Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Jon Schneider

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

Jon Schneider from the Saturday Night Network and Mark discuss the SNL 1993-1995 seasons, Phil Hartman's brilliance, and who belongs on the Mount Rushmore of the SNL cast. 

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff, and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by latenighter.com. Today on the show, John Schneider from the Saturday Night Network talks to me about Saturday Night Live from 1993 to 95. They had two tough seasons. We talk about the highs, we talk about the lows, we talk about so much more. Join me. Now it is time to go Inside Light Night. John Schneider, Saturday Night Network, good to see you again. Great to see you, Mark. So this is one of my favorite subjects because, you know, I was watching this era of S&L growing up, and it was, you know, it was conflicting because there were some really amazing sketches that I think are some of the best in the history of the show. And then there were others in the season more than others because it was always, the show can always be inconsistent, but I don't know if it was ever this inconsistently.

There were brilliant sketches, but overall it just wasn't working. and that's the 93 to 95 era of the show. I wanted to look at it. I wanted to dissect it. I want to talk about what, looking back, it's a lot easier to look back and be like what went wrong and what were the specific things

that they could have maybe fixed or gone in a different direction and just looking back how, if there was a time machine, I guess, or at the time that, if they were talking to me, maybe, that they would realize, that there were a few things that they might have could have done

to improve the show not only in terms of the critics the critics were really really hard on the show but just the people watching at home would hear lots of silence more than maybe any time in this show's history I would maybe argue maybe

Dominion maybe might be close but it was that was rough two years there were definitely highlights and amazing shows, but overall, it was a tough, it was a tough two years that I think I would have loved to see Peacock cover a documentary on those years or one of those years with the people looking back. They kind of touched upon it a little bit, but not in the depth that I would have hoped for. Yeah. Well, we did do sort of, we're doing a mini documentary series at the Saturday Night

Network called Everything You Need to Know about SNL. So we did talk a lot about what I would, you know, call the downfall of this era. And, you know, start going into certain episodes and why things happen the way that they did. But I always felt like it was like a two-prong situation. Number one is they really set it up that the bad boys were going to be replacing and becoming the new stars of the show. And they were pushing them hard and marketing them as like the new cool hip cast. And it really is a tone shift from what worked years earlier in the late 80s where when they finally nailed it with Phil and Jan and Kevin and Dana like when they had those people there was like an ensemble maturity to the

performances that I think like they that sort of reminded people of the original cast and I think as individually talented as all of the guys that they brought on are I don't know that they mesh well as an ensemble in sketches like you had a lot of duos and it felt very like inside jockey in a way that the comedy didn't elevates the way earlier. In terms of the bad boys who you're mentioning, they definitely didn't have the versatility of a ground lens, maybe second city with characters like you would later see with people like Farrell and people with Sherry O'Terry.

Well, they hired a lot of stand-ups, right? And it's actually like the closest comparison for people who are watching now is like that's what they did in season 48, like a couple years ago, is that they hired a lot of standups because all these places were closed due to COVID so they couldn't do proper auditions. And like whenever the show leans standup, like personally, I think the quality diminishes. I think it's okay to mix like some standups in there. But like when you lean heavy standup, it creates a little bit of a different vibe of the show.

It was at the point where Al Franken was telling people, I heard from somebody that said, how do we get on SNL at the time? He said you have to write for the show, you have to do stand. up. They were hiring primarily standups or Harvard Lampoons if you got into Harvard and the cast members. Now, I understand why that season, the hires were all standups and the writers were all either standups or lampoons. And I don't know how many people, other than the Lampoon people, I'm sure they submitted to the show. But the standups that they hired, without doing packets to my knowledge, I get why they did it because it worked with Sandler, it worked with Schneider and Spade. They all hired them blindly

based on their auditions and they turned out they could write sketch comedy. What they didn't realize is if they tried to do this again, that there would be people, Jay Moore, they couldn't write sketch comedy. Sarah Silverman acknowledges at the time she got zero sketches on the air and couldn't do it. There were people like Dave Attell, who I think got two sketches on the entire season. One was his idea, which was Love Boat the Next Generation for Patrick. for Patrick Stewart. And the other one was, I think, when Emilio Estevez was hosted,

which was, what was it, The Geek, Deweeb or Spaz, something like that. So there was a bunch of hires of people. And Norm MacDonald, they brought in as well. But in terms of somebody like Sarah, who was really, really fun and she was great on update, I will never understand why they, first of all, didn't do writing packets

to see if they could actually, write sketch comedy to why they wouldn't bring in some groundlands or second city people instead of standups. I don't I don't understand that to this day why they just didn't balance and really, really hurt them. Well, I think from the naked eye, like people's perception of that time is that there was like a hard transition from one era to another, but there was actually a pretty smooth transition happening in the previous seasons. Like in season 16, you still had jam there eventually you'll lose Victoria and then Dana and then Phil but like having those people with all of these new hires created magic and those seasons end up being pretty good

despite how large the cast was it was when you lost all of those people and then now the focus was on you know people like Sandler and Farley and Spay like they ended up being the leaders of the cast and I just don't think that they're like that was the position to put them in and I think that the writings it just it just turned into a different show. And I don't think of that is sustainable. Both Jim Downey and Rob Schneider foreshadowed that this was going to be it was going to be rough because they lost

and I know I'm a broken record, but it's the truth. They lost Smigel. They lost Jack Handy. They lost the turners. They lost Christine Zander. I think Downey said basically it was 80% of the stuff that was getting on when they, and that they won the Emmy the year before. I mean, it was the last time I think the show's ever won when they were up against

everything for the best show. I don't think they've one since for Best Show on the Emmys. I could be off on that, but, I mean, it was a huge ratings triumph. Wayne's World, you know, was still, they were still huge with that. Carvey was there half this season. And when they lost those writers and they did not do packets with the stand-up people that I'm aware of, and they hired all these. You know, Robert Smigel told me that later, Lauren, looking back on this two seasons,

too many Harvard people. And I think that you can see an influence that might have been, that might have seeped in a little bit. But definitely with those writers, I just don't know why they wouldn't, maybe they did look at packets and they just, they didn't like any and stuff. But that,

but bringing in like an Adam McKay or going to Chicago, it could have saved them a lot of pain. No doubt. And also, like I'm talking a lot about the cast and you're talking about the writers. I mean, I'm totally with you on the writers. I think that they lost in like really legendary writers. Obviously there was a like a late night shift that was occurring in the early 90s,

which I think probably took a lot of talent away from the SNL family in a way that like, you know, you'd end up getting like Paula Pell who would stay on for 20 years. Like you didn't have that then. So I think there was a lot of turnover. They were trying to figure out how to bring people in. I think that there was because Franken and Downey had been there from basically the beginning, I think the upward mobility that. could have been there for some of those writers like Smigel probably wasn't there.

And then I know that there was sort of a pseudo offer of like him being a producer in season 21 and he'll eventually come back and do TV Funhouse. But I think that like the people who left in the early 90s that were those like mega talented writers probably would have stayed on had they been given more power at the show and didn't have that opportunity. Terry Turner told me he couldn't get out or they're faster. I mean, they were burned out. I think that they had a kid at that point.

But, I mean, it was definitely one of those things where I remember talking to Terry Turner. He's like, yeah, Phil stayed forever, which was eight years. And now that's nothing with staying in the writers. It was designed at that point. You would stay maybe seven years. And if you were there for any longer, it was considered, you were kind of ancient. Now, they brought back Marilyn Miller, Marilyn Suzanne Miller, who is an amazing writer. and I have so much respect.

Her style at the time, though, not at the time, her style, which in the 70s shined on SNL, it was a very different style of, and she got very little on the show. And I don't think it was a bit. Tom Davis told me that actively there were people at the show that were trying to fight for him not to get his stuff on. And I know famously that Sally Field sketch, he wrote this sketch where she praised too much. and Jesus comes back to ask her not to pray as much, that she basically,

Sally Field wanted it doing it. She's like, he said to her, you are going to have to fight for the sketch to get on, because I cannot, I'm not going to be able to do this. And I know that there are a couple other pieces that he wrote where the same thing happened where it's,

he told the writer. So I think it was just, I think it was tough, David Tell, I mean, was sneaking out during rewrites to do stand up. I mean, it just,

I don't know if people really wanted to be there. Jim Downey, people say it was going through a divorce and would be keeping people to like 4 a.m. on Thursdays, which I don't know if that exists anymore for rewrites for no reason. Jay Moore wrote in his book, and I don't know if it's true that Danny would show the people in the middle of the night basketball clips from his high school in Illinois. Yeah, it just seems very strange time. Well, I also think it's interesting because like they've never had such an extended run as that as they had that. Like the five-year original run was like the only experience of great S&L for the people who were working there at the time.

So for them to like continue this momentum starting in season 12 and then you're getting into 16, 17, 18 and things are still like doing somewhat okay. I don't think they ever knew like how long the runway was going to be. And as people continued to burn out, it really took executive intervention to put a stop to all of this. Because, like, I don't know, like, does, if the people in, in L.A. like, don't get involved, like, does Lauren continue to try and, like, extend the tale of this cast into the early 20s? Because that's why I find season 21 so fascinating, because the resurrection of the show is actually really interesting to me post all of this. But for this, it's just, like, a slow descent into chaos. And there, like you said, there are some good sketches. There are some good episodes, as is every season in season 20. but it is like a slog.

I will say this. There are things that people believe that are not true. And I will give you an example. Nancy Kerrigan had some really funny sketches. People still will show these in like the best of. Yeah, the last half hour was really, really rough. After update, it got dead silence. But that sketch that I believe Norm wrote with the Olympics was really, really funny.

It got huge laughs. the one with the pre-tape with Barley and Kerrigan skating is shown in the best of it was it was it was definitely one of those things where the ratings were high the expectations were high and the last after update and after it just it it was it definitely fizzled but with you if they had YouTube back then with two sketches that worked really really well uh I think that people might have looked back a little bit more and she had obviously no very little range like a lot of sports people. I don't know, maybe they could have used her better. The Denise show with Sandler got laughs as well. I think that people looking back, they watched at least like the first half

hour or 40 minutes would see that they're wrong. But I think pretty famously that show, the cast and the writers were like very upset that she was booked as the host. I know Mike Myers was there might. All I know is Lauren is so smart when it comes to, you know, controversy. I mean, that was on the it was huge news it's just they didn't deliver i mean in terms of of at least the last half hour they did those sketches where where she's at disney world and stuff complete silence and it didn't help them either that no standbys got in i mean now again i know i talk about this all the time you're getting 70 to 80 standbys in every single show this season for live show and dress and they were not doing that back

then nobody, not one single person was let in for that show. It's going to affect the audience. Who was in the audience for that show? All VIPs. I mean, they, they didn't let any standby. What they would do when they, I think that they still do this is it's a hundred lottery winners, tickets, 100 tickets, sent to 50 people across the United States, the back then that would send a postcard. And if you're in Seattle, you would have a week and a half to book your trip to New York. And inevitably, I'm guessing, at least half the people cannot. could not use these tickets. Well, you know, the first time I was invited to the show, I was invited 24 hours before.

This is what I'm saying. This is what happens with the show. So you might have 50 people that actually are fans and the rest were VIPs. I mean, it was absolutely, and I get it because if you're in the talent department, there are certain people that you are going to have to please and you're going to have to book for political reasons. I get it. But to not have any VIPs, There would be sketches that are the most beloved things in the last 20 years that if they didn't have VIPs, if they didn't have any standbys in, I question whether they would have gotten laughs and if the public would look back at them and be like this was really funny. There's very few sketches that didn't do great. Like potato chip did okay and stuff and it was really, really, really funny. But if you didn't have any standbys in there, I don't know if that would have gotten anything and if people would have talked about it.

basically they probably would. But I think that there's absolutely, though, sketches where the public and the critics will watch the show. And if people in the stands are laughing, it's a funny show. I mean, they rely on the laughter. I mean, for good or for bad, it's very rare that you'll hear either a critic or somebody, a fan, be like, you know what? When they got big laughs that that show was not good or those sketches. I mean, I really feel like the psychological thing and the laughter is not looked at enough. I've said before that I think that the show, and I don't know what's the truth or not, like I am not in their heads, but like the idea that the show is relying on the dress audience to decide which sketches they're going to put on air is my least favorite part of the entire SNL process. I think so, like, it's so not an indication of like what will like last on. online and what will be make for a good show like people who are going in there are primed to

laugh at everything like it's not going to tell you whether things are going to go i've seen it i've seen it i remember being the bob sag at tLC show when they had that i think the track meet the dress wasn't strong dress the cold open that they did didn't even make it into the show they moved sandler's update piece talking about basketball to the cold open and um they did um remember the track meet which was near the end of dress getting a little bit more than everything else but still not playing great, and they moved it all the way up. And I mean, I mean, I would argue also the chicken wing sketch with Christian Slater, 91, 92 is another thing. Smigel mentioned Jim Downey, Spade, and Schneider wrote that piece, which is another thing. Like, I can't believe this got on.

I don't want to mention it. It was different then, Mark, because then, like, you didn't have Stan culture. Like, now there is that, like, all the people who are coming in for the standby are, like, so obsessed with the idea of Saturday Night Live, which, and like, and like, look, I think those people are important for the show. Like, it's great that there's a following there. But I think that, like, I don't know that that was there in the 90s. Obviously, there was big fans of comedy and people who were excited to see the show, but not people who would go in and love everything no matter what and just, like, are so obsessed with one particular house member. There would still be, if you put the standbys in, it still was a culture where things could bomb. The same way that Johnny Carson, you would have

silence where you do not have silence anymore during monologues with late night host. It's not that the quality is shot up. The audiences have changed. They clap no matter what. It's a very different. I do want to talk about some of the highlights of 93, 94. I mean, to me, early on, I mean, I thought Shannon Doherty was really strong host, and they spoofed her personal life in the monologue with her getting married and she's just really rude and screaming and it was funny. And that the real world sketch, which David Mandel wrote was really, really funny with the Denise show, which Steve Corrin penned. I thought overall that this was a very, very strong show where the Barclay premiere and traditionally a lot of times premieres don't go great. This is Barclay's first

time hosting, not the strongest premiere by any means. No, definitely not. I, I, think that probably lives in the shadow of Michael Jordan's episode. So they were trying to maybe recreate that magic that they had. But I do agree. Shannon Doherty's was really good. I mean, there's a lot of going on there with Cypress Hill as well with I think that they lit joints during their performances and they weren't supposed to. But Shannon was a really good host. And sometimes like the women hosts of those eras don't get the credit because they weren't asked back five or ten times the way that you had with like Baldwin and Goodman. But people like Shannon, people like Heather Locklear, like they were really good hosts that

could have come back again. It's absolutely true. The next week, Lou Morton and Rob Schneider wrote that subway sketch with Rob Schneider playing the guitar for, you know, people are putting in coins and in bills. And he is basically, he's saying, he's singing songs that are clearly about the people that are standing around but then trying to play off that they aren't personal. It's, I believe, as Sandler one asks if he can do a duet with him

or something, but it's, I'm just a funny, well, it's a perfect, perfect sketch. The rest of the show, I thought the cold open was very ambitious. Michael Jordan, was it, wasn't Michael Jordan was leaving? I remember just, it was a cold open, because I remember Stephen Tyler was, when it was in it. And it was a really fun thing

with the entire cast. But again, after that sketch, it just goes down in terms of the audience, energy. And it was really tough. But the monologue with Jeff Goldblum and talking about the dinosaurs with all the writers with the questions was hilarious. That was very good as well.

I still think like the beginning of 19, we can continue to talk episode by episode, but the beginning of 19, I actually think is really solid. Yeah. But once they get past that, I mean, oh my goodness. John Malkovich has that brilliant sketch where they're doing.

What was that movie called in the line of fire where he is calling up? He thinks it's the president, but he's getting wrong numbers. Like that was, I think, the last sketch of the night, which they should have brought up to the cold open. But that didn't. It was a tough show. The Christian Slater show was awfully rough. Rosie O'Donnell was not as strong. The monologue was very, very strong.

Nicole Kidman, other than maybe the cold open with Wayne's World. and I mean, her, the monologue was good. Definitely fill up the hyperactive kid, but there were like four or five shows that were just not. It wasn't yelling. Yeah, like it wasn't. See, I don't think it was so bad. Like, I think that there were stuff where, like,

maybe it wasn't fully jelling. Like, obviously, the quality had dipped from 17 to 18. But, like, I think there is one show coming up that is the turning point that I've always felt like that was the one. The one, okay, well, let's keep going. First of all, David Mandel. Well, thank goodness for David Mandel. I mean, the Charlton Heston episode, which goes in December of 93, I would love when he would play with the format.

I just loved the format where he took the Planet of the Apes cold open and all the credits didn't have the actors' names. And it was just them just doing Planet of the Apes. And his, I mean, it was just so amazing, so brilliant. And then Fred Wolf and Norm wrote a really, really funny sketch. that's the bag boy, Edwin, I feel like that this was a show that gave me a little bit of hope. And I love when they would bring back the older, older performers. Yeah, that's one of those things that I always say is great in any era, because I always look for hosts that are different than anyone who is in the cast.

So if you're going to get an older person to host, then the contrast between them and the roles that they can play versus what the cast would typically play in sketches, really allows for new comedy to be found from the writers. And that's why, like, a Heston really works. I think that's why, like, Betty White was so exciting. I mean, there's a lot there, obviously, with the women of S&L coming back. But I think, like, the idea of having someone who's just so different from a host

as opposed to being, like, another part of the cast, really stands out to me. To me, when I knew the season was in trouble, was Jason Patrick 100%. I remember where I was when I was watching this. And I just was sitting there and disbelief. with the lack of audience laughs. Now, there are a couple reasons where this could be. One is, as Johnny Carson would say, acceptance is 80%.

If you're a known entity, it's a lot easier to get laughs where Jason Patrick, nobody that I knew, knew who this guy was. I mean, they would bring in certain people. Like I remember Mary Stewart, Madison, the first time I was at SNL, she was up and coming.

They would bring, sometimes they would do this. They would bring people in where the audience might not know them, but it is awfully hard for these. people as unknowns to get laughs. And a writer told me later that, or I have overheard him actually say that apparently he just didn't think Jason Patrick wanted to be there the whole week and it kind of showed. Well, that was in the monologue, right? That was the whole concept of the monologue. It was and I think that they wrote it because he, that was what kind of vibe he was giving off.

But I mean, the monologue was absolutely painful. And the people there, should never be let back into the show. Because if you were not there to at least laugh a little bit, I mean, it was like, who did they let in on this? I mean, they did the Andrew Giuliani cold open, which did some did well. And they wrote, did a Fox football sketch after with us football coming to Fox,

which was mixed the existing box programs. And Richard Simmons was on coffee talk, I think. Yeah, which, you know what, it's always going to, Mike Myers, that sketch is, you know, always going to, get laughs and it did fine but oh my goodness the monologue and the rest of that show um and they had i think the last sketch was really really funny on paper and if they had an actual audience with pulses um on the ski lift with with um jason patrick and kevin neelan written by sandler and i think

norm macdonald really funny but nothing crickets and i that was the show where i said they are in trouble, they need to do something, and they really didn't do anything. No, they're going to hire McKeon, but like that's basically, like in a few episodes, but that's basically all they did. And this to me was the episode I was referring to as the turning point of the season. I think that prior to this, there is some like up and down, like, okay, the season's okay, maybe it's, but this is not notoriously bad. This episode is one of the worst episodes.

It is, like, there are some bad episodes in the history of the show. that are interesting. This one is so dull, so boring, and it is, like, very tough to watch as you. I give Lauren a lot of credit for not sweetening or, like, doing audio effects, because, you know, when I hosted a podcast about Johnny Carson, when he hosted the Emmys, they put in,

even though he was doing it live, as it was going on, he later found out that they were putting in, adding laughs and special effects that weren't really there. And Carson was so furious that he, because he didn't want any, that he wanted it all real. And I give Lorne a lot of credit that that they didn't do that.

I mean, if things changed, I have no idea. But back then, if things were going to die, you know, you would hear that silence. You don't hear that anymore. But this is another thing with Michael McKeon. When is it ever worked in the history of entertainment with somebody says, we're going to replace, we need it with a new Phil Hartman. We're going to replace Phil Hartman. We're going to have to replace friends. We're going to do the new friends.

it never works. It's never worked once that I'm aware of it. Perhaps it has, but it seems like every time they want to do a clone or a fix, they said that they were going to do, they needed to Phil Hartman with Daryl Hammond and it just didn't work. I mean, Phil Hartman was so versatile and he could do things that weren't just celebrity impressions and put his own spin on things. And it was just like, for them to think that McKean, it just, it just did not work. I mean, He's an amazing performer. I'm a huge fan of his work. Well, Phil's irreplaceable.

To me, he's the greatest cast member of all time. And he probably, like, in another life, like, he's the Keenan of this show. Like, he's the one that sticks around forever because he was doing things that no one else would ever do. Like, he was in the most SNL segments per episode ever. Like, I think he, I think in season 17, he was in 145 SNL segments. Like, as a record, it'll never be broken. It's like the home run race. Like, it's just one of those things that's like, he owned this show.

And tragically, younger generations will never know. But he never got credit. He was interviewed at the Rainbow Room. And I, I mean, you very rarely do hear celebrities tell the truth when they're asked this. But he said, is it hard that Mike Myers and wait. I don't think that they said Mike Myers, but other younger people went off to have these huge movies. Is it hard for you?

Does it hurt? he's like, yeah, it does. It hurts. That guy never was acknowledged at all. Very similar to Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, when he was when he was alive. But it was one of those things for Phil Hartman and I think Eddie Murphy are probably the greatest of all time. I mean, there's a couple of others. But like, Seth Myers was just on Vulture podcast talking about his Mount Rushmore for people. And he said Eddie, as he should, that was his first, and did not mention Phil Hartman. I was like, I don't know how you cannot have Phil Hartman on that. on your list, but I mean, everybody is your top four. Oh, gosh, I don't want to do this. Oh, you know what? I will say definitely Eddie. I will say Phil. I will work on this. I will

definitely think about this because I don't want to be the person that's like, okay, you're going to pick who was the cast in that from high school. I definitely would have to think about that a little bit. I have a very clear answer for this. Well, who were your answers? Who would you be? Phil, no doubt, first name of Mount Rushmore. There's no question about it. Will Farrell, the biggest star that S&Ls ever had. Then Kristen Wigg, who changed the way that we look at women on the show and just ran the show for many seasons. And I will put Dana Carvey in there as well as just being the most versatile performer, probably ever.

I had Bill Hader very close to it. He since dropped out, just the legacy and him not coming back with the 50th. Eddie is like right there as well. It just, Eddie, I had out, dig right outside for so long, because I had trouble putting him in my top four when he clearly did not like the show that made him a star. I have a difference of a, I have a different opinion today sitting here because of just what he did coming back for season 45 as a host, coming at the 50th and just crushing it. Like, I almost feel that I'm like compelled to put him back in there, but like he's probably five right now. Whig is unbelievable in terms of a performer, but I would say what are well-written Kristen Wig's sketches? I mean, there are some. Yes, there are some, but it seems like a lot of them

rely just on her making faces or just there were not jokes there that I'm aware of. Am I wrong on that? I just would see her. I think you're wrong because like, first of all, that's my cast, so I will defend it. Can you give me some specific sketches and some writers? Because it seemed like some sketches that I would see where she would just be, it would be her inflection and her voice or just making faces and that, and it was very, very funny. But in terms of the writing, it just it was lost on me a little bit. For sure. Like I think, well, first of all, I think she's an incredible actor, like one of the best. 100%. Seth Meyer said she had the best audition. I have no doubt. She was unbelievable. Yeah. And you see it a lot like very early on in those first

couple seasons, but, like, I do think, like, the stuff she did with Paula Pell, like, Aunt Linda, the, uh, the woman who's like the one upper character, uh, Blanky on her name. Penelopee was very funny. There were, it just seemed like, um, maybe it was just that there were some really well-written pieces, Susie Ormond, there were some good pieces for sure. It just seemed like that it just maybe, um, the writers, like with Will Ferrell, they wanted their pieces on and they just, you know, they just would always cast her. And it just got, um, some of the stuff that got on just seemed very groundlands heavy with behavior stuff without attention to writing account mark like there there's something like sometimes there's a performer

that comes on the show that is like a sparkly person like they just you can't take your eyes off them and agree she has that quality in a performer that i i know that you really value the writing and i will never discount like okay are the christin wigs sketches mount rushmore sketches So I won't take that away from you and what you're saying. But what I will say as like performers on the show is like she is one of the only people in the history of the show that I could say like there was a period of time where this was her show. She was running circles around everybody. Everybody wanted her and their sketches. She made everybody better.

And there had never been a woman on the show who had really done that consistently for so long. Like Amy stabilized things in a bad time. Tina's obviously really important to the writing side. but, like, Kristen was, like, S&L. Like, she's the front of the marquee. And that, to me, was, you know, just because that they take one person and they give them lots of stage time doesn't necessarily, they could have done, well, some people would argue that was, they did that with Dana Carvey, but there were things where there were episodes

where he was absolutely light. He was not, like, 80%. There was nobody, they could have done that with Gilda. They could have done that with anybody and just made them, like, put them in everything that they did with Whig and that was a choice that they made and at work and I mean she is phenomenal like I mean I don't I just wish sometimes quantity I'm not I'm not valuing quantity over quality to be like to be like just to be like just because like Bowen like is in a lot of stuff now it's not like I'm saying like that all works for me like it doesn't like there are eras of the show where someone

is on the most and I'm not saying that they're the best on the cast but like I just think she she fits all of the things that I look for in a cast member in terms of like best like was she built in a lab to be on the show 100% greatest does she have the accomplishments that I think make her so important to the history of the show absolutely and then legacy like her legacy is bigger than most cast members in the history of the show so if you're hitting all three of those to me that makes you so great which is why I think that Phil is my goat because Phil as far as I'm concerned like maybe he loses some legacy points in terms of like he's just not around anymore but I can't discount him for that in terms of the value that I placed on his role on the show.

So if we're heading back to our conversation about 19, Phil being on his way out is the biggest like the dam's about to break and then this is the final piece. Yeah, I mean, definitely, I hear what you're saying about Whig and absolutely brilliant. I remember one of her very first sketches with Alec Baldwin, I believe, in the car and I'm just like, oh my goodness, they've hit the jackpot with this person and they need to be put in her in. and really pushing or which they did. I didn't realize that it was going to become Will Ferrell in terms of like Will Ferrell and then it was

and then it was Whig and then it was McKinnon where they were going to take one person and just make them. I just really do like the more balanced ensemble. That's just a taste thing. But you think the show made them the star? Because I think that this was like a meritocracy where they made themselves the star. Like they were so good that they forced themselves in the spotlight.

Maybe you're right. I will argue though Mike Myers and Dana Carrey. Harvey, did $200 million back in February of 92 with Wayne's World box office. And Lauren, to his credit, was not throwing them in everything and didn't make them the stars by any, in my opinion, I didn't see them getting more stage time. Perhaps that they were. Maybe they did a little bit more Wayne's World, but it seemed balanced to me for how big. They were more famous than the hosts, a lot of them. Definitely. But that's, that is what happens when you have Phil and Jan on the cast with them who are so good on the show. Like in the in the

Will Ferrell era he was not only producing blockbuster movies eventually like he'll have old school and he'll be on SNL at the same time like he is um if I forgot that right like I think he's also uh like he's doing stuff outside the show but also on the show but like I think like his supporting cast members are not as high quality as having like Phil and Jan at the same time as Wayne's World is out. Yeah I mean definitely I mean it was an amazing cast, was an amazing group of people. Let's get him back to Phil Hartman, because it's the 93-94 season, and he talks to TV guide, and sometimes people get too comfortable with journalists, perhaps, you know, he didn't think it was on the record. Perhaps he just did not care anymore. And he, you know, he basically was talking about they needed to get, I believe this was the interview. We might have said it the following year, but he definitely did an interview. where he was talking about some, I'm not going to mention who,

but some of the bad boys, people who you mentioned, just, you know, that they were really thrust in them that season and he didn't think it was working. He did suggest maybe more groundlings, people and things like that. But I think he said in the TV guide interview

that they were on the Titanic, that was, I believe what he said. And it's one of those things where I've talked to people away from the podcast, and I've read the things where I've never heard of a show, show where if somebody does an interview that it gets back to everybody at the show and they take it so personally. I, it's just, I mean, according to Phil, and I think Lauren has talked about

this. Yeah, Lauren wasn't talking to Phil at that point and it was, wasn't getting this a lot of stuff on. Yeah. Well, I would say that the culture of communicating with the media was stronger then than it is now. Like, yes, like we, we can, you know, you get to see cast members on podcasts and all that stuff. But I believe at the time, Lorne would do press conferences with the cast and then journalists would show up to 8H to like ask questions. And I think that the culture at the time was like sort of, it was a little bit of a free for all in terms of what people could say. I don't know how the PR department truly worked on a day to day there. But that would never fly now. Like they would never be a cast member now who would be able to say like, ah, the show is not doing great while

they're on it. And I think that for the show to maintain itself into the future, like, these are things that maybe they should look back into because I think that, you know, you can love Saturday Night Live while it's bad. Like, it's not like people, as soon as the show is not doing great, that we're all going to turn off the TVs and not watch it. Like, there's something interesting about bad SNL. And I think that, like, they, the show should continue to trust the audience that they would stick around. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely one of those things where, I mean, the audiences were still there, but I just, the ratings were dipping a little bit.

They were having trouble, they started having a little bit of trouble getting, getting hosts. But if I'm looking right here, and they had some really tough shows, that Alec Baldwin-Basinger's show, I remember was tough. Overall, they, Martin Lawrence was another episode. that was not great and got attention for all the wrong reasons because of the monologue being you know uh i get the in reruns they couldn't show it i mean it was um and then second worst rated show of the season by the way i have all the ratings for every episode from i thought i came back like helen hunt i thought was a really really strong show i was there for that

one um i mean they didn't let anybody in for dress rehearsal or live show but i got i was able to know people to get in that i was back in the it was in the green room over the look in the studio for that one was the fourth highest rated show that season it was really really that was a solid show and then you know i thought i was there also for kelsey grimmer i thought was a little tough amelia west of as i think it was jason patrick quality in terms of the audience's reaction to things i mean oh my goodness they even in the that michael fay cold open um in the news it was big that this gentleman in singapore an american tourist i forget if he littered or what he did but he was getting caned and it was a big it was a big deal and they did this cold open

and they um at the very very end it's like i have some good news and i have some bad news the bad news is live from new york at saturday night or something acknowledging that the show was not good david mandel has said during um they were still working on the monologue during i believe that when part i was doing the credits i mean it was just in terms of audience silence it was rough that show. Yeah, it was like the doggays of this season, and I think that there was a little bit of a crisis as to what they were going to do moving forward, and I think part of, you know, when you get to this point, I'm sure that the panic meter is set in, and they're like,

okay, we need a couple of good shows before the end of the season to finish strong, and then we'll figure out what to do for next year. Yeah, Pearl Jam was there, and they were so hot. And again, I mean, nobody's going to get into that show for standbys. And it was just, Amelia Westef has, there's some, actually it's on YouTube. They have like some rehearsal footage of him. Do inter, and doing promos with Lauren off camera giving him notes. And it's like, can you do it a little bit more upbeat or a little bit? I think they have that with the Barclay episode too with Nirvana.

And there's absolutely no change in Amelia Westefez as low energy on those promos that I saw. can you do it a little bit more up each share hi i'm amelio estav has and it was just it was really fun do you know what uh amelia estabas has uniquely uh for him as an snal host that nobody else has oh goodness let's see um maybe that his father hosted is because his brother was on with him um those are the and his brother hosted as well oh yeah never thought about they had charlie scheme that was yeah oh my goodness january of 2000 something like that yeah i remember i was um yeah i wanted to say though, that that season, as rough as it was, you had Heather Lockler come in, and overall, yes, she was looking at the cue cards and she was criticized for that, but other than looking

at the cards, that show was really strong. The flirt, which was Steve Corrin, which was a draw, they would, um, I think it's a potentially a top 50 show of all time. It was really, really strong. I mean, the pasta maker, Fred Wolfe, um, it was a phenomenal, phenomenal show. And it's, It was tough because you have this and it's like, what can they do this the rest of the season? And then I was in my head was like, okay, they're going to come back then the next season and it's going to be like this.

They figured it out and they had even more problems the following season. Why do some things that stand out with the following season that maybe they could have done differently or looking back, were you optimistic? I was optimistic. I really was that they were going to figure it out. I thought it was just one season.

They were going to be like, okay, we're going to. Well, I almost feel like there's parallels between what Lauren decided to do and what Dick Ebersol did in season 10, which was like, we're in a little bit of a transition and let's hire some well-known performers to, you know, get in the mix here. Yes. And, like, that to me worked really well. with Marty and, you know, like, and Christopher Gets and all those guys, like, for, for a time. But I don't know that the ones that they put in here remotely had the stage presence and confidence

to be able to pull off what they didn't see the test. They didn't have the versatility as performers. And I think you're absolutely right. They were said that this is what we're going to do. We're going to replicate this. And whenever they've tried to do that, it just hasn't, to me, it hasn't worked. And I just remember being there for that show and they do that Clinton. audition cold open, which is so funny and being like, they have the show back. And then

Steve Martin comes after the monologue. And it's really, really rough from there on the rest of the show. I mean, it was, I was backstage for it. I mean, that was the first time I was ever there and stuff. And just, I mean, I was just waiting. And it was, uh, it just, I don't know. I mean, I remember the commercial that he did, the Steve Martin penis cream was got lots of laughs. And Norm on update, for his first effort, I thought, did a very good job. But overall, I thought it was a really, really tough episode. Yeah. So when you were backstage, like, did you hear anything interesting about Norm hosting update for the first time? Like, were you, like, did anybody was like, oh my God, that was an amazing debut? There wasn't any time for that. I can't believe

I'm going to talk about this, but I'll do this. So I got up to the green room, which was on the ninth floor where it overlooks the studio before they let the audience. And it was between dress and live. And there's probably maybe, I don't know, like 70, maybe eight. It was like probably maybe 10, 15 or so, something like that. And there was no audience loaded in yet. And I walk in the green room and it's Norm Janine Garvlo and Chris Elliott.

and they're all in the green room smoking. Norm is in his leather jacket, and there's, it's complete silence other than they nod at me and Janine. I, you know, for other reason, she kind of knew who we had met each other and stuff.

And she's like, oh, wow, I just spilled water. Sorry, Christine. And she's like, oh, my goodness, you're in a suit, she said to me,

because I was with some friends in some suits. And I do want to go on the record. We were not supposed to be backstage, where we were on eight. but I yeah they were just all completely calm you could not tell that norm was about to you know take over update Janine was extremely concerned she did a sketch at dresser rehearsal called Bankline which I asked her about and at that point she's like did you see it did you see it what did what did you hear and I said I don't I just had heard that that you had

done this sketch it was her and Chris Elliott and it turned out it was cut but this was before they got they found out what was going to get in and what was going to get up but she was extremely concerned with my opinion. And I was just an 18-year-old kid that just moved here from the city, from Hershey, Pennsylvania. I have no idea. And, yeah, they were just smoking, and it was just very, very chill. And Norm MacDonald, I was with my friends. And I said, they both left.

I said, Norm, is there any way you could take us downstairs to eight? And he said, follow me. And Norm is all about anarchy and about doing things he's not supposed to do. And the suit saved us 100%. I mean, that's what got us down there. But you couldn't just walk down there? Because like eight and nine are connected. I didn't know how to get down there back then.

There were no shows or anything back then on how, I mean, I guess if you had reruns from certain episodes back in the day where they would kind of show the different floors and things. But there's like no stairs that like are right off the side of the studio that basically like, Because the cast members are going up and down all the time. I didn't know that. That's where Norm took us down those stairs. And that's, like, I had no idea that's the way that you get down there.

I mean, the stairs are so, I think you've been over there. The stairwell is so, like, a regular stairwell. It's not decorated. It's like, it's like, so normal. You would not think that it was a normal, like, I looked at it. And it's like, I would think that it would be aligned with, like, gold or, like, glamorous photos. And it's not. So it didn't occur to me that this would be the way to get down to the eighth floor.

So, yeah, we're in the green room. And then next to the green room is Lauren's office, which I'd never been in at all. And that's where the A-listers and the alcohol is flowing in the food. We're in the green room without any water, no drinks, no food. I'm just there just to see the show. It's an amazing pristine view. And the cast and certain writers are coming in every so often just to see their and interact with them.

But, yeah, Norm took us down that stairwell, and we were down. Now, back then, there was a bench or a couch, and it was where they would show the show where there would be, like, across from there would be, like, the craft service with a coffee maker, and it's exactly where they did the Dennis Miller cold open with George Went, where it was his final show. They would show it on certain monologues where they would go backstage. It would be where Mariel Hemingway, when she hosted the Will Ferrell's first show where she She was walking around, and there was this one area, and I was with Don Pardo and Andy Murphy,

who was the token older gentleman, who was in every sketch is the older person. And it was just us and my friends and were glued to this bench. And I'm just praying that I do not get kicked out because this is my dream that I'm 18 backstage at Saturday Night Live. And I just couldn't believe that we were there. And I was just taking it all in because, again, there was no YouTube or anything where I'm like, How do they put this show together? What is going on?

And I'm literally watching. You know, right by there, you can see, like, they have a vanity mirror with all the lights, which is still right there. And we're watching them get made up. And they have those cubicles where they can kind of, like, duck in and stuff. They have their names on where they do the quick changes. And it was basically, like, watching my own reality show that season premiere. And then all these, like, famous people that are coming down that are passing us.

to go see Lorne and I'm like I had zero self-control back then or very little self-control for famous people so it's like a list celebrity comes by I'm like oh hi mr whoever misses shake their hand so I can tell everybody in Hershey I met this person I mean it's embarrassing to look back but our suit saved us 100% okay so people don't realize how little security there is during a Saturday Live episode it is last and I say this like with with love the show it's very funny there's like security obviously right outside the studio like no one's like running in like there's no um you know chair and stone like a situation that's going to happen but uh when you're backstage and you are like inside you have permission to be there somebody

brings you up from downstairs you're allowed to be in somebody's dressing room essentially it is like a mini cocktail party happening like there at least that's my experience now where like at one point like i had a drink i was hanging out with some people and then i was like oh i wanted to go see a different cast member who i had known and gotten to know a little bit better so i just like left the dressing room on eight, walked by myself down the hall, walked up on nine, walked by other writers and cast members like Colin Jokes is walking by me. Oh, hey man, like Mikey, like I'm talking to them. And I'm like, this is so insane because I could basically do whatever I want right now. I can't go on TV, but I could do whatever it was. It was definitely if you could get

up there for the most part, it was like that. I mean, there weren't even the wristbands back then. I mean, and there weren't, the employees were not wearing lanyards. So, or badges. So, I mean, it was it was definitely a very unique time and i was lucky i was fortunate i've gotten i got to watch the show from those that point of view um a bunch of times but like to be there for that and to kind of in real time just see people pass by us and given us high fives after sandler did gill whatever his character on update with the rock star um he was the rock went yeah yeah he comes by and is given us high fives and it's like you know just he had just been there and And it's like, it was just so surreal to be there.

And it was one of those things where I need to get here as soon as humanly impossible back here. But it was a tough show. I mean, it was a top. And I was, the following week was with Marista May. I thought was another tough show. But then with Travolta, I think that that was one of the strongest shows. I mean, maybe that was the strongest show of this season. I mean, I thought it was just from the cold open.

where they did the Welcome, the Saturday Night Fever Cold Open to that brilliant, brilliant piece with, I think, at Good Nights, I think it was a David Mandel thing where they break the form and they do a whole Greece song parody thing at Good Nights, which was absolutely brilliant. I thought that that was just another one where I'm just like, please let it stay in this direction. Oh, it was one of the best shows they had in a while. And I think it's arguably one of the best shows of the season. I'd say like there's a couple others in contention. But that ending was very like original era coded. It had like Desi Arnaz vibes of we're going to go around the studio. We're going to end this. Like this is an event. It's not so formulaic. And I think that that that was something that I think the show should have taken note of more in this season of like if we're going to feel or we're going to potentially be trying to stabilize this thing. We need to be more experimental with the type of stuff that we do.

and Travolta, like, had that energy to be able to do that. And I think he was supposed to host years before, but then it didn't work out and he finally did this one. Yeah, I mean, they definitely, they nailed it on this one and just, I mean, and that for them, this is what I love about SNL. For them to do something called Quentin Tarantino's Welcome Back, Cotter, Quentin Tarantino was not at this point a known entity. He really, really wasn't.

Pulpiction had opened the day before, and it was, he was still very underground. And for them to take Welcome Back Conner, which was established and play to the top of their intelligence, I give them so much credit because I know the people, majority of the people that are watching are not getting that, you know, Mr. Whatever they were doing with, you know, with reservoir dogs. But it still played on a level, but I really appreciated that their intelligence. And then after this, you know, Dana Carvey comes back with Robert Smigel. there was some there was some good stuff but i still it was definitely you know it was a mixed show and then sarahs was though i think uh was like a oh yes steve coran yes that was that was um a killer sketch and i believe let's see i believe dana said that that was that what that sketch took place in no man's land whatever they call it something else i forget what it is but it's the place where

nobody wants to do their sketch because someone calls it a can alley i think it's called yes and that's where i believe where they did the what was it the cowbell sketch yeah and um anybody that thinks that that's the factor that a sketch isn't going to play i've seen sketches played there if something's funny it's going to play i don't understand this obsession with home base i guess it's they think that that's going to that for whatever reason has the best chance of this sketch succeeding but i've seen sketches that are almost like 80% like no view from the audience kill um but for whatever reason people are obsessed. But to me, Sarah, Jessica Parker, Jason Patrick vibes, I was like, oh, gosh, from the very cold open, I was like, this is, this is not going to go well. And it just was really, really hard. And again, you would never see this now with silences. I mean, just sketches with complete silences. It was, it was, it was, it was hard. I think she was a last minute replacement host for Juliette Lewis. Lorne was not there, the majority of the week. His second child, was just born. So there was that. Michael O'Donoghue had just died and everyone had gone to

like the, I guess the funeral and the celebration of life that they had for him. It was just like there was a darkness over the week that I think was not great. And then on top of it all, this is the episode that has that Munchkin land sketch where Janine almost quits because she doesn't want to do it. So I think it is chaos. I thought it was okay. I mean, when Sarah Jessica Parker, as Glinda says, I'm really pissed off. I got a big laugh, which was the only laugh, I think, maybe in the entire sketch. It was rough. Again, you have R-E-M, and you had people that were camping out. I didn't camp out, but there were people that were obsessed more to be in, to see R-A-M, which you don't want people. You want people that are there to see the cast, ideally, but again,

no stand-byes. They did three songs, which was extremely rare on air back then, and it was it just didn't work. I mean, and there were, because I was outside there for part of it, there were people, the VIPs that were there that should not have been there. There were multiple ones, I'm not going to mention who they were that were intoxicated, that when they got there between dress and live, and it was, they had to, I guess, feel like they were famous, they had to let them in, but there were people that should not have been there that were not fans of the show,

that were there to see R.E.M. clearly, and they suffered the consequences, in my opinion. Yeah, it's a weird show. It's like, there's a few in this season that I would say, like, there's four or five that I think are the notorious season 20 shows, and this is the first one of them. I would say, though, that the John Totoro quiz show monologue, again, brilliant. I mean, it was so funny. I mean, there are certain things where, you know, to, Turro had some good things here and there, but then you go to Roseanne, which was, I mean, you know, it was a train wreck. Yes, Sandler, the Hanukkah song. This is where when I talk to people that say that this was this year was horrible, I say that's not true. There were a lot of

hard shows. Roseanne was one of them, but I still say I could put together a best of, of, of this season, and it's still, if I do a best of better than 90% of the best of other seasons, subsequently, if they were not relying on digital shorts and videotape. That is a very hot take. If they're only doing live sketches, because they couldn't do digital shorts back then, if they had the ability to do three digital shorts, an episode, which is so much easier to be able to edit something together than do a live show. I mean, I know you're looking skeptical, but there were seasons.

This is a little bit of a crazy take, Mark. There were seasons when Andy Sandberg was doing the digital shorts, where I would ask fans that were obsessed with the digital. digital shorts. Okay, fine. Those were, those are really funny. And I agree. Tell me the live sketches that you thought were really solid this season. And they would struggle. That, I mean, that would speak volumes. The political stuff was strong, but I would ask other sketches. I would say, what do you think is really, really, the last time they did a sketch that was really, really, and they would have a tough time with that. There were, that's, you don't, you disagree with that

philosophy? I do. Because I think, like, again, I'll defend my era, but I'll say, like, I think when Seth takes over from Tina and quarterbacks the era, they do some really experimental things, especially in season 32, which is probably my favorite season in the history of the show. Especially with the entire cast, there's the song memory sketches that Brian Tucker used to do with Sadecas,

like where they would all come into the chorus and then they would all sing it together. Those were some of my favorites. The airport security seminar sketch, I remember from season 32 episode one is like one of my favorites that they've done. The Bronx Speed sketches with Maya and Amy. I thought that those were like really well written and good stuff.

I mean, again, it's like a different era. Do I think that like, would I say that this era for live sketches is the best era? Definitely not. Like, I think that the second golden era, the one previous to what we're talking about here, is the one that I think leads the pack in terms of great writing in terms of live sketches. But I think there's like a really solid balance. But to say that the best stuff in season 20 is like better than the best stuff. of the 90% of the history show, to me, it's like wild.

I would, I'll go through this season, and I'll tell you what I would, what I would put in, and if we showed people, and I would be so interested to see how it would play. I would put the Clinton audition cold open, um, is something at the Steve Martin commercial. I'm a bunch of the Travolta pepper boy. Um, I put in, uh, San, um, Sanler's Hanukkah song, which still is played today every single year. Um, I would put in possibly, Fred Wolfe's piece with David High Pierce with little women. I thought the Bob Newhart, the very

end, was brilliant for people that really got that joke, which was another David Mandel piece. I thought that John Goodman, so much of the John Goodman when he was there with Dan Aykroyd was unbelievable. I thought Smigles' Damon Wayne's sketch was really

funny with the summer camp. People still, to this day, with the Coveney, with the Zaggatz or Zaget's Gauts with Barley and Sandler, which I thought when I watched it, I was like, this is okay. But people for whatever reason, and it wasn't a classic when it came up by any means. I'm telling you, looking at back. It gets like the special treatment of the like things get replayed in curated packages

and then they become more famous because of that. I think so those are just some ones off the top of my head. You forgot Japanese game show. Yes, Andy Breckman. I wish they had Andy Breckman. the entire season that would have been i i don't andy breckman is him and george minor in terms of them not being on staff full time for only like maybe a season or two the amount of of home runs that they they both had unbelievable but yeah that's it that's another one is a change to your take

which is that um there's a lot of people who feel that season 20 is the worst season in the history of the show like there's the notoria season 6 11 and 20 that people talk about as being the worst seasons I think that you can argue that the live material in season 20 or the best of the live material in season 20 catapults it out of being the worst season ever. But I think it would be a far stretch to say that this season's best live sketches are better than 40 other seasons. I think if you did a best of, if you could take 10s, maybe, maybe I'm wrong and stuff. But I think if you took the best of and you just take the edits and you take the stinkers out, I don't know. maybe I'm wrong on that but well you know we did our curated sketch list when we were releasing this about like what I felt were or what we felt were the essential best in sleeper sketches

and I'll tell you like just in terms of live sketches like I put best as Quentin Territino's Welcome Back Cotter, Pepper Boys and Japanese game show were my best they were brilliant they're really good stuff the uh the sleeper sketches we had were the multiple personality sketch that was I think from the Roseanne show it was yeah that uh that one Martin Luther King Day from the January 14th, season 20 episode 10, and then the Denver airport sketch with Chris Elliott, the one that's like super meta about him leaving the show. Norm, yeah, Norm Hescock. No, there were some brilliant ones.

To go back to that Heather Lockler with, I think it was Smigel that wrote the sound of music so long farewell sketch, which was absolutely killed. That season two as well, if I did a best of. I mean, there were so many funny sketches. It was just, there was some, the show had never been. in a place where with some of those episodes individually and stuff. But, I mean, again, they're, I mean, this Michael basically told me even in Gene Daman, there were good sketches.

So, I mean, it just, the writers and the actors at this point were not working together. They did not gel. And, you know, when they were working together, it's always the best. And it just, it seems like sometimes, like, I feel like right now they're maybe a little bit more of a writer show or maybe that maybe it's maybe it's a good cohesive show but whenever i felt like when christin wigg was there will pharaoh when they were getting pushed it became more of the cast and less about the writers like um yeah like tom tom davis told me when they started the show and when they were with phil hartman the writers were that the actors were there to

serve the writers it was about the writers and that's what the main thing was during the original cast during the Phil Hartman years and then subsequently after that with Will Ferrell and McKin and all that the shift changed and it became the opposite

where yeah that it kind of turned do you see that I would say that the I see like the alliances between the writers and the cast members

were much stronger in the earlier seasons where in modern times the like a loyal writer who knows how to write in a specific cast member's voice doesn't exist as much like you have the mike streeter duo they're amazing yeah and that's like that is so like old school to have somebody who's dedicated who writes for you and you're this duo one's a performer one's an actor and like you have

that there um not to say that mickey doesn't write or but just to you know characterize it but now there's so many people and i we interview like a lot of them who get like the one season run and then they're done. They're one and done's. And they come on and they say that the single biggest reason they think they didn't stay is because they couldn't find that writer to connect to. It's really, really hard when you go in. I mean, even Chris Elliott, when he was established and famous, said he expected all these people to write for him and they didn't. I mean, it does seem like that alliance thing. I talked to somebody that was over there as a writer and he said, you have to take the walk of shame when you're a writer and just knock on the doors on Tuesdays. I mean, like,

do you want to, will you write with me? And you're asking somebody. out. Well, it's crazy because, like, Andrew Dismukes was writing some brilliant pieces. He was a former writer, still writes, but he then became a cast member. And then last season on the show, season 49, he was paired with August White and a newer writer. And she is so smart and such a good writer. And they were writing some really great stuff together. And then she gets promoted to writing supervisor. So she sort of like spread more thin. And I could see in Andrew, who appeared a ton of times on the show, quantity-wise, this season. But we lost. some of the things that were written in his own voice. And that was like an underlying storyline

that we saw in season 50. It's so interesting now. I absolutely didn't know that. I mean, yeah, you need to get that alliance. And there were certain people that when one writer left, they were done. Julia Sweeney, when Christine Zander left, I mean, was done. I mean, she said she had a great experience up until 93, 94. And she said, Lauren wanted her to stay. And she quit. And that season, And it's just really, really stinks because, I mean, Julia Sweeney had some great stuff when she was on the show for the three years, roughly three, yeah, the three, those up to those three seasons and those good memories. And that season, I mean, she had to fight to get, she said to get on Patrick Stewart, she did, I think it was the last sketch of the night, which didn't do great. I think the audience by then was really tired. And, I mean, it was really, back then, anything if you got laughs after update was considered a huge success. I mean, it was definitely harder after update for anything to do well. But yeah, that was definitely, she is an example of one of those people where I still can't believe with everybody that they hired. I mean, she kind of said that there were all these young people that they hired Harvard people and they just, it was a jet that they looked at her. She said that one of them

looked at her, like, Grandma Moses, who I look up the reference, Grandma Moses, actual person. But yeah, it just, it just, it just, it was really, really tough for that, just to see her that. And I would say Melanie Huntsville also. They weren't hiring a lot of women to write for the show either. They weren't. They brought in, they had, they brought in Marilyn Miller who did not get a lot of stuff on. They brought in another person who I'm not going to mention who I don't think she, they were there one year. And I don't think that they ever, to my knowledge, ever wrote on anything other, any show.

And I don't think they got anything on. But yeah, they were not. I don't know why they didn't hire some ground lanes or some second city people. But it just, yeah, they didn't hire many women. And Melanie Hustle didn't have much. The final push that she had was when Nicole Kidman hosted and they gave her her own sketch, which was before update at the bar where the whole joke is she. thinks that these guys are heading on her and she's like, I'm married. But they made her up to look

like not attractive. And they're all heading on Nicole Kidman, but she's like, thanks that they're heading on her. And it did okay. But that was the last push that she got that whole entire season. Maybe they gave her a Jan Brady on update, which played okay. But I mean, that was just a rough, rough place to be. I think for everybody, but definitely the ladies were not getting a lot of stuff on. Yeah, definitely. And then you could imagine you being like, Laura Kightlinger or Jenny Garoflo and coming into this season 20 where there's basically no women to write for you at all. I mean, Laura Kightlander had the hardest thing of all time, which is it was announced to the trades that she was going to be doing update with Norm

McDonald. I mean, it was going to happen and Norm for whatever reason. I don't know what the timing was or if it was that they wanted to do this, but that it got leaked. I don't know if they formally announced it, but it got on the trays that they were going to do update together. Norm has said, he said, I'm not doing it with somebody. He said, you know, I would rather give it to

Franken if I'm not doing it by myself. And it's so amazing, I think that this guy did this because he was his second season on the show and he had zero leverage whatsoever in that he would, somebody, can you imagine today that somebody would turn down a weekend update, a stand-up?

Because anybody that's a stand-up, that's the gig that you want, this weekend update. And the fact that he said he would rather just not do it and that I think it was even during that week, the production week, because they would normally start like a week before the actual first production week. And I think it was days leading up that they still weren't sure if it was going to be Kightliner and him. But I mean, gosh, she was on Stern, I believe, talking or she did some interview saying not

great stuff about Norm and. I'm guessing that that would be maybe one of the reasons that could be off yeah I could imagine honestly I think history like shows that that was probably the right decision regardless um but yeah I mean it just like there was no supportive environment for something like that like there was no Tina Faye who comes in and it was like well why don't we write sketches that are that have like four women in them you know like it's just it wasn't we were still a few years away from that they needed her. I remember Laura Kightlander did an update. I think it was the first show and it was it was went well. I thought it went okay but I remember like the daily news saying

this was the worst thing we have ever seen on the show which is ridiculous to say. I mean it's it was just mean for everything that's been on this show. It was like Ann Risley-esque like there was nothing there that was like oh her personality was able to come out and shine and like I get There's a lot of reasons why that it got to that point, but I don't think it fully would have worked. Anybody that's a first time person that's going out there where they do not know who you are, it's going to be really tough. I mean, there's a few people have been able to break that.

But when America is getting to know you, and I still go back to this because I think it's just so funny that people have such short memories that how much Colin Jost, how long it took that guy to get over. with the public. Reminds me of Conan O'Brien. I mean, they're both Harvard guys. They were both thrust in without really much performing experience. I mean, Conan had took some improv and Colin was doing a little stand-up, but they were put in front of the public. The public did not accept them, and it just took them a while to figure out. I still cannot believe that they made Colin, and he wrote this in his book, that they made him after his first year of update, re-odition for the job. And, and

Lauren said publicly, he said, you know, there were people that would say, what do you think of Colin? And it was Cecily at first that was doing it. What do you think? And, and Norm's, Lauren said to the person, oh, it doesn't work. It's not working right now. You know, it's going to take time. And he was completely frank. And it was one of those things where sometimes, you know, you definitely just have to give the person time to grow into it. And then sometimes it doesn't work. And I'm not going to mention names, but they weren't able to make it work. But it took, how long do you think it took Colin for the audience to really get into him? I think it took a couple seasons. I mean, I think he was good. You know, I think he really got more comfortable the second

season. But in terms of the audience to get excited, it took a while. Yeah. I'm going to say it was part way through season 40, so into his second season doing it. I think he did like, it wasn't joke swap but he did something with Che that really the chemistry like they weren't just doing jokes in silos like it really got to a point where they were communicating to each other and I think that that changed it where there was actual chemistry there because like when he was on with Cecily he was very Seth Meyer's light you know he told the jokes with a similar cadence to the way that Seth did it he was just seen as like okay obviously Seth was there with successfully earlier in the season and it was just like now this new person is there and it took a while

and i think that him and chay had a friendship that started to develop and then once they built that natural chemistry like that was happening off screen and they brought it on screen i think it really helps people um i would say watching it live like i probably didn't notice how great they were getting until season 41 so i would say like i took it into his third season doing it But it probably somewhere around season 40 that things started to click and they started to find what worked. It's an amazing success story. And I'm so glad that they were able to keep him because if you had interference from a network, I don't know if the network would have kept him. I mean, they wanted Andy Richter gone from Conan on day one.

And, you know, it just was another thing where him and Conan just needed some time to figure that thing out. And when you put somebody that has, you know, America doesn't know who you are on update, it's tough. I think it took, I thought Tina got her pretty quickly, I have to say. She was a rarity. I mean, that is extremely, extremely rare. She was that good. Tina started out extremely strong. Like, one of the strong starts to any update performer ever.

And then I think over time, Jimmy got better. and maybe she like dropped her like she lost some steam off her fastball towards the end of update but i think it's tough because i think jimmy you know he was just having fun and goofing around a little bit and did a great job but tina the responsibility of being headwriter and the amount of hours that she was putting in the details to the show and to do that update job is unbelievable that she was able to do that and that set was still able to be head writer and not have all his focus it's it's i I really can't believe how they were able to manage that

and like I would hear that Seth would in between dress and error you know you would think you would be I would want to focus entirely on update and he's still you know change this or rewriting other people's sketches and it just shows you how good I mean his skill set I think he's the

yeah it's just a I love like Tina's legacy at the show is is so important but when she does leave to go do 30 Rock and Seth takes over, there is this, like, refreshing vibe to the show that just feels, like I said, a little bit experimental, and his footprints are all over that for a few seasons. And that's why, like, I think 32 to 34, even though there's a writer strike in the middle, it's like one of the strongest runs in the show's history. Yeah, I mean, I think that thing that he wrote for,

was it, what was it, was it, Eli Manning or was it Peyton Manning where he wrote that, that film piece with the kids was really, really funny. Yeah. I thought that was my favorite episode of all time, by the way. It was really, really strong. And then you have John Lutz and Will Forte who wrote, is that the one where they dance? Yeah, the locker motivation, the halftime. Yeah, I've met lots a couple times and I told him just, I think that that is, I mean, when you look at Forte's, the spelling be certain things where I'm like, nobody would come up with that and be able to dance. And I loved hearing from Lutz that it went from how mild it was in dress rehearsal compared to on air where Forte just made it really big and that did not exist

address with how big the movements he was doing as the coach. Yeah. It's an amazing episode, by the way. Smigel writes like an incredible TV funhouse called Maraca, which was Adora the Explorer parody. There's Bronx Beat in there, which I'm a big fan of. There was the, what else? Oh, yeah, he did Tim Calhoun on update.

There's a really, really good Lutz and Kristen Wig piece. called Porch Talk, where she, again, demonstrates how good of an actor she is, opposite of Payton. That episode is, like, it's arguable that, like, there's no duds in that episode. There are certain episodes I would put, and I don't know if you feel this, I'd say, Alec Baldwin and Paul McCartney is definitely a top 10 for me. There's certain episodes where just from top to bottom are unbelievable. And then you have some, like the best cold open ever with Steve Martin, James Taylor from December of 91. And then after that, it just goes the rest of the show for the most part goes down.

Here's a fun exercise, Mark, I'll ask you, because we just, we did, we're doing the summer on the Saturday Night Network, the top 50 greatest episodes of all time. We put out a poll. We asked people to fill out a forum. We're counting them down every week. So I don't, I know the results. I don't want to reveal them here for people who, if there's crossover listeners. But I'm curious from you, if you had to guess what the top three, episodes that were voted on in the history of the show. What do you think they were?

It depends. I don't, I'd have to look at your demos because if there's anybody your age, it's going to, even though you know everybody that's been on the show, they're for the most part, people your age, they are not going to know Garrett Morris is. They couldn't tell you who Melanie Hatzel was. And I don't think that for people to be, if people are voting on this, they need to have a knowledge of the entire, the entire history of the show. Do you agree or not? I agree. I will tell you that the voting indicates that people had a great knowledge of the history of the show. Wow. You know, I don't know.

I mean, I think maybe Steve Martin and the Blues Brothers, I thought, was strong. I think that was 78. I think, goodness, I'd really have to look back at everybody who hosted. I thought Alec Baldwin, McCartney was really good. I think you mentioned one particular. episode recently we were talking to I forget who it was um that it was it was very um it was very important with um some of the the sketches that they went that um that they did i forget who it was perhaps jack black and ely young yes that's who i thought that that that was extremely extremely

strong um i'd have to look i thought that it was it el was it elion mann or was it painted man painted manning right manning we're just talking about yeah yeah that was extremely strong as well Those are the ones that maybe stand out. Am I close on any of them? Maybe not. Yeah, I mean, the ones that you said are definitely getting there. I don't want to reveal the exact results, but you got them. There's a couple that I think you'd be interested and fascinated that we could probably

have a larger conversation about it once we reveal all the results publicly. Yeah, I mean, there's, again, again, if you go before, I would say maybe like before the sketch is bombed, I feel like, isn't that like a funny thing? Like, you could have the show before when sketches bombed and then you have when sketches don't bombed. It's like the two, the two eras of, um, I, what do you, can you pinpoint when that happened by the way? When what happened?

Sketches stopped bombing. Um, I would say, uh, I would say, I would say, I would say sketches still bomb, but the studio will still laugh. So like, even in the finale of the Scarlet Johansson episode that we just watched, there was, a really bad sketch. Is that the sketch that was the Mr. Willoughby one where they're doing? Is it takeoff of Jane Austen? Well, it was, maybe we're thinking of the same one.

It was the one like the intimacy coordinators. Is that the one? No, I was thinking of a different one that didn't do well when it aired, but it killed when they did it at UCB with Tina and Rachel Dredch when they did Dratch and Faye, but it died on air. was Scarlet Johansson. Oh, no, sorry. Yeah, that's from 2006.

I'm talking about the Scarlett Johansson episode that, like, just air at the finale of season 50. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I'm saying, like, even now, like, there was a sketch that, like, it was an intimacy coordinator sketch. It was an absolute mess. And watching it, I was like, wow, this is a contender for the war sketch of the season. And the audience, like, still, like, you hear chuckles because, like, that's what happens

now. But, like, everyone was agreeing with that was bad. It's extremely rare, though, for something like that just to get chuckles. Like, they'll laugh at almost anything. I mean, it's, you're right. I mean, if your definition of a bomb is like, is, uh, the studio will laugh no matter what, like, or sorry, or the studio won't laugh, then I will say that's probably been going on since we've gotten to like the HD era.

So like from like in like the 2005-ish. Because I think the last time I could really remember like dud episodes that there's no energy is in like season 30. Yeah, you see like, it's amazing to get. it's Steve Martin and Hank's the best host and still, after update, they would do these amazing sketches and it was just the audience for whatever reason. They just, I don't know, it was definitely a really tough effort. Once in a while, and then at the end of dress rehearsals, because you've been to the show many times, usually they put the sketch at the very end where

they don't think it's going to do well. I don't want to say that always, but maybe the least confident. And I wish I could have been there for Molly Shannon doing Mary Catherine Gallagher, a dress, at Gabriel Byrne, the very last sketch, which normally is the death slot where the audience is completely dead and it just explodes. Have you ever been there for dress and seen one of those sketches at the end of the show do well? Normally, if they get cut, I've seen them get cut. I don't usually go to dress, but I have a lot of friends that do. and sometimes the dress show is like way better than the air show all the time that that can happen back when the will feral was there

I would talk to some of the writers and they would say we had an amazing dress and the live show for whatever reason it's so strange I wish they with Mikey Madison's show this season where I was getting like a ton of texts of like get ready this is going to be great and then the live show was like what are we talking about it's so strange you get the same you know the same this would happen with with comedy with standups we'll say you do the two shows the same material that you do it the same way and it's just two audiences and one a lot you know just never know the circumstances of uh of everything but i'm glad

we got to talk about the show there's very few people um we need to get bill carter back um maybe some people like dan pastorneck who else are a few other people that can talk like this with you like you and me other than maybe getting someone like smigle on uh well yeah there's a lot of we have a lot of great personalities in this hiring network that are really experienced uh that are as nerdy as us on SNL yeah i've reached out to the uh around the world and found some of us uh but bill kenny is a guy who co-hosts with me uh this countdown that we're doing all summer long and he is just incredible with this stuff there's a lot of people out there who who talk our language um even the writers yeah yeah definitely i mean uh andrew

I'll give him credit. I love that guy from That Week and S&L. We have a lot of fun together, but he knows more about the S&L writers than a lot of people that I know. That's the stuff I'm interested. And I know that we both are still, there's certain sketches where we're still trying to figure out who wrote what and it's this obsession with certain people and stuff. But I would love for, yeah, hopefully. But I'll do this again with you anytime you want, Mark, because for me, like I think there is, S&L is the perfect show for podcasting. It is just truly there's so many storylines. I know we didn't even go through every episode in season 20,

but obviously the downhill there will continue and continue. And then that will be a quite good. I want to go on record saying that I, Kristen Wigg, there were really funny sketches with the writing. I don't know. I just think that the writing wasn't as, it wasn't as emphasized as much as it was the ground lanes,

the big characters and stuff. And I think as somebody that was watching for the writing, I think that that was tough sometimes. but you're allowed to value cast members based on the writing for them that's totally fine it's just not like amazing people that were writing you mentioned lots and i mean people like james anderson and paul appell have like have grand slam sketches i mean spive yeah exactly spy they yeah set like there's a lot of really good people from that area i mean the the thing is is just that like that's why in sports there's like hundreds of people that vote for a hall of fame because

like you're not. People have different opinions. That's why Seth, on the on the Vulture podcast, they asked him what was a sketch that you were jealous of that you thought that you would have thought of. And he came up with McGruber, which I was just kind of like, you know, there's certain things where I don't feel like that that is a sketch. I feel like a lot of comedy people could come up with that. Like that's just that you're doing a, um, McGuiver type parody and just making it ridiculous. But I don't understand why he would have. pick that out of all the sketches like i mean i feel it's a couple things number one i think it's probably i don't i can't get in his mind but i think it's like a there's like a blackout humor there where you

the the thread of the sketch is that as soon as forte is going to say something like super racist like it's just going to the building's going to explode and i think like they don't get that in other sketches like they don't have the opportunity to let the building explode and them end on like shock value. So I think those type of jokes, I think he probably looks at it. He's like, ah, those are really fun jokes to write for. And also, like, I think if you ask Seth, like, who, which performer he would want to write for out of, like, anybody in the history of the show, like, Forte needs to be, you know, the top of his list because he was just willing to take things further than anybody else was. He did. I just thought it was, it was,

you know, a pretty, it was fun sketch. It was just, but I did, I was like, I think, like, a lot of comedy people could have come up with that. I was just very surprised that that was the thing, where like Robert Smigel like I get points to Jack Handy like how do you come up with something like that I just and I know that that Seth does say that his guy is Jack Handy which yeah but I just I just not to take anything with away from McGruber I did not see the movie it got pretty good reviews I heard it was funny I mean at the box office do you notice how all of the greatest writers in the history of the show always point to the 10 to 1 writers as the ones that they are jealous of, like a handy sketch, the John Solomon, the John Solomon, Will Forte

duo, like, you know, they always point to the ones that get on right at the end of the show that are kind of different, kind of weird. And I think it's just that everything can become really cookie-cutter being there week to week. So to have like a writer who has like a different point of view on things, like to an extreme, I think it's very appealing for comedy writers. Yeah, for somebody to come in with the very unique voice like Will Forte is such a welcome thing. It's extremely hard to do something to put something out there that has never been done or that is so out there. And I can get why when they saw Forte, they're like, we need this guy. And it's like the most amazing success story where he turns down the show and is just like, you know what, I don't want it. I know I can't

see myself doing it. And then, you know, they're like, well, open door. And thank goodness he came back. But yeah, it's an amazing. I get why people, a lot of people will point to that cast is the greatest cast. They're just talking about those single, not talking about necessarily the writers and the cast, but just they talk about that cast about that talent. It's unbelievable. Season 32, every cast member has hosted or they're the announcer of the show or they're Keenan. And some of them have hosted and they shouldn't have maybe hosted.

Am I wrong on that? Do you think that that's fair? Maybe not. No, I mean, I don't think of, like, there's no, I mean, there's nobody there that I think, like, didn't deserve to get a shot. Not their, their episodes maybe weren't all, like, like Fred Armis's episode, to me is amazing. Sedakis' episode is amazing.

But, like, Andy Sammerk's time hosting was, like, not a great episode. It's just, like, it's kind of fun to have Andy back. So, like, I, Seth probably shouldn't have hosted, but, like, it's still fun. No, I love that with him and Paul Simon. I love that he came back and he hosted. And I love when people, like, um, I love when people like Malaney will bring in David Byrne, and people will, when they bring in, like, the people that are not, you know, under 30 and they bring specifically, they'll, they request or they'll bring in their own, like, older people. I love when Stevie Nix came in. I hope they do more of that. I think that that's very cool. And I don't know if they put the invite out to Catherine O'Hara to come back to host. But come on, people bring her back. to host. She was so good. I didn't know until I read an article that she wrote that

sketch when she hosted in, um, gosh, am I going back to October of 92, maybe with 10,000 maniacs? She wrote that the last sketch of the night, which was her as Marilyn Monroe and Nealyn is, uh, John F. Kennedy at a Halloween party. And she penned that sketch. And I had no idea until recently that she wrote that, which I don't know. I can't think of many hosts that have get attribution on on a sketch like that i mean maybe david david harbour i think he said it at the time it was lilia allen's idea for uh the the um asker the grouch the origin story um but um i thought that was pretty cool yeah it's mostly stand-ups that i think who would come in and host and then bring in their own teams and then they end up contributing to sketches more but i mean obviously

katherine had a sketch background was almost a cast member on the show i think it's just something that she held on to and wanted to do um here and had the had the chops to be able to pull it off, and Kevin was a great scene partner. So, like that, yeah, it is a really cool story. Yeah, she said it went very well at dress, and then something happened on air. I don't know. Who knows what happened? But anyway, John, thanks for doing this.

And I'm glad that we got to do this. We have to get Bill Carter back, maybe Dan Pasternak. Smigel would be good to bring in and just go through other seasons of the show. And if anybody, if you listening, have any questions for John or myself or anything, SNL or anything talk show related, please let me know. Some of you will message me privately and I try to get back to you and stuff, but if anything that we

might be able to answer and I'll work on my Mount Rush more. But John, yeah, thanks for doing this. And everyone, check out the Saturday Night Network and everybody check out Late Nighter for all of your late night needs. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode.

On Apple Podcast, please rate it and leave a review. be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday.