Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Hugh Fink Returns

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Hugh Fink returns to discuss writing for Saturday Night Live, Lorne Michaels, Norm Macdonald, Tina Fey, & David Letterman. Hugh's Official Site: www.hughfink.com

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by latenighter.com. Today's guest is comedian writer Hugh Fink, who returns to the show. We talk more about his seven years writing for Saturday Night Live. Now it's time to go inside late night. Hugh Fing, thanks for coming back. Happy to be back, Marker Malkin. Are you going to be going to the 50th SNL that's coming up? I'm super excited. I'm attending both the music celebration at Radio City on Valentine's Day, which is a live broadcast, right, on NBC. And then Sunday night is the primetime NBC special, followed by what I think will be the century's greatest after party at the Plaza Hotel. Because when I attended the 40th, that's the one where Prince got on stage and performed with Maya Rudolph. It was insane.

Taylor Swift, McCartney. Yeah, I've talked to people that were there. I remember Gilbert Godfrey actually told me because he was there because people forget he was in the cast, that it was celebrity overload. That, I mean, it just was, he'd never been any around that many. For somebody that, like you'd spin around that all the time, it's like everywhere you turned. I remember certainly 10 years ago thinking, Jay-Z and Beyonce are standing five yards from me alone. I could go up to them and say anything. And I had nothing to say, I like both of them very much, but I really couldn't think of an intriguing enough conversation to have with that. So you're going to the 50th. Did they give any sense on the overflow situation? Because having to fit everybody in 8H, I know that they have 8G, which is Seth Myers, on the 40th, they had some overflow. Did they give any indication on how that's going to work? So many people in 50 years, I mean, in the last 10 years. They did not, other than to say, that you can't bring a guest. Because can you imagine?

Yes, that will cut down. That will actually help a lot. I was told the writers, I don't know if you know anything about this. I heard that the rule was you had to be a writer for three years to get invited at least three years. That's what I was told. I don't know if that's what you have. I would believe that just because if you didn't have that rule, it would be dozens of more people.

Yeah, I'm sorry to Max Brooks on that. He missed by one, your pal who wrote some really fun stuff together. and he's tremendous and like talk about another person who left SNL who you know he was let go and stuff and it was the best thing that ever happened and his career exploded so many cast members and people you know just it's it has to sting and then it just goes even better leaving totally I mean to me the exhibit A of that is Chris Rock who it's not that he didn't have a good tenure but when he talks about his time on SNL Chris felt like a failure. He didn't feel that he was nearly as good a writer or actor as a lot of people around him. But I worked with him in stand-up at a club in Phoenix, Arizona after he had been let go from SNL. It was so remarkable that I was watching a brilliant stand-up about to become the hottest comedian in the country. Yeah, his update pieces were amazing. And then there was that point leading up to bring in the pain where, I mean, yeah, he couldn't get a

arrested in terms of like his career and stuff. I mean, he was still Chris Rock. Yeah, it was just the rise when that special came out was just incredible. See, I was told by a very, very good source that Rock actually had his manager at the time Jim Dixon, James Dixon, who yeah, has everybody now that he asked James Dixon to get out of his contract. I don't know if that actually happened. I know that Rock said when Sandler, I think, hosted that he was fired, but I did Rock tell you he was fired. I don't think he was. He never. Right. So it wouldn't surprise me if that was possible what you're saying.

Yeah. That's possible. That's just what I heard. So people that are listening, when we concluded this, I teased a sketch that absolutely killed that you wrote. And as I guess the only Jewish writer, you wrote a sketch called So This is Hanukkah, which is this Hanukkah special. And it got so much press. I mean, I think it would now. it would work on two levels. One, it would get so much for us, just people laughing, like, watching it on YouTube, which really didn't exist back then, where people were watching the sketches and just how funny it was. But holy protest. I mean, it was one of those things, like, how did you find out that, was at the Anti-Defamation League? I forget who it was, was upset. How did you find out and were you worried at all? The way I found out, Mark, was, because this is, you know, pre-internet social media, was, Monday, I used to go check media sources to see if they reviewed the show or there was any feedback, right? And it was all over the national news, meaning USA Today and the New York

Times and any big journal. And the headline was Abe Foxman. I'll never forget the name. Head of the Anti-Devamation League is demanding an apology from Senate Live over this sketch. In what happened? Can you set up the premise for it? So this is Hanukkah. The sketch was a parody of a CBS primetime special called And So This Is Christmas. It featured celebrities singing their normal Christmas songs. Mine was called And So This Is Hanukkah. It was a promo for this non-existent special. And the joke that was the lightning rod for the controversy was the host was Christina Ritchie. And I cast her as Britney's. Spears. And I had her look at camera and go, hey, y'all, Chonika is a special time of year where we as Christians try to forgive our Jewish friends for killing our Savior. And that was the joke. Apparently, Abe Foxman felt that it was hitting on the trope of the Jews killed Christ and it was offensive. And that's why he demanded. an apology from Lorne Michaels in the NBC. But what happened is NBC released an apology, just as he demanded. And they also said, and we agree that this sketch won't air again, it was in bad taste. What I was so thrilled about is hours later, Lauren Michaels issued his own press release, saying, NBC doesn't speak for me. This is my show. And I don't apologize. And

For anyone who understands comedy, the sketch was satirical, and it was pointing out the ignorance of anti-Semitism. It wasn't promoting anti-Semitism. And so I was so happy to ask you, when you asked me, was I worried? No, honestly, I was wondering at what point would some journalists do their research and find out that a Jewish writer wrote this sketch? strangely, that never came up. You would think now that would probably happen. Back then, it was one of those things where it's such a shame because writers didn't get much attribution on the sketches where now it's like with Twitter and inside information and stuff

people that were writing. So it did end up in reruns, correct? Your sketch? It did, but you know what, Mark, only briefly, and here's why. I don't think it was about the controversy of my sketch. I think it was about the musical rights to clear all those song parodies. Because the one that I have a fine memory of was I had Chris Catan as Ricky Martin singing Lovita Loco, you remember that.

That was the hottest song in America at the time. I also had Jimmy Fallon and Chris Parnell playing David Bowie and Bing Crosby, right? I just took iconic, but, you know, those are expensive. And every time you rerun those on a network, it costs the network money. So I've had this feeling that the sketch got buried for that reason, but I actually don't know. It happens all the time, especially now on YouTube and Peacock, because we have the entire SNL catalog. Yeah, and it's a 90-minute show, and it's 26 minutes for certain episodes because they're so little just because of the music rights. And they just, I mean, who is going to foresee that?

So this has come up a lot, but I want to go in a different direction. And the Eddie Murphy joke that you wrote for Spade when Spade hosted David Spade and upset Eddie Murphy about, oh, look, kids. What was it? All in Star. When Eddie called up Spade and was upset on that Monday, did he ever ask who wrote the joke? Because Spade, you know, he said, I didn't write it, which is absolutely true. I mean, Eddie Murphy's ear didn't diminish because of that. Did any Murphy ever try to inquire?

Not to my knowledge. And to Spade's credit, it, you know, it was the segment I produced for him called Spade in America. Spade did invent the Hollywood Minute. So he took ownership of it. So he wasn't going to sell me out or, you know, blame the writer because Spade got to decide which jokes he wanted in Hollywood Bennett, which he didn't. And obviously, he chose that joke. Like he was very conscious of what the joke was and doing it. I thought he was hosting. Okay, so he was doing Spade in America. And they censored you. It was a Pam Anderson joke, which I, it's strange to me that it got censored just because the other late night shows were doing very similar material. If you want to say what the joke is, but it was it? Oh, wait, was it the joke? Hold on a second. I think I know what you're alluding to.

Oh, yeah, it was about, um, about the tattoo. I find it very hard to swallow. No, I have a question for you. I thought that the joke did air, right? It wasn't censored. I thought it aired. It was absolutely censored. They muted it. They had Spade deliver it and they mute it and you just hear the audience laughing. You just taught me something then. Because see, I remember Lauren Michaels was okay with the joke. He'd have a problem with it. But the NBC censors were all over me about it.

Was that Andrew Brewer at the time? Yes, it would have been Andrew Brewer. That's true. And by the way, I had a great relationship with. Now, Mark, your viewers will find this interesting. I come from a lawyer, a family of lawyers. very well versed in like civil liberties and free speech. So I would get a note from Andrew Brewer saying, you can't do this joke. And I'd walk into his office or call him and go, so how does it feel to just be basically creating Berlin in 1937 and shutting down free speech? And he'd go like, oh, fuck you, Hugh. And he'd laugh. But what I learned with Andrew Brewer is it was all negotiation. Let's say there were three jokes that he was demanding I lose. Oftentimes, he would allow me to keep one or two of them, but I had to cut something to make him happy. But yeah, the swallow joke, we definitely battled over.

There was one joke, and I always heard Lauren Michaels in interviews or other people saying that the writers always had pretty much the final say with a sketch. Now, this has happened to other writers. I know this where somehow I don't know what how the situation was or the context but I know that there was a joke that you put in I think it was a sex joke that you put in one of your sketches and you got it and Lauren wasn't happy and in trouble but with logic going with he said that the writers have final say

why why was he upset what were the what was the context and what happened it's similar in a sense to the swallow joke I can tell you exactly what the joke was it was a parody of those phone sex line commercials, remember that we're in New York. And remember Mark, I did a series of weird regional phone sex lines. One was called Aussie girls. El McPherson. And Sting. And Sting. Very good. Then I did one with Christine Bransky called Detroit Girls, where they all had that horrible Michigan accent. And Bransky, I knew, would nail the accent. So the joke was Jim Brewer calling up the sex line and the sex worker saying something about the tigers suck, meaning the baseball team, and Brewer is saying, and hopefully so do you.

Well, the problem is, and this is true, I didn't clear the joke with Lorne himself. Between dress and air, I added that joke without his permission. So he was upset that he's watching the live broadcast And he's a smart guy He recognized that was a joke That had not been in any other draft So that really pissed him off How long did it take him to get over it

Because it talked to people That it just takes a little time I don't recall there any Like I feel like by the next week He was okay with me But he let me have it the night of the show Which is that's how mad he was for him to find me after the live show at like the after party or on our way to the after

party. And I'll never forget, Mark, he goes, Hugh, maybe that joke plays well at the funny bone in Omaha. This is network television. Try to do better. And it just made me feel so bad. Did he raise his voice at all? No, no, he rarely raised his voice. It was more just like an intensity where you knew he was upset or pissed. But he wasn't a yeller. Yeah, that's so interesting that in terms of having the final say, but just still, I guess how it works with clearing something with him. I was going to ask you if you had any knowledge of this because I did not until my friend Dan Pasternak sent me a video. Mark Russell, after you wrote his sketch, he did a video actually for my friend Dan and he sent it to Mark McKinney. Dan is friends with both of them.

Were you aware of this? Wait a minute. Dan, Pastor Nex, friends with, friends with Mark Russell, the real... He was. He was friends with everyone. I mean... No. I'm not aware of this at all. So Pastor Nex sent me the video, and it was Mark Russell, and he's looking into the camera, and he said, Mark McKinney, I saw the sketch on Saturday Night, and I only have one thing to say to respond. I'm crushing your head. I'm crushing your head. And he did the whole kids in the hall thing, and I thought it was the funniest thing, and I couldn't believe it.

And I thought he was such a good sport. That's amazing, because I never got that feedback. I never knew if Mark Russell saw the sketch or liked it. Yeah, I mean, I think for somebody that, you know, is not really with the younger demographic anymore, just to be mentioned on SNL and get a whole sketch. It was earlier in pretty early in the show, I think, too. By the way, that was the Chris Rock show. Yes, and Wallflowers, I think, as well. That was Chris Rock's first time hosting the show.

Yeah, that was a really big deal. That was such an interesting time period because they did this. They don't do this too often, but it was a whole thematic thing where they were only putting, it was like six host in a row or something, where they were all former cast members. It was Downey Jr. It was Carvey. It was Rock. I'd have to look at the list, but it was all people that they were putting, that they were putting

and that were former cast members. But yeah, that Rock was by that time when he got on stage and stuff, he was a force. And now Locatami is still, you know, hosting the show. was a hot show, too, because that was post-OJ verdict. So, you know, Chris had so many witty things to say about OJN. I wrote the sketch he did that night, his NatX talk show, because remember NatX had been a character, but I brought it back. I remember one of the jokes Mark that I love that we did on that was because NatX always did a top 10. And it was top 10 reasons Whoopi Goldberg movies suck

and number 10 Sister Act Number nine, Sister Act 2 number eight but the number one reason if whoopies in it that's what I remember

was the number one reason Whoopi Goldberg movies suck She's in it Yeah, that's definitely I have to look back in But that the Nata acts thing That was like the one sketch That Chris Rocksbrook

His recurring character One of the only things that he was They would like throw him in once in a while like Nipsey Russell, I think he only did it once, but it never really, it was like almost when he was with himself on update. That's when he, he shined. I want to go back to, we were talking before last time about the pitch meeting. What happens when you got like an, I'm not going to mention the person's name. If you want a you can, but it's an A list actress. I know that she, when she hosted a film actress when she was there. And like, they'll ask the host, do you have any ideas? And like,

if you're smart, if you're not a comedian, probably not say anything or like, just, maybe you want to ask like a comedy friend like if this might be a good pitch but when you have somebody that's an a lister and you're with all these the some of the best comedy writers in the business and you say I want to do a sketch of at Fardane what is the risk like I mean obviously the host you have to be polite no matter what and everybody the air bubble and the ho the writers are like you've got to be kidding like the most low brow like that's what you that's what you want to do let's do something that would be fun with like do you recall that I mean I'm going to get was that Cameron Diaz No comment.

Yeah, I, Hugh Fink will say on the record, I think that was Cameron Diaz. Yeah, for me, as a comedian and comedy writer, it's the equivalent of slowly deflating a balloon, meaning, oh, really, that's the taste level or comedic sophistication of this person. So it's kind of a bummer. Now, thank God, I didn't have to write that sketch, nor would I. and honestly, I don't even think we did do that idea. I don't think so. But for Lauren, like, I mean, I know he would have this exact same reaction as you'd be polite. I think you told me one time because you would teach these comedy classes and you still are doing it.

And I think that this is a good point in terms of something can be really, really funny and get laughs, but not necessarily be good comedy. But this was your opinion on this person, but you would actually show. a video of this comedian who passed away. Can you mention who it was and what the context was to show people? Sure. Tell if this is the right story mark. So teaching at UCLA, a class on stand-up comedy, I gathered all the students. And before I said a word to them, I put on on the monitor an excerpt of the comedian Gallagher, and I let them watch it for about 10 minutes. and what was interesting was some people were like laughing pretty hard

other people were not laughing at all I stopped his special 10 minutes in and I came back and said all right any of you who found this funny or thought this is good comedy this is probably not the class for you

and you just saw the students be shocked that I would start off a class that way but that really was my implicit message to go yet getting laughs has actually not so much to do with being clever or original and Gallagher would be a great example of that. Taking away the watermelons, he had something like 12 showtime specials. Do you not find any of his material intelligent? I think what happened is the stuff that I found so bad got in the way of anything he did do that was maybe good.

So I'm not going to go on record and say nothing Gallagher did was funny. I just remember that the bits that he did that made him famous and that people would repeat were the things that I would just shake my head at. Only reason I'm going to mention this host is because you did an interview and you talked about it, and that's Bill Pullman. So Bill Pullman comes in and you write what I think is a very funny monologue premise. You pitch it to him and what happens? Well, to make it completely accurate, Mark, now did I pitch it, we did it as a thing.

the table read, and it crushed, and it got chosen to be the monologue for that week. So, in other words, Gordon Michaels approved it. Everyone approved, the network approved it. So we're all happy. Hugh wrote this monologue for Bill Pullman that's going to get big laughs. And the premise of the monologue was that Bill Pullman, who was in the number one movie of the year that week, you remember what it was? Independence Day. Very good, Independence Day.

He's hot off the number one movie. The premise was he comes out on stage. and says, hey, I'm going to take some questions from you, I'm Bill Pullman, and, you know, the old technique of plants in the audience asking questions. So the joke and the premise was that everyone confused Bill Pullman with other actors. They thought he was Bill Paxton. They thought he was Michael Douglas, and that he gets progressively angrier and more frustrated that people don't know to who hell he is. Well, Lauren loved it, said it was the perfect take on this guy. So Friday, we haven't really rehearsed the monologue officially yet.

I get called in by the talent office and they go, will you talk to Bill Pullman? I go, what's going on? They go, apparently he doesn't like the monologue anymore. I'm like, what? So I go meet with him. And there was someone from the talent office with me to witness this. And he goes, hey man, can you tell me sort of get,

And why are we doing this monologue? And me being me, I go, why are we doing it? Because it's a comedy show and it got big laughs at the table read and it's funny. That's why we're doing it. He didn't like that. And he's like, hey, man, because you know what? I don't think it's that funny. Like I don't know what we're doing here, Hugh.

I said, well, Bill, what we're doing here is you're making fun of yourself. for maybe not being as well known as a lot of people with the number one movie in the country. And we're pointing that out in a funny way. And he goes, yeah, but people, it's not going to work because people do know me. So I said to go back and forth with him. And clearly, this is what's happened, Mark. His publicist has read the script after it's been and gone, Bill, you can't do that. That makes you look like you're not a movie star, right? So it has nothing to do with comedy. It's everything to do with his image. And this is so great. So I meet with Lauren Michaels to tell him that Bill's refusing to do the monologue. And Lauren says,

Hugh, last night I had dinner with Bill. We walked from the restaurant back to 30 Rock. Do you know how many people recognized him? I said, no. He goes, nobody. Which again is Lauren's way of saying, your monologue is spot on. It's making a true observation that people don't know this guy. Well, sad story. And you know what happened. He did refuse to do the monologue. And I got a sign to rewrite his new monologue, which literally had one joke in it. And then him just saying, stick around. We'll be right back. It's one of the worst monologues that I ever saw that I was ashamed to be a part of. But in truth, it was not my monologue. It was Bill Pullman's monologue. Didn't Colin Quinn later tell you that Bill Pullman was complaining about you at the after party? Well, I considered the complaint a compliment, but the way Colin told me the story mark was that Bill Pullman, who was drinking now a little bit, the show's over, he's like, God, you know, these writers, like, this Hugh Fink guy, like, he's just, he doesn't give up, man, he doesn't

give up. And yeah, he picked up on the fact that I was passionate about my idea. I had the show's backing. It had killed at the table read. So, yeah, I didn't tell him what he wanted to hear. And I do have a funny epilogue for you. Okay. About before COVID, I was at a dinner party here in L.A.

Who's at the dinner party? Bill Pullman. I've had no contact with this man since what you're describing. I decided, what the hell? I'll go up to him, reintroduce myself. he clearly had no recollection of me or the monologue. He was perfectly polite, but I thought that was really interesting that I'm sitting here talking to you about it years later. He had no memory of it.

That's interesting that, yeah, because it could have gone either way. Right. You were there for an interesting time with Lauren Michaels, because this had never happened in the show's history. It happened during Ebersoll years, and briefly with Gene D. Dominion with Eddie Murphy more, you know, when when Ebersol was there with Eddie Murphy getting so much time. But never in the history of the show had somebody gotten as much camera time during Lord Michaels as I believe Will Ferrell. I mean, he started a precedent with the groundlands where writers would put in sketches just to get, I mean, Will's funny on his own, but to get your sketch

pick what you need to. They were putting Will's name on it. It happened then with Kristen Wigg. it happened with Kate McKinnon. Now, this is my preference. I like all those people above, but I really enjoy the show the last couple years because it's a cast ensemble and there isn't one person that is getting, it seems, maybe Sarah Sherman a little bit, maybe a little bit more, maybe Keenan shows up here and there, but there is nobody. But back then it was a point and it became that with Kristen Wigg and Kate McKinnon more where when did that happen when when writers started being like we have to get our sketch and we're going to put Farrell in. I do remember Mark that before I was writing on the show, but I had friends who were on the show

that Lauren would sometimes look at what they had for the week and go, we need more Dana. We need more Dana. So I think that even with Carvey, they recognized that he was a star, people liked him, and that if when in doubt, add Dana to a sketch. It's true, but there were a sketch. there were times where him and Mike Myers was the biggest movie starts with Wayne's World and Myers was was only in like a piece or two and then he'd be in the next week he'd be in everything and there would be times where Carvey would be light. He would be in the show, but with Will

Farrell, I mean, I mean, you could make the argument maybe Phil Hartman, but they would write him in is it wouldn't get the sketch picked necessarily, just that he was the glue that kept the sketch together. But in terms of putting somebody's name on it, I get what you're saying with Carvey. And I'm giving you another supposition here that maybe you don't agree with, but that I think with the current cast, one could argue that it is an ensemble that works well, but no one cast member has leapt forward to be a star in the way of the people you're talking about. Because if they did, then there's a chance they would be in twice as many sketches. Like you said, Kate, yeah. I mean, I definitely think like Sarah Sherman, Chloe Feynman. Yes, mute.

It's Mikey Day. You know, I always have this theory that I think could be well proven, Mark, you would actually be the guy to know is that if you're on the show for two years, two full years as a cast member, and you don't have at least one sketch that the general American populace

who knows comedy will say, oh, I love that actor in that sketch. If you don't have that, you might still be super talented and you might still have a good career, but it generally means you're not, going to be a star on Saturday Night Live. There's exceptions.

Like Tracy Morgan was one of those people that if he was around now, I mean, he talked about in the documentary, he was like, they didn't get me the first couple of years. I'm like, because you weren't ready. I mean, there were certain people that just were not ready. And he got the luxury of a little bit more time, very similar to Conan when he was at late night, whereas some of the other people that were let go, maybe only get a season. But besides him, I think you're on the money. I do think that in terms of like hitting that show and having longevity.

video on it. You're absolutely right. I think he was maybe one of the, and I'm really glad that they gave him a little bit more time and he figured it out. Yes, and honestly, Tracy went to the stratosphere with 30 Rock. I think there were still people not as familiar with Tracy Morgan as a comedic after or

a persona until Tina put him in that. I think so. I mean, Lauren was really, I mean, took care of him in terms of keeping him on SNL where maybe the first season or two, he wasn't resonating in the audience. and then the Tracy Morgan show, which no one remembers on NBC, was a Lorne Michaels. That's right. And then 30 Rock.

And that's, yeah, I think that's where Tracy absolutely shine. This is another thing. I was watching Fallon when he had his late night show back at the 1230 show, which was ever going. So Wyatt Sinak is on with Jimmy. And Jimmy is talking about you used to be an intern at SNL. He says something like Norm McDonald says, hi. I remember like, and it's over the audiences. head. I mean, Wyatt kind of smiles a little bit, and Jimmy's, like, laughing a little bit. I know

what's going on, but Wyatt, Seneck, in later years, recently, I think in the last couple years, this was way after the Fallon interview. You were there for this. What happened? I was an eyewitness to what you're referring to. What happened? So Norm had this habit that I did not like at all of playing touch football in the 17th floor of 30 Rocks elevator bank. And the problem is I would walk by just to my office or leaving it. And the game was getting kind of rough. Like you'd see someone would throw a Nerf football and someone else would catch it. And then they slammed the guy against the elevator, like to tackle it.

And it just looked incredibly dangerous to me. and, you know, really adolescent. So one night, I'm walking by, and they're playing the touch football, and Wyatt Cinnak, who at this point is literally an intern on the show, he's a nobody, he either, you know, catches the ball or something, but he bumps Norm or something happened, where Norm basically, like, shoved him to the ground

or punches him and Wyatt returns it with a punch and it became like a fight all over a stupid touch football game that has nothing to do

with comedy and I just remember going like yeah this is bad this is exactly why I don't like them doing this in the hallway Norm is very competitive

obviously he didn't like being embarrassed by Wyatt, you know, catching the ball when normal was supposed to be defending and whatever was going on, right. So nothing happens, though. There's no, to my knowledge, nothing happens. They, you know, SNL, to me, I never even heard of HR back then. No one ever complained. I've heard Colin Quinn in some interviews talk about Chris Katan, who you wrote some really, you wrote Peepers, you wrote The Crocodile Hunter,

Colin would talk about what he would witness between Catan and Norm, which would get a little contentious. He said that there was maybe some sketch. I forget during a read-through. I forget, but what stands out about their relationship and Norm kind of teasing Catan and Catan? I have a story for you that nobody probably knows because I witnessed it too.

When the Rolling Stone magazine put them all on the cover because the show was hot again, right? I remember. You remember that? Do you remember a quote in the article where Norm alluded to Chris Catan sort of made some snide remark about that he's gay, which Catan was not?

And the reporter asked Catan, Norm said this, what do you respond? And Chris Catan said, Norm's an animal. So that was in print in Rolling Stone magazine. Can I just give a little bit more context, a little bit more? So the one thing that Norm said is I don't find him funny. And Katan said if Norm said that, then you can print that. I said that he's, yeah, what you just said.

And he did, Norm was quoted as saying, I've never met, I've seen a guy who was gay, that gay before that's not gay. And I think Downey said, I think that he was referring to kind of in the cheeky sense. I think that's where Downey was quoted, something like that. But I do remember that, I do remember that very well in the, article. You've set it up very well. So the next Saturday Night Live show, there's an after party, and I'm probably seated with Catan. I must have been. And Catan's father, the character actor Kip King, was visiting Chris. And so Norm comes up to them at the party. Hey, Mr. Kittan,

And Kip King, I just wanted to say, it's really good to meet you. It's fun, really nice working with your son, and welcome. So Katan's kind of surprised that Norm's being so respectful. So he takes him aside and goes, I don't get it, Norm. Like you slam me in Rolling Stone, insult me. Then you come up and are really nice to my dad. Like, what, I just explain to me, why are you doing this? And Norm goes, I mean, really.

Chris, what am I really going to say you're dad? Your son's unfunny and gay and just walks away. How did Catan react to that? Not well, but, you know, I think that that was their relationship. And I would have to say that I don't think Chris had anything against Norm other than the fact that Norm started in, you know,

publicly criticizing him. And then the Rolling Stone cover was an issue. At least Jim Brewer did an interview where, again, I can't believe sometimes, I'm just very surprised with what a big deal that is

sometimes internally, but the Rolling Stone, it was Molly was on the cover, Molly Shannon, it was Sherry O'Terry and, Molly is Mary Catherine Gallagher, it was Sherry O'Tarian Farrell is the cheerleaders, and then you had who was it? Was one other person, I believe, I can't believe I'm blanking on who it was. Nor was asked to

be in it, but he wasn't in it, but it was, um, but the thing that's been all on a on a guest tire or could have been. I'm trying to remember who was, I think it was four. Brewer was quoted as saying that like they secretly like, I guess had a photo shoot with like the four of them or whoever it was. You know, it was Catan. I think it maybe is a Roxbury. It could have been. I think, I forget, I think maybe Catan. I think Catan was in it for sure. But Brewer was saying about how they did a secret photo shoot and it was such a, it was like a, a, a lot of, of people were upset. Really? I mean, it's it's such, I, I, I'm shocked just with like how busy the show is and everything going on. I mean, it's a huge deal. I guess that it had been a while

that anybody from S&L, I think from the show they were covered in on Rolling Stone, but like, was stuff like that a big deal? No, not, it wasn't for writers, honestly. I could say if I were a cast member, I could probably see how it would be a big deal because you want to believe that you're valued and it's a team that you're a part of. So when you're not included in a big media thing like that, you would feel hurt. But I didn't recall at the time any controversy about the cover. That was probably only within the cast itself. Apparently, Norm was like, I don't

care. And Brewer, I guess, wanted to be Goat Boy or Pesci. Yeah, it was one of those things where I, just the behind the scenes, I was very very surprised. In terms of, the rewrites, which would take place, they would break them up a lot of times in two groups on 17 and on 9. Who were one of the two of the funniest writers around the table in terms of the rewrites? Because somebody could write sketches and hand one in on a Wednesday. And is a very different skill set sometimes being around a table and being funny. Who were some of the best people around the table? I feel like Tina Faye was really good at rewriting jokes and pitching stuff. Mike Scherer,

he had a nickname Rewrite Master So sometimes he would pitch a joke and the headwriter would go like Oh, that's great. And he'd go, rewrite master!

But I remember Shore being definitely a rewriter. And I feel like Paula Pell was a good rewriter. She could definitely contribute new funny stuff. Yeah. So there were certain cast members that you, I'm not going to mention who they are, but you did not write for.

There were certain people that you just found funnier than others. Did some of these, and I'm thinking of two people, I'm not going to say who they are, did they ever ask you or like, why aren't you writing for me or would you please consider writing for me? And if so, how do you, what do you say back to somebody like that? Right. I don't recall honestly that anyone ever confronting me or ask me about that. The only thing I remember, Horatio Sands once gently complained to me that the only thing I ever wrote for him was asking him to do impressions of, you know, celebrities. And by the way, that's generally true, that if I wanted Horatio in a sketch, it was because I felt like there was someone he physically or otherwise could approximate in a funny way, but I didn't generally write a lot of stuff for him. If you're comfortable with it, what was the line that it was like a sketch that didn't make it?

You wrote it and it didn't get picked for, I think that they flagged it because it was kind of like an inside. Like sometimes I was told Fred Armist would write these sketches, like a sketch or two where actually about the read through that was going on and they would read it. But I know that you wrote one of those type sketches that got pulled and not picked, but what was it was like Tracy Morgan talking about just in general? I think he's just talking and he mentions and Horatio, what is it? Like next year, you're not coming back. Is that it? I'd forgotten that until you just brought it up.

I think I wrote that my last episode on my last season, knowing that, well, if they hate it, they can't punish me for writing it. I think you're right. I did do some joke about that. Another time, Mark, I remember, for Ellen DeGeneres, this didn't get picked,

but I thought it should have. it was a monologue. It was basically Ellen sang something about that the show's been around longer than people think, and it was recreating a monologue from like 1937. So it had sort of the SNL theme song, but done in a big band 30s way with a different announcer. But the joke was after about six or seven fake cast member names,

it was Tim Meadows, as if he'd been there for 75 years. And that got a huge laugh at the table. It's really, really. It's making me laugh now. Was it that good? Of course, since my era mark, there's been cast members who's now stayed longer than Tim, right? It's amazing because Steve Higgins came up with the joke about, they did at least one,

maybe two, about how Meadows was there for 11. They did a, I think it was, it was a musical bit. It might have been when Mike Myers hosted, and he was like talking about I couldn't get out of my, I should never have signed a 14-year contract or 30-year contract. contractor, whatever it was. And Tim Meadows basically said at first, you know, like Tim, that Steve Evans was like, are you okay that I'm doing this? And yeah, but he was okay with it. And it happened. But now, for whatever reason, I mean, there's a couple people that have stayed longer than Tim, but those jokes don't. I mean, it's, it started as like, like, I remember,

like people would be made fun of if they stayed for, yeah, more than like seven or eight years. And now it's just become a thing where people just, you know, it's kind of accepted. It's, exactly um it's a little different were there any writers when you were there because i know that this has happened on the show and i can't imagine you know what sarah silverman admitted this happened she had zero sketches on when she was a writer she got one i think to dress which was john malcovitch and it didn't get on were there any writers that to your knowledge when you were there that did not get anything to air i feel like there were writers who lasted a whole season who maybe didn't get one thing to air if they were renewed and got on a side of that

second season. By their second season, they got something on for sure. But no, I can recall, because, you know, when I started, they'd cleaned house and was like a bunch of writers who had never worked in network TV. There were several writers who were barely getting anything on. Oh, go ahead. I was only going to say that Harper Steel told me that they had a very tough time in the beginning. That's true. I think Harper is correct about that. and they obviously figured it out the longer they stayed and were highly successful. Who else?

Was it having a tough time? Did you, if you recall? I mean, I'm only going to not, I'm trying to think if there's anyone who started out rough like Harper and then thrived. Well, I feel like Tina herself would say her first season was probably marginal. But I feel like by Tina's second season,

she really upped her game it's unbelievable to go to a place i mean the fact that she i think odenkirk is the only other one i know above odenkrick at second sitting this is after he was at an s nl writer where they you can bypass the the touring company and just and go right to um i mean i think she just went from right to the etc and um then to the main stage and not go through that the year or two of the touring company at second city and the the fact that she was able to rise I don't know if you agree with this or not, but like, I don't know anybody in the history of the show. Maybe, I'm sure that's changed. Maybe Seth, after Seth, but that had Lauren's ear like she did.

I mean, do you think that's fair to say? I think the other Smigel did. Yeah, yes, Smigel. But he certainly did because even Smigel left the show and still had Lauren's ear, right? He would come back. Yeah, I mean, Smigel's definitely, I mean. Right. And Jim Damme, of course, Jim Day.

So those, yeah, that would be the trifect of people who came up. I heard that back in the day, Al Franken was that guy. I can see that. Yeah, I can see. I can see that. So we talked about your Letterman debut, about how Letterman knew. Letterman really took to you, obviously, Indiana, and he loved one of your jokes and he would have you do it. I was reading this interview with you, but I don't think I brought this up or this came up, is that he actually, was it your debut that he actually, during the commercial went back, stage in the wings where you were standing?

with Biff Henderson to say hi to you before the show? Yeah, like before, it was before I was introduced on the air. He said hi to me, which is incredible. I've never heard of that before. No, it's unprecedented, especially because Spade had told me from his appearances in Letterman. He was always funny, he goes, man, you know, when the camera's off, Dave just kind of turned his back and didn't talk to him. And that's not because he disliked David.

It's because that's generally how Dave was. with his guests, but it shows how cool Dave was to me that the Indiana connection was big to him. I really like that. I really, Carson, you know, and I do want to mention Letterman, like Carson, wanted to keep, save everything for air. That's why Johnny didn't, I mean, Dave, too of, I mean, Johnny once in a while, it was like Letterman was on a rickles. He'd go backstage just to say, I wanted to keep it. And especially in the commercials wanted to save it for air and just was didn't want, like, and that's what Dave did for the most part. But for him to go backstage and behind beforehand. I was just like, I can't believe this. This is something I had never heard.

When you had your NYU radio show, I remember you telling me Michael Palin was on. Who were some of the people that you got on as a college student? Because like, I can't even imagine. Oh, I love, yeah, one of them, I just paid to see here in L.A. do her one-woman show. Fran Leibowitz. Whoa. How she, I had her on. Yeah, Metropolitan Life had just come out. So you're a college student. You're at NYU. Um, and all these. people were coming on. What was that like? It was phenomenal. I mean, well, I'll tell you, it gave me the confidence to do what I'm doing because I held my own in these interviews, like they weren't some little kid going, oh, please tell me. Like, I had funny, provocative

questions written, and they weren't yes, no questions. They were actually interesting or funny questions. I remember I asked Michael Palin, I said, Michael, you're a British accomplished actor. and there's one thing Americans really wanted to know could you explain the parliamentary system? Which is such a funny question. And it requires him to improvise. And I remember his response was,

well, of course. So the system starts at the lieu of the queen. So you flush the toilet. And then the water goes, it described it like it was the system of the parliament plumbing system. That's how he interpreted it. And I remember at one point

he said something about, he was inspired by Elvis, and I said, Presley or Costello. That's fast. I mean, I was that fast. And I was really like 19 years old. That's pretty fast. So it was great that show. And as you might know, Mark, besides the celebrity interviews where I took live call-ins, phone polls, I had pre-recorded sketches like SNL.

So I did fake promos, commercial parodies. TV show stuff. It was really cool. Was Robert older than, was he going to NYU the same time you were? At the same, yeah, we're about the same time. Was he doing comedy at that point?

No, he was, I think he was like, you know, his father's a famous dentist, right? He may have been like in the business school or cremed, unlike me who was in the school of the arts. Robert Smygel was not in the school of the arts,

but he was at NYU. Amazing to think back. And then we talked about this the last time, But in terms of somebody who wants to get started in the business or write sketches or be able to, like, have a skill set blueprint for writing for S&L or for late-night, considering you were the headwriter for Ferguson. You've created your own show and Comedy Central, the show biz show with David Spade. You're doing these classes. How are they going? And if somebody wanted to take them, I know you teach at Harvard, but could people work with you at all?

People can take my class at Harvard if they're, I think, currently enrolled in college, either undergrad or. or graduate because it's a fully credited course, but Harvard accepts students from other campuses to register for the class. That class is going great. And just so your viewers know, not only do I teach it, but then they get to spend a weekend with me in L.A.

doing a workshop where we write stuff, but I also bring in guest speakers. Daryl Hammond met with the students this time. They were in heaven. I brought in Andy Blitz. You know Andy. Oh, yeah, Conan. I'm in, yeah. Charlie Sanders, who wrote some of the greatest things on Key and Peel.

Funny man, yeah, improviser from New York. I used to watch him at. That's right. So I had them on. And then, so that's a really cool class. Then I teach at Chapman University's Dodge College, which is, you know, top five film school in the country. To my knowledge, you have to be a student at Chapman to study with me at Chapman. I'm so glad we got to do this. I hope you have fun at the 50th. Oh, thank you. Because, Mark, I know you're one of the leading Johnny Carson. experts. I'll leave you with a story I bet you've not heard that my late friend Bob Sagitt told me. So I know it's happened. Sagitt was on Carson many times and Johnny liked him. And one time Johnny

after the show, I think, said, let's take a walk. And they went outside to where Johnny's VIP parking spot was. And there were all these fans outside the Burbank gates. Johnny, we love you. and Sagitt's like, oh my God, this is probably Johnny's life every day. And Johnny looks at the crowd and looks back at Sagitt and goes, Charles. Got Sagat to laugh and then probably lit up a cigarette. Exactly. Exactly. Carson, that's amazing. You, thank you so much for doing this. This was fine. Yeah, Mark. Well, we could do a part three sometime. Oh, I would be my honor. This would be so good. It would love to have you back. That's great. Thanks for listening.

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We're going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. Thank you. Thank you.