Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Jimmy Kimmel's Back, But for How Long? [LateNighter Roundtable Podcast]

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Since returning from suspension last month, Jimmy Kimmel has enjoyed near–folk-hero status among fans and peers alike. Attention now turns to whether he’ll remain at Jimmy Kimmel Live! after his current contract expires in May 2026. That topic leads the debut edition of LateNighter's Monthly Roundtable podcast, where Bill Carter, Mark Malkoff, and Jon Schneider take stock of the late-night stories that defined October.

Hello, everybody, and welcome on in to our first late-nighter roundtable for October of 2025. My name is John Schneider from Late-Nighter, and I'm so excited to be with you for this month, and hopefully every month moving forward to talk about the biggest stories that are happening right now throughout the late-night universe, and we have two of our late-night experts with us to talk through all of the major storylines from the last month. So first, let's bring in the editor-at-large for Late-Niter, and that is Bill Carver. Bill, how are you? I'm good.

Everybody looks good, so great to be with you guys. Great to be with you, Bill. Always excited to hear your thoughts on everything we got going on. So looking forward to our discussion today and joining us as well is one of the great late night minds there is, an expert in all things Johnny Carson and late night, and that is Mark Malkoff. Mark, how are you? Doing great.

Thanks for having us, John. Of course, happy to be here. So let's dive right in and talk about what we saw in October of 2025. Clearly the biggest story coming into the month. was Kimmel's suspension and him returning. He had just returned during the final week of September and then would head to Brooklyn for a week of shows at the start of October.

We had appearances from Colbert, John Stewart, Seth Myers, and this sort of this grand return for Jimmy Kimmel to get on the air. Bill, I'd love to know from you, do you think that Kimmel bounced back from what was a pretty rough September? Bounce back? I don't think he's ever bounced higher right now. Um, no, I think he got, uh, tremendous support, um, not just in the late night community,

but in the country. And, uh, it seems to be, he seems to be riding that wave. I mean, uh, you watch his show now that people are there. They're, they're not just there to laugh. They're there to cheer. Um, they feel like he stood up and they, they admire him for it. So I think he's come out of it on a very positive note. But of course, the future is anybody's guess. It's fascinating. And I, you know, I sort of just like threw the softball there for you to hit out of the park because I agree. I think that what I've seen from watching Kimmel over the last month is that the crowd is going wild.

There's this sort of Jerry Springer-esque thing where he comes out for the monologue and people are cheering, Jimmy, Jimmy. So Mark, it is very incredible in what was, you know, sort of like a little bit of a mystery in September about how this whole thing would resolve itself that Jimmy's in the place that he is in right now at the end of October. It's unbelievable. I mean, for late night to get this. attention and for there to be that much energy and attention. I really wish that late night

would get this much attention overall, but it had to just take really big circumstances. But I think Bill and maybe John would agree as well, I think a lot of us, including Jimmy, didn't think he was going to be back. I mean, I knew people at the show. I talked to them. And I think a lot of people were like, it's over with. So for this to happen and for Jimmy to try, triumph like this. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's unbelievable what that guy has accomplished in the momentum of his show. I can't imagine him not continuing with the show after his contract. I really, really can't the way he's going. I will say, I did not agree with people who said he wouldn't be back because I thought he would be back. The reason I

thought he would be back was because, at least from his point of view, he doesn't give in. This guy does have a spine, that's for sure. But the other thing is, I think people underestimated the weakness of the affiliates who were trying to pull them off the air. They cannot survive without their network. So as long as ABC, as long as ABC was not going to cave. And so the ball was sort of in their court, but I felt like particularly Eiger had a lot on the line reputationally. And I thought he's, he's not going to just fold this tent. And the fact, fact that they were talking about it made me think he's not he's not going to now now it was certainly uncomfortable and there was a lot of pressure and i think jimmy thought it was over at one

point i think he did think it was over but i had a suspicion that these these affiliate groups that were pulling him off would go back very quickly to put them on and you notice they did because they really i think they have like a contract that says they can preempt five times and then they're threatened by losing their affiliation well that would be a disaster for them because imagine a local station right now without a network affiliation. Without football. Football is the big.

Football, without sports, without college football. That is a very big loss. So they had some leverage. But I still think it all came down to Jimmy, not knuckling under. I know that the Kimmel story was somewhat compared to what happened

to Jack Parr back in the day and there was that homage of, you know, as I was saying before I was interrupted when Kimmel does return, which was a great, great moment for late night overall. But, well, have we seen anything like this in the late night universe ever, a redemption story? You could sort of talk about like a guy who wasn't getting maybe the attention he deserves and now he's thrust himself into the spotlight? Conan? I will say, you know, Conan is not back

in late night, but he's never been bigger. That's for sure. That strikes me as an example of somebody who has risen above his unfair demise, I guess you might say. But, I mean, the situation has never been like this. This was governmental pressure. The only comparison is this mother's brothers, which wasn't a late-night show. But that was a show forced off the air because of its politics. So that was a comparison. And they did go off the air.

In fact, they sued and everything. But they were never the same. They were never the same after they lost their show. So what also makes it interesting is that Jimmy has been hinting that he's considering leaving the show for now maybe two contract cycles. So there was that overhanging the situation. What was his feeling about going forward? And I read about this today because I feel like, you know, I don't know that he has a choice anymore. I mean, I think he has to do it.

I mean, I think he can't now say, well, I've made my point. I'm really tired of doing the show, so I'm going to bow out. I think that would, you know, the point I made is he had an obligation to his family because his family is all hired on the show. He's carrying all these family members on the show. And he used to say to me, I can't quit. My whole family will go broke. All my cousins and relatives will go broke.

So he does. So, but now his constituency is bigger. It's like the whole part of the country that doesn't like what's happening to Trump is now depending on him to stand up. Bill, not only that, I really think that Jimmy realizes and we realize if he leaves and decides to leave, there's not going to be a replacement in late night. This is the end of network television late night show as we see it. I mean, Byron Allen is kind of figured out that what probably if it does come back is going to be the new metrics, which is you do a much cheaper scaled down version of what we've been seen. But once Kimmel leaves, that's never coming.

I could be off, but I can't see network television coming back like that with a late night show and having that budget. You know, it's interesting. It would leave Fallon, right? So it would leave the Tonight Show. It would like move us back 30, 40 years until we had one, until we had one show. And you would think if there's interest in late night and there seems to be enough interest that they sign up for YouTube channels, that one show, one stand-a-low show would have a chance to keep going. And after all, Trump has attacked Fallon as well, but clearly not in the same terms as

Colbert and Kimmel, and Fallon is not irritating him nightly. So there would be that advantage. But I think it's interesting, and I suppose we'll get to this point, but that Fallon is not doing great now. You know, he's does very well digitally, but in terms of subs. But his ratings tend to be third now, which belies the idea that avoiding politics is the way to go. So let's put a pin in that bill, because I want to talk about that. And I just have a couple of more Kimmel questions for you both.

So first is you brought up the contract. You have a great piece on Late Nighter right now talking about Kimmel's contract and the potential of them renewing it and him wanting to return. The major question that I have is, did Trump, and the administration and the FCC potentially extend the lifetime of Kimmel's show by doing what they did? Yes. I think that's a big fat yes. I think Mark's point is interesting because let's say none of this happened and Kimmel just decided I've had enough. I'm leaving. Would he have been replaced by ABC? I don't know. I don't know what their feeling is about the whole late night idea. So this has thrown that all completely. quickly up in the air. And I think it has extended it. I think one of the interesting questions is what kind of renewal does Kim will get and what kind of renewal does Stewart get? Do they

get a one year renewal? Let's just see what happens in one year. Or does the network, ABC, in this case, I think, make a statement and say, no, we want to give Jimmy a three-year deal if Jimmy will take it. That would be the statement that we're absolutely committed to staying in late night. And for Comedy Central, it's the same thing. I don't know what Comedy Central does without the Daily Show. They have one show then. They have South Party. If you want to mention, and I don't think that this has really been talked much in the media, I don't know if at all. There was a point when Letterman at CBS and Craig Ferguson, would they were producers and I think maybe even some of the host had to take cuts. They were taking cuts and salary. It was like a

third, and it would affect both shows. So I don't know what kind of stuff is going on behind the scenes, but for them to make a contract, if that is even on the table for somebody to take less money, but it could be. It obviously could be marked. They look what they've done with Seth Myers. I mean, they've basically gotten rid of every extraneous thing they can. They've taped two shows in one day now to try to cut back as well. So yeah, I can see a lot of the driving motivation now is let's get the cost under control. But I think it's pretty interesting that the daily show numbers are up. I think that's kind of interesting.

That makes me think, you know, if Layneye keeps on this, on the story of the moment, they have a chance to kind of catch a little fire with Youngerview. That's where they're up. They're up with the 18 to 49 audience. So I was shocked by that. I didn't think they even turned on a television set. So that surprises me. And besides Kimmel's monologue when he returned, which I think was a fascinating moment for late-night television in general, I think that John Stewart's night at the Daily Show where he showed up and the whole set was painted in gold and he was cow-towing to Trump for half an hour, I think was some of the most brilliant late-night comedy I've seen in a long time.

So if I'm going to recommend something for our viewers for the last couple of months to go back and watch, I definitely recommend that. I think another interesting angle here that I want to ask the two of you about is the support from the other late night hosts. This has been a well-publicized story going back to COVID and Strike Force 5 about how close these late-night hosts are. But we saw it in July after the Colbert cancellation on July 21st, when you saw, you know, Anderson Cooper, Andy Cohen, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Myers, all show up, John Oliver, John Stewart, all showed up to Colbert show after the cancellation to support him. And then you had all of these hosts showing up in Brooklyn for Kimmel and them coming out and we're here. hearing about Fallon and Kimmel's fishing trips and all of this, it is just a completely different world than what we were in going back 20 years. And I find it so fascinating at this time with all the things that are going on that like everyone's coming out of the woodwork to support each other, Bill. On one level, it really stinks, John, because it was much better for guys like me when there was an actual conflict.

But it is interesting and it's only been, you know, deepened by. They're all lumped together in Trump's enemy list. You know, they all feel the heat from him. And I think they all feel like it's a survival mode. So they're all, you know, it's interesting. You know, when I used to watch Strike Force Five, you could sort of see that maybe Fallon wasn't quite as in it with the other guys. It seemed like they were very nice to him and all that.

But there was a little bit of an edge to that, I thought. And I find it fascinating because I think he's a stylistic. quite different from the other guys. He really is. But this is like a brotherhood now. You know, this is who they are. They're late night hosts. They have the same basic function, same tribulations. Let's get a show on every day. Let's run a staff. Let's pick writers. All that. They share with themselves and virtually nobody else on the planet. So it's a unique situation that they're in. Mark, what do you think of all these late night hosts and the way that they support each other? I just think the culture shift.

I remember 25, 30 years ago on a Saturday Night Live, people would criticize one another, cast members, they would say negative things about one another. And then if you look at the Shales, James Andrew Miller book, it stops generationally. I think it's a different generation where everybody, I'm sure that it is real, that they're all friendly with one another, but it seems very generational that they are not going to say anything negative in everybody's friends. I just think it's a different generation where that is just much more common and accepted, where back in the day, it was not like that. To me, it's like probably because they have no prospects eating at their heels, it makes it easier.

When you have no one in line to take over the throne of your show, it makes it easier to bond with your competitors. It's like people going to a bar and you've seen them. And you're like, oh, I've seen you at that table and eventually you start talking to them. That's a good point. Yeah, I think if there was someone in line and waiting to take over this a night show, take over late night, take over Kimmel, I think that there is more pressure on these hosts to put their foot down on what they do. But besides external factors, I think that the hosts have gotten very comfortable. Yeah, I think you're right about that. One of the interesting developments is that the young comics, who in the past would have two paths to big stardom, one would be a sitcom.

If you broke in a major sitcom, and the other was to host a late-night show. You now have hosts like, what's her name from after midnight, who decides not to do it because she's much rather to her and be a stand-up. And they can do way, way better financially now than they used to be able to do. Even Conan. So it's the only goal to get out there and be, you know, so you don't have, John is correct. you don't have this lineup of guys or girls now saying I got to get that shot that's why I got to get that shot I mean I think it's kind of interesting that Josh Johnson who I think is emerged as a real big standup in his generation I mean really big he is and he and I interviewed him he said he was interested in being the host of a daily show eventually which I think kind of goes against the trend it's interesting I mean Mark you recently interviewed Roy Wood Jr and talked to him about you know, leaving the Daily Show and he was somebody who, you know, clearly, you know,

a lot of viewers thought that there was a big future for him there. He now is at CNN posting how it got news for you. But I, you know, when you have a big prospect like that, like somebody like Josh Johnson, you know, do you start predicting if they'll take that mantle in the future, or are you comfortable where you are with them right now? I just think it just takes a few years and how hot they are. Michael, Jay, how long was he at the Daily Show before they, the talent is talent and Lorne Michaels says like we want this guy and you're doing a basic cable show which is highly watched and it's great but when you're that talented like he is and I'm not saying Roy Wood Jr. isn't. Roy Wood Jr. just said that you know he just saw the writing on the wall

basically and I think he's in a much better place. Come on one show when doing a show once a week and having your own name on the show is great. I was going to say with Conan for example I mean, he works way less than all the late night shows doing his podcast, and it's probably making more money per year than all of them, I'm guessing. I mean, just the model, everything is just changed a lot. So let's talk about Fallon. We mentioned him earlier and how he's steered clear of a lot of the political action that's gone on with these other shows.

I, you know, think back to something that we covered on Late Nighter a couple weeks ago when he was promoting on brand and he had an interview on MSNBC. and he said, well, my show isn't really political. And it was sort of interesting that he came out and said that, given the talk about everything that was happening with all of the other late night shows. And certainly, I know that, you know, everyone who watches all the late night shows has opinions about Jimmy Fallon and finds him pretty polarizing. But I think he's fascinating personally because I think that what he's done,

especially in the last month, as all the other shows have addressed, you know, politics, everything that's happening with Trump, freedom of speech. he's had Taylor Swift. He's at the K-pop Demon Hunters, the singers. He's tried to get the biggest stars in the world to come on his show. And I think Bill back to when Taylor Swift was on his show a couple weeks ago and said, you know, the reason I come here and I don't go other places is because you make the show fun. And is that worth something nowadays that we're watching what's happening around late night TV and he's still the fun guy? I think that's his brand. I don't think he can do the other stuff well. So he's doing the right thing. Jimmy's a really talented guy. I mean, he can do so many things. I mean, he really is a super talented guy. So, you know, he's playing the cards that he has in his hand. I think that's wise because when he does do,

and the top of his monologue is often a couple of jokes about whatever's going on with Trump, they just go by. They don't, you know, they don't really land because it's not his thing. And so I think he's doing, I would never say he should change because when he tried the whole thing with Trump before, that blew up in his face and he wanted to apologize. That was all, he was uncomfortable in that space. And I think he's very comfortable in this space. The question I have is that it isn't the same as it used to be when Johnny,

Johnny would not have a point of view politics, but he did plenty of politics. It just wasn't point of view politics. He would make pretty potent jokes about whoever was the politician of the, day worth making fun of. He just wasn't going to expose a point of view about it. He might sneak in a little, but it wasn't, and he could do that because he was really skillful. I think right now you have a figure who is just either revered or reviled. There's nothing else in between. And so it's very hard to walk the line like that. And I don't think it is scoring like it could for for for for fallon because you know if you look at hit what turn turns up on

youtube it's the monologue and they they will say on their thing that you know jimmy says this joke it's the trump thing they kind of high even though he's not doing it much on the air because it's clickbait oh there's a trump thing going on you know it's still there's something a little more edgy about that and jimmy doesn't do edgy really you know so He's, I think he's got to do what he's got to do, but I'm not sure it works tremendously for him right now because it ought to be, if you listen to people who said, I'm sick of politics, I'm sick of them doing Trump jokes,

I'm sick of it, then he should be dominating because he's the one that's avoiding that. But that isn't the case because I think it's still a show on that night and the people who are watching are still a little attuned to what's gone on today. That was certainly why the top of Johnny's monologue was so effective. He was on top of that all the time. And it feels like Jimmy will do it, but he's not committed to it. And that's a big difference.

I don't know why Jimmy can't do, like, cold opens as Trump. And you know how so many people at SNO when they did presidents, they can still do it in a way that's, if he doesn't want to, you know, show his politics or be respectful, He can still, he does a great Trump. It's all execution, and it's all the point of view. You're right, and Mark, you're right, because not everything Trump does is political. Some of it is just goofy, right? So it was just buffoonish and silly and goofy, and you can always do that because that's safe territory, really.

You can always do that. You don't have to have him, you know, insulting women or whatever. You know what I mean? He can be walking around in Japan yesterday looking like he's. he's lost, you can do that. And Jimmy, he, if he does a Trump thing, he can fall into the impression instantly because he does it well. But are you right?

I think a cold open would be a great idea. Anything that's different right now, I think is a great idea in late night. Anything that's different and fresh, I think is a great idea. I think the thing for Fallon is that for me, it always depends how you define success. Clearly, there's been decades of defining success in late night as ratings. But I find, you know, speaking to a lot of younger people who are big Saturday Night Live fans and watch some of Fallon and set that they stick with the NBC shows, but they stick specifically with Fallon because they get short clips of him playing games with their favorite celebrities and having conversations about their projects and learning more about their favorite movies and TV shows. They don't want to see him playing Trump. And, you know, it was, it's been fascinating as I was doing late night last night for the last month over at late night or talking to some of the S&L fans to tell them that I was doing this.

And then they would say, well, I don't really watch Colbert or Kim. Well, I actually watch Fallon. Like, he's the one that comes to my algorithm. And, you know, because they're not seeking these shows out necessarily. They're waiting for the shows to come to them. And Fallon has found a way to bring his show to the people. But number wise, he has more digital subscribers. far, by far than the other guys.

But viewership, if you look at the number of views he gets, is very low. So he's not really capturing that. He's not getting people to say, I got to see the game that he found played with the guest. Because, and it doesn't surprise me, because if you're watching and you happen to be watching, it's kind of fun. But would you go out of your way to see that? You know, him doing a word game with somebody? It doesn't feel like something you think about and say, oh, I got to see Jimmy. Fallon do that. He really would be better, I think, in an era when you kind of watch the show

as it happens because he is fun and he would be sort of a fun thing to look at. I think it's harder for him to translate to, you know, discernible viewing where you say, I'm going to watch that because I got to see John Stewart do X. I'm watching John Stewart because I know he does this spectacular thing tonight. Fallon could do two things that I think would get up the ratings and help and I draw as that show. One, go back to doing pre-tapes, the parodies that he did that would people miss. I do understand that he's a father, he's married, and I know that the time that it probably takes to put that stuff in, that might be an issue. The second thing is, I'm telling you, Seth Myers is doing the two shows in one day, these days. Jimmy, and I've said this

before, should go up to 8H and make that his permanent home Monday through Wednesday, do a double on one of those days because they're only doing Monday through Thursday, double the audience out there's going to give them so much energy. Leno with a thrust stage in 94 when he went out there. Revolutionized the Tonight Show. Jay, that was the catalyst that really set that for Leno to go back to Burbank and it just changed the show. I think it can't hurt at least them going up to 8H and trying that in Monday through Wednesday doing the Tonight Show that. But you're making an excellent the point and what you're real what i really miss about found was he would do sketches he would do creative stuff he would do mom dancing with michelle obama he would do

slow jamming the news right he's not doing any of that those are the bits that people miss he did he did uh thank you notes the other it was the first time he did it in like six months he doesn't do the signature bits that he did before it but and as you're observing it could be that he wants to be a father or whatever except then he's running off and doing on brand and password and all of the rest of it. He's got, his focus is not only on the Tonight Show and being creative on the Tonight Show. Don't you think there's a chance that NBC with ratings and everything that that's part of their, we don't know their contracts that that's part of keeping their show that they have to do

other double duty. I mean, Jimmy's hosting a millionaire who wants to be a millionaire. We don't know behind the scenes if like for them to keep doing their shows and getting their salaries, they have to maybe double up and do some other things. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. But, I mean, it just feels, I mean, is the on-brand thing valuable for Jimmy Fallon's career?

I get the impression that maybe it's just something he's interested in. I think he's always had the fascination with marketing. And I, you know, you see that with the shoe deals and the ice cream and all that stuff that he's done over the years, that I feel like this is something that maybe he's doing for him. But I agree. John, that's my point. He's doing that. instead of the stuff that Mark and I just talked about.

He's not doing the stuff that would make the tonight show a little more exciting. And I look, I'm a bit of a found defender, but I will say that, you know, at least in the last month, look, he. I like him. I'm not saying you don't. That's the fun debate here, is that I'm not saying that you don't like him, but I will say, like, look, he did go to Detroit. He's doing the NFL Sunday, like, lead out shows, so, or lead in shows. So I think those are things. When he was in Detroit, he did a lip sync battle with he might.

I think that was something that people were excited that he brought back. He is bringing back some old bits, which I think helps thank you notes, the hashtags that he completely went away from when Twitter turned to X. So I think that those are things that work. He last week did a sketch with Charlie Puth. So I see like a little bit more of an effort. Maybe it isn't exactly the way it was in 2015 or 2016, but I think that he's doing a little more. And I think that the bookings for Fallon have been unbelievable.

I don't know that we can say like this is because of Falun. specifically, but whoever, you know, the booking department that are getting the biggest stars in the world to come to his show, every day there's somebody on there that's a list compared to the other shows. I just don't know why. And I've mentioned this to some people over there that Johnny Carson his first 10 years at the Tonight Show, the writers and the talent coordinators were prepared Johnny's ad-lips, possible ad-lips for all the interviews. Sometimes Carson went on his own. Sometimes he had ad-libs. And I don't know why they wouldn't have the 20-plus writers that they have at Fallon. try that with Jimmy and they don't and I just think with his interviewing sometimes I just

I don't know why they wouldn't try something like that I just think that that would help the interviews a little bit that I don't that just made I do want to stress because I actually I've had a very good relation with Fallon and and when he was really on the outs I happened to run into him in LA and we had a really long conversation that he still remembers and I I'm fond of the guy on a personal level actually um as what But I think he's really talented, and I think he's kind of drawn back from that a little bit. That's sort of what, when he was first on, it was electric and fascinating, that he was doing something different and it was full of energy, that Mark made the energy point. It was really full of energy.

And I just feel like that's not really quite there now, and for whatever reason, and it could be, because I think the guy has, I mean, the guy can, you know, grab a guitar and be Bob Dylan, you know. I mean, he just can do that, you know, or Springsteen. Or Sandler, yeah, he's amazing. He's an actual amazing impressionist, actually. And, you know, I said to him once, I saw you do this. And did you have to like work to get in? He said, no, no, I could do it for you right now. And he just could jump right into an impression.

To me, it's unreal. So I find that a little frustrating when I watch him that. I'd like to see more of him doing what he's great at. Fair enough. All right, let's pivot to Saturday Night Live. This is the first month for season 51 of S&L taking place in the same building as Fallon. And when we enter the month, a lot of questions were being asked about how S&L would address everything that was happening in late night with freedom of speech. Kimmel was in Brooklyn at the time.

Would Kimmel show up? Would Colbert show up? None of that happened. And we went on status quo as usual. I mean, there were some fun stuff in the opening with, you know, Colin Joseph's Pete Heggzeth. But we didn't get to see any addressing of what was happening in the late night universe. Even last week, you know, there was a lot of talk about the No Kings marches. S&L went with Domingo as the cold open.

It really seems like they are avoiding doing major political talk right now on Saturday Night Live. And I would love to know from the two of you how you feel about how S&L has opened up their season and how they've addressed some of these things. Mark, I'll start with you on this one. I don't think they've really addressed anything. I mean, you know, the host has so much say, and I could see Sabrina Carpenter wanting to do a Domingo cold open. just the metrics of 20 million people on YouTube watching Domingo, even though I've seen it and I feel like it's run its course. Yeah, I feel like they haven't addressed it.

I mean, they've did a little bit. I was very surprised, but yeah, I love what I like the show. I think the ladies are stealing the show. I really do. I think that they're doing a great job. But yeah, I don't feel like it's been that much addressed. Do you, Bill? Not at all.

And I felt like, well, Domingo, It's not a sketch that works for me anyway. But, okay, you should use it. Again, you have a big singing star on. Of course, you should use it. But first of all, very rarely is the host in a cold open. Very rarely, right? That's a rarity.

So you can do Domingo any time in the show. You don't have to do it at a cold open. I think you have an expectation now that Saturday Life is going to do some kind of satirical thing as it's cold open. Something that everybody's thinking about in the news. And it looks like they avoided that. They're like, let's not do it. And with the atmosphere that we have, with efforts to mute these shows and threats about what can happen to ownership and ownership deciding to invest in ripping down the East Wing or whatever, you know, there's questions that are going to pop up. Like, well, why didn't they do this obvious thing?

They just had to know King's Marsh. There's no idea. Nobody has a funny idea about that. I will say update has done a good job. Update has done a very good job. And I think that's the part of the show that addressed it. But you would accept, the viewers expect a cold open. And when it's not there, that's, it's questions.

There's nothing about, there's nothing about Domingo that says cold open to me. It's a recurring sketch, right? It's been on many, many times. It can appear anywhere in the show. It doesn't make any sense to me as a cold open. I just felt like either. either they were avoiding or they wrote something and it failed because that could happen. That has happened in the past.

The cold open, they practice, and it just bombs and they say, well, Domingo will work. Let's put that in. I don't know if they did that or not, but that's, I felt, I was so disappointed by that. I mean, turned me off to the show that that entire episode. I was like, come on. And I didn't think it was a good episode, frankly. But, and I like her. I think she's talented and a very appealing personality.

I think the younger people that were tuning in Sabrina Carpenter fans probably wanted that and it probably wasn't for us. I think Polar had the best show was number two. I thought Sabrina Carpenter was the next runner up in terms of the writing and she was an effortless host and then the season premiere, why does season premiere

so hard sometimes? That bunny was great. I thought the writing was just okay. Yeah. I thought this week was by far the weakest, but you see the ratings weren't very good either. This week would shock me. I thought they would be with her as the host.

I thought they would be. But I don't know. To me, it's interesting because I don't know what you guys. You're more expert maybe in the actual way the show works historically. But it seems like when they have a show that comes on after a break, it isn't that good. And then a couple of weeks in, there's a really good one. Like they have to get into some sort of a rhythm. So I was so really looking forward to the third one for that reason,

that they might have hit a stride. But another thing that bothers me, and I have to say it really isn't relevant to that show so much is how can you do this show without a black woman in the show in the cast? I mean, how can you do it? I don't, when I saw

that they were not replacing ego and I was like, what's going to happen if there's Jasmine Crockett or somebody is really prominent? What are you going to do? Bring back another old cast member. It's all you can do. I found that really shocking. And it really puts the burden, I think, on Chloe Feynman and Sarah Sherman.

They have some, some of the new people are starting to emerge. But it just felt like that was a big mistake. I don't know what you guys think. Veronica is incredible. Her and Ashley are incredible. But yeah, I thought the, and John can probably speak more to this. Ego leaving seemed like that they were, it was a last minute surprise that they didn't know she was leaving. But I'm in agreement.

They need to cast someone. She was so good at what she did. I mean, I really, really miss her on the show. 100%. They, you know, that is something that I'm sure S&L is trying to address. I don't think it was something that they were prepared for. They did hire two black women writers. I know Joe Sunday was just in a pre-tape in the Sabrina Carpenter episode.

So it is possible that something does materialize there. I think that everybody who's watching the show feels exactly the same way as you do, Bill. So to me, it's just a matter of time for them to figure this out. but I think that Lorne isn't the type to be pressured into a decision. So I think that he's... You're right about that, John. Yeah. So I think that he's probably waiting for the person that he feels,

you know, probably should be on that cast. As far as the, you know, Domingo, Cold Open and all of that stuff. So I believe that was still the Cold Open in dress. I think that that was something that reminds me a lot of what's happening in Fallon. Like I think that there's some synergy there where that they're trying to build this show and the future of the show to be for the algorithm. them for people to find the show in that way. And the people who are searching Sabrina Carpenter, all of the fans who are not staying up to 1130 at night, the first thing they're

going to see when they wake up in the morning is Domingo. So it's just a matter of how they're choosing to build their show and who the show is really for at this point. So I do think that that's a large part of the decision-making process here. I think, Mark, you said something really interesting, which is that you feel like Jost and Che are doing a really good job on update, handling a lot of the political humor. Why is that? Why do you think that they're doing such a great job. I just think that their point of view is just so people, it's so refreshing. I feel like maybe after what Norm MacDonald was doing on update,

it's probably the edgiest update that I've seen. And I just think it's the one thing I hear from people that watch the show, that regardless that they like the episode or not, that I consistently will say, I like that update. I always love an update. And it's rare that they disappoint. I just think they're very consistent. I think the writing is really, really solid.

And there's just something about the two of them and their chemistry that I think it's consistently some of the strongest part of the show. What's interesting is that even when the show isn't working for me, I always laugh at update. There's always laughs an update. You know, it almost doesn't matter. You know they're going to have very good jokes that they're going to deliver. And they have a rapport now that really works. So it's very dependable. It's really essential because you might be watching the show and thinking, that's lagging,

and then that comes on, and you definitely laugh. So, you know, that, they earn the laugh for sure. My final topic on Saturday Night for the first month as we go through, you know, generally things that are happening at the show during each month is that prior to the season, uh, Lorne spoke with Puck and mentioned that there was going to be some changes at the show. A lot of the media interpreted that as a major shakeup. We ended up losing a lot of cast members, including Ego that we spoke to and we ended up hiring five new cast members. So there certainly is some fresh feeling to the people we're seeing

on screen. But is it enough for you guys that the show feels a lot different right now into 51 versus what we saw last year in 50? I'm going to say I think 51 has less energy than last year. I think it's inevitable. I think that was something that was going to happen no matter what, even if they'd hired 10 new people or no new people. Look, I've been fortunate to write about the show forever, and I've talked to Lauren forever. And this show has to do this. It has to go through cycles. It can't continue

without changing up its style and its cast. So this is another edition of that for me. Like, okay, well, we'll see. I don't know the full depth of the talent that they have there. I don't know. I trust Michael's because he's

got an eye like nobody who's ever been in show business for this. But it takes time. I mean, You know, I don't think, you know, I remember when Kate McKinnon was in the cast for the first time, the first few episodes, I didn't know who she was. You know, like, and then she appeared once on Weekend Update, and I happened to be writing a thing about the show that week. And you probably remember the bit. She was playing the, the woman, the artist who messed up the painting in Italy, right?

Of course. And I went to the Friday night run through this, and I saw this, and I said, holy shit, did that kill? And that is going to kill. she was so good. I was amazed by it. And I'm like, okay, that's, that was in her. I didn't know that was in her, you know, so all of a sudden then she becomes a big honking star. So you don't know about that. You don't, you don't know necessarily who's going to be the person and until they get their feet. And some of them disappoint, you know, some of them, they hire them and you don't see them for two years and they're gone, you know, but I kind of have faith that the

over the long term, the stars will emerge because they always have. Mark, I feel like that's what we're seeing right now, where the major topic of conversation in the S&L streets is about Ashley Padilla as being the potential star of this show. She had a huge month. She had the two probably most talked about sketches in week number one and week number three. In week number two, she was in eight sketches. It's been back to back to back weeks of greatness from Ashley. Is she SNL's next star? She's absolutely phenomenal. I think Veronica also, I mean, from being in just a few episodes. I mean, I just can't even imagine where she's going to take the show. I think that they're absolutely phenomenal, but I'll say this, and I said it before, I really hope it stays

an ensemble. And it became the Kate McKinnon show, became the Kristen Wigg show, and it was the Will Ferrell show. And the show works the best in terms of the writing when it's still an ensemble. You can maybe have somebody, a utility person, maybe they put a little bit more than everyone else and if it's necessary, but please let it keep it balanced playing field. I hope so, but I think Ashley's phenomenal. I really do. I think she's great. I wish they hadn't used her in an extended fart joke. That, to me, just doesn't. Steve Higgins has to do as cut the merry sound effects. That just, to me, is the, talking about the lowest form of humor. That's just the lowest. Agreed, except, you know, the fact that she was able to pull it off as

successfully as she did, it goes to show, you know, this is a potentially great situation that we're seeing here with somebody like Ashley. And I tend to agree with you, Mark. I think that some of my favorite moments in the history of Saturday Live have been with ensemble cast. But at a certain point, the cream does rise to the top. And I think if you have a cast member that is significantly stronger than the others, then as Lorne, as the producers, you have no choice but to showcase them. So the question is, is will the rest of the cast rise up to the level that Ashley has been producing in these first three episodes. I think that's something we're going to look forward to in November.

Bill, I want to jump to you and talk to you about Byron Allen, who you spoke to at Ad Week. You know, one of the major stories that we were talking about over at Late Nighter was him potentially wanting Colbert's slots once he leaves the show. So what do you think is going to happen there? Well, you know, I saved asking that for the end of the interview, right? Because I thought, I don't want to totally, but, you know, I thought he would dodge and weave it. But he didn't. He said, yeah, of course I want to do that.

Of course, that's my goal. So I thought, okay, well, that's kind of newsworthy. You know, he is a guy who doesn't really have, he's not an entertainer anymore. He started out, but he's not an entertainer. He's a business guy looking to build his empire or something. And it's a weird empire. You don't know why he put these various parts together. you know, why he has the weather channel and sports from, you know, historically back

colleges. And it's just a bunch of things. But this formula that he has has clearly kind of worked because he's hooked into this. He first hooked into the stations of what they needed, right? They need programming. And he said, I'll give it to you for nothing. I'll give you programming for nothing. I just give me ad spots and I'll give you programming for nothing.

And they're like, okay, go ahead, go on the air. And then he devises a format where he can run the sprocket. off the thing. You know, it's comics are telling jokes they told 12 years ago. It's three runs, but he makes it completely non-topical and non-political and, you know, not really edgy. And it fills time. It's just a time filler. There's nothing, there's no special reason to watch the show. And what happens when that goes into 1130? I mean, I guess it's the same. I guess it's the thing as now he just, he has a newish show, which just goes into this machine and then gets replayed again and presumably we'll see it in 10 years or something. And it's a formula. It's a

formula for it. It's not an entertainment plan. It's a formula plan. Mark, I feel like the insiders of late nights find this fascinating with Byron Allen, but will anybody care if he does take over the Colvarez slot? Not really. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, Byron Allen is, is a student of late night. He definitely has great respect for late night. I mean, he talks about every comedian that does Johnny Carson has two birthdays. One is the Carson debut and the real birthday. He has his suit frame. Bill, you were with me in Byron's office. He has that suit when he wore on John. I wasn't. I wasn't in his, but I have been in his, were you in the office that day? Yes, he was. Yeah. He used to show. You weren't a Webby. So did

do it. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, I was there. He has it in his, in a huge frame, the jacket. He's a student of late night. I think this was always been an ambition of his. And I just think economically he's figured up. They do like five tapings in a day, right? And there's sound staging Culver City. Six. He did six.

I think maybe if you moved to 1130, maybe he still gets some really good guess. Maybe the caliber, if you're 1130, maybe people are promoting things. Maybe some of the bigger names will show up. You won't get anybody promoting something, Mark, because the thing will be long gone. It has to be over. Yeah, it has to be everything. It's a word thing, but, you know, he scaled it down. You know, you talked about what are they going to do with the various shows,

to scale them down. He's got it down to, you know, thin reed. That's his show. Six of them in a day. It was the next day I was interviewing him. He said he apologized for being hoarse because he had taped six shows in a day. Who does that? Who can do that?

That's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have an expected timeline on when you think we will hear? year what will happen with that cold bear slot i don't have a timeline because i think they're they're still figuring out what's happening at cbs you know what i mean like uh you know what the new management's really going to expect um but i would bet a lot there's not going to be any other kind of late night show so if it's byron allen it's not byron allen it'll be like

local news maybe they'll give it back to the stations something like that i think we're looking at like a January thing or even like could this go all the way till April before we know what's replacing it? Oh, I think it'll be, well, I mean, he's going to be off the air. Oh, he's going to be off the air in May, right? May, yeah. Right. So, I mean, they may not decide to do anything in the summer, but by the fall, you would think they'd do something. Okay. So, all right. Economically, you would think that they would go to maybe back to like something like later with Bob Costas, one person interview, something very cheap, no live audience, no ban, But you can watch those shows on YouTube.

Everybody has them. You can see these people. So that just doesn't make sense anymore. You would have that on network television. It's just everything's changed. But I want to make a point because Taylor Thompson was working for them. They were perfectly happy to renew Taylor Thompson. They wanted to renew that show.

They invested a lot of money in her. Yeah, they made economic, that made economic sense that show. So they weren't abandoning late night at that point. That was not in their plan. And then she decided not to do it. And so now that goes away, and they have Colbert standing alone, and whatever they're talking about the money, whether how much of it is true or not.

And Colbert was an uncomfortable situation for them politically. They made that move. But in theory, if a Taylor-Thomason-like thing existed, they might be interested. You know, I mean, it seemed like they were interested in that. You know, she was a star, a budding star, and they kind of saw that, you know, and I think they should have seen that. And the format was whatever they wanted to make.

They changed it and they were playing with it. So I wouldn't say it's completely out of the realm of possibility that somebody there will come up with something if there's a performer that wants to do it. But as I said earlier, a lot of comics don't even want to do that anymore. And they had set it up for her. You did two days or something and then could go on the road. So I think the way it looks to me is like they just don't want to be bothered. So let's put, Byron Allen is the ultimate I don't want to be bothered.

That makes sense. The only thing I think about is that the midterms will be coming up in the fall next year and will CBS want to have some sort of late night programming covering them? Because that's when people tend to tune in to late night TV. Yes, but given Ellison's, you know, given Ellison's, you know basically prevailing views you would think he would say no i don't want to do that right i don't want to get mixed up with that um because that's going to be ferocious that that will be there'll be so much very potentially uh big news about manipulating voting and all that kind

of thing that's going to be going on it could get extremely ugly and i have a feeling they're not they're not interested in ugly even if it's funny fascinating to think about mark you have your book. Love Johnny Carson that's available now celebrating Carson's 100th birthday. You're on a book tour, publicizing the book and promoting it. So how is everything going with the book tour? And have you learned anything through all your promotion about the book? I just can't believe how many people I talk to him is Johnny. I mean, I have to remind myself constantly, the guy has been off the air for 33 years. It doesn't feel that way. The YouTube channel that Jeff Sotson, Johnny's nephew producer, it's like over a million subscribers. People just miss the guy. And it seems

like he just went off the air the other day. Yeah, I'm going to be in Chicago with their broadcasting museum, broadcast of communications on the 6th, that Thursday night. And then I'm going to be in Nebraska and Johnny's hometown of Norfolk, Nebraska. I'm going to be there on the 8th at Saturday at 1 o'clock at the Elkhorn Museum, which has lots of Johnny's artifacts.

So, yeah, I've just been in New York. I did a book thing, just signing books. And it's just, I feel like I put everything in that I wanted to. I mean, it was just a celebration. of Johnny and just really with his faults. I mean, he would talk about on the Tonight Show about his drinking and as being overly competitive. I put the

fault in the book. But I think overall, the reason it's called Love Johnny Carson, to me at least, is the 400 plus people I talked to just would tell me so many of them I love Johnny Carson. And it was very surprising. And I think it was just surprising how many people I talked to that knew

the man that just it was a different portrayal than a lot of the media for decades. made him out to be. Have you spoken to anybody on the street as you're doing book signings that have told you any interesting stories or just like, what's the reaction about it? Yeah, I mean, people constantly tell me stories where they either, they met him or they, you know, I watched with, I had somebody drive from Rhode Island to meet me in New York

that listened to my podcast. He's like, I've listened four times to every podcast you've done and all these people. But yeah, it's amazing to me when I hear some of the stories that how Carson was in private, that, like, there was somebody in Nebraska who just sent a note backstage to the Sahara Hotel and Johnny was performing. I'm from Nebraska. And Johnny's like, oh, no, have him come back and just hanging out with them. Like, he longed just for authenticity. And if somebody perceived somebody to be real and just not show business, he was really open. But just a lot of private stories of his kindness, which is reflected in the book, him saving a comedian's life from drugs

and him secretly, you know, donating all this money to people. in need. I mean, his producer, Fred Decor de Cordova went broke and died and Carson quietly sent $100,000 to Janet DeCordova, Fred's widow. I mean, it just seems from the theme in the book and what people have been telling me that they've met him and his loyalty. That was the most important thing to Carson was loyalty. And he was there for people that he expected it in return. And when he didn't get that back, it broke his heart. And that's reflected in the book. Bill, with it being Carson's 100th birthday, how do you reflect on his legacy as we wrap up our show here today? You know, you can argue he's the biggest star in the history of television.

You really can because it's 30 years, but it was 30 years that everybody in America probably saw him at least once. I mean, even if you didn't watch them, you certainly saw him. Everybody saw him. And that was one television was huge. You know, it was a completely full reach of a. America at his disposal. And so he spoke to everybody. And that can never happen again. It just won't ever happen again. So, and he was able to do it because he connected. Like, you know, I was, you know, the next generation. He was my father's generation, right? But I connected with him.

He was able to be able to be savvy what was going on. And, you know, there was just an effectiveness in comedy. I really felt like the other thing was he was an incredible comedian. Like he was, able to be funny every night. That is so hard. That is just so hard. And even when the monologue was weak, he'd find ways to save it. And, you know,

I can't ever remember watching the show and being disappointed in his performance. That just didn't happen. I agree. It's just so cool to get to talk about the guy and happy birthday, Johnny Carson. So, Mark, Bill, this was an incredible conversation here today.

I really appreciate both of you. And I think we covered almost every late-night topic that went on in the last month. This is great. Do you think there'll ever be another month like this? I don't know. Hopefully there will be so that we can have more great discussions. Thank you, John.

Thank you, Bill. This was fun. Yeah, of course. So our plan is to be back here about once a month to talk through everything that's happening in late night. To never miss anything that we have going on at late nighter, we invite you to visit our website, late nighter.com, where we have stories every single day about everything that's happening in late

night television. And of course, if you want to see Mark Malkoff's podcast that he does once a week where he interviews great guests from the late night. Night Universe, subscribe to the Late Nighter Podcast Network feed, both on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcast. Mark, you just had a great conversation with Roy Wood Jr. We got Chris Catan coming up. So a great job this season on Inside Late Nighting. Oh, thanks. It's been so much fun, and you've done a great job. I'm grateful. I appreciate that. All right, Bill. All right, Mark. Thank you so much for being with us today. And for everyone here

at Late Nighter. My name is John Schneider. And we will see you next time. Have a good one. Thank you.