Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Janeane Garofalo

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Janeane Garofalo joins Mark to discuss working with Garry Shandling on The Larry Sanders Show, being on Letterman and guest hosting The Late Show, the challenges being on SNL, and The Ben Stiller Show. Presented by LateNighter.com Follow Mark on Instagram and X Please subscribe, rate, and leave a review. For more episodes go to LateNighter.com/podcasts

Before we begin, please subscribe to Inside Late Night and on Apple Podcasts, rate it, and leave a review. It greatly helps me in getting the word out about the show. Thanks in advance. As Don Pardo, the late Don Pardo, was saying the names, I'm under the bleachers with a lawyer from NBC who's saying, you sign or you don't go on. And I was like, that's fine. You know what I mean? And again, I'm not saying like, I'm a bad. I was just saying, I have still not unpacked my stuff at the Paramount Hotel.

I'm quite happy to go. Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night presented by latenighter.com. Today's guest is comedian and two-time Emmy-nominated actress Janine Garofalo. This was actually recorded a few years ago in front of a live audience in New York City at the pit. Janine Discusses working with Gary Shanling on the Larry Sanders show, being on Letterman and guest hosting The Late Show, the challenges of being a Saturday night live cast member, Boxes, the Ben Stiller show, and so much more. Now, it's time to go inside late night. Hello.

Janine. Hi. Thank you for coming to. I can't think of anything I would not go to a conversation with Janine Garoflo. That shocks me. Oh, I'm going to that. Now, having said that, I'm very chatty. I can't guarantee it's interesting, but I'm an incredible.

chatty introvert. I was watching so many of stand-up clips from when you started out. You were doing stand-up when you were 19 years old. I started when I was 19, just doing open mics and stuff. And that, that's, there's no nobility to it. It's just, I just happened to have been, uh, in college at a time when there was another kind of mini-comedy boomlet that, uh, it was 1985 when I started the, there was this kind of boom that went from like 83 to 93. So there was a lot of clubs ring up open mics stage time to be had. So it was an easier transition than I think younger people have today just starting. Well, around here it's a lot. Anyway, I'm sorry. See what I mean. I'm over-answering question. Who was the first person that you told that you wanted to

go into comedy? Was it a family member? Was it a friend? Who was the first person that you told and were you nervous to tell them? No, no. I don't recall who I told first. It was an interest in comedy in general that I had starting in the early 70s because also, Also, at that time, comedy albums were very, very normal for people to have. My older brother had all George Carlin's albums and Cheech and Chong and my parents had Nichols and May and Bob and Ray and Bob Newhart albums. And I would listen to them a great deal. So I knew I was interested in comedy somehow and then HBO came on the scene in the early 70s

and they would do a lot of stand-up specials. And it just was something that captured my interest. And it's actually, I just don't have any other marketable skills. I don't have I honestly don't I either wanted to be a secretary because my mom was and that was a secretary

and that was back in the old days of shorthy. She actually won awards for her shorthand. We're going way back. She has a trophy or a plaque? She actually was a secretary named Joan who worked at one of the ad agencies Mad Men is based on. And she happened to be at Red Hand.

Not that Joan is based on my mom at all but she just happened to be a secretary for an ad agency in New York during that time. And also, you know, for most of my young life, she was a secretary. So I thought I'm going to be a secretary or I would like to be a comic or a writer. And then Letterman came on when I was in high school. And I thought I would like to write for I don't even know why I thought I could or would, but that was not something that is easy to do. And then I just went to college and then decided to start doing stand-up. But it wasn't like I was nervous to tell anyone or anything like that.

And it's not like anybody would go, oh, that makes sense. It's not like I was the class clown or anyone you would think that'd be like, oh, that seems to make sense. You know, in fact, you'd probably be hard pressed to find people to remember me from class, especially in college. Really, I made no impression whatsoever on anyone. You backstage, what we were hanging at, you brought up SCTV. That was a huge influence of yours.

That was enormous. I actually, yeah, I can't overstate the effect of SCTV, which came on the same year SNL did in 75. and we got it, I grew up in New Jersey, there's an affiliate that would broadcast SCTV from Canada. And I remember loving both stand-at-live and SCTV, but really loving SCTV through the years. And I feel it never quite got its due alongside the behemoth that is SNL. But it has a huge cult following, I would think. Or maybe not even cult, I don't know.

I don't know what I'm saying. When in Boston, at what point, you're just doing stand-up and then you're a bike messenger? Well, that's not that odd. I mean, it's not like I was doing stand-up. I was doing open mics when I could. And then I was David Cross, who I met in college, and I started as a bike messenger, was a very bad one, was demoted to walking.

This is, honestly, this is in downtown Boston before the days of people using emails and personal computers. There was a lot of papers to be carried between buildings. I'm not kidding, and a lot of law firms. And David worked for Palmer and Dodge law firm. I worked at ASAP, which I think means as soon as possible. I don't know. And then, so I was demoted to walking.

And then even that, I was fired from every single day job. Really, I was. And I don't take any pride in saying that. What was the worst one that you had, day job-wise? Okay, here's one that's going to sound like I'm trying to be funny. But I'm not. I mean, clearly I'm not a strong joke writer. But I worked out on what was called a chat line.

at the time. And it was where people literally on their landlines phoned in to chat lines, and it was your job as a moderator to pretend you were one of the callers, but keep people on the line. And it was supposed to be a teen chat line, but it was abundantly clear that it was a lot of perverted older gentlemen who were on the phone who wanted to hear, I guess, what they thought teen girls, and almost always the conversation would turn to, what are you wearing? I don't even know why it would, and then you were expected to keep talking as much as you could within the limits of decorum to keep, because they paid by the minute. So I would say that was the worst and that was just boring and alarming. So you get out of that.

You moved to L.A. No, then I moved to Houston briefly. I didn't know. Because my father had by that point been transferred to Houston. there was a lot of stage time to be had. There wasn't, I mean, there was a great scene in Boston, but a ton of comics. And in Houston, there was a great scene and not a ton of comics. Is that where you met Bill Hicks? I did. He actually, we grew up oddly in the same neighbor. Now, my, I should let me backtrack. My dad worked for an oil company, and starting in 1973, he would work in Houston.

And every once in a while, we would go there. But for the most part, we lived where Exxon's other headquarter was in New Jersey. But in the neighborhood, Nottingham Forest, Bill Hicks lived, which I didn't know until his memorial service, that we actually grew up in the same neighborhood, which is, I find interesting. I do too. I got to see him once, October 27th, 92, and he was dead like a year later. Yeah, that's what killed him. I was a teen. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Thanks, Janine. Good night, everyone. How dare you? How dare you? I was a kid. So you moved to L.A., and how do you meet Ben Stiller? In Canter's Deli. I was at Cantors. I recognized him from his MTV show that he had at the time,

the Ben Stiller show on MTV, which I was a fan of. I had kind of a crush on him. And I was just kind of staring at him. And then luckily for me, he had seen me, I don't mean this in that, luckily for me he'd seen me. What I'm saying, it wasn't as bizarre that I was staring at him. He had seen me do stand up. So he was able to return the stairs. and say, as I went up to him and said, I'm a fan of your show, he was able to say, I saw you do stand up. So that's how that started.

But it was most, I just, I found him attractive. And so I just tried to always, from that second on, I was always around him. Like, I tried to assert myself into his life. Did you bond over your love of SCTV? Because he's obsessed with it. SCTV, I can't overstate how important that was to our relationship, discussing and deconstructing SCTV sketches.

And also Dana Gould, the Planet of the Apes. The two of them would talk about Dr. Zayas and the Planet of the A, just for hours and hours. And they would look for little models of Dr. Zayas and other Planet of the Apes, things like that. And because he can be a difficult guy to negotiate socially. But if you bring up something like that, he'll talk and talk and talk. But he can be, or when he was younger, he was 24, 25 when I met him,

he was very, very shy. unless you brought up, unless you mention some, some comedy thing that he liked. So when he got his show, the Ben Stiller show on Fox, he asks you to be in the ensemble. Did you have to audition for Fox? No, thank God. Because I would, that, I was 27 then. Both that year, Gary Shandling and Ben, who I had become friends with by that time, asked me to be on their shows.

Thank goodness, because if I had to go through the audition process, I didn't start acting until I was 27. and it wasn't like any network was eager to have me. So luckily, Ben and Gary were able to put who they wanted in there or I would have never gotten either job. Did you ever had an acting class up until that point? I had not. And if you look at some of the work, I think it's pretty clear that I... It's not true.

You were nominated for two Emmys for Larry Sanders. All that shows is anyone can be really, demystifies it, because there's no reason in the world. And I'm not being self-deprecate. I'm a pragmatist, if nothing else. but to nominate me for Emmys is absurd. Two of them. Yeah, that just shows like a lack of something in the category.

I have no idea what that was about. I want to talk about Sanders, but before that, I want to talk, I don't think the public knows how hardworking and disciplined Ben Stillers. He's a machine. I think some people do. I mean, obviously you don't have that kind of sustained career success without being a very, very hard worker. not only is he a hard worker that weight but he is in the gym and I can remember at one point

when I was asked to lose weight yet again when I did a movie called reality bites with him some of the producers why I have no idea because also I'm not thank you I'm not playing the ingenue why do it was my character have to it was one of those things so a trainer was given to me that also Ben was using and I remember she said to me he has what it takes to be in a triathlon he has that mind over matter iron of will, that even if he's not a natural athlete, he has that, he will not, not, you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to be on there for eight months, whatever task was set for him. Even though he would work all day, you know, directing, whatever it is, she said, there's certain people that have a thing. Now, I was the opposite. The reason

she brought it up is because I was, she could not get me to do any, anything. And in fact, I gained 12 pounds under her tutelage. I'm not even joking. I gained 12 pounds under her tutelage. I'm getting back to the Ben Stiller show. What was the favorite sketch that you were in, one or two that you were in that stands out? That was fun maybe to film. I know you don't like watching yourself. They were all very fun to film. Gosh, I guess I think Bob Odenkirk always, I was a particular, love his particular sense of humor.

And I think like any of the Odenkirk stuff was always my favorite, just because I personally find him very, very funny. So reality bites, is it true that Ben Stiller tried to fire you? Yes. Apparently, I, again, was not doing what I was told. Because you're friends with him. Yes, I know. And I actually, in his defense, it was the first time he was directing a studio film and he needed people to listen to him. Now, I was playing a 21-year-old, but I was 29 at the time. I'm not Gen X. People make that mistake. I'm actually tail-in baby boom. But everybody else was 21. And Winona was like one of the biggest stars in the world. And Ben needed her to see him as the director. But whenever he would say, let's do some rehearsal exercise. I'd be like, fuck off. I don't want to.

I'm stupid. I don't want to do that. And so he didn't want me acting that way in front of Ethan and, you know what I mean? And Winona, because he quite rightly felt, what if they start doing that? So I didn't know I was fired, but after one thing, he said, let's do some exercises to get the character. And I was like, I don't want to do that. That's corny.

And he said, well, you can go home for the day. And I was like, oh, yeah. I didn't know that he meant you're fine. He said, you can go home for the day. And so I was like, that's odd, but okay. And by the time I got home, my voicemail machine was full of messages from my agent. What did you do? What happened?

Because people never want to say anything to you directly. They will call your people. So there was like 18 messages in a row of increasingly alarmed manager and agents saying, what did you do? And then I realized, oh, I think I was fired. I put it together in that moment. And then Winona Ryder. And then Winona Ryder went to bat for me.

But it wasn't like Ben. Ben would have, I think, pulled me back in because we are friends still to this day. And he did want me to do that part. I think he needed to show. And I agree with him. You can't say no to the joke. No, that's corny. In front of everyone.

In front of everyone. Tell me what your thought process is. It's the night before the first day of shoot. It's midnight. And without telling anybody, you take scissors. And I cut my bags, yeah, I got in trouble. I shouldn't have done it, too. It's so stupid.

The character of Vicky had, what I wanted was like Betty Pagebangs. Oh, not only do I have a calic here, so it was very labor-intensive. I was, I'm an apple body type, as it is, an apple. There's a fullness up top. But also at the time, because I enjoyed a cocktail so much and all that, I was an apple on top of an apple. My head, I was an apple face. There's a lot of meat on my face.

I was a fat head and the last thing you want is Betty Page bangs on that and so I did it myself this is what I'm talking about you know what it is I shoot myself in the foot all the time it's very it's very self-defeating my behavior saying that's corny cutting your own bangs knowing you are not supposed to when you're going in for hair makeup wardrobe tests the very next day it's not the first day of filming it was the first day of they will decide what your hair I knew that and my inner something, I'm cutting it. There's a reason I'm not famous anymore. I mean, there's many reasons.

Some of them in my control, some are not, but a lot of it has to do with my bullet-riddled feet. There's just nothing but bullet holes in my feet, if you take my meaning, not literally. Was the filming fun? Did you have a good time with everyone? Yes, I did. I had a very good time.

But I started off with A, getting fired. I was also fired from Truth About Cats and Dogs, and then brought back only because Uma didn't want to start again. reshooting. What did you do on that to get fired? I was just, I guess, according to them, a shit actor. It was really that simple. It was just that we don't like your dailies.

They also weren't thrilled with the way I looked, which also was like, are you kidding me? This is a retelling of Serenow. I'm supposed to be so hideous as it is that I hide my identity from Ben Chaplin's character, and you're on top of that, not pleased with my cinder block type body and head or whatever they didn't like.

But anyway, so I was fired from that, and then Uma was like, no way, Jose. Not that she liked me that much. And actually, we're friend, she has actually sense over there. She's very nice. She was 24 at the time, and she had a lot of pressure on her. And she didn't appreciate my approach to the profession, which I guess was no approach whatsoever. You know what I mean? Like that, not wanting to rehearse, not really knowing what I was doing.

I didn't even really understand things about a full. about marks or crossing the line or when you shoot a master then you have to redo what you've done and the coverage. I don't know why, but I would just like do something different, which people don't like that. And she didn't like that. And I understand that she also doesn't like to improvise, or at least she didn't with me. She was the one who was nominated for an Oscar from Pulp Fiction. It was her thing. So it's not like she was thrilled to have me back, but she would had to redo three weeks of a film and she was due to start another film. So, yeah, I'm sure I was fired from more films than that. But, and again, I don't take any pride in telling you

this. I'm not saying it like, aren't I something, aren't I badass? Just answering your question. Yeah. I wanted to talk about Larry Sanders. So Gary Shanlane tells you, I want you to play this character, Paula, a booker. And he just... Well, it's based on a real person who worked at Letterman. The show written mostly by Maya Forbes and Paul Sims, who had worked at Letterman. Larry Sanders' show is loosely based on a lot of people who worked at the David Letterman show. My character, Paula, is based on a real person who worked at the show. And I guess she was a real cranky, a real pill, let's say. And so I was just tasked with behaving that way.

Now, I was thrilled to do that. What I didn't understand is, I guess I did it pretty well because I was asked to do it many other times and many other vehicles and then cut to you are now typecast. You do this one thing. You know what I mean? You're the asshole in Romeo and Michelle. You're the asshole. This, this, that. Which actually is really not my nature. Really, to tell you the truth, I felt terrible in Romeo and Michelle saying, fuck off Toby. I really did. I don't like that kind of vulgarity. I truly don't. And I don't speak to people that way. I'm very polite. I'm a doorholder, people. I'm a holder of doors. I am very chatty. I've not ever been like that person.

who I was asked to play, but then I was kept being asked to play it. Plus, in show business, and mainstream show business, they make a decision for you. You look like this. This is what you do. Does that make sense? And that's the nature of, I'm not complaining about it. That's the nature of mainstream entertainment. And it's an elective profession. Nobody makes you do it. So to complain about it is stupid. But when you were doing Sanders, could you tell that the writing, were you aware? The quality holds up. I mean, I watched it a year or two ago, the whole thing. Again, the quality is amazing. Could you tell? I could, only because, you know, having grown up watching television, you can tell the difference between bad television and good television.

Also, once you're in Los Angeles for a while and you are sent scripts to audition for other things and that started happening right away with Larry sent, you know what I mean? Anybody who was involved with the show, it became a critic's darling. So everybody who was in the cast started getting like, read this script to do that, you know, for other things. And you realize, oh my God, there's such a difference between this writing and this writing. Like anybody could tell, I guess, if you have taste, the difference between good writing and bad rank. But also, Gary Shanling is to be credited 100 percent, a wonderful human being. And I'm very, very sorry, he's not here anymore, a great guy, but also a guy who really wanted it to be a certain way. You know what I mean?

He wanted it to seem very real. Now, a lot of younger people watch it now and think that that show's ripping off the office and stuff, that Veritas style. But it was actually very unusual at the time. 1991, 92 to have a show that looked like that. And the cameraman, Peter Smokler, was on rollerblades a lot and he was being pulled around, the office set, shooting that way. And sometimes people were in frame, sometimes they're not. You know, it had a style and a look. And also Gary's way of acting is my favorite way. He wants you to say something different every time. He wants you to do whatever you want to surprise him to make him listen, things like that, which I find to be

very exciting. And he also was a very supportive person. He welcomed all ideas, you know what I mean, I've noticed over the years that the worst, the the bigger the hack, writer, producer, director, the less likely they are to let others be involved. They are real precious about their words. And then the better the writer or whatever seem to be much more open to it being a collaboration, knowing that an idea can come from anywhere. If it's no good, they won't use it. But they also know that if you support your cast and they feel like they're a part of it, it raises all boats, if that makes sense. sense.

Rip Toren seemed so intimidating in real life. Was he? Yes, very, very, very, very nice guy, a very good actor, a very quick, quick tempered gentleman. And he had some issues as well. Yeah, he liked a cocktail as well. He would start a bit earlier in the day than I did. But yeah, he, he, yeah. But a great, a great actor, a great actor.

Incredible on that show. And, you know, just wonderful. I would say Hank Kingsley is one of the greatest TV characters of all time. So, so funny. And so many people now just say, hey now, without really, you know, hey now, it's just something that has become, you know, I was thinking the other day that Richard Lewis doesn't get any credit for, from hell and on steroids. Do you know that he actually coined both those phrases on Letterman in the 80s that have now become part of normal, everyday life, unfortunately still people on the cooking channel say it way too much. I mean, it really is past its rhyme, but on steroids and from hell. Guy Fierre. Why are you saying that from

like whatever? But Richard Lewis coined those and made them part of, not just domestically but internationally. And I feel like nobody ever mentions. Richard Lewis said that first in his stand-up. And it became I don't know how many people you could say that about that they just dropped things into

panel conversation with David Letterman and then it becomes something. Something that is now you don't even know where it comes from probably. Richard Lewis. Richard Lewis, that's right. You were commanding at the time, from the industry, they were offering you to do films a million dollars. And your representation explained to you, you have the small, the average person that is

worth that much money at the time has about two years, a narrow window. And you, you said no to the money. You're the only person I can think of that was being offered million dollar films that was saying no. Well, actually, again, you're giving, let's, let's unpack this. There are a number of actors, money was flying around in the 90s. I'm telling you, money was flying around in the 90s. I'm not the only person.

I only was offered a million dollars a couple of times. And that's a huge. But what I'm saying is, believe me, there was other actors getting that and more. When you say turn it down, there's certain things that it's just, no, I'm not going to be the lesbian gym teacher who just needs to get laid in porkies, too. You know what I mean? Like that, that's just silly. That's just silly.

You know what I mean? And again, when you don't have children and you don't buy stuff, you can say no. You know what I mean? Like if I had kids, you know, things would be very different. But believe me, there's lots of people who were offered that kind of money back then. And also, I don't know. Where are you getting that information? I talked to one of your representatives probably who worked with you probably 10 years ago when you told me.

I'll tell you afterwards. Can I not say publicly? There were things where money was on offer, but not just to me. It was going around at that time. You were one of the only ones that were saying no to the million. That you know of. I'm sure there's plenty of people that's rare. It says it's very rare.

It may not be rare. I have no idea. Do you still consider your time on Saturday night will have to be the lowest point of your career and maybe your life? I heard you say that. The only reason I'm saying that is because I'm saying that. When I say that, I'm talking about lowest point

for a couple of reasons. It personally low point in that I was so deep into drinking, it really got out of control. That's my fault. My drinking was out of control. Now, professionally also at the time, you know, that show's been on for 40 years. It ebbs and flows.

There's ups, there's downs, there's times when it's better than others, times where it's really working out. The particular amount of time I happened to be there, there was some chaos going out. There was changes happening, and the type of comedy that was happening at that particular moment was not my particular taste. They didn't need me to be. The cast was over large, as it is. So it was just, I couldn't break through there because at the time, they weren't really doing stuff that maybe, it wasn't a good fit. but it was my fault mostly for giving up

whereas there's other people like Molly Shannon and other people who sometimes went because she came on board when times were still tough but she's got that that will of her right she doesn't care you know what she's going to keep working I'm a real quitter I'm a real quitter you know I mean like I'm I only have stuck with two things which three stand-up comedy I like to make jewelry

I just enjoy bead stores that's never ebbed and smoking And I have no wish to quit smoking either. The thing I find interesting is a lot of your friends that had been over there, I'm guessing Ben Stiller and Bob Odenkirk told me you don't want to go. I was actually dating Bob Odenkirk by that point. We were boyfriend and girlfriend briefly, and he said, don't go. It's not the right time for you.

I understood immediately what he meant when I got there. Now, I did have some good times there, and it does afford you a lifestyle that's really excited. You get to meet so many people. and the bands and the guests that come on. So that can be very exciting. And also, if you are a person who has a drinking issue, well, that's a perfect show. You know, I mean, like, there is no end of ability to be drunk 90% of the time, which I was.

Now, I'm not proud of that. And a lot of other people were completely clean and they worked very hard. I did not. That's my fault. I gave up early when it became clear that this doesn't seem to be a good fit. It wasn't all, you know, there was, I'm sure there's some good stuff there too, but it was just, it just wasn't the right time for me. Maybe if I'd been there earlier or later, it might have worked out. The Andy Breckman sketch that Andy Breckman wrote that sketch, it was Alec Baldwin host

as the Japanese game show with Chris Farley. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, that was funny. That was, Alec Baldwin is unbelievably funny. He was meant to do that show. And he was, he was, again, I was thrilled to meet him there, but there's also so many bands that you're like, I can't believe. And also you get to float from Florida. Like Conan was shooting there and then there's other shows and you just get to wander around that building, Rockefeller Center, and go watch other bands that are on Conan and stuff like that. It just was really very good. And I actually accept a lot of the blame for what went wrong there. I was immature and drank too much. Saturday Night Live does, pays way less than regular

shows. So you were essentially taking a pay cut to go to SNL, correct? Right, but it was still It's still great money. And it's still more than 90% of the world's population that lives on less than $2 a day. That's a fact. So any money is better than that. It was very good money for a weekly paycheck. And a lot of great talent has come through there and done very well there. And a lot of great work is done on that show.

Very, very solid stuff over the years. So I have no wish to criticize that show at all. Tina Faye said that Norm MacDonald the last time Saturday Night Live was dangerous is when Norm McDonnell was on. Ticina Faye said that. Did you ever witness anything with Norm? I do know that there was times where loan sharks were threatening to break his legs. In real life, I guess he had debt problems. He was a gambler, for sure.

Yeah, he was a gambler. He's actually a very funny, nice guy. But I guess dangerous in that. He'll do whatever he wants to do live or what have you. I guess Michael O'Donohanhee would take issue with that. He would probably feel that he was the most dangerous thing back in the day on that show. You were really smart. Usually that back then it was a five-year contract.

You did a one-year contract. actually, yeah, I did. Okay, now, Catherine O'Hara had been asked to do S&L and she went and the first day she realized it wasn't a good fit and she left. And I'm not saying that. Like, isn't that cool? I'm saying she understood intuitively. Now, I felt the same way. And of course, my agent, I called and said, and my agent made it sound like, your career will die. You'll be dead. You know, if that happens, if you leave, you can't. And I'm not saying I want to leave like, this sucks. I'm just saying there's like 18 cast members. You don't need me. I don't think this is going to be a good fit. I would like to go. when it came time to sign those contracts, I didn't want to sign a five-year contract.

Now, they still reserve the right to fire you. It doesn't mean you're going to be there five years. You can be let go at any time. But you are all, do you know what I'm saying? But if they want to. So the very first night I was on, as Don Pardo, the late Don Pardo, was saying the names. I'm under the bleachers with a lawyer from NBC who's saying, you sign or you don't go on. And I was like, that's fine.

You know what I mean? And again, I'm not saying like I'm a bad. I was just saying, I have still not unpacked my stuff at the Paramount. hotel. I'm quite happy to go. So they're literally going down the names and I'm not signing it. And so finally he just said fine. And then it now is not unusual. There are others now who don't sign the five year contract. You never had to. It was an artificial thing that you have to do. Like many things in life, you know, like when tow trucks say we're not responsible for any damage, they sort of are. But you believe that sign, you know what I mean? They are. They towed your car. They towed your

art if it's destroyed. They really are. But they, the sign, or don't walk under a ladder. It's bad luck. And many of you, even though I'm not serious, I don't walk under a letter. You have to sign a five-year contract. You actually don't. There's nothing more powerful than being like, oh, that's fine. I don't have to. I think I'd like to go back to Los Angeles to go back to the Larry Sanders show. Gary said I could come back to the Larry Sanders show. So I, for me, it was fine. But as Don Pardo's going down, there was this panic of, it's like, Chris Elliott. You know what I mean? Like, then my name comes, and the guy said fine. Now, the thing is, that's fine, because, you know, it's just showing a picture of you

in the opening credits, but I was in the first sketch after the monologue. I guess that's the way to do it. And then when I left the show, the agreement was that everybody was to understand I was fired. I wasn't. I just left. I got a call from two other cast members saying, how did you do that? How did you do that? It's like, you can just do it.

You can. You did 14 episodes, and contractually, they had you for the whole season. So how nerve-wracking was that to go into Lauren, Michael, office and sit down with him and tell him you're leaving. I think he was thrilled to have me gone. Honestly, he was, I don't think he was very fond of me. In fact, the nicest he ever was to me was the day I asked to leave. He was very fine

with that. And so it was easy. Your final show, George Clooney, the cranberries, did the cast say goodbye to you? No, no, no, no, there was a little effort to do that, and I was like, I did not earn that. There's no way. I have not only have made no impression

here, and not done good work. No, no one in the audience will ever know I was here or going, you know what I mean? So a couple of people tried to push me forward, but I remember thinking George Clooney, oh my God. And that's normally not my thing. You know, so great, look, funny and nice and George Clooney is, is, that was, that was, and I remember being sorry to leave thinking, what if I don't get to meet another. Oh my God, George Clayton, it was, it was like dreamy. You did that sketch with him with the water. Yes, yes. Yes, I did. I mean, the sketch, the sketch was not particularly good, but getting to do a sketch

with George Clinton, it was really wonderful. And like I said, it's not just because he's cute, he's got a great person. And he goes to the UN and fights for the Syrian refugees. He's like the whole package. Do you've acknowledged many times in interviews that you, with the drinking has been an issue? How did that affect you when you'd be on stage doing stand-up when you would be drinking? My setup did not progress nearly as much as it should have in the early years. There's a, there's a period of something being thwarted because of drinking. It didn't grow, didn't evolve. So it affected that way.

But I was, there's a lot of times, nobody could tell I was drunk, but me. Then it gets you. Then when people can start to tell, I just had the ability to drink an enormous amount. That's not a gift, but I mean, I could drink like a very tall person. I had the ability to drink a great deal, so I was drunk a lot. Now, tell me this. I could not tell watching this, but were you at all intoxicated when you guest hosted for David Letterman?

him? Yes. You could tell? I thought I could not tell. I was actually, I, but I was, I was actually intoxicated to the degree that's good. You know, you're drinking. Like, there's times when I feel like I'm firing, you know what I mean? And then it's like a few too many. So I felt like I had just, I was only a handful of shots in. That's nothing for me at that time. You were responsible for that show, which was incredible with Zach Altonakis, could not get booked on a late night show to save his life. You have complete power to book who you want to. And you put him on. And you put him and he has the piano never he'd been on a late night show and he absolutely destroyed yeah he was great it was they allow you to pick and because letterman was on vacation and paul shaper goes with

him and everybody else goes so you get to who do you want on the show and i was like bob odenkirk david cross act galfnakis who do you want for a band the old 97s done they just did it uh and and because also a lot of acts don't feel like it's worth their time to go on when when letterman's not there So they want to accommodate whoever is guest hosting. And then they also had a thing where you can't sit at Dave's desk and stuff like that, for real. And so I had them bring in little school desks, like children's desks. And police, I had them put police tape all around David Lennerman's desk. It was very enjoyable.

That was a really good night. Did Dave call you to say thank you, or did he write your notes? Oh, he sent me a thank you note and some jewelry, like a thing. but also he had at one point, he loved my dogs. He had seen my dogs, I guess on an HBO special I didn't. He's a real dog, a real dog guy. And years ago he had asked if I wanted to bring the dogs up to his place in Connecticut so that he could play with them. I was not to interact with him. This is true. And it's actually fine. But he would transport myself and the dogs to his home in Connecticut, where he would play with them on the beach and stuff, and I would, I guess, do

whatever, which actually is fine. I can understand that because he probably does, he had been so heartbroken when his dog Bob died because, you know, he had Bob and he had been together 20, you know, like almost 20 years. Bob was on the show. And Bob was on the show. And the heartbreak was so profound. And he never wanted to get another dog, but he wanted to be around dogs and play with them.

And so he had asked, or his assistant had asked, would you be amenable to that? And I was like, you know, I'd feel kind of funny about that. Not that I mind him. And I actually was like, what if I just send the dog, you know, the dogs in the car and then you can send them back? I just did, what would I do in the house? You know, I just didn't know what I would do. So I declined that.

And he meant it in the best of intent. I'm not saying as a weirdo. He just is a lover of dogs and didn't want to go through what he went through with Bob and also not interact with me, which is quite understandable. we don't know each other but I do remember the first time I was on the show at the commercial break he passed me a note that said I hate myself and everyone else hates me too

during the commercial break David Letterman did but he doesn't want to talk that's it he turns away he turns away do you know what I mean like he he wanted to communicate that to me he probably was feeling that but then he doesn't want chat which I is totally understandable

because I remember leaning towards to say something again. He very much went like that. And this is when he used to smoke and like quickly put the ashtray. Was the audience that night not a receptive audience with the laughter? I don't recall that with him. That was just his take on it. But no, I don't recall the audience being anything other than completely with him, as they always are. You were quoted talking about wet, hot American summer, which is, I love that movie. You said that you knew when you were making it that it was going to be a cult classic. Oh, no, no, no. I I felt like it was, and it wasn't for many years later.

I guess I was cocky that way. I enjoyed doing that so much and loved it so much. I remember just touting at Sundance where it did not get purchased and then proceeded to not sell tickets until Michael and David worked for years to build that. I remember saying, oh, this is going to be, people are going to be quoting it like Caddyshack. And, of course, it was panned, and nobody saw it until those guys. You said it's Sundance, instead of the industry going towards. that they went for Broken Lizard.

They went, yeah, for Super Troopers. Actually, I like that movie very much. I enjoy Super Troopers. There was talk, we're either going to get wet hot or Super Troopers, and I guess the bitters went with Super Troopers, which is fine. They're very good. And Michael and David, over the years, like, built up a huge community of followers for that movie, which led to the Netflix.

I love that everybody came back. I mean, Bradley Cooper, Elizabeth Banks, you have all these people. Well, actually, Bradley Cooper in season two, as you may know, was Adam Scott. and Adam Scott, and they just said he had a nose job. He did one day, though. He did the first season, and then he was not available for season two, so they just have Adam Scott as Bradley Cooper. And then when he comes on the scene, he's like,

hey, can you tell I had my nose fixed? And then I think Amy Poller's like, he can't even tell. But it's Adam Scott as Bradley Cooper. It's time to play True, Not True. Were you supposed to be Princess Fiona and Shrek? I was fired. I was let go. and then it was supposed to be Chris Farley

and myself and then I was let go and then Chris Farley passed away so then it then went into a period of well now what are we going to do but I was yes I was Princess Fiona and then I was told not by the person who fired me but by an assistant of an assistant that my voice

sounded too I guess to manly not princessy and I remember I remember thinking well I can do what you you know I mean if you had anybody had directed me to speak in a certain way, I certainly would have tried. But luckily, though, Shrek films tanked. I mean, it's no, I mean, it's no, I mean, it's no big time.

I mean, did anybody ever even see Shrek? I mean, did it come out? Shrek? That one hurts, I got to say, that one hurts. Is it true that you turned down a role in Fight Club? It was the, I know, I was not, I didn't turn it down. I was hired for Fight Club. David Fincher one of you.

And then Ed Norton dinged me, because he felt I did not have the skills. set. And he wanted Courtney Love, who was dating at the time to play the part. And then Brad Pitt dinged her. And the compromise. And a great actress, Helena Bonham Carter, who was very, very good in it and would have been much better than I would have been in it. But it was, yeah, I was set to play the part that Helena, and then all of a sudden I was not. And I called David Fincher, and I said, are you allowed to do that? And he goes, apparently. So maybe working with him wouldn't have been that fun. But Ed Norton, who had developed it with him, was the first one cast, and I guess he felt that he should have had a say, understandably, of who's

going to play that part, and David Fincher chose me. Ed Norton disagreed with that. So I guess Ed was like, no way. And then I said, well, can I, I understand that? Can I screen test with it? Can I do scenes with Ed? And Ed said, no. And, you know, I see him to this day. He lives very near me, and he never looks at me. Now, either he doesn't know who I am and doesn't remember it, but Brad Pitt very nicely, shortly thereafter, apologized to me on his behalf, said he heard about what happened, and he was sorry that that happened. But Helena Bonham Carter is a great actress, and I think I would have been terribly uncomfortable doing some of those things. I am not comfortable with nude. You know, I would have had to do scenes. Do you know what I

mean? Knowing that he didn't want me in the film, I would have had to have had intimate scenes. And then with a director who is as cavalier as David Fincher was at that time about that, like, he didn't even tell me. I had to call him. And that was his take on it, was, oh, yeah, you're out. That was a drag, because that's a great film. That's a great film. But I do think Helena Bonham Carter is a much better choice than me. Is it true or not true that, and just shoot me, the role of Maya Gallo was based on you? Yes, sort of. Semi, semi. One of the writers for the Larry Sanders show, it was based on me and some other people. But it's mostly based on, I guess, the character of Paul, not really, but he had, at, had inquired if I would be interested in doing that initially, and I didn't want to do a TV

series. And it's great Loris Anji Como. I have a Loris Sanji Como that I find a funny story. What Hot American Summer Season 1? I don't know if any of you have seen that on Netflix, but there's the courthouse scene where Michael Sarah is the lawyer and there's a judge. There's a very, very nice actor who was the judge, and for many days we shoot the scene over and over. And in between takes, were just, you know, BSing and stuff. And then so on the last day, he calls me over and he goes, Ms. San Giacomo, I just want to say, I have been such a fan ever since Sexilize and videotape.

And I was like, that's not me. But I understand why you would have been a fan of her from, but he, the whole time, thought that I was Laura San Giacomo, which is also mirrors, there's some people that are between jobs and between homes that maybe are a person that you frequently see near your home and you talk to or becomes you're a person

that you have somewhat of a relationship with. Over the years there was a person who was between jobs and between homes who I would see all the time and sometimes talk to and I then one day, this went on for a couple years, and then one day escorted to rehab and tried to get them to go into rehab.

And as they're walking away from me, the person said, I got to tell you, I love your music. And I said, I said, what? And he goes, Ms. DeFranco. This whole time, the whole time, thought I was Andy DeFranco. For a couple years this one, took them to rehab, sat with them for intake. And never once did we use each other. You know what I mean? I guess we, do I recall being called Annie or anything? We did talk about music a lot, but I thought that it's just the, because this, but I remember thinking, like, gosh, I didn't think that I really look like either of them that much, but isn't that something, Mr. Franco, I just have to sit.

But, yeah, I'm neither any DeFranco nor Laura San Giacomo. I don't know if it was worth telling you those stories, but, uh, I love it. Thank you. How was it that you were legally married for 20 years and not aware of it? I married in Las Vegas at a drive-thru as a joke. My then-boyfriend, Rob Cohen, and Dino Stamitopoulos married his then-girlfriend. We were in a cab. We went to a drive-thru.

Ha-ha-ha. And I guess in a black, I was very drunk. We went to sign papers. I don't recall any of this, but we actually went and had papers filed. I don't remember doing that. But 20 years later, Rob gets married for real. His lawyer pulls up these papers of some kind. I get a phone call saying I have to go to a Notary Republic

and have my marriage of 20 years. Dissolved. 20 years, you guys. 20 years I was married. What's the secret? I'll tell you. I'll tell you what the secret is. Because, I mean, that's like Paul Newman,

Joanne Woodward type stuff. The secret is don't know you're married. Live on different coasts and date other people the entire time. That's the key. That's the key to a long-term marriage. Yeah, so, yeah, I was married for 20 years and did not know it. I was watching your Young Comed Comedian special hosted by Dana Carvey. I think you were 27, and it's Apatow, it's Judd Apatat, Ray Romano.

Who else is in it, Kinler? Andy Kinler, Jud Apatow, Ray Romano, Bill Bellamy, Nick DePaolo. This was huge back in the day. Yeah, that was everybody. Back in the time when that meant something like the HBO Young Comedians special, like you used to, like way being on Carson used to launch comedians in to mainstream knowledge. It's not really like that anymore.

There's other mediums to do that. It just doesn't have the impact. But at the time, it was a big deal. And I was very excited to do it. I'm so thankful that not lots of footage exist. I can't stand old footage of my, it's so embarrassing to me to see not only what I'm talking about, but the way I'm doing it out of insecurity,

because I was nervous. And so what I did was overcompensate by, like, being very contained and talking like too cool for school. So embarrassing. It's not me at all that behavior. Also, I'm wearing boxer shorts, black tights. A look stolen from desperately seeking Susan.

So I'm copying from desperately seeking one of my favorite films. I'm wearing what Madonna wore in some of the same boxer underwear with tights and Doc Barnes. You do so great. You look, I'm guessing you were very nervous, but you looked very confident. I was, and it was the first time I

ever had my eyebrows plucked, and The person accidentally, because they were having conversation with someone, pulled out a chunk in the middle. And I'll tell you, my eyebrows are my waterloo. They really are my waterloo. They have been a problem for me for years. They never come out right there. And then in 1991, I shaved them off and penciled them in. Because I was copying Drew Baramore, who had started penciling them in kind of Jean Harlow in, like, 91.

And they never grew back the same. I talk about this all the time. My eyebrows. You've got great eye. You guys get, they are, they are my Waterloo. Questions from, from the audience? Yes, in the back. If you were asked to do a guest spot on SNL now, you can believe?

Of course, but I would never, they would never have me. I mean, that would never have, Lauren would never have me on that show. To have me on SNL would be unusual. I'd be like, why? Rachel Dretch played you on SNL. I know she, you know who, she did, which I, I'm very flattered by that. You know who did such a great impression of me? I'm not saying in the 90s.

Alex Borstein, I can remember channel surfing once, and I was like, when did I do that? I swear to God. I was like... Oh, on Mad TV? On Matt TV, and it was on a version of Politically Incorrect. I didn't see it at first. I could hear her.

And it was, I was like, what is that? And then Will Sasco was playing Clinton, and it was so hilarious, he kept referring to me. I agree with what that fella said. Me, I remember I think, that is so funny. that Bill Clinton was on the impression. I was a fella. Um, and Alex Worstine was dressed. I mean, it was exact, like to the type of button down at the time I was wearing from thrift shops, corduroys, the spice girl shoes, I think, that I was into at the time. Glasses, we had the same

hair. Also, we had the same, a similar voice register. I swear to you, I thought, what is this? It was Alex Worcester. I've never, I, I was so impressed with that, that, that she did that. But Rachel Dratchez, it's hard. Her voice, our voices are. so different. That was hard for her to do that. But I see her at many auditions now, Rachel and I, and as soon as we see each other, we say, I'm not going to get it. I'm not going to get it. In fact, we just had two weeks ago, the first thing we said, oh, I'm not going to get it. You too. I could get it. I'm not going to get it. And does somebody in the back had one question? Do you have any stories from work with actual like guests on a Larry

Sanders show that you play working with? I actually, I got to meet Catherine O'Hara, which was Bruno Kirby. Elvis Costello got to see play. see that oh everything was really I'm trying to think there's so many times Rino Kirby and Stephen Wright

made me laugh a lot Tim Conway oh not only am I a huge Tim Conway Harvey Corman fans at the Cal Burnett show Carol Burnett I mean it just

just it's like that that it's like when you I can't Bob Newhart you're just getting to be Bob Newhart Carol Burnett. And then I got to meet Albert Brooks, which was like, oh my God, this is amazing. We could stop here. And I'd be like, I've done it. I'd never thought in a million years I'd met.

Carol Burnett, Tim Conway, Albert Brooks, all this, Catherine O'Hara, Andrea Martin, it's just Dave Thomas, like all of these things. So every day for me was just like, this is amazing. Plus, Gary is the best boss you could ever ask for. and his dressing room was near my many of the time just shaving cream would come under the come under the door piled a shang cream and then times now this may seem vulgar but he would pretend he was using the restroom and his bathroom was here and I'd hear oh oh he was struggling in the bathroom I'll be all right and um and I remember thinking like this is heaven this is heaven that I'm in Unfortunately, many jobs are not like that.

It was like baptism by the opposite of fire with the Ben Stiller show and Larry Sanders show because it was like the best environment. And then the job subsequently, it's not like that where you're friends with everyone and you get to improvise and stuff like that. So, yeah. Jeanette, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for the paint. Have a nice night.

Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday. I don't know.

I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. And you're going to be. And I'm going to

be. Thank you.