Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Bill Carter Returns

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Bill Carter returns to discuss Saturday Night Live, Letterman, Leno, and John Mulaney's Everybody's Live. Plus Jon Schneider of the Saturday Night Network joins in to share his thoughts on SNL. 

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by Late Nighter.com. Today's guest is journalist, author Bill Carter, best known for the late shift. He's currently editor-at-large at late-nighter.com. We talk about SNL, everybody's live with John Mullaney, and much more. Now it's time to go inside late night. Bill Carter, nice to see you again. nice to see you mark you don't look any different from the last time i saw you right back at you saturday night live i want to talk about the 50th it's been is i have so much to talk about

a lot of strong opinions but i do want to mention that you were there for the for the 50th anniversary for the radio city concert what was that like what was your experience i know you talked to the power players like smigle and a bunch of these people you have known these people for a long time. What was your takeaway from the event? What stands out? Well, it was two kind of takeaways, I think. It was very entertaining.

It really was really entertaining. They did a great job doing the music and having some funny material as well. And it felt a little bit like an extension. They couldn't possibly get all these people into the actual 50th show. And it was smart. So they did a separate concert in a really big venue.

And so they could invite, you know, thousands of people, so that was really cool. And the atmosphere was really great. You know, I thought people were totally enthused and it went over extremely well. And, you know, Radio City has a big lobby and they had, you know, a bar and all that kind of stuff. And you could sort of hang out there. And so, you know, I ran into Seth Myers and I, you know, I ran into Susan Morrison, actually, who wrote the Lauren book and I ran into Smigel and a lot of other people and we just are just saying how great it was and how amazing it was to be here for 50th the 50th and I felt the same way because I went to the 25th I went to the 40th I interviewed Lauren the first

season of the show and I certainly saw the first show and wrote about the first show so I felt really like it was a you know a significant part of my life actually wrapped up in this one event I thought it was interesting. Smichael told you at the Radio City show, he said, I think Mike Myers should do Elon Musk and then be like a couple, a week later it happened. Yes, incredible. And at first I was like, I don't know if Myers is good. I guess it would be funny. But when you saw it, it was like, yes, he is the right guy. So I don't know if he actually publicized that and it got into Lauren's ear or whatever or Mike Myers' ear or something. But it was it was prescient for sure.

It never occurred to me that the Radio City show would be more acclaimed than the actual 50th and 8H. Very different shows. You're on network television. I get that. But the people that I talked to and the stuff that I saw online and the enthusiasm, the takeaway I got from the public and the critics, way overwhelming was that the radio city show was the thing that really took the prize in terms of production. Yeah. There was a real tremendous energy to it. It didn't feel like, you know, in every SNL,

they have the issue of setting up and setting up and all that sort of stuff. And for the anniversary, they narrow the stage down so much that there are limitations, I remember from the 40th. But it's just, I think it was hard to maintain that kind of energy. And, you know, you had to make choices there. You know, do you do the classics? You bring back all the classics? you know, do something more contemporary. And I still was entertained by it. I thought it was good.

But I do think the concert thing was high energy and super entertaining. And really was great to be in the audience. Two things from a cosmetic standpoint. I just want to mention. One, they didn't show this because, you know, it would take away. But there were so many empty seats and they could have had more people that like Mark Malkoff or other people there. I, why do you think that there were so many empty seats? You mean at the Radio City one? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, there were some around me. I guess they overbooked. I don't know. And then people did show, I don't know. I really don't know. Because, you know, the people that were, I was not moving down in the front. And around me, I couldn't tell who these people were. Were the NBC people, you know, like employees at times?

so I wasn't I wasn't sure who the entire arena of people they invited was but there was there were empty seats for sure it was a casting service that they had which all the award shows do where they had a lot of younger people that submitted online and you had to give your photo and they had all the young people and I get it they have to you know SNL it's young and just to have that energy in but it was it seemed like for that the pit and some of the people in the front row Fallon even brought in one of the people that was a seat filler

I think next to John Hamm the whole night it was like it was like it seemed like completely casted from at least somebody that worked in entertainment I'm looking at it the public looking at it not so much I could not tell because I was downstairs whether the upstairs

was full you know I couldn't tell you know you could tell when you were going in you could tell there's a tremendous amount of people here there's quite a crush getting in but I did notice there were MPCs for sure yeah I just thought

that that was highly unusual but I get it you're the one that told me because you got an advanced copy of Susan Morrison's book Lorne and it was one of those things I'm like I don't know if I want to ask Bill this question but I talked on the phone and I said how is the book is it did you learn anything

because it's one of those things where I've been wanting to read this forever and it just you know we could go either way and he's no one is ever tried to, that I'm aware of, really, you know, tried to take this complex guy and do something like this justice. And you told me, Mark, it was so good. I learned things. I didn't know. And I'm like, if Bill Carter is learning things that I do not know, Susan Morrison has hit a grand slam, and she did. I thought it was great. I mean, I, maybe you have to be a real accolite of the show to really fully appreciate all of the detail about the show. I thought. I mean, I thought. I mean, I, maybe you have to be a real acolyte of the show. I,

show, which was interesting. I think she made a very interesting decision to do an actual show week and demonstrate what they're doing, which I think, for me, I love that kind of stuff. Maybe the average reader is like, I don't care what they're doing in rehearsal, but I was really interested in that. But I also felt like it captured aspects of Lauren. I just didn't know about. I mean, I just didn't know. What is something? California stuff and all of that. It just filled in a lot of blanks. And it also captured his. character. It was not a hagiography. It showed him being sort of a name dropper and a celebrity screw, you know what I mean? He had that aspect. She didn't shy away from that, which is really interesting because I thought he gave her extraordinary access, obviously, extraordinary. She was talking to him like every Friday night for months and months and months a year. It was years. actually it was years years in that in making i had never heard lorne michael's in an interview

setting and i guess he got so comfortable with her he just dropped um being you know public persona but when he was talking about chrismith with the new york uh magazine yes i guess and i just with he said something i hope his teeth hurt and some a couple other things i'm like wow because it's like in my head i'm like i know that this guy has his opinions and feels this way about people but you know he's been in some interviews he's like i said i'm like i still remember the guy's name and things like that, but for him to actually drop his guard and hear opinions like this, I'm like, I've never. Yeah, how many years later? How many years later was that after that interview? That was a long time. It's been 30 years.

That's cut deep. That interview really caught deep. And I remember when I read it at the time, I thought it was kind of over the top. But, you know, the thing is you, you become a celebrity. He's a celebrity now. He's not just a producer. He's a celebrity. He's a player really on the show and always has been. So it forget sort of, he's just a regular guy, too. And, uh, you know, he, look, I, I found some little things fascinating. He walks to work. I didn't know he walks to work. I found that fascinating. He's just walking in the street. I don't know, see where I had. You know, it's New York, so people don't bother you that the way they would in L.A., for example, if you're a celebrity. But I found that really interesting. And some of his crazy friendships.

were just extraordinary. You know, he has a separate house for, I mean, separate room from Paul McCartney in his Long Island house. I mean, like, all kinds of nutty details like that. The Jack Nicholson room. The Jack Nicholson room and the Paul room, where I forget which of the newcomers came in and said,

he said, and he's generous to people. He's very generous. And he said, you know, you have no place to stay. Come out, you know, to where quag or wherever they say. houses. And it, but that's Jack's room. It's just amazing. One thing in the book I wanted to ask you about, so you have

in 1980, this is not in the book, but in 1980, Johnny Carson takes control of the ownership of the Tonight Show. Leverage. I mean, NBC needed Carson. You have David Letterman who got, and I'm talking about the late night shows, that genre, you have Dave Letterman

in 93, which got ownership of the, he launched a show on CBS, The Late Show, complete ownership, CBS needed him. How does Lorne Michaels get 50% ownership of SNL? That was a fascinating detail, too. I mean, I don't know when that happened, but I thought, when I read that, I remember I said to Jed, this feels like news to me, that he's had 50% ownership since when? How? How did it happen? It was obviously in an extension of his contract, I presume. I would guess it would happen probably if I had to guess, and this is just me guessing, probably sometime in the 80s where they did not foresee that this was going to be. I mean, what would they? They were hawking like, you know, like VHS tapes on TV, but in terms of it being lucrative and the ownership and the reruns and everything, I just, I think that is the only way I could foresee NBC thinking that this would be something that they could maybe give Lauren 50% that that would impact them. I guess. I mean, they were doing things back then. I mean, they gave away a huge amount to

Warner Brothers for renewal of ER at some point in time. Remember that. When they got pushed into corners, they made deals like that. But it, you know, it just seems like they didn't think ahead. Like, what, what would the value of this be? That's it. And it's true in late night, obviously things are mostly ephemeral. You know, it's monologue jokes from 20 years. ago don't hit the same as they would now. But you see what it's worth. It's now a tremendous value, obviously. Yeah. I mean, Lord got reported something like $200 million for 50% of his share Comcast bought it back. In terms of the other people that were behind the desk, the only other people person, I think that I've heard publicly mention that they thought that they could

have gotten ownership was Jay Leno, said that he probably could have gotten if he wanted, which he didn't want, which I don't know why you would not want to own. Conan, of course, with TBS. If we're talking a major network, I think that's it. Conan did get... I remember talking to Jay about it. I remember saying everybody else has got, you know, they've got the ownership.

You could get it. I don't want that. I don't want that. I don't have to deal with that. I don't want to deal with that. He just didn't want the whatever extra complication it would be for his interest in the show. And he obviously had a ton of money. He wasn't like hurting for money.

and he you know he wound up basically banking all of NBC's money while he lived off his gig money so he's not he he didn't like he hated all the business aspects of that's why he had he didn't even have an agent you know after Helen left he just had his lawyer doing things it really he really disdained that kind of thing he disdained it but when it was in his his interest to do to politic he was the first one to do it as long as he had what he want which is what he wanted to if you could have to host the show until he died probably right he probably wanted that that's what he wanted

he wanted that and that was prime thing and they could give him that they kept giving him that until they decided to not give him that I could not believe when we're recording this this was yesterday this was big news on something that was long ago that I don't really understand why it made so much media, it got media coverage, which was that Jay was interviewed recently. Leno was in depth with Graham Bessinger. I believe that's how you say his name. And he was talking about how when he was doing, Jay was doing his, the Jay Leno show at 10 o'clock and you had Jimmy Kimmel, come on, they did this segment every night, were asked, I don't know,

is it five or 10 questions. 10 at 10, yeah. And Jimmy did this thing where he, Lenno later said he felt he was sucker punched which um you know um what's the i think i believe it was like what is the best prank you ever pulled to to kimmel and kimmel said i said once i was going to give a guy a talk show four years later and then four years later i decided to keep it or something like that and and jay said i now looking back i could have cut cut that out i didn't it was a mistake um i learned from my mistakes um and you know it's okay that you know it happened i learned but at the same time you could still tell like i wouldn't do that if i were him and it's like to me personally it's the reason we're having this conversation it seemed like j was kind of like making himself out to be

the victim where it's like no you took conan show you quote did a did a white lie that's what jay's words i did a total white lie that i was okay with it and um that was you know once he said that and put that out into it out into the uh people's ear and stuff i mean he how i don't even I don't understand how he's the victim in anything. He's a different sort of comic in a way. I'm like, if you watch Jimmy, you know Jimmy was going to come after him, right? They invited Jimmy on. He was doing it on the air.

He was killing. He remember he did a full face, you know, makeup job to the show. He was coming after him on the air. So then he invites him on the show. Do you think he won't come after him on the show? And what was stunning, I remember watching him was like, Jay's not prepared. He's not prepared to come back.

if you're a comic in those situations you come back jay is very good at the comebacks to it and it wasn't and i do give j um i do say at 10 o'clock jay was under a lot of pressure to to get ratings and they were struggling so i get keeping that in that got a lot of press for that show but mark if he had taken that out he would have been crucified by kimball who probably would have put it on his air in some fashion. I mean, he would have killed, he would have killed him for that. I think it was the only move to make after you did it. You can't cut it out. You then you look like a coward. You just look like a coward. I just do not understand how that was an unfair thing to do because people, you know, like for example, like Judd, um, Dave would go on Johnny's

show and poke fun of him for working three days a week. And people go on on shows Chris Rock. I know went on Letterman show at one point. And when Letterman was going through his marriage stuff and it was just like it was something that was out there elephant in the room it happened and i just for that for jade to have such a problem with that and be talking about and he says it haunts him still to this day um it's like all you had to do was publicly say that you weren't okay with with NBC saying in four years that but he did he did say that he was okay with it and i don't know if he welcomed it or what but i mean it was a lousy to no matter what, that they did that. I give them empathy for Jay. Like, you're number one. Why would

they possibly want to move you? But at the same time, I mean, what was NBC supposed to do? Well, it was an interesting, obviously I wrote a whole book about it. So it was interesting that they did want to avoid the Letterman Leno thing that happened before. So what did they do? They gave Conan the show with a five year, wait, five years. So Conan was hot as a pistol at the time. really, really hot. And he could have said, I'm not waiting five years. I'm going to Fox right now. 20 million. Fox could have cleared the show and he would have been on Fox. He could have said that. But he, like the other guys, wanted the Tonight Show. So he agreed to park his career for five years. While he waited for Jay figuring, and they all figured, well, in five years,

Jay will want to leave or maybe his ratings would be down. They didn't know Jay if they thought he'd want to leave, but that they set that up. They set that in motion. And for Jay, and they come to him, they say, we love you, we're contending you for another five years. And he didn't like the idea that there was a termination date. But at that point, he was like, how can I say no to this? And then Conan leaves. And then I have another guy competing with me, right? This is all in his head. And he has nobody really advising him. He doesn't have a killer agent. If he has a killer agent in these circumstances. He has way more leverage than he showed. He had way more leverage than he displayed. I think Jay regrets. And I think if he had to maybe go back, he would have given up

the show and let Conan do his thing. I really, really think that I don't think he would say that publicly, maybe. But I mean, it's just, he wouldn't have done the 10 o'clock shows, what you're saying. I don't think he would do the 10 o'clock show or he would have at least been like, okay, this didn't work and this was a failure. And I'm going to leave and do something. else for NBC. Rather than, I think he regrets what happened with the whole, you know, taking Conan's show. I mean, I mean, for Jay to publicly say, and I talked, I talked to him once about this, to be like, if, you know, if Conan Show was better, I'm like, you know, eight months is not long enough for anybody to figure that out. Colbert has been number one for

years, and he did not figure that out in eight months. Nobody does. Jay, and I told him this when we talked, and I was polite, but I said, your first year, you were having. stumbling blocks all left and right. You didn't figure out in eight months. So how's Conan going to be figure this out in eight months? But the problem with that is that the affiliates were killing it. They were killing NBC for Jay's terrible ratings at 10 o'clock and Conan's bad rating. Conan was behind Letterman. We fell behind Letterman. And so the affiliates were killing them. They basically canceled Jay. They canceled Jay's 10 o'clock show. And Jay could have walked away at that point. He could have said, I failed, I was canceled. I'm going to do something else now. I'll do

something else now. But he's a tremendous creature of habit, Jay. You know, he really is. That's why he didn't take ownership. He just wanted to do his thing. He wanted to drive to the studio on one of his classic cars and do his show, finish the show, and then fly to Vegas and do an act. I do want to mention, and I know I've said this before, but I think it would worth mention. The nicest guy, if you're not competing against him, in terms of, like, fans come up to him for photos in terms of him being nurturing for other comedians as long as his staff you talk hear stories from people that worked for him and stuff great guy and I know he's going through some really some hardships now and stuff and you empathize and stuff it's just competing

against him I would not want to do but I mean there's a lot of really good things and we have to give him credit for being number one but I just couldn't believe that that thing was rehashed the whole Jimmy Kimmel thing from the Jay Leno show. It's interesting to be because in the times that I have talked to Jay since this, he's never really said anything. But you could tell it was

inside him still bubbling that he had that thing. Because Jimmy, Jimmy Kimmel will say my interchanges with Jay become nice. Like they kind of get a lockside. You know that Jay is boiling about it inside. It's boiling about it.

but he's been he he he's been a number one guy the big problem the real big problem with it in my opinion is j had the number one spot but if you ask people what is his legacy what did he that is a big problem he doesn't have the same ongoing resonance as certainly letterman and and now conan is on fire right he doesn't have that and and he would say it doesn't bother him because he was more interested in doing his month, whatever. But he didn't advance the show in some significant way. I think you really thought that being number one was going to be enough. And if people look at Honeymooners, Perry Como was number one,

and people do not remember Como. They remember the Honeymooners. It's one of those things. I mean, when I worked with you for CNN, you're a Webby Award-winning host, and I was one of the producers. We did this thing for CNN. a podcast and before that you did the history of late night which I was

featured and that was nice enough to be in but Jay was supposed to talk about his legacy and talk about the tonight show and a half hour before he was supposed to film with him and the crew and everything is lit he calls you and what does he say he says he's not doing it because Dave wouldn't do it

a half hour before he tells you this he could have not just I was driving in from the airport I had landed that morning I was driving in from the airport and he called me and said he's not i'm not doing it and he said because you know i dave won't do it and then i'll look bad and i said you won't look bad who cares what dave's doing you're you have a you're a giant and lay that on your own you don't what does it does or doesn't do no no i'll just get slammed for i'll get slam for it i said you won't get slam for it if you do it i mean if he did it and you didn't do it you might get slam for it but if you do it you look better than he does

What would he get slammed for? I don't understand that. And Debbie Vickers, I thought, did a fantastic job. John Max did great. Yeah, I mean, I just think he is psychologically. Look, he got killed for stabbing his friend in the back. That was the way, the metaphor for him getting the job over Dave, you know. And Dave was not, did not feel he was like close friends with Jay.

but they certainly had a lot of interaction. They were, yes. And everybody in the business, I think, thought, well, Dave's getting the show. I mean, he put in his time he was going to get the show. And Jay wanted the show. So he was willing to say, I don't care what happens to Dave. I do want to mention, and I don't know if we've talked about this, I don't think so. The one thing about Letterman, about him being, you know, thinking that we're going to give him the tonight show.

There's no question in my mind, and I think in everybody in NBC, Dave is a host when he was doing the NBC show, phenomenal host, phenomenal product that he was delivering every single night. It's just that if you want to be given that gig, calling the NBC executives pinheads, making fun of GE. And, you know, certain, allegedly, I don't know what this is true, that certain people at GE wanted their teenagers to have tickets to be able to see Dave and Dave said, we're not, we don't do that. I have heard that story, but it's believable, completely believable because and but the reason that Dave was great is because he was that kind of guy agreed 100 but if you want to be getting that gig you and you're making fun at the network you have to at least

in your head know that you know Jay's going to all the affiliates he's doing all that and you are not that this could go a separate way that they were Dave is terrible at glad-handing he hates it and he's bad at it he's very awkward so in a lot of social situations which he's He said on the air, and people don't believe it. You know, people will say, like, Regis would say, come on, we're going to dinner. And Dave says, I don't go to dinner with everybody, anybody. And they all laughed, but it was true.

It was true. He didn't do those kind of things. So it was outside of what his regular life was like. And so he wouldn't do it. But you're right, NBC thought we can get a guy who do anything for us. Well, Jay will do anything to keep that job. Wasn't it like the Rick Ludwin-C. Bickers thing? It was in 1990. It was the 10th anniversary at Radio City where Dave had Jack Rollins disinvite Ludwin to the party. And C.C. Bickers was also not allowed to go. And it was one of those things that came up when they were trying to decide who do we want. And I get Dave being maybe upset at the network. But again, it's things like that. I'm not saying he wasn't in the right. I have no idea I wasn't there. But just not a good thing if you want the gig.

No, he felt snub, but when I, so one review of my of the book, Billet, Chip, was it was Shakespearean, right? And, and it was Shakespearean because you have these two guys competing for a throne, right? And one guy is supremely talented in this, in, in his performing skill, but has a tragic flaw. And his tragic flaw is he's bad with authority and with people like that. He's bad with that. And he won't do it. He won't suck up. All he needed to do was why does he have to himself? And even Ludwin was like, okay, he's piss at the network. But Sissy Biggers, like, adores the man. So Sissy Biggers was really hurt by this, personally hurt, because she felt she was a giant fan. She loved the show. She loved working with the

show. And she thought she was part of the gang, right? And when Dave excluded her to, she said to me she cried the whole way home on the train she was really personally devastated and that got into under ludwin skin and when they were trying at the last minute to negotiate the deal for dave to maybe get the show bob right who was very smart in this whole thing and kind of realized losing letterin was a giant mistake but he said to dave you know we can't have you disinviting NBC executives and dave was like oh my god this is going to be determined by my telling sissy bigger she couldn't come to a party like that was and it was enormously important it seems silly but that's what dave didn't get about it that you have it's still he hated all the

glad handing and sucking up the show business he hated that but sometimes you have to do it you know it's smart to do it so Dave there were a few times i can i can think of where there were people that were on that show late in the later years where he had he um i believe where you would say hi to the guest before the show where he didn't want to. He said hi to Merrill Streep. He said hi to Tom Cruise's mom the first time Cruz was on the late show, which was like, I think the CBS show at that point had been on for like at least a decade. There were certain times that he, you know, I remember him, he was writing letters at a certain point when Jay overtook him. He was writing letters to certain guests and asking Denzel, Washington, would you please come on? There were definitely

times where he did that. But the thing about Dave and I, just as a host, and like the NBA see and especially the early CBS when he's putting a lot of time into the show. And then the show turned into something else, which I really did enjoy. It was just very different. It became something different is, you know, that show, when Dave, after the monologue, some of those bits, they would either succeed wildly or they would die. And the fact that you could have something die on the air does not happen now on those late night shows. But the one show that does, which I find fascinating, and we were talking about this on the phone where there is that

where something could fall on its face is Malaney everybody live with John Malini which they've only done something like eight or nine episodes over on Netflix but they can do things like that and that can happen what are your thoughts on his show and in that element I tell you what I think is

crucial is that it's live okay it's live and you can't fool around with that you can't edit you can't go back you got to do it and you're doing the show live So it has a spontaneity that feels different now because people just aren't doing that in late night anymore. I mean, Colbert can have a really great show, it's a funny show, but it looks patched together a lot of the time. You know, really, he sometimes has a guest that he doesn't say is that night.

It was previously done. And it just feels a little bit awkward or mechanical is what it feels like. Instead of spontaneous. And Malaney, who I think has done some very funny bits. just awful stuff. I mean, it's like, it's not that it's awful. It just looks kind of unplanned

and amateur, unproduced, actually, is what I'm trying to get at. And it still has charm because of that. There's a certain charm to that. And if one of the pieces I wrote was if they really, one of these guys is really worried about late night and what's going to happen, they should do the damn show live.

Yes. When the phone calls don't go well, I love it. It reminds me of Dave's NBC show. Anything can happen at any time that something can go into the ground. And leave it. And if you leave it in, it still has the, if you do it live to tape, at least it's still live to tape.

But don't patch the show together. I think that's a mistake. And Malaney's doing a smart thing there. He also is doing no top of a comedy at all, really. I, which I think is great. I mean, it's just, and again, doing a show, you know, not having to go out there every single night, which breaks people. It's such an interesting experiment.

I hope he keeps doing it. I did find it interesting a couple nights ago, and I read this on late-nighter.com, which were both a part of on late-nighter, that Fallon, and there's a clip I was watching with Fallon had the actor Josh Hartnett on. And in the middle of it, Hartnet mentioned before the show he got it. I think it was a text from the director of the film that he was plugging. He didn't know the director was going to be in the audience. And Fallon spontaneously, supposedly spontaneously is like, why don't really he's here? Why don't you come down and brought him down? And the director later said he had no. idea this was going to happen and that was the first thing in a long time that I was just like yes that I was like that would be great of more stuff like that happened but I wonder sometimes if that if Malaney's show with spontaneity that that might have rubbed off on Jimmy subconsciously or maybe consciously well maybe I mean to me that's that's exactly what some of these guys should be doing they should be embracing unpredictability that's that danger there there needs to be some danger there on some level, I would think. And I don't know. I mean, I, I, you know,

I'm the Johnny Carson guy, some people will say, and I've watched so much Carson, but like, when that guy would die on air in terms of, and it wasn't even the monologue, he would do desk pieces and stuff, but that was, there was just so much chairman. If you're good enough comic to be able to come back, but jokes do not bomb anymore on network television on those shows, very rarely almost ever. No, they don't bomb ever because their audience is programmed to respond

whether or not it's a joke that works or not. And what really bad is when they go completely over the top of the claptor when, you know, they applaud every joke. When Johnny told a joke that was really good, they would laugh and then applaud.

It was really good. The audience is telling you it's funny and I really like it. Once you applaud everything, nothing is good or bad. It's all the same. Dave hated the claptor. I mean, the host, for the most part, I mean, no one likes claptor to clap in. They want the laughs. I mean, clapping, I guess. The guy who's had the most claptor is Bill Maher. Bill Maher show is very dense with claptor. I think some of his jokes are still good. I'm not, I'm not criticized, but they all get applauded, whether they're good or not. And I just find that, to me,

it's off-putting. I find that very strange, and we've talked about this a little bit, that's Saturday Night Live sketches almost never bum anymore. I mean, the 10 to one sketch was almost 90% was going to be silenced because the audience was so tired. And it almost didn't matter what you would put in. Once in a while, there would be something that you're like, oh my goodness, it would kill, but almost never. And the fact that when we talked about a big reason is they let usually 60 to sometimes 80 standbys in, which are the big fans that camp out that are camping out in there. But I almost miss some of the time when sketches just didn't work. That That was how the show was designed, they've said publicly.

I've heard Steve Eggins and Lauren say, you know, that this is almost like theater. We put it up not everything, not everything's going to work, but sketches always work now with the audience. They'll laugh at anything, it seems. The show is completely an institution now. It's an institution now. And I personally sit there sometimes and I'm just not laughing at all. And the thing is getting laughter. And I'm like, this is only because they're there and it's an event.

It's exciting for the people being the order. They're just thrilled to be there. I mean, Saturday Night Live. I'm going to think everything is great. All Kenan has to do is put on a grin and they start laughing no matter what if there's a joke, if there's not a joke. I mean, Kenan is unbelievable longevity. There's somebody I really want to bring in. I want to introduce the audience to who is from the Saturday Night Network.

And we have John Schneider who is here who knows a little. I mean, in terms, I think I know a lot about Saturday Night Live, but he's on the same level as Bill Carter and myself. for sure. And he does a phenomenal job. And he's interviewed a lot of people in the cast. And I highly recommend that you check out the Saturday Night Network and John's work on YouTube. But, you know, John and I were talking before the show when we were talking about Saturday Night Live. And John, again, as I mentioned, has a lot of knowledge. But, you know, Bill, you and I have talked about successors for Lorne Michaels. And, you know, if I had to guess, I still think it's going to be probably Tina Faye. I think in terms of her having experienced dealing with the network side,

she has the creative side. There's no doubt about that. But being able to deal with the network, I think she really, if she wants the gig, I think that she would be the most logical person. But I was talking to John before the show. And he had a question for you that I thought was so interesting that I wanted to give it over to John and talk about the future of SNL. And I thought that this was an amazing thing to bring up. You really set up, John. This better be a great question. Thank you. No pressure. But no, seriously, I don't think I'm on the level of you two yet,

but I appreciate you having me a part of the conversation. And Bill, it's an honor to meet you. You know, for me, I regularly talk to SNL fans from all over the country and ask them what they want to know about the show. And the successor to Lorne question, I think, has been on everybody's minds and he sort of, you know, put water on the fire at the beginning of the season and said that it's not going to happen right now. But with Ted Sarandos, being such a good friend of Lorne's

and Netflix diving into live content in the way that they haven't before with the Chris Rock special and now with Malini having his own late night show, I have to think that they are the ones to keep a watch for as to what might happen in a post-Lorn world because they have the budget and access to potentially put together the competitor to S&L. Right now it's a monopoly bill, but it could without Lauren there. The vultures could just come in and start doing their own thing. So I'm curious how you feel about that if that's the thing to watch out for or would perhaps someone like Sarandos who's close with Lorne be a potential successor option. You mean, as a producer?

Yeah, you never know. I mean, he's at least be involved in the show in some way. I mean, I know that he's been such a fan of Saturday Night Live. So I'm just, I think the relationship is one that it is part of a lot. In terms of a power player, Sarandos is easily in the top three. I mean, in terms of the names. Here's a thing. Would they do it on Saturday Night directly against Saturday Night Live?

that would be a that's a real risk to try to do that okay i think if they did it on sunday night and really did the same kind of show on sunday night and got it got some footing on it that might be smarter because i guarantee you when they first do that show it's not going to look great it's going to like like mark said about a late night guy taking eight months i mean it's very hard to mount a show like this and you know when lorne left and and they brought in jean domain. It was a disaster, a complete disaster. So you need time and real creativity, et cetera. I mean, it's a brand. It's an incredible brand. And when people say, oh, you know, when Lauren goes, NBC might shut down the show. I mean, that's insane. It is an incredible brand.

Without Warren, it's still an incredible brand. It's expensive. I mean, couldn't you see the possibility, Bill, of getting too expensive and a place like Netflix being like, we will, you know, Is it out of the, like, in 10 years, for some reason, network television, I don't know where Peacock's going to be, that the show could live. Like Monday Night Raw, for example, with everything with wrestling is on Netflix now, and it's just, I mean, it's still WWE. I do think that. I think that moving to a streaming thing is probably in its future.

I mean, clearly, I mean, I just don't think NBC, which now, Lauren out of the picture, has 100% control, right, of the show. I doubt they're going to just give this franchise away. They might put it on Peacock, right? It is on Peacock, right, John? Yeah, every episode is airing live on Peacock in the scene. Yeah, so they could just, they're just shifting other things over to Peacock. I do, I really think that, and it goes back to what Mark and I said, this is an institution now.

It's so big that their characters are in commercials as a, the characters now. They're in commercials playing characters from the show. It really has enormous cultural breadth of impact now. And I just think as long as NBC is a thing that has value, they're going to keep Saturday Night Line. I just, I mean, almost the last thing in football, it sounded like football, interestingly live properties, which I think is again something that should not be underestimated. I think that they're going to try to keep it. That's just my feeling.

And Lauren will bless somebody. I think whoever's going to do this, Lauren's going to have to bless that person. Because even if he doesn't actually have a contractual ownership of this, it's his. This is his, okay? He's created it, he's produced it. He's made every decision but for five years or six years in the history of the show.

So it's still going to be his. And I don't know what you think about Tina Faye, John. I think she's fabulous and brilliant as a comedy writer and conceptual comedy person. But I know Tina a little. I don't know that she wants to do it. I mean, I think it's a big, it's a big ask because, you know, it takes over your life. I just want to interject and then I want to get it over to John. She lives in New York, number one, two.

Her kids are not young anymore. The kids anymore. Yes, you're right. Those are two things, and I, you know, those are two things just right there that I could see that it could happen. It wouldn't be a big life change for her, John. And I will say one other thing, if I might, when I forget who the person was who was leaving. Maybe it was Gordon coming in or something. And people were guessing about who would be.

And I was writing a piece about it. And I mentioned that Tina had once said to me, my kids are, little i'm never going to do that i can't i can't be there you know i can't do it and i wrote that and her manager uh john what's david minor david minor david minor david minor called me and said um could you not say that next time that she wanted her own late night show that she would never want that yeah could you not say it i was like well that's interesting right that is really interesting that she wants to be talked about as a possibility for that so she has the ambition to do something else. And I think that's true. And Lauren would bless her. So we know that. And

there's a very small pool of talent, I think, that could do this. John, what do you think? I think if she wants it, she's probably going to get it. But I do think that we may be looking at more of a committee situation here than having one person up top. Absolutely. I could see her doing it, you know, one month or something, and then another person, I could see that. Do you think committee in terms of, like, I can understand a committee in terms of somebody dealing with the network and somebody creative, but you think there would be more than one person having a final say? Like, the thing with these institutions is with Ebersol had it, or even Jim Demandian shortly, there, I think that for that show to work, there has to be one

person that's saying yes or no. I could see somebody else maybe with her that could have the same title. I mean, Lauren's never given anyone else like that EP title, maybe two EPs that are dealing with maybe dealing with the network and she just has creative but do you could you see two or three people and them like like actually doing voting in between dress and live what gets in i mean no no no no absolutely i can't do that can never work but john do you think that that could possibly happen is that what you were saying i just wasn't sure no i think everyone would have their defined roles but i mean i just think that because it's been on for so long and they these are all children of the show like everyone who's done the show now grew up on the show so for them i don't

think they would ever want to see it die because they feel it's part of their identity. So I think if Tina can't run the show on her own, I think that maybe that there's some sort of her and Jost and Seth and Keenan, maybe it's a group of them and they all have their own roles. Someone does the re-through. Someone does the, you know, between dress and air. I mean, I'm sure Steve Higgins will want to stay involved as long as he wants to. So I think that there's a lot of options here on the table. And I think that's probably why we haven't heard of the successor at this point, because there's just too many people who want to, you know, keep that show going. There's, there, we definitely know that Higgins could do it. We know Seth could do it.

There's, there's definitely people that could do. I want to, before Bill, before John, before I talked about this on the phone with you, Bill, and I just mentioned to John before the show, I think in terms of the writing, this is some of the best this season. And John brought it up, it might have been, because this is the 50th, and they're putting everything that they can into this season. But I think the writing is, especially I was watching this past season. and this past week rather. And, you know, a film piece, it's a lot easier to do a film piece than the live sketch.

And I'm just talking to the live sketches that are in Eighth. I think that they are doing some of the best writing this season that I've seen in a long time. Maybe even from like when Smigel, Jack Handy and the Turner's and Christine Zander and those power players like Franken and Davis, I think the stuff that they're doing now, I just, it's really impressing me. And I don't know if there's a correlation that it's the 50th, but it could be. What do you both think? I mean, I think they really put a lot into the 50s.

Yes, absolutely. I think the show often rides on the host being good. And the writing can be good, but if the host can't deliver. There were a couple of hosts this year I thought were weak. They're always going to be, yeah. And people that you wouldn't expect either. No, because they're in fewer sketches. You know that.

You can tell. And then there are ones where, you know, I forget who it was recently. It was in every sketch, basically. And I'm like, okay, they know this is a guy. This is a player. This is a person they can play with. I'll tell you what I think. I think the update has been spectacularly well written. Spectacularly well written. That is the segment that always makes me laugh out loud. I mean, that has been very, very good, which does bring up the whole thing about Jost and Che and whether or not they're staying. And I mean, you could argue that this is the right time for them to get out, right? It's the 50th. They've had a big year. Che has been saying every year he wants to leave, right?

I would not want to follow them. That's like Conan following Letterman, someone that's so beloved. I would not want the gig. Colin Quinn trying to take over after Norm was fired, wouldn't want the gig. But you know what? It's real interesting,

because I was thinking about writing something about this. In the history of Weekend Update, right? You've had people who've come on and people said, well, how are they going to do it after X, right? And most of them have been pretty good. You know, most of them have been pretty good. it takes the time there's the top level you know like Tina and and Fallon were on fire like they like reinvented the thing you know but I mean you know Seth and Amy were great I mean like

they were great um it's kind of interesting and I was thinking about how you would rank them and I like you know there's a few you know or it's sort of toward the bottom but at the top there's quite a few it it has been saved number of times they've they've found the right combinations or a single person. People forget, though, it took some time. I remember Cecily, no one remembers was doing update. And Colin Jost, that first season was like, I mean, they made him re-oditioned. He's wrote in his book, which is amazing to think about. I mean, it's the same thing, Mark. It takes time for a challenging role like that. It just takes time. You've got to be, you got to roll with it. And that was always a big reason why Lauren, because of his power,

could sort of back the person. He didn't back Norm all the way, but he he basically stuck with his choices. And generally they, I mean, Joe's is really good now. So, you know, yeah, I mean, they're phenomenal. I mean, I think that there's definitely, if you're looking at that show, the strongest, I mean, I think in terms of like preference for me, in terms of somebody that's a comedy person in terms of, I know the public probably different, but Norm McDonald and what they are doing is like in terms of like for a comedy person um that i just think like you can't they can't be beat i mean there's a lot of other people did a great job and stuff but phenomenal and i would not again want to follow them and having to start over or start um with something would be really hard

i could see one of them leaving and what they did when um and putting somebody else in because that's what lauren's whole formula is right he never wants to start over and when they do start over it is hard. Yeah, but the team thing has come and gone, right? They had Jane Curtin and Akroyd, right? But the team thing has been like, you know, sometimes they've done it and sometimes they haven't done it. I think they would stick with it now. I also think as much as you're saying, you wouldn't want to follow this, right? Every person on that cast will give his blood to get that assignment. That is a great assignment. Jimmy never wanted that gig and really had to be talked into it and Jeff Ross was told

through Bernie Brilston you have the gig, gets on the airplane by the time he lands in New York on the East Coast is told he doesn't have the gig anymore and I think Jimmy was maybe the one person who didn't want it, but you think probably the most people over there

would want that gig. Yeah, I think so. I mean there are people who are characters I mean maybe Bowen Yang wouldn't want it because he's now really merging as a range a wide range in character. But I can, I mean, Sarah Sherman is doing such character work at the desk.

I could see them thinking she could do it. I mean, I just don't know what Lauren wants in that job now, except the back and forth with Chey and Jost has taken on its own level. You know, it's just, and the joke writing is so edgy now. You know, they are so edgy. It's just, John, do you think that SNL could get away with having the edginess and the sketches as edgy that the stuff that they do on update because it's familiar it has that kind of feel like to the 70s where they could do stuff that if they did now in those sketches I don't know

it almost seems like the crowd it's like the crowd they know that they're going to get like things that could be so edgy that could be borderline offensive and that is like what they do versus if they did those in sketches if they could get away with that well you know I think at the beginning of this season I saw a lot from Che where he would say an edgy joke and then he would cross it out and be like, oh, well, it's the 90s, you know, and he would make fun of himself as almost to, like, cover up his own joke about being edgy. And I think that post-SnL-50, it's almost like they have nothing to lose. So they are just going at it hard. And I think that one of the underrated stories of Colin potentially leaving the show is you lose him from the writer's

room, because I think he writes really great edgy sketches, most of them pre-tapes, that have been a really big part of the last few seasons. And I think that for him, he's been in the show for 20 years. That is, you know, for me, one of the really, really hard things about him potentially leaving. So do I think that the live sketches can be as edgy? Probably they just don't go in that direction. They don't have the group at the show to be able to pull that off. But I think as far as the writing team is concerned on update, that's what they're getting. And again, I think a big name to watch out for is Rosebud Baker, who was on the writing staff, got moved to the writing update team this season, and if they're going to do some sort of transition where Jost leaves

and Chase stays, he's very good friends with Rosebud. So we can get maybe one season of them. She's a very funny stand-up. Yeah, her work is all over the internet. Can I just say one thing about Rosebud? Can I say? Yeah. I was stunned to learn who her grandfather was. He was Secretary of State. Oh, is it James Baker? James Baker is her grandfather. That is amazing to me. I didn't know that. Wow. amazing to me. I don't think I knew that. Talk about nepotism. I just looked her up once and I was like, what is her? Her father's name happens to be James Baker. So I thought, gee, could her grandfather be thinking? And it was

him. It is him. It's just remarkable. That was a nepotism joke because politics. It would never get heard the job. I was just joking. I do want to mention one person that might be leaving. There's at least been a little bit of whispering who I think would on the right side is contributed. so much to the show. And if Mikey Day does leave, in terms of the writing, I don't think the public knows how valuable he has been to this show. And some of the, I would think high percentage of sketches that people, if people say these are my favorite sketches of the last 10 years, have Mikey Day's initials on them. And losing him would be very, very hard. I think something's the public doesn't know anything about the writers. They don't know specific writer. I mean,

you have to be inside to pay attention to that. You know, know, who wrote what sketch? They don't know that. They might miss it when he's gone, though. Oh, I think, I think that it will definitely be a tough for somebody to jump in that is such a machine and so specialized. What do you think, John? Well, if you lose Colin Jost, you hold on to Streeter Seidel for Dear Life. Like, he is the most valuable person in that writer's room. August White is also a really good up-and-coming writer who's been done a lot of stuff in the last couple of years, but Streeter is the guy. I think he used to keep him for, give him whatever contract, blank check, just because he's so valuable to the show. If you lost Colin and

Strygator, I don't think that the writing group has the consistency to be able to pull off something where the new era looks remotely good. So I would be concerned about that. I have to ask, I don't know what Colin would do right after this. I don't know. Maybe he'll perform a right move. I don't know what he'll do. He could host a late show. Why would Martin Day leave? Why would he leave? I think the same a lot of people do is because they've been on the show for, I don't know how many years he's been on John would know in terms of on camera and then as a writer. Just other aspirations. I mean, he could, he did so well as a host. I don't think he wants that gig when he was doing that Netflix

show he was hosting, which introduced himself to a whole group of younger people that wouldn't watch SNL. But like, you know, people have aspirations to do movies, to do half hour, stuff like Will Ferrell, Will Forte and Armisen that are doing all these things like Hayter, going at HBO and doing something completely different and he has the talent to do it and it's just those 20 weeks out of the year limit them limit you in some aspects and I think it's burnout and I just think I mean these these jobs for the most part were supposed to be designed for five years and then you leave that someone else takes that is never going to come back yes but I mean that would be the reason I would think possibly he would want to leave but in terms of a skill set he is one of the

the best writers that's gone through the show, no doubt. You remember that Mikey Day was on with Leno? Oh, he was a correspondent on the Jay Leno show at 10 o'clock. Yeah, I forgot about that. I forget a lot of things about the Jay Leno show, Bill. Yeah. We do a lot of deep analytics on the Saturday Night Network, and one of the most interesting things from this season,

a storyline that doesn't get talked about in the mainstream media, is that for the last few seasons, veterans like Mikey and Heidi, were really big parts of the show. In season 50, they've taken a major step back. Keenan, Mikey, Heidi, they're really not in as much things. As far as Sarah Sherman, Andrew Dismukes, like Bowen, those are the ones that have really stepped up in season 50. So I do think that if those players stay around the Heidi's and the Mickeys that people

have been on for eight or nine years, they are the ones who are probably just going to pop in every now and then to stabilize sketches. And the stars of sketches or the vehicles will be, you know, around people like Andrew, people like James, people like Sarah. And Marcello, too. Marcello, of course, yeah. Were you surprised, and I thought I just didn't see this coming, that Dan Bola has the vanity cards where he's been doing these sketches where a writer can actually get their name on a

sketch, kind of like Smigel with Funhouse. And I know Strader just did a sketch that got cut at dress, but he did a cartoon with his name on it that got cut at dress. I wonder if that is something that we're going to be seen. Because that, like, Robert will tell me, he's like, Mark, no one would know who I was. And if that, you know, people weren't, you know, if my name wasn't on that every week, you never foresaw that ever happening with Robert and that that might be a new trend. I think, you know, with Bula, he's touring with Sandler and he wrote with him before that.

He has a lot of leverage. I think once you start getting leverage in the writer's room, you can pull that stuff off. And, you know, you look at Please Don't Destroy, who had a lot of connections to the show before they came in. And I think if you're sitting in the writer's room and you see that Please Don't Destroy is getting, you know, tours every summer and they're becoming big names. you're saying, like, why them and not me? Yeah, I mean, there's a definitely, I mean, you saw like with certain people, certain writers,

do you remember Scott, people are not going to remember who this person is, but Scott Wainio was a writer on SNL who did Mango and he gave him a few sketches that he did as a, he did that thing with the microphone where there wasn't a microphone in his hand and he was interviewing people. So once in a while, they'll throw writers to do things like that. It just doesn't happen a lot. I just didn't know if that's something that we might. that might be more happening a little bit more. But boolest sketches have done really well.

And I thought straighter sketched. How do you know who sketches or whose? What do you do? You paint, I mean, John does it all the time, but do you know, Mark, can you tell who's I can a lot of times tell if it's a street or Mikey Day sketch. I could tell, I could tell a Smigel sketch, a Fred Wolf sketch. A lot of times, a James Anderson sketch and Paula Pell. I could tell there were certain people that just have certain.

just something about them. Sometimes people will use inside jokes. Dale Butterworth, you know that it's an Andy Breckman sketch, if somebody's named Dale Butterworth in a sketch. So, I mean, John can speak more on this, but I normally will go on X on what used to be Twitter, and a lot of times people will, the writers and the cast members, will say who wrote what, and that's the only way I know for sure.

But I can definitely, I'm good with certain writers on my guesses. Not always right, but sometimes. Yeah, social media has changed the game, right? Because then they're part of watching the show and having that second screen experience is being able to go and follow people who work at the show and see who gets credited for those sketches. Oftentimes we'll talk about it on the S&N because I think that it's hard to do analysis on a sketch and discuss why it worked or didn't work if you don't understand who wrote it. And I think, you know, I've had conversations with, you know, friends at NBC about this.

And they said to me, I didn't know that people cared about this this much. And I said, well, of course, I mean, you know, we want to talk to the NFL head coach and find out why you drew up the play that way. Like, we, this is part of the process. So I think that everything that goes into how the show gets to the way it is on Saturday at 1130 is an important part of being able to analyze if it was a good week or not. But the writers don't really do publicity. They're starting to more, though. I think it's changing. Social media.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it goes back to our conversation about Tina and the future of the show. I think that there's certain things that have to happen for the show to exist in the future. One, I think, is the writers, you know, being publicized and, you know, having roles on the show, I think is really important. And then the fact that the show is going global. I think that that's something that is way different from what it was 20 years ago. And Bill, I'd just be with so, Mark, I don't want to interject here, but I'd be very curious what Bill thinks about this because obviously they just announced S&LUK. So Lauren is going to be executive producer of that.

And I think it's fascinating because, you know, before social media, before YouTube, the show was watched primarily by North Americans. Now, we have people in Australia, people in Europe, who will watch the show every single week and are just dying to see clips of the show. And the show is sort of still living in 10 years ago where things are geo-blocked and it's really focused on what happens in the United States. I'm curious, your perspective, if you think for the future of the show, it needs to go more global. Does you, the UK version is not going to be, it's going to be with UK people, right?

But should it be? Should it be? I mean, it'll be UK people on the show, but should Americans be able to watch? Oh, yeah. Oh, who wouldn't watch that? I mean, of course, the British have tremendous comedy performers. But, you know, it was done, it was done, I know it was done in France. You can see the French cowbell sketch on YouTube.

I don't know if you've seen that. But, yes, the French did a cowbell scourge. And the audience loved it. They really did love it. But they didn't like the show much. It never became a thing there. And a lot of it is sort of cultural. I mean, is it going to be on Saturday night at 1130?

Right? In all these markets, will some places, they are probably won't be up and do that. Watch that. I don't know. it's it's a i find transferring american culture is not the easiest thing it's very easy in music but it comedy is a different animal that really is a different animal i mean you know i i interviewed this guy gad malaya i guess his name is right yeah he he he was a gigantic comic in in france really gigantic and it was on my serious radio show i was sort of interested you know and he said

His English was good, not fantastic, but good. And he said, well, I want to become the biggest comic in America, too. And I was like, wow, that is a small order. And that's years ago. And what's he done since then? So I think comedy is challenging for other. Everybody's sense of humor is fed by their surroundings and how they grew up and stuff. On the other hand, Trevor Noah did it.

I mean, it's tough. I mean, with the American version of the office, they brought it here. They started off more subtle with Corell, and then they had to go more broad. I mean, I know people who in friends with it still can't watch the Jervais version, and I still tolerate them as friends. But I mean, the three of us, I'm guessing, I'm speaking for the two of you, love that subtlety stuff with the British thing, but it doesn't always culturally play. I mean, they had to make it way more broad as the episodes went along. I mean, It was necessary for network television for a mass audience.

But I think if you got it, if you're going to make this work, there has to be some sort of continuity between the two series. Like, I think you bring in a Keenan potentially to host SNLUK so that there is the interest from the American audience follows overseas. You know, I read about this with basketball a lot, where basketball became as a sport a lot less popular until the NBA allowed them to put highlights on social media and for people to clip out their own moments

where you could just see a quick thing of a game. Like, I think that's the future of the show is that, S&L is comedy, but it is very close to live sports. Dylan John, I want to ask you, do you really think that this is going to happen, that Lorne Michaels is going to be going over there? He's an EP and telling these people that get hired, you're going to be staying up all night Tuesday in London. You're going to be on whatever floor. And this is what we're going to do for no rhyme or reason that they would adhere by that or that Lorne will take those things that work here and go and have.

have those over there for whatever reason. I can't imagine. In Susan Morrison's book, she points out, but there's no reason for them to keep doing this this way. It's just that Lauren has decided that this is how it works, and you exhaust people to the point of them being addled-brained, and that's how you get creativity. And I'm not saying it doesn't work,

because I think I've always found that in the cycles that they do, three at a time and then they go to repeat. The third one is the best. It happens a lot because it feels like they're just so tired and their creativity and they just come up with craziness. And I think that is a factor. But they don't have to do an all-nighter. You don't have to do that anymore.

You know, I think that I can't imagine Lauren enforcing that necessarily. And I can't imagine being that involved, to be honest. I can't involve. I mean, he'll set it up. maybe and all that he he I can't imagine him just throwing himself into it the guy is 80 years old okay you know I mean we we shouldn't have had a president it was 80 and I don't know if we should have what do you think SNL person yeah I mean it's because it's the first like English language other version of SNL I do think that getting it right is really important so I could see him

being very involved at the start or maybe he has you know a Tina Faye who is like sort of his you know, constantly glieri to go over there and take care of it for him. So that's possible. But you know, it's really funny to me because I even, I don't think I've even said this on the SNN, but a couple of seasons ago, I got a call from a current cast member in pretty much the middle of the night on a Tuesday evening asking me what they thought of the sketch that they were putting together. And I, it was, yeah, it was really fascinating. And I was like, I was like, I think you should like tweak this just a little bit or tweak that. And then they were like, don't tell anybody I called you or I'll have to kill you.

And I think it's like one of those things that they did they do it, John, did they do it? They put it together, yeah. It got on air? It did they do the tweak that you suggested. Okay. So it wasn't, I mean, it was obviously, Reeve was worked on a little bit more and became more polished as the week went on. And I don't definitely don't deserve any credit for this. But it was just interesting for me to just see firsthand how desperate they were to just get the approval of the audience early on.

It was almost like cheating a little bit where they were like, Hey, we're going to early in the week find out if this is good or not. And I don't know if that still works or not. The one documentary that isn't talked about enough, and I don't think it's on any streaming right now that if people that are listening really want to feel anxiety, is that James Franco did a documentary where he was following John Malkovich hosting and you just see on people like Casey Wilson and certain people that are trying as newcomers to get stuff on the air and even someone like a will forte and just stuff going.

to dress rehearsal and oh my goodness you just i don't think i've ever seen anything that's been done um to that extent where you really feel like you're following them around on a tuesday night um when they're writing and through wednesday through everything where you're just this roller coaster of emotions that you just really are empathizing with these people that every single week are going to battle but if you can find it it might be on youtube it might be somewhere but i think that that's an excellent um i'd love to see that i it was interesting in susan's book There are scenes in that, the passages point, she's talking about the week in progress, where Lauren says, you know, we don't have so-and-so in.

We've got to get so-and-so in. You know, we got to get, like he's thinking that he can't leave them out too long, you know. And I also thought it probably there's got to be times when they're just failing and he can't save them. You know, the desperation has to be terrible. a player. I mean, who's the guy, who is the, the guy, the sort of handsome young Michael Longfellow. Yeah, Michael Longfellow. He did something recently that was pretty good, but he disappears for long periods of time, you know, and I wonder, is he in a panic? Is he in a cold sweat? You know, like, it's, it's got to be tough. I think they're keeping him on

the bench, unfortunately. I don't think it's, I think that, you know, part of this bill is, This goes back to, you know, COVID and then the writer strike where S&L, when they were casting new cast members, couldn't go to the traditional sketch troops and find people. So they were forced to hire stand-ups who are all very talented, but it's sort of like square peg round hole where they were trying to put them in the sketch format. And it takes a lot longer for these people to morp into the show. So you have a bunch of stand-ups that are in their second, third, fourth years. and now you're starting to see with the rookies like a little bit more sketch

but somebody like Michael is a great stand-up and does really well as a game show host he would be great on weekend update but in a sketch format it's not always the perfect fit when you said they're putting him on the bench do you think it's because they

they can't find anything for him or they're saving him for something else when you put somebody on the bench you might use them later I think that this is the summer to get that answer right so if he's if he ends up getting weekend update, which, you know, last week when he was on the show, could have been

an audition, you know, that, that answers that question. And I do want, I think he was so good last week on update that I said that I think that he also might have nothing to lose. He may be in a position where he's either going to get the desk, or maybe he's not in the show next year. I think we need to look at certain people's careers like Will Forte and Armisen, where people, I think, forget that they took at least four or five years to get over with the audience, if not more. And you have someone like, how many years has Michael Longfellow been on now? Is it three? Three. I started in 48. So, yes, this is his third year on the short.

Third season that it's just the metrics sometimes for certain people. It's just, you know, for whatever rhyme or reason, sometimes you have people to break out. I mean, Armisen was right away very much given some airtime with this, the Fernando, that was his sketch, right? The breakout thing that he did, like, very early. Yes. I think that was his audition. Yeah. It just, all I'm saying is, is that for them to get over with the audience.

and to really get, I just think it just takes, it just takes different people more time. Whereas someone like, I feel like Sarah Sherman just right out the gate, it seemed like that very quickly. It was like she got pushed right away. It just doesn't happen a lot. Wigg as well, Kristen Wig, and rightfully so. Armisen got lucky, I guess, because Obama got elected. Right?

They made him Obama for how many, for a couple of years, right? I think he regrets that a little bit, though. That was really, of course. It was awkward as hell. Well, this thing was on. That meant he was going to be on. You know, they have to do sketches with the president. He was going to be on.

Yeah. Also, different era and smaller cast where he sort of had more opportunities to go up to bat. But with somebody, you know, when you have a 17-person cast or 15 to take a judge, it's never going to go back. It will never go back. The original cast, seven people. When you had Dana Carvey and Phil Hartman and Nora Dunn, in fact, you had seven people, plus have featured, which was Nealyn, it

eight, and then you brought in, I guess Mike Myers featured, you're at nine people. That is the way to get for America to know who you are. And it's the best way, but in terms of them, it just seems like we want to put as many people to give ourselves as many

odds like Vegas to hit, to hit the jackpot with somebody. Yep. And diversity. You know, their diversity has become more important to the show. So they feel, like they can have different experiences and backgrounds with comedy to mine from. I remember I was doing a piece about spending a week at the show or something at some point.

And they, I forget what they, what they, it was a debate week. It was, you know, like they were going to do a debate sketch for sure. But I was there for them doing the rehearsal. And at this point, I was only vaguely aware of, but Kate McKinnon did this thing at the desk, right? Where she played the woman who messed up the painting. And I was like, who the hell is this? This was like, I just watched the rehearsal.

I was like, wow, is she great? Holy mackerel. And I was like, that happens. That's what happens. They find one thing that's so spectacular. And then everybody says, wow, that's one of the stars, you know. And that's to me this year, by the way. I think that she is so good.

Ashley Padilla, the new rookie that was hired, just for me, I'm just so utterly impressed with her. And she's one of the best prospects I've seen in a long time. Yeah, we have to go. I'm so glad that we got to do this. Bill, I often say when we talk on the phone, we're incapable of talking for five minutes on the phone or even three. I'll call you and say, Bill, I just have one quick question.

And then, sorry, it's an hour and 15 later. Yeah, you have missed a meal. That's usually that. Yes. And sometimes, I mean, those recordings are podcasted and, and, And it's self and talking to John, we've never publicly done something like this. On what up here, you've been kind enough to have me on your show, but I just want to introduce you to my audience here, which I'm really happy to do.

We should do this again. I would really love, like maybe in a couple months or every few months, the three of us. I mean, there's so few people, and I'm guessing you feel the same way, perhaps not, that I can have a conversation like this with that I feel like knows so much. I mean, I learned from both of you, every time I'd, talk to you. I learned so much and that doesn't happen a lot. So, I mean, I feel so fortunate that you got to, you got to be here for the show and for my audience. And I'm so grateful. All right. I enjoyed it. It's time for lunch, though. Bill Carter, yes, yes. Check out

late-nighter.com. Thank you, Bill. Thank you, John. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcast, please rate it and leave a review. be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.