Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Inside Late Night: Wyatt Cenac

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Stand up comedian and comedy writer Wyatt Cenac is the first guest on the new season of Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Wyatt joins Mark to tell some great stories about his time at Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show.Make sure to follow us on social media (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠) and subscribe on all podcast platforms and YouTube ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@latenightercom⁠ to never miss an episode!

From Late Nighter.com, it's Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Hello everybody and welcome to Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. My name is John Schneider and I am the producer for Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff. Malkoff, and I'm so excited to be here to welcome you to the first episode of the new season of Inside Late Night, where today Mark will be speaking to Wyatt Sannack, an amazing comedian and writer who's been in the world of Late Night TV for so long. He was on the daily show for many years, and he's going to be here today to talk to Mark about his time in late night TV and tell a lot of great stories. We're also very excited for all of the other interviews

we have coming up that Mark has hosted and prepared for you this season. we have personalities from late night past and present to share with you all season long. So I hope you stay subscribed to our new late-nighter podcast feed where Mark will have new episodes of Inside Late Night for you every single Tuesday throughout the entire fall. It's going to be a blast. We'll also have another show hosted by me called Late Night Last Night, where I will tell you what has happened on Late Night TV the night before each and every weekday. So I'm very excited for all of that and everything we have over at,

late-nighter.com right now. So this is going to be a great conversation between Wyatt and Mark. I just wanted to set the table for you. But without further ado, here is Mark Malkoff. Wyatt Seneck. Nice to see you. Nice to see you, Mark. Thanks for having me. Thank you. So where were you and how old were you when you were watching later with Bob Costas? And you see Rob Schneider is the guest. And he's talking about Saturday Night Live and he's talking about how we got on the show. And back then, really no internet, giant mystery, how somebody would get on SNL and he said something on the fact that he sent in a tape and a letter. And I'm guessing that was probably his representation because he did add representation. You are watching this

very impressionable. How old were you? Where were you when you watched this? I was probably, I mean, I guess I was 18. I was a freshman in college. I was at the University of North Carolina and it was my freshman year. And I, like most freshmen was up late, watching later with Bob Costas. like we were, I don't know if we were the target demo, but when there weren't a lot of other options on and you wanted some television, you found yourself listening to Bob Costas while you sat there and did nothing or whatever it was you're doing. But yeah, so I was, I was a freshman in college and I heard Rob Schneider say this in an interview while I was 18 trying to figure out how I could potentially drop out of school and focus myself on a career in late-night comedy.

We're watching Eddie Murphy is very influential on Saturday Night Live, clearly at the start of the show. And in your head, it is a mystery back then. I'm a little bit less than three months older than you. We were both the same year, and it's one of those things were back then, how do you get on this show? So you hear Rob Schneider that he sent a letter, a tape. So what is your letter? You put a stamp on 30 Rockefeller Plaza, New York, New York, 1,0, 112. And what does your letter say?

Who do you address this to? Yeah, what do you say? So the first letter, I sent a letter, I believe, to Lorne. I believe I sent it to Lorne's office and just said, hey, I would really like to be a cast member and a writer on your show. And, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I was the only person who was up at, you know, 1.30 in the morning on a random Wednesday that learn that this is the way you do it, but this is my application.

And shortly after that, and maybe, you know what, I think that one just so that it wasn't simply, hey, I'd like a job, I also enclosed some sketches that I wrote. and I had been writing sketches, which was often why I was up late at night. And so I'd been writing some sketches, and I submitted some sketches and said, hey, just so you know that I'm actually serious about this, here's some stuff I wrote. And I got a letter back with my sketches, and it was on official NBC paper and said, hey we can't read this for legal reasons but my 18 year old brain kind of took it as like you can't read it or you won't read it and after that I figured well if Lauren can't read it

maybe I need to send it to some of the writers or some of the cast and so then I sent I sent it to more people at the show and again this is a time as you said it's before the internet it's also a time where you're not really emailing people. So when you're sending it, you're actually having to go to a Kinko's, print out all these things, pay money to pay for all these photocopies of sketches and cover letters and then address a cover letter to each person and pay for postage on all this. And so at that time, I feel like I've sunk a decent amount of cash. into sending this out and so yeah and so then i sent it out to a bunch of different people at the show and eventually it got into the hands of a an assistant of lauren's i think had seen because he saw

the letter the first time and i think saw it come again and i think the second time around i said hey i'd also be interested in an internship i know you got to start from somewhere And so he called me and said, hey, I got your letter. Like, legally, we can't read this because if we happen to have a sketch that's similar to one of the ones that you wrote, that would be a problem for us. So we just can't read it for that reason, which I got. And he said, but I saw you were interested in internship. You should reach out to this woman, Karen Nathanson.

and she's the person in charge of internships. And so I did. And then a little after my sophomore year started, I dropped out of college and flew up to New York to be an intern. You were 19. You're living with your grandmother at the time. And you're an intern in the research department. At that point, was Davey Wilson's son Tom Wilson still in research? Both the Wilson brothers were still there.

Yeah. Tom was doing research. And so Karen was the person who oversaw the internship, but Tom was my day-to-day contact. I've heard he was really fun, and he was pals with Sandler and all those guys. You just missed them, I guess, a year or two before. But what was that like being in research? What stands out? What are some of your favorite times as being an intern?

And you had the advantage that you were not in school. And I don't know how that was arranged because normally you have to get an internship credit. I don't know if did they know you weren't getting internship credit? I, that's a good question. I mean, eventually I did get credit for it, but I do remember because because school had started and then I, like the first week of school had started, I left school, learned I got the internship, then had to go back to school, drop out. And I remember the registrar in the registrar's office basically going to them and saying, hey, I just got this internship.

They were like, who's it through? And then I had to find a professor to basically say that he would approve the internship. And so I was doing all of this on the fly. And then I remember going to the registrar and saying, I know that school just started, but I'm not going to be in school. So can I have my money back? And they were not happy about that. And it took a lot of back and forth before they finally gave me my prorated tuition back. I love that you got your money back.

I know people that were over at SNL that were paying, that paid the money just to do the internship like most people do. I'm glad that you were able to get your money. Now they pay people minimum wage. I think there was a lawsuit. So the advantage you have right now is that the interns normally can only go to school maybe a couple times a week because they're going to college. You don't have any other place to be and you want to be at 30 Rock. So you get to be there all week. What was that like?

It was great. It was weird because, like you said, the other interns were there a few days a week. I got to see everything from start to finish. And because I was just there for that, I would show up around, you know, 11, 10 in the morning. And I wouldn't leave until one or two in the morning. And part of that was because they had cable and my grandmother didn't. And so I had cable. They would feed me.

I was around all these really talented and funny people. And so for me, it felt a bit like a job because I was there so much. And they're, you know, they would send you out sometimes to go run errands. But for the most part, because I was around all the time, I just kind of got to go wherever they needed me in the office. And I just felt a bit like the furniture where it was just, okay, yeah, you need me to do photocopies? Sure, I'll do that. You need me to do this. You need me to just go and pick up the AP photos, which was a thing that we would have to do for weekend update, where you would go to A.P.

which was just another building over and you would pick up this envelope of photos and they were photos that the update writers would look at and potentially write jokes to. So they associated pressure going there. I know you would go to the Today's show to get video clips of a cast member was doing an impression. So are you sitting down with the update people in watching people like Greg Sebastiano and Ross Abras and Jim Downey pitching jokes with Lori Jo, who worked with. Norm or are you there for those things? Are you able to contribute at all? I wasn't and I wasn't

contributing but I would get the you know I would get a sort of instructions from Lori Joe of hey can you you know go do this and sometimes they would also be the things of like hey here's my credit card can you go pick up my prescription for something and I had to say no and I think there was an element of like, no, no one is going to let a 19 year old black kid walk in with a credit card that says Lori Joe and pick up some drugs from Walgreens. That's just not working. This was a long time ago. It was almost 30 years ago, 29 right now, but I was going to the show the year before, a bunch up until then. And I have to say, and I'd been up to 17, I don't remember one person of color that was a staff member.

Actually, I know I can think of one that was, but it was, in your recollection, it was almost all white. There were a few crew people, but, I mean, in terms of being white back then, thankfully, there's a lot of diversity over there. There's much more now. But back then, was that tough? And is that your recollection that it was a very white place on the 17th floor? Oh, yeah. It was just, it was just Tim Meadows and Tracy Morgan.

It was Tracy's first year. And so I think, you know, for Tracy, there was this element of, I knew who Tracy was. was because I had seen Tracy on this sketch show that would come on on Saturday nights after Showtime at the Apollo called the Uptown Comedy Club. And I remember it was like Tracy Morgan was there, Jim Brewer was there, this comedian flex, like there were all these comics, Joe Claire, all these comedians that were on that show. And so when Jim Brewer got to S&L, Tracy came, I think, the year after, maybe two years after. I don't remember the year after.

Yeah. And so I knew Tracy. And in my mind, Tracy was huge to me because I'd watched him in this show and I knew his characters. I knew this character he did Biscuit. And I was like, oh, fuck, Tracy Morgan is here now. And I just remember, you know, Tracy not really have it. Like there was nobody writing for Tracy in that way. And as I'm trying to learn this stuff, at some point, I remember going to Tracy and, like, Tracy was like, you could write some sketches for me.

And I wrote a biscuit sketch for Tracy that he ultimately didn't, he wasn't wild about. And at the time, I remember it was, it was as the election was happening. And so I had written this sketch where Bob Dole and Bill Clinton were both on the campaign trail. And the idea was that they both wound up at the same elementary school as a campaign stop. And so the whole premise of Tracy's character Biscuit was that the joke was that he was a biscuit away from 300 pounds. And he was just like a big, just kind of a big husky five-year-old or something. And so both candidates are at the same elementary school. All the kids love Bill Clinton.

The only kid Bob Dole can get is Biscuit. And so the whole thing was this thing of, you know, you're cutting away and you're seeing Clinton basically win over all these kids. And then every time Dole is trying to do something, it's with Biscuit who's just reluctant and also heavier than Bob Dole. Tracy couldn't get anything on that season. And it was very, very rare. He might get an update once in a while, but if it was happening now,

most people would conclude he would not be coming back, but it took him a couple of years to really find his voice on that show and for the people to want to write with him. How do you get your sketches then to Colin Quinn? That was after your internship that he read some of your sketches and set up a meeting him and Mike Shoemaker for you to sit down with Tina Fey and some of the writers. What was the timeline like? So the timeline was, and again, some of this was because I was there all the time, I got close with the cast because they saw me.

They saw me at 11 at night, at 12, you know, and Colin and Norm would have these hallway soccer games. And Colin would bring me into those. But Colin is one of the sweetest people I know. And even at that time, I feel like Colin modeled something to me that I thought, that has always stayed with me, which was there were people who were PAs on the show who were doing stand-up comedy. And Colin would get there, like he would say, oh, yeah, if you want me to listen to something, I'm happy to listen to something. And I remember a PA giving him a tape of a set he did, and Colin had like a legal pad filled with notes and just thoughts for this PA. Can I guess it? Was that Jason Nash? I don't know. That's a good question because I know Jason from Los Angeles.

He was there at the time. Oh, shit. I don't know that I like, I've not. talk to Jason Nash in forever but that's he just there the year before you maybe he wasn't there that year but he was he was he was yeah he was there but I was wondering because Jason would be was performing back then and I just wasn't sure if that was him but that was a long time ago it might have been Jason Nash it might have been either Jason or there was a I know there was one of the one of the people who worked the front desk who eventually became a writer um it could have been him as well and his name is escaped

right now. It's not Matt Piedmont, was it? Matt Piedmont, yeah. Okay, it was, yeah. It could have been one of the, it could have been Jason Nash, it could been Matt Piedmont, but I just remember that and the Colin took it the time. Yeah, that's amazing. And as I was writing sketches, Colin was just like, oh, yeah, let me, like, I'm happy to read them because he'd see me and I would just be there at 11 at night, just on the computer because again my grandmother didn't have cable she definitely didn't have a have a computer and so I was I was there and I was just writing sketches and printing them out and I think he saw me and asked me

what I was doing and I said oh I've been writing sketches and he asked to read them and thought like he was like oh I think these are really good and before I left he had given me notes on stuff and he'd read my sketches, and he said, you should slide them under Shoemaker's door. And so I slid them under shoemaker's door before I'd even left the internship. Because again, like I said, I was not looking to go back to college. I, in my head, thought, all right, if I can get in the door, maybe I can stay here. And so I slipped them under Shoemaker's door. And that was all thanks to Collins' encouragement and support. Did Karen Nathanson find out about that?

Because sometimes the internship coordinators aren't happy about stuff like that, or did that you never know about that? I don't know. That's a good question. So you get them in, and then you actually do sit down with Tina and Shoemaker. Who else was in the room? Essentially, you didn't have representation at the time, but you're sitting there, and it's a meeting to possibly be a writer,

which they do sometimes. not everyone's hired but what was that like it was wild because at the time i was working as a pa on uh Craig Kilbourne's late show um and so I I was working as a PA on that late show two things had happened at that time I think after I'd left SNL they had told me I could submit jokes. And so I became a faxer. And I was faxing jokes in, but I wasn't super consistent with it. And I didn't get anything on. I think there was one joke I saw on update that I was like, I think that's my joke. And then they were like, I think Frank Sebastian wrote the same joke. So I do want to just point real quickly, because I think this is important to the story. They offered

you a gig as the receptionist and you did say no. You turned it down correct. That's correct. Yes. After I graduated college, they offered me a job as a receptionist. And to me at that time, I figured, I don't think there's anybody who goes from receptionist to cast member. So I have to earn my way and earn my bones so that you see me not as a receptionist, but that you see me as a performer and a writer. And so that was, and I think as a consolation as well, they did say, oh, by the way, if you want to fax jokes in, you can fax jokes in.

Were they shock that you said no? I mean, I just think most people, I mean, it's so hard to get a job there that would have been all over. I give you so much credit that you were smart enough to realize to go to L.A. and find your voice as to stand up and perform and everything happened, as it should. But were they just very surprised? I don't know. That's a good question.

I feel like maybe, but also I appreciate you. saying it was smart. I think there was probably some of it that was just naive on my part, just kind of being like, all right, no, I got to do it this way. It worked out. So you're at Craig Kilbourne, the late late show on CBS, which is at 1230. So are you paying your own way to New York for this meeting to sit down with Tina and Shoemaker and everyone? Or did they fly you out? They flew me out. And I should say the other weird thing about it was I'm at the late late show. I was working as the second PA. There was a first PA and then there was a second

PA. I was faxing jokes to S&L. They would let people fax jokes in to Kilbourne, but they wouldn't let me. I was told I could not submit jokes to Kilbourne, even though I was faxing jokes to S&L. And I had been told by my supervisor, like, look, you. you can't fax jokes in, the first PA can, but you're going to be the second PA. If the first PA leaves, you're just going to stay the second PA. You're not going to bump up. And it was very, it was one of those weird things where I was like, I should probably quit this job because this seems like bullshit.

But at some point, I had gone on a run where I had to go pick up like lunch or something like that. And when I got back, the first PA, who very nice guy, he had a message for me. and it was from S&L. They had called me at the late late show. And so then I returned the call, and it was, hey, we want to fly you out and interview. Initially, it was Shoemaker basically being like,

can you resend those sketches and maybe write one or two more? And then they flew me out. And so they paid to fly me out. They put me up in a hotel. But it was this very weird thing to be at CBS has to be working in late night as a PA and then both not be seen at the late late show as good enough to submit jokes as a writer and then get a call that is hey we think you're good enough and we we would like to fly you out and yeah and after that it was it was it was

I didn't get the job at the time but it was a thing of like Yeah, I should probably quit the late late show because this doesn't seem like it's a, it's, it's going to, it's going to lead to anything. Were you just really nervous? Because I know that you, you mentioned that your stepdad gave you some, probably looking back, maybe not the best advice. You wore a blazer and you dressed up a little bit. You had a briefcase. Will Ferrell brought a briefcase, but he had fake money in it and it was going to be a joke when he got hired. Yours was not a joke at all.

You thought that this is, this is the advice you got. Do you think that just being maybe a little bit too formal? Do you think that that had anything to do with it? Were you loose at all during the meeting? Or how did you, how would you, looking back, how would you describe it? I would describe it as if a 22, 23-year-old were trying to go to a bank to get a bank loan to buy a mansion he didn't have money for. I was very nervous

I just answered everything in yes or no questions and I remember to Shoemaker's credit he was really trying to help me out and I think he was really rooting for me and I don't even know if at that time I wonder if at that time there had been

a black writer on the show because I know that room was Warren Hutchardson might have been the only one. I think Warren Hutcherson, to my knowledge, might be one out of two at the most. That's all I can think of. Yeah. And so I'm in this room. It's Tina.

It's Shoemaker. It's a bunch of other writers. And I remember Shoemaker was trying to get me to loosen up. And I wish, like 2020 hindsight, I wish somebody would have just pulled me aside and said, hey, this isn't like a bank loan interview. This is, they just want to get to know you. So just, you know, just relax and be yourself. His, at some point, he asked me to tell a story about Norm and I. Yes, let's get to that, but yes, this is a legendary story. And so he asked me to tell this story, which the, the story, basically, Norman, Colin Quinn would have these late night soccer matches in, by the elevator

Banks in 30 Rock on the 17th floor and they would each get another person to be their teammate and they would play with like a little tiny ball and so because I was around a lot Colin would often ask me to play and then Norm would get whatever writer he could to play with him and so he always had a revolving door of people and Colin would usually often get me. So one night we're playing and Norm and I are both going for the ball at the same time, I wind up clipping Norm in the shin because neither of us are soccer players. And this is a stupid game to be playing at, you know, one in the morning. So I clip him in the shin. He, you know, the time he was trying to quit smoking, he's also a gambling addict.

So I think he takes these things very, very seriously. He grabs me and tries to throw me. I am 19. I do not see a difference between him or I. And if you put hands on me at 19, it was just like, yeah, I don't see you as a superior. I just see you as someone trying to fight me. So I shoved him off of me. He then shoves me back.

We get into a shoving match. We're screaming at each other. I get pulled. Colin pulls me down the hallway. The update writers come out. They sort of calm norm down. I calm down. Colin says, okay, you know, why don't we go back and squash it?

I'm like, yeah, cool. Get back out there. Tension's still running high. we're sort of standing there and going in with the intention to squash it and there's just a group of update writers behind Norm and one of them just kind of like decides to just throw a match into gasoline and just stoke the fire again and I don't remember what was said but whatever it was, it sets us both off again. And we both come back to one another. And I think in that moment, I can't speak for Norm. I can speak for myself. And in that moment, I realized I'm an intern. I can't

throw the first punch. If he punches me, then this we can go. But I know that if I throw the first punch, I'm not coming back tomorrow. I don't know how to communicate to him. Oh, if you throw the first punch, I'm not going to sue you. And so, which is I'm guessing what's going through his mind is like, oh, no, I can't throw the first punch because this 19 year old would have a lawsuit on his hands and, you know, he would own Broadway video. So we both are in this standoff of like both of us thinking who's going to throw the first punch.

We go back to shoving again. We ultimately get pulled apart a second time. It gets squashed. and it settles down in a way where we're able to kind of like have cooler heads on it and I go home I come back the next day

the next day people are like asking me about what happened and are basically like coming up to me and being like hey that's fucked up what happened to you, Norm's an asshole like that's why we don't play basketball with them anymore like we're really sorry and so all these people are kind of pulling me to the side when norm

walks by they're like norm what's up buddy and you know very much like and then like no he's an asshole but uh you know and so so yeah so that happened and uh and so that was a uh a big part of my internship experience was yeah, getting into a weird late night late night soccer fight. So Shoemaker had you tell that story that made him when Tina was there.

So Shoemaker asked me to tell the story and I then in the moment I'm thinking, why the fuck are you asking me to tell this story? Like you're like I assume everybody here is friends with him and loves him. He's still

you know at the time I he's still there and so it's just like I don't know why you want me to tell this story like and so I tell the story but I tell it in the most sober way giving deference to you know to norm and just the situation and kind of like yeah just telling it in the most dry way I can and it's that thing of Shoemaker being like, hey, you all need to hear this. And then building it up. Yeah. Three things I want to mention.

One, Ian Maxstone Graham, Norm had previously punched. That was back in December of, or November, December of 93. That was over, I think, like, Norm was smoking up on 17. It was like a water pistol or something. The second thing is the fourth person that was playing in that soccer game in the hallway was Stephen Colbert, who was there for four episodes as a guest writer. He wanted to stay and stay a writer. The show felt the exact opposite, and they did not keep him.

And the third thing I wanted to say is I saw you on Fallon. And I had heard this story, and I knew the story, but it wasn't a public thing. And Fallon is talking about you being an intern on SNL, and he said, yeah, yeah, I'll say hi to Norm for you. Or he said something about Norm to you that was an inside joke, just acknowledging Norm. And he kind of like giggled a little bit, but nobody in the audience had any idea what they were talking about. But I got such a kick out with that just as a viewer being like, I know what is talking about with that. So it became a big story around the people around entertainment and stuff. But, yeah, Tim Meadows was also a writer for after he was hired, they hit for a year or two.

So I didn't want to forget that. Now, is it true? In 2008, there was a report that you were one of four people being considered to be play President Obama on Saturday Night Live. Was that an accurate report? I don't know I feel like they they would know better than I I know that I know that my reps had sent my stuff to them and I was told I was in the mix and I think I at the time CNN had like interviewed me because I'd done an Obama thing online and it had it had gotten some attention, but I never got to the point where they flew me out to audition. So I don't know if I was like in the very, very, like if I was in a mix of like, okay, we're looking at a few different people, who do we want to fly out?

And I just didn't make that cut. Yeah, the report was one of four and they kept Fred Armisen. I wanted to ask you about this sequence. Now, I saw the Kanye West pilot for HBO, which I have to say, I could not believe, and this was supposed to be comedy, how funny it was for a pilot. Now, this was before the Daily Show, correct? Because you got the Daily Show in 2008, and the Kanye pilot was 2007, correct? That is correct, yeah. Wow. Okay, so can you talk about working on that pilot? Because when I saw it, as somebody that does comedy, it's hard. A lot of times it's hard. I want to enjoy comedy and laugh, but it's hard. sometimes, but I have to say, and I want your opinion, for a pilot episode for comedy, and I believe Larry Charles was involved, there was some really funny stuff. Is that what you remember from it? Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of fun to make. And yeah, Larry, Larry was the director. And I think what was really fun and also, I think, really helped was that at that moment

in time, Kanye knew the stuff he knew and he knew what he didn't. And he seemed at that moment humble enough to recognize, okay, the things I don't know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to try to carry this because I know I can't. And so often while we were shooting the pilot, the cast was rounded out with a lot of people like Kim Whitley and J.B. Smooth. And J.B. and I very quickly created a rapport with one another. I played Kanye's cousin, who was just like a freeloader, and J.B. played Kanye's manager. And that dynamic of freeloader and protective manager, we then just found this way to go at one another and to constantly just poke at each other.

And at some point, it became a thing that Larry really enjoyed and Kanye enjoyed watching, and everybody seemed to dig it. And so there would be moments while we were filming where, because we were shooting in that curb style where there wasn't, you know, a line-by-line script, but a structure, we would get to a scene, and it was, okay, this thing needs to happen in this moment. And as they were talking it through, there would just be moments where Kanye would say,

you should just let J.B. and Wyatt do it. Like, let them get that information out the way that they're doing it. And so we got way more screen time than HBO ever, ever wanted. I think that's probably, that's probably the encapsulation of my career at HBO is more screen time than they ever wanted. That hotel room scene, I remember, weren't you at a hotel? Yes, yeah. And some of it was based on real life on some of, gosh, it's amazing. So then, yeah, I find that remarkable.

You did that, and then you get hired at the Daily Show. And, you know, you were doing things in L.A. at Second City, the groundlands, you're on a team at Improv Olympic. And you have a manager. at the time. And you're doing stand-up and they would do auditions. And they asked you to audition. You auditioned a few times before they flew you to New York, correct? That's right. Yeah. They would do auditions pretty much every year. And so there was an executive Comedy Central, a really wonderful guy named Bart Coleman. And Bart would go to every stand-up show around L.A. and I would see Bart, I'd be at the improv, I'd see him at the improv, I'd be at Comedy Death Ray, he would be at Comedy Death Ray, and he was just always around, and he would often come to me and say, I think you would be great for the Daily Show, because of what you're talking about on stage, it feels like it would be a good fit. And every year, there would be these open auditions, and I'd auditioned maybe three or

four times and it would be a thing where and it's and i think it's credit to maybe the west coast comedy central i think they saw just how just how white the daily show was and it wasn't it wasn't in the it wasn't in the most artful way but every year there would be these auditions and the auditions like from the hours of like 10 and 11 it would just be like Asian comedians going in to audition Asian male comedians going into audition and then from like 11 from that's 10 to 11 from 11 to 12 it would be like black and then 12 to 1 it would be Latin X and so you just had like this weird kind of thing and you would just be given scripts that had already appeared on the show and they were usually Colbert scripts.

And so you'd get out there and you'd sit in the waiting room and you would just hear everyone doing their best version of Stephen. And because it wasn't like, oh, this is for you. And they're not asking you to write anything. They're just asking you like, can you do a Stephen impression? And so those would all be put on tape. And what I would learn after I got the show, one of the executive producers, said it in a way that seemed that was boastful but is actually more shameful in retrospect he was like

oh yeah they'd send those tapes and we wouldn't look at them we just throw them away welcome to reality oh my goodness so finally bart i'm guessing who's at veeps right now he pushes you to at least be seen so you fly to new york no so so what happens is at some point i think the show does decides they want to make an active attempt to start looking, and they changed the submission policy. So for Comedy Central, I was just going in and reading a script. This time around, they said they wanted you to write something. And so they were going to still have you do at this point. It was an Oliver script, but then also they wanted you to write your own desk piece with John. You wrote the lost piece. You were a huge fan.

of Lost at the time, which I was too. And you wrote a really funny piece about the elections and lost. Yeah. And honestly, I have to say, I'd never seen Lost. I just, smart man again. Yeah, I'd never seen it. I just like, I had thought, I knew about the polar bear. And so that was the joke I knew I wanted to get to. And then I, my friend Laura Swisher, who's a very funny comedian and who was putting me up in her house because I'd been evicted recently or shortly before that. I was staying with her

and I, between her and another friend of hers, I was just getting all the lost information. I could. They were my research department of lost information because they watched the show. So the Daily Show has no idea. So you do this piece and John is there.

So I do it. So first I audition in L.A. that that tape gets to New York, they watch that one, they like that one, then they fly me out. I do the audition with John, which I didn't realize that was going to happen until I get into the studio. And right before, I had gone and had lunch with a friend, and it might have been a good thing, might have been a bad thing, but my friend had ordered a drink at lunch, and so I was like, oh, I'll get a drink.

And then halfway through, it was like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm about to go audition for a job. And if I don't get this job, the other job that was waiting for me was I had, right before I flew out, I had interviewed for a job as a writer on the chocolate news with David Allen Greer. And they had offered me a job if I didn't get on the plane. And that is tempting, because you were a doorman at the time, right, in L.A. at the time? I was working, I was working the door at, I was working the door at a bowling alley called Lucky Strike.

My goodness. How close were you to not get in on that plane? Because, I mean, those shows pay really well to write. I, I wasn't going to take the chocolate news. I, because the other thing was I had already, there's a little bit of a time gap there where. I didn't get, I didn't get S&L, maybe a year or two later, I got hired on King of the Hill as a writer. And so I spent season seven to ten as a writer on King of the Hill. I left King of the Hill because I realized if I stayed in that writing track, the opportunities to perform at that time were dwindling. And my agent was not sending me out for stuff. And so I realized, okay, I just have to shock the system and just kind of like bet on myself. And so in betting on myself, I lost a lot of money betting on myself and basically ran through all the savings I had at King of the Hill or from King of the Hill, went through my credit cards at that point was, yeah, life.

had, life had humbled me where I'm working the door at a bowling alley. And, uh, and I then, yeah, flew out there to, and so it was definitely like, I didn't want to take the chocolate news. I, I, I didn't feel close. Obviously, I needed a gig and I think my car had just been repoed. Like I said, I've been evicted a little bit before. I'm working the door. I got a voice. over gig for a Nickelodeon cartoon called Fanboy and Chumchum, which was like, okay, here's a little bit of cash that's coming in. But yeah, it was, I think I saw it as if I don't get the daily show, chances are I'll be able to get this job, but I really want to get the daily show.

I've talked to some people that said, you know, I could tell that this was the audition of my life. It's just, I could tell, could, like, before John, out of the words, when can you start, you're hired, could you feel that when you were doing that audition that you were, you were killing without humility? Could you tell this is actually going very well? It wasn't the audition. It honestly, it honestly was walking into the studio. When I walked into the studio, there was just a sense of like peace that came over me where I felt like, oh I could work here and I just remember thinking and it's one of those things where I remember oftentimes my early days of doing stand-up the first time I ever got on a stage at a venue I'd never been before I felt this anxiety because I'd never performed on this stage before that was good nights comedy club and Raleigh correct good nights but any any any club

Any club. I see what you're saying. Okay. Like any show I did, if it was like, oh, this is the first time you're going to perform at Mbar, that first time I would have knots in my stomach because I didn't know that space. And so, and then the second time, it was like, oh, it's fine. It's, it's, I got like, you know, crack the seal. It's totally fine. And I think there was still a little bit of that residual kind of anxiety that I operated with whatever stage I went to. When I walked onto the stage of the Daily Show, I didn't feel any anxiety. It just felt comfortable in a way where it just seemed like, yeah, I belong here. And then once I was in the audition, I wasn't really even thinking about how it was going.

And there was a moment where I remember I felt loose enough to, improvise something and I think I like it was just at the time TiVo was still a thing and you know the TiVo remote would make some little noise like whip whip whip and I remember doing that and John laughing and I did it again and it wasn't on script it was just something where I was I just felt comfortable and free enough to to just fuck around that little bit. And I don't know. If I felt nervous, I don't know that that would have been the case. So you find out you get the gig. At what point, do you have a reaction? Do you have zero reaction at that point? Or do you wait until you're out of the studio and do you jump up and down? Do you

cry? Does it feel not real? What is your reaction? Like in the studio and then when you leave and this is actually going to happen? So in the moment when after my audition John says that was great when can you start I thought he was fucking with me I thought he just didn't know how to make small talk and said a thing

because like nobody said you're hired they just said you know just like oh great when can you start and just felt like I remember in the moment thinking that like don't like that's fucking weird like don't talk like that if you're not offering me a job and then

afterwards they took me on a tour of the building. And the whole time, I'm like, why are you doing this? No one's offered me a job. Like, this just feels like you're, if I don't get this, you've basically just shown off all of your toys. And I, and then in walking past hallways, I'm realizing that everyone had been watching the audition on closed circuit.

And so I'm walking past writers rooms. And in their offices, they're like, hey, we really enjoyed it, good stuff. And I'm like, what the fuck is going? Like, this is all just, it just feels really exposed. So at some point, I'm like, I got to get the fuck out of here. My friend Laura Craft was writing on the Colbert rapport at the time. I was over there with her.

I had a day job. I remember the first one you came over there and you were on camera when they. Oh, right, yeah. Did you remember that? Yeah, I was 10 feet from you. I remember. Really? Oh, shit.

I didn't realize. Oh. but yeah so laura was there writing on the show i hadn't seen laura since she left l.A. to start working there so i because i'd come out i went to go say hi and we're standing on those kind of steps the audience queue is already lined up and so we're on the steps she just kind of came out to or no she came out she brought me in she took me on a tour and so we saw we saw those the offices there and then as I get a call that my car is ready to take me back to the airport but the car is at the daily show so we're now on the landing of the entrance to go into the studio there and I get a phone call from my manager who was also her manager this guy Dave Rath which I credit and shout out to Dave for really, you know, he was the one who really pushed me to do

it. But so Dave calls and Laura's like, answer it. And Laura was there to witness it as Dave says, they've offered you the job. And so I'm a little bit in shock. Laura, and you know Laura, she has an excited Laura craft is just like, you're going to get a lot of volume and just excitement. She's a cheerleader. She was supportive. That's why so many people love her, yeah.

And so she's just like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. Oh, congratulations, congratulations. And she's just cheering. And so she gives me a big hug. I get a phone with wrath. She's loud enough that the cue,

the line for the Colbert audience heard it so as i'm now coming down the stairs they're all like congratulations for what and they're all saying congratulations but also asking what are what am i being congratulated for and i don't and i'm like oh thank you thank you so much and i like in my head i'm just like you'll see and then i just kind of run away go and get into a car to go back to uh to go back to los angeles and i think the other part of it dave had said they want to hire you and they want you to start in a week so and to write did they told you right away that they wanted you to write as well they wanted me as both a writer and a correspondent yes yeah wow so

you're in the car are there tears or is it just this it doesn't feel real or what what does it feel like. I remember feeling really excited. I remember feeling like, like it didn't feel like tears. It just kind of felt like, okay, like this is this thing that when I was an intern at S&L, the thing I always wanted to do was I wanted to post weekend update. That to me felt like the thing. The Daily Show didn't exist at the time. And this felt like a full circle moment of, oh, this is like weekend update, but even more. And so I remember feeling really grateful and just excited and like this full circle moment had happened. but it didn't really sink in until I got back to Los Angeles.

You've had such an interesting career, but the thing that I don't think would happen now, thankfully, is when you were at the Daily Show, again, you know, it's very white, but I mean, you grow up in Dallas, you're at an all-boys school during Black History Month, and this is true, every year in an assembly, you would have to give a speech. Yes, yeah.

It's unbelievable that that would happen. And then again, at Estanelle, you're an intern, and it's very white, and then you're at the Daily Show, and it's very white. When did you think that the voice of the Daily Show, and when did you feel that there was some progress? I mean, obviously, they're bringing you into the fold. Before that, there was Larry Wilmore, but he was a contributor, and I think William Stevenson was a contributor. You were the first full-time correspondent, I think, writer that was black. but how long do you think you felt that it took the show to maybe reflect more than just of one voice, if any, maybe?

I don't think it happened while I was there. You know, I think because of my experience of the show, I often hear from people who worked on the show after me and want to talk about their experience. And I have heard from people that they, you know, I've heard from people within the building of challenges that they've, they've felt even recently and feeling underrepresented or unrepresented in certain ways. And so I think it's something that the show is still, still working through. I don't know if they're going to get it right. I, you know, you hope they do. And obviously for some people, some people feel more comfortable in those spaces than other folks do. But I don't know. During my time, it didn't, my presence there was not the panacea for the lack of diversity problems that the show had prior to my being there. When you did, when you went on with Mark Merrim, when you went on WTF, you were very open. As a lot of people do when they,

go on with Howard Stern when they go on, Marin, and they forget that people are listening. Sometimes they are cognizant, but sometimes just people, I don't know if you knew that it would get as much media attention as it did when you were very just honest with what happened with John. And for anybody that wants to read it, you can Google this. But at this point, when you just told them about your experience getting into an argument with John Stewart after you, you know, you told him that you thought that something he was doing wasn't um it was was offensive john after he listened to that interview did he reach out to you to apologize or to address it at this point or you didn't hear from him until

you went back to the final daily show because you went you were on the final daily show did he come up to you during that point at all and be like why it's good to see you i'm sorry he's talked about it since that he was in the wrong he admits it but did he ever say that to you so when it came time for the final show one of the producers came to a show that I did at the bell house and begged me to do the show and begged me and cried to like real tears to to beg me to do the show and so I reluctantly did it I didn't want to do it did John what you was with did this person do you think that John sent the person that they that you they wanted you there that John wanted you there, but he was afraid maybe they're nervous to ask. When they came to me, they said

John really wants you there. They seemed to be speaking for John, but not, it wasn't him saying anything. When we ultimately saw one another at the show, he came up and he was like, oh, I'm so glad you're here. It's great to see you. He gave me a hug. And that was the extent of the conversation, we would talk about it years later, we got lunch because after the first season of problem areas, my now experience running a show, I could see some of the, I could see some of the pressures of being a showrunner, being the person in charge of a show. And I reached out to him. And not in any way of like, this doesn't excuse any of what you said or did, but I see, I see the pressure that you were under. And I just remember him talking about,

even in our disagreement, sort of talking about the pressure he felt. And I was like, I see a little bit of it. That prompted us to get a lunch. in that lunch, we discussed it the tiniest bit, but it was really more about him not understanding why I went on Marin's show to talk about it. And it was really more about his issues with Marin. And he felt Marin was manipulating me because he and Marin have beef. Which is public as well. I mean, that's true. Which is public, but is also bullshit because the one thing I can say is Marin gave me opportunities before John ever did. Marin used to put me on Air America. Marin was always a nice person to me. And so Marin was always a friend. And Marin was someone I saw

as a mentor in. And so I was never part of that beef. And in fact, when Marin at one point, point after I got on the show, Marin reached out to me to ask me if I could broker a conversation with him and John because he wanted to get John on the podcast so that they could talk about the beef. And so I then, I was the conigliary for Marin and went to John and put them in conversation. and the thing that like I as sort of the forest gump of this thing so Marin and John talk this is years ago when I'm still on the show Marin and John talk I hear both of their sides of it I may be the one person who heard the aftermath from both of them

and Marin says oh yeah we talked and we had a phone conversation and he said he wouldn't want to do the podcast but if I was ever in New York we could grab coffee and talk about it but he doesn't want to grab coffee with me then I hear John's side of it and John was like I'm not going to do his podcast because I don't want to do his podcast and then get attention like he just wants me

to do the podcast so that it gets numbers for his podcast I don't want to do that but I told him I'd get coffee with him and we could talk through the shit but he didn't want to get coffee with me and they said the exact same thing and this weird thing where I reel like to me it was like oh shit

you two are the same like you are cut from the same cloth and this is one of those things where I see and I know from both of them how their careers have overlapped and there's a part of it where it's like oh shit if mark had gotten the daily show John would be a guy with a podcast that turned into this thing like they are so simple like it was just like you're too similar you would have you would have done the reason you dislike like the reason the beef exists and the beef I feel like is you know like like I feel like it exists because you're so similar and because even to as Marin has said like Marin saw John as a threat and the minute and I think they both see each other as a threat and and it's because they're so similar isn't that amazing from 30

probably 40 years ago and it just it still feels as real as yesterday to them i'm guessing i'm perhaps not i mean i think i i can't you know i think maron has marin at least has said publicly he would like to reconcile i don't think he carries a grudge in that way okay it's more john maybe i it feels like because even like i said at that lunch the the thing that he kept coming back to was like why'd you go on Maren's show? And he never seemed to hear or understand that, like, I was never part of this beef. Like, this is... Is Seth McBarlane said, I would not want to get into a debate with John Stewart and argue things?

He's very, very good and convincing John. At one point, I think he upset Seth McFarland said something during the writer's strike and John called him up and stuff. but um yeah but i'm glad that you were able to give your side and stick to your guns with with what you saw and what happened and you do you feel any closure that you had a lunch with him at least somewhat maybe no i'm so sorry to hear no no it's it is it's it's a weird thing because it's like i i mean even you would at you sort of uh it seemed like you were gonna ask earlier talking about the podcast and going on marron's show yes if i if i was aware of

of what I was, you know, like, if I was aware of being as open as I was, and I was fully aware and I was protecting John because it was so much worse than what I, like, and to this day, like, I've never, like, I'm like, I talk about it to a point, but like, I still have respect that, like, and I've still shown him a respect where it's like, oh, no, it's, it can get worse. Do you think the oral history when people are giving different takes on it? Do you think that that's an accurate assessment of what happened, the oral history that Chris Smith did? I don't know if you read it. You might not have read the oral history. I read it because I talked to Chris on background because Chris kept coming to me asking me if I would be in the book and I pointed him to

other people, but I was like, I'm not, I don't want to talk to you about this. But I'll talk on background, but I don't want to be in this book because it was John's book. Like the book deal, it wasn't Chris's book deal. It was a book deal that John got. And so John got paid and was the editor, like ostensibly, John was the editor of that book. Like he- Was that disclosed? I didn't know that. I didn't know if that was, that was a, I'm guessing it was disclosed and I didn't know that. I had no idea. It's like Michael Jordan with his documentary a little bit. It was very much that. It was very much, it was very much that. He was, he oversaw everything. So Chris wrote the book and interviewed all these people but whatever john wanted in or out it was only going to go as far as john was going to let

it go and i had no idea yeah and so that was a thing where you know like he that was his book and so i knew that because i also knew that like he had taken some of the advance and offered it to people at the show of like oh hey i got this book deal so i'm going to throw a little cat to everybody at the show, which I think some people saw as like, are you paying us off to say nice things? I don't know if everybody felt that way, but I know that payments were made from the advance of like, hey, I didn't know that. I've never heard of anything like that.

So, 1981, you're born in Manhattan, and in 81, you moved to Dallas. How fish out of water was that to move from New York to Dallas? And that's where you meet Brian Bond, correct? who a lot of people know is what Brian Kvon. I met him at NYU, so I knew him as Brian Vaughn too, but the public. Oh, shit. I didn't know that you knew Brian at college. You know what?

I don't know if he would say, oh, Mark Malkoff. Like, we would see each other at Third Avenue North. We lived, he was with the Tish film people. I was not in film that I would see him around and we'd say hi. And this was also in comic books were not considered cool at all. Remember when we were in college, we're at the same age. And I just remember people telling me and he would talk about, you know, his comic books and all these things and his interest in his writing, and he blew up.

I mean, it's unbelievable. But you met him there, and he was a big influence on you. And you moved from, yeah, in 1981. What was that like? And what was it like being friends with him? So I moved to Dallas. I don't even, yeah, was it 80 or 81? I don't remember exactly when we moved down there.

But, you know, at that time I was so little. So it was, I think in that way, it was just like a new place. but felt weird because my grandmother and lived in New York. My father was in New York until he was killed. I'm sorry. Oh, no, no. So there was this element of getting to know a new place. And then by second grade, I, you know, by second grade, I was pretty, I think I was

settled in as I feel like kids are, you know, pretty good that. way of just kind of getting settled and used to their surroundings as long as they've got toys there. And so second grade was when Brian moved from Cleveland and his mother saw me at an his mother saw me at an assembly and invited me over to play. And then we became friends. And in the summertime, whatever they were doing, I was doing when they were learning to swim, I was learning to swim. I became the fourth Vaughn child. I would, in the summers, my mother would drop me off there. I would eat breakfast at their house. I would eat lunch with them. And I would beg to stay for dinner. And everything that we were doing, it was, yeah, swim lessons, their mom would take us to

on little field trips where we would go to like, I remember once we went to a theater and got to go backstage of a theater and just see how theater gets made. And we got signed up for community college classes where we learned stop motion animation. And yeah, so it was just like a wonderful, a wonderful experience. And it was the All Boys Catholic School in Dallas, correct? The Jesuit College, was it Preparatory School? So that was high school. In second grade, We were at, we were at a St. Paul, the Apostle, which I believe was an Episcopal school. Whose idea was this for an all-boys Catholic school? Is that your mom or stepdad?

I don't, I don't know. I think it was one of those things where of the schools in Dallas, the two all-boys Catholic schools were considered two of the better schools. there was if you wanted to put your kids into like a private school the best school was a school called Greenhill and I couldn't get into that. I took the test and I fell asleep in the test and so I didn't get into Greenhill but I for whatever reason I think parents at that time it felt like if you want your kids to do well in the school system put them in these parochial schools schools. So I was going to these Episcopal schools that were co-ed schools up until middle school. And then by high school, it was a Jesuit Catholic school that was an all-boys

school and also an art museum. Wow. What was it like when you were at King of the Hill because obviously it takes place in Texas? I know that you wrote, what was your first one that you wrote? I have it here. I wrote it then was my hair lady, was your first episode. But what that like working with him and your Texas influence did that help at all it did it was it was really it was I really enjoyed the experience some of it and then some of it was also I was the one black person in the room again and yeah and so but my first day I remember they were working on an animatic for an episode called new cowboy on the block and it was an episode where a guy who played special teams for the Dallas Cowboys moves on to Rainey Street where the guys live

and they're all excited that like even though it's special teams one season they're just this is amazing and I was at the animatic and that happened on my street there was a guy who played one season for the Cowboys who played special teams and he moved on to our street and I remember Like, oh, yeah, that was Doug Donnelly. Like, and so I knew I had that experience of that. And I remember meeting Mike and Mike went to UT Dallas, which when I was a kid, we would take our bicycles over to UT Dallas. I had a friend who lived near there.

And we'd ride our bicycles on that campus and we'd go tromping through the sewers because there were these like creek beds that ran into the sewer runoff and we would, you know, as kids being like camouflage and go in the sewers and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was big at the time. And so we were, we kind of recognized that we may have been in the same place at the same time. That while he was at UT, I might have been riding my bicycle around campus. That's very cool. And so everything that I felt like the show was talking about, I was like, yeah, the house that the hills live in looks a lot like the house I grew up in. And so it all felt very natural and normal in that way where it seemed like, oh yeah, these stories, I know these things. I feel I have a sense of, I have a sense of these stories and these characters because I've met people like that.

And anytime I spent, anytime I spent with Mike, I felt like we sometimes would talk about things that were specific to Dallas that was like, I might not have been, I might have been too young to go to Deep Ellum, but I knew Deep Ellum and I knew that experience. as it was told to me, and it was something that was aspirational of, oh, yeah, you want to go there when you're old enough to drink and party, that's where you go. They had you do some voices on the show, correct? Not really. I mean, it was more after I left. It was kind of just doing like sort of background voices here and there. Don't mention who it was, but, you know, Donald Glopper was at 30 Rock and his salary.

was being, was the network, I guess the network didn't have to pay for it, but the same deal. There was somebody at King of the Hill that would just remind you that you're basically, we're not paying a dime to have you here. And they would, they would say this to you, why? I'm not sure why, but yeah, as context, at the time, writers' rooms were so white that the NACP had put pressure on the studios where they were saying, hey, all these writer's rooms, like, this is, there is no diversity here. You have to do better. And they put pressure on the studios to put pressure on shows to do a better job with their hiring

and thinking about diversity. And so with that pressure, what the studios said was, we will pay for a writer. If like, all you got to do is just add one writer of color. it won't go against your show's budget we the studio will pay for it which on its head it's a shameful it's a shameful thing for all of those shows it's a shameful thing for the studio that they had to be pressured to do it it's a shameful thing for all those shows that they never saw that they needed to do it it's a shameful thing for the union that they that diversity never meant that much to them that it was the studios who had to basically force writers of color into the union.

And I'm a proud union member, and I stand by my union. But the way that I got in, the union did a disservice to a lot of people of color by being so white for so long and not seeing that it was a problem. It was, yeah, I mean, it was everywhere. I mean, I was an intern. I worked on day jobs on some of those shows and stuff. And it was, yeah, I remember when everything changed like that slowly, but it seemed like every half hour, and I'm guessing drama, the same way. So one of the showrunners would often, and this was a person who was also a mentor to me. And I had met when I, like, when I got out of college and he showed me how to write scripts for, you know, for television. And I, but he would often say to me that I was free. And he, and he, he would often say to me that I was free. And he, he,

He said it in a way to him. He said it as like, this is a boon for us. And he was very proud of it. I'm sorry. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's, yeah. I mean, I think it's an unfortunate thing.

And I think, you know, one of the big things I feel like I have learned working in television is that there are all these very talented and creative people. Whether they're writers, whether they're performers, directors, but where they don't have talent is in office management, but they are being put in charge of offices without that skill set. You don't go, you know, if you're doing stand-up and all of a sudden you get a sitcom, you have not in any way learned anything about how a television show should run. run and operate. And people will crumble sometimes after under the pressure and some of them are good

people, but they'll crumble. They'll crumble, but also you look at like, even people who work their way up through the ranks as like TV writers, at no point are you being taught how to talk to people, how to actually like be a boss. And yeah, and some of them were terrible about it. I mean, it doesn't happen as much now, thank goodness, because I think just because people are afraid of lawsuits and stuff. People are much nicer in what we probably saw in some of those rooms. Some of the writers' rooms, what would go on that I would hear? Unbelievable now, they would be fired in a heartbeat. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, that's, I mean, even just people working hours, I mean, I remember the writers at King of the Hill would talk about, you know, before I got there, our hours were really

good when I got there, but they would talk about being there until two and three in the morning. And I remember one writer she was talking about in the, you know, at two in the morning, sneaking away because she needed to go get tampons and feeling like, what the fuck am I doing? I have to go get tampons in a toothbrush because these writers won't, the showrunners won't let me leave. And yeah, if someone were to say that at any job today. those showrunners would be would or should be fired that should not that should not stand but like

these were bad you know these were sort of badges that people wore on their sash as though like this was the thing like that that these jobs required trauma and you you carried that trauma and I think that people saw that I think even for the people who said things to me or in all the shows I worked on where I give grace to some of these people is that I think they all went in it with this sort of fraternity mentality of I got hazed. And so if you're feeling hazed right now, that's just part of the, that's just part of the business. And it's not for me to say sorry that like, because it happened to me and nobody ever apologized to me. Like I think about, you know, John would always talk about his experience working for Gary Shandling, and he didn't have a

pleasant experience working there. I don't know that it was instructive in how he went forward. He could speak to that. I can't. But it seemed like, oh, I don't know if Gary ever apologized to you. And it seems like I know how fraternities work. I know how gangs work. I know the idea of jumping somebody in or hazing somebody that's what this feels like if no one apologized for hazing you then you're gonna just haze the next person i never thought of that yet shanlay in the last couple years at that show could not handle the pressure i talked to a writer who was there who who i didn't really understand um shan lane how beloved he was by so many people because i didn't know him and this guy was telling me um i will never watch anything gary shanlain ever again it was a miserable place

working there and I just didn't really understand the pressure he was under, but I know he did go back and apologize to a lot of people. I don't know exactly what happened and stuff, but yeah, I didn't know that John didn't have a good time over there, but that makes sense because it was, he just chaneling, I guess, from talking to people over there, could not handle it. You would hope people would get out if they were that miserable. Yeah, or that there would be the help to do it. But again, And, you know, I think the way that shows are set up and you couldn't do that now. Yeah, you know, and you also know that with this stuff, it's like, there's, there's a ticking clock. The network wants this show on the schedule at a certain amount of time.

There's not, like, you know, these shows don't have HR departments. There's not, like, you know, I remember, I remember somebody telling me it was during Trevor's, time at the at the daily show that they finally got an HR department oh wow okay like it hadn't that didn't exist before then it took that long to get that wow and so and and like at none of the you know at none of the shows I worked for was there in HR department there wasn't there wasn't that sort of thing there wasn't you know I remember with problem areas HBO sent in some person to give us, you know, an HR seminar for the day. And then it was, you know, if you've got, if you've got a problem, here are the people on staff that you should go to. But like,

those aren't actual HR people. And it was if you have a problem, all right, you can go, like, you can go to my management. Like my management are sort of like they are connected to the show but they're outside the show but like you can go talk to kathy at my management and like everyone had kathy's number and there was i'm sure there might have been a person at hbo if you needed a call but like there wasn't a dedicated like thankfully things have changed for the best and they hopefully will keep changing but that's unbelievable to look back at just a couple years ago i have to ask you you're one of the rare people i know that um gave kane west some musical advice sure what was that like what was the context when you were doing the pilot did he ask you if you would listen to some of his music and he asked what you thought is that was that during it or did you keep in touch with him afterwards or when was that and what did you say to him so i kept in touch with him afterwards and we would text every now and again and i i think during during the pilot he was working on the graduation album and so there would be time

where he'd be in the studio and at one point he invited me to the studio and played the song I wonder and I remember hearing it and it was you know just cool to be in a studio and see everybody working and he played that song for me and I remember listening to it and thinking like, I really like this song. This is a good song. And then I thought, because he invited me, I thought, does he want me to offer up something? And I, in the hook, the hook is, you know,

and I wonder, do you know what it means, what it means? Sorry, hopefully you can auto tune that. That's great. But I was like, oh, you know, you went up there. And I kind of thought maybe I was like, oh, I could also see it like going down and like, like, where it's like, and I wonder, wonder if you know what it. And I think I was like, you know, and I'm just fucking, again, naive. And so he just sat there and he was like, uh-huh, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, all right. And then I remember leaving thinking, that was cool.

Like, I went there and he shared some stuff with me. And it seemed like there was a vibe there where, you know, it seemed like he wanted to know what I thought. And then by the time I got to my car, I was thinking, wait a minute, you idiot. He didn't want you to give him notes. He just wanted you to say that was cool. We all have those things happen with famous people sometimes that work in the industry. but it's a funny story.

Yeah, but in my head I was like, yeah, I'm like, you never won a Grammy? What the fuck are you doing? I heard you said, tell the story on stage once, and I thought it was wonderful. You were very self-deprecating but charming. I remember hearing you speak once, and you said that you wouldn't do selfies

with famous people. You've worked with so many iconic people. Is that still true to this day? Because you can see in the background, if you're watching this on video, you can see me in Sandler. That was from when I was 16 in the 30 Rock Lobby, it's Saturday Night Live, but you mentioned you would just try to be really present

when you're with some of these people and just kind of take it in. Is that still the case to this day? Yeah. I kind of feel like, I don't know, I'm more interested in whatever the connection is and maybe it's a little bit of arrogance or being naive, but I feel like, oh, if there's a reason to see this person again, we'll see each other again. And if it's just this moment, then this was a beautiful moment, or I hope it was a beautiful moment. If it was a shitty moment, then we don't need to see each other again. It's so rare for famous people, like your public figures as yourself and for people at our age, it's just like it's inclination almost to take the phone out and just, you know, do the quick

thing. But I really like that. Maybe it gets in the way sometimes of meeting somebody. to be having that connection. I don't know. It's funny because I've definitely been in other situations where people have said, oh, hey, let's all get a photo and I'll get in that photo. But, yeah, I don't know.

I think there's a part of me that there's a part of me that just sees it as whatever this moment was, I enjoyed this moment. And I think some of it Yeah, some of it might also be that, like, I've gotten to have weird little moments that I don't have photos for, but I just have, all right, I just have this weird story. If anyone has a memoir or two in them, it's you.

Oh, my goodness. Have you ever considered doing that, or do you not have any aspiration to do that? I think it would be one of those things where the, it would have to be. inspiration would have to strike. I feel like I've never, it's something I've definitely, like people have approached me about, and it's something that I've given a little bit of thought about.

But at the end of the day, I love making television. I love late night television. And so I think I've always kind of just, that's been my North Star. And, but that's not to say that that would never happen. I think it's remarkable and so much tragedy. I mean, you, Stephen Colbert and Molly, Shannon lost a parent very early and just, you know,

we're able to succeed at such a wild level and not. I mean, I had a day job with Stephen and I knew Molly a little bit from Saturday and just talking to you and some of the most optimistic people that, whereas a lot of people go through things like that and they just can't rise above it. and I get that too. But yeah, it's something that you've gone through so many amazing things in your life just to persevere and... Oh, thank you.

Yeah, things have... Last question. Nisest Saturday Night Live cast member. The nicest. I mean, I got to go with Colin. Colin, Colin, to this day, Colin has been... I like that.

A wonderful, a wonderful person. and I think about Colin both who he was to me at the at at SNL after I left SNL I remember he went on Conan and told a story about me and name dropped me

and I'm in college just like punching my friends in the arm like he's that's me like he remembered me and remembered me so much that when it was time after I left the show and I'm getting emotional thinking about

just how wonderful he has been to me he's the reason that Shoemaker got back in touch with me to submit my sketches it was Colin three years later going to Shoemaker and saying hey what about Wyatt it. And that was Colin. The day I quit the daily show, it was a rainy day and I had just gotten off the train and I was thinking, okay, I think I'm going to quit. And who should I run

into on the street? But Colin fucking Quinn. And he's like, and I hadn't seen him in a little while and he's like, hey, what's going on? How you doing? And I was like, oh, I'm good. And he's like, congrats on the show and stuff. And I was like, oh, I'm thinking about quitting. It's raining. And it's not raining like, you know, like a downpour, but it's, it's not great. He pulls me under the awning of a hooters. And he just talks me through it.

And all of the anxiety I had and wondering if this was the right thing or the wrong thing. and I remember seeing another comedian at the cellar who I respected the shit out of and I remember saying oh I'm thinking about leaving and his response was it's cold out there and I and I got it I totally got where he's coming from and but when I saw Colin he just that same supportiveness he showed me at 19 he showed me again and it meant the world and it gave me me the sort of wind in my sales to feel confident in this decision that was a scary fucking decision. I was going to leave a year before and I'd been convinced to stay even though I lost my writing credit because of some bullshit contract where I basically short version I learned that I had been getting paid the least of all the correspondence my first three years at the show, even though I was also a writer on the show, I was getting paid the least. And the only other writer correspondent on the show was getting paid the most.

And then everyone else was in between. And when I said, hey, that doesn't seem fair. The show said, tough shit. And the consolation was, well, if you're only going to pay me to do one job, I'll do one job. And so I was like, I'll just be a correspondent. And then afterwards, one of the EPs came to me and said, you know, if you would, if you would just opt it to be a writer, you would have put us in more of a bind where maybe we would have had to negotiate. And I was just like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, fuck you that you don't value my, like my contribution that you're telling me after you scammed me that if I'd scammed me that if I'd scammed,

you better maybe I'd get a little more money and so at that point I was like that last year I was already like okay these people don't give a shit about me this I'm out but it still was like it's a paycheck and clock in clock out yeah visibility and it's a paycheck it's hot entertainment's tough but you've done so much yeah no but yeah so it was and it was tough because it's like I had lost I knew what it was like to lose an apartment and lose a car and so it was i you know and so the fact that colin was the person who was there it it meant the world i love hearing that i love hearing that i'm going to email him and just is that okay if i email him just to say that we spoke and how much you talked um how much you meant i don't know if he knows this how much that at this um that i'm guessing

you've mentioned this to him how much that that that has meant to you over the years and stuff but i'm sure i feel like i've tried to tell him i you know he's one of those people that I feel like I don't see him as much as I wish I did. And I feel like I've tried to tell him a few times. I think sometimes those things maybe hit better from another person. Yeah, I'm going to email him after this. Please, please, and send them my best. I will do that. Wyatt Sannack, thank you so much for doing this. I hope, I know you do these sometimes, and I know that they're not fun sometimes and tough, but I hope this went well and you were happy with it because I thought this was amazing. This was a great time. No, thank you so much.

really appreciate it and thank you for just wanting to talk to me about all this stuff because I feel like you know just what you're doing as far as even just spending all this time talking about late night it is a genre of television it's the it's the genre of television that I have always been in love with and it's the one that's always meant the most to me and in this moment where it feels like you know for years now for the last five five years even 10 years, it feels like late night has been just like being stripped away and stripped away and stripped away. And so just taking these moments to really appreciate what this genre is, I'm grateful that you're doing that. I really appreciate that. Someone that you got

to go on Fallon five times Colbert, three times Seth Myers, two times Conan. So you're a late night that The Daily Show. You've done so much in your career and continue to do more. But I'm telling you, write a memoir. I will buy it. I will be at your Barnes & Noble signing. Thank you, Wyatt, for doing this. This was fun. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday. Thank you.