Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Inside Late Night: Jonathan Groff

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

This week on LateNighter's Inside late Night podcast, former 'Late Night with Conan O'Brien' head writer Jonathan Groff joins Mark Malkoff to discuss O'Brien's writers’ room, and the moments when crisis pushed the show to its sharpest work.Make sure to follow us on social media (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) and subscribe on all podcast platforms and YouTube ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to never miss an episode!

from latenighter.com, it's inside late night with Mark Malkoff. Hey, everybody, John Schneider, back here from Late Nighter, getting you set up for Mark's conversation today with Jonathan Groff, who was once a writer for the John Stewart Show, and then eventually became the headwriter for late night with Conan O'Brien. Jonathan joins Mark to tell some great stories about his career in late night in an interview that was reported in two parts, so just want to give you a heads up. For that, you'll be hearing the whole interview today, but at some point you may notice. that the camera switches to different angles because it was recorded over two different days. But we are so thrilled to have Jonathan here on the podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation between Mark and Jonathan Groff. Jonathan Groff, nice to see you.

Nice to see you, Mark. How's it going? Good. Now, the last time I saw you, and we've met a bunch of times, but this was a long time ago when you were at Conan. The last time I saw you was literally the day before you were moving. You and your wife were moving to Los Angeles. You were still in New York. I remember running into you.

I think it was in the Chelsea area is my recollection. I'm guessing if I had to guess like 8th Avenue, maybe something around there, maybe in the 20s. And I ran into you. And I just said hi to you and we'd met a bunch of time. And you told me, you're like, I'm moving to Los Angeles tomorrow. So yeah, that was the last time. That would have been, let's see, probably July of 2002. I moved that summer.

I left Conan as the head writer in September of 2000 and managed to stay in New York a couple more years while doing half hour stuff and actually working on that TV show Ed that was created by other late night people, Rob Burnett and John Beckerman. And then the jig was up. I made a pilot. I made two pilots while still living in New York.

And then they were like, you got to move to L.A. And so we bought a house in L.A. And my wife was pregnant, so we had our second kid in L.A. I remember you telling me that you were Did a pilot for Jason Bateman taking place in Chicago where he was a school teacher? Do I have that right? What an incredible memory. Yes, that's exactly right.

And it had actually gotten ordered to series and had been announced in May. We made seven episodes of it. It was called The Jake Effect. You can find it on YouTube. It might even be somewhere on, I don't know if I guess Universal doesn't really have like a website. They used to have it on some Universal archive. But I think you can find it on YouTube. It was a cool show.

it was a single camera, kind of fast-moving, strong narrator telling Jason Bateman's character story, Jake. And yeah, he was living in Chicago and being a school teacher, and it was, it was Bateman's first big single-camera job before he got arrested development. And he was really good in it. And I think it made its way. We only made seven episodes in NBC. Never put it on the air. but it made its way over to Fox and to the studio that made Regency, I think TV, which had something to do with arrested, or I guess that was also obviously imagine. But anyway, they saw Jason and he was so good in it, and I think it helped him get that the arrested development gig. Basically, I am completely responsible for Jason's success. One thousand percent, and he will acknowledge this in writing, I have it in a file right here.

exactly so you've done so much in in your career i told robert smigel once that and i said this on the podcast that i feel like the strongest in terms of the writing when conan was when robert was head writer the early on years and when you were there and um you hired some really really funny people like great cohen who did the search for grady and people like tommy blotcha just really big staples wasn't was brian stack one of your hires Yes, I actually didn't hire Tommy Blatcham. Marsh McCall hired him in the spring of 95. And I think Marsh also hired Brian McCann around the same time.

I don't think I hired Brian. I think my first real hire was Brian Stack because once Tommy got comfortable and settled in, we didn't really have any attrition right away until Tommy actually broke his leg so horribly. he was going to miss a bunch of work. So I got to hire. Greg was one of the first people I hired, and then Brian Stack. And then I did hire like John Glazer,

which I'm pretty proud of. Oh, he was great over there. Very prolific. Someone like Tommy, though, I found so interesting because Andy knew him previously. They were friends. Tommy, you know,

had been in the Army, not a traditional, maybe with comedy writers of this generation. And I heard Conan talk about this once, that there was almost nothing in his writing packet that would have been usable on the show, which is very rare, because normally if somebody submits something, you're writing for Letterman, you're writing for whatever. It's stuff that would easily get on. And Conan went on to say that. I think his first cycle, he got almost nothing on at all,

which a lot of shows are gone. But Tommy was such an impact on that show. Did you ever see Tommy's packet, what was it like for him to get hired with stuff that didn't necessarily fit the show? So I started in January of 1995. Mike Sweeney and I were hired at the exact same time. And Marsh McCall hired me and Mike. And then I think his next hire was Tommy. And I think it was very much of a trust me situation. There's this famous sushi chef in L.A. called, I forget his first name, but his last name was Nuzawa. And he has a bunch of great, amazing sushi restaurants in, in L.A. And he has a, basically you go into his restaurant, his original restaurant in a studio city, and it's, there's just a thing, trust me, which is,

don't ask questions, just let me serve you great food. And I think to some extent, Tommy was a trust me from Andy Richter. And Andy had such, you know, credibility and cloud, especially at this point in the show. And he was proving to be so funny. And he was a funny writer. I think Andy was a little bit like to Conan. Yeah, he's great. Tommy's brilliant. You love him. And then I bet there was stuff in the packet.

I didn't look at the packet. I don't remember because I was just the staff writer. That was probably funny, but it was too weird to probably get or too out there. But I think, and I do remember Marsh at the time sort of saying like almost in confidence, like, yeah, Tommy, I don't know. Like, I'm not sure. And I think Conan's recollection is kind of right. I just think he got comfortable. I think I just,

Tommy Blatchett is one of the funniest pin you to your seat, hilarious people you will ever meet in your life. And I think as a colleague of his for the first four or five months, like I just was so delighted by how funny he was that when I got the head writer gig, maybe I was better at seeing what his strengths were. But I also think it's just he got comfortable. The show got more and more of its own sea legs.

And I think he just, but he was such a huge part, literally I was just thinking this morning about what you and I might talk about, and I was remembering a favorite Tommy thing, which was embryonic rockabilly polka-dotted fighter pilots, which was just this random satellite TV channel that he pitched and executed. And he was a great producer, too. Like his stuff always looked great and he had a great feel for music. And he was always somebody we could send on remotes with Conan or Andy and he'd come up with hilarious stuff.

I remember when he did the gats. And they did it a bunch of times. And you, I think you were the one that put, the first person to come out. And it was like the third time they did it or something and put catch up on the gash, on the hot dog or the gaseous wiener. I don't know if you remember that. They would throw you in sometimes. Every once in a while, yeah.

I remember that when Tommy broke his leg that summer, I think it was the summer of 97 or spring of 97. And he was really, it broke it so badly. He literally could not work. Like he had to be homebound for months. We did a letter writing campaign for the gaseous weiner to cheer him up and people would write and sent photos and fan fiction essentially or fan art. It was pretty cool. I remember an act five with you and I thought you might have done it more than once.

Were you? Didn't you were an audience member with really long hands? Do I have that right? I can't remember that. Oh, and maybe like I reached in and touched something. They did some movie magic or something. It could have been. I didn't remember doing that.

It was something like that. Would another writer throw you in? Would you occasionally, since you have stand-up experience, would you throw yourself in bits? Or how would that work when you normally would show me on camera? Every once in a while, like, you know, if I had the right look or the right feel, I remember Brian Rich just thought I would be funny doing, he did a bit where it was something about like how smell lines could levitate even real people, like cartoon smell lines could levitate. real people. And I remember I got first time, I think it was the only time I ever flew,

which is they cut up with that rig that actually lifts you up and, you know, Peter Panze you across the stage. And I got to be in one of those ones. I think Brian cast me not partly because I had this kind of earnest wide-eyed look to me and kind of, you know, clean-cut thing. And I just was this goofy guy who like gets levitated by cartoon smell lines and flown into scenes. I don't even remember what the bit was. I also, I am a victim. As much as America is a victim, of the election recount in 2000, which resulted in George W. Bush being elected. I was a victim because I did a pretty good Al Gore,

and because he was not elected president, I did not get to be the lips, but just a few times. I'd already left the show by the time anyway. I left the show in, I guess, fall of 2000. I was moving on, but I'm still in New York, and I would have been happy to be the guy who would have been Al Gore. but I just remember I said, Conan, I won the popular votes. I am popular.

So that was my... That's really strong. I used to see you over at Saturday Night Live. I would get myself in. Sometimes people would be nice enough to get me up to the green room, which was on the ninth floor, overlooking the studio, and I'd see you sometimes. And I wanted to know what that experience was like going to the show. Will Farrell was on the cast that year.

I think that was his first year and people like Sherry O'Terry and Catan, and Norm was still doing an update. Well, I mean, you know, the whole, I mean, just working in 30 Rock in general was like walking into like a temple on some level like I loved. And I didn't ever lose sight of that, working in that building, coming in the first floor and the murals are incredible. And so much had happened there, Johnny Carson and Arturo Tuscanini and the NBC Orchestra and Saturday Night Live, of course, and Letterman and all these people.

that you sort of felt influenced by and stood on the shoulders of. So it was incredible to be in that building and to get to, you know, have this sort of ringside seat or sort of backstage-ish, like, you know, access to Saturday Night Live was incredible. I will say that I didn't go as much as I kind of probably should have, partly because I think, you know, I worked so much in that building all week, and the Kona job was really hard and we had late hours. Like the idea of going in on a Saturday night was kind of like,

I don't know if I have the energy to be in that building, even to see something fun like Sary and Life. But when I did go, it was just so cool. And there were a lot of writers on our show, this whole Chicago world of writers like Brian Stack and McCann and Tommy Blatchett and Andy and so on who had lots of friends. And we would met Tina Faye and later Amy Poehler and people like that, you know, who were there. And then, yeah, I remember going out, literally going out for drinks with a bunch of people. write like during Will's first week, including Will, right, you know, I know very peripherally to this day, but it was just very, it was cool to be at the center of the universe in a way, which is what Saturday Night felt like every Saturday Night and still does, I think. And then, you know, if you're really smart and lucky, you would plan your visits. We had to go visit our graphics department and review material sometimes, and they were up on a separate area, kind of across and above Saturday Night Live. So we had to cross through. 8H studio sometimes, which you weren't supposed to always do, but sometimes you could sneak and see a band rehearsing for the week, you know, on Thursday afternoon and stuff. So it was,

it was pretty incredible. When you were at Conan, one person that I always would tune in no matter what, and there weren't a lot of these type of guests was Norm MacDonald. You know, he would either crush, once in a while he would just, you know, completely fall on his face. But when he crushed, Nobody crushed more than normal. What was it like to be on the studio floor for that? Would you talk to him at all if you were a stand-up during the breaks at all or backstage before the show? What was Norm? What was your impression of him?

I got to work with Norm before he was Norm kind of, I mean, before he was, like, famous. I think in 1988 or 89 at Catcher Rising Star in Cambridge, I was, I middled for him. He headlined. And we all had seen him. He so immediately popped when he came on TV. So I think there was a show that George Schlatter produced. It was like a compilation of comedians stand-up show. You may remember the name of it because I have a feeling you're the kind of guy who remembers all of that kind of stuff.

But it was a compendium of clips, and a bunch of us had seen him. I think it aired in prime time or somewhere in late night or something. And so a bunch was like, oh, that guy just was, there's something different and funny and specific about him. So he was packing, bringing in all these comedians from Boston, you know, who were fans of comedy, who were showing up to see Norm. And I got to know him a little bit that week, super nice guy, kind of aloof in his way. Like he sort of never knew if he was putting you on with some of his, like, bio material. Like, are you married? Do you what?

What exactly? Like he kind of felt like everything was a little bit of a bit. But then I was always so thrilled to see him. I'm not so great friends with him. But, you know, we would say hello when we were friends. But I will say that one of the times I vividly remember is I was standing in the studio 10 feet away when he did his incredible Courtney Thorne Smith, chairman of the board, you know, how do you spell board, V-O-R-E-D riff with about Karatop, which was, you know, a sort of clippable late-night moment to this day and made him kind of legendary. And I also know that, you know, to the credit of Conan and Jeff Ross and Frank Smiley, who was the segment producer and really was the, and Paula Davis, who were the lead people on getting comics on. They saw how brilliant he was, I think even before Letterman did. So I think we did a lot, or I shouldn't say we, the show did a lot for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, kind of, like these ultimate talk show. And Conan just, it's one of those people that just killed Conan, you know, you know, tickled him so much. So he was so excited to have him on always.

Yeah, Conan did such a good job of pretending that he would be horrified by some of the outrageousness of Norm. But you could tell he was loving all of it. Norm told me once, he's like, when I do Letterman, because Letterman was his hero, he would just prepare every little set syllable he would say. And just it was all this pressure. But said, when he would go on Conan, it's just like, you know, I'm just going to show up and wing it. I mean, I don't know if Norm, that's true, if he completely winged it. I'm sure he sat down with a pre-interview. But just being that relaxed and being that comfortable,

I don't know if he would have felt comfortable to doing the same on Letterman in terms of some of the stuff that the risque stuff. I don't know how that would have played. I think that's true. I think Letterman didn't, I don't know Letterman at all, but he projected a vibe that that wasn't something he was that comfortable with, A, B, huge, huge audience,

difference in, you know, scope and scale. And then it's on 1130 show versus 12. I mean, all that sort of obvious reasons. And then Conan is, you know, I think personally is, you know, had a sort of underdog, you know, outsider status from being 1230 and being Conan and then the tone of the show and his origin story in terms of getting the show and keeping the show and building this audience. So I think it was, you know, I'm sure it was its own kind of pressure because you wanted to do well. and the cool kids were watching Conan,

so you want it to do well in front of the cool kids, I'm sure if you're norm. But there probably also was a vibe. I think Andy helped, you know, on that show enormously to create this sense of, it's just funny people sitting around, you know. It didn't feel weird, I don't think, to be on that show. I was never a guest on the show,

but I'm guessing it never felt weird, unless you were weird and made it weird, which people did. Who did make it weird? Well, before I was there famously, and Conan probably is tired of anybody ever talking about it, Eartha Kitt did not understand who she was talking to. So there's a famously awkward interview with him, with her. I remember Juliet Benoche felt like above it all, kind of,

and he was a little bit like, what was that? And then, you know, just my personal recollection of Bill Maher was kind of like sort of chat on the late night audience, the studio audience, and like, you people don't know anything, kind of a thing. And Conan was very, I think Conan was pissed. because he was defensive of his audience, you know, and I think Bill sort of took the liberty.

I mean, I don't know Conan was pissed, but I'm guessing he would have been because he was taking a shot at his audience. That was Bill Maher, you said? Bill Maher did that, yeah. I remember. But, I mean, Bill Maher was a really good guest and knew how to do the shows, but...

You were there when there was a studio fire and then you did the show with the skating rink. What was... What all happened in terms of the timing? That was a crazy day. I was there. I was head writer. And we, that was such an insane day because there was a studio fire.

And then we, we spent the first part of the morning. I think we started, I went in early to work because I think, I can't remember exactly when the fire had happened during the night, I think. But we drove out to CNBC headquarters in Sycogos, New Jersey, to think about doing the show out there. And that took us a couple hours in the morning. before we decided to do the show outside that night. And I remember Samuel L. Jackson, I believe, was the guest.

Yes, and Catan. And Catan, yeah. And it turned out great. It was one of those ones where, like, you know, Conan is so funny because I think he loves to be very prepared. And it's like he loved to have, that's why I think it was one of the hallmarks of the show that Robert and Smigel and Conan really, you know,

held up at the beginning was like, we're not making fun of doing a show. We're doing a show, and we're going to try to have bits, the sketches work on their own and not be stuff that just is there for the host to make fun of. Having said that, and that's why he liked to be prepared and he liked rehearsal, and he liked us to have good, beginning, middle, and ends to our sketches and to our bits.

All that being said, like, when he had his back against the wall and had to improvise and had to deal with, like, adversity, he was, of course, incredible. Maybe because he was so prepared, it made him more ready to be, you know, loose. You and Mike Sweeney started on the same day. Mike Sweeney took over the warm up from Joel Goddard, who had a tough time with it. He said this before, and Mike really brought a great energy to the audience. Did Mike, to your knowledge, do a writer's packet?

Or was he just kind of hired on being funny? He was a really funny stand-up. So I could see them bypassing the process. Obviously, you did a packet, which I'm going to ask you about in a little bit. But to your knowledge, did he do a packet? Well, it's so funny. I think he will, Mike and I were friends before working there. And we were actually working side by side downtown at HBO downtown productions.

He was the writer for Laura Kightlinger's show, a stand-up show called Stand-Up Stand-Up, which was a clip show on Comedy Central that was, you know, just Clip Shoe. of comedians and I was the writer for short attention span theater, which was the show Mark Marin hosted that I think John Stewart had hosted a few years before and then Marcus Allen or whatever. And Mark, they kind of reimagined it with Mark as the host. And I got hired as the writer in like early 94, I think it was. And Mike Sweeney came in to write for Laura Kylinger, who he was tight with. And he's so funny. And we were working like down the hall from each other. And I think we heard that there were a couple of openings because Louis C.K. was moving out.

on. Dino Stamatopoul was moving on. Marsh McCall was going to become the headwriter. So we both applied. I think he did do a packet. I think he had an inside track because Conan thought he was funny and he'd done such a great job with warm up. But he did, as far as I know, he did do a packet. What was your packet, like if you remember? I remember Conan sets one of your ideas, because it's a list of two pages of ideas. I believe it was some choir, that beautiful music, but they were insulting Conan, but it was like, no, but listen to them, their, their voice. It was so, well, that bit is, was my, that bit was made my career on some level because it was a, it was a bit where basically it was an idea of like a barbershop quartet or a doo-wop singing band, like

turned into a doo-wop thing. And Andy has found them. The premises that Andy discovered them singing at a club late night in Times Square or something. And he thought it would be great to have him on the show. So he's invited and Conan's like, that sounds great. And then they come out and they're singing these beautiful duop melodies and harmonies and all that kind of stuff. But all the songs are about like what a big, pasty, weird, freaky guy Conan is. And like he's freckled and long-legged and a weirdo.

And they would sing a verse and Conan would be like, Andy. And Andy be like, oh, don't even pay attention. to the words. With this kind of music, it's just really about the harmonies and the melodies and how they interact. And it did really,

really well. That bit, so I handed in my submission packet and Louis C.K. was a friend of mine, saw that bit, and he goes, we could do that bit.

We need a bit for Thursday night. He hadn't left yet. He was still there. We need a bit like this week. Would you be okay with us doing that bit even before you get hired? And I was like, uh,

yeah. So they did that bit and it was kind of like you're going to get a job now, but they couldn't make it official. And then the bit did really well. And I believe Carol Leifer, who I, whenever I see her, I give her credit. He was friends with Jeff Ross, the producer. And she called up like the next day and he was like, yeah, it was a really funny bit on Conan last night where these dukewops singers came out and shit all over Conan and Andy booked them. And it was really funny. He's like, oh, yeah, that's this guy we're probably going to hire as a writer, blah, blah, blah.

So I always give her credit to. And Louis, of course, like, was a friend and also did that for me, which was pretty awesome. But yeah, that was one of, that was in my packet and was produced before I got there. The other one that was in my packet that we ended up doing later was a late night was Conan's publicist, Ira. Oh, I love that, Smigel. Oh, my goodness. Smigel did the voice. Smigel knew about, I think looked at the packets, even though he wasn't there anymore.

He was leaving his head writer. but I think he looked at the packets and helped sign off on me and so I think he remembered that bit and maybe when I was when we said let's, Conan said let's do that or Marsh McCall said let's do that. Maybe it was Marsh actually thought of Robert as for the voice

of it. And actually we I'm trying to think there may not even have been a character associated with it. It might have just been the idea that there was this publicist who was overcharging Conan because whenever the words late night would be appear in an ad anywhere. He

would send Conan a bill. So like, you know, open late nightly special for some restaurant in like Kenosha, Wisconsin. He goes, Conan, I need that's, now that's $250. That's excellent placement for your show and like on all these like vandalistic things that he had done to put Conan's name out there. He was all about getting Conan's name out there and charging him a premium fee for it. And Robert did a phone interview as Ira, you know, calling up Conan to demand payment for these things. It was so much funnier. And Smigel's hilarious on his own, but to, do it with just his voice and just the phone. And I remember there was a riot and somebody held up Conan's,

a picture of Conan or something like that. But they did that a few times. He did a picture of Conan. He did bad Photoshop. I think he had like a big state funeral or something in the Middle East or something and had like a photo there. People rioting. Yeah.

He's like, look at this placement. I got you, Conan. I love that sketch I love that bit I was going to ask you a wussy wagon weren't you in the wissy wagon and who came up with that I just remember you in it I thought at least one I think I was in it I think that was an example of like the wussy wagon was a bunch of guys in suits generally holding briefcases kind of matching gray suits being wheeled through the studio crying and whining in an enormous wagon that our incredible prop and construction department built for us that I think I think the stage hands pulled through it. And I think it was a Brian McCann bit. It feels like a Brian McCann bit. And he was one of the lead wusses in the wagon, sort of in the front. But I think I was in it once or twice.

And then I know that one of our, and you may remember this, one of our proudest moments was we got James Woods, who politically is not my favorite guy in the world, but was a good talk show guest. And he agreed to get in the wussy wagon and be hauled out of the studio, which was kind of a coup for us. Yeah, when people do bits, especially people that are known for more drama,

Greg Cohen, Conan said once, was not capable of writing a topical joke, but he would come up with all these brilliant ideas. Can you talk about Greg's contribution to Cohen? Yeah, he was not, like some of the stuff that we would do at the top of the show that was kind of, you know, the stuff you do to kind of turn the lights on

and get the show going. And that Conan liked to do, like desk piece type stuff, like actual items, or he was not as much that into, he hated celebrity related humor, so sort of topical jokes just didn't appeal to him. And he would shrug and kind of be like, I,

you know, I don't know how to write those and I don't really want to write those. But then he would like sit on, you know, not have anything on the show for two weeks and then have this brilliantly well-produced bit that was sort of signature and landmark, whether it was, you know, the song remains the same parody or the crazy bit he did with Rip Taylor and William the refrigerator Perry that I think Frank Smiley helped with too. And so he was one of those guys who kept the spirit, I think the kind of renegade banana's spirit of late night alive.

And he was super valuable. But I think he also probably got a little frustrated at times with things because it was maybe he was like, oh man, I don't want to do, you know, celebrity tombstones again, which I understand, even though. sometimes gave you great jokes. I was going to ask, when Johnny Carson didn't like what the writers had, it was Stump the Band or Blue Cards, it was initially Blue Cards, and if he didn't like the blue cards, it was stumped the band. And I was going to ask if there was ever an issue with the writing, was it, did it, did Conan say we're doing plastic surgery or we're doing if they made it?

Because they're both, for me at least for writers, let's look at day off. And it was not a day off for Blue Cards. that was very hard. For Stump the band, it would have been for the writers, but was that ever a thing? I mean, it's just,

it seemed like it probably wouldn't have taken that much from a comedy writer's standpoint. Well, that was the tricky thing. It wouldn't take that much from the writer's standpoint, but you couldn't produce it fast enough to be, to be like an emergency desk bit. If the desk pit bit was a complete disaster.

So, generally what I tried to do was give Conan enough options. Like if it's a desk bit that is like a bunch of things that he's holding up and talking about and whatever like, you know, celebrity resumes or even staring contests, you know, like a bit like that, have ones that he could cut that would be like that's just not as good. So you felt like you had some editorial leeway. But there was like, yeah, it would be easy enough for maybe the writers to brainstorm and come up with a, uh, uh, uh, celebrity, you know, before they, if they made it or whatever, or a celebrity plastic surgery or whatever. But that was a super time-consuming for the graphics department. We had an incredible

graphic artist named Kevin Frank and then Ann Albucalli and Marty Geller were also in that department. Marty was great. But Kevin was like really brilliantly talented, but he couldn't only, you know, what looked easy from a writing perspective and kind of was day offish was not easy from a production standpoint. So we had to be careful. And the idea of like having, something under wraps in the freezer to take out in case of emergency, you never really, it always was much more seat in the pants than that. Honestly, the thing we could do probably spur the moment, and even this took a lot of, it took a lot out of people was to do a clutch cargo moving lips thing, which you could the night before go like, okay, you know, the desk piece

isn't going to be ready for tomorrow. And something just happened with Clinton and the president of Ireland or whatever. So let's do a clutch cargo thing. And those you could right the night before in the morning of, even though it was hectic. How much pressure was it nine months into the job when you find out that you're going to be head writer? This is not something you lobbied for. I believe Marsh McCull was out. I don't know if he was sick or he missed something. And they were doing, it was a huge deal because when they were doing a show where were they on a boat? Was it the circle line? I forget what it was, but they were doing a big show. And Marsh wasn't there as the head writer. And you had only

been there. I don't know. Was it nine months? And they had you just step up. What was that like? And what was that what happened was? What? What happened was, Marsh was still the head writer. That was the summer of 95. And Marsh was the head writer, but he got sick.

And that was an enormous, crazy undertaking to do this show on the circle line, you know, basically taping it at five and then getting it produced and delivered at time to air that night. Maybe we taped it a little earlier in the day. But it was an enormous, crazy, stupid undertaking with, you know, lots of fun, dumb bits and some of which were pre-tape and some of

which were live. And I think Marsh was kind of busy trying to get other episodes of the show produced that week. And then I think actually got sick on the day or the day before. So I really did, and I think I did step up and just sort of take on some more responsibility and help deliver the show and edited and tried to be a voice of calm. And even though I was probably, I think I got some credit from Conan and Jeff of like good in a crisis. Hello. Can you hear me? You know, pulled it together a little bit.

And I think it was one of the reasons I think a couple months later when Marsh left that they asked me to be the head writer that September is when I stepped in. But it was really hard. That job, I will say, I cut the biggest break of any, the first few headwriters is the show went from five nights a week to four nights a week in December of 1995. And those first three months of five shows a week were really hard. And the fact that Marsh had done that and then Robert had done that for him, I don't know how they did it. Yeah, five nights a week is brutal. Like Colbert and Letterman would do two shows on certain days. And you could kind of at least have a day off, even though those would be very intense Thursdays.

But yeah, that's great that you went down to four. And then that would give you that Mondays to do remotes or just kind of catch up. that's right. We would do remotes on Mondays or just get it a little bit ahead on the writing for the week. It made a huge difference. And being able to leave on Friday after a hard week and know that you weren't doing a show, taping a show on Monday made a huge difference. I really, it was a massive lifesaver break that that happened.

And it was amazing too because they aired a rerun on Monday night and everybody, the writers got paid a little bit more. because they got a rerun aired and, you know, they get a small residual for a re-aird. So it was like this double thing of like, oh, we're getting a little more breathing room and you're going to get a teeny bit more money. It was like this win-win for us. But yeah, we never, we did, we recorded two shows a few times for other reasons, I think, maybe travel or something that Conan was doing. And then we are a weird fun show that we always recorded early every year was we would usually record a show on Thanksgiving Day. but we would shoot it at like, you know,

noon or 1 o'clock in the afternoon maybe and be done. And we would have, I remember they would always provide catered Thanksgiving dinner for everybody. That's fun that you got to do that. I was going to ask, when you were a head writer of Conan, it was only nine months in that you got the gig, which is unbelievable.

What was the best part of being head writer and that your least favorite part about being head writer? Wow. Great question. obviously it was it was really fun to you know I had some skills I think and some past experiences like sort of leading a creative team a little bit in or leading a team in stuff I'd done in college in my college radio station and then in my sketch group in Boston that I was in

I was one of the sort of I was one of the producers of it so I kind of took on extra responsibility so I've always, I think, kind of gravitated toward like, how can we figure this out together? And so I felt useful in that regard. And obviously, creatively, it was great to be able to, as much as you could on a daily show that was like a runaway train at all times, to sort of shape like, oh, this is something we can plan to do down the road, and we can aspire to do something more ambitious, like time travel shows for a week, or sending Conan or Andy on a big remote or, you know, something for a holiday special,

like a Thanksgiving sketch for a Thanksgiving Day episode. And then I liked, you know, kind of being able to be the person sitting with Conan and Jeff Ross, the producer, really figuring out, being led in on some of like the sort of strategic show business conversations. Like we're thinking about traveling the show here and there and being a part of that and being included in that. then just, yeah, getting to really work even more closely with Conan and even more closely with every single writer. And then, you know, honestly, too, like, you know, it was just a nice professional milestone to get trusted with that and really fun. The least favorite part of it was, you know, there is an endless, it is like the post office in a way doing a daily show like

that, which is both exciting because you can always get back out there and like, you, like, fix if a sketch didn't go great or a desk piece didn't play or you just didn't feel like you nailed it, you could always go like, well, it's, you know, it's like 162 game season in baseball. Like, let's flush that game down the toilet and get to the next day and try to do better tomorrow. The hours were really long. You know, I definitely lost sleep over it because you would take a long time to decompress when you got home. We'd have 10, 12 hour days a lot. And so I would be, you know, not able to kind of decompress from it or come down from it sometimes.

I will say as head writer, one amazing thing being at Conan is there wasn't a lot of turnover in terms of the writers. There are some late night shows where the head writer is very, it seems like almost constantly letting go of people that are they think aren't pulling their weight. Did you ever have to do that? Or was it, I was very, very few, if I'm guessing, when you're a head writer. Yeah, there was enough natural attrition, I think, when I was there that it didn't ever feel like we were getting stale. So I didn't, and there was never in need of like, oh, let's turn this over because we're stuck or whatever. Like, you know, people, you know, a little bit into it were like, you know, I think Ned Goldreier and Mike Stoyanov wanted to go and. do other things back in LA and Dave Reynolds had moved on. I think he moved on before I took over

his headwriter. So there had been some turnover. So I inherited a kind of, we hired a few new people obviously and then inherited kind of a stable staff. And it was a good place to work as hard as it was. It was exciting. And we felt like we were doing something cool and, you know, getting into a groove with it. I did have to let a few people go, which was not really. fun. You know, a couple people who just honestly, I think one really who's especially just

good submission and then never really figured out how to be productive enough on a daily level or even, like we could tolerate sometimes people who were, or not tolerate, but like managed to integrate into the overall thing, people who weren't coming up with a daily thing,

but then had the brilliant show-defining character, Like, this is very much a late-night bit. And it would happen once every 10 days or two weeks, but oh, boy, did it. It was a great. And there were some writers like that. That we actually loved. But then there were people who neither didn't do that and then didn't do anything in terms of really bringing it. But really it didn't happen much.

I heard you talk once, and you said that there were very few writers at Conan that could write every type of joke. Yeah. Can you explain that to people? Well, you know, I mean, the show was a little bit divided into monologue, was definitely divided into monologue writers and sketch writers. And then even with that, and so the monologue writers, who when I was there was like mostly Janine Dutulio, Brian Kiley, Chuck Squar, Tom Agnes, Chris Albers. They were really dedicated to just writing the monologue jokes. They didn't contribute that much in terms of the sketch writing. And then even within the sketch writers, there were people.

who could write like really good single year 2000 jokes, which were kind of like a version of monologue jokes. But they could do that. And they also were great at writing like the weird sketch things and the character-driven stuff. And then I think of a writer like Brian Stack, who was amazing, was so much more inventive as a sketch writer and as a bit writer and a character writer, like these incredible characters that he gave birth to. whereas there were some people who would like, what's the funniest visual thing that we could do? And sometimes that would be more slapstick or just a funny visual, you know,

graphics piece that we would design or a funny, quick popping, funny, gross out thing in a, in a staring contest or a satellite TV. You know, there were people who were better. I mean,

everybody could do everything, but there were some people who definitely were better at like, like Brian Stack used to, to write like miniature little plays almost, like with these characters. And he only did more of that even after I left his head writer, some of his most memorable stuff like the Interruptor or Hanigan, this traveling salesman, those were after I left. He was just starting to get into that groove when I was there. I heard Conan speak once and you were with him. And he said that, I think it was Greg Cohen could not write a topical joke if you put a gun to his head.

Greg Cohen, that was not his strengthened by. And that was, he was who I was really talking about I said like a daily topical joke about a celebrity or a political joke in a clutch cargo moving lips thing with Bill Clinton or Rob Bob Dole, he just wasn't interested in it. You know, it wasn't, I think he could have written them. It just didn't interest him. And he was really amazingly frank and kind of refreshing because he was like, yeah, I don't, I don't really like that kind of stuff. And I don't really get it.

And I don't really do it. So whatever. And then he would come up with the weirdest, you know, you know, um, Grady, the search for Grady. For Grady was him, or the, we never actually, like the refrigerator Perry, Rip Taylor, reunion piece or whatever was kind of a lot of Greg, Greg. Or the song remains the same parody we did where, you know, Conan, Andy, Max, and Oldie and Bobby Bowman are all different characters up from the Led Zeppelin concert movie, you know, that was epic. That was Greg Cohen. Like he was going to come up with that kind of stuff.

Yeah, that was some of my favorite things. Colin Jost wrote in his book, he said when his head writer at Saturday Night Live, you would meet with these prospective people. They had good packets or you would hear a good thing. And he said almost every year there would be writers that would show up either drunk or they were just too nervous and they would crumble during the interview process. Did you ever as head writer witness any of these? Did you have experiences like that where their packet was solid and you met with them

and you're like, I can't hire them based on it just wouldn't be a good fit. No. Actually, no, because I kind of felt like we were, if we liked the packet enough, even if they were like shy or introverted or, I mean, look, all writers are kind of nerds and have some degree of social anxiety and awkwardness. Like, otherwise we kind of wouldn't do what we do. So I think we were able to kind of, integrate that and usually maybe

I mean maybe there was an example of somebody I met who I just didn't get a vibe from and then didn't bring that person further in the process or introduce them to Conan or whatever but no we didn't I didn't have that experience no I have a there's a really funny really funny guy named Dave King who the flip side of it was and this didn't keep her from getting the job but I did remember interviewing Dave King

who's gone on to a great career in L.A. And he was such a sweetheart because he didn't know what he was supposed to do in a job interview. And he showed up for a job as a writer at Conan in a suit, I'm pretty sure, and a tie, which was not a, it was, you know, T-shirts and jeans kind of a place totally and super informal. And he sort of felt like, well, I'm going for a job interview. I should be, I should clean this up. And when I see him, which is right, he's gone, he's written for parks and rec and all these great shows. He's, he's somebody I, I will tease. and he will remind me that he wore a tie to his Conan interview.

I'm only bringing this up because I've heard you talk about it and you wrote a print piece about it. You wrote for John Stewart's. It was either his MTV show or the Paramount Syndicated version. I don't know which one. But why did John Stewart let you go? You mentioned he fired you. Was it because he just, it wasn't a fit personally? Or was it the jokes that the material he just didn't think was a fit?

Was it creative or was it behavioral? It wasn't behavioral, but it was kind of. on me. So I was on the MTV John Stewart show. And my sense of what happened is, I think John, it was the very first series that we did on MTV, first batch of shows, which would have been airing in the spring, excuse me, fall of 1993, I believe. And I, John had seen my, knew me from stand-up and he had also seen the sketch group I was in and really liked it, the sketch represent with David Cross and all these really funny people, Paul Kozlowski and Lauren Nebraska and so on.

And he was like, oh, yeah. And then somebody recommended me to that job. Also, my friend John Ross was put in my word for me. So I put together submission. It was good. And I think John a little bit was like starting out his show and sort of had like, I need somebody who's going to fix all my problems. Because I remember I think one of the producers, Elise Roth was like, John really likes

you and you have a chance to make a big impact here. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I kind of was just a guy. And I was funny and I pitched some funny stuff. The sensibility might have been a little bit different. You know, I remember like there were bits that were kind of driven more almost as like less by comedy and more like, oh, there's a guy we found who will eat anything. So let's have him eat hair from a shower drain or something like that. Like it was more like kind of, whoa kind of stuff wasn't wasn't necessarily even coming from the comedy writer side of things but more like or the writer's side but more like the what's a weird thing we could put on the air that wasn't totally my sensibility and then I also think honestly and this is where I really put

it on me I kind of immediately sort of said like okay I got this job John thinks I'm funny these writers here also seem to think I'm funny I'm just going to settle in and take my time and make, you know, figure it out. And it's like, you don't have time to figure it out. You got to come in hard and hit the ground running and be pitching hard and really be not obnoxious, but ambitious. And not push, but work your ass off. And I think I kind of came in and was like, let me figure this out a little bit.

And I'll take my time. And it's like, there is no time. Because it was also a very short, we did like 22 shows. And then the next cycle, you know, stop production, took two months off and we're going to do another cycle and that's what I was not asked back for. So I put it on me a little bit of like, and I'd never made that mistake again. Like you kind of got to, if you get an opportunity, you got to go hard. During your time at Conan as head writer, did you have any interaction with Lauren Michaels?

Did he have any notes whatsoever during your time there? No, I think not really. I had one, I had two real interactions with Lauren. One is not long after I became the head writer, he wanted to meet me. And so I had a meeting in his office, which was cool. And he kind of just wanted to have a kind of global discussion of what, you know, he's like, I'm not going to try to do my Lauren impression, as everybody does. But he was like, what's the character of Conan?

I remember him saying, like, who do you feel your writing for? I think he was trying to, like, give me a state of the show address a little bit and what he sort of thought. But by the time I had taken over his head writer, you know, the show was really starting to turn the corner and gain some popularity. And I think Lauren was more like, we got something here. I'm going to leave Jeff Ross and Conan and everybody and Robert Smigel before me and Marsh and everybody before me to figure it out. It's kind of starting to work the early days of like, what are we doing and him probably getting pressure from the network of like, you chose this guy and we're not sure it's working, et cetera, et cetera, which I don't even know. it all that much about. It was past that. So it was kind of like, I think Lauren in that Lauren

way kind of trying to strategize about like, what do we, where do we go from here and what do you think? And I think it was testing me and sounding me out. It was a really actually nice meeting. He's super smart guy. And then the other time I really dealt with him, which was cool, was Conan was being inducted or honored at the American Museum or the moving image in or whatever it is in Astoria Queens, like the motion picture museum out there. There's a motion picture thing. And Lauren had remarks to make that he needed to make. So he, I think Jeff Ross suggested that I kind of be a sounding board for Lauren and help him shape what he said about Conan, you know, which so it was basically I was like helping to help helping him to write his remarks for

that, which was interesting. And that was right after I'd left as headwriter. So I wasn't really working for him anymore. I was starting to develop shows, but I had a little time on my hand. So that was the most time I actually spent talking to him was over the course of a few evenings. We jumped on the phone and sort of went through his speech, kind of. That's very, very cool. What was that experience like being on the phone with Lauren and editing material and in having that with him? It was cool. Like he was, it was interesting to see. him going, I would say going back to his roots. First of all, he felt so personally close to Conan. He did, and so responsible and sort of paternal, I think, about Conan's success that he wanted to say the

right thing and strike the right tone. I remember him, you know, talking about how he hired Conan and met with, he had a little joke insults in there. I think one of the jokes was like, you know, he met Greg Daniels and Conan who were writing partners. And he thought, you know, Greg was super smart and funny and Conan was tall. He had some jokes like that. And so it was fun to see him, and I helped him with some jokes like that. It was fun to see him kind of work through his feelings about Conan. And also, he was a comedy writer.

So to see him kind of, you know, after not doing that kind of thing, feel like he needed to write, put something down on paper that had some jokes that were sort of suitable for the occasion, because Conan's one of the funniest human beings in the world ever. and I think Lauren knows that. So he wanted to do right by him. But there was a element of, it was actually kind of endearing, like, is just good enough, kind of, that he was asking me a little bit as like to help him, like make sure I want to make it good.

So I kind of loved how much he wanted to get it right. Yeah, that says a lot about him. Were there any times when you were at Conan where they had to stop taping that you remember, either disasters? I mean, back then, they really tried to treat it like it was in. real time and it was rare that it would stop. The only time I remember was actually, yes, somebody had a reaction to the lights in the studio, like those flashing lights.

You know, you get that warning now. I think of, I don't think we did that. Or maybe we did and the person probably thought they could handle it. And somebody had a seizure and we had to stop tape and go back. back to like sort of, I think Conan hadn't even gotten a joke out or realized something was wrong or going on as he was about to start the monologue. So that was the only time we ever did a pick up with the audience there, you know, and started the show over. Who were some people, if there were any celebrities that were not happy with jokes that were

made? I know at one point Kelsey Grammer was upset at a joke. I know a daytime personality, personally called Conan Up. And I think Michael Bolton has. had some issue with one of the jokes. Were there any that you recall that we're not happy with jokes when you were there and made that either privately reached out to the show or publicly, we're not thrilled? I don't remember too much. I remember the incidents you were talking about. I think I do remember one time, right, I think was actually like my last week as head writer.

there was a SAG commercial writer strike that was going on where the Screen Actors Guild specifically were having a strike about the SAG contract versus commercial acting. And so they were protesting, they were picketing major producers of commercials and I think advertising agencies, anybody who was a signatory to the commercials agreement. And we had a funny bit about it that Kevin Dorf was one of the writers who I think I had right before I left, had written, and he was performing in it, I think, where it was, basically, quickly I'll sell it. It was like the, Conan said, we use a lot of actors on the show, and they're struggling because

of the strike. A lot of them make a living doing commercials, and they can't act at commercials because they're on strike right now. So we're going to have an actor come on and tell his story, and he's going to get a payment. This will help him get paid, but he's going to get a payment. So this Kevin Dorf comes out, I believe, and pretends to be an actor and says, like, Like, yeah, you know, it's really hard to put food on the table. And, you know, I can't afford groceries because of the strike.

And, you know, I come home and I just wish there was like, I could bring groceries home for my family, like a delicious box of triscuits. And he holds up a box of triscuits. And it was a funny like, oh, the actor is like getting paid under the table to do. That was the premise of the thing. And he's sneaking in a commercial. Tim Robbins was a guest on the show that day. and I can see why he did this, but he was very active in the Screen Actors Guild

and active in that strike. I think I actually ended up going to a, because I was in the Screen Actors Guild too, I think I'd gone to some organizational meeting that he spoke at or something. I can't remember, but I was actually respectful of the strike because I had done a lot of commercials as a performer. And I was like, oh, I think we're publicizing the strike and whatever.

And he was like, no, you are giving basically a free commercial to Triscuits. And so he threatened to not, he was the first guest on the show and he saw the sketch, like he just happened to pick it up. Like, it was on the page desk outside the studio. We would leave copies of the sketch for anybody who needed to like last minute look at it

or one of the actors forgot his sketch or whatever. So we had copies of it on the page desk. Outside the studio, he was waiting. It was in the afternoon and he sees this and goes, you can't do this sketch. And he asked to talk to whoever was in charge. And I'm negotiating with Tim Robbins. So I happen to like quite a bit as an actor and like sort of almost getting into an argument with him making this point that like, no, we are actually of anything bringing some exposure to this strike and publicly.

You know, and that was kind of our intent was not to give Triscuits a free ride, Nabisco, whoever. And he was like, no, no, you can't do this. I'll walk off. So we changed like we had enough time to, he found a beer, I think it was. It might have been like Sierra Nevada or Anchor Steam. I think it was Anchor Steam who had signed a separate agreement to honor the new agreement of SAG. He like called the SAG office, Screen Actors Guild Office and got them to say like, are there any advertisers who are legitimately already obeying by what the rules are going to be in this new contract negotiation?

And it was Anchorstein Beer, I think. And so we changed it from Triscuits and had to rewrite the sketch so that the Kevin Dorff, the actor playing the actor. could hold up a six-pack of anchor steam. It wasn't as good because it wasn't as famous a brand. It was much more fun to be able to say Triscuits. So I think it made the sketch worse, but it made Tim Robbins not walk off our show. That's a mate.

That's such a Larry Sanders type moment show. I literally think it might have been my last day, like September of 2000, 2000, I think it was. I do want to say he's a very nice man. I've met him a couple times, at least when I've met him. Yeah, he was. Yeah. He was super nice and I think I could see why he took that position. It was and I think he didn't want to have to figure it out. He was just like, can't you just change this? He wasn't, he was, he was, he used his power as the first guest of the show and it was Tim Robbins. It was a good guest for us to have. He didn't reference it on air. And I think he was actually happy about the solution because he ended up, we ended up touting an advertiser who had already signed the contract basically. So it worked out, but it did. To me, it was a little.

less funny. And I did feel like, oh, I didn't really feel heard on my point that we're actually overall, greater good publicizing the plight of the screen actors, the commercial actor. Were there any guess that you got booked that you pitched, either to Jim Pitt for music or stand-up comedians or just anybody that you thought would be good for the show that you got booked during your time at Conan? Not really. I stayed out of that lane. I think other writers, there were other writers who had been in the stand-up trenches more or some of our monologue writers, who probably pitched some people to Paula Davis and Frank Smiley to book. Jim Pitt was actually, he was so tapped in.

I think he was tough to pitch to in terms of like somebody I'd like. If you pitch somebody, he'd go like, yeah, nobody knows them or they don't have a record out currently or the dates aren't going to work out. So I didn't ever have any luck with that. I didn't try that often. When you became headwriter after nine months, was there anything that Conan said, we want to do differently than Marsh did? Was there anything specific that we want to not do this and try it this way?

No, that was not said to me. I think that Conan was, you know, I had heard him talk about what stuff he was responding to more than other things, just being on the staff. I remember specifically, like, he would, you know, he would, I remember him teasing us once like, oh, okay, he's walking. Oh, let's talk to the curtain today. And we're going to put an animated mouth on the. curtain. The curtain is going to talk about what it feels like when it gets pulled back for

the first guest to walk out, you know, and he was like teasing us for sort of the arbitrary stuff that we would do. And he was very, that was a favorite Conan word of, that he was always a little bit leery of stuff that was not grounded in like a sort of smart through line or had a kind of organic reason. Like, he was like, he would be like, oh, look, the mirror, you know, the cushion on the couch is just going to start, you know, talking or whatever. And then the hilarious thing is some of the best bits were when, like, you know, Brian, Brian McCann put a FedEx packet on the top of his head and started walking around the writer's office blessing people as if he was the FedEx Pope because it looked like a papal mitre, you know, a Pope hat. And could not be more arbitrary. And Conan got really good, I think, and we got really good about like,

bottling up where we would just be random and arbitrary. So we would do like new characters for spring 20, you know, 2000, whatever it was, spring 1998. And that bit allowed us to do these kind of weirdo arbitrary bits within an overall desk piece. And it gave Conan the opportunity to cut one or two of them if you felt they were too arbitrary. Similarly in the we do the satellite channels,

it was a chance to kind of do a desk piece that had numerous discrete pieces of comedy in it. Some of them would be super weird little pieces of comedy and Conan could pick or choose whether he had the stomach for how weird it was. And to his credit, he mostly let us do the weird stuff. And he realized that was the papal FedEx hat, the FedEx Pope, which he would have said, oh my God. So let me guess. McCann put a FedEx box on his head and started blessing people around the office. Exactly. That's exactly what happened. So he was he was just, I think always a little bit like, because he was such a smart writer, like, how can we make it feel earned and organic and not just random, like two, two weird ideas put together, you know?

Was there anything looking back in terms of the culture being different that you, that did well or that you put on Conan Show looking back that today probably you wouldn't be able to do? Yeah. We don't have to get specific, but there were just some things that you can think about. There was a, there was, you know, even within a world of, of being kind of intelligent and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, there was, there was, there was, there was, broier, than I would want to have, be out there now, I think, and a little bit, like, you know, like, you know, like, we'll fast and loose with groups that are, you know what I mean. I think just to kind of, it was of that time a little bit. I think we kind of pushed that in some ways that was smart and refreshing and in some ways that was like, oh, I wouldn't do that now.

But I feel that way, I mean, I feel that way about stuff I did five years ago. Like everything's changing. Everything does. You've got to push back and go like, well, this is still funny, right? You know, and then other times you kind of go like, yeah, can we do this and be just as funny without like shitting on somebody or making somebody feel less than. I had a day job at Letterman at the CBS version in the late 90s, and the audience was always an issue with the show in terms of Dave had a really tough time when the audience wasn't great. And it was just, it would happen at least it seemed like once a week or maybe every other week.

And I remember talking to you about the audiences. And I know that every show struggles with audiences a little bit, but I remember talking to you about it. And it was one of those things you, I remember you telling me that you didn't want too many college. kids in the audience. They were good, but too many. But what was your struggle with the audience, if any? Did you have trouble with audiences at all, a Conan show? You know, we really didn't, because especially in the time that I was there, I think it went from, like, people not knowing what they were showing up for and being sort of pulled into, like, who is this guy? This is early on, even before I was there, like, being pulled into like, oh, this is the Letterman replacement that's on a 1230.

to pretty rapidly, you know, as Conan found his legs and the show found its voice, the audience is really wanting to be there. I think he did like a little bit of, and I think we all did appreciate a little bit of like, it's nice to have all the super hardcore rabid fan, you know, major fan girling people there who just were fan boys and girls of the show. But it could be alienating. Sometimes you get a little bit. like too much wild, crazy screaming.

I find this from the studio audience is tiresome at home to watch. Letterman hated it. Letterman hated when they would clot too much. Yeah. And when they'd the whole woo-hoo. I think we kind of, you know, I think Conan liked enthusiasm and liked appreciation. But there's a level of like, I always felt like it doesn't feel as good at home. Like it might feel good in the moment, but it's a little bit tiring or tiresome.

to experience as a home viewer. So I kind of was like getting the audience too whipped into a frenzy, I think was not necessarily. And then sometimes you had like subtler jokes, you know, that would be a little weirder or quieter and maybe would play well at home. You would think that, you know, there's the tyranny of the studio audience a little bit that you have to balance, I think, on a live show with an audience that is rabidly excited to be there. But also it is a TV show for people at home. and they're watching, they're trying to chill out.

They want to laugh, but they also maybe want to just relax. Almost every show I've worked on, there's been at least one or two strange intern stories. Nothing scandalous, but just weird behavior. I know Larry Sanders did an episode, The Weird Intern. Is there a story or two, an intern story of Conan that stands out? Oh, that's a good question. The only thing I wish that, well, Ellie Brancic was one of our,

our writers and she came up with the idea because we just had so many this flood of interns every semester that was a semester long thing then the summer so it was really three cycles of interns every year and we liked our interns and they were the people who just did a ton of stuff and they were in bits and they gave a kind of fun energy and you could test jokes on them and sometimes we would throw them into bits and that was awesome and you know we didn't realize how many of them were going to turn out to be like major players in the industry later which was kind of of funny. But Ellie was great. She was like, you know, we have these people, and some of them were kind of odd, right? So both the odd ones and the great ones, you kind of wanted to remember

them. So she started making them do a Polaroid, almost like a camp counselor kind of a thing. And we had a book, an intern, the intern's book. So we could go like, who was that intern we had two summers ago, who was, could never always screwed up the dinner order, but then also was kind of like, you know, a little bit like pitching us trying to like get on the show or talk about whatever or what, you know, or was weirdly hanging around the band too much or something. And there were those things. Or who was awesome and really great and blah, blah, blah. And so we had this literally like a big loosely binder with polarites of people.

That would be so cool to not see now because you would see John Krasinski and Mindy Kaling and Vanessa Bayer and Angela Kinsey and, well, I think it happened after Angela was there, because she was there before I was there. But like people who have gone on to do cool stuff in our business would have been in that intern book. So we didn't have like, you know, and actually I think interestingly, we didn't overly use interns in bits. I think that happened more after I was there because one of the things that I think

Robert and Marsh did in the early, and Conan, early in the sort of comedy of it was we didn't do as much with staff, partly because Letterman had already done so much of that. And I think we were more like, let's cast an actor, which was good for the actors and sketch performers in New York City. Conan later, I think, as he felt like he needed to differentiate himself less from what Dave was doing, because Conan was Conan and doing his own thing, that's why you had so many great, you know, the Jordan stuff, Shlansky stuff happened after really my time there. And,

you know, the funny stuff with him talking to the interns. We kind of, he did more of that after my time there as he felt less like he was, I think, infringing on Dave's territory. And maybe it was,

because Dave was doing less of it too at that point and wasn't interacting with people in that same way. So I think Conan, which is amazing because so many, so many, you know, so much funny stuff like, like even his relationship with Sona now on podcast,

I don't think he would have done that as much back in the day. We would have had an actor playing his assistant as opposed to the hilarious Sona, who is his, well, former assistant at this point, but hilarious sidekick. No, that's a really good point. Were you the head writer that started this, or maybe it was with Marsh where it seemed like for most of the writers, they would have to do numerous packets to get hired. Is that a myth or was that the truth? Was there anybody that on one packet when you were?

were there, we're getting hired. It seemed the people that I would talk to that were getting hired would be like, I had to do three packets over a year. And it was this thing that just kept going. Is that a myth? Or is there true than that? I think that's a little bit of a myth. I think that maybe we were interested. What could have happened is somebody got close, but didn't make the cut. And we hired somebody else. Tommy Blatchell got the job or Brian McCann got the job. And then it was like, but they were good and we said like take another shot at it and we looked at another packet and maybe they got hired or maybe they didn't. So when we had the next time we had an opening, I don't think we were like made people

do multiple revisions of one packet to get hired. And I think mostly if you could pop like Greg Cohen, you know, nobody really knew him. Somebody from Chicago knew I think he worked at the box office at Second City or something. But his packet just came in and I think we hired him off that first packet in immediately. He didn't have an agent or anything. It was just saying to him? No, most people did not. Most people got their managers after and agents after they started the show.

So we were looking at submissions for the show. I think they had to sign a release that S&Broadway video or that NBC let us sign because we were looking at mostly unsigned people, unsigned meaning unrepresented people. I had a manager, but a lot of people didn't have anything coming into it. If Netflix existed back in the day, your show with Todd Barry would have been a special and would have been, people would have been quoting it. I mean, I saw it at UCB once or twice. And it was so funny. Can you talk about your show with Todd Barry?

And how much if it was scripted versus ad lib, but the two-person comedy thing, I mean, you guys nailed it. Oh, well, that's super kind. It's the truth. And I love that you remember that. So those started at Rebar, which was the bar on 8th Avenue. you in Chelsea. But that scene mostly shifted over Rebar at Luna Lounge, which is down on Ludlow

Street. And we started doing those in like 90, I moved here in 93. So late 93, 94 probably. Todd and I started doing that. Basically just started me being sort of the straight man and talking to Todd, who was this kind of oddball. And as we learned

more and more, as I went through it, like often I would just discover weird and and weirder stuff about him and we would just get hung up on little language stuff. It's very hard to describe. We ended up turning it, did a bunch of these monologues at the alt comedy scene, and then worked with Matt Besser from UCB to, as a director, we thought he would be a good person to help us shape it. He was a fan of it, and we turned it into a show called sidecarring. And it was this image of me, like, I'm on a motorcycle, and it was just below

me on this graphic that was on the little postcard art for it, was Todd as if he was riding in a motorcycle sidecar. But the idea was I was kind of this like, like thoughtful straight person, friend of Todd's, but kind of talk to him and he just gets weirder and weirder and eventually the stuff started, impacts back on me. We are still really good friends and we've actually talked about

trying to do some of it again. We ended up taking to the Aspen Comedy Festival. We did a version of it on an, when the Daily Show was trying to figure out what they were doing, early, early, early when Craig Kilbourne was the host. They liked it. The folks there, I think Madeline and Elise

and I think Stuart Bailey was working with them and they liked it and so we shot something for them. But they ended up cutting it, calling it like, musings of the modern man or something like that and cutting it too tightly and it didn't have the same feel. So it didn't work in a little bit we ever did it on TV. But we did do it at the Asperin Comedy Festival

And it was cool. It was a fun, fun dynamic. It's hard to describe it. Does any footage exist or any audio or any visual? I don't think there's a great video recording of it, but there are some bits that we recorded that are pretty funny. He played for me recently. And you would kill.

How much of it was written word by word versus improving? We would work it out ahead of time like the weekend before, like Monday night at Luna. and then sidecarring was pretty scripted, but we would find new things on stage as we did it. Oh, it was so funny. What are one of your two favorite Luna Lounge memories? It's unbelievable the amount of talent that was there that was starting out that has exploded,

that are A-list now. But what stands out, if there were any memories looking back, our performances? I'll be honest. I think the bulk of us doing that was when I was head writer at Conan was really the we hit our stride doing them in 95 and 96 and I think we took that show to

Aspen in 97 and for me it was a creative release a way of just doing keeping my hand and performing a little bit and I think I mostly was not in the room when other stuff was up because I was nervously pacing so I didn't watch that many shows I do remember Marin coming in you know some people like David Tell didn't come there that often even though he's a genius because he was like, I'm going to fucking kill in comedy clubs. I don't need this all the comedy shit. But like, seeing early, you know, seeing UCB people come through there was incredible. Gallif Anacchus when he couldn't get booked on a late night show, nobody would book Zach Gallifinaccus and he would destroy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun to look back.

Yeah. I think of Louis and Mark Marin and Janine Grofellow coming through and just trying material. And then I think Todd and I, you know, we would, well, you know, John Benjamin and stuff would come through. The other place that captured a little bit, the vibe of that was a little later and did cool stuff was Stella. Yes, that was hard to get in. That was very hard to get tickets. Downstairs at Time Cafe, yeah, was one place that they did. And I also did something with them somewhere else. or I did a show that Jackie Hoffman was that I did occasionally.

I did a funny, weird thing with John Benjamin that we did as part of Stella sometimes. I think Todd Barry and I did Stella sometimes too. Last question. What was your last day like at Conan? Was it a relief that the pressure was off? Was it sad? Were you excited? What was that?

Like they gave you an on-camera tribute at the end they showed you? Did they? I think so. I think they did. Yeah. It was sad. I mean, it was a relief. It was such a hard job.

and I was ready to go. And I was getting a little bit of pressure. I'd already made a deal with NBC at that point to start to develop other things. So there's a world in which I delayed having to go do that into the world of half hours as long as I could. But it was time because I think my last day was around September of 2000.

And I had to kind of come up with something quickly to pitch, to get ready to pitch for that development cycle because they were paying me. And so you pitch in the, the fall at the latest and try to get something and then write something. And so I wrote something, you know, in the first three or four months after I left. And that was even late. You know, sometimes people would sell their shows over the summer before for the development for a half hour for the following year. I remember, I don't remember too many specifics of it other than

it was moving. And I was, you know, it felt like this was a part of my life. I'm, I'm glad I left. And, you know, my manager a long time ago said, you don't want to stay at the party too long on a show like that. And yet I look at what somebody like Mike Sweeney, who did stay for a long time, or Matt O'Brien as head writers, were able to accomplish in the different iterations of what Conan eventually did. I think I would have probably gotten stale between 2000 and 2009 when Conan left to do the Tonight Show. It would have been too much. But Mike Sweeney coming in after me was able to do amazing things with late night and the staff. was incredible and Conan just got better and better and Andy leaving which I didn't have to live with very long he had left only a little bit before I left that you know I think made Conan in some ways

stronger and then coming back out in 2009 and reuniting with Andy was amazing and the tonight show was this incredible saga that I always felt a little about on the outside of so part of me has and I'm still tight with Conan and I talked to a lot of folks over there and it's such a part of me and I love all of them and see them when I can. But I did weirdly only participate in the first quarter or fifth of the story in a way. Yeah. I do have some, I have some like, oh, I'm glad I got to do all the other things I got to do. But it's incredible up to what he's doing now with the travel shows and the podcast.

Like I admire his journey so much. And I only got to be part of it for, you know, the beginning or the early beginning. You were there for a long, you were there for a good, good chunk. I thought the writing when you and Smyg were there were some of the best years. Was it obvious that Mike Sweeney would be the headwriter after you? Was that just something that you thought would happen? Was there anybody else considered? Or was it very much like Mike Sweeney would be good for this job? I don't know exactly. I'm feeling that I was privy to the conversations between Conan and Jeff Ross on that, who would have been the decision makers maybe Andy would have had some input too.

It just felt like the natural thing. He and I started on the same day, and I had given the opportunity to do that first. He had been amazing. He was just smart and the natural leader, and it just felt like, I don't think there was much discussion. I think it was like, yeah, he should do it.

Jonathan Groff, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate this. Of course, Mark, it's great. I love talking about this stuff, and it's such an amazing world. and your encyclopedic knowledge of it is amazing, mildly disturbing. Oh, thanks. Yes, that's what I get out constantly.

But I appreciate it. I'm really excited to you and Todd Barry to hear some audio from back in the day. Yes. You guys did such a good job. It was so funny. He says about if he can pull it up. He played something for me a year or so ago on his phone. He's like, yeah, this guy sent me this.

I think it was maybe like a commercial. Might have been like we were auditioning for commercial as those characters or something. I can't remember why he had it, but it was pretty cool. Yeah, you and Todd killed as hard as anybody I've ever seen. So I really appreciate you doing this, Jonathan. Thank you so much and good luck with everything. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode on Apple Podcasts. Please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news. And you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.