Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Inside Late Night: Lew Morton

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Lew Morton joins Mark Malkoff to discuss writing for 'Saturday Night Live' during its turbulent 1993–1995 rebuild, and learning under legendary head writer Jim Downey—before going on to NewsRadio, Futurama, and Family Guy.

from late-nighter.com, it's Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Welcome to Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Today, I talk to former Saturday Night Live writer, Louis Morden, about his two years writing for SNL. Lewis Morden, nice to see you, sir. Nice to meet you. So we actually did meet. I know you're not going to remember this because you were in your 20s and I was in my teens, but the first time that we met was actually backstage between Dress and Live when John Goodman hosted with Dan Akron and Tragically Hip.

That would have been, I believe, 95, 96. And I remember, you were, you had a sketch that show. And I remember you taking time to talk to me. I was on the ninth floor by the green room. And I remember you wrote on that episode, it was the coal miner sketch. Uh-huh. Yeah. Why did I talk to you?

That's probably the typical malpractice. I should have been worried about my sketch. I was such a Saturday Night Live nerd. I knew who all of you were. And I would talk to you about the sketches that you wrote. And you were, you must have been 23 at the time. Can you set up that sketch?

I mean, I remember you saying that you were giving Dan Aykroyd notes. I mean, that must have been so surreal. It's so weird. Like I was 24. And, you know, they let you,

you have so much autonomy. over your sketch at Centinet Live, even if you just started. It's like if you really don't know what you're doing and you're new, they'll have someone kind of shadow, someone who's experience kind of shadow you. But you're not shadowing them.

They're just there to support you. And like you end up like, you know, fighting with department heads about things and giving notes to Dan Aykroyd. It's weird. It's crazy. You learn a lot, though. that's sort of the best first job you can have for that reason. You graduate from Harvard.

You're at the Harvard Lampoon. You graduated 93, and a few months later, you were writing for Saturday Night Live. What was your submission? Like, did you have to submit to Jim Downey, or did he know your work? I submitted six sketches. Two of them were commercial parodies, and I think it probably helped me that they were always feeling desperate for commercial parodies at the time. And one of them aired, one of them they produced. What was it?

I'll be darned if I can remember. Was it, I know that you wrote a bunch, including Macintosh Post-it Notes. I knew you worked on that. Yeah, that was later. That one, I went ate it as hard as anything I've ever involved with my life. It was just like, we did this thing where it was like the idea was, like, it was after the Newton. And it was sort of the idea was Macintosh. Yeah, Magnet Post-it notes.

It was this thing that could only do what a post-it note could do, but it cost like $2,000. And it had a lot of technology in it. And like, the way technology was about to go is just like, yeah, that's what happens. Sure. But post-it notes were replaced by things that cost $2,000. But like the audience watched it and may have thought it was a real ad. But at any rate, their basically only was, yeah, we want to buy that. No one got the comic premise such as it was at all.

Jim Downey leading up to this and Rob Schneider in the press leading up to when you first started that year, they said we just lost Robert Smigel, we lost the turners, we lost Jack Handy, we lost Christine Zander, basically 75% of what was getting on was suddenly lost. Were you cognizant going in that this was going to be maybe a transition year and a little bit rough? I mean, the people that they hired had no sketch experience other than you and a few. but I mean, people like Dave Attell, Sarah's, um, Silverman. You did, but you were a lampoon ride, but they were high-road stand-ups. Oh, my God. Like, no, like I was 22.

Steve Luchner was 22. Dave Attell was very, very funny, but, you know, a stand-up, you know, mostly a stand-up. You know, mostly wanted to get himself on the air, which is totally understandable. And Sarah was, what, 19? She was really young. And then Norm, those were the people that they had. Norm came in and Norm was an unbelievable genius and like Larktringer I think was new. That was the year after.

But you were there. Did you realize that was going to be, it was going to be maybe a challenging year without all those people that had just left? Oh, Mark, I didn't realize anything. I was very young and I never like had any idea what was going on. And I was just trying to keep my head above water and write stuff and like, like, you know, have my own apartment. You got a sketch on your very first episode, though.

I got two sketches on my very first episode. What were those? The first one I know, this is Charles Barkley Nirvana, the season premiere of 93. Whatever the ad was that was in my submission packet. Okay. I don't think, like, I don't remember. I don't think it was great. Like, I think it was very much like this was in someone's submission packet.

I'm going to ask John Schneider of the Saturday Night Network is my producer for that. If you can let me know what the ad was for that. Yeah. But the sketch that you wrote was you and Rob Schneider, which was, you put your, you wrote a lot together that year. Yeah. We're like, it was, you know, like, I don't know what the show has been like for the past, you know, 400 years since I was there. But at the time, like, it was very clicky. And, like, you know, like, it was very helpful to me that sort of, I found.

a cast member who wanted to write with me who was capable of getting on the air. He was such a good sketch writer. People do not know how good. The Ivy League people were in awe of Schneider. He was one of the best writers that went through. John, what was the commercial? There was a commercial on the premiere, NCI.

Oh, yeah. It was sort of like, the problem with it didn't have a very clear premise, but it was basically an ad for something that doesn't exist anymore. It's an ad for like a long distance network. Oh, yes. Ellen Clayghorn's, can I have my phone number be one, two, three, four, five, six, something like that. And it was weird thing where like the funniest joke in it, Downey Cut,

which maybe the only time I ever disagreed with Downey in my life, because he's the absolute god of, everything. But like the like whereas it was like fully or no it was far away, sorry, going, going like the CIA has put a phone in my head. And like this went on from there. And like that to me it was like that's, well, that's the funny part. We cut it.

Yeah, yeah. It was sort of. So that was from my submission packet. And that's what that got on. Like that had been produced like a month before. And then like, yeah, yeah. that one. Oh, and then I think even that, no, I think, I think, I think,

Schneider Knight had two sketches, two actual sketches. What were they? We had the weed guy. We had, we had in there. Yeah. And it was a home shopping network for sports memorabilia, where all the sports memorabilia was, was parts of dead sports people's bodies. See, I thought that got cut.

That made the air. Okay. I thought it got cut. Maybe it got cut. Oh. I don't think it aired, but I could be off on that. John, maybe I'm going to bring John to bring in, but I might be off on that. It was exciting to me at the time that they built the set.

The heck that they cut it may have. No, one did get cut. It was, it made a dress, but not there's. That's what I thought. I know there's, I'm a little nerdy, as you can tell, Lou. There's something. No, I know. How anyone remembers any of this is remarkable.

I don't. So, what do you remember having Nirvana around in? Charles Barkley that week. There were donkeys backstage. What stands out about that week? The thing that stands at the most about that week is the donkeys. It was the sketch sort of like based on this

thing that I had never heard of. That apparently they used to do in the Midwest where it's like they would have like people play basketball on donkeys playing donkey basketball. It was Charles Barclay's donkey basketball camp whereas basically like Charles Barclay talking to

all these like cast members on donkeys, basically just yelling at them that they're not paying enough attention to the donkey fundamentals. Just sort of like, sort of like old school coach yelling at the kids about like all they care about is flashy donkey dunks and like they, they're not. And but and the sketch like five seconds into it, all the donkeys ran away. It was a 10 to one sketch and it was chaos on stage. And I don't think it's available online. I think it might have to be.

And music, the royalties. Yeah. It's like all the all the all the donkeys ran away. And then they had to do this sketch with no donkeys. And it was just sort of like everyone else in the sketch besides Barclay was just totally broke. And then like uh, Barclay is just, it was just like it was giving Barclay a lot of lines. And like when he was still like it was before he was a broadcaster. He's a basketball player.

Like it's a lot of lines given on actor. And so it's just sort of like it was a long, long monologue from Charles Parkley where all the donkeys had left. But the thing I really remember about that sketch that really made me feel like I was in show business. And I felt like I was like living out like all my favorite year fantasies is like I guess it was during dress is like between the sketches, the stage hands, just dragging these donkeys. across the linoleum floors backstage, like these donkeys who are just trying to dig in their heels and just sort of like, that's show business. You got to, some weeks you've got to drag a donkey.

It happens. John. Mark, I just want to show Lou a picture of that sketch that you said that got cut from the premiere just to make sure that we'll write one here. Oh, yeah, this one we do have, I'll put up on screen for you. Is that the one that you're talking about with Phil Hartman and Charles Barkley at a desk? It could be. It's probably, it was not hard. was it was i was not able i was not of a status where i could have part in my sketches

is that right that you weren't allowed to is as a junior writer wasn't allowed it's just i was afraid of him wow i mean he was rightfully so i mean like like you know like like it's a kind of thing where like it if no one tells you who to write for you just have to sort of figure it out And if you're new, like, you're better off writing for the people who are also new. Because no one else is writing for them. And like if I wrote for Hartman, it's like everyone was writing for Hartman. So it's just like they're going to pick a certain number of Hartman sketches. It's like they're not going to pick one I wrote.

Where if it's like I write for, you know, someone who gets on less, like they're going to, you know, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, it's, it's, like, it's, it's. they're online, you know. You did end up writing for Phil Hartman on news radio, which we can talk about later. So, I mean, he was one of the best, if not one of the two best SNLers easily. Unbelievable, yeah. I want to talk about show number three. This is Jeff Goldblum and Arrow Smith. The subway performer with Rob Schneider is a perfect sketch from top to bottom.

Can you talk about coming up with that Tuesday night? Did you and Rob come up with that Tuesday night? Did you have that idea? I actually remember that one. because I feel like that's probably the best sketch you ever wrote. I peaked early. Like Schneider had an idea of a, of a,

like a street musician who doesn't want your money. And then I said, and the song is, the songs are all about how we starve to death and really wants money. And sort of then, it was just sort of like, it was just sort of like,

you know, like, we, I guess, like, delivered okay on the premise and sort of built it. But like, it's sort of like, like, I always like that kind of thinky, thinky sketch where people, someone is saying one thing in one way and another one thing in another way. But like that, yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, it gets more specific. At first, it's like, I'm starving. And then you, you, the person in this type of shirt. and it's just way more specific with his singing and he's denying that he's asking for money. It was such a, the structure was tremendous.

I was going to ask about Jay Moore's book. Jay had a couple of things. I wanted to see if you verify. The first thing is he said when Roseanne hosted, that would have been, I think, your second year in December. He said during between Dress and Live when Lauren was giving notes that Roseanne was incessantly burping on purpose just to be obnoxious. Do you recall that?

I don't remember. I don't remember. But I also read his book when it came out. I don't remember objecting to that. So possibly it's true. I don't know. That episode you wrote a piece that really upset an airline, which was USA Air. Can you talk about that?

Yeah. It was a sketch. U.S. Air had just had like two crashes. And so it was a sketch of like an ad for U.S. Air, whereas different people who work for U.S. Air saying we're going to try really hard not to crash into planes anymore, but we're not making any promises, was basically the idea. And it was like a pilot saying, like, I am a pilot for the U.S. Air, I just want to assure everyone, I do not have a death wish. I do not feel compelled to drive the plane directly into the ground, although when I say it that way, it that like was sort of that idea, that sort of like, and we got. Letters. We got letters from people who worked for U.S. Air just like that they felt it was unfair.

I feel like Roseanne, that was the only sketch that did really well that time. That was a tough show. Another sketch I was there. I was there was when Sarah Gilbert hosted, you wrote the roommate's sketch. It was Sarah Silverman, a rare sketch that she was in. Can you tell the premise and how that sketch came about? That was a weird sketch in that it sort of existed before people really. knew about trans people or I really, people I ever really did. And like, it may not as a result pulled up. But like, the idea was, it was a bunch of girls moving into their, into their dorm room, the first day of college. And Schneider shows up and addresses, and claims he's one of their roommates. And it's clear that he's not. And he's just a perv. Yeah, that was January of 94. That was a

long time ago. That was very early on in the show in terms of the placement. So, Yeah, that did well. Did it do well? I can't believe it. I thought it did pretty well. I mean, that was a hot show. I mean, they had the Gap Girls with Farley. They had Blossom.

They had a lot of sketches that episode that did well. Early on in the episode with Patrick Stewart hosted, you wrote sexy cakes. Now, the Patrick Stewart episode was tough on laughs from the cold open, the monologue. It was not a good audience. Sexy Cakes, did that peak in dress? Did that do much better in dress than it would of air? It was very, very early in the show, and I was just wondering. You must have, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm fond of that one. That one was, the idea was, Patrick Stewart owns an erotic cakes bakery, you know, like the kind of bakery where they, like, you know, what those are. And it's the only thing. he thinks as erotic as women going to the bathroom.

So and he like he loved it. I know that that's like exactly this like it turns out that's really exactly his sense of humor where he liked that that's kind of. Patrick Stewart?

Oh God, yes. Yeah. He wrote in his book that he did not have a good experience hosting the show and I was surprised because he seemed like he had fun but maybe that's the actor in him. Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, you know, there's a lot going on. I don't, I don't remember.

But it's possible. Can you talk about Norm MacDonald? Were you there when he punched out Ian Mackstone Graham? Yes. What happened? What did you witness? What happened? They were fighting, like, that day, or maybe for a couple days over,

you weren't allowed to smoke indoors on the 17th floor. This was a fairly new thing in America that you weren't allowed to smoke places. And Norm McDonnell didn't give a shit and was smoking as much as he wanted. And it was really annoying. Ian, who's very into his, Ian is like very athletic and into his health. And Ian is now like in his 60s and could kick him. all our asses and then run four marathons afterwards. And then so Ian used to, as also part of his health,

he used to carry on like a biker's water bottle that has like that sort of straw at the end that you squirt into your mouth when you're on a bike. And so he could stay hydrated. And so he like he enters the like the big rewrite room and Norm is there smoking. and like he just squirted the bottle as if to put out the cigarette and that pissed off Norm, Norm hit him. And then Ian immediately

just got on this left. He just left. And he just left and like, called a lawyer. And then I don't know what happened. And then everything was fine. It wasn't that big. Considering it was someone punching a coworker, it really wasn't that big of you. And like, they'd have to be.

They got over. They got over it. It's just sort of like, Norm is a weird dude and his own, he's like, you know, he's sui generis and like his own type of guy and like something he's going to hit someone and just that's part of the deal. It wasn't the only fight he got in when he was at SNL, the only physical fight. But like he's, that's just what he is. Would you contribute to Norm's update when he was doing an update? Originally it was for the first couple weeks he was with Herb Sargent and then. Yes. I think Ian. Yeah, yeah, because like Ian, Ian worked with him on update after that for a lot. You know, like they got, they got over it. It was, it was, it was a remarkable thing. And that someone punched someone on 17. David Mandel mentioned that, that he was helping out Norm with, with update and some other people were. And then Norm did an interview where he claimed that he was writing an update himself. And then Mandel said, because of that interview, he said he stopped. contribute and were you also one of the review also? Yeah, it's like like there's a kind of thing where like

especially if you didn't have anything on that week it was fun to write update because like generally the sketch writers do not write update like at least at the time they really didn't it was sort of like Herb Sargent had his group of like

outside writers who had back some jokes and they would use them but like we liked Norm and we really felt like Norm was doing something really special on update and like we wanted to be a part of it. And so like the younger writers would like stay all night on Friday and write jokes.

And like we would sit there with a yellow pad like this and like you would like we would all just sit around quietly and you'd write, you think of a joke, and like you'd just sit around with newspapers so you could get used the, you know, like every newspaper in New York and like that so you could read the headline and that would be the setup.

So you'd get the setup and you'd be looking at it and just around doing the math and try to figure out what the norm style joke was and you'd just write the joke on a yellow pad and just give it to no quite and just give it to norm and norm would read it and like someone would work and some of them wouldn't work and like that we'd just do that for hours

and it's really like tons of fun and then he said he wrote it all himself. Yeah, and then people didn't want to write for him anymore. It was just like, we're like, we could sleep. It's obvious, I've been here for two years, sort of thinking about leaving anyway. I could sleep goodbye. I want to ask you if my theory is correct. You got your initials on the Sandler Hanukkah song, and I don't know how much you contributed.

In royalties, my guess is you've got a. seven figures over the years of royalties easily. Am I even close? Really? Seven figures, like a million dollars? The only reason is I talked to somebody else who had their initials on and they told me after a couple years that how much money they made off of it with royalties. And I was just doing the math in my head.

It was me, Sandler and Ian. Yeah. And Ian Maxton Graham. And it was basically like, Adam should get 90. 99.99% of the credit. And, like, you know, it's his idea and, like, is his thing and, like, he wrote the music and, like, it's totally his deal, his thing.

But, like, me and Ian were in the room with him just coming up with rhymes. And we're, like, it was the three of us and, like, the book of Jewish lists. Do you remember that? Like, in the 80s, the book of lists was a big deal. Everyone had that in the bathroom.

And there was, like, if you were Jewish, you also had the book of Jewish lists. And so we had the book of Jewish lists. a list of Jewish celebrities and we were just doing those. We were just like plugging those in and coming up with rhymes. But like, oh, there's nothing. Oh, like, like, no. Like at its peak, like in a year, like, I might be like five grand.

I mean, it's been a long time. I mean, if you add the five, five K up on the old year. Now it's less, of course. Oh, it's less. Okay. Because it plays in the radio every year. I wasn't sure. I'm on radio.

Like, it really, like, it turns out in the world of ASCAP, when it comes up a lot at Senate Live, is like, where you really make money for someone singing it on camera? Yeah. And, like, no, it's cool. And, like, Senate Live would also, for some reason, I have no idea why they'd let you have publishing rights to the songs you wrote.

So you'd get paid twice. Because, like, like, the publishing rights to songs is a huge business. It's sort of like that was. was sort of like Elvis's whole thing, you know, like we'd make you sign over the publishing rights. But like they would let us keep the publishing rights. And like, I assume we wanted to do anything with the song and actually publish it. They would say no and my rights wouldn't be worth anything. But we would get it. You'd get a check. It was insane. Yeah. I mean, take the money and run. Do you think it was necessary? I don't think this happens

to the extent anymore that Jim Downey would keep the writers up to like four or five in the morning on Thursday to do rewrites? Do you think that that was necessary and really did help the show to keep people up that late? I think the show was nocturnal enough that that's just how it works. You know, I don't, I think it would be, as I remember it, it would have seemed more unreasonable for having to have a show up at 9 a.m., which is like to end earlier was what it would have taken, you know. Could we have started promptly at noon and got home a little earlier? Sure, but like, you know, like the rewrite was really beneficial and if anything,

probably there should have been more of it. Jay Moore mentioned, and I think in his book, that Jim Downey during the rewrites, it would be in the middle of the night Thursday, would show VHS tapes of his basketball, high school basketball team. Do you recall that? Oh, yeah, yeah, the Joliet High School basketball team. It wouldn't really be in the middle of rewrites. Okay.

But it would be when you wanted to go home. And it's just sort of like he just thought it was kind of funny. He did not let him go home. And it was like, wasn't really most people. It was the younger people who had nowhere to go of which Jay may or may not have been one. Like, I don't remember a lot of Jay there. for that. But like, for like me and Mandel and Luckner, it's like, yeah, yeah, the guy who gave us our first job in show business, or like our only job in show business and like is an absolute genius. And like,

all we're trying to do is learn from Downey and that's the entire purpose of our lives. If he wants us to not go home and he wants to dick around, watch college, watch high school basketball with us, yeah, we're going to do it. Like, like, sure. We'd be crazy not to. And like, you know, it like, like, it was fun. You worked with Mike Judge. They did the Beavis and Budhead revival. And Mike Judge, when you were there, was doing some shorts.

Is that how you first got to know him? And what was that like with having him at the show and him doing the Milton shorts? I knew not believe he was ever at the show. Oh, he was just, he made them and SNL just kind of put those on. Okay. So he wasn't from there. He was doing them remotely. And we talked about, um,

there was definitely a time when my sketch was cut so they could run one of the shorts. And I was, like, I was really mad. Do you remember the sketch? It might have been that one we talked about earlier, the one with the home shopping network. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The necklace made of the eye teeth of Frank Homer and Baker. But Mike Judge. Yeah, the stuff had to get on it.

Yeah. I was going to ask about a sketch that a lot of people talk about. On paper it worked, but it was a tough sketch, was the season premiere of, I think it was 94-95, but it was Steve Martin the Nutrithic sketch. I know that a lot of people, I know that that got Brian Kelly hired. I mean, in terms of it on paper, and then on air, it kind of died. Can you talk about Nutrific and the progress? I know that a lot of you helped out on it and revised it.

The idea was that it was an ad company, like pitching the ad they've come up with for the nut-rific candy bar. And it's like a song, like a song about nutrific. And the tagline is it's not very good. And it's sort of like they don't quite understand why they don't like to add. And it was a good sketch. It did eat it. and I don't remember exactly why, but I think, I would say, that, like, one is that the song was really slow.

That's true. And so, like, in a sketch that was kind of like, it's sort of like a sketch of the form where it's sort of repetitive and you see what's coming, like where the audience is way ahead of it, you see what's coming, and like those can be great. It's like they're going to be a lot of fun. But you see what you know what's going to happen, it's going to happen. But, like, there was this song in it that was like, it was, there was no performance in the song.

And it was very, they were just standing there, yeah. And it was very, like, like, it wasn't a fun song. It wasn't like, like, a lot of times in a comedy when you have a song, it's absolutely delightful and gives you a ton of energy. And somehow this song robbed you of energy. And it's another thing, like, at the read through, it probably, the song gave a lot of energy. It seemed like this is going to be great. And then just, like, on its feet, it was really slow. And also, I think like any time you have a sketch that's not based on the performance and its kind of premisey, you're at risk.

You know, or like it might just die. Like, like you're much safer with a big performance, you know. What stands out with Chris Smith, New York Magazine, Saturday Night Dead when that hit? I mean, the people at the show still talk about it and are. apparently fearful to let journalists have full access to the show because Chris Smith was given unprecedented three months access and wrote this piece. What stands out? What do you recall about the show, the response and you reading the piece? Did you think there was a fair piece? Parts of it were and parts of it weren't. I remember there's a part like sort of implying

that like I think Kevin Neeland didn't, hadn't rehearsed, which was unfair. I feel like it was, like, there were definitely things that were unfair, and, like, it definitely read, like, Genean Giroffalo dictated it. But, like, the show wasn't great. So you all knew that during that the season, what would those discussions be like? The show was just, what we know we're struggling, and were there any suggestions to improve it, or what, how did that go? the show that show at least quite is it very much it didn't feel like a we you know there isn't really like we need to improve this it's it's sort of like I need to get my sketch on and have my sketch be good

and like it like you know like there's definitely like a thing where I when I first got my first job out in LA like run a sitcom like being fairly shocked that it felt like everyone was on the same team all the time. That was Doze News Radio. You know, like, no one really, at least then, I felt like felt a lot of ownership over the show as a whole.

You know, which I think is definitely colored the discussion of that. But like, you know, it's, it's, it's, You know, like, it, it was frustrating. You know, when things, Rochelle wasn't really good, it's frustrating, you know, like people would definitely get frustrated. They get frustrated with each other, with, you know, with, you know,

people who weren't themselves often. And like, and then also, you know, there's a certain moment where, like, some of, like, when, when the knives are out for silent live, it does feel kind of unfair. It feels like, like, it'll sit over the top, like Matt Roush, at USA Today, and I remember this, said that the writer should have their legs broken.

I remember them saying Laura Kightliner had the worst commentary in the history of the show. And I'm like, that is so unfair. It was the season premiere. And I was like, man. Come on, man. Yeah. They were vicious. Do you recall when it was announced, I think, in one of the trades that Norm was going to co-update with Laura Kightliner.

They were going to do the news together. Norm said, I'm absolutely not. I don't want it if I can't do it alone. Do you remember that week when it was basically it was going to be Laura Kightliner and Norm doing the news kit together? I do not think that was taking very seriously. Okay. I don't like, I don't remember it that way. I mean, it's possible as I touched on before, I had no idea what was going on.

Sure. I was largely just happy to be there, but I don't remember that thing so. Do you remember Jay Moore when he did that sketch? I think it was Paul Reiser hosted. It was the pub sketch that he later admitted was ripped off from comic Rick Shapiro. Do you recall that being an issue with this show? What can you, what happened? Well, this is funny because it was the plot of a Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, like

That's right. And like on Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, when they found out that they had aired a sketch that had been plagiarized, they took it very, very seriously. And before the West Coast feed, it's like, like the guy gets out there and gives a really important speech about plagiarism or whatever. And like, and like what really happens is that guy who really wrote it, you send him a check. Yeah, Rick Shapiro got paid off. She denied it at the time. They sent Rick Shapiro as check, and everyone moved on with their lives. But, yeah.

Can you tell us a Chris Barley story that we might not have heard something about maybe your friendship with him or relationship? I don't know if you're friends, but something that we might not know about Chris that you've witnessed that we're- I didn't really know him personally. He was the funniest guy to be in a room with, like in the history of humankind. he really was exactly like he appeared on screen all the time. We're just like he, like, all he wanted to do is make you laugh, and there's something, but also you get there's a little bit of sadness, which I think was on screen too, was part of his genius,

a little bit of sadness there where if he didn't have that laugh, he would die or just sort of like he had mostly needed that laugh so much but not in the way of like an annoying friend who makes jokes all the time it's just like he was just fucking funny everything he did he was so fucking funny

and he needed you to laugh at him so much that you just loved him for it you know it's just like like and like but like my story is I shared an office with Jay

and Attal and Steve Lutner and one very late night um Farley decided he wanted to shit out the window on the 17th floor and Jay Moore was holding his hand so he didn't tumble to his death and he took shit up in the window of interesting

yeah I think Dave Atel bribed him or said I'll pay you five dollars or so something. I think that was it. Can you talk about the Monday pitch meetings? You meet the host for the first time. What stands out? Any stories about the pitch meetings with the hosts? Oh, yeah. It's certainly you've heard that a lot of times you would pitch, like, you would pitch a fake idea so you could keep your powder dry on your real idea. And like, I, with Alec Baldwin once pitched a fake idea and he sought me out afterwards to tell

him how much he liked it and like oh fuck I have to write it now. What was it? It was just it was just the words bad costume theater and like there was nothing that's all that's all I had and then I

when the sketch got to read through that's still all I had it wasn't very good but he was like a nice his guy on earth. Yeah. When he was hosted. Like that.

Yeah, that's when he was still known for being dramatic, a dramatic actor. And he was always so good on that show. What were those retreats like to Montauk? Those, they were still doing that when you were there. It was the Mohunk Mountain House. That's where it was. Yeah, up in the Catskills. And, yeah, that was my first thing.

It's like, that's how I met everyone mostly. It was up in Mohunk. It was, like, totally fun. It was sort of like go to, like, the way to meet everyone. as you go to summer camp with them. And like there was some writing of, of commercial parodies. That was nominally what it was for,

but mostly it was like a, it was a fun team building boondoggle. Were you on set for the commercial parodies, anyone that stands out with Jim Singarelli directing the commercials? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely it was. I know there's one that Brian Kelly wrote where it was something where like, I don't remember the premise, but the idea, but like,

the idea is like you have a monkey in your house that just. After a monkey. After a monkey. Yeah. And it took so long to light it that the monkey got very tired. Like it was just like, all right, monkey, go crazy, destroy the set. The monkey is just like, um. I don't feel like it anymore.

Okay. And so we had this monkey and we just never got it. I remember that way, really frustrated. It was just like, oh, God. I think that might have been Marissa Tameh when she hosted.

That was, um, yeah, we had been in early 90, 95 and it's like, yeah. Oh, boy,

what are we going to do? It's like just, we're just really looking for this monkey to just go crazy. And it's just like, well, no, we'll turn the camera on the camera on the camera,

monkey for an hour. It means we need five seconds of crazy. we just did not get it. Do you have any stories about Marcy Kleiner? Can you talk about her involvement and her importance in the show? Oh, she was definitely important in the show. And like the, she was like,

the talent whisperer. She had Lauren's ear for sure. He had Lauren's ear. And she went on at 30 Rock to be like the Alec Baldwin whisperer. Like she had, she was like, she could talk to Alec

Alec Baldwin would you know if if there Alec Baldwin never objected to anything it was like send it you know

more she could talk to him there was Alice like but yeah nice I'm going to mention some of the episodes when you were there

and if you have any stories about certain host Charlton Heston oh it was just really really cool to meet Charlton Heston and like that was

that was a week where like there was a moment on like Saturday morning where everyone is lined up to get something autographed. Did that planet of the apes cold open and the monologue were wonderful? That was, I think David Mandel, those were really fun. Let me see. Nancy Kerrigan? That was a tough one where like, like, absolutely a non-actor. And like, but like, but like.

no one in America was willing to give to give her any benefit for the doubt about that. We're like, yeah, she was really wouldn't and not great. She's not actor. And like, the kind of thing we're like,

like, I would imagine the biggest problem is we didn't protect her enough. And, but like, people were very happy to not like Nancy Kerrigan. at that point for whatever reason. And like,

it was a huge rating because it was like, it was, she was like she had just had, you know, won a gold medal or whatever or whatever it was, whatever it happened with her. She was in the headlines with Tanya Hardin. So the ratings were through the roof,

but it was a really tough episode in terms of the response. I think there were maybe one or two good sketches that got audience reaction. But I hope like Norm, norm had a really funny idea. that I helped him right. What was it?

It was a talk show with Olympic athletes who had been injured. Oh, I love that. And it's like, she was like, yeah, I got hit in the knee. And yet, like, it was a biathlete got shot in the face. That was Rob Schneider, got shot in the face. They had, like, they were, like, you know, poor and in obscurity. And she, her problem seemed not pretty bad in comparison. Yeah, Norm was a professional looser.

And he had to have a day job at the lumber yard. And that was a really funny sketch. So that was you and Norm. I'll give all the credit to my name. You had attribution. You and David Mandel writing the Cold Open when Amelia Westavaz hosted. And they did the Canaan sketch. And then, um, can you talk about this?

And Mandel was saying in the monologue, they were writing as he was doing the monologue. Can you talk about the cold open into that monologue with the Michael Faye Canaan in cold open into the monologue. I don't remember the monologue. I don't remember the monologue part. but the cold open like that week there was the story that this kid had like spit gum or something was going to get came in Singapore and like when the story first broke early in the week America's reaction to it was basically what a dumbass this kid is ha ha he's going to get at public spanking

and then as the week, and we wrote the sketch, and the sketch was basically, he keeps caning Emilioz de Vez, and every time he canes him, it was a big laugh. And so, like, as the week went on, the news story changed. The news story said, hey, wait a minute,

this caning is unbelievably barbaric, and it's not a public spanking. It's like torture, and this kid didn't do anything. And so, like, we were, slow to react. Like, we should have just pulled it. And, like, I said, it would be,

22 years old. No, I'm just in the stomach. And, like, like, and like, so by the time it aired, when they do that, the first caning, that's really funny.

And it was like, it was like, it was Kevin Neeland being the caner, and the idea is he was just really breezy about it. And like, like, like, like, really, just chatty and like,

like, whatever. And like, it's like, early in the week, it seemed really funny. And like in front of the audience, the first caning, like the audience gasped in horror. And it's like, oh, no. There's a lot more canings to go and they're not funny at all. And like they're like, and like we have this whole issue completely wrong because we were going on what people thought about it on Monday. and it was an enormous disaster. It was a horror.

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the episode, at the end of the cold open, it says the bad news, the good news is something, and the bad news is live from New York at Saturday night, kind of foreshadowing that it was going to be a tough episode and the cold open was a little bit rough.

I don't think anything else about that episode than that. It was Amelia Westef as Pearl Jam, and once again, that season, they were not letting standbys in almost ever, and it was all VIP audience, and it was just they were not good. The VIP audiences were awful. Yeah, and they don't do that anymore.

They let usually between 60 and 80 standbys in every episode, just to ensure that it's a good audience. Heather Locklear. You have to understand, I only remember if I got a sketch on. Okay, I'll keep going. I'll remember, and I did. So it was great. Oh, what was it?

Do you remember? I think it was Rob Schneider Girlfriend Theater. Heather Locklear. I don't know. It wasn't. It wasn't. I didn't get one on. That show was terrible.

Okay. That was the season finale. I don't remember. Oh, it was a season finale too. I don't remember anything about it. What about when Martin Lawrence was there? That was kind of controversial with the monologue. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yeah, he gave this monologue about how smelly women's vaginas are. I don't know. It was like he just, no one. knew what he did it at dress and I was just like oh my god and it's like had a line about some some women need to stick a tick to tick up to pass that's what it was and in reruns they had to take that out I know this is so horrible I don't know what we're going to like like surely someone will tell him you cannot do this monologue and who knows what he's going to do on air but

sure isn't going to be this and lent I just remember him walking into like the big meeting between dressing near him walking into the just just sort of strutting into the meeting with like some like some of his people behind him and like going and like some women smell so bad cause havoc in the household write that down and just as like oh he doesn't know he doesn't know that he didn't know that he can't do it um he's he's writing more jokes for it um and then he got in and i guess and like is the kind of thing we're like in this I guess no one's going to tell him in the meeting because they don't want to humiliate him and someone will tell them after the he'll definitely do just because he's a stand-up comic he can just do any part of his stand-up

he's so easy to change it and then like then he gets up like he gets up there um do his monologue and like i remember like going out and standing by the cameras like like off and the right you'd go stand behind the audience by the cameras you could see and like like just i wonder what he's going to do probably something really funny it does the same thing again I was like, oh, no, oh, what's happening? That was very controversial at the time. A couple more hosts, John Malkovich. Oh, thank God.

Thank God, this isn't my problem. Oh, oh, my God. Yeah, what was Melch? I don't remember. I don't remember that show. John Malkovich, they did a baseball cold open with tobacco spitting, and it went all over on Melanie Hutzel's face. There was a piece about, it was the, it was that, was that the, was that, was that

Menendez. Menendez brothers. The Menendez brothers, I really enjoyed. Yeah, that's Jim Downey and Mandela, I think. I feel like I learned a lot from the Menendez brothers sketch about just, like, the power of very deliberate slowness. And like, sometimes, like, it's harder on Saturday Live because, like, you don't, it's a lot. You don't have control of the deliberate slowness. And you want, you want, like, absolute iron hands. and editing over something that's deliberately slow.

And like, but like, but like, yeah, that was... One of the writers told me when Jason Patrick was there that he just clearly didn't want to be there and it was a tough episode. Is that what you recall? I know he was like the lowest energy, least funny guy in the world. It was just like it was not a good guy.

venue for his talents. It seemed like he just like the amount of not funny he was, was true, was really total and complete. Yeah, that was a rough show. That was a tough monologue. John Travolta. Oh, great. Just a fun guy.

Really fun. We ran, like, and then, like, 2017, 2018, when we won, when we won the, we won the Emmy for Veep and me and Mandel were at like this after after party and he had won for like some like mini series about the OJ trial

and like we ran into him and we're all holding our Emmys and just like when you host a China Live in 1993 we wrote this and this and this and like he was thrilled and he never was a fun show no it was a good episode I know that you had

I think worked with Steve Corrin on the Larry King. It was Brando, Trouble to Plain Brando and Kevin Nealon is Larry King. I'm sure my contribution was very timely. It was fun. What did you think at the Jim Downey Dock? What did the takeaways of the Jim Downey Doc, in your opinion and his brilliance? Yeah, it was great. It's just gratifying to see, like, Downey getting his due.

It's like when I was there, it's like, I, like, basically, like, Tuesday night when everyone's writing, it's like, people would just follow him around, like, like, make way for ducklings. You know, just hope, like, if you got five minutes of his time, he would write the funniest joke in your sketch. He would just read it and, like, I remember, like, one of, like, my, like, advantages. with working with Downey is like I had a laptop and I could type, which was like really rare then. It's like people were still writing on yellow pads, right? And they give them to the script department who are these four women who were there for decades.

And they would, they had computers and they would type it into the computer and print it. And like I had a computer that like was like not only also an Apple laptop, but the exact model of an Apple laptop they had. And like, I would write, they would give me their template and I would write out the sketch. I would type the sketch in the template because I had like come from college and I knew what a computer was. And like, I would like, and then I would just give them the disc. And they would print it out and retype it and then print it out again because there was no, there was just, their workflow was completely based on yellow pads and they did not trust.

You know, they had to get everything right. There was no room for them to fuck up. And like they had, it was just safer for them to just treat it like I had given them a weird yellow pad. But like, like, I could like, when Downey wanted to write something, I would, like, he would sometimes bring me in because, like, purely because I could type. and like Downie Downie really like believed in me

and like gave me a lot of like always gave me a lot of credit and always like always like you know like really a wonderful professional mentor like that

like to extent like I still feel like I never deserved and but like in a lot of cases I feel like a lot of it's because I could type and I had a computer and but like we would sit and like just seeing how here

and like writing with Downey It's just you're there that he's writing. But just seeing how he did it was kind of amazing, where he would start with the beginning, and he would sort of like act it out, and then he would go back and he would act it out again, and then he would add a line. And then he'd write that down.

And then he would go back to the beginning, and he'd act out the whole sketch we had to date, and then add another line. And then, like, you'd write that down. And then he'd go back to the beginning, and he'd do the whole sketch, and then like that. and like and like

it was sort of fascinating I was wondering in his process that's interesting do you have any stories about the after parties or anything surreal or anything that stands out about the parties

after the show? It's crazy that they have them yeah like sometimes we would go to like afterwards you would go to like weird after hours clubs where they would have illegal blackjack where they would play.

I remember once they got busted for the blackjack and everyone had to sneak out the back door. And like they seemed like this happened all the time. It didn't bother them at all. The people who ran the place. And like, it's like, and like coming like right out of college,

it's sort of like, I just assume people drank the way they do in college. But like it's sort of set up that way where you like, it's sort of like a really weird, maybe not the best lifestyle to have for a lot, lead for a long time. But it was often in a place called Sufuzi. Did you go to those?

Did you, what did, as if, is it like a big fan? Is it like a big time of life and a big comedy fan? Would you like, as I remember, find out where they were and go there to like get autographs or meet people? I started, I went, I started going to season after you were there. It was Will Ferrell's first season. So I was there. That's when I started to go to those.

And they weren't asking for IDs. I'm sure they do now, but it was very... You would actually go in. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't 21. I wasn't when I was coming in. Oh, I don't, I think they had a list and they would, when I remember in our, I don't think they would have kept you out.

Oh, I wore a suit and like, I knew enough people from going there that they saw my face that people would get me in. Of course. Who did you know? Who did you know? Um, I was, I was acquaintances with, um, I'll tell you afterwards with some people and some people would get me in. Other times I was snuck into the show.

and I got in some trouble eventually. We'll get to that. I'll tell you that off. But yeah, the parties were very interesting, especially back then when Will Ferrell his first season because the show was so unpopular, they were having trouble getting host. And, you know, there would be empty tables.

I mean, at some of those parties in the beginning of the season, and it was such a big deal if you could sit down at the table. But back then, there were so many empty seats, anyone could sit down. So, yeah, it took a while. for people to really get in on that. David DeCovney was your last show on Saturday Night Live.

There was a season finale with Rod Stewart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What stands out? Did you know this was probably going to be your last episode and you wanted to move on and what stands out about that episode? They did that Fred Wolf Haller Bear sketch at the end.

Like when they really sort of cleaned house and they were going to bring in a lot of new cast members and a lot of new writers. And, like, I kind of didn't want to start over. And, like, the more that seemed clear, the more I was, like, I should try to think of what the next thing is. And, like, part of it is being, like, again,

I had no idea what was going on in any phase of show business. And, like, I didn't realize it might be hard to find a second job. where like and like I meet people now it's like it can be really hard to find your second job it's been really really difficult

and like but then like for a certain extent just like show business is a little bit easier a lot of job and there were fewer people who wanted them

the multi-camps were ubiquitous now it's there's so rare aren't that many comedies and like yeah and like and like those multi-cams

you just need joke monkeys and like like my strength when I was really young and I didn't really know how to write yet, but I was funny. And like, you can, you don't need to know how to write if you're funny enough and like you can work. And like, I did find my next job, uh, pretty quickly and pretty easily, but like I could have,

I could have really been fucking myself. Oh, it did well. News, Radio, Futurama. Yeah. Like, like, yeah. No, you did really well. I was going to say, um, Robert Smigel mentioned to me that the season after, um, you were there, Lauren thought that there were too many. And I was Lampoon people and he only had one person from Lampoon, which I believe was Dennis McNicholas, who they hired, was the only person there. I think Downey was brought back to do update. But could you tell a difference in the sketch writing and the tone after the season that you were there? I really couldn't tell much of a difference. There's like different. I mean, in that there's different actors and like it had a different,

you know, they do different things. And like they, like, they were smart and did a lot of stuff those very performancey. Big character groundline sketches. I think when Lauren complains about Lampoony is complaining about stinky premise sketches where there's nothing to perform, which now like, like, like, like when you,

you know, I remember just all I wanted to do my second year is write sketches that made Jack Candy laugh at read through. All I cared about. really just like and like if i made jack handy laugh at read through i was thrilled and didn't matter if it got on and it's it's not a great way to get a sketch on yeah he was there only a couple times he wasn't there throughout the whole season but he was there for still doing it out he did the the george collooney episode i know he was there for that one and a couple others but to make

he was he was there for a bunch that year so it was you know it's exciting to come around do you have a particular jack handy sketch that you like your favorite sketch or something that he wrote that season that stood out to you? You know, kind of like tails of malfeasance in the railway industry? Yeah, that was George Clooney. It was really funny. That was Cloney and Cranberries.

Yeah, that was Molly Shannon's first episode. That's really cool. Yeah, Lou, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate that. We looked the same as when I first met you. I was in my teen, under 20s. It's identical. So this was fun.

I really, really appreciate this. No, I am tickled and flattered. and a little weirded out that anyone knows anything I wrote. The sketches or that I wrote them or both. Very strange. Thank you, sir. Thanks for listening.

Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcast, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news. And you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com. slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.