Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Inside Late Night: David Ritz

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Today's special episode of Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff features David Ritz, Mark's coauthor of Love Johnny Carson: One Obsessive Fan's Journey to Find the Genius Behind the Legend, available now! David joins Mark to discuss the creation of the autobiography.Make sure to follow us on social media (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠⁠⁠⁠) and subscribe on all podcast platforms and YouTube ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠⁠⁠⁠ to never miss an episode!

From Late Nighter.com, it's Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Hi, it's Mark Malkoff. Welcome to Inside Late Night. The reason I am doing this intro is because it's October 21st, 2025. And my book, Love, Johnny Carson is out today. I can't believe that I've been working on this thing for years. I've interviewed over 400 people. Please support me. Make me happy. It would make me so happy if you got the book. It's available on everywhere from Amazon to Barnes & Noble.com, books a million, Target, Walmart, so many different places. Audible, you can get the audiobook. I did narrate it over five days. So please check that out. Today, my co-writer, David Rich talks to me about writing Love Johnny Carson.

he is a legend in his own right. Stay two. David Ritz, it's good to see you, my friend. It's good to see you, Mark. Happy to do this. I still can't believe two things. One, when this is coming out, it's the day that our book, I love Johnny Carson, comes out, and two, that I was able to somehow get you to agree to work with me. I mean, you're a legend. I mean, the amount of the books that you put out, a number of hits and the people that you work with iconic people and that you've shown so much kindness to me. I'll be forever grateful to you. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But I think it's all happened because it should have happened. And I think of the book title, you know, love Johnny Carson. I just

have always loved Johnny Carson. So when I got this note from me, because, you know, I get a bunch of notes from people wanting to do books. And I don't even read them all because it's usually my aunt was a great airplane pilot, please write her story, you know, and I can't get a deal and so on and so forth. But when your note came through, it really touched my heart because beyond my feeling how genuine you were about Johnny, I was really impressed by the number, by the amount of scholarship. I mean, you probably wouldn't use the word scholarship, but that's exactly what it was. You had learned everything. You had spent years doing this research and also

you were doing it and I think this is what drew me in the most. You were doing it from a position of love. In other words, it wasn't okay, what kind of nasty shit can we learn about Johnny and salacious details? Because everybody has it in their life. I mean, me included, but you were coming at it from such a such a righteous point of view that it attracted me and that's all and I just like to do books where I can express and I can help people tell a story that I think is important to tell and you had that story as a matter of fact you had that story times a hundred I mean our challenge was how to fit everything in because you

just know so much. How do we tell the story? Where do we put everything? And you talked to me off the ledge so many times. I mean, I think initially we said we were going to hand it in an X number of months and we needed more time. And the publisher, thank goodness, was like, take your time. And we were able to do it right. But the book never would have happened without you. And I'm eternally grateful. And people... I appreciate that. But I don't take a lot of credit. I just think certain literary collaborations happen in exactly the right time. And like I said, your note got to me at exactly the right time.

And we also had an agent who could sell the book at exactly the right time. And we didn't really know how much time it would take. But we allowed ourselves to explore the shaping of the story. And, you know, you pulled it off. And the other thing that I want to say that's important for people to understand that you're a comic, but you're an idiosyncratic, where I guess all comics are probably idiosyncratic. Not all, but most. But you have your own comedic style. It's quirky.

It's creative. And it's charming. And so, you know, you charm me. I may think you're... Oh, my goodness, right back at you. Getting to hang out in your office, I'm looking at your office right now and just getting to spend time with you on the phone and just everything that you've done, it's unbelievable.

No, I consider myself a pretty persistent person when I want something, persevere and try to make this happen. Now, we've never talked about this. When you, the Ray Charles book that you did, Brother Ray, when you did with Ray Charles, which really put you on the map. It got so much press and really, open doors. How many years did that take?

And the way that you went about it to finally make it make it happen was so unique and so smart to actually get everything in Braille to send it in Braille. You mean, you just got, you were tried for how long did that take you to make it happen?

It took a couple of years, but I think that's the other reason that you and I get along, because we're both kind of crazy, Ben. When it comes to pursuing a project and in the case of Ray it was like you and Johnny I mean

I just love Ray every since I was very young I always wanted to meet them and I came to L.A. I had written a book before I had done a bunch of journalism I got to you know I had a master's degree in literature but you know those weren't the right qualifications but I didn't care and I came to L.A. and I met his manager

and his manager wanted nothing to do with me So I was staying at a hotel not far from his office, and I called Western Union. I said, can you send telegrams of Braille? And they said, yes, for a dollar more as a service to the blinds. So I figured he'd be the only one in the office who could read Braille. And my pitches went into those telegrams were written in Braille, and I would send one every three days. And they were long. They were, you know, I love you.

I know your work. You've never told your story before. I think it's time to your story. And so he called me. And he said, who is this crazy man? Sending me tell Granthumbrayo, come on over. So I figured once I got in the room with him, he would feel that I was genuine.

And that's what happened. And so it became a really good collaboration. But the other important thing, and this applies to your book, as well. I didn't know that my main talent was as a ghost writer, so I thought I would just write a biography of them. And then my agent and other people convinced me that his autobiography would be more interesting, and it was certainly more interesting to me. So I wrote it in his voice, and in college, I never took a course in ghostwriting. I mean, it just didn't, don't even mention it.

And so in ghosting his book, I had no idea what I was doing, and I didn't really know what meant to channel a voice other than I did it. And when it was done, Ray liked it and people liked it. And I thought, what did I do exactly? And I think what I did was listen carefully to him. And it isn't like, at first I thought, okay, you take the transcripts of the interview and that's the voice. But it's not the voice because the transcript is talk. It's not literary.

It is an art. and art is based on artifice. I have to give the reader the idea that Ray is talking to them and I just did that in a natural way and I think it also applies to you because in writing your book

we determined at the very beginning this was going to be your book you were going to tell the story and together we worked that through I mean you were great as an editor as a co-writer

writing whole passages by yourself, you know, writing a whole chapter by yourself. So this idea of my understanding that my main job is to help people find their voice on the page. And the more open they were, and Ray was very open, you were very open. Other people were very open. Other people weren't very open.

And it's a struggle. But in your case, it was joyful because you were appreciative and also you're a humble. And I'm kind of humble in that I still don't know exactly what I'm doing. And it's just like, okay, let's allow this joint energy to work in us and let's be moved by a spirit. I know all this sounds, you know, new agey, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but it's ghost writing is mysterious. And I give you so much credit, mark because you were open to the mystery of the process. Now, it, now, it, now, of course, another part of the process was just hard work revision. And you were also super great at that. And, and, and, and, um,

you know, you got into the trenches, dig time we both did it was you talked me through it and we both did it together i was going to ask you what surprised you about johnny cars and watching him is one thing as a fan but then really we were we were digging in you were watching um a lot of old clips and we were just going through his his life from new york um some of his personal life but did anything surprise you well i was surprised at the end of this project i was surprised that i loved him more than when I began, I learned that his charm was genuine and his, and again, this is why the book was so helpful to me, and his genius was, you know, beyond impeccable comic timing and his whole

knowledge of history of humor and his relationship to the jack for any of the world and the bophock. Beyond all that the thing I learned the most and surprised me the most is how deep his loving spirit

was and that's why I love the fact that love is in the title because again this is going to sound gooping but I think watching clip after clip after clip you see that the overwhelming number of guests whom he interviews really love him. They don't like him.

They love him. And that goes from Frank Sinatra to Buddy Hackett to Buddy Rich to it goes on and on and on in all genres. And so that again galvanized my spirit and made me feel like what? Whatever his flaws were, and of course, you know, we put them in the book, it isn't sugarcoated at all. But what's overwhelmingly obvious is that the reason Johnny was loved as an icon in American culture, the reason he was loved is because he projected life. And you loved watching him. And comics love being interviewed by him.

actresses and actors and and he had a lightness to him and that's the other thing that I learned again. He had a light touch. He was easy

and and and and and and and and that light touch coming at the end of the day uh where you can try to put your troubles away and and escape uh was very very

deep and and and and very very rare and uh you know he was our pretensions he was self-effacing um he he just had so many great qualities that were uh manifest on the show and and and so the process of doing this book with you uh was joyful because johnny was joyful and watching these clips. I mean, I'm still going back and watching Don Rickles clips. And I mean, I can't stop. I mean, it's a major problem for me because I've got other books. I got to write and stop it, David. Stop looking at Johnny Clarkson. How many books have you done now? Is it 65 or 60? It's a bunch. It's, you know, it's, it's up there. But, but like I said, I really treasure this one and look back at our experience with a whole lot of.

gratitude because it made me happy. It made me happy in the way that I think Johnny made people happy. And you know this a lot better than I, but all the Johnny books and all the complaints about them and the Joan Rivers stuff and the Wayne Newton stuff. It's a handful of people. Yeah, that's a handful of people. A handful of people that want to bring out his salacious qualities or his, you know, his alcoholism or whatever the, it doesn't make any. It doesn't make any difference because we know after watching him for you know two decades we know he made us happy and and you can't take that away and like i said the glory of the fact that they're all not all of them but a monster amount of clips are available on youtube is further proof that he continues to be

well yeah the johnny cars and the official one that jeff sotson runs um has over a million subscribers it's like 1.1 and it's there's absolutely over a billion views on on um i think on that the official channel it's at some uh i think it's three quarters of or um 750 million some but um there's so many other million uh views that are all over the place yeah just saying how much they they love them i the realization i that i got that i don't feel like the other books really may have really emphasized was um And I think that you touched upon this is that when I did talk to Johnny's friends, the people that really knew him that spent time with him.

And his second wife said the same thing is that when he felt comfortable with the person and there was only a small group that he was almost the same Johnny you would see on the show. There was very little difference, maybe a little less regardless, as one of them said. But there is no way somebody said that you could do that for 30 years and not be yourself out there but you know it but he would when the camera was off he there was for self-preservation purposes and you know we go in in the book with how many people were threats against his life and how betrayed he was with certain people he knew and he just really had to protect himself that he kind of would be kind of people would observe as what cold and aloof would be was just self-preservation

more or less but just the whole realization that he that he that was him, when he hosted the show, that was really him, was something that I found. When I found that out, I just, it was, that was a big deal, I think. Yeah. And, and also, I think the other thing that I learned, and maybe because, you know, I'm 82, so that my watching Johnny, I've got more years away from that. And so this was like the renewal. This was like a re-learning process for me. But the other major thing that came out,

which warm my heart and warm me to your project even more, was his generosity. And I don't mean a philanthropic, all of that is there too, but on-camera generosity was comics, because when you look at the range of comics, he entertained from Carlin to Richard Pryor. to Buddy Hackett, on and on and on, and on.

And Rodney Dangerfield and Joan Rivers, he was just a great appreciator of comics, had no feeling of competition with them. And comics, you know, I had dealings with Milton Burrell. I did a couple of books with Stun Rickles. I did a book with Andrew Dice Clay. I mean, I've dealt a lot with comics. And comics are tough.

breed. They're ruthlessly competitive. And yet Johnny, again, we can go back to love, but Johnny's love of comedy and his appreciation of the variety of comedy is so apparent in these interviews. He's such a generous interviewer, and he's a great straight man and his flexibility, his kind of nuanced maneuverability to kind of adjust his attitude to the comic that's next to him I found extremely moving

and also, and this is going to maybe sound too deep for this thing, but also kind of helps me in my own life. I mean, in other words, part of our job in life is to listen to other people with our heart and listen appreciatively and listen generously and not have to kind of bud in and allow them to be who they are. So again, I mean, we did not obviously write a religious book, but I think when you get through, reading your book, Mark, but you do get this feeling like, oh, here's a man who had a lot

to teach us from a spiritual point of view. Love other people, listen to other people, allow other people to be who they are. Yeah, we talk about in the book, Peter LaSalle told me, and it's in the book about the one thing that Johnny's rule for the interviews were to make the guests look good, and it wasn't for him to get a laugh. That was not. The first thing was always about making the guests look good. The first 20 minutes or half hour, the monologue was all Johnny. The comedy bit was Johnny. And then it was all about the guest looking good. And if he could get a laugh, that would be great. And inevitably, laugh would come. But it was all about making the guests look good. And some of the hosts,

obviously do not do that. And are always trying to one up or trying to think about how they're going to be funny in response. And there was just something about what Carson did. It was, yeah, that made him special, I think. I agree. And also, I compare him, I don't really compare him so much to other comics. Obviously, he was influenced by Jack Benny, and he had certain wrists in certain facial techniques and certain gesticulations that he borrowed from other comics and other comics to do all that.

But I think, when I think about what Johnny's place, in the culture. I compare them to people like Louis Armstrong and Willie Nelson and people who have somehow touched the hearts of a whole lot of different kinds of people. And I think why we'll always be listening to, you know, William Armstrong or Willie Nelson and will always be going back and watching Johnny is because they just make us feel good. And they are able to to express humanity with a lightness

with a lightness and I there's a pun on that because I think they are light in their presentations I mean this is probably

a crazy analogy Louis and Louis and Johnny but beyond being light in their presentation they also carry light in other words they bring us into the They take us out of the kind of darkness of our day and brings us into light.

And I think that's why we're drawn to them. End of my metaphysical bullshit. I have to ask about what was it like working with Don Rickles and going to his home and spending so much time with him, obviously, one of Carson's most beloved guests. Well, I mean, you know, Don was great. And it was a kick in the head for me, happened, you know, rather late in my career. 82 now I probably met Don when I was 69 or 65 and he was older than me. And he was much different. I mean, he, I mean, he was, I'm salty and sometimes cranky.

He had some health problems when I was working on the book. But again, he understood. what I was up to. He knew I wanted to channel a voice. It's hard channeling a comic's voice because we already hear that voice in our heads. So to create a literary voice for him took a while, but ultimately he did it. I mean, he wasn't a reader. He mainly watched the Dodgers on TV and ate pastrami on Rye, but it was fun. And, you know, we went to Vegas to see him. I mean, he was very gracious, and when the book was over, it was a hit, and he took, he and Barbara took my wife and I out to eat. And, you know, so he was appreciative.

And it was interesting in his early career, of course, I was intrigued by his early career and how he got over, you know, and, you know, he idolized Milton Borough, and I grew up on Milton Burrough. So we had a whole lot in common. I remember he talked about opening for Charlie Barnett's band, which is the same as big band in the big band era. And then he apologized to me. And he said, I know you love music. And I wish I could tell you more music stories, but, you know, I don't have them. So, I mean, he was, you know, he knew who I was.

And he treated me well. And so it happened again at the time that it should have happened. He was older. He was in his 80s and he did the book. Yeah, it was fun. You know, I just read an interview with Paul Schaefer. I think it was Time Magazine. And he was saying he was at a Bon Jovi rehearsal.

And that's when he first met you. And you said, if you ever want to write a book, let me know. And he knew who you were. How often? And then you wrote the book with him. But first of all, what was it like working with Paul? And how often would that happen that you would meet somebody and think, you know what? They have a book in them.

And if you ever want to write something, let me know. I guess that would happen every so often. And it's still trying to happen. I mean, I'm still chasing after people that I want. I mean, I'm an unapologetic hustler. And I think then again, that's the reason I responded so well to you, because, you know, you have hustle energy. I try. Well, no, but you have it.

And I felt, in your note to me, that energy, it's happened a lot. I mean, where I meet people and say, I'd love to do your book. And it takes years, and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. And sometimes it does. In Paul's case, it was another joyful experience because Paul and I are, you know, I love Paul. And it's all music. And Paul has a great sense of humor, great comedic timing. Letterman who was Johnny the Air

I got to hear great Letterman stories and you know at the time Paul was living and he had a house outside New York he had an apartment in New York and apartment in Miami so I got to go to all those places and enjoy that and

Paul is pretty much the way he is on camera I mean he's he's you know he's got his own charm and and it allowed me to look into a world that had always intrigued me, which is the world of David Ledron, but also the world of S&L, and he's close to Marty Short. And, you know, he's got a great culture. He's got a great network and, you know, Canada and remote Canada.

And I love the whole thing. And it's going back to you and your book, I'm motivated by curiosity. And I think what kept me going with your book, which turned out to be much longer than I usually. Yes, we both. It was much longer than we thought. And it could have been twice as long because you just know so much. But I think what kept me going, and this is different than you, because you knew the stuff that's in the book before it was written. But I didn't. So I was motivated by curiosity. Like, what is the real Joan Rivers Johnny Carson story that's never been told in the kind of detail that you tell it? What is the real Wayne Newton, Johnny Carson's story? So a lot of what kept me enthusiastic and kept my energy up was curiosity. And I think that the reader of, I mean, I hope that all the people who will read this book will also be driven by curiosity because the other thing about Johnny is he's endlessly fascinated.

Oh, yeah. That's why I started the podcast. I had all these questions about him, him, how he did this show, who was hanging out backstage, who was holding the curtain open. And then suddenly I'm hanging out with Irving Davis in his home in Los Angeles. hearing the stories. You were mentioned on Carson's Tonight Show when Jay Leno was guest I was in when Smokey Robinson was on because you did his book, but he mentioned you, which was really nice. And I think I was mentioned, here comes my ego, so watch out. I think I was also mentioned when Paul was interviewed by Letterman and the book came out. I think that he only... Oh, yes. Yes.

But again, I'm okay with not being mentioned. And the other reason I was, eager to do your book is because I knew this moment would come when the book would be published and you would get to go out there and sell it and nobody can sell this book better than you can because you remain into theastic and you remain enamored of Johnny having learned everything there is to learn you probably love them more than you've ever loved them before and I think I'm so eager, and don't forget to give me all the links to all the shows you're going on, I'm so eager to watch you speak about all that. I'm trying. You've been so amazing to talk me through everything,

and I'm going to do my best to do the book justice. You know, I wanted to mention that I was watching today on YouTube. There's a YouTube clip of Marvin Gay was on Carson, and I think it was September of 67, and he's doing a duet. I wish I knew the woman's name. They sing Ain't No Mountain High Enough. Tammy Terrell? Yes. Yes.

You did Marvin Gay's book. How long did it take you to convince Marvin Gay to do the book with you? Well, that was another kind of hustle on my part. I'd done Ray Charles' book. I love the two other artists. And my kind of holy trinity was Ray Charles, Marvin Gay, and Aretha Franklin. And early in my career, I thought, okay, I'm going to get all of them. And I did, though.

Marvin took a long time. I wrote him a letter. I put in an album I loved that was negatively criticized and depressed. I thought the album was misunderstood. I thought it was a great album. It was called Hear My Dear. And I think once he saw in the press that I was writing articles in his favor, I got in. But, you know, I loved him.

But, you know, he went through hell and had a tragic ending. And because of that, the book could not be an as-told-ghost-written book because he was there to approve it. So I had to turn it into a biography and called Divided Soul. And that whole experience, the whole Marvin Gay experience, took five years. What are you in Belgium? How long were you with him in Belgium? Was that two weeks, three weeks. And that's where we wrote sexual healing together.

And that's another long story. But I look at all these things like I look at you and the book we did together. You can't predict anything. I mean, I mean, I put out my intentions, you know, like my intention was to write Ray. My intention was Ray Marvin or Aretha Franklin or BB King or Val Kilmer or, you know, all the different books I've done. I've had intentions. But you can't make it happen without the universe organizing itself in a way that it does happen. Again, I know that sounds kind of spacey.

but I really believe it I mean you came into my life at a time when I was doing a lot of other things and yet I could feel your spirit and I could feel your energy and I had a feeling if I responded

to it something would happen we would sort of manifest our energy our intentions and that's why it's so beautiful that you have this book in your hand then I have the book in my hand, and it's there.

I still can't believe just with everything that you've accomplished with so many books, and then you have a Grammy, and then you bring up sexual healing, which you have, yeah, you co-wrote with Marvin Gay, and at one point, he just thanked you in the notes, liner notes, and said that you had something to do with it, and then you, unfortunately, he was going through some things, and you had to sue to get your name on there, but you had the recordings of you making the song together, so i mean the courts his lawyer his own lawyer said that you wrote it with him so yeah well and also he said on the back of the album what he said was thanks david rich's brilliant um uh

literary mind for the title sexual healing so you can't copyright a title but then i had it on tape of us writing the lyrics and anyway it all his was a tragic life uh my experience with him was uh to me, invaluable, and I cherish it, and I cherish him. And I feel really blessed that I met him when I did. I was going to ask, do I have this, right, that Aretha Franklin took you 18 years to convince her to do a book with you? Yeah, because I met her early on with Ray, and she didn't want to do a book. And then one day I wrote her a note and said, I'm coming to Detroit. And I had written her hundreds of notes.

It's like you and your crazy relationship to the world. Johnny Carson and then I got a phone call and she said oh if you're in Detroit you know call me and I called her and she liked me and we wrote a book and I didn't think the book very good because I don't think she really came to terms with the real facts of her so I waited in another 15 years and I wrote a biography of her because I knew so much about her and knew all her I knew her family I knew her producers I knew the world. So that's another, so it's interesting of the three people who I wanted to write about, I got to write about all of them. Ray was the first. It was relatively easy. Marvin was

damn near impossible, but it happened and, you know, thank you, Jesus. And, and, and, and, and, and, Rita, I wrote two books. And so it's messy, but it's a tribute to spirit. You know, because like I said, I have learned over the years to be led by spirit and to appreciate the mystery of life and the mystery of how we meet people. and when we do meet people, what happens? And I think that applies to our book that we met at the perfect time. You had an open heart about what the book should be and how you needed to work.

You were humble enough to say you need help. I just could not imagine doing this, the process. It just was so overwhelming. And then to have somebody like you there is my Yoda. up and then to talk me through everything. But you also have to, I mean, my heart was open and I felt humble because I just knew what the average person knew about John. I mean, I was not a scholar like you.

I was not, I had a superficial understanding of it all. And I was grateful to you that you were willing to sign up with a person who had so much to learn. So I think it was a matter of us teaching each other and both of us not having to feel like, you know, one of this is in control. And you were sort of the perfect collaborator because to me, these relationships have to be lateral, have to be, you know, as has to be, you know, have to be horizontal because, you know, I can't feel like I'm the boss. it's great that you didn't feel like you were the boss we never had a single argument we know we talked for hundreds of hours and I think we each of us listened to each other deeply

and I think because we respected each other we knew that whatever we were talking about the answer should be is it going to help the book or hurt the book as opposed to hey this is me I've written all these books you've got to listen to me or you're telling me

hey this is me I know everything there isn't to know about Chinese cards and you don't know what you're so I think we're kindred spirits and because of that there was harmony and I'm really really grateful for that

I am too and I feel like we really did tell the truth I mean Johnny on his Tonight Show would talk about his drinking his struggles he said he would have just that one that extra drink and it would turn him into Attila the Han. And we go into some of that. He talked about being overly competitive, which was something he really struggled with. And that's a theme, I think, throughout the book. So definitely there's, we go into things that he struggled

with. Another person that you, that went on with Carson that Johnny really enjoyed that you got to work with multiple times was Willie Nelson. What was your experience like with Willie? Well, it still is. I'm still, I'm doing another book with you. Oh, wow. Is that your third with him? No, I think it's the Okay. Fifth through sixth. I think it's the sixth. It's great. You know, he's a, he's a beautiful man.

He's a beautiful spirit. At 92, he's still working, did 100 dates, still writing songs. I mean, like I said, you know, I'm 82. He's 92. So he's like a role model for me that you can work through your 80s and still be creative and and and um keep it together and and and so um you know it's a privilege you know and i've been very blessed uh that that people will entertain my own style and mark you know my

style at this point and my style is very assertive and i work with a lot of energy and and sometimes it's too much for people and, you know, I want to get it done and that kind of energy. And so Willie's very responsive to all that. And he's got a unique voice, which I love, and he's behind the bead. And so, you know, so these books are, you know, I feel like I'm making music when I write these books with Willie. And at the same time, he's relaxed. so he's not a demanding collaborator at all so enables me to relax a bit and um also let me you know go back to your book because this is something that's occurring to me right now every book i've written i've written with the person alive and in person in other words

Ray and Marvin and Reese and Bee-B King and the Neville Brothers and on on. They're all people who I knew. And I've never written a book until now about a person who I never knew. So again, I broke my rule. My rule has always been, don't do a book if you don't know the person personally, because that's my strong point. It's the channel of voice and I have to hear the voice. The reason I made an exception in this case, and even though you never met Johnny and, you know, he was gone, you know, long before you begin this process, I was convinced that your tenacity and your spiritual relationship to Johnny was so great that together we could make him come alive in this book, which I think we did. Now, you did it more than me.

Oh, no, we did. And it is one of those things. We talked on the phone a bunch of times and we, we, we, we, you asked me questions. I asked you questions. And then we at one point, we're like, let's, let's see what happens. And yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but again, that's why I went against myself. In other words, had I not been convinced that your love of Johnny would enable you to, um, write a book that honored him and, conveyed his humor and his charm and all this stuff, I would have never got into it, ever, ever, ever. But your, and then listening to your podcast and, you know, just the overview of your research. And what I loved about your research was it was crazily inclusive. I mean, there wasn't anybody you wouldn't interview who knew something about Johnny.

and it was exhaustive. And so we always had a gold mine. It was a question of, you know, how we turned a gold mine into a book and, you know, how we melt down the gold or whatever the metaphor, running out of metaphorical stuff to say. But we were always dealing with an abundance of riches. And that was because of your work. And I had such great respect for that, I thought, okay, this is going to be hard because it's a long book going over a long career, but I'm working with a person who is the opposite of lazy, I mean energetic and conscientious, and that person has the ability to sustain his enthusiasm because a lot of,

I won't mention them, but a lot of collaborations I've had marked with people. They just go away after we get to deal, and I can't get them on the phone, and it's rough because they don't prioritize. And this has been a number one priority for you for years. How many years? Four years, I think. Something like that, yeah. No, no, no.

I don't mean just this book. Oh, gosh, 13, I think. I started the podcast in February. 2014 started the interviews the year prior 2013 so yeah so that's 12 years yeah so you have a dozen years yeah it's on where where you have been

you've been driven and and and again I think that's the other thing maybe that's another topic of this book maybe that's one of the subject is drive and maybe that's one of the reason where we're able to do it because I'm driven still an old age you're driven in young age

and Johnny was driven that's true yeah Johnny was driven and I think part of what we try to do and I think it is one of the through lines of the book is to

understand and document Johnny's drive like you said he was competitive as most entertainers have to be but his drive to excel and his drive to

hone his craft and his appreciation of the craft we have we have him at one point in in his apartment at the u.n plaza i believe it was 1971 and he has four television sets all set up and he's watching his show at 1130 and then you have dick cavett david frost and it's i think it was murph griff or cavit i mean it was all his competition so i mean the man this competition his competitive streak we we really do do show i do want to mention your idea it was your idea for the title love johnny carson and to me me personally it meant there were just so many people I talked to that I spoke with for the

podcast and while I was doing this book they would just say I love Johnny Carson oh I loved Johnny Carson so when you had that came up with the title it was a really good fit and people really liked it so I'm glad you did that and another thing that went against my instinct just because it's not my favorite thing that I think hopefully people I've told by a few people that have read the book already that they really liked it was you having me me do an introduction about myself in the beginning. I'm not comfortable with it initially, just because I'm like, it's about Johnny. It's not about me.

But I think you were right. I think it does help maybe just to show the readers my journey and who is this guy and why does he care about the subject matter for the people that didn't listen to the podcast, or even if they did, just the backstory. So I do appreciate you doing that. And that was important to me for you to establish yourself. as the storyteller because you are the Johnny storyteller. And again, like Johnny, you're a generous storyteller in that, I don't know,

it would be interesting for us to put it through AI and maybe AI could give us the answer. But a lot of this book, and I'm going to ask you how much of it, is you're channeling the voice of others talking about Johnny. So there's a lot of first-person narration on your first-person narration on your part but but we whenever we can we allow the witness to use his or own his or her own voice and i think that's the other thing you know here we are kind of praising our own book but who cares uh but raise away david everybody please get loved johnny cars and now available on all platforms Right. But I think the other thing that makes a book so interesting is that there's so many people talking about Johnny. It isn't like one thing I wanted to avoid, and we didn't even argue about this because it came to you naturally because that's what you've been doing for 12 years. But one thing I wanted to avoid was an egotistical narrator telling the reader, I know everything about Johnny. I understand who he was. Listen to me. And there is none of that. There's a humility.

to it, which I hope reflects Johnny's humility because he knew in his mind he was not as great as comic as Richard Pryor. He was not as great a comic as George Carlin. I mean, he was a different kind of comic. He was great in his own way, but he had humility. He was not afraid to present geniuses like Jonathan Winters

and so I think it was your humility that began this whole process 12 years ago when you're talking about Johnny is I'm here to learn and so as the reader reads this

book what I hope they're going to feel is you learning about Johnny beginning from a position of love because there's no way to hide the fact that you love him and you're motivated by love but you also get out of the way so many times and there's no pontification on your part

there's there's there's no know-it-allness on your part so to me one of the reasons I love you so much is because you are humble even when you know so much and that's a very rare thing most people who know as much as you know about any one topic are impossible to talk to because all they want to do is tell you their point of view

and show you how much they know and you are on a show-off and you're a what-I-can-learned kind of guy and I enjoy that so much about you and that again is what made the process so pleasurable and I have a feeling

when people read the book they're going to feel that they're going to feel they're in the hand of a person who is crazy for Johnny but knows there's a world of information out there to learn. And let's go learn this together. And we're going to have a good time along the way because Johnny had a good time. Yeah, for 30 years. One of somebody I talked to that was friends with him for decades said that Johnny confessed near the last couple of years of his life that the happiest times were on the show

when he was himself doing the initial hour and 45 minutes if people can believe he had an hour in 45 minutes and then it went to 90 minutes and then 60 minutes but it was still just so much fun and adrenaline and yeah he loved it and also let me say in again us hawking the book which I'm happy to do because I am so proud of having work with you on the book

But the other thing that I think is great about the book, it's coming out at a time when the whole platform is going away. I mean, the seismic changes in American television and American culture where in two years there probably won't be any talk shows, as we know them now, because they're proving financially. The model. Yeah, the model's gone. And so what we've done, I mean, I say we, but you always more than me, is create, recreate a time and a place when this particular form of entertainment was at its very height. And it was engineered by a man who had comedic genius, but comedic genius of a comedic genius of a very very, very particular time, and that almost went against the tradition of comedy, which you have one guy taking up all the energy. You know, you have, you have, you know, Bill Cosby or George

Carlin or Duke or Lenny Bruce or just commanding everything. And Johnny's comedic genius, of course, was collaborative. He was a collaborator as an entertainer. And so I love the fact that the book is now coming out at a moment when this genre is disappearing and you've been able to capture this genre at its height and it's still entertaining. I can't believe that he's been off the show now for 33 years. It does not feel that way. I remember where I was when I watched the final.

show in May of 92, but the clips on YouTube and clips beyond that aren't for public, that aren't available to the public just to watch that the collection, so much of that stuff still holds up. And, you know, the day this is being released, it's the day of our book launches October 21st of 2025. And in two days on October 23rd, two things. One, that is Johnny's 100th birthday, which is amazing. October 23rd. he turns 100 and then also that night I will be in New York City signing books at book culture on 112th street between Broadway and Amsterdam at 7 o'clock so you want to come out and then I will be going to other places I'll be announcing soon around the country so stay tuned for that but

David I can't thank you enough for your friendship and this has been just wonderful to hear some of these stories I didn't know in detail so just to hear them from you of with people you've worked with, and I'm just so grateful to you for your friendship and that we got to do this. Well, and I'm grateful to you, and I'm excited. This is a beautiful moment

when after years of hard work and revisioned, you have a book in your hand, and I look forward to hearing you on all these interviews and will always feel gratitude in my heart that you reached out to me. Thank you, sir. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode.

On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.