Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Hugh Fink

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Hugh Fink joins Mark to discuss writing for Saturday Night Live, his sketches with Norm Macdonald as Larry King, his famous Britney Spears monologue, a sketch he wrote upsetting Sarah Jessica Parker, & his Letterman standup appearances. Official Website: www.hughfink.com Sign Up for Hugh’s Class: https://hughfink.com/classes/

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff, and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by latenighter.com. Today's guest is comedian writer Hugh Fink, who for seven years wrote for Saturday Night Live. Now it's time to go inside late night. Hugh Fing, thanks for talking with us. Sure, this will be fun. Yeah, it's been a while. I'm really, really excited. You know, I think a lot of people that know you're Saturday.

night live work. For me personally, and I've talked to other people, and maybe it's just comedy writers in general. The news and views with Larry King was one of the funniest sketches with Norm MacDonald. And I remember as a kid, because my parents would subscribe to USA Today, all of those, he would just do random sayings. And you told me it would just be, he basically would take press releases and just kind of cut and paste. You summed it up very well. I discovered his column in USA Today at the time, which, of course, was a different side of Larry King than people were used to seeing, right, because they knew him as the television radio host. But this is the most self-serving, narcissistic bullshit where my theory was that he was paid by publicists to promote their mediocre TV shows and movies and books. He also would just state things that were obvious and sort of pull people's heartstrings. I would say it was virtue signaling. So I decided to convert that into a sketch.

And the fun of it, Mark, was it's the essence of joke writing. It was just one-liners, one after another after another. And at the table read, when I take Norm MacDonald to it, we'd probably have like 25 jokes. But then we'd whittle them down as the week went on to what you saw on the air. Yeah, one was about the equator, the new appreciation for the equator. So it was the more I think about it, the more I appreciate the equator. Yeah, the thing is, is I remember reading this and reading the column and it'd be like,

Don Deloese, doesn't Dom Deloese have the best studio audience on candid camera out of any other show? Thank you. So the equivalent of the one you said was I wrote, Tiger Woods has got to be one of the seven or eight best black golfers in history. Yeah. And what about Robert Eurek? I just said that he's one of the greatest figures of the 20th century. I think we called John Laracette. Yeah.

The thing with Norm is, is that if you could get him to commit to something, he was amazing. He would always, it was either 100% or he wouldn't try, I would feel like on camera. But when he did commit like a Quentin Tarantino or he played Larry King or Dave Letterman, I mean, you got a home run, an amazing performance. Right. And in this case, because Norm and I knew each other from the L.A. stand-up scene, we were friends and trust each other. And I was convinced that Norm would do what I still consider to be the greatest Larry King impression ever. But I had to slightly convince him to do it. I go, Norm, I'm telling you,

you don't know how good your Larry King is going to be. And he trusted being, of course, he completely nailed it. Yeah. And it was one of those things where I heard later, and I've heard you talk about it, but I want to get a little bit more inside if you know things, is that Johnny Carson was a huge fan of the sketch. And he, I heard this from a bunch of people. And Norm being Norm and I love Norm, told the story two different ways. One is that Johnny Carson asked to meet him and he did go. And the other one is he at Johnny Carson asked him to meet up with him and he did not go. I do not know which one. This was after Carson's death, which way it went, but that Carson wanted to meet him, which I wouldn't be surprised about

and that he, I could see that happening. But do you know, have any insight? And to that question, and I don't. All I can confirm to you is Norm did more than once meet Larry King and do his Larry King impression of Larry. So you knew that. Yeah, I talked to Larry about that. He thought if it was funny or he like at least pretended, but it was one of those. It was funny, funny sketch. Now, is the first thing that you got on other than Spade in America, which we'll talk about in a little bit, was the David Schwimmer monologue? Is that the first thing you got on? That was show three. Yes, you could be right. So let me think about this, because I did all the Spade in America's, that first fall, my first fall on the show, then Schwimmer

hosted in the winter of the spring season, right? I'm so sorry. I'm so nerdy about this. This was the third episode. When Mariel Hemingway and Pleu's Traveler, second was Chevy Chase and Lisa Loeb third was David Swimmer and Natalie Merchant. Oh, Swimmer was really that he was that early. Wow.

He was. There's a problem with me that I know all this, but. Oh, my God. well, then you're right. I'd say that's accurate, that that would have been my sketch other than Spade in America. Why possibly, I'm not going to mention the person, if you want to, you can, that there would be somebody near the top, not Lauren, that did not want you to write sketches. They wanted you to just focus on Spade and America, because you had a skill set where you could do it, and I would think you would want as many options as possible. Well, thank you. The truth is, it's not a matter of naming names. It's that I think that Lauren and the show itself felt like I was Spade's guy. There were all these other writers being

paid to do weekend update and sketches, and that they didn't know my work really, other than Spade saying that I would be really good for the show. But I was confident and aggressive enough to want to show them, I can do more than write for Spade. Smart thing, because you have Sebastiano, Frank Sebastiano, and Ross Abrasch over doing update. And it wasn't, there weren't the amount of writers that there are now on SNL. I mean, it was definitely more than I believe when Jim Downey might have been there. And it increased a lot. But I would just be like, and I know Fred Wolfe put in a good word for you too, I would just be like, I want as many options as possible. So you do the Schwimmer

monologue. And I was there for the dress rehearsal. I remember this very well. It was so surreal. So can you talk me through it? And I know you had to get on the phone with some of these people to try to talk. These people, right. That's right. And by the way, I had already worked with Gary Coleman. So that was an easy one. But I came up with the concept. You're familiar with the concept. I wanted to pick the most sort of iconic TV stars from yesteryear sitcom stars, probably. Now, the one joke that didn't make it, Mark, only because he declined but would have killed, I had Tom Brokaw cast in that monologue as himself. So after the joke would be like after seeing Barry Williams from the Brady Bunch and Gary Coleman and all these other sitcom people,

in the middle of it, Tom Brokaw was going to stand up. Instead of hearing the theme song to a sitcom, you would just hear the NBC News, which was but um bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum and tom brook how would have come on stage and that would have killed but we asked tom broke how to do it and he respectfully declined even though he thought it was funny and then Gabe Kaplan I know you're on the phone with trying to talk him into it I'd written for Gabe for his radio show sports nuts in L.A so we were friendly Gabe wouldn't do it only because his daughter was like graduating she had some school event so he just didn't want to come to out to come to New York.

He said, I may regret this because this could be hilarious. Can you explain the premise for the listeners? You have David Schwimmer coming out. And friends, this was only like the second year of friends. It wasn't what it was, but there was this buzz. I mean, there was unmistakingly... Right.

So the premise, Mark, was that there had been a Friends monologue, I feel like, or a Cheers monologue maybe, someone from Cheers, where they came out on stage and they played the Cheers theme and all the cheers cast. It was very schmaltzy and kind of cute. I wanted to mock that and undermine it. So my premise was Schwimmer would come out and say very head over heels like,

hey, you know, it's time like this when you could use a friend or two to help you. So the expectation, right, is that all the cast of friends is going to come out. So I tricked the audience. I did have Lisa Kudrow and Jennifer Aniston planted in the crowd, and they played the friend's theme and they came out and they said I'll be there for you David just like the lyrics of the friend song

I'll be there for you now anyone would assume the next it would be Matthew Perry or Matt LeBlanc instead I completely undermined it and started having random past stars from 70s sitcoms come out so

J.J. Jimmy Walker from the Good Times Barry Williams from Brady Bunch so I think the fun of it was oh wow this is going in a totally different direction and who's the next star we're going to see we have to talk about and I know some people know this people didn't want to host the show that season they did not the musical guest I mean that shows all about famous people hanging out backstage and they're really um I mean I just think I've said that this I was at show number one Martha Stewart was there with Bob Morden second show I think John Stewart was hanging out backstage and I think that that's it. And then... And remember, Mark, that the season debut, which was my first show, the musical guest was Prince, but then he canceled four days before because he was in a fight with his record label. And who replaced Prince, Blues Traveler?

Yeah, I remember that. How do you go from Prince to Blues Traveler? You have two days. They were pretty hot at the time. That's what they lacked the hip factor, right? That was what was lacking. I want to jump out. I want to go all over the place, but one thing I wanted to ask you about is you were one of the rare. people that got a sketch on when Norm came back to host the show. He had got hired and he came back and he brought in Fred Wolf, Andy Breckman, Sam Simon, Robert Smigel contributed some. But for the most part, I mean, I think Norm didn't appear in any other writers because I think Tina wrote a sketch that was like Anna went to her or something or like, I forget who it was, but it was Helen

Gurley Brown, I think. And Norm wasn't in that sketch. But you were, I think, the only one that got him in something. It could be off on that. That's flattering. I mean, Norm did love my Larry King's, and I think Norms felt it would be fun to revive it. Arguably, Mark, I think that was the funniest Larry Kings I ever wrote for him, because here's the difference. The others had all been pre-taped. I didn't know that. That one was a live sketch, and we did two of them. I think one was on, you know, in the first three or four, then after a weekend update. And so Norm was live, live doing Larry King. So funny. Do you think Andy Breckman, and there's any truth in what he said in the book, the Tom Shales, Jim, Andrew Miller book that when he came in with Sam Simon and with Fred Wolf, that they didn't feel welcome by the other writers. Could you see that? I don't recall it, but I'll tell you this, I would believe it, because the show is so competitive and everyone so stressed out, the last thing writers wanted were more writers coming as guest writers. And

I can definitely say that that was the vibe of any week when a guest writer would come. And listen, during my tenure, Stephen Colbert was a guest writer for two weeks. And it's not like people were, yay, we got Stephen Colbert. So people are just very into their own work and not wanting to have more competition. What are your memories, what stands out, especially backstage with Norm's monologue with, Lauren did not want him to do it. the host has a lot of say when he basically says, I haven't gotten any funnier. The show's just gotten really bad. So I haven't gotten any funnier. But what stands out to you backstage at all about anything? What I recall is that I admired Norm for doing that monologue. And I really did

respect Lorne Michaels for allowing him to do it. It showed how Lauren is such a comedy purist that it may not be his taste, and it may not be something that he likes, but he respected Norm. He respects the institution of the show. So the fact that he let Norm come out and do it, I thought was great. And I did think the monologue was hilarious. Some writer, by the way, I do remember some of my colleagues going, that's not cool. He shouldn't be crapping on our show that way. I know two of them.

I'm not going to mention who they are, but people that were really bothered by it. But I did want to ask you about the boo-in, which did not come from the studio audience when Norm says the show hasn't gotten any, I've just got, the show's just gotten really bad. There's boo-in that comes. And it's not from the studio audience. I have been told, Norm said it was from some writers. Do you have any, I don't want you to name names, but do you know if that did, in fact, come from the writers?

Because it didn't come from the audience. No, until you bringing it up right now, I didn't even recall that there were booze. There were booze, and it wasn't from the audience. I will tell you the loudest booze I've ever heard that, and it did involve Norm McDonnell. You may not have heard this story. Oh, I do know. This is the Woody Allen thing? Yes.

Please continue. So Frank Sebastiano, brilliant joke writer, wrote a joke for Norm where he said, this week in the news, pop culture news, Woody Allen has a new girlfriend. And then they were cutting to a photo of the infamous girl in Cambodia or Vietnam fleeing napalm bomb. It's one of the most infamous photos in American history. So I was at, it wasn't dressed rehearsal. It was at the tech rehearsal at like 6 o'clock p.m. Where we just go through everything.

And what happened is Norm did that joke. And immediately an employee of SNO who worked as like a tech director or something, he stormed out of his own booth and came down to the floor and said, I'm a Vietnam vet. that is disgraceful that you would do that. You've got to remove that joke right now, and I witnessed that confrontation. Well, Norm did not, listen,

and he insisted on doing the joke. We go to dress rehearsal. He does the joke. I guess you've seen the tape or you were there. It felt like a Yankee Stadium booing a player. It was resounding like, oh! And booze. And then the joke was cut. Norm didn't do it all the year. I was told by another writer that there were multiple female cast members that said that they wouldn't do the show if that joke got on.

Wow. Again, that I never heard before. And curiously, I don't know why that joke, like to me, it wouldn't offend women any more than men. You know what I mean? Because it was more just, it was a child and it's an infamous photo. But the fact. is, Frank wrote it. Norm loved the joke. He did it. But Norm is an entertainer. And I think Norm recognized that it was not worth doing that joke to get all booze. And Norm gave Lauren all the credit. And he did a print interview and said, Lauren was absolutely right. He warned me not to do it. And he was, you know, it's one of those things where, like, people that grew up in Indiana, and it's like, how was your week last week, Hugh? And, you know, other people are talking about going to barbecuing with their family. And you're like, I'm talking to J-Lo, trying to convince her

not to phone Madonna to try to get her permission for this sketch. I remember you telling me about this. What happened? You've done your homework, Mark. I like that. Yeah, I was so bummed about that because that sketch would have crushed of J-Lo playing Madonna. And I remember the album, was it called Music that had come out. It was Madonna's new album.

It was not, I think it might have been it, I'm not sure. Yeah, and I had J-Lo singing a song about, I think Madonna had just given birth to her on Rocco, or one of her kids. But I had J-Lo playing her, and I met with Benny Medina, the famous manager at the time. And he was like, J-Lo, you shouldn't do this. It's just going to cause an eye being, you know, the kind of like, I disagree. She should do it because it's going to get big laughs and it will show that she's not afraid to make fun of celebrities.

So I convinced J-Lo to do it. Well, I left two days later, I think, to go produce the S-B Awards, which Lauren had me do. So I wasn't there for her decision to change her mind and say she refused to do it. She would have to do it at dress. She like before that she. No, no, never made it. No. She cut it like on a Thursday. And didn't she call Madonna to try to like run like maybe I keep this part or not keep this part? I think she did do that. I think you're right. Which of course, that's a bad solution because a celebrity's never going to go. Yeah, I love it. Do it. Yeah. Is that the same week, if you recall that the XFL preempted Saturday Night Live for like 40 minutes, which I don't think

ever happened on a live show. Wow. That, yeah, I couldn't believe it. They just came in in the middle of, yeah, Jennifer Lopez hosting the show. That could be, but because I was in, I think I was in Las Vegas producing the SPie Awards. I wasn't there for that show, live. Yeah, she was a really good host. A good host. You know, I wrote her monologue that night. Remember, it was the one where she wore her, that infamous Versace dress. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then she was doing her monologue. Then she ripped off her fake dress to reveal the Versace dress. You were so good with the monologues. I mean, Britney Spears came in, and that famous moment, that famous monologue was you, right? Can you explain that set up the premise? Yeah, the premise was there were two things Brittany had been mocked for

when she hosted S&L before she hosted. One was that her boobs were fake. That was the rumor. And the other huge rumor was that she lip synced and didn't sing. So when I met with Brittany in my office, I said, Brittany, if it's okay, I want to have a monologue where we tackle those two rumors and make fun of them. And she's like, yeah, be my guess. That's right. So the joke was that we had that remote controlled device built by her boobs where they would start swirling around as she was talking, which was hilarious and implied that they were fake. And in terms of Lip syncing. Do you remember this mark in the middle of her monologue while she's delivering it? Her lip sinks, it became clear that she was lip syncing the monologue itself. That killed. And it was just a great way for her to start the show, showing that she makes fun of herself. Yeah, no, it absolutely killed. There's certain hosts, I know that you've done interviews. I've heard you in interviews talk about where, you know, some people are a game for anything. And it's just like, let's do this. And then there's other people like Nathan Lane. I don't. heard you do an interview about. And I, you know, to his credit, he was discreet about it. You

didn't know him. Did you? It was something. I never met him in my life. It's a sketch at read through it when he's playing Charles Nelson Riley for, is it in the actor's studio sketch with James Lipton. Yeah. Just so you know, it never got that far mark. I pitched it to him Monday night. Oh. When the beats with the writers. I just wanted to, I was so excited. I thought he'd go, oh, that's great. Instead, he did the opposite. And he, he's, and keep in mind, this was, at a time when Nathan Lane had not come out of the closet yet. And I think I really hit a nerve pitching him playing a flamboyantly gay guy. And he didn't like that.

Now, in fairness, a few years later, he brought me on stage at the Montreal Comedy Festival and couldn't have been warmer and nicer. But he was definitely pissed at me for pitching that Charles Nelson Riley sketch. And I'm surprised that he actually, I mean, he was polite about a bit terse, but he actually did come up to you because I would think a lot of hosts just wouldn't say something. That's right.

I think it just, for whatever reason, it really unnerved him. There's another guy that came up to you that hosted a bunch of times. He was one of the greatest ever, which was Alec Baldwin, and you wrote a little monologue about him,

and he was getting knocked by some of the New York newspapers for he had gained some weight and what happened. Right. So my premise was that Alex, as you say, had hosted many times, would come out and say, hey folks, I thought tonight, instead of doing an original monologue, I would just show you highlights of my past S&L monologues.

Let's go to the clips. Well, the joke was that I would have fake clips where every other appearance he did, he'd be wearing a fat suit. So he'd appear obese in half the clips from yesteryear. So that's what I put on paper. He read it Tuesday night. The table reads the next day. When I show up to the office, the SNL receptionist said, Alec Baldwin is in your office waiting for you.

He's pretty mad. So I quickly thought, okay, I know where this is going. So I walked in my own office mark, and Alec is there. And he goes, hey, Hugh, let me ask you something. Do you think I'm fat? I said, do I think you're fat? No, I don't think you're fat. Why'd you write this monologue?

You obviously think I'm fat. And just like a teenage girl, I had to sweetly tell him, Alec, you're a good looking guy. Of course you're not fat. You're handsome. Women love you. You're not fat. And I was just having fun with the fact that maybe you have occasionally gained a little weight, but it's all a cartoon.

So I basically had to talk him off the ledge because he was ready to like throw down if I had been like, screw you, you're fat. But I talked them down. he sort of apologized and to his credit mark he did read the sketch at the table read that afternoon and it got big laughs and it was cut so he was professional enough to read it and let me get my laughs but it did not get chosen as the monologue Rosie O'Donnell when she came in I heard I think it might have been I don't want to say I think it was Molly Shannon actually did an interview saying that Rosie only wanted to do sketch with the women she was very is that

true she did the cheerleaders with with the will there only she did it's honestly kind of ringing a bell and i'm lucky because i had good relationships with people like rosy because of my stand-up career right so she liked me and trusted me now she had me write her something that never aired simply because it didn't go over well at dress she wanted to play rosan rosanna dana oh wow but with the twist we came up with us that it would be Roseanne Rodan Dara's daughter, so who had a different name, but talked the exact same way. So I had to write it because Rosie wanted me to, and it went to dress rehearsal at Weekend Update, didn't do well. And so it was cut. Yeah, I think she did two sketches with, one with Will, the cheerleaders, and one with Mary Catherine Gallagher, but I think

everything else was the ladies, and Penny Marshall was around that. But yeah, I wasn't when Steve O'Semey was there the first time I thought it was like one of the funniest shows Has he been there since then? Well, you say the first time. I thought that was the only time. I think he's done it twice, but the first one when he came in,

I thought it was like one, a phenomenal show. Who wrote the Mad Hatter sketch? John Hurt was in that? I don't know if you remember that. I don't, but you know I wrote his monologue. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a really strong show the whole thing.

I remember the job interview. His monologue, remember the premise was, Hey, everybody. I play a lot of bad guys and weirdos, but a lot of these didn't know this. I come from the groundlings. I used to do improv, which, of course, was complete. No, he's a stand-up, but yeah. And then the joke was, every single thing he came up with on the fly involved murder and violence. Playing with his character. The sketch wouldn't air that just made me laugh, and I couldn't stop with Hanukah hymns. Now, this sketch was Alec Baldwin, and it was one of these sketches where Lauren gave you an order. He basically said, what are you doing with this at readthrough? And he was upset, but you went

with your instinct. And I heard Will Ferrell defended you. No, let's do it this way. What was the premise? Why was Lauren upset? And how did it actually wind up being your... That's a great question. And I want to add to that, Mark, that I use the sketch, Hanukkah Hems, you're talking about for my advanced TV writing class at Harvard University. And I, we show. it as part of my curriculum. So here's the premise. The premise was that unlike Christmas songs, all Hanukkah songs are depressing and boring with that sort of ancient Hebraic melody wailing that's so sad. So it's a commercial for Hanukkah hymns, as if these are great songs. You may not know this, Mark, but when I first wrote it, Vince Vaughn, it was

the host. And it killed, it killed at dress rehearsal. But Lorne decided that the Christmas show was two weeks later, because Vince was there for the Thanksgiving show. So Lauren said, Hugh, I want you to wait for a few weeks. We've got Alec coming. He'll be great. So I said, fine. So Alec comes two weeks later, the exact same sketch, I don't change a word. Alex's really funny in it.

We do it. And then I think like Friday night, not the table read, but after the table read, Lauren calls me in his office, and he tells me what kind of what you were saying is, Hugh, you've got this wrong. You need to have all the people in the sketch smiling and looking happy because that will be funnier when you play that against how depressing and sad the songs are. And my argument, Mark, was no, what helps the joke is that everyone in the entire sketch looks miserable. They're all wearing black, like downtrodden, Hasidic Jews. they're miserable there's a little kid in the sketch

I wanted a little kid to just be stoic and not smiling and Lauren said no you're wrong you need to tell the cast that they all need to smile so I tell all the cast this is from Lauren and as you said Will Ferrell and other people like no that is so wrong Hugh you're right it's funnier if we don't smile if you go back Mark and watch the sketch now

you'll see that there's probably like eight people in the final shot singing. Six of them are doing what I said. They're not smiling. The only two people who are smiling are Sherry O'Terry and the five-year-old girl who I had to cast as an extra. So I'm happy that most of the cast

followed my instructions instead of Lawrence. You wrote a sketch. I don't know how many people are going to know who this person is, but Mark Russell was this political, you know, he would play the piano famous on PBS. And you did this, I think, with Mark McKinney

maybe, played Mark Russell. And I know Adam McKay was in the audience. Adam McKay and me, right? McKay and I are together, yes. And basically, your take was that this guy can just get laughs saying Ross Perra's name in different, just different ways, that there wasn't

much. Yeah, my promise was that he does stupid rhymes, elementary rhymes. Yeah, that's how he gets his stuff. You never heard from him or any. I'm sure he actually liked getting the attention. I mean, he probably did. I mean, when you said, have I ever heard from someone,

I must tell you that the sketch that I heard something loud and clear that had ramifications of us and I was, my sketch mocking sex in the city when Jennifer Aniston hosted. And Jennifer Aniston did a brilliant impression of Sarah Jessica Parker. However, we had prosthetics build her a gigantic nose. And when Sarah Jessica Parker saw our sketch and it aired, she was so angry and hurt. She called HBO and said, I want you to deny S&L any request for using clips from HBO, any graphics, logos. And by the way, HBO relented and did what she said.

For a few months, Saturday Night Live could not get use of any HBO footage because of my sketch. How did that not get leaked to the media? That's pretty amazing. Now it would be. You're right. It was a different time. So it's like pre-social media. There's not as many gossip rags about Hollywood.

Had that happen now, it definitely would have made news. I was so proud of the sketch and Jennifer Aniston was hilarious playing Sarah Jessica. You did a commercial parody. I think people really forget when they're looking back at Saturday Night Live History with Tracy Morgan. How long it took him? I really do feel like if he came along maybe last year or the year before he, they were really giving only people like a year. It took him at least, I would say, two seasons for the audience. At least two seasons, right.

And the sketch, I did write his first appearance on the air, which was Caribbean essence bath oil. That's what I was going to ask about. Anna Gass Dyer did an interview a long time ago. I believe it was honest. I'm not going to mention who, but there was another cast member that was not, I guess, happy about doing that. because it didn't have a lot on. Were you aware of that? Or is it one of those things like back then, you know,

some of the ladies might have felt like they had to do it and they just maybe just like didn't speak up? I mean, I was aware of this, that it obviously required the men and women to be wearing like nude suits, as they're called. Yeah, Will Ferrell did it. And I know Anna would do that with Martha Stewart. I remember that I think maybe,

because it was Molly, Shannon, Sherry O'Therry, and Anna Gusty are in my sketch. I think that Sherry had, express some misgivings about do I really have to do this. And I was respectful. I'm just like, well, I'm hoping you'll want to do it because you're not actually nude. It makes you look like you're nude. And we're going to shoot it on the set with a movie director. And it was all very professional. But so it wouldn't shock me to hear that maybe a cast member or two wasn't crazy about it. It got over very well. I feel like for Tracy, that. And then maybe when he was doing

the Sprite thing ordering Lauren around it just the progression Dominican Joe I remember Dominican Joe when I was going to college getting protested by somebody at right now column of NYU and though what was it the what you went to NYU Washington Square News or whatever somebody wrote an op-ed or something oh really that complaining did you know that I wrote the original Brian fellows but he wasn't he didn't work at a zoo I didn't know that I thought that was Tim Hurley it's correct well here's what happened I I worked with Tracy on the Brian Fellows character, and that was the name of the character, Brian Fellows. He was not a zookeeper. He was a sports commentator. And the joke was he knew

nothing about sports and seemed like he was gay. And that was the premise. And we did it as a weekend update piece where he would just talk about sports in a really ignorant, stupid way, but his name was Brian Fellows. So it didn't go over that well. But Tim Hurley, being a talented writer, to me a few weeks later and said, Hugh, only with your permission, can I take that Brian fellow sports guy that you did with Tracy and do something else with it? I have an idea. And of course, I respect Tim Hurley. He was very kind to ask me. I said, sure. So Tim took it and went with it. That sounds incredible. And I think Tishon Shannon then took maybe over after Tim Hurley. I could be off on that. Can you tell the story about Tim Hurley,

casting you as an elf and a sketch. And it is one of those things. When you are a writer on that show, I mean, it is your baby. And you are sometimes, you know, Lauren Michaels has notes and sometimes there's going to be disagreements. But you're dressed as an elf and what happens? My recollection is that I'm dressed as an elf for Tim Hurley He's leprechaun sketch.

That Sting, Sting was the host. And I had at least a sketch or two on the same show as a writer. So, of course, I'm dressed as a leprechaun, but I'm also having to assert myself as a writer-producer of my own sketches. So I'm underneath the bleachers with Lauren watching my monologue with Sting that I wrote. And Lauren and I are starting to argue, as we often did over how this should be done. And it just looks at me and says something like, you must be proud in that costume. It's, of course, so humiliating. Like, yeah, I'm wearing the fucking costume because I'm on your show and one of your writers cast me.

I didn't show up to work dressed as a leprechaun. It's not Halloween. And then didn't, wasn't there something on the intercom being like, you think to set? And Lauren's like, you have to go now or something. And he goes, I guess you're little, your little performance, they're calling you. Right. It's like, Lauren, you're the boss. If you don't want me playing the leprechaun, I think.

you have the power to say don't be a leprecha. Speaking of that, what was that like putting in such a crowd pleaser to the audience, which was Mr. Peepers, and it being a sketch that Lauren just, for whatever reason, it wasn't his thing. I mean, for comedians, he thought it was hacky. Every week he will put stuff on that is not his taste because he knows the audience will like it. What is your instinct on why Lauren did put that in so often, just did the audience and that just? Yeah, I think you said it is, It was a crowd play. Listen, Stephen Spielberg told Chris Catan it was his favorite sketch at the time that he would watch it. John Stewart told me it was brilliant. John said, just it's so creepy and weird. With that said, there were plenty of great comedy people who hated Mr. Peepers and thought it was hack and thought it was stupid. I'm a hired gun at Saturday Night Live. I'm being paid as a writer. Katan came to me with the idea because it was a character that he had from the groundlings. And I just went with him.

and came up with sort of a template that would work to do a bunch of times and it did work well. But I think that Lauren, this is sort of a funny aspect of Lauren, is that when he wants to like get your goat or just demoralize you, he can use any

anything in his arsenal to do it. So in this case, yeah, he probably wasn't a huge fan of Peepers, but he would just, it was sort of a love-hate thing. He recognized that the audiences really liked it, but he also thought that it was probably infantile and adolescent, which in some ways it was. So, yeah, that would

explain it. It read through, there were certain sketches. I was just wondering after they did a few times, would they get genuine laughs at the table? Like, Mango, the eighth time they do Mango, because you know what's going to happen. Something like a goat boy. Is it, I mean, I know the audience likes it and it gets on, but is it really doing well at the table normally? It's the law diminishing returns, Mark. So by the eighth time, you're seeing a mango or a cheerleaders or a good boy, generally the laughs are getting less and less. And it's, what's unfortunate is for the guest hosts, if they're closely paying attention to laughs, they might think it reflects on the writing or a prediction of like, oh, this sketch is going to bomb. Obviously, that's not true when you're

dealing with a Mary Catherine Gallagher or something like that. But yeah, writers in a good are fickle and judgmental, and the more they hear the same premise or sketch being done, the less they're going to laugh, for sure. I have said this before, but in Will Ferrell's defense, Molly Shannon, doing those characters, I saw them speak, and they were talking, Will Ferrell was saying Scott Wolf was their hosting that week, and he wanted to do cheerleaders, and he did not want to do it. I remember that. And you have a host who comes in who basically just has so much sway, and it's like, I guess

we're doing the cheerleaders. I totally remember that. And by the way, Mark, yet again, I wrote Scott Wolf's monologue that I was proud of. Do you remember it? Oh, gosh. I'm so, I'm not Arthur Meyer Wood, who's a former Fallon writer who knows everything. I'm blanking on it. Can you please?

Sure. So remember, he was from New Jersey. So the premise was he just came out and said, I'm from New Jersey. And immediately he was accosted by cast members as Jersey idiots in the audience, standing up like Jim Brewer, going, Jersey, Cherry O' Terry is wearing a Bon Jovi, you know, cut off t-shirt. So it became just animalistic jersey people taking over his monologue, not shutting up.

And that was it. That's really funny. You were one of the people that helped Brewer. I know it's public now. I don't know how many people listening do know this, but I think in the history of the show, Brewer was Jim was the only one that was forced upon by NBC. Lauren didn't want Jim Brewer. It was a year where they were doing transitions and Don all.

and this other gentleman had a lot of pull. Did you know as a cast and writers? It seemed like Steve Corrin, I've said this before, saved him with Joe Pesci, which happened around Christmas. And that like solidified him. Did you guys, did you know that going in? I did know that. In fact, I know that my friend Dana Gould, the comedian. Oh yeah. He auditioned for SNL. He should have gotten it, maybe. It was between him and Brewer to get that cast spot. Oh, my goodness. And then NBC was very much. And Lauren gave Brewer one sketch at the premiere and it got cut. So he had nothing other than he was an extra in the first, the cold open.

And he said hi to Mariel Hemingway. And it was just, it took him a while. The other thing I want to plug Brewer that I thought was great was his heavy metal character, right? And I did the heavy metal news for him. Yeah, that did very well. It did very well. That always kept. And so I like working with Jim Brewer.

But he was definitely more physical and silly than a lot of SNL. humor, no doubt. What was it like when you played Carnegie Hall and you have the violin and you're opening for John Stewart and he has to follow you because I know you killed? I thank you. Truly, Mark, truly one of the most magnificent moments of my career. Because if you think about it, I was a trained classical violinist, not good enough to be a professional, but a very good amateur. And I'd studied for years and I know classical music. It never in my wildest dreams occurred to me, I would one day be standing alone on Carnegie Hall stage getting to play my violin. But it happened because my stand-up got really good, and I used violin as part of my act.

So when John Stewart and his manager, Jim Dixon, were kind enough to say, we want you to open for him at Carnegie Hall, I was like, this is a dream come true. But it was better than the dream because it was a packed audience. My parents flew in from Indiana. Tina Faye and Rachel Dratch were in the audience. And lo and behold, Mark, my friend, the most accomplished violinist in the world, maybe Joshua Bell. Oh, yeah. He would on Carson.

I mean, he was a huge deal. Josh came to my show and hung with me. So that was such a cool night. It was part of the Toyota Comedy Festival. I remember it very, very well. And I remember seeing you on the A&E show doing the Henny Youngman. getting older and that's amazing you got to do that. Are you the only, to your knowledge, are you the only one in Letterman history standup that Dave would make you do the same joke every

time you went on? Because he loved it so much. He loved it so much. I mean, I would like to think that's true. And my final appearance on Letterman, just so you know the facts, I didn't get a request to do it, but I decided I would do a callback to it, even though the audience would have no clue what I was doing. So in the middle of my stand-up, I did the bit, waited for the laugh, and went, come on, Bobby. I looked over at Dave, and he busted up laughing. That's amazing to get Dave. Yeah, I wonder, I talked at maybe I'd be Brill or something, but just the fact that Dave, and you, I mean, I know somebody that knows Brian Regan.

I've met him before, but Brian Regan basically, people were like, what's the letterman like? I have no idea. Is that basically with you? I mean, you don't. No, I had a different relationship because I'm from, I'm the only stand up from Dave's hometown. Oh, wow. makes sense. So Dave was so warm to me and talking about Indianapolis and wanted to know what neighborhood I grew up in. And so I had a very unusual rapport with him, but even other people

much more famous told me that when they'd go on the show, they wouldn't get anything. Oh, it was routine. I mean, it was people that would go in. And I get it because Dave Letterman took what Johnny did, which is you don't see anybody beforehand. If you can help it, save the energy for when it's on. Johnny occasionally would see people in makeup or if it was like a letterman or somebody who was close to a Rickles come by. But yeah, that was for people that were like, I get to meet Dave, it's like you're on stage and that's the only time you're going to see that guy.

In terms of, I know this wasn't the best experience, but you were there from the launch, which was Craig Ferguson, the late late show. What happened? I mean, I know that from people that were there, they were not. And I'm not talking about Peter LaSalle, I became friends with. I'm just talking about some of the people that were there. It just didn't seem, at least when you were there, it just didn't gel a little bit, maybe. Well, so what I would tell you, Mark, is my experience in some ways was really fun and not unpleasant. I was his first

head writer, but the issue was when I got the job writing for Craig, I had already sold the show show my series, starting David Spade. So I was waiting for the series to be greenlit, knowing that as soon as my series was greenlit, I was bailing. So after six months at Ferguson, they liked me. They wanted to renew my contract. That's when I got the word that showby show was going to officially go on the air. So I had to quit. And that did not go over well with Craig or LaSalle because they felt like they were, you know, building consistency. Now, to address what you said creatively, I think the problem at the show was Craig is like any of these hosts, very controlling creatively. He ultimately didn't really respect writers. If you could

give Craig Ferguson a 90-minute show where it's just him talking to camera, he would do it, believe me. He didn't really feel like he needed sketches or jokes. So for him, it was sort of an inconvenience to have to deal with writers. So it was a constant battle of him shooting down ideas that were being pitched by writers. If you recall, he got rid of a traditional monologue and just started telling stories. So anything that Craig could do

that would allow him to be in control of the content, that's what he preferred. And the ultimate example to tell you is, I instructed the writers. I said, guys, he's Benny Hill. He just wants to put on wigs and do weird accents and step on punchlines. And I think that that's a really accurate analysis

of what Craig liked to do on his show. Yeah, the show definitely involved. I had heard this and tell me if I have this, right? I might not. Is that there was a writer when you were there, Lori Nassau, that she did some comedy pieces at Ferguson. And I don't know if any, did any of them get on? Pieces at Ferguson or at SNL.

I thought that they were at Ferguson. Do you not? Here's the story. Lori and I worked at Saturday Night Live she was there three years I was there seven years we were friends when I took over Ferguson

I decided he's a good guy to do some sketches if it's the right sketch so Lori came up with this concept that I helped her with called Fiona the Scottish stalker where she did an impeccable

Scottish accent I would honestly mark compared to baby reindeer if you know that's serious Lori just is a second city alum, so she has that the parliament. It was sort of like a crazy, over-sexual stalker. Her tagline was, Craig, I will not be ignored, like really creepy. Ferguson loved it, Mark.

He loved it because he said he almost thought that she was from Scotland. Her performance was so good. So we would do this Fiona the Scottish stalker sketch. We probably did it five times, and it killed. but I think what happened is anytime someone started getting as bigger laughs as Craig it was time for them to leave with the show

Carson was the same way with sketches I mean it is one of the thing when your name is on that show I mean Jack Benny definitely had a different approach right maybe because he's Jack Benny and Conan had it Conan was fine allowing people to get big laughs and sketches but most hosts aren't

so tell me about teaching I know you're doing something with Harvard Yeah. So during COVID, as you're well aware, we couldn't write or produce television or do stand-up. So I'm like, what can I do creatively? So at first I started teaching my own online TV sketch classes, but they were successful. That led to offers to now I teach advanced television sketch writing at Harvard. And I also teach the similar class at Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and Media Arts. And, you know, Chapman's a top. for a film school in the country. So I'm at these two great universities. And for your viewers of your podcast, the Harvard class, I do one in the summertime

where they allow people who aren't officially Harvard students to take the class. So it's pretty great. And it's an intensive in what I said, advanced television sketch writing. It's how to write sketches,

particularly for television. That's amazing. If you think dot com, you have a great website and taking classes. I don't know if I have this right or not because the internet you just never know, but did you go back like maybe five years ago to guess right for SNL? I did. What were the circumstances? So the circumstances were Steve Higgins and I are friendly and Higgins said, Hugh, wouldn't it be cool for you to come back for just a little bit and like

you're a senior writer? You can help the youngsters. You know, so I, I'm like, I love that idea. So I went back and I wrote on the Sandra O show. Yeah, yeah. And I wrote on the Kit Harrington show, just those two. And of course, people have asked me, well, how was it different than when I was there? I'd say the biggest difference, Mark, two things. One is that so much of the content at SNL now is pre-taped, right?

Like what? 30% of the show, maybe, is not live? It seems that it's like about at least three pieces. There you go. That's a lot. That's a lot of, that's a lot of people. The other big change is just NBC is much more corporate. The offices are not, they don't feel like crazy artists anymore.

They feel like an accounting firm. So it's just like very quiet and corporate. So that was a, that surprised me as a vibe. And the other thing I would say is different is I've appreciated you asking me about all these monologues that I wrote for S&L, because I feel like there's been a real change in the style of monologue that Saturday Night does these days. It seems to me that the monologues now are less about being hilarious and more about just warming up the crowd, making the host seem likable. Maybe they tell a true story about their past, or they just talk about how Saturday Night

means something to them. When I was there, that wasn't the case at all. I would just come up with you know, outside the box, sometimes weird concepts like the Friends one that we talked about. Yeah, it definitely changes. Like, for example, I know the first year you were there, the sketches,

they were doing a lot of premise pieces, and then the next year was pretty much all character pieces until at least update. It could definitely, like, definitely they would push the big ground lanes people, and they don't really do that. Now, the big over-the-top characters is right now, so it's a little bit different.

But I'm just saying it goes, different ways. They don't do catchphrases. They haven't done that in years. Right. No catchphrases, exactly. They haven't done that in years. Before we go, one quick question. What was the circumstances that Rick Ludwin, the late Rick Ludwin called you? Oh, my God. Yes. He is the vice president of NBC vice of late night. Late Rick Ludwin, who, you know, Seinfeld, responsible. Seinfeld's Conan O'Brien. He championed. He was a great guy. So I wrote a sketchmark for myself. This is the year that I did some weekend update appearances, where it was me, Hugh Think, on Weekend Update, responding to an article in all the trades that NBC was

cutting back its budget for Christmas parties for its staff and shows. So I wrote this angry editorial in a funny way, talk about how, hey, NBC, that's great that you can save $200 on potato chips at a Christmas party. How about saving money by firing the head of your programming, considering that you're last in the ratings? So I was just like, you know, in a funny way, making fun of NBC's failures. So I did it at the table read. It got huge laughs. I assumed I was going to get to do it that Saturday night.

I get a phone call from Rick Ludwin who had been my champion and liked me a lot. And he was furious, Mark. And he goes, Hugh, I just read your sketch because they sent the West Coast all the material. He goes, let me say this to you as a friend. Seriously, please don't do this sketch. Because if you do, it could seriously damage your standing at NBC. And I said, Rick, I'm stunned. Is this a threat?

Are you telling me not to do the sketch? He goes, Hugh, I'm telling you because I like you. That's what I'm calling you. It will not help your career if you do this sketch. Then he proceeded to tell me that, Hugh, when you say they should fire the head of programming, he goes, you're talking about my friend Garth Ancier. That's what you're talking about, Mark, little did I know, a week after this conversation with Rick Ledwin, Garth was fired.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So talk about hitting a nerve about NBC corporate politics that I didn't even know I was hitting. I do want to say that I knew Rick, and Rick was very nice to me. Yeah. That was, he did not do that routinely calling up people. at SNL, and he was known as a champion of people's works and stuff.

So I feel like that was probably the one time that maybe he did. I mean, he definitely tried to get the Johnny Carson sketches. Please, you don't do them, but just because of Carson. And just so you know, Mark, I was very upset and I went to Lauren and told him the story. And Lauren, you know, he was so and so part of, but the fact is we did not do the sketch. Yeah. it's just what's what it is but it's just what it is it does say the people that love the show sometimes and I was talking to somebody else not the funniest stuff doesn't always get on it's

I'd say a lot of times right yeah it just it happens will you come back sometime we'd love to have you back here oh yeah mark I would love to do part two to this interview oh I have so many more questions how did this go I know you do these you do these sometimes how is this yeah but I like the laser beam focus you have on certain shows that I would a part of and think that's really cool. So let's definitely do a part two. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was doing research how much press you got when you did that.

The Hanuk, so this is Hanukkah. And so this is Hanukkah. Oh, my good. Talk about a firestorm of protests and talk about Mark, if that sketch had aired now, how much it would be amazing. When we do this, we'll lead with that when we do another episode. Hugh, thank you so much. Good luck.

Hugh think.com. Hughes classes, you have a lot going on. And yeah, just thank you for your kind. You got it. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news,

and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward-slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday. Thank you. We're going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be able to be.

Thank you.