Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Jon Rineman Returns Again

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Jon Rineman returns again to discuss doing standup on Fallon, nearly injuring Lorne Michaels, his departure from writing on Fallon’s Tonight Show, & his famous joke at the Seth Meyers hosted White House Correspondents Dinner. Buy Jon Rineman’s book: The Garden’s Always Greener Official Website: www.rinemania.com   Follow on IG: @rinemania Follow X/Twitter: @rinemania

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by latenighter.com. John Reindman returns today. We talk about his stand-up on Fallon, the famous joke he wrote for the Seth Myers hosted 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner. We start the episode where we left off with John sharing the details of his final months working for Fallon's Tonight Show back in 2018. Now it's time to go inside late night. John Ryman, thanks for coming back.

Thanks for having me, Mark. Okay, so you are at dinner with Amy, and she is, is she the head writer? Is that, or the producer? What is she doing? She is now going to be the head writer. So when Miles... This is at Fallon's Tonight Show.

Phyllis Tonight Show. So there was some turnover, personnel changes in the fall of 2016 where Josh Lieb left the show and then Deech, Mike DeSenzo, that's his nickname is Deech. And then Jim Bell

came in? No, this was before Jim Bell. So this was... Oh, before Jim Bell, okay, please continue. So this is a Mike DeSenzo, Gerard Bradford, Katie Hawkmeyer all become like a three-headed showrunner. I don't know. I truthfully don't know what I've only heard rumors and

you know, as Bruce's says, you know, I don't subscribe to rumor and innuendo. So for me, it's hearsay and scuttlebut. I don't know about that. But something went on where somehow Miles was unhappy or someone was unhappy with him. I truthfully don't know because I was, you know me. I was always buried in the jokes in my own head, listen to the same music every morning and get myself ready. an insane person just sitting there writing jokes about Chris Christie being fat and hardly spending any of the money. It's just all that mattered to me was being the best of that thing.

So I don't know what was said or whatever, but some kind of falling out went on, I think, and then Miles ended up leaving the show in early 2017. And even before he left, he phased out of being head writer and then was kind of more of a backstage producer for the last, I think, two or three months when he was there. And we butted heads during that time because I felt like he was taking his anger out on me. I let loose all the anger I'd head towards him for years just because I resented having someone. We all resent having someone in front of us at first. When you work for someone like Jimmy and there's a miles there to be sort of the filter,

everyone resents the filter. That's such a difficult job to have. It's a hard thing to do. Because everyone thinks, Jimmy's such a nice guy. Jimmy and I always get along when we see each other at the holiday party. Jimmy and I always riff and have a good time in the meeting. I bet if I had Miles's job and I was dealing with Jimmy, I could do it better because I bet I'm smarter than him and things wouldn't be so hard.

Because we don't know what it's like. We don't know how hot the sun can get until you're flying near the sun. So we butted heads and regretfully didn't even really talk. We did have one kind of sweet moment in Florida. His last week that Miles was working there as a producer was in Orlando. We went and did a week of shows down there, and he and I happened to be leaving the hotel at the same time, walk over the park. And we had a really good, like, 15-minute conversation, kind of just catching up on

not speaking, really, for the last three or four or five months while he was deciding to leave the show. And we've spoken since then, and I let him know how much I appreciate him. he changed my life. He believed in me. He defended me. I don't think anyone defended me more than 80 miles at that show. And I just didn't appreciate it and didn't really know it at the time. But long story short, he's gone completely by April 2017. On April 10th, my daughter's born on April 17th. I'm in the Miles chair. I'm the guy that goes in the green room. I'm the guy that runs rehearsal. I'm the guy that's taken bullets, so to speak, because Jonathan Adler, it's not his

personality. He didn't really want to do it. Arthur Meyer, uh, no, he's more of a, he's pacifist more so than I'm the one that's like, you got to speak up. And so I didn't, like I said, it was just me and Jimmy. And God, it was, it was tough for the first two months. It really, really was tough. Why? The reason it was tough is because I had a new baby at home and a wife that needed help taking care of that baby, and I wasn't doing a good enough job on that end. And you were not sleeping. You're three to four hours of sleep. No, but I was projecting, but I was projecting on, yes, Jimmy was difficult, but I was blaming all my problems on him. I was, when I would talk to Deach and Gerard, I would complain and make it out to be like Jimmy's fault.

Like, Jimmy's too difficult. Jimmy's too hard on jokes or whatever. The fact of the matter is, I was not being a good husband. I was an absentee father, and I was taking out aggression head. And at both ends, the aggression was coming out. The work aggression was coming out at home. The home aggression was coming out at work. And I was blaming all my problems on, like, you know, one or two people being difficult when I needed to get my shit together.

And so finally we get to a place where Jimmy and I, we finally had a fight. We had it, and it was on email, so I still have it. And I laugh at it sometimes because it's two passive aggressive Catholics trying to have an argument. And it's really, it's like, of course it's on email, because we're not going to say it to each other's face. What was it about? It was about, there was a day that Patty, Harrison was on and she was there to do a correspondent bit when Trump said he didn't want transgender people in the military. And it was very last minute. Patty didn't have any time to write this

bit. I mean, we all know Patty Harris. If you get Patty Harrison four hours notice, she can come up with something great. But this was, I think they gave her like an hour, like to have rehearsal ready. So that means she's got to go into get at wardrobe. She got to get hair and makeup. She's got to figure out some like what she's going to say so deech comes into my office and says you know hey we need a few jokes for patty for her correspondent bit or it's not going to be long enough can you give us your three best or four best jokes from the monologue on this story so it's one of the rare times in my life where i'm a team player and i say sure whereas the smarter thing would have been saying Deach, these are the only jokes I got, you know, but I said, sure, thinking someone might cover for me

and explain it to Jim, okay, well, that doesn't happen. And we go into rehearsal, we have one shuddy joke, one straight monologue joke on this story, and it bombs. And then Jimmy's looking at me and tears me up. It was the one time, the one time he really yelled at me was that day. The one time, folks, if you're listening, and he was furious. And he said, biggest goddamn story out there and you don't you only have one joke on it and no one speaks up no one says this is what happened so i take i take the hit can i just interject real quick sure almost every late night host has been like this with the writer at some point i mean i've i've known people that worked at all of them this does oh yeah happen their name is on the show please

continue well i will i will respectfully say i have heard from people that jay was never like this Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jay is Jay. He's the unicorn, yeah. But I will, we'll say that this was, Fallon did not yell a lot, wasn't a yeller. This was just, was it, this was it isolated. He would, he, well, like I said, he would yell at you in print, sort of that way. And so it was up to you how you wanted to interpret it. You could, you could be offended, which I was sort of at first, or you can say, what is he saying to me here?

Not how is he saying it? What is he asking for? And just get to the meat of what he's. asking for but the one but the one time you know these these stories that go around about like him yelling i got yelled out one time in nine years in nine years well well two times if you count the time the kickball went through my legs when we were playing the daily show at kickball i got yelled out a little bit for that i got called bill buckner and i deserved it i got the reference but the one time the one time i got i really got reams on this day so but i felt it was unfair so i sent him an email so i want

I just want you to know what happened today. And I explained the whole thing about I had jokes for you. These were the three jokes. Remember, they were patties. They all killed. They were supposed to be monologue jokes, you know, blah, blah, blah. And we went back and forth. It was like an eight email exchange over the course of an hour.

And the next day, Kelly comes in and she goes, hey, Jimmy's not going to read jokes anymore in the morning. This is Kelly Powers Jimmy's assistant. Jimmy's now producer, yeah. Producer, yes, now producer. Jimmy's not going to read jokes anymore. And I'm like, all right, who's it going to read jokes anymore? to be because I'm thinking I'm getting demoted or whatever and she goes you are and I go what to mean she goes and then I email Jimmy and I go what is going on here and he goes you're going to

pick every single joke I'm going to let you pick every single thing you want everything you want rehearsed I will rehearse it's all to you let's try it out that's a lot of pressure we killed that day we walked away from rehearsal with like 28 29 jokes when you only needed 15 we did it again the next day we killed it was good and bad It's where I fell back in love with the show. It's where I earned Jimmy's respect. It's where I sort of became the champion, so to speak. Like if we're going to use a wrestling term,

I was the one wearing the belt at that point of all the writers. Because, you know, Ryman's the one that, you know, look at Ryman. He's got it all figured out. Like every day, it's great. But I became even more of an absentee father. I became even more of a because I wanted to keep that street going. I wanted to be like undefeated. And so that's how.

it was for much of 2017. And we had, I'm damn proud of the work we did. We had some really strong monologues. We were up against it. We were losing for the first time to Colbert, but we started to crawl up. We started winning the demo again. Our monologue, as Gerard pointed out to me, went from an average length of, and this isn't Miles's fault. This is just because there was all this turmoil going on. But towards the end of his regime, Gerard said we're doing about three minutes of mono. That was it. That was the average mono was three minutes. minutes under me and Adler, Jonathan Adler was doing the sketch bits that would go in the mono, but the mono was now seven minutes. So we had grown the mono. Lauren was happy with it.

Everyone, we were getting quick. And I started to feel like we might come back. And Jimmy's mom died. And that was such, like, to this day, you know, that's a genuine moment, obviously. I mean, like, I remember when Jimmy had, especially with my dad being sick and knowing that I was going to have to face it soon, Jimmy having to give that on-air tribute to his mom. That's probably the most courageous thing I've ever seen someone doing comedy. That was an unbelievable moment. I wanted to run out there and say, stop this. Like, you know, let this guy greet this, but he did it and he took him a couple takes,

but he nailed that and still was ready to go. Like, what jokes do we have? Like the next day, like he was such a gamer. Then all of a sudden, after it seems like we've, you know, we're cohesive. and everyone's getting stuff on from the monologue and we have a system. No one knows the personal problems I'm having because I haven't shared them with anyone yet. They didn't know that my wife and I were sleeping in different rooms for several months. They didn't know that I was going to a neurologist because I had TMJ and migraines and it was dizzy before the stroke and everything.

You were only eating like a meal a day, a meal and a half a day and you're doing like nine coffees and you just not take three to four hours of sleep in night you're not taking care of yourself right yeah i was it was yeah i was really i had abused myself and i was yeah i was taking a supplement shall we call it to stay awake and uh you know and be funny and everything in addition to the coffee and all that stuff uh not cocaine or anything like that but like you know maybe going to one doctor and going to another doctor and the doctors didn't know about each other that sort of thing yeah that was going on then Amy's back all of a sudden. And she's back and she's saying, why don't you quit?

And this is when I'm like, man, this is when I thought I just figured this out. Like we're getting ready to buy a house, you know? So what happened was finally in February, there's only so much, and I, there's a lot I can't say, but what I can say is in February, we were not seeing eye to eye, Amy and I. There were a couple of incidents where we really had it out with each other. And it was all very surprising to me because, like I said, I thought Amy and I got along. I thought we were friends.

She came to my wedding. She gave me a gift. We wrote a pilot together, but I was not in her plans. There was just something about she had just decided that I was not part of the program. And so at the same time this was going on, my dad had Alzheimer's and the medicine he'd been taking for Alzheimer's stopped working. There's about a two-year period that the medicine he was on works, and we hit two years. And all of a sudden, he couldn't remember which was right and left, and he couldn't drive anymore. And so that was going on.

I was starting to get sort of the scary ultimatums from Rebecca. And some people were trying to help out and saying, dude, I think this is serious here, man. I don't think she's fooling around. And also, I felt like all I can describe it is that every day, it felt like I'd hit my head. there was one day where I still remember this. I was so tired that it felt like in one eye it was night time and I was going to sleep. And then the other eye was morning and Rebecca was putting the baby down to, you know, try to wake me up, you know, because I was Sadie in the morning before I went to work.

So Rebecca could do errands and do some things and stuff. And I didn't know, I couldn't, I honestly didn't know if it was nighttime or daytime. time. I was so tired. And so I went in and said to someone there who was in power that, hey, this is what's going on. And I, you know, we had talked for a while about because I did not take paternity leave that maybe someday I could do with. Some people had done at the show, they had taken a hiatus. Arthur Meyer went and did a TV pilot for a little while. So he left the show for a bit. And he came back, a conquering hero. Albertina Rizzo went and did a movie.

She wrote on a movie for a bit in Toronto, I believe, and she got to come back. It was fine. People had been doing it. And I'm looking at it. I'm like, all right, well, Amy, you got your head writer and you got your people and everyone's doing great. And you know who the story is going to be. You know, it's going to be Trump. So maybe now's the time to do it.

So there was some reluctance and they finally agreed. And then they said, hey, at the last minute, one change here. You need to write from home, though. And I'm like, what do you mean? I go, that's not the deal. The deal is that I'm going to go away for a bit, like I think six weeks. You can have my salary. You can freeze my contract and everything and my non-compete and everything and all that.

I'll give you the money. I just need to go away. No, for you to keep your job, we need you to keep writing from home. So it's a totally pointless thing. It's totally point. Like, I might as well just kept going to the office, but by now it's already official that I'm going to be taking time away. So I'm away from the office. And all I have to do is write jokes. I don't have to read anyone's stuff. I don't have to organize the mono or the stories or anything.

I don't even have to watch the news. I just got to see what we're being asked to write about and just write jokes. I'm murdering. Mark, I'm getting like 20 jokes a week. Like for the first time, you're like, I'm just because I had nothing else to do. And I'm just sitting there. But at the same time, my baby's crawling up and I'm picking her up like she's a cat and giving her back to my wife. I can't. I'm writing my jokes. It's totally pointless that I'm home. It's worse. Like I might as well be in the office. Like it's stupid that I'm home, you know, doing any of this. On top of that, I'm not there, right? Amy is. And the monologues are great because they're getting four or five jokes a day that they weren't getting before for me. Who do you think looks good in that

that scenario, the guy who's not there or the new head writer that's there to say, yeah, we really killed it today. Of course, she looks good. So I start to realize this a little bit too late that I think I screwed myself a little bit here. Like, I think I thought that I was going to leave and that she was going to flound her and I was going to come back in again and be undefeated and never have any problem in the office. So I get a call. I get a call. on a Thursday that from the person that said I could take the leave and they say, hey, so you're not going to come back. And I go, am I fired?

Because like we had talked a lot of others. And they go, no, we're going to pick up your option, but we're going to take away your title. And you're just going to write jokes and you can't come into the office anymore. And I say, what did I do? And I, you know, and they go, this is, you know, this is what Amy wants. And to their credit, they were not pleased with it. Like there was some hesitancy and there was some, I'm sorry to have to tell you this to it. And some, I don't necessarily agree with this to it.

But that was it. And I sat on it for a couple days. And, then I talked to this person again and I said you know I really want to come back like I think we can make this work we set a time tentatively to talk like maybe a week after that fact but what the the ultimate moment for me that I wish had not happened was there was one night where I decided to go into the office and get something get a picture of me and Sadie that I wanted to make sure I had so I could set it up on my desk wherever I'm going to be like I guess we're I don't know if I'm going to be in the office I don't know what's going on but I wanted to make sure I had this picture and I go into 30 Rock and I go into my office and all my stuff is gone they packed up my desk they packed up my pictures a snow globe a mouse pad it's all gone and someone else has moved

in to that desk. And at no point had they said, we're doing this. At no point had they called and asked my permission. And I lost it. And it was like, you know, in my world, it was like walking in on your girlfriend cheating on you or your wife cheating on you. There was a board with photos of all the riders. And you see this board in your picture for the first time in nine years, isn't there it's not there yeah and adler was you know i mean he still had his job he's and i think it just his picture now just said head monologue writer not co-head monologue writer whereas we each had made sure it said co-head monologue writer before and i wish i hadn't done that i wish i hadn't gone in that night because if i had i don't know when it was done i don't know whose decision it was to do

it. I did get an, you know, an apology from someone there, but never from any of the people close to that decision. So I don't know what happened. But all I know is I left to get myself, I left, I for once did the right thing and said, I'm going to step away from a possible argument. I'm going to step away from a conflict. I don't know why Amy doesn't want me here. But I didn't think about, but in the moment, you're always living, and just monologue writer, you're living day to day. You're living current. And you don't stop and think about all the times you were rude to people when you were first starting out. You don't think about all the times you rubbed people the wrong way and didn't apologize for it. In your head, you're thinking, God, this past year

and a half, I've been on the best behavior. I've been respectful. I've done a good job. No one's going to know that. There's no like, I mean, now there's, you know, late night, or maybe you guys right now, like, Reimann, no longer, an asshole. But there was back then, there was nothing where people could say, oh, this guy's actually really turned his life around and he's really got a different attitude. She had all that baggage to play with. And just in that moment, I knew it was all over, you know, and I just thought of all the years I put into the job and how much I, and I, like, everything flashed like in that moment as I'm looking around the office, trying to figure out, like, wears all my stuff. And then when it finally hits me, I'm thinking about that interview when I

walked in wearing this jacket and tie. I'm thinking about going to kinkos and sending jokes into Jay. And I'm thinking about telling Rebecca, I got the job. And it just all of a sudden it's gone. And I lost it. I had a breakdown at that moment where I had that was the first time I had a panic attack. In 30 Rock? I got the hell out of it. As soon as I figured out what was going. on. I power walked out of there like a scene from a movie or something, you know, where someone catches someone cheating or someone realizes they've been, you know, they did a bad investment or, you know, one of those dramatic act two scenes. I just walked down to the subway and, uh, on the subway and on the path train,

I just had a massive panic attack because all I could think was, you know, you're someone who used to write for Jimmy. Allen now. Like, you know, it's like they don't want you back. You know, you were thinking you could sweet talk your way back into the office and have things be the way they were and maybe get along with Amy. Clearly, that all your stuff is gone and your pictures down. You're out of sight, out of mind. And the people in charge have stopped fighting for you and they don't want you back. And look, man, if I had it to do over again, at the time I had management, I had an agent and a manager. and I just said, you guys take care of this.

Like, you guys get me out of this deal and whatever. It's fucking stupid. Not what I should have done. What should you have done? I should have contacted Deach and Gerard directly and said, hey, I don't like that this happened. And for me to, like, I need to talk to Jimmy. Like, that would have been my thing.

Or I would have tried any way I could to talk to Jimmy. That's what I should have done to begin with. I mean, like, I should have, out of respect, I don't. didn't want to go over anyone's head, but when things were getting untenable and I was not feeling well and things were not going well. You did not know that you had a mini stroke for a long time. I mean, this was, was it for a whole year that you didn't know that you had a mini stroke or close to that? Two years. And it was, I had a lot of issues, but I thought they were all met. I thought I had a mental breakdown. I mean, I did. But I thought it was all mental. And it wasn't until two years later that,

but by then it was past the time that they can really find out what happened to you but they were just they found some evidence and all that and it runs in the family on my mom's side so it made sense but I should have just said I should have grabbed Jimmy one day in the green in the cue card room and just said hey can I talk to you for a minute and I should have just said I got to go away you know like I'm not feeling well and I know that knowing Jimmy that He known, if I had said to him, Rebecca and I were having trouble, that would have been enough. And I think he would have said, go do what you have to do. But I played cute and I played egotistical and I thought I could outsmart Amy, just like I seemingly outsmarted everyone else.

But you're out of sight, out of mind. What I should have done after I found an office like that, I should have, especially nowadays, when you're older, you know, like now that I'm older and I have more perspective. I've worked other places. You know, I've had other jobs since then. And I've never had any moment that heavy. But I've had other moments where I found out I was getting screwed or I found out someone was lying to me or I found out someone was just crazy, you know, and I had to deal with them.

And I just took a deep breath. And that's from going to therapy. You know, you reframe it. You, you compartmentalize when you can. Sometimes I'll just, I'll go for a walk. I'll go for a mile walk. I'll think, all right, how are we going to figure this out? And you come back and you keep doing the job.

And I think if I were mature then, like I was now, I would have said, that's a real thing you guys did. But it's pretty irresponsible as someone with a wife and child to just walk away from a job this great. So where do we go from here? It might have been like, you know, like, can I just get an apology for that? And can we just kind of talk this through? Because, Mark, there are many times. two or three times that I almost went back to the show. One time in 2019, where I had an interview

went so far where Jim Bell called me up. And we had like a phone interview about me coming back. And it was about me reproving myself and all that. But then in the two days between I'm supposed to be getting my deal on a Thursday night. And our phone call was on a Tuesday morning. That Thursday, a big hit piece about Jim Bell came out. That was the New York Post. Yeah, page six. And the deal was off. He was basically like, I, you know, I don't really have the pull right now to justify bringing you in with all this history and everything. And, but I was going, I was supposed to come back. Like, had that story not come out, I probably would have been back at the show. And I really wish I had because, you know, I was in such a good place at that point. I had been through therapy. I had just taught at Emerson, which reinvigorated me. And, and I was really good at writing again. But. again, like I tell people, if you're a jerk to people earlier in your career and you're snarky and you're not mature, uh, that adds up. And look, there are some people who have been that way and waltzed right back on in to the Fallon show. You know, they were given a second or sometimes

third or sometimes fourth chance. And whenever they need a gig, they get it back. Again, to use the wrestling analogy. I'm more on the Randy Savage or CM Punk side of things where it's like, yeah, he's the guy that's not coming back. Like, you know, I know CM Punk did so I can't use that analogy anymore, but Vince was gone. You know what I'm saying? It was like it was a, it's a different regime. And so it's like, there's just that thing. And I get, you know, it's funny. I'll have, I hear from interns and stuff. I get messages through my website and they'll be like, hey, I just interned at Fallon. And, you know, I heard all these things. things about you and I wrote, what happened?

You know, and I never really tell them, I don't want to, like, bog them down with all that, but they always say, like, why can't you go back, you know? And I'm just like, well, a lot's gone on since then. But, I mean, really, I would say until about 2021, even though I've been gone, I was still pretty loyal to that show. Like, it really is when it's like with anybody, it's like, when you start hearing rumors about yourself, like the rumors in my end were that I got in a physical fight with Jimmy. That never happened.

There was a rumor that I cheated on my wife with an assistant. Never happened. There were rumors that I had said or done certain things to Amy that never happened. And so at that point, to defend your character, especially when it's costing you jobs, other jobs in the business and in life, you got to defend yourself. And I know they don't love me telling this story. I'm not saying anything disparaging about them. I'm just telling exactly what happened.

But yeah, it's like, all I know is Jimmy and I ran into each other in 2022 at a comedy festival. And it was when I was doing morning radio. And he agreed to do an interview for my show. And we did it right there. And man, it was like no time had passed at all. It was just so funny. And he was so great.

And we were just ribbing each other just like we would in a writer's meeting. And he was that dark kind of funny. You know, like he was at the off the cuff. honest Jimmy funny. But that was it. I was the last time I heard from him. And, um, you know, that was, uh, that was it. You mentioned your AMA from, I think that was 2020 in November, that you were on a podcast and you, you said these are, I believe your words that you took a cheap shot, a joke at Jimmy's expense. I listened to that podcast interview today. Did that joke get back to Jimmy that you said? I heard it did. And I heard he did. And I heard he did.

didn't appreciate it. And I think that was where, that's where things started to go south and did you apologize. Did you feel like you had to apologize? I did when he took a shot at me subtly in the show. Oh, what was the shot? How could you tell? He did the rhyme and impression. He did the err character and then made a little comment after the fact that I was like, oh, you know, that was a pitch. He threw that pitch over my head, you know, like, were you watching the show or did you hear about it? I was watching it. I was watching it. I was watching it. Because I thought he did the best at home shows of anybody during the COVID lockdown to the point where I emailed Gavin and said, man, maybe you guys should just do this. Like I was like, maybe just quit the Tonight Show, do the Jimmy Fallon show.

Let Malaney or, you know, that was a bad choice. It was before John went through all his stuff and conquered all the things he had to conquer. But I just said maybe let Malaney or someone, whoever, Amber, take a, you know, let them get the tonight show. let's set do it you do this at home show or jimmy's great and i'm watching the show one night and there i'm like oh there's the rhyming impression and there were a couple other things like that that felt very subtle personal i knew him well enough to know like oh this you know this this this came up then where you know things really kind of fell out was they were just doing a ton of dementia jokes in the monologue like every joke about biden or trump was just an all

timeers joke. And I had emailed without success a couple of people there to just say like, hey, you know, is there any way you could, you know, these jokes are kind of hurtful towards, you know, it's like I think there's other angles for Donald Trump that you can take other than making fun of disabled people. And this is why I'm, this is why I'm saying this to you. So you understand, you know, it's, it is a subjective thing for me. And then he just doubled down and he did even more. And I don't know if that was him. I don't know if that was a head monologue writer or whatever.

Immaturely, I took it personally because when you have a narcissistic personality, which I was born with and have had to fight through therapy and all sorts of things and life experiences the past few years to kind of beat, you think you're always the star of the movie. And so, you know, if you're watching a monologue one time and there's three straight jokes and one is about unemployed people, the next one's about single dads, and the next one's a dementia joke, you're the crazy person, you're Charles Manson hearing your name and Helter Skelter, you know what I mean? And so that was just my immaturity. But yeah, but there was other things

too. Like it was just like certain people were promoted, certain people were brought back that I thought had dicey reputations just like me. And I just felt, I felt left out. It felt unfair, you know, especially when they knew how bad I wanted to come back. And so that was it, you know, and that was kind of the last, you know. But he did agree to come back and do an interview with you, which was. He did. Yeah, it was great. Were you surprised?

He came over to me. I thought, you know, we had, there had been some business stuff like there is when anyone leaves a show. There is some business stuff that has to be settled. And like when anyone leaves a show, it gets, you know, contentious and contentious. and cantankerous or whatever you want to call it. I did not want him to have to be really a part of it, but of course, he was.

And I thought he was going to blow right by me. I was like, this is a guy that I have some not so nice recent history with from a business standpoint, not from a personal standpoint, not from a, you know, if you read that AMA, there are a lot of questions I skip. And there's a lot of stuff that I maneuver out of respect. because, you know, it's none of people's effing business at certain times, or because I genuinely just don't know, which is probably the case in a lot of situations.

You know, what's he like when he goes, well, I don't fucking know, man. I was at home writing my jokes every night, you know, so I had plausible deniability. But he came up to me and gave me the biggest hug possible. Then we kind of looked at each other again, like, oh, my, my God, are we doing this? And he gave me another big hug. and it was awesome man it was it was such a cool thing and that says a lot about him it really does i mean it does but it's like i i wish i wish we were able to maintain a friendship beyond that just because i feel like like i said in nine years we had one fight we had one real

fight and we made up you know we figured out that it wasn't really that we had each kind of been left in the dark about certain things it was just about a monologue joke And other than that, it was great. He was great to me. And when it's left to just me and him to figure things out, it's fine. Now, look, man, I don't have any eyes on going back to the Tonight Show and on any designs on going back to late night. I think I'm healthier without it. I think the TV that I'm producing now is healthier and it's more rewarding in many ways.

But it's a shame that like when something happens, like when there's a Beach Boys thing in the news or there's a wrestling thing in the news, it's a bummer to not be able to email Jimmy. You go, what do you think about this and make jokes and just kind of go back and forth for a few minutes? You know, it's a bummer that when he comes to New Hampshire and he's just a couple hours away from me in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, wherever happened to be at the time that we can't just hang out. and you know because I come from we've talked a lot about this and the other times I was on for all his faults and holy shit are there many but you know one thing one good thing if you're to say good any good thing about Vince McMahon was his attitude of never say never and his attitude that with the exception of Randy and we don't know why I guess I'm Randy in this situation people are allowed to either come back or maybe we can partner up and work on something

else. Dude, it'd be great to get with him and work on something else, you know, even if it was, I would do a whole show about me being an asshole writer, you know, I mean, that was in the air for a little while with Alec Baldwin. That was, after I did stand up

one time, he kind of caught wind of who I was. And that's always been kind of an interesting premise. And I don't mind it. Like, I don't mind Barry in myself and talking about, you know, where I fucked up and all that stuff. But at the same time, man, I, like, you talk about, yeah, I've taken shots. I've made my jokes. You know, I've made jokes about Jimmy. I've made

little quips. But that was me projecting and taking out my anger about my life and my own mistakes on him. And so it's like there gets to a point where you realize, yeah, I'm not divorced because of Jimmy Fallon. You know, I'm not sick because of Jimmy Fallon. Or I'm not, you know, trying to find my way in the world because of this. It's like, no, it's because of you. It's because of who you are. And since I took on that responsibility and took accountability for all that stuff, I would say it started that 10 or 11 months ago,

as the end of 2020, is when I really stood up and started saying, what do I need to do to make things right with certain people? That anger went away. That's fantastic. And so if anyone, if anyone from the show is listening in, boy, I bet they are. Um, you know, I apologize. I apologize for, you know, I know it's been a difficult time for them. And I know that at times I've poured gasoline on that fire. And I know it got real old. I know at first maybe it was a little bit cute that Ryman was out of the woodwork and talking some smack and defending himself. But it's been tough for them. I know I empowered other people to run with it. I've been quoted certain places, both in,

and out of context when people were trying to make him look bad. And that was just me being immature. I apologize. God knows what's going to happen and life throws your curveballs. And so, you know, for all I know, I hope it's not this way. I really hope it's not this way. But six months for now, we could be not talking again. But when I apologize to Rebecca for the way I'd been as a husband and bringing work home and all that and she accepted the apology that was a life-changing moment for me like that really it was like holy shit it was like and then doing stuff the three of us as a family again and then even getting coffee just the two of us it's like that fucking seemed impossible just a year ago like that was like god that's no way that

will ever happen you know it was almost like you know we were told by lawyers not to let it happen you know like stay away from each other you know don't give anyone anything to work with that was a real wake up call for me and when i started approaching life that way and taking responsibility for what i can control you know i already thought i had gotten through all that when i had rebounded and had other jobs and done other things i thought i was quote okay i thought i had lived it but when you're still having work dreams about a place you don't work you got to sort that out you know you you got to talk to people and I have I'm not going to mention the show but I still have bad dreams and it's like they haven't happened in maybe about a month but I was having at least

really two to a week from a place and I can't and I still have it I still have issues I can't it's been hard to let go I want I really want to I want to no I just had one the other day I had a I had a dream that I think I was trying to get the rehearsal monologue or something organized and oh that was another thing is towards the end we were on a google doc and it dude is ridiculous it was like amy and i were both in there at the same time trying to edit the same thing and it was like it was so it's so larry sanders dude it was like i was back to say it was so it was such a like you don't fucking you know like me trying to type it before she can delete it and then i see it the cursor come up and go the way ah you know just like like it but i had a dream about

that the other night that I still had that nightmare and I woke up and it was just like, oh, I was like, no, dude, you're, you're about to start, you're about to start working on another TV thing. You're getting your masters. Like, things are good with Rebecca's chill, you know. That's great. What TV thing are you doing? If you can talk about it. I can't really talk about it yet. But it's a more, it's definitely in the more brighter side of the road sort of realm. I'm happy to hear that. And it's producing, which I'm super excited about. which I've never really gotten to do and do some remotes and do some stuff like that. And, you know, we'll see how it goes.

I mean, like I said, for, you know, for all I know, they might go and say, man, you're too comedy for this, you know, but I'm really, really looking forward to it and very grateful, you know, learning that new skill, so to speak. That's fantastic. I do have a couple follow questions. The first thing is when you had that dinner with Amy, was it later that night that you had the mini stroke on the same night? Yeah, and I didn't realize that.

until like two years later. Like I was going back. I did this thing in therapy. It's called EMDR therapy. And it's when you're almost hypnotized. You follow this little blinking cursor across your computer screen or whatever. Or if you're in the office, they have these like clickers or it makes you have like REM sleep, but you're awake.

So you're basically in the moment again. And that's when the whole passing out on the train incident came back. and I remembered the night because I remembered that Rebecca and Sadie were up in Massachusetts. They weren't home. I came home by myself and I put things together and then I went on my email and found eight email drafts to Adler that night and like five of them said the same thing. It was like me forgetting I started to write an email, you know? They were all just like, it was like, hey, for tomorrow.

and it was like different wording of the same idea and never sent like it was like i kept clicking out and starting like i don't know what i was doing when i first got home don't remember much of that night and then i somehow found the email from amy about like hey let's meet at bill's burgers and i saw the date and i went holy shit that's the day like it was january 8th it was that monday night it just goes to show you that if you're because i wasn't that like Like, I was disappointed that she didn't want me around. I was disappointed that she had other questions and stuff that they'll stays between me and her. Nothing inappropriate, just stuff about the show and different ideas that I found questionable personally.

But I wasn't, like, panicked. Like, I wasn't freaking out. It's just everything boiled over that night. It was just a matter of, I do remember I didn't really eat my dinner. Like, I got, no, it was Bill's Burger, so I got a burger. so I got a burger and I had like half of it, which is very unusual for me. I usually eat the whole thing,

but I didn't have much of an appetite after I had been asked to leave the show. I was like, huh, I don't know about that. And then from not eating and then the stress and being tired. And I do remember that day, I did not feel well at work. I do remember thinking to myself, man, for having two weeks off for Christmas

and having a really good break and having a really nice time with Rebecca and seeing friends and going to Celtics games. I feel like shit. I remember feeling that day, I was talking to Stephen Levinson as one of the writers. And I was like, I just feel like,

because he had a big day that he had some good jokes. I was like, man, it's good thing you had some stuff because I had nothing today. You know, I was just flat for some reason. But it was just, I tell people now,

I'm like, if you're not feeling well and things are off, you got to do a check. You got to do the check engine. When did the WWE, the four of you, when you went to ringside, Was that after or before the Amy dinner?

That was two weeks later. That was Monday the 22nd of 2018. And by that point, Jimmy wasn't really, yeah, he wasn't really talking. I remember the three of us were waiting for Gerard in the Q card room to go. And we were eating McDonald's or something. And I remember me, Amy, and Jimmy sat and I was thinking to myself, God, it's weird that we went five minutes and no one talked. I was like, that's never how we wrote a pilot the three of us together. You know, this is really weird.

But again, I didn't, I wasn't really piecing things together at that point. Can you tell us the story about how you almost injured Lauren Michaels? Yeah, sure. One day there was a day, well, I did injure Lauren Michaels. There was a day where I would read cue cards. So I would sit in the back with Steve King and Roman Erbanski. Kyle and Soda or whoever it happened to be at the time. And I would read the cards.

I would proof them. And then once they were all done, I'd hand them to Steve or Roman, and they'd walk them into the Q card room, and then Jimmy would read them with Miles there. This is before I'm in the Q card room, because Miles is still at the show. And one day, we had a couple late jokes, I think. There was like a late breaking story or something, and I had to bring them in mid-read. so Jimmy was already and that happened every now and then and he was always cool about it everything and I brought them you know I'd bring them in and here you go whatever so one day I go there

and I go knock on the door I always knocked on the door because I knew it was a heavy door no answer and I just first in like Kramer because I'm trying to get these cue cards in and then just like you hear the loud of like a hard door at a TV studio hitting something and then like the sud like the sud on the floor and I look around the room and I see Q card guy I see Gavin I see Miles I see there's Jimmy there's Lieb there's Hockmeyer there's Higgins oh shit

there's one person that I don't see and then I hear from in front of me and I look and Lorne is like head first on the carpet he is like he's trying to get up but like he's his head is still down like he's that far like you know when you're trying to push yourself up but you're and i look around the room and dude i just fucking ran i ran i hear oh and then higgins kind of stuff for me he goes well you're right in front of the door and i just dropped the cards and i run and i go back to my desk and I sat there I think I stayed until 7 p.m.

Just because I was like, if I'm going to get fired, like I'll take it. I'll take it like a man. Nothing happens. And I just go into Miles's office. And I'm like, hey,

and he goes, you're not fired. Like, that was all he said. And I went, okay, good. What a relief.

Yeah, yeah, it was like, and then he's like, he was blocking the door. Like, don't worry about it. But like,

dude, I hit him right on the, elbow like right and I could feel for that too because I hate when people bump my elbow man that kills me and so like but uh yeah knocked them over but they got me back years later and they cleaned out my office no I'm kidding I'm kidding but you did stand up twice on Fallon and I do want to mention you started in Boston Rick Jenkins right uh-huh comedy studio yeah you're at the comedy studio Rick was Rick Jenkins has been very supportive of the Carson podcast and myself and so you got to do the show uh Fallon show you did the

1230 show, which I know you mentioned went really, really well. And then you did the Tonight Show where it was a little bit more challenging. There were more restrictions that were a place. Yeah. That's true. They both went, they both ended up going really well. And I think that there were better jokes in the Tonight Show set. But the late night set was just, again, it was Disneyland. Like that whole 1230 show, I didn't know how good I had it, you know, like none of us did. Like, that was just such a dream job and a dream show. Gosh, that was so much fun. The Tonight Show set, it all felt like it happened so quick, too, like getting the set, getting it ready, getting it on, like being out there standing there with the roots on one side and Jason Siddakis, like I showed

my daughter. I was like, see, I did stand up in front of Ted Lassow, you know, like it was very impressive. It just felt so cool. Like it was like being on a roller coaster. The Tonight Show felt like dragging a boulder. Like it was really, it was, I found out so early that I was going be doing it like too early that there was too much time to craft the set and it felt like it dragged and I got tired of rehearsing it and I got tired of running it and there's different rules like in late night I make a joke about Coles on the tonight show you can't mention any brands anything that has to do with brands like I wanted to do a thing about having sketch your shoes nope you're not not allowed to do that so I can't do that one the funniest story from the tonight show set was I had a pretty

innocuous joke about Pope Francis and it was about he was such a nice Pope I think he was trying to get fired from Pope like I think he was just being he was like hey want to get divorced go for it you know like it was just like he's doing on now everyone's had that joke and angle ever since but I was kind of the first I'm Catholic I was sort of there and I get called in Josh Lee and he said you got to cut your Pope joke and I go you're kidding me because it was my closer and I go I go why And I go, because it's religious, people are going to get upset. And he goes, no, he's like, we might have the Pope on the show. And we almost did.

That's how big Fallon. That's how big the Tonight Show was, was that he was a 50-50 guest when he was visiting New York. And there was going to be in the studio and everything. And so it's like when I make that, I think I actually said to Josh, what is the Pope coming on the show? And he goes, yeah, maybe. I'm like, what? And he goes, but he even said, he goes, this, the Tonight Show. It's, like, it's, it's, it's, it's awesome that you're doing this,

but there are a lot of rules now that, you know, you can't, you know, and he's like, I went through your late night. He's like, the mannequin joke, you probably couldn't do that, like, you know, on, on the 1130 show. Yeah, it's, but also that, you know, the thing I regret about that set was, it was so personal. It was so autobiographical. And whereas the late night set was very observational and very evergreen. And it's just everyone can have fun. Whereas the Tonight Show said it was a lot about like, hmm, maybe I should have asked my parents if I should do this joke.

Maybe I should have asked Rebecca if I could do this and, you know, this friend, maybe I should have run it by. You know, there was too much, it got a little too, a little too raw. So I like the 1230 set a lot more. And shout out to Mark Lepis, who a great producer who produced that 1230 set and made some really good calls

and some good advice stuff to leave, good advice on things to cut. I do want to mention with him. I don't know him, but the one thing I really liked about the 1230, I don't know if I want to say I like it, but I thought it was very, very interesting is he was a former publicist, correct? Yeah, still does some publicity. In Mike Shoemaker's rule, I don't know if he did that with Jimmy is, is that we're not going to get anybody on the 1230 show that has ever worked in late night. I mean, they were animate about that, correct? Yeah, that was right. the only person they had worked in late night was Morgan Murphy and she had worked she worked

for Kimmel but Miles got to hire one writer when he was made head writer. See the way the way they did that too was they put together the writing staff first and then they picked the head writer. So that's kind of always how they've done things at that show and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but I know that when Miles got hired it's my understanding that he said can I bring Morgan Murphy with me just to have at least one person. And worked out pretty well, I would say. She's done some pretty good things. So, yeah.

Then is it two years in? I don't know if I have the year, right. Was it 2011 that Mike Shoemaker says, how would you like to write a few jokes for my friend's big dinner? Was that 2011? Yeah. For my friend Seth's dinner. Okay.

And you do not know that this is going to be Seth Myers or the correspondence dinner at this point. No. I have no idea. So I'm at work. One day, he just corners me before the mile. I mean, hey, hey, buddy. Hey, buddy.

you know, Shoemaker. Hey, buddy, how you doing? How'd you like to write some jokes for my, my friend Seth and his dinner, huh? Yeah, okay, sure. I'll write some jokes for a dinner party. That's fine. It's, you know, I don't even know if I'm getting paid, whatever. So then, yeah, I really want you to, I really want you to meet my friend. But, you know, he keeps building it up every couple of days. Yeah, okay, fine. So then, uh, one day, he's like, yeah, he's going to be in my office, you know, take a six o'clock, come by, you know, meet him. So I go by and I'm with, I noticed that Legend and Bronson are walking with me. And I'm like, are you guys going to Shoemaker's office?

They're like, yeah, we're going to meet Seth Myers. And that's when it clicked. And I was like, oh, Seth Myers still didn't know it was the correspondence dinner. I didn't even know he was, you know, doing the speech or whatever, that thing. So I'm just excited to meet Seth Myers and talk about the Red Sox with him, you know? Then I find out what this is for. Hey, you're going to be writing for the White House correspondence dinner. Oh, okay.

So we go in on a vacation. week, hiatus week, whatever you want to call it. In the room, it's Eric Legend, it's Jeremy Bronson, and it's myself, but there's also Alex Bays, there's Neil Brennan, there's Doug Abel's, there's John Mullaney. It's Mike Drucker is sending stuff in a remote. Colin Jost was there too, right? He wasn't there. I don't know why he wasn't there.

He wrote for it. He did write for something. He was sending, yeah, I didn't meet him until a few months after that, but he, he was, it was a murderer's row. And I was used to being able to, by that point, I was very cocky. So by that point, I was either angry or arrogant. It was one of the two A's and which equal asshole. So it's three A's.

And so I was arrogant that week. I was like, oh, man, it's a vacation week. I only have to write two pages or one page of joke. Whatever. This is going to be a piece of cake. So we get into the read and I'm last and I'm hearing everyone else's jokes and I'm saying oh shit because it's like john malaney so you know it's john reading his jokes or whatever so he's like you know don't don't trump he's like a man in the times square and he's he has his children

fired people and he's you know all these great things and i'm like oh i'm like he just in one joke has more than anything and i have one one sheet like that's just awful and then you know he's set's reading bays's jokes and they're all every single one is great so it gets to my sheet of jokes and everything dies like just every joke it's just every joke it's just clearly a half-assed, wrote it at midnight, watching SportsCenter, already take a sleeping pill joke. So then there's the very last jokes about it on the page, and it says Donald Trump says he has been saying he's going to run for president

as a Republican, which is interesting because I thought he was running as a prank. And I laugh at it myself, which is breaking one of my rules. Like I'm like, ha ha, you know, I'm laughing at my own joke. And Seth goes, it's okay, but is there a better word than, prank and then he's just like yeah he's about to turn the packet which would a man i got nothing on and i just go what about joke what about joke and then neil goes yes joke that's it that's the word right there and set goes oh okay yeah maybe so cut to the dinner and it's on youtube now it's been viewed however millions of times even my daughter knows this moment she's

only seven years old. Seth does the joke and Trump is there and he is pissed. A couple days later, Seth comes down to give me my check for the night and he says to me, you don't want to lay low for a little while. Why? Donald Trump is really pissed at you. Me, you told the joke, he goes, I didn't give you up, but he confronted Seth and he really wanted to know who wrote that joke, calling him a joke. Said that it ruined his political career, ruined all this stuff. Now, I don't subscribe to this, but there's a theory in New York that Seth's jokes in particular, that one may have been a driving factor in Mr. Trump pursuing his political ambitions again in 2015 and 2016. You know, in Boston, I know how it got around.

I told friends in Boston that I had written that joke, and they were cool. They didn't tell anybody. Everyone kept it quiet. Even my friend at the globe, you know, waited until I was ready to talk about it, uh, until he heard the story, but he didn't run with it. And I don't know how people in New York found out about it. But as that election got closer and closer in 2016, I started hearing getting texts from people. Like I started hearing from people, it's like, hey man, this might be your fault because you wrote that joke. I know it's not true. But it gets a little annoying after a while. And the night that he finally won, even though it was like 2.30 or 3.30 in the morning, my phone was blowing up. I mean, it was just nonstop texts. And it was literally, they all said the same thing from other comics. This is your fault. This is your fault. You did this. You made him do this. This is your fault. And I always thought it was just in my head. I always thought it was just me. But the funny thing is, Seth was on the show one time.

on Jimmy's show and they talked about that joke and I'm sitting there like because like no one in the office at that point they're all it's a different staff so no one knows that I and I'm like don't give these people I mean they're really funny you know it's Chris Blair it's all those guys and I'm like please please don't so he gets through it doesn't mention it and then I send Seth an email and I say hey man thank you so much for not mentioning that I wrote that joke and then he goes he writes back he goes I actually forgot and he showed me his notes for a segment and he wrote, it had Reimman joke next. I was like, oh, and I'd go, please don't anyone, don't tell anyone. Look, you know, wait until I'm gone, wait till I'm out of here. But yeah,

I will say that as you're sitting in, as I was sitting in there with Miles, every day putting the monologue together as the presidential motorcade went by to Trump Tower. That joke didn't seem so funny anymore. So the Boston Globe did a piece on you and they wrote that you still regret it. Is that, Is that true, or were they being funny? I think they were being, I mean, I know Mark, and he's a great dude, and he's a friend, and I thought he did a really good job with that story. I mean, there's a certain element of entertainment to any piece of journalism. And, you know, like, I was behind a project at the time that desperately needed some help

funding-wise and everything. So I, that's why I agreed. They were helping me out, too, to get my name on. We succeeded. We did the thing. But no, I've honestly, Mark, I'm more haunted by not helping out. day of their hair tussle. I think that I really wish I had written some interview questions that day that were hard hitting and were smart. That was my job. That's a place I should have

been. And look, if I get, who knows, man, that election was so close. Who knows? I mean, I don't think it was Jimmy. I don't think the tussle had anything to do with it. But I think that if Jimmy had one or two really smart questions that he knew a writer like me was behind, so he felt comfortable telling it. Not that I'm a genius or any, but just that he knows, it's like, oh, I know this guy. If he feels good about it, I feel good about it. And maybe he gets Trump, puts him on the spot a little bit. That interview is a whole different story.

It might be Jimmy Fallon asks really insightful question. Jimmy Fallon puts Trump on the spot instead of Jimmy doesn't ask any question. Well, the fact of the matter is we left Jimmy hanging. We left him high and dry. You know, we didn't give him this. Jimmy was a guy who put me on the show twice. The second time I was there, he put my parents on the show. He went the extra mile, and I couldn't just write a few interview questions.

You know what I mean? Like, it was just like, that haunts me a lot more. There were a bunch of other people in the same situation you mentioned at the show. Yeah, we all should have done it. And I feel bad that none of us did. But, you know, it's just like I tell people, go the extra mile with your job, do everything that's asked of you. You've moved forward.

I know that you had a. really good time teaching at Emerson. I got a kick out of you mentioning that none of the students, you know, they watched a lot of Seth Myers. You said they watched John Oliver, but they didn't know who David Letterman was and you showed them some clips. And they fell in love with Letterman. And you found out over the weekend, they were like, we're watching Letterman. Did you know he was, he had to show it on NBC. Yeah. That I know. Yeah. I just really got, I really like hearing that. Yeah. You know what I showed them was the one that really got them was it It was top 10 surprising facts about Sesame Street.

It was that top 10 list. The one that killed the most was after years of speculation, Burtnery confirmed that they are in fact brothers. And the thunderous laugh, like, you know, the guys, the guys were in for it right away. But like, because, you know, Letterman's dude's humor at certain points. But the girls in the class on that joke, the young women in that. in that Emerson class, they were crying, they were laughing so hard. I mean, they, like, he won everyone over. Like, it was just, it was so amazing to, you know, I think I was 35 or 36 at

that time at that age, after having worked in late night for nine years, it was fucking amazing to be part of people discovering the Letterman show. And then, uh, we watched Rupert, the fun with Rupert segment, you know, at the, the John Beckerman segments where he would, Dave, would feed the lines and stuff and he started that yeah yeah who do you think who do you think you are martha stewart who do you think you are the queen of england you know he comes back with his thumb and they yeah that was that was the fun that was so funny fun fun with a cell phone people were crying i mean people were laughing so hard and you know i got to say that it speaks to in my opinion i hate say it but speaks to what's missing in late night right now is that

there isn't really we don't have that person we don't have the person we don't have the person that's the troublemaker, you know, it just seems like every show is, like, the thing about Dave, I mean, look, another very flawed person, and he admits to this, and certainly he's had his skeletons, and they're all out of the closet, and, you know, he is accounted for them, and God bless, and it's great, it's great that we still have him. I love that Dave is, I love watching his YouTube channel, and he still makes me, makes me laugh like I'm 12 years old, all over again. Never met him, whenever I meet somebody that knows him, I'm always like, dude, tell me everything about, you know and it's it's cool stuff but the thing about letterman was it felt like he was he was

an advocate for the underdog he was fighting from beneath he would have human interest stories on i'll never forget when that guy jumped on the subway tracks and saved somebody and dave had them on for had the guy on for two segments and it was great i think he might have been the last human interest story like that i mean they he was so good he was very very good they had that that gentleman on and I remember him talking narrating the clip and and then Jay would do that too sometimes. Jay had some good human interest

people too and he doesn't get enough credit for. Jay would also put his standups on in the second act. So it would be a guest standup musical act. So you'd really get Dave did the same thing sometimes. But I think that what the students told me and I wrote about this and I got in trouble for it a little bit.

Some blowback from, I don't think Katie Hockmeyer is going to be sending me any Christmas cards anytime soon. But But again, I wrote an article that ended up being in Salon Magazine. It was originally in the conversation. It was about things I've learned from teaching late night at Emerson and things I learned that, you know, the students wish they could see and why they're not watching late night. And a lot of it linked back to people.

I didn't have control on all the links that were in the store. You know, you know how it works, Mark, when you write something and, you know, Bill Carter could probably tell us, when you write a story in the digital age. And I just had a Celtics column that came out. They control what everything is linked to in the story, you know. So if you mentioned the head of late night, maybe it could do this. They're going to link back to a story about Katie Hockmeyer or whatever. So it looked like I was, you know, but really I was just saying this is what I've learned from all that.

And the thing, that was a big takeaway from the students, surprisingly. And it makes sense now when you see the rise of TikTok and YouTubers and average people, so to speak, is that they said we're burned out from all the celebrities. We're burned out from all the back patting and all these people that are, you know, like people that are coming on to promote their skin line when they were just on two weeks ago to promote their TV movie or whatever. Why don't they have regular people on?

And they actually cited Letterman. They said, I went on Letterman and I saw that he had, and I could not, when I saw this, I was like, who are these kids? They were like, I saw he had Harvey Picard on. And they did these amazing, I was like, how the hell do you know? And they're like American splendor, you know, and I was like, oh, yeah. At 1230, it is a little bit easier to have those people on.

But he was, in the beginning of CBS, he was still doing the human interest. And Ellen did that very, very well with the human interest, having them on and having kids on. Oh, yeah, totally. That did stop, though, eventually for Dave, for the most part. But I would say, like, that's one thing that's missing is human interest. I think that another thing is that you don't have, is that the host. I mean, Colbert, because as Gerard would say, it's very cathartic. It's cathartic to see him come out and bash Trump when that's how you feel.

It's cathartic for people who have Gutfeld to come out and bash Kamala, if that's how you feel. You know, I get that. But there isn't that person that every man or woman that could do it the way Rivers did, that could do it the way Letterman did, that makes you feel like they're with you. You know what I mean? Like, it's like you watch late night shows now. Now, the hosts are all, you know they're rich, you know they're famous, you know they're friends with their guests.

And there's never going to be an interview. Like if Joaquin Phoenix went on a late night show now, any late night show and acted like he did with Letterman, you'd never hear about it. Like it would just be edited, it would be cut down to a four minute interview to make him look good because, oh, we want him to come back. I want that guest who's going to go, no, I'm not, I'm not dealing with him. this. I want someone who's going to stand up to him. I'd love to have it be someone who's not a white Catholic guy. I'd love to see some diversity in there. But the other thing is, Mark,

and people are now catching onto this, and I got in a big fight with somebody that I regret to some degree, but my side of the argument was not totally wrong, which is that YouTube has killed it. I mean, it's like putting everything on YouTube, the whole segment for free. Why is anyone going to watch the show? And when people say to me, well, you're, that, you got to adjust to the times. You got to live with the times. I'm like, okay, well, you know what the times are? The times are, Seth just said the layoff is banned and the tonight show is only on four nights a week. That sucks. Those aren't good times. So you can't tell me it's good business to put all your segments on YouTube. The minute the monologue ends, it's up on YouTube. Or in some cases, it's up there two hours before.

Who the hell is going to watch the show? I never watch these shows anymore. And then it gets to the point where you don't even watch YouTube. You know, it's like if you're like TV was a very habitual thing. Like when I like when the monologues pop up on my YouTube in the morning, I'll be honest with you, man. Unless I hear from somebody, hey, they did the rhyme and impression again, which I think it's been about a year. I think I texted Miles and called them out on it nicely. You said, hey, I feel very honored that I'm still a character in the monologue.

And I was, but I don't watch them a lot of times. Like I kind of feigned my way. Even when I was teaching late night at Emerson, if I didn't have to watch it, if we were working on something different, if we were working on interviews or sketch or whatever, I don't care. Like, I'm just going to skip it. And I think that a lot of people have. And so I think that if it were me, I would say, I think if I were going to pitch a late

night show, it wouldn't be a late night show. It would be you're on at 7 o'clock. You're on one of the streamers. It's four nights a week. Let's take that right off the gate. So it's Monday through Thursday. You're on at 7 p.m. Live right after the news.

And that's it. And that way, because I think that the days of, I hate to say this on a late night podcast that I love late night, I think it has to go away for a while. I think it has to be on at a different time. I think you need to move that up because think about it. If you're,

you know, like me, if you're working and you're going to school or you have a kid or something's going on, I don't want to stay up until 1130 to hear all the jokes from earlier in the day. You know, I don't want to say, I want to hear him right after it happens. If I watch David Moore and I watch the news and or if I watch Lester Holt and I see what's going on, I want to hear the jokes right after that.

That's the world we live in now. We want immediacy. And so my plan would be take Jimmy, put him on at seven or take someone like him, put them on early enough so that, because we, none of those shows right now are so edgy that kids can't see them. They're fine. And then you know what that would do? At a certain point,

Gen Alpha, people like my daughter who really like dark and twisted stuff, if you present to them someday after many years of having that show right on, right after the news that mom and dad liked to watch, you know, the grown up show. Like, oh,

this is the people and the formal people. They talk about politics and stuff. And you say, hey, you know, there used to be shows on at like 1130, 1230 that you weren't supposed to watch. You'd have to sneak in from your parents and check it out.

You'd have to see a, really then that's when you get the people like jazzelnick and stuff like that so my strategy they'll never do it they're going to keep things the way they are but i'd love to see Netflix or you know somebody like that come in at seven o'clock with like leslie jones and four nights a week she does the news she does her thing right after you just saw the news and that becomes the show that's the hot show and then at a certain point the pendulum will swing and when little Sadie Reimann is all of a sudden 14 years old and she wants that blood and guts and gore and foul language and everything oh well maybe late night maybe we can bring that back maybe

we can put some people in there maybe depending on what he's doing what's Pete Davidson up to at that point would he be interested in doing something that the you know kids might be in you remember him for Mr. Beast right guys you know so I think it's like I think it's savable but there are issues that need to be dealt with and I hope people do I hope they think think of future generations. And, you know, Jay Ali said he wanted to hand the show off to the next guy. I think Jimmy's probably the same way. I just think that, you know, the YouTube stuff has to stop. It's like when newspapers would give away their articles for free without a paywall. You're killing the business. You got to cut back on the YouTube. Yeah, I don't know if it's ever,

I don't think it's ever going to go back. It's like saying the WWE is giving away their matches, I think, on Mondays, where they can't do the job or matches, which they used to do to try to get them into the arenas, which worked for so long. I know what you're saying in theory, but I can't see that happen. But think about WWE. When did WWE's business really, in our lifetime,

winter times it really took off when it was based in reality? The attitude era for sure. So you had the Montreal screw job, and that's when Brett Hart found out his office was cleaned out, so to speak, and when he was supposed to win a match and he lost, and then was done with WWE. And then similar reasons, didn't want to do business.

So I love Brett, but, you know, we could have handled things differently, maybe. I love that I just put myself in the same sentence as Brett Hart. Anyway, but then if you look at when they took off, Mark, it was when Vince got kicked out of the company. And people were like, well, let's see how this is going to go. What are they going to say about it on camera? What's Triple H going to say? Is Stephanie going to stick around? How is this going to play out?

And they took control of that moment. as Bruce would say, and made it work for them. And so when it comes to late night, when people say to me, it'll never come back, it can't come back. That's the wrong attitude. You need to get out. Hey, look, man, it's like, I'm happy with what I'm doing now. I'm happy with my life.

But, you know, I respectfully, if you're talking to a consultant or someone else that's thinking broader strokes and they're telling you, it can never come back, there's nothing you do fire that person and give me a call i'm happy with what i'm doing but i'd be happy to tell you there are definite ways late night can come back it has to come back you need that accountability in the public sphere when someone's acting like a jack to call them on it and make them correct themselves on it i mean you know it's like look at rudy juliani look at that fall just look at look at how far he's fallen people must say like oh he must be humiliated humiliated by whom? No one's watching the late-night show. He's not watching the shows making jokes about them.

No one watches it anymore. It's the YouTube clip we mean to watch and we forget. Whereas if you do like Jay used to do, Jay who, you know, won for all those years and take your best three jokes, your best four jokes and make that your YouTube clip. And then at the end of it, it says, for more, watch the Tonight Show every night at 1130 or Jimmy Kimmel every night at 1130 or whatever for more. you know, you put a closer look up till halfway to watch the rest of it, go watch it on demand or watch it tonight on 1230. Newspapers did this. They saved the Boston Globe that you just mentioned. In 2009, the Boston Globe was going out of business. They were going to be out of business. There was only going to be the Boston Herald.

And papers like that made the adjustment and said, sorry, folks, but you're going to have to read this whole article. You're going to have to log in. to log in, you're going to have to just pay six bucks a month like you would if you're getting a new, this is a cheaper newspaper subscription for you, but you got to pay something. And I think you got to do something like that with late night where it's like you say, hey folks, this is a little bit. This is a little bit of the clip that we're going to show you. You know, here's the first three jokes from Jimmy Fallon and they all killed. You know, here's the beginning of the kids Halloween candy

thing with Jimmy Kimball and it's all really funny. We're going to give you the first third. But to catch a rest, you got to tune into the show. And if you don't, you are missing out. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. I know Michael Che is experimenting with the late night show. I know that Malaney apparently is going to be coming back doing live shows on Netflix. By the way, I will say Malaney, that was as nervous as I've ever been to meet anybody, believe it or not, even back in 2011, you just knew with Malaney. Like, I mean, Jezelnik was nervous and then Malaney, yeah, you just knew. You're like, this guy is a guy right here. There was something about him. I met him only one time at a Saturday Night Live party when he was just a writer on the show and he wrote a sketch that I really liked for Bobby Moyna and he co-wrote it.

It was the Mice and Men and I thought that was really, really funny and I talked to him a little bit, but you could just tell there was just like this charisma and I'd seen a stand up, but he wasn't famous at all at that point, but he, there was something about him. His joke about usually drug dealers make people drug users, but he was a drug user that. created a drug dealer, you know that bit from his last special, where he talks about how his drug dealer was trying to get out of the business, but John kept buying drugs. Oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know what to do. That's that, oh my God, that's just, that was such a great. I mean, it's coming from such a personal place too, but he's such a good host on SNL. He's, he's, he's phenomenal. I do want to mention your book. I know we've talked about it a little bit, um, on some of the other, the two other episodes we did.

Your book is, The Garden is always greener. I know that you were a huge Celtics fan. And, you know, it's really, really funny. You mentioned, was it the family guy? A lot of the writers or have been, it's been going around the writer's room. Yeah, it's been very nice.

Yeah, Artie Johan and, you know, Alex Salkin and some of those guys. And a few people reached out. Yeah, a few different, and then just random people. But yeah, the premises, during lockdown, when we were all kind of stuck inside, I had a PlayStation 5 brand new, and I had NBA 2K, that was the only game I had. I kind of did a simulation of if Len Byas had lived and played for the Celtics and saw how

everything would have played out, kept a record of it, and sat around for a couple years. And then finally, I was like, boy, I'd really like to write a story around this, like a comedy, something people could have fun reading. So reached out to Len's parents and his family and his family and his, mom said, God bless, just can you use a name other than Len Bias? And I said, absolutely. And it was, you know, I took the win and said, thank you very much, you know, Dr. Bias. And she was awesome and, you know, wrote a story that is basically a redo of the 90s. And so it's got, you know, things happen different. OJ. gets apprehended before anything can go south. Tupac and Biggie,

they got rescued somehow. TV shows change or come and go in different ways. And it's, all sorts of funny stuff with cartoon fictionalized versions of people like Shaquille Anil Anil and Arvita Sabonis and Dennis Rodman and of course Michael Jordan, who has a much different arc in this book as well. And it's sort of like a mix of Forrest Gump meets a curbier enthusiasm where there's a lot of running gags and callbacks. And the reason it's done that way is that it's dedicated to my dad who died of Alzheimer's and donate from my earnings to the Alzheimer's Association, just made another donation the other day. And it's because guys need to read. There's a lot of studies that men are of a higher rate of dementia than women and

men are not reading and men are not reading fiction and exercising their mind and trying to remember things. So it's gardens, the gardens always greener. If you go to gardens greener book.com, you can check it out and read all the rules of the simulation and the history of it and what people have to say and yeah it was a really fun project and it was also really nice too because it's got a lot of jokes in there there's a lot of like monologue jokes about each year and things that went on and there's a couple fake top 10 lists in there and stuff like that and man just being realistic it might be the last time I get to write stuff like that it was really fun to get to do it in a personal project like this so gardens greener book.com go check it out john ridman thank you so much for

coming on again this was fun thanks mark thank you for listening We are taking an end of the year holiday break for the next two weeks. We will be back in the new year. Happy holidays to you all. I'm going to be. And so much. I'm going to be. I'm going to be.

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