Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Fred Stoller

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Fred Stoller joins Mark to discuss going on Johnny Carson and Letterman, writing for Seinfeld, and his friendship with Norm Madconald which he chronicled in "My Friend Norm" available on Audible.   Buy "My Friend Norm" Follow Fred on Instagram

Welcome to Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff, presented by late-nighter.com. Today's guest is comedian Fred Stoller. He talks about his Johnny Carson appearance, his Letterman appearance, so much more. Be sure to check out the entire episode on Late Nader's YouTube channel. You can see videos talking about all about late night. Now it is time to go inside late night. Fred Stoller, it's great to see you. I thank you. I think I've to get close to the mic. Great to see you. You were in Manhattan.

I'm in Astoria. You were Brooklyn. You grew up in Brooklyn, correct? Yes, that's correct. So now you're in Los Angeles. You just moved recently. I was at your old place, but where did you move? Where are you now? Like the Glendale, Pasadenaish area, around the San Gabriel Mountains, Verdugo Mountains, very close to what the fires were. So it's all scary. Oh, gosh. Yeah, you know, I was looking at behind you, and one of my favorite things that you've done and you've done so much is my Seinfeld year, which was a Kindle single, which was a huge hit, which we'll talk about that. You were right around Seinfeld.

And this behind me, growing up when my dream, well, I don't know if it was a dream. I didn't even register as a dream. I loved, I don't know if they have it anymore, reading TV guide and circling the guest stars on it. So someone made a thing when I finally made it to TV Guide. So that was, I just love greeting TV Guide every week. Oh, that was an event. It was a really huge deal. I've talked to the people that were on my Carson podcast that, you know, would go through

with the highlighter and, you know, Johnny first. You did Johnny's show. We'll talk about that. But Johnny would go through. And his favorite, Carson's favorite was highlighting the worst stuff in television. He was always like, what if it's not bad enough? Because by the time that he, especially, it's more when he went off that, by the time he was going off the air, that there were all those ridiculous reality shows and he just couldn't believe. I just loved, like, who's going to be, like, Herb Edelman, who's going to be on Bob Newhart, Barney Miller, Mary Tyler Moore, just I loved character actors.

So I'd love to see who was working. Ron Liebman, Herbett. Yeah. You got to work with so many amazing people. I wanted to ask you, if you know, the first time that you made. National News. I don't know if you're going to know this. This was October of 1980 that it was a syndicated item that went through. It was kind of like an entertainment gossip column. I don't know if you know this or not. No. You were linked to a certain end of a person. This is

from 1980. Oh, is it in Nantucket News? No, this was in all these different states. This was, the headline was daughter's choice pleases comics. Comedians, Anne Mara and Jerry Stiller approve of daughter Amy's first real beau. He's a stand-up comic named Fred Stoller, but recently made his debut at Rodney Dangerfield in New York. Wow, yes. Amy Stiller,

Stiller and Mara's daughter, I dated her in 1980. So, yeah, I got to, you know, go to the house in Antucket and came up with a bit that Anne Mera said to me that I said my mother said

don't open the refrigerator door unless you know what you want. How? What am I supposed to look through a door in the rubbers or a menu? So she was Anne Mera and I remember the first time I met Jerry Stiller I just bunked my head on something and he claimed to be

a healer so he put his hands over my head and so yes there's other stories besides that. Maybe that'll be my next Kindle single called you'll never work for Ben Stiller. I don't know. You never know. I've worked for a lot of people except Ben Stiller.

I'm just kidding. Rooting Against the Knicks. I'm just being ridiculous. I believe it's like every sitcom from Seinfeld to Friends to everybody loves Raymond, from modern family. I kind of stopped with the new wave of the office, parks and recreation, where you kind of UCB brooding, talk to the camera. So actually, the last multi-camera I did was I didn't put it together. He's your brother for a show called Side Hustle on Nickelodeon. They loved it.

They thought you were so funny. My brother, Dave, created the show, and he called me, and he said, we have Fred. And they loved it. You have a picture on your Instagram with him. And he was telling me, and then we talked about this, that there was a professional wrestler who was on that episode. and he was such he was a huge fan of yours and this guy has oh he was a Seinfeld fan following it was um big e right from the from new from new i think that's the what he's from the from the w w i think

that's his character i don't follow that but his name it's how did i figure it's name great guy yeah but he you sent him a script he couldn't have been more yes i signed him uh you know he had an accident and i'm glad he's okay i felt bad uh broke his neck but he's okay, except I think he can't wrestle, but it could have been worse. So I really bonded with him, yes. You've had all these amazing experiences, and some luck, some things, not the greatest breaks. You know, you think like you're going to be doing Letterman. It's going to be, you know, it's such an exciting time. But the time that you do Letterman, it's the day that the Challenger explodes. And you would think that they would have canceled Joan Rivers guest hosting for Johnny

at 1130, but they had her do it. It was a different time. Yes, it's very weird. They went on with it, but I think with the scrolls and all-day coverage of an event, it wasn't really that time. This was 1986, I think. But yes, it was just really weird. And I think I remember Letterman in the beginning, go,

we don't mean to be irreverent. It's the saddest day in American history or something like that. I don't know if he said that, but something like that. We're going to do a show anyway, and then here's Fred Stull for comedy. It wasn't conducive, and all the other guests had canceled. They didn't want to do a show that day, but when they say you want to do it, you run over, you've got to do it. Oh, speaking of not, sorry not to interrupt, and I go, bummer, it won't be a TV guide. Because when they call you last minute, I used to think about things like that as a comic or a performer, will I be in TV guys?

And I go, oh, this one, they won't rerun it, you know, thinking things like that. Yeah, no residuals. But it was you and Dr. Ruth, you do the show. And then you were in Montreal doing the comedy festival, which is, I mean, such a huge deal. It still is a big deal. And is that when Jim McCulley from the Tonight Show from Johnny Carson saw you perform? And you got Carson in 1989. You know, you really do your stuff good.

He may have known about me, but I kind of, maybe it helped solidify that. Oh, yeah, he should be on, which is another, not bad break, but it was a weird episode. You know, I think I talked about, I must have talked about it because, you know, I did your show about Carson, but it was this weird. The other guests were yodlers, and they just did a break where Doc Severinson played. It was like, let's just got to have Doc play some jazz riff or something. So it was really, it wasn't rerun. It was no real guests.

So it was odd, yes. You got the okay from Johnny, but it is one of those things where it's like a lot of tourists. They want to see famous people. And it was, yeah, it was the yodlers, Mugsy. I forget his name, Braun maybe, and yourself. But you did get that okay. But backstage, I just. This is so strange to think about because you, I mean, the main thing is, is you just want to be relaxed,

but you had this manager who, for whatever reason. Where did you do this research? Wow. You, uh, so you have this manager who basically, your, your fear isn't, how am I going to do on the show? It's basically, how am I going to be able to be by myself and relax? Where did I talk about this? Where did you read this? You're amazing, but I remember now, yes, she meant well. She was, uh, she actually got me some stuff, but she was really, kind of nervous, yes. See, you brought over, was it Rob Schneider and Dennis Miller with you?

Oh, I talked about this on your own show. That's what you remember. Yes. Well, no, I think I was friendly with Rob Schneider. He said, I'll go with you. And for some reason, I wasn't friends with Dennis Miller, but he was hanging out too.

He likes yodelers. He's a big yodel. Yeah. It was very, it was an odd feeling because it's supposed to be, it didn't feel like I was on the Tonight Show because from where I stood

with the lighting you don't really see Johnny or the desk. He's just kind of faintly over there and I didn't see Johnny before or after or anything that made it feel like the Tonight Show. It's almost like I

was on a set of some other show and they made it look like I was on it. You know what I'm saying? It was weird in that it, you know, if I did, let's say something on SNL, you feel the people probably pacing back and forth, I imagine. I was an extra on SNL. I remember Dick Abrasol, like, I was standing there as Stormby pushed me out of the way, like threw me against the wall. Like, who's this moron? Get out of my way. I'm walking.

So you feel, I saw Bill Murray pacing going, what is this? He made some snide comment. Like, S&L, when they had Gene Domanian, it was like, what is this, the SNL, blah, blah, blah. So you feel the magic, you're on SNL, even if I was just an extra twice, but you didn't feel that thing about the Tonight Show, yes. You got that OK from Johnny. And getting back to Saturday Night Live, this is 1981, George Kennedy, hosting with Miles Davis Music, and then Bill Murray and Music as The Spinners. Did you know Eddie Murphy from stand-up at that point? Yes, well, you know, I think I did extra twice.

One was George Kennedy and maybe the other one. What was it, Bill Murray hosting? You mentioned Murray. You just said that you saw Murray Pacing, so that's what it said. It had to be here unless he was just hanging out. Yes, I remembered I did it twice. George Kennedy definitely. I was in some bid about Studio 54.

I was online. and I remember I knew Eddie actually like just a few months before he got SNL I worked with him in Fort Lauderdale, Florida in the comic strip

and I don't claim I helped him get SNL he would have got it anyway but I said you know they're looking for a black guy because Charlie Barnett who passed away was cast

he was a street performer but he got let go because he sadly was illiterate couldn't read cue cards so I said they let him go, but he would have found, they would have found Eddie. I don't mean, no, he owes me. No, no, no.

He knew me. So I remember he was like a bit about Santa where he was like being Santa and put money in the charity thing. And I remember I put money and he went, only loud enough for me to have Freddy because I used to do a bit my mother calling me, he went Freddy. Like it was fun right on SNL, I mean, you know, just for me. I've talked to people that knew Eddie Murphy before he got Saturday night live and he would tell people I'm going to be famous in less than a year. You would say things like that and it was unbelievable, I mean, manifest it, whatever you want to call it, but he, I've heard him talk about this before that he just knew he was to be famous.

He only has ever auditioned once for anything and that was he audition for SNL on the 17th floor. Was he like that just completely competent? I mean, when you worked with him, you kind of knew where at least, Well, pretty much, but it wasn't impossible, but yeah, he was very confident. You know, it's weird. When you're, I must have been only 22 at the time when he got it, maybe 23. But, you know, I, you're naive where you don't really process, you know, like, oh, I knew Adam Sandler was going to be a star because I had this naive. mindset, like I thought the big deals were, and this is contradictory to other comedy clubs where the big deals at the comedy, New York clubs were the MCs in the 80s.

They decided who was going to go on, like Catch, Richard Belser, eventually Bill Maher, in New York, it was Jimmy Brogan, I'm sure you know, Robert Wall, this guy Barry Diamond, And they would, like, the big deals with the regular as a guy, Glenn Hirsch, you know, you know, so you don't, you just, you have the mindset of just the club mentality, at least I did. Yeah, I mean, you got to work with so many amazing people. I was going to ask about the young comedian special because it was such a huge deal back in the day. And Dennis Miller hosted this one. And you wrote in 2017, another single, a Kindle single, which was Five Minutes to Kill, how the HBO Young Comedian Special, Change the Lives of 1989's Funniest Comics.

And it was you and David Spade, Rob Schneider, Jan Karam. I tried to get Jan on the Carson podcast. Stephanie Hodge, Warren. No, no. It wasn't Stephanie Hodge. It was Warren Thomas and Drake. say there. Oh, Drake. I don't know why I said Stephanie. Okay, so Drake, um, say there, who unfortunately, um, and Warren Thomas is no longer with us. Yeah. Unfortunately, at Drake

say there, um, met some issues and unfortunately took his life. Um, but an amazing group of people. What was this like? The pressure. And again, it's like, you know, you have five minutes. And this was, I mean, in terms of the industry at the time, this was the biggest showcase. Yeah. This was before obviously, uh, Netflix. You, YouTube, everything. It was probably even the infancy of Comedy Central. And funny, when I was in New York, I auditioned for Rodney Dangerfield at Dangerfields, because he used to present the young comedians.

And, yeah, it was a big deal. And I remember I learned something. I remember I auditioned for him. And I thought I had a good set. I go, what do you think? He goes, you're too low-key, okay? And Norm always loved Norm McDonnell when I used to tell the Rodney thing. When he saw me in Fort Lauderdale with Eddie Murphy, he came in. He goes, you take too many liberties, you know.

And so I remember I said to a comedian, I said, oh, I just audition. I thought I did good. Rodney said, I'm too low-key. He goes, that's a euphemism for no. Anytime they give you a reason, it just means no. And it really was helpful because reason schmisen, you know, you just, they want you or not. So it was something that was on my radar, you know, things like that, even things like they had a thing with, was a Robert Townsend or where he had something where they had like four black guys and Barry Sobel and he did good from that. So something like that. So yes, so it was very harrowing where, you know, you have five minutes and then what joke should I do, this, that, and they did two shows that night.

So I remember, yeah, and it was, and ours was in L.A. So industry crowds don't laugh as much. They're kind of jaded. So it wasn't as uproarious. I remember David Bowie was backstage. He was in the crowd. Your IMDB credits, I mean, it's just, I mean, it seems like at least 100. Well, it sounds like, it sounds like I'm very rich because I always say, and I wrote

the book called Maybe We'll Have You Back because I was always a guest, never a regular. So I never hit the home run. So it sounds great. And it's a lot better than what I thought I'd be when I grew up. But I was, you're on eggshells because you can't mess up. You can't flub. You've got to score with every line. And, you know, the regulars are talking about their summer houses,

what they're going to wear to the Emmys and their raises. So it still was never a relaxed position, even though I was getting credits, it's always like these temporary jobs where you hope they ask you back and you hope you score and you hope one day to get into something where you feel a little comfortable. I've been in public with you before. They call you the mayor of the Grove, which I don't know how you even got that title where it's like every demographic. It was like the bachelor you get voted. No, I'm just kidding.

They have a whole process. It's one of those things where it's like every demographic would knew who you were. were. It was amazing. No, it's not as much as it used to be. Now, what it's very flattering is someone goes, who are you? They always now say, where do I know you from? If they're in their 20s, they maybe grew up watching a PBS show Word Girl animation and Wizards of Waverly plays Drake of Josh, Drake and Josh. So that's, you know, when I first started doing, well, like your brother's show, it papo did, oh, it's not network. money and it's but now as I got older I really appreciate when those kids grew up being part

of their childhood it's really special it's incredible I know that you did one pike um you did one podcast and they called you that when how did fred become a disney star icon or something like that I mean it is one of those things to the I don't know if it's an icon but that's what they call the episode yes yeah I thought that that was really nice was that hard when you did young comedian special and you saw somebody like a david spade eruption enter take off on saturday night live and start doing movies? Well, it's funny. I didn't process it quite like, well, I remember I wrote in the book, like I was doing

these god-awful college where I bombed and I had bronchitis coughing on the plane. And I was reading some paper about the new SNL star Rob Schneider taken off. And, you know, you go, oh, I guess things aren't working out for me like that. And I remember then kind of forgetting about it. And then on Mark Marin, Rob Schneider was on. And he said, what's your break? What was your break? He goes, the young comedian special, I go, I was on that one.

Why wasn't it my big break? So, yeah, you think of silly things like that. But I mean, in terms of shows and in terms of late night, you did Jay Leno's Tonight show very quickly. He premiered on May 25th of 92, and you did your, on September 30th, 90s, what was it like going on Jay's Tonight Show? You know, it was weird in that, again,

I hope not to sound negative, but at that time, the lines were blurred. There were so many, I don't know how old you are if you remember, but like the 90s, what year was the Janeno, did you just say? Lano premiered in May 25th, 1992. Okay.

So then they had evening at the improv on A&E every night of a week. They had Rosie O'Donnell had a thing. They had Carolines had a cable thing. They had things, comic strip live. I can't even name all the shows. So it became a weird blurred line where people, before I did the tonight show, so I saw you in the tonight show, no, I wasn't. Yes, you are.

And you go, okay, you know, you want to argue. you. So a little bit of the mf of the tonight show was kind of you know, and again, I stand-up was different because now you have people like Bob Art Kreischer. It doesn't really do jokes. He just, I don't know what he does, but he's a gazillionaire. But back then it was about you're in six minutes set.

What's my opening line? You're always doing these kind of, like I said, VH1, Comedy Central. Actually, where I did the Young Comedient Special, I had done two other things. There was the A-list that was hosted by Richard Lewis, then Sandra Bernhard. There was, and I did a half-hour comedy hour, Mario Joyner. So there were tons of these things. So it was kind of weird when I did a Leno's Tonight Show.

I remember doing a joke. And I remember the segment producer. would say, we want you to do this joke. They would watch other things. So you look lame, repeating jokes, but they kind of say, we want this because we know this will work and this. So I remember doing a joke that would get applause breaks. And I did it, and it didn't.

So it kind of threw me off. So you kind of, yeah, that like I said, blurred lines. I know in the background people can't see right now, but you had, I saw when we got on, we were talking, The Thrill Seeker. Yes, someone did a poster. Yes, for me. I told you, every time I've talked to, my friend DJ Cash and I, in Hershey, Pennsylvania at lunch, would just laugh and laugh. You would quote that all the time.

That was the time I was doing all those shows. You heard me right. I drank milk that expired yesterday. You can't stop me. Yeah. We would see you on all the shows. And it was so funny. What was it like when you did evening at the improv hosted by Bud Court?

because Bud Court, I know I'm from Harold and Maud, and I know he's part of the Groucho on Mount Marks, and I know he, you know, did stand up at one point, but I think before Harold and Maud, what would you recall? He was very gracious, very nice. It was my second time. My friend Charles made a joke

that after a while doing Evening Improv was like doing jury duty. Like I did it four or five times, and the host of the, I can use the word blurred lines, was who's the host, who's the stand-ups because they ran out of, you know, whatever TV people hosted and it was Bobby Kelton, I mean to put Bobby Kelton down or whatever, is he the host or one of the comics? So it was, and then it got,

then they moved the evening at the improv to the Sanamanic Improv where it wasn't even filled up. So it kind of, it ran its course. So, you know, I remember one time I was waiting to go on, evening at the improv. And so he goes, you're going next. I go, yeah, he goes, my friend's in the front, make fun of him. So it kind of didn't have the allure, the magic of, you know, some of the other shows. I talked to somebody who was a New York comic who did that show, and they had to pretend to be really good friends with Bud Friedman, because afterward Bud Friedman would go up to the person. And a lot of times

he did know the person. It was this warm embrace. And it was like, oh, you have this report. You've known each other for years. Yes. This guy's like, never met him in my life. And it was like, I couldn't, you fooled me, he couldn't tell. But yeah, it's like. Yeah, I was, yeah, I remember Drake Sater, said, you're supposed to hug butt after the end. I don't even hug my father. I was looking at your credits. And I don't believe we, I've talked about this.

And I didn't, I wanted to ask if this was about this experience. But this was, when Joan Rivers got, was the host of the late show on Fox, she, she was removed by Barry Diller. And then they had guest hosts. And one of them was Arsenio. And you did a show with Arsenio in 1987, correct? Something like that. I hadn't quite moved to L.A. yet. It was, that had more of a magic fun field than evening at the improv.

I didn't quite know. I sort of knew who Arsenio Hall was, but I was, I remember being loose and just saying stupid things and them laughing. Like, oh, I'm having too much fun. Yeah, I don't know. But it was a. It was fun, yeah. You have all these people that are guests, like Little Richard, I think, was on that night. And you never know who's going to be on.

Would you go backstage and say hi to some of the other guest and get photos or just introduce your? No, we didn't have photos. I don't have a lot of older pictures because we didn't have phones and all those cameras. I don't think I ever like, I was just probably pacing in my room looking over my act. I don't think I felt loose enough to, I am Fred. could I get a picture? I don't think that ever happened. I know that you did hot properties with Richard Belser, and then you did also, you went on another show when David Brenner had his short live show. Nightlife with David Brenner, yes. What was it like going on with those

gentlemen? I know Brenner's show is only a half hour long. Yeah, that was very exciting because I had loved David Brenner in the 70s. I saw him at Brooklyn College on some date. loved him on, you know, the talk shows, game shows. And I did my act on it. I remember I was turned down for the letterman figuring, okay, I'm not going to come back. I put together a set. And it was very loose. It was, I remember Chris Rock came to watch my act and he was supportive. And then they liked me a lot and they decided to bring me back, sort of like Chris Elliott stuff, you know, where I'm the parking attendant or the usher, and I did some real fun stuff on it. Yes, and one was I did panel, and I did a joke, I got a tattoo, and it said, my mother,

it said Mrs. Stoller or mom. Mom, when you did Star Search, did you get to spend any time with Ed McMahon? What stands out? I don't know. I don't know. He's just, well, it's like a circus back there. I remember there was one country Western singer group that made it big. I forgot what they were called.

Sawyer Brown. I don't follow country, rest. And you had like literally acrobatts, people pacing, rap groups, break dancers, you know, was all walking around the halls just waiting to go on. Who was the comedian that froze that they had to edit around? There was a comedian. Joe Bolster. Okay.

Yeah. And it was one of those things where I don't know. of that had happened. I mean, George Miller that happened to on Carson, his last Carson appearance, where they had to stop tape and they didn't know that. Yeah, Johnny said, you know, this could happen to anybody.

We're going to bring him back out again. And he did very well with that and you couldn't tell. But yeah, it is one of those things. Thank goodness. I mean, Johnny hated to stop. I mean, when, so funny, when Robert

Goulet forgot the words to memories is and the Johnny, he's like, can we stop? And he's like, no, we're going to keep going. And it was wonderful. And, like, the audience loved Goulet because it was this famous. Well, that's a joke memories he can remember. Yes, exactly. That's exactly, right.

I loved when you wrote my science film year. You were a writer at the show and then you were on the show. But it was such a, just such an, because I mean, I think as sitcoms go, it's probably, you know, one of them probably maybe in the, most beloved sitcom of all time, but you've been there. But it was a really intimidating place. And it wasn't like you were looking, this was your dream or anything. Larry David encouraged you to submit and it just kind of happened. And you're with all these heavyweights and you just the entire time were just struggling, correct? Well, it was isolating. And it's not like other

sitcoms where they have a table and work together. Everyone's trying to get their own stories, their own scripts on. And they're not bad people. but they're in their rooms and, you know, I don't want to bother them. And Larry and Jerry were pretty inaccessible because they're doing everything, casting, editing, rewriting, they're on the floor. And you can't write anything until Larry approves your storyline. So I kind of, it was, I don't know if I learned much because I really wasn't part of the process, even my own script, how they rewrote it or what the mindset was.

So it's an experience I'm glad I had just to be, have an office at Seinfeld and be on set and stuff, but it was kind of like, I don't think I fit in here. It was like a Seinfeld episode. You go in and you want to pitch and then they just start making fun of you, the two of them. They would look at me like a freak, like, well, how do you buy your shirt? I can't picture. How do you function? What's the process?

How do you can't picture someone like you're buying a shirt. They would just look at me, like some weirdo, like, Jerry would say, you always hit the same mark. What are you doing? I don't know. But yeah, they listened, but they kind of looked at me like, this is a weirdo. Did it help your sales for my Seinfeld year when you were sued by Kenny Kramer? This was the real Kramer. And this was big news.

It was national news. And I know that it was dropped. You went to court and they, you out. Yes, they threw it up. Well, let me just say two things. First of all, if this was done today, he went to done it because he sued in L.A. and New York, and they have now in New York more of something called an anti-SLAPP law, which they have in L.A., and meaning if you could show, which is easier to show how frivolous this is, it's free speech, he'd get in trouble, meaning he'd have to

the expenses. So they didn't have it, but it was just a farce. This guy is famous. He's been on Judge Judy. He sues a lot of people. It's kind of, you know, it's very, but answering a question, yes, for a week or two, it brought attention to my Seinfeld year, and it helped one or two weeks because I think it was, yeah, I think so, yes. But it's something I wouldn't ask for, or it was just a little ridiculous. So it was just sort of like, no. And they threw it out because it's frivolous. They did throw it out.

Oh, yes. And then he tried to appeal based on, he had bad representation that his lawyer never saw Seinfeld, which doesn't work that way. I can't sue you because you have a book in the background that's anti-Semitic. I'm making up nonsense. And, you know, this is frivolous. And then, oh, I'm appealing because my lawyer wasn't good. No, you did a frivolous lawsuit with a ridiculous lawyer.

So, yes, it was, yeah. You know, one thing I learned is that when people, the people who go after you are the people that that's all they do or like the people like Larry David don't care what anyone writes about them they know nothing could hurt them you know what I mean it's just oh and I don't care when someone unless it was something

you know real scandalous says oh you're this or that so yeah I have to ask you in November of 1982 at Chase Stadium you were there when the Who played and it was the clash in the Who and David at Johansson Um, you, you were quoted as saying I was really terrified. We were like sardines. And this was Kurt Loder, who wrote a piece, um, in Rolling Stone and it got syndicated in newspapers.

Yeah, the Who had a thing with people stampeded. Yes. People were afraid at this concert. And it was your, your thing should be called. I ask things. No one else asks. So thanks to, which is great. Well, I just, it was such a, a scary thing to be at this. I mean, it was something like $16 tickets and it was like, I don't know how many people were in this place, but was so packed and scary. I mean, I don't, I don't find this stuff when I Google myself. How do you find these things? I just, I do. I'm Mark Malcolm. You're really good. But yeah, just to be there paying 16 bucks and you're there, that energy, but I'm scary at the same time. So I was reading reviews. My friend Norm, which is Audible, you wrote a piece about Norm MacDonald, who's

probably my favorite comedian, maybe of all time, one of a few. Unbelievably, you mean. You meet him in 1989 at an airport, correct? No, no, no, no, no. Actually, speaking, the Young Comedian special, so the night before, at the time, I don't know what clubs are like, I'm out of the loop now. It used to be a common courtesy. If you're going, the Young Comedient Special, it's a night show, you go to the improv, and you're allowed to, at a courtesy, because the people waiting would want the same courtesy for themselves to go up to try out your set because you're going on, you know, to do the thing.

So I remember I did my set and it was kind of a later crowd and Stevie Framstein from Toronto, a comedian, had just brought Norm from Toronto. They came together. They know each other from Canada. So it was Norm's first time at the improv. I didn't know he was. He was just standing there.

He was kind of like, wow, I can't believe I'm at the improv, you know. And Stevie's going, maybe he could do stronger jokes. I'm concerned. And I thought I did well. I thought I picked okay jokes. And I'm going to Norm going, they seemed okay, right? And he was kind of afraid to butt heads with Stevie, who was higher up for whatever reason. Norm was the new guy, never in L.A.

So he had just gotten off the plane from Canada and came right to the improv. What were your impressions of him the first time you met him or the first few times? He was nothing like he turned out to be as a norm as a friend or like intimidated to be there, didn't say anything. Like it was just, you just thought who's this quiet guy who just seemed intimidated and terrified? You know, later he'd say he could, you know, he's always couldn't believe. he always wanted to see the Hollywood Improv. And then he'd say, you go there and it's, you think every night it's prior and Carlin, and it was all these road hacks.

But so my first impression was nothing like he turned out to be like funny, a ballbuster, just always, just how he is, how he was on talk shows, just being kind of a, you know, like the famous thing with what's it called? chairman at a board like interrupting and taking over that's how kind of he was off stage and what are you doing there? Freddie, could you believe this guy?

And so my impression is nothing what he turned out to be. How did your relationship with him progress? Well, it was we hung out sometimes. Then he got, no, just at the clubs and

then he got SNL and he called once or twice and then when he got let go we had this weird relationship is what the book is about the Kind of the Audible my friend Norm just processing this weird

relationship where oh we'd hang out and play tennis and trivia and watch TV and movies and it was contentious like he was a bully in his ball-busting way

like try to break me down playing tennis taunt me and he just was a shitster and like to you know just cause stuff like oh embarrass me look freddie's hitting on a girl you have no shot with her or just you know just uh you know oh you're losing you know in tennis so just we played with artie lang tennis where he was taunting artie and he was mad artie a fat guy was beating him at tennis and so it got It got a little dramatic and, you know, argumentative, but it was like my, even though I was older, my annoying, ball-busting older brother, just because he was in a higher power position. But it was weird where we'd hang out, and you couldn't do anything in moderation.

We were young. We'd play tennis sometimes four hours, or I couldn't go home. let's play another Milborns or card game or let's watch one more movie, you know, with Laurie Joe's best friend and her place. And then I wouldn't see him sometimes for months, sometimes years. He just disappeared and then he'd come by, hang out, like no time had passed. So it was weird and it was very, I didn't, that's why I wrote the book, the audible processing this weird friendship, which the last I hung out,

with him is I toured with him for almost a year as his opening act, where at first it was great, and then it was kind of, oh, I don't need to do this anymore. So that's why, yeah, the book, I don't know if you've listened to it or, no, no apologies if you didn't, it wasn't a tell-all, he's a jerk. It was more a story of for me, what now? Like I was even eight, nine years ago, like where I'm at my midlife crisis. I've been at a midlife crisis or 20 years. It's what showbiz is. One of them after another, but what now?

I don't seem to be working like I used to. Oh, I have this opportunity open for Norm. Maybe he won't be like he used to because he respects me more. And then just what it was like touring with him when I had quit stand up, but thought, oh, this will be a fun thing to do. you know, I'm just, you know, just doing with Norm and there were a lot of laughs and just so it's more not, oh, a scandalous tell-all, it's more like a chapter in my life, like after having quit stand up for many years coming back and stuff like that.

You had no inkling, he was sick, correct? Not really. So like I mentioned in the audible, maybe I did, but I did. I didn't process it because, you know, we'd walk around San Diego, we would just walk the city, and so it's not like he didn't have energy and he would do sometimes two-hour sets. So I didn't think, oh, he has cancer because you don't associate that stuff with it, but there were signs, other signs, like sometimes he would not off just where he'd be in the hotel room after. or there was one time when we were in New York and he had a big like, you know, I have in my medicine like a week at a glance. He had a whole month. He was nervous. There wasn't a safe. Hold these for me. Keep them safe. I'm nervous. There's no, you know, safe. And I took a quick

look and it was 30 of these. Every day of the week had like 15 pills, it seems. So again, I didn't I kind of knew something's kind of not right. There was like when we were in, where was it, not Phoenix, Portland, weed's legal. So I went to a dispensary and he kept smoking. He goes, I need more weed because my hands hurt because I'm diabetic. And I said, Norm, I'm no doctor, but you don't have diabetes because he would eat. he'd have two milkshakes in a row or he'd have a bunch of root bear I go you would have a seizure so yes so that's the long-winded question where I didn't think it was that extent because

but I knew he was taking medicine and and there were other signs like twice I I introduced him after doing my set and he didn't come out for about 10 minutes, so I thought maybe stomach issues, but who knows, maybe he was throwing up. So, yeah. Wow. So complicated relationship with him. So you went on the Norm show on ABC, you played William. When you go on these shows, you don't have to audition, do you? I mean, they know. Actually, sometimes I did have to, and sometimes I don't have to. I don't have to. to in those days. You're a brother, thankfully, I didn't have to. Norm, I auditioned for. And then he goes, why'd they make you audition? I told them to have you. So I still had to audition.

So, but I had a lot of fun, yes. When you were doing more of the clubs back in the day, one or two of the strongest sets you ever saw a comedian doing a club. Who were they? Without a doubt, Gilbert Gottfried. Before he, you can't, you know, I'm from an era in Gilbert, too, where Slate, I started in 78, we didn't have video cameras where some of my strongest sets on Gilbert, you couldn't see. Gilbert was a genius, but he, and many people loved him, rightfully so, but they never really saw, they'd see this, ah, da, da, da, da, that guy or Hollywood squares, which is all great, but he would annihilate where, go on to, sometimes for an hour where I didn't want to do my stupid jokes. I felt depressed. Like,

I suck. I'm just so mediocre where, with out of doubt, and George Wallace to annihilate, but Gilbert Godfrey saw did some stuff where, you know, actually, it's so long ago that I think some SCTV sketches took from him where Woody Allen has taxed drive. Are you talking to me? but Gilbert would go, Tony Curtis talking to Gavin McLeod or, you know, Elmer Fudd is in Apocalypse now, Dahawa, you know, so he started that stuff. So he was amazing. It's an impressionist. He was the first to do Seinfeld, I think. You did Seinfeld? He did Seinfeld talking to David Brenner, hey, Jerry, oh, David, things like that. But he, I heard in his later years that he kind of was doing the same jokes, not really

writing more stuff, but he was insanely prolific in the late 70s and 80s. Yeah, he's great. I miss him. What was it like when you were, there was this legendary comedy club Pips in Brooklyn, and you would go and people like Billy Crystal before. he was Billy Crystal before he was famous in Richard Lewis. Was it clear that somebody like a Billy Crystal was on the path to stardom? Well, I saw him when I was 17 before that, but I thought he was a star because he was at Pips. That's what turned me on to stand-up. I didn't

know much about it. That was actually before the comedy boom in the New York area, the first paid gig you could get. So to me, Pips was like a dream because I went in. I was 17. with my older sister and her friends. There were no comedy nerds back then. I just knew whatever, Buddy Hackett, George Carlin, David Brenner. I didn't know much about stand-up. You know, now every stand-up has a podcast. They give every part of their life, find toilet paper, you know,

but you didn't really think of stand-ups. I remember Billy Crystal did a bit about season Nick tickets and his daughter. I remember, I don't know who he is, but he could make a living from doing what he did. And I started thinking about it. And Richard Lewis didn't even do his neurotic stuff back in 75 when I saw him. So Pips was like, I remember they had a menu. These are the people who started Pips, David Brenner, Rodney Dangerfield, Schilder and Mira. So it was a dream to do Pips, which turned out to be not a great place because the Brooklyn, I grew up in the Sad Night Fever,

welcome back, not artsy gentrified Brooklyn, we're kind of annoying bridge and tunnel people, not sophisticated. So yes. I'm glad you got to be at Pips and see it. It's glory days. You're on cameo.com with, you have over a thousand reviews, something like 60. Well, you know why? Okay, because you've been in everything. Well, no, during the pandemic, I felt like it was Tokyo Rose. You know who that is? Like entertaining the troops. You know, because during the bad, I mean, the real part of the pandemic, people would say, can you send my cousin to frontline worker? And I felt so bad for, so for a while, I felt bad charging people during the pandemic. I was charging $5, but I would do like 30 a day.

And it just kept me busy as making good money by charging it's a little. Now it's more. But yes, so it's not what it was, but it really soared during the pandemic. Yeah, I mean, that was just impressive. I saw that. I mean, dumb and dumber. I mean,

just so many things that you get recognized for just looking at all your work. Unbelievable. I'm really glad we got to do this. The last time, well, not the last time,

but I remember when we recorded the Carson podcast, you had just been on the phone with your mom, and your mom said, what do you possibly have to contribute about Johnny Carson or something to that effect?

Like, this is where I get my love to the same. Yes. You were on Carson. It was a big deal. Yeah, sadly, I'm getting better at not negating things because I just don't want to blame my mother. But, I mean, everything, it's jokes. Like, it's not a joke. As a teenager wanted to get a part-time job at Burger King.

She goes, yeah, they're waiting for you. Like, dream, you know, like that was an impossibility that I'd get a job at Burger King. How long did it take her to say that she was proud of you? And they acknowledge the fact that you, and this very tough business succeeded wildly. It's hard to say because she just had the mindset of, you know, my negative mindset. I'm not a regular, you know, like, all right, I did a Raymond, but then I won't be back, you know, for a year or two. So she just her mindset, as she'd call me up, what do you do during the day? Why are you home?

What's wrong with you? and I'm this weirdo that, you know, has always been a bachelor, not conventional, you know, what's wrong? Why'd you get a cat and not a girlfriend? There's something wrong with Freddie. So she just saw, she just would go for the negative, like one of my dreams was when I was on Handy Manny, a preschool show, I don't have it around here, a toy that, a talking toy that says what I say when you press it. and she's always negative. How much did you get for it? Always about money.

So I was just a little annoyed. I get five cents every time someone presses it. So bless her, she was pressing it. She goes, did you get the money? She was, Freddie, she always thought I was struggling because I lived in an apartment. You lived in a nice place. You had cats.

You had companionship. Yeah, but in her mind, she just, he's a schlep. He walks around, and they didn't have social. So answering when she was proud. she started to get a little bit proud when other people told her they knew who I was which when she moved into the retirement community like some knew me from the nanny

so it and then like someone they had a picture of me from Dumb and Dumber my father you know cut in frame pictures so some worker oh I know him so she never was proud I remember speaking of Pips, feeling very sad that there was a guy who was supposed to work there, but he got fired, and he wasn't good.

But he felt bad. So the Pips owner said, let him have five minutes. And he brought all his friends and his mother. And, of course, he did well because they were all there to see Bert. And I remember his mother saying, I mean, you know, Bert was always so shy. I'm so proud that he got up there. and I kind of almost cried. Like, it's after my mother, my mother was never proud that I was trying.

Well, look, and also you got to realize, you know, the history of comedy. In 1978, I quit college to be a comedian, and I was very depressed, very shy, not funny. It wasn't like a wise, like a Todd Glass, hey, whatever. I'm just using an example, like a jokester. I was very, very depressed. So she knew comedy is, like I said, Shecky Green, the cat's goals, hey. So I do have to say I could understand her not understanding it because back then they didn't have Facebook. Oh, you crush Fred and reading comments or whatever, social media.

And I could understand why it made no sense. She would see a friend of mine in the street. what's Freddy do? What's the truth? She couldn't believe I was going to the city every night trying to be a comedian. She thought, I don't know, maybe selling drugs. Johnny Carson validation, but I would talk to Richard Lewis and I talked to a lot of comedians and you have like Gary Shandling who had mom issues and Carson. It just seems like a theme with approval. Well, she, my mother had obviously her insecurities and she lived vicariously through me of the negative stuff like you're going to fail when i would be on comics or blithe she'd be in the other

room she could look like what if he fails so uh yes so she just uh just saw me just living a sad life in a shoebox apartment and and what do you do for money i don't understand so yes you should be proud so proud and it's just some people do not have the emotional tools to to show and be demonstrative. I know Letterman, with his mom said she was the least demonstrative, would not say the world, you know, stuff like that. But in terms of everything that you've done, I was just looking at your body of work,

and you're looking at just on YouTube and just everything. It's incredible, everything that you have done. And Norm McDonald is just such a celebrated comedian, and I'm really, really glad that you did this audible piece about. and my friend Norm, which is available now. And I was reading the reviews, by the way, of people that had purchased this and that absolutely loved it. And I know there's a really nice piece on crack.com that I believe they interviewed you when they talk about it. So, yeah, everybody, check that out. Fred Stoller.

It's so good seeing you again. Yes, thank you. Thanks again to Fred Stoller. Be sure to check out Fred Stoller's new substack. has done everything you can imagine in Late Night, sitcoms, and more, so check out his red and his substack. It's free. You're going to love it. Be sure to go to Apple Podcasts, please, and rate this podcast inside Late Night. Please, if you like the show, give us five stars. If you don't like us, that's fine too. But let us know, and please leave a review. I read everything.

Thank you for joining us, and we will see you real soon on Inside Late Night. And check out Latenighter.com for all your late night news. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.