you searching for meaning early on hoping i had imposter syndrome sure in the podcast world right so we're going through the catalog of Conan's late night career and he's not currently on the air, yet we're a behind the scenes podcast about his late night show. Do we have a right to exist? Right.

It sounds like farm subsidies to not grow crops. Like, what the hell? Yeah, exactly. It sounds like a sham. Yes. But then I found out there's 3 million different podcasts on Spotify, and that kind of relaxed me. Is that true? 3 million.

3 million. Yeah. Come on, of course. We got to be at least in the top. We're in the top. 2 million. 2 million. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. There are a lot of, I think there's some lesser podcasts about the Jersey Devils hockey team that are below us. And that made my imposter. I have imposter syndrome in all aspects of my life. I'm excited. You seem to only have one podcast. That's great.

No, that's just the latest iteration. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, but it does. I mean, there's not like a finite amount of space out there at this point. God, no.

In the podcast verse. It's crazy. I wonder what's gonna replace it. I wonder what the next big thing will be after podcasts. I don't know. I mean, it'll probably go back because podcast was radio. Right.

And so is it just gonna be cable TV again? Or even before, it'll just be four channels yeah yeah i would love that white i'm ready for it oh man i'm really ready for that oh my god rabbit ears yeah on top of a tv i just want to see what's on i don't want to i'm tired of having so many choices yeah i don't want to have choice. I want TV to mostly be terrible, and I want to have to watch commercials. Yes. I love commercials. Otherwise, I mean, if you go back and look at old archived TV shows that still have the commercials, the commercials are always the best part. They are.

Oh, I know. That's the best. Yeah. Yeah. And there's such time capsules you know and those are the things you remember about your childhood too i mean right plus you have an excuse not to cease like oh i missed it like now you can't say you missed anything that's true it's awful i know if a friend does something or they're on it's you have you don't have any plausible

deniability yeah no well i. Well, I've been gone. I'm still gone. Still gone. Yeah. Shooting a movie. I'm gone shooting a movie and it's still being shot. Wow. Because movies are so long.

Have they used you as an extra in the movie yet or anything like that? No, they haven't. But I almost was accidentally in a shot because. I would have loved that. I know. But we were filming on the street and there were these little food carts. Yeah. And the food carts were actually selling real food or not selling, but that was our, that was like our craft services that night. And so I'd been waiting in line for a while

to get this delicious treat that was coming. Yes, from the food cart. And I didn't hear when they started to say action. You were so focused. I was so focused. On your treat. On my treat. And I had been waiting in line and I was finally at the front and he was making it for me.

And so as the actors were walking towards me, it occurred to me that this was a real take. And all the other people there were extras. Oh, my God. But I had like headphones around my neck and stuff. It looked very obvious. So I hid behind a tree. First of all, I was like, I'm going to suck it in because it wasn't that big of a tree. And I had to inch around it as they were walking past

so that I was staying, you know, 180 degrees away from them. What a pro. So you had to know where the camera was? That's very impressive. Well, I had the headphones, so I was listening. So you are in the, you may be in the movie. Yeah, maybe you'll just see a little, yes. Oh, I, you've got, I've got to see that scene.

I've got to see that scene. I've got to see the tree. Mm-hmm. It would be great if I wasn't hidden at all and I thought I was hiding. Aha, there she is. Got her. There will probably be other things too where I could point out like,

oh yeah, this is my reflection in this glass or something. I was just off to the side getting another treat, but you can't see me. Well, so I, I've been keeping my location a secret because I don't want to be bothered by fans while I'm on this. Of course.

People would fly in to see you. No, I, it's just, I signed an NDA and it's also kind of a fun little game or doing a, where a Carmen San Diego thing with me. Sure. Of course.

So I've given some clues, but so far everyone's completely all over the map on this one. Oh, wow. I mean, different hemispheres, continents. Yeah. I haven't heard any of the guesses. I bet maybe you can't discuss them because it'll be a further clue. Everywhere on earth so far has been guessed. Okay.

Wow. Okay. But I'm going to give a clue this week. We'll hopefully narrow it down a little bit. All right. And the clue is that this city has hosted the Olympics. Oh, well, that's, that's, uh, wow. I, you know what? I didn't know that about the city you're

in i maybe i shouldn't say that is that true yeah i i don't think i knew that well so as we mentioned at some point a while ago this season of inside conan we're actually going all the way through conan's entire late night run it's's kind of a marathon of late night. It is. In a way. And it gives our lives meaning. And today we're discussing what was kind of a major turning point for Conan,

which was the legally prohibited from being funny on television tour. Right. The Tonight Show and NBC that had all imploded. And as part of Conan leaving NBC, he had a legal requirement not to appear on TV for, I believe it was nine months. Which is- Hence the name of that tour. Really the worst punishment you could give Conan, I think.

That's right. For him, that's true. They knew. But you know what? He pivoted within like a week or two of getting off the air. Boom, let's do a tour. Yeah. He decided to do a live tour,

which was 42 cities. Great idea. Cause it really energized his fans and it allowed him to perform live and connect with people. It was, it was a really special time. I think, I think it was very therapeutic.

Yes. And today we're going to talk to two people who played a big part on that tour. One is Sona Mocessian. Conan's assistant, yeah, who I think really, she and Conan got close over that tour. That was when they were in the trenches together. we know they got so close is because our other guest is rodman flinder a incredible director who shot the documentary film conan o'brien can't stop which is a whole behind the scenes documentary about that tour and one of the big stars who emerged from that documentary was sona and sona's relationship with conan so we're excited to have them together again and talk about

those heady times back in 2010. Yeah, they have a lot of good memories. So here they are. The prohibitively, I don't even remember the name. Legally prohibited from being funny on television to us. Oh, thank God you're here. Prohibitively. Well, you just heard one of our guests off camera. Yeah, surprise, it's Sona. Surprise, surprise. She needs no introduction. We have two great guests. We have Sona, Conan's assistant, Sona Movesessian,

who really was a big part of that tour, as you'll find out in this discussion, and Rodman Flender, who directed the Conan documentary, Conan O'Brien Can't Stop. And so we're very excited to talk to both of them. So welcome, Sona and Rodman. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Hello. What a pleasure.

And hello, Sona. Hi. Where do we start? Did you guys see the movie? I guess that's a good point. We did. Otherwise, I'm walking. I didn't watch it till after I was already working for Conan as a writer, because when I got hired on Conan, I was like,

oh, do I need to watch the documentary kind of as research? Like, is this how I bone up before my first day? And a friend was like, I think that he thought that it would get in my head that I was going to get picked on and stuff at work. So he told me to wait and watch it until I'd already been there. So how long had you been there before you? It was a couple of years. And then I went and watched it.

I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is Conan. But it was probably good because by that time I knew what his love looks like. And that sometimes it's painful. But I think maybe we want to give a little context to how the tour began. Yes. Conan signed a contract with NBC when he decided to leave The Tonight Show, ultimately. Part of the contract, the settlement, I guess we should say,

was that he wouldn't appear on television. Nine months, I think it was. Nine months, okay. Nine or ten. So, exactly. And so, and he didn't know where he would appear on television after that time period. Nothing had been, he hadn't signed an agreement with TBS yet. He's kind of looking at this big void. And so and so yeah it sounds like he maybe had like one or two days he took a weekend off yes and then was like i want to get back out there i need to perform again that was basically it yep hence the title of the documentary yes yes yes conan o'brien can't stop right a few people suggested that he go on tour. I don't know who the original person was, but that idea was quickly latched onto within, I don't know, 10 days of the Tonight Show ending. And it was literally like, okay, let's start on Monday, cranking out ideas for a tour. Yep. Yeah, I remember. I think I, like, very shortly after the show ended, I want to say I met him at, like, a Boston market in Toluca Lake. You met Conan, yeah.

Yeah. And just to talk about what was next, and I know he was already deep in conversations with you, Sweeney, about the tour at that point. And this was, like, I want to say, like, a week after. I mean, it was very... I like to imagine that Conan had been at that point and this was like i want to say like a week after i mean it was i like to imagine that conan had been at that boston market for that entire week it was his new it's the only place it wouldn't kick him out oh my god yeah like we started meeting at my house and uh when he needed a break he'd go to the Boston market. And we just started pitching. I mean, we got all the writers together and they're all used to just like, okay, pitch ideas now for a live show. Yeah. For a tour.

And I think some of that's in the movie, right? Yes. Because I know I shot some stuff at your house. Right. With the writers sitting around pitching stuff. Yeah, Rodman, you came in very early on from what I remember, right? Yeah.

And that's a question we were really curious about. Do you remember how you became involved and when you became involved? Right. Okay, well, let's go back. Yes. Way back to 1938. A rough year.

Yeah, not quite that far back, but I know Conan from college or old college. That's right. Chums. Are we allowed to say which college? DeVry. DeVry University. No, it was Harvard and network break on Late Night. Mike, were you with Conan when I did that?

And that was a documentary. It was called Let Them Eat Rock about this very strange rock group. I remember when they were on the show. So you may remember an annoying person with a camera ruining things, and that was me. No, because there were tons of cameras already in the studio. That's true. You were a welcome breath of fresh air.

Mine was the very amateur one. Mine was not the real professional NBC union camera, but the tourist stop on the side. So anyway, I had done this documentary years ago about this band going on Conan's show. So many years later, when, as you described, the Tonight Show ended and Conan decided to do this tour, the idea of a kind of bookend, I thought it was interesting that I had done a documentary about a group going on Conan's show as sort of their first network, uh, big national exposure. And then Conan

couldn't go on television as you talked about that. Um, I don't know what legally the right words are, but the fact that he couldn't go on television for a while and he was going to go on tour. And I thought, okay, that's, that's kind of an interesting, like inversion of the documentary that I'd made 10 years ago. Here's Conan O'Brien who can only perform live, who can't go on television. And Amy, my wife, who you guys know, I think said to Conan, to me, you know, you're going on tour, Rodman should film this. So it all, all kind of came together and you're right. So it happened very, very fast. I couldn't wait for financing or anything it was all happening so like the meetings happened mike like you said like the following week right after the last tonight show right so

i knew i had to capture that right away so i got you know i just got got equipment and um just started shooting oh and the other thing was obviously obviously, I pitched my take to Conan, and Conan had seen the Upper Crust documentary, Let Them Eat Rock, and he really liked that a lot. And I said to him, you know, I wanted to capture this and pitched him this idea that it was kind of this weird inversion. And I said, you know, I don't want it to seem like a Conan O'Brien product. I didn't want it.

I just wanted to, I didn't have an agenda, right? I was just, I thought it was interesting that he was going on tour. I wasn't, you know, Michael Moore, who I love and who's been very, very kind to me. But, you know, he makes documentaries to prove a point right you know to further some agenda there's a thesis there when there's a thesis right right so i i had no thesis i just wanted to capture what happened or what was going to happen and i i said to conan good whatever's going to happen good bad ugly i just i just want to capture it and you got to know if if this smells like something that came that was approved by your publicity department i don just want to capture it. And you got to know if, if this smells like something that came, that was approved by

your publicity department, I don't want to have anything to do with that. And for some crazy reason, he said, okay. To this day, I still don't know why you can ask him why he said, okay. But he said, okay. So I just started filming everything right away. After a week, he was going through a camera withdrawal. It had been 10 days. Start shooting shooting let's shoot this conversation and i think because rodman because you guys were so close you had just access to everything i mean you were he he trusted

right you coming in and and filming processes that i don't think he's ever filmed right sweeney you would know better than me but i don't think he's ever had anybody film the writer's room before. No, not really. Yeah. That is a big factor. The fact that you guys were already pals because yes, a lot of times, like if a show, you know, like Entertainment Tonight was visiting the show and those cameras were shooting behind the scenes. Oh, it would all be fake, I'm sure. Like the Von Trapp children lining up. Yeah, exactly. So long, farewell.

Everyone's on best behavior and kind of paranoid. Yes. Well, how did, I mean, here's, I have questions for you guys. How do you think, Sweeney, the fact that I was there with a camera affect the writer's room? Did it change it in any way or? Oh, good question. I kind of, after a while, I was like, oh, you know what? I'm going to duck out just because I get nervous with cameras around personally, but everyone's different. Like Sona, I don't

think cameras bother you at all. Well, I just never thought that I would be like in it because I thought it was just always on Conan. So I was, I mean, I was eating so much throughout that documentary. There's so many times where I'm just unattractively shoving something into my mouth because I'm like, why would this happen in a documentary?

Why is the camera on me? Oh, that's funny. That could be a whole nother documentary. It could. It was just so many moments where I was, and yeah, and you're right. I mean, I just, I think I just forgot that the camera was there for a second,

but because it was there so often. Well, Sona, I don't think you forgot. I don't think, I mean, the first time I met you, I had the camera on and shooting. And it was, and you're remarkable because you were just so relaxed and at ease and it was it was as if there was no camera i mean you you are so authentic yes no i i really do think there is something to i think that i just was like this was a conan documentary i'm i might be in the background of a few shots, but I never actually thought that I would be.

I was I think that was the I mean, I really didn't anticipate being a part of the documentary. And I think that I was surprised. Maybe if I knew that I would have acted a little differently. But I don't I have no idea. I don't know. You became the breakout star. Yeah. Show early cuts. People loved you so much.

And I think your chemistry with Conan on, on camera, uh, was that the first time, was that the first time that the two of you appeared together on camera? Because. It was. And I think like, like Sweeney and Jesse, I think you, you're very kind to me in the editing process. I, I'm, I, I think that there was, you guys really are. No, you are I think you're very kind to me in the editing process. I think that there was... No, I wasn't. You guys really are.

No, you are. You guys are very kind. And I think that there's... I think people really respond to my relationship with Conan and you really captured that. And I was only working for him for like a year at that point. So it was just a very odd sort of dynamic, I think. I don't know. But it was...

I always tell people it was the best summer camp I ever went to. And that documentary is like watching a video of my favorite summer camp. That's how I always described it. What did you guys think as the show began? I mean, were you nervous about how it was going to go? I mean, especially that first stop in Eugene, Oregon, it feels, at least in the documentary, it feels like there's this sort of sense of dread because it seems like there's nobody there and it's just this kind of quiet place. And Conan's really anxious about the show. How are you guys feeling about it? Sweeney, I was just going to ask you. I mean, I remember, I want to say we sold out the show without having a show written.

Oh, yeah. Is that right? He sent out a tweet. It was the first time he tweeted, and it was to announce a show, the tour. And it was that holding your breath will the tickets sell? And then I think it sold out within a day. Every show sold out. And it's like, okay, shit.

Now we have to write a show. So, well, Conan, like every city goes to, and sometimes this is, you know, a little frustrating. You'd arrive in a town and a lot of times you'd be exhausted and you just wanted to go into your hotel. And you're traveling together. You kind of want to go into your room and- Oh, and be alone.

Be alone for like a couple hours. And get in the room. Oh, but then you'd want to walk around. He'd call and he's like, I want to go for a walk. I would be like, go for a walk. Come with me. Yeah. So you're out, back out, walking around.

And I remember Eugene in particular, he wanted to go right out and get a feel like i think he wants to see if you know what the vibe is and are are their fans in the town and waiting yeah or even just you know pedestrians who are like hey conan that'll i think kind of relaxes them to think like oh oh, okay, you know, maybe- We're in friendly territory. Right, friendly territory. And so he did that right away. And I remember there weren't a lot of people out. And I think that kind of fed what Rodman's saying, that sense of, oh God, I, you know, I hope people show up tonight. But then of course, you know, it was a great show, but yeah, it was nerve wracking. I think he says in the movie, why are we opening in a town where nobody lives?

Right. Yes. I remember that. I remember walking around there, too. There was like not a soul. Right. And, you know, I remember I don't think he was wearing sunglasses. He wasn't wearing a hat, which he usually does so that people don't, you know, recognize him, even though people still do. Yeah. And still just nothing. He had a sign

that said, it's me, Conan. Yeah, exactly. The show changed every day. We'd have a new monologue for him in each city, geared to that city. And then we also had two live ads for local places that the local crowd would know about and laugh about. Like, you know, a local dive restaurant that college kids all would go to at two in the morning. So we'd do, Andy would do live ads for that. So we had to write all those. Those were mostly written by Matt O'Brien and Todd Levin, the commercials. Those were so funny and what a great idea. I completely forgot about that. But when the audience saw their little local, whatever it was, gas station or donut shop, they went crazy.

Yes. They loved it. I mean, because they, obviously they knew this was not a, a cookie cutter show that was, you know, that there was some spontaneity and thought and care. It was fantastic. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I do think that a lot of, like, I thought that you guys were going to write a show and that was going to be it. I, I was really in awe of how you guys were constantly working on the show up until the last one that he did you guys were still writing new material improving things changing things tweaking things right there were different musical acts yes also different musical acts in every city wow and we'd have

cameos come in in each city we did the version of the texas walker ranger lever so yeah sweeney can you explain quickly the format of the live show? He brought the band with him, you know, the Max Weinberg seven band with minus max, because he had had surgery and we, we hired two backup singers who we, I think crowned the coquettes. It was Frederica and Rachel. They were fantastic. That's right. Yeah, they were great. They added such great energy. And also, you know what? They were new people injected into the group that I think Conan loved just being funny around them and trying out stuff on them. And I really think they were.

Yeah, that helped. Oh, and for all the writers to have them around because they were they were such a great audience and they were such a great energy and presence i feel like they were such a key part of the show and and in many ways a key part of the show behind the scenes too just in terms of putting us all in a good mood all the time yeah and dion dion had set. Dion Cole, who is a writer on Conan. Right. Hilarious standup. And he's, oh my God, now he's a movie star. Yeah.

Would do a standup set. Reggie Watts was the opening act. And he would kill right out of the gate and set a great tone. And then Conan came out with a band. You know, he'd do a monologue. And then there were all these set bits geared towards each city. Like there's a video from Triumph Insult Comic Dog every night that Robert Smigel would be dubbing the lines for. Oh, personalized?

And getting them to us earlier in the day. Personalized. Wow. And then write to the editor and the editor would bang it out. And we'd be going back and forth remotely to nail that down. So for me and Matt O'Brien was the other writer on the actual road. The other writers who were writing, helping out with the daily stuff every day

were Brian Stack and Jose Arroyo and Brian Kiley and Todd Levin. It was pretty nonstop. It was like doing the TV show again. We were coming up with new stuff every day. I was furious. And there were pre-taped pieces that we wrote and videotaped in the spring like conan a cold open of conan you know with a full beard lying on a floor in his room you know with pizza empty pizza boxes getting the call to come do a tour and then there were ones where he played an evil network executive oh yeah based on no one in

particular but the music was great too i you know i mean conan would sing the weight right band song yeah the coquettes and that always was a kind of emotional and great and so right at the end poke salad annie yeah that was funny Yeah. I, I do think though, it's very thematic in terms of Rodman's doc where it's Conan O'Brien can't stop. Cause you guys could have just written a really great show that was the same in every city. Right.

Right. And I, I mean, but that's not Conan style and that's not your style either. Sweeney, you guys put like that extra effort into it, which I think the local audiences really, really loved and appreciated. And, you know, I mean, I know it was a lot of work, but it was a lot. It's like, no, but you know, that's kind of like

rocket fuel for a local audience. So you want to kind of go that extra mile to have that stuff and to show each city that you really... To get them on your side. Deep dive into them and did a lot of research. Were you at all worried that Conan was going to have a breakdown or something or just absolutely lose his shit? That's what I was hoping for. That's what Rodman wanted. Rodman wanted that for the drama.

Yes. You were worried he wasn't going to. Yes. I know Rodman, when you think about it you're as a director versus a friend you you might have had wanted different things to happen yeah completely yes yes completely yeah and i when he was suffering or in pain or things weren't going wrong you know as a friend i i felt bad and and you know wanted to help him but then i remembered i had this camera on and thought man this is great for the movie i hope things go

even worse like what like what what could i do to make things go worse you know right exactly oh my god i remember this uh the the whole bonnaroo thing was a little, that was, I think, the closest he got to really just kind of, not losing it, but I think that was one of the most moments where he got the most upset was that he had to introduce these bands that were going on two hours apart from each other. And he had already performed. It was at the end of the tour. He was exhausted. It was 120 degrees. Yeah. It was so hot.

And he weighed like 40 pounds. I mean, he was just it was 120 degrees yeah it was so hot and he weighed like 40 pounds i mean he was just so over it sona carried him over her shoulder at that point of the tour she'd throw him around yeah well yeah and i'm sure he'd kind of been putting off i'm you know like when you start the tour so soon after you leave television you're not really taking time to process anything. So you're just kind of delaying the eventual letdown, I guess. Yes, he just threw himself into this project. And yeah, I bet he did defer processing what had just happened for the summertime. Well, he had a show to put on.

Yeah, he had a big show to put on he was busy he had a show to put on which was also one of the things that that interested me in making the movie was this whole kind of like judy garland mickey rooney let's put on a show which was definitely part of the whole atmosphere there to really like put on a show from nothing from absolutely nothing right how that the nuts and bolts of that. Let's put on a show how that gets done. Which were some of your favorite cities to go to, Sona and Rodman.

Yeah. Rodman, you were at every stop, right? Weren't you? Almost. I did the first few, and then I stopped because I was going to cut together a trailer that would bring me millions of dollars of investors.

But then as the tour kept going and things kept changing i was like okay i got i just gotta i gotta get back on the road with these guys so right you missed us i did i missed you when i was doing like q a's with the movie uh when you know it opened at um south by southwest and and um really had a great little festival run it played michael moore's festival in michigan and uh people would always say oh man that looks like so much fun like what was like your most the most fun city wow everyone's laughing i was having a great time must have really been fun and no it was not fun for me at all really it was you had fun i know a couple cities where you had fun rodman i remember oh tell us sona yikes i don't i don't remember that i just remember fraud i just remember thinking is this in focus is the sound recording sure like like that's what i was

worried about like like like is is it you were working too much i was i mean i i'm not and and when you're not shooting you're always thinking oh what am i missing what am i missing right and when you are shooting you think oh this is so nothing's happening he's sleeping right i'm like i i'm what am i gonna do literally like film him sleeping for like and thank god it was digital and not not film i was burning because nothing's going on. What is this? So that's sort of the curse of the documentarian is you always think either you're missing something or you're shooting crap, unusable crap. So, Sona, you remember me having fun?

Wow, I don't remember. I think one city. I want to say it was probably even Vegas where you just, I feel like you had a good time. But maybe, you know, maybe I'm remembering it wrong. I just remember you, I don't even know if you want me to mention this. I just remember you happily stumbling onto the tour bus in a way. It was great.

Okay. But that's just the one image that I have of you. But every other time I thought, you know, that I think about you, I think about you with a camera just strapped to you the entire time, just constantly filming everything. Now that you mention it, there's very little Vegas footage in the movie. That's right. Maybe it wasn't Vegas because I think we were on the East Coast for the tour bus. Yeah. Well, there were some places that, that, you know, they, they some cities and some venues had like different union rules or something

that they wouldn't allow me to film or, you know, if there were some theaters that typically they would shoot live shows in, it was like, okay, well you can't, you know, you have to have a six person union crew to even turn on a light or turn on a camera. And so that obviously I couldn't be a part of that. So that's when I'd hit the bar. Welcome to Vegas. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. So in those cities, yeah, maybe I had a good time when I couldn't shoot. Right. You know, you mentioned like, oh, I'm missing something. I was curious,

did you hear about things happening or did you ever witness something where you didn't have your camera or the camera wasn't working where you're like at the time you were so frustrated you didn't have it? That's a really good question. And I can't, boy, I can't remember. I feel really lucky that I got that moment where I think it's Jeff Ross says we got an offer from TBS and Conan says TBS I'm not going on TBS like what's what like where's the offer from Animal Planet you know I mean he's just like he's just like ragging on TBS and I remember looking at that scene later on and someone was saying wow you have to destroy that you have to destroy that footage i'm like destroy it it's going in the trailer that's like the best stuff to get yeah so i felt very lucky i got that you caught so much stuff that i wasn't a part of because i was in my

own little world every day trying to get all the local stuff done And we had to get it done by the run-through, the sound check at around 5.30 p.m. But Rodman, you captured all these other, like him hanging out with Sona and all the VIP stuff that he had to do every night. Like meet with all these people who had VIP tickets. Oh, yeah. I loved that stuff. The meet and greets. Yeah. The meet and greets, which I think have become such a part of touring, you know, where they sell these VIP ticket packages.

And so, like, I was like, wow, I was there the whole time that you captured all of this stuff that was going on that I, you know, I never got to see. Did you and Conan, maybe you don't want to talk about this, but did you two ever, was there any tension between you two as to what you'd include and not include? No, honestly. I mean, it was scary. When I first showed him the movie, it was, it was, I was terrified. And again, to his credit. Were you in the same room with him? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I was in my editing room at home.

Yeah. And I made him dinner. Spark. A little wine. Loosen him up. Yeah, exactly. A little sleeping pill. Gotta say, it was hard because by the time I had a cut together and showed it to him,

he was already deep into the TBS show. It had been like the documentary ends with him like walking out on stage on the tbs show right whatever happened that tbs show how'd that go we don't talk about that you don't talk about that okay he moved on to animal planet but imagine like you're saying mike that you'd never seen him kind of that intense and having gone through what he had just gone through with The Tonight Show and so publicly on the front page of The New York Times. So imagine you're going through the worst professional crisis of your career, a very, very difficult time, And a guy's got a camera in your face, capturing every moment of that process. Right. And then time goes by and you have a new job and things are, you know, you've got something new to focus on and you're making a new show and,

you know, months or maybe it was a year or so goes by and I call him up and I say, Hey, I want you to see something. Remember that time that was like the worst time in your life. Sit down in front of my computer and let's watch that. Let's revisit that together. Exactly. It comes with dinner. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. So that was hard. I mean, it was, it was hard for him, but again,

to his credit, there was hard. I mean, it was, it was hard for him, but again, to his credit, there was nothing. I can't think of anything that he was uncomfortable, but, but you know what, but here's the thing. Conan knows that and all that team Coco step was, was blowing up at that time. If you remember, it was, it was right when all that stuff was happening. Right. And he knows he knew and he knows that if that movie had a whiff of coming out of a publicist's office his fans would know his fans would pick up on that and

you know if there was any kind of inauthenticity is that a word right um to it fake or anything like fake about it and because he's not fake, and if there's anything fake about the movie, his fans would know, right? So he knew that if there was something that made him uncomfortable or he didn't like, he knew it had to stay in there, that he couldn't, you know, you couldn't clean that stuff up. Wow. And I also think, you know, he really respects people who make things and what they make and he really i mean i remember talking to him after that screening you know and he was

just i i think he's just blown away by you know it just looked amazing to him but also there's a lot of great you know i mean you're talking about a dark, but there's also kind of a joy in doing these sold-out shows every night, which I think you capture. I mean, I've never heard crowds like that. It was just pandemonium. It was really crazy. So, there was, you know, it wasn't all dark. There was just this kind of joyous experience. Yeah, it became exhausting.

I mean, it's a real grind, you know, it's just a grind going on tour. None of us had ever done that before. No. And we went on tour with a bunch of road dogs, like people who do it for a living, you know, I mean, people who that's their life is they're on the road most of the year. Yes. I'd love to talk about Gus, our tour manager. Oh yeah. No, I'm talking about the whole crew, about everybody that was on there. Yeah. And then there was us, and we never did it. And I just remembered, I think two weeks before the tour ended, I had a meltdown.

And I was like, this is hell. I need to go home. I don't want to be on the road anymore. Did you really have a meltdown? I can't picture you having a meltdown. I had a meltdown, and Conan was like, I can put you on the next plane home if you need to go home. Like he was very understanding about it. Damn, I missed it. That's something I missed.

Yeah, I was going to say, Rodman, where were you? Oh my God. Shit. But it's okay. I think you got me eating a sandwich that day. So at least you got that sandwich shot. In a way, it's also probably very cathartic for Conan to have all that on film so that he can go back to it. He can see it and it's very raw. It's very real. And it could show him how far he's come in terms of coping with that time in his life, which, you know, I mean, he's, he's really come a long way. And I also

think you, you made a documentary that could only have been made at that time. And it made it so much more compelling that all of that was going on at the same time. And I think you did an amazing job of just capturing all the good stuff and the bad stuff that came along with whatever happened to him. Well, it's all about you, Sona. You know that. Ah. All right. We won't talk about gus well you know what's funny okay so gus um the manager he was a tour manager he was a rock and roll manager yeah tour manager very experienced was like tour manager for the foo fighters right and and many other many other bands and i just remember when sona what you said about how you and Colonel these, uh,

this whole team who had never been on tour, you know, were suddenly in it with these, with these road dogs. And I remember there was like a spiral notebook that had every, every tour date and every, and it was a spiral notebook. And it said like, you know, whatever, July 16th. Oh, there it is. Oh my God. I have mine somewhere too. Yeah. I still have mine, but, um, but, but just not, not with me right now, but I, of course I have mine, but I remember like you and even Conan was like flipping through this and like, wow, look how organized this is. It's like

broken down by hour. Like we get in and then we have lunch and i just remember gus and all his road dogs were just like just like arms folded like they could like what a bunch of rooms like this is what we do this is like every tour like this is you know but the entire tour yeah was already planned three months oh wow and i remember him going don't ever ask me a question about what's going to happen. He goes, it's all in that book. Wow. Because if you ask me a question and the answer is in that book, I'm not going to even answer. I won't. Yeah. And he wouldn't. He absolutely would not. No, he was very low tolerance for anybody who wasn't paying attention. Low, zero. Zero. But you know what?

Within, like, I remember I was late for the van, leaving the hotel once. I was five minutes late. And he just came up to me and goes, don't do that again. But he said it in a way, he had such command and presence. I never did it again. Yeah. You've never been late since. Fuck the show and writing it. All I cared about more than like, well, if Conan the jokes did well, was not pissing off Gus.

Yeah. Yeah. I was so scared of him. He was so impressive. Yeah. You could tell it's just from years of being on the road. Exactly. He knows, like he, he tipped the hotel staff for us because he knew like people would forget to do that. So he handled

that. He would slip paper underneath our doors every night where we'd wake up and it'd be the weather, what city we were in, what our schedule was for that day. Well, you know what? He knows like if you're dealing with a group of 30 people, you've got to be super tough because if you're lenient at all, everything's's just all the springs are going to pop out and everything's going to some people are going to be late he had to run it like the military it was great but he never raised his voice he was just he just had this presence has this presence yes you know what i mean he was very calm and i like sometimes i'd be like how how is he what what are his powers where did they come

from i because he was so kind of chill in a way but because he was so soft-spoken he's not i don't think he's much of a character in the movie he's in there in there like a few shots yeah but because he's so soft-spoken it's you know right i was just gonna say i that when i saw all that notebook i was like i just i felt very obsolete i remember I was like, I just, I felt very obsolete. I remember I was like, what am I supposed to do? Cause everything was taken care of. And there really wasn't much for me to do. I mean, I think I was there as like a, as like an emotional crutch for him, which was, which, you know, didn't really exist much before. But afterwards I was like, I, I, I saw that book and I was like, I don't think I saw that book and I was like,

I don't think I need to go on this tour. But you did his, weren't you his makeup person by default? You did his makeup every night. Oh, I love those scenes in the movie. But then he got very like, I want to do my makeup. So he would, the way he would furiously tap on his face, we would go through, they would give us makeup that was supposed to last him for like a month and he'd go through it in a week because he would glop it on his face and he didn't want anybody.

I think he felt very vaudeville just kind of doing his own makeup. At first I was doing it for him and then he was like, I'll do it. And he would just like angrily just glop this shit on and it was just so like,

you could tell he was taking all his frustration out on like his face. His own puss. Where was it where there were two shows in one day? Was that in Vegas? Because he's talking about this makeup. Or was it Atlantic City? Oh, Atlantic City. You're correct.

Was it Atlantic City? I don't remember. I think it was Atlantic City. I just remember there were two shows in one day. And by the time he got to the second show which was like was like at midnight and he said i remember you see he had the joke where he said i walked away from the tonight show because they wanted me to do it at midnight and like here i am in atlantic city at midnight doing a show that's great but by the time but doing that makeup i think both of you had had gotten a little loopy

at that moment because you had already done the one show and then it was like, you know, midnight and it was like sleep deprivation and wackiness and everything else. Rodman, you said you didn't start the movie with a thesis. Did there come a time where a thesis did kind of form for you? when do you remember when that happened yeah it was in the editing room it was really when i was cutting it together and i you know i didn't going into it i didn't have a title i didn't have right um i i didn't know what it was going to be but ultimately i think it became a portrait of addiction right and a performer's addiction to an audience. Yeah. And that's the kind of when the title came to me and just like any addict, you know, cigarette act or something, you know, you hate the cigarettes,

but you gotta have them. You need them. Right. There are certain moments for you, you guys have mentioned where, you know, Conan's completely fried and burnt out and angry and snippy, but he still needs that audience. He still needs to go back out. He still needs, you know, to get out there and do another show. That theme presented itself to me in the editing room as I was cutting it together. You know, and also going into it, I thought it would be very interesting just to see how a comedian uses comedy to deal with grief or anger or frustration um because it does seem to be such a big part of comedy right yeah and to like

really firsthand capture how a comic mind um uses their comedy uh to work through difficult things so that's kind of one of the things i was thinking about going in. But then, like I said, it sort of became this portrait of addiction. Yeah. I think about the title of your documentary all the time. Every time, like whenever, I mean, it's been what, 12 years since the documentary or 11 years since the documentary has come out. And there's been so many instances where you'll see Conan just like obsessing over every something or like, you know, really going. I mean, you guys have seen it on the travel shows. He just doesn't stop.

Yeah. I think about that concept all the time. Well, that was going to be my last question for both of you is, do you think Conan O'Brien can ever stop? No. No. What do we do? What do we do about that? I know.

I think it's also where he comes from. Like, I think his dad was still working in his 90s. You know, I think that that's just, I think it's in his blood. I don't think that he'll ever, I mean, which is great. I'd love for him to keep working until I pay off my house. Well, do you think he can? Jesse and Mike? I mean, you know, because because it's been you know i i see him socially but uh you guys have like been in the trenches with him all this time and i am not i was just an observer of the trenches for that one summer just for that one very very short period

and like i said i i don't even consider myself in the trenches. I was just capturing the trenches. What do you think? Do you think he can stop? Jesse? Well, I mean, I would have, I would have said no up until I do feel like in the last year, since the TBS show ended, I kind of expected like that he would immediately go back on TV. And I don't know. I just, I thought that he would immediately go back on TV. And I don't know, I just, I thought that things would ramp up again really quickly the same way that happened after the Tonight Show. And I mean, you know, he's doing his, he's doing multiple podcasts and he is still doing a ton of stuff, but it at least feels like a slightly healthier workload now, maybe. I totally agree. I think after the talk show was over, he's like,

you know what? I really liked the way the talk show ended and I'm going to, you know, like last summer, it's like, I'm going to enjoy the summer. And that is, I agree, much healthier. Surprising. Instead of thinking, I've got to dive right back in and get on TV, you know, within three weeks or something, you know. Right. We do record a lot of podcasts. Yes. You do.

We're like two months ahead, I feel. Okay. Yeah, you might know more than we do. Well, he's channeling all of that energy into just podcasts. Podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. He's asking for more ads to read.

Right. Yeah. Well, that's what my question was. Do you think he can? Because he still hasn't. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? He still has not.

No, he's got out last, you know, children try to outdo their parents. So he's got to pace himself to work till he's 120 years old. His father is working in his 90s. Right. Well, Rodman and Sona, thank you so much. This was really fun. 20 years old. His father is working in his nineties. Right.

Well, Rodman and Sona, thank you so much. This was really fun. Thanks guys. Thank you. Hopefully we'll see you on the next tour. Oh God.

I'll be there. Thank you, Sona and Rodman. That was great. Yeah. Great talking to you guys. It's so fun having a real crowd here. Yes.

We're up to four people at once. It's like a party. And you know what? Our listeners are part of the party. They're part of the show. Jessie, that is so true. They are a big part. And you always have really great questions.

So it's time for a Lister question. Fan questions. Yeah. We have a really nice email from Chris Sella. Yeah. Chris is now one of my favorite people. Truly. Yes.

And you'll see why in a moment. I'm including my wife and two children. Anyway, go ahead. He writes, Mike slash Jesse, is it wrong to like the Inside Conan podcast more than Conan Needs a Friend? Hopefully the answer is no. Chris, it's never wrong when you follow your heart. Yeah, Chris. Even if it means you just got us fired.

Yeah. I think it was still worth it just to read this email. We could have chose not to read it out loud. I guess it's really on us. I guess we could have. More than Chris. But you know what? We're rolling the dice.

That's right. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris. That was very, very nice of you. And yes, it is wrong, by the way. Here's this question. A topic for the podcast that I would like to hear about is the inside scoop on the origins and behind the scenes of fan corrections, which was a bit we did on Conan for many years, Conan on TBS. Was it something that was planned or did a bunch of viewers actually point out faults without being solicited?

So was the whole thing trumped up or did it happen organically? Wow. Great question, Chris. That is wow great question chris that is a great question thank you chris well my memory being as bad as it is i saw this question an hour ago and reached out to michael gordon who a long-time writer and conan he kind of um marshaled most of the fan corrections on the show we did did like a hundred. Yes, I remember that. We did it once a week for many years. So we did like over 130 of them. Wait, is that true?

Yeah. That's so many. Yes. And Michael reminded me. I did a couple, but I didn't contribute nearly enough to that ratio. Well, by the time you got hired in 2014, we had already done a hundred,

well over a hundred. Wow. I think you're being a little tough on yourself. So Michael Gordon remembered that we did a comedy piece where we used some riot footage that was supposed to be taking place in the Middle East. And this eagle-eyed fan on his own noticed he saw a sign for the BART system for the San Francisco subway. Wow. noticed he saw a sign for the BART system for the San Francisco subway. And he went right on YouTube on his own, made a video saying, I think you guys made a mistake and it's embarrassing. It's supposed to be the Middle East, clearly San Francisco footage, and posted it, sent it to us, posted it on YouTube. And we watched it and came up with this idea where,

and this attitude where Conan doesn't admit that he's wrong. It's that the fan is wrong. The fan was mistaken. And when you show a map. He bends reality to fit. Exactly. What he said. Yeah.

We show a map saying it, you know, the BART system just opened a new stop in, in Libya. And you map saying, you know, the BART system just opened a new stop in Libya. And you see the, you know, the subway line going all the way over to the Middle East, blah, blah, blah. And that was it. And it all, and at the end, Conan said, Conan loved the bit so much. He said, let's make this a regular bit.

And so at the end, he challenges fans to go on he said if you think you've spot a mistake on our show you know send a video to uh us and we'll answer it here on the air and that was it it just took off and so none of them were pre-planned they all came from fans and they all came from real mistakes too i mean oh my god as smart as conan is our show he he would talk a lot every single night and so there were yeah there were quite a few mistakes oh my god the show is riddled with mistakes so there was a lot to work and it just kind of grew and um there were always a lot but of course after a while the the writers, you know, were like, uh, like it became part of the job where, oh, you know, we could use, uh, there's some fan correction videos to check out. Fan correction, guys.

And, you know, everyone's like, please don't, no, we don't want to watch any more of these. But they were fun to use or to mine because a lot of times Conan could also end up making fun of the fan based on the video that they sent in because people would, they would film videos like in their basement and there would just be details in the frame that you could kind of latch onto and make fun of. There'd always be stuff to work with. but also some of the fans made incredibly elaborate and very clever and creative videos so it was a fun it was a fun game some of them were just amazing and yeah do you remember you and i were in um with jose and conan was shooting the conan in berlin show yes and this young madman came running up to us we we were just eating lunch

and we we had to grab the cameraman and go shoot this guy shoot this guy because he's like he had driven three hours because he knew heard conan was in berlin and just driving around and somehow he found us and he had like over a hundred mistakes that he claimed right he had a whole list and he started was that the guy that was watching conan on like 1.5 speed because yes because he was looking he wanted to go through them yeah yes and he was speaking at like 3.5 speed yeah we had no i it was kind of a thing where it wasn't until we went back and watched it in the edit room that we're like, oh yeah. But yes, buried in all of the gobbledygook he was saying, there was technically a mistake in there that. Oh yeah.

So we had to give him credit for that. Did Conan ever admit to making a mistake in all those 130. No. Fan corrections, no. So he never to making a mistake in all those 130 fan corrections? No. So he never actually made a mistake or never copped to it. If we had decided to do a final fan correction, I could see copying to something for the final one. But we just stopped doing it. So there was never a cherry on top of those. But that was fun. And also it was great to

have a reliable bit that is one of the few things we ever did once a week like that. Yeah. And it was evergreen that you wouldn't, it wouldn't be tied to any news. So you could just slide it in when it was like, uh-oh, we're at war again. Right. All right. Well, thank you for that great question. Yeah, thanks, Chris. And thank you for the lovely comments. Especially thank you for that. Yes.

Thanks for putting us over. I would say instead of fan questions, if people just want to write us nice compliments. Compliments? Yeah. Yeah. Who needs questions? That sounds good too.

Yeah. What a great segment idea. Please. We know it's all coming from our producers, but we don't care. If you have listener questions, please submit them to us. You can email at insideconanpod at gmail.com or give us a call. Give us a call. Leave a message, 323-209-5303.

Yeah. You know what? I'm going to start asking people for snail mail questions. Oh. I have no idea where you should send the letter. To the North Pole.

Yeah. And we'll be happy to answer it. And hey, if you like the show and feel like something a little more immediate, you can always support us by rating Inside Conan,

an important Hollywood podcast on iTunes, and leaving us a review. I did a very scary thing, and I went on and looked at some of our reviews recently. Well, because we had asked people to leave emoji reviews with no context. Right. With a five-star review of course oh well yes that goes without saying you got to start with the five stars but i wanted to see if anybody had done it and they and a bunch of people had and so that was oh that's great really fun because it's we're not just saying this into a vacuum yeah i mean that almost makes me uh get up the courage to read reviews but i think i'll still hold off. As long as you're doing it. Well, you can read,

how about you just read the emoji reviews? Yes, okay. Yeah, because who knows what that means? I mean- It's ambiguous. Yeah, there were some skull and crossbones ones, but I'm assuming that just means- Oh, I love those.

That they like when we talk about cemeteries. Exactly. These guys really love to talk about ossuaries. So go on and leave us some more emojis. And let's end the show, not on an emoji, but on a phrase. A phrase that could be used with emojis,

but I'm going to say it the long way. We love you. Inside Conan, an important Hollywood podcast, is hosted by Mike Sweeney and me, Jessie Gaskell. Produced by Sean Doherty. Our production coordinator is Lisa Byrne. Executive produced by Joanna Solotaroff, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco.

Engineered and mixed by Will Becton. Our talent bookers are Gina Batista and Paula Davis. Thanks to Jimmy Vivino for our theme music and interstitials. You can rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts.

And of course, please subscribe and tell a friend to listen to Inside Conan on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, or whatever platform

you like best. It's the Conan Show. Put on your hat. It's the Conan Show. on your hat It's the Conan Show Try on some spats You're gonna have a laugh Give birth to a calf It's Conan This has been a Team Coco production