Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Mo Rocca

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

Mo Rocca joins Mark to discuss profiling Johnny Carson’s producer Peter Lassally, his time at The Daily Show, Sean Hayes’ advice for going on Letterman, Jon Stewart, & his new book “Roctogenarians”.   Buy Mo’s book, "Roctogenarians: Late in Life Debuts, Comebacks, and Triumphs"   Follow on X (Twitter): @MoRocca   Follow on Instagram: @mobituaries

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night presented by late-nighter.com. Today's guest is a correspondent for CBS Sunday morning comedian, journalist actor Mo Rocca. We discuss Mo profiling Johnny Carson's producer Peter LaSally, his time at the Daily show, his new book, and so much more. Now it's time to go inside late night. Mo Rock, it's good to see you. It's been a while. It's great to see you, Mark. I'm happy to be talking to you, even though we're not in the same room. Not in the same room, but we have been in the past. Yes, I believe that was you. So I have so many questions. I'm excited to talk about your new book, but one thing, I was doing a bunch of research, and I found this fascinating.

I didn't know that this was a term, but you know, you did mobituaries and, you know, you've profiled a lot of deceased people. You said that you had a friend at the New York Times, and there was this term called above the fold and below the fold if somebody passed away. And when Johnny Carson passed away in January of 2005, apparently that was a big deal within the New York Times. There was a bit of a controversy. Well, so a friend of mine who was, I'm not going to name him, because he sort of disputes this memory, but I'm sticking to my guns on this. He was an assistant managing editor there. So he was part of the group that we get together for the

layout of the front page. And they didn't end up putting Johnny Carson above the fold. And this friend where he serves washed his hands of it because he had not been in town. He had been on vacation. And

he thought it was a big mistake to put Johnny below the fold and that that actually got some complaints. It was seen as elitist to put him down below the fold. on the lower part of the front page. I love stuff like this. My friend Lisa and I, for years,

kept playing this game when people cared about print, the actual print paper itself. I hope they still care about print in some way, digital print. But we used to love to play about the fold, below the full, guessing who would go above and who would be below. And I've been wrong as often as I've been right.

But that happened. I think it also, by the way, happened with Don Hewitt, the creator, 60 Minutes. I think that there was an argument among the group of people who decide the layout. And there's a term for it, the front page editors, I guess, maybe that's it. And that the mandarins of the Times felt that John Hewitt was a dirty television person and belonged below the fold. And maybe that was sort of the thinking with Johnny Carson. Yeah, I mean, he had been off TV at that point,

at least something like 13 years, but still, it was like a media frenzy when he passed away. And I just, I didn't know that that was the term for it. I found that interesting. Yeah, above the fold. one of the things I miss most about the decline of the actual paper paper, because we can't really all have this argument, even though nobody was having it before. At least I could have pulled some people into it. A little bit different. You know, I've been fortunate to be friends with Peter Lissale for a while. And, you know, he's not a big interview person, but I can't tell you how excited he was to talk to you, but just because, first of all, he was an admirer of your work And also CBS Sunday morning was his favorite show.

So when you approached him and did it, I just, yeah, it was, he was like a little kid. I mentioned I knew you when he would actually say to me, he's like, can you find out from Mo when it's going to air? Because it took like, I think it was like seven months or something for it to actually air something like that. I don't know what it was. That was, yes, he was so excited in how it came out and everything. So you made Peter very happy. And a lot of people, millions of people that saw it, it was a wonderful profile. So Richard Lewis, I had never met him before, and he sent me a note after that piece aired about Peter LaSalle, who was one of the producers of The Tonight Show, who had gone from Arthur Godfrey to Johnny Carson, to David Letterman, to Craig Ferguson. I mean, he really was, right. I think at one point is the late night whisper. But yeah, Richard Lewis reached out to me and said, you know, I met him so many times to the years. I had no idea of his life story. Because for those who don't know, Peter LaSalle,

before he began this extraordinary career in late night. He'd been raised in Holland and had actually gone to grade school with Anne Frank and then was sent to two different concentration camps. So he'd had this whole horrible, you know, first part of his life after an idyllic childhood and then went on to this career in late night. So kind of an extraordinary life. I'm glad you were able to get it. I'm glad he said yes to you. It is one of those things where, I mean, You've met my wife, Kristen. You know, Christine. I'll just turn to her and be like, Mo is the only one I know on a major network that is profiling these older people where most of the shows would say anybody above, you know, 50 or 55, no, unless you're like maybe a former president or something, or Paul McCartney, no way. But the people that you've been able to bring back that haven't been out in the spotlight for a while, did you act to kind of, I don't want to say fight to appropriate. somebody on your show, but is it one of those things where they just creative control, whoever you want to talk to? Or do you sometimes have to really explain why they're significant

enough to get a profile on a show like this that is so much prestige? There's such a high comfort level that I have with the show and with our executive producer Rand Morrison. So it's sort of evolved. I didn't consciously set out to profile people who had already led great lives and maybe weren't top of mind for people. It became something that I just really enjoyed doing for a couple of reasons, because older people tend to have better stories. Older people in my experience are more comfortable in their skin. They care less about what other people think of them. But there was also something really for those reasons that I found very appealing about these interview subjects, even if they're selling a movie, even if they're promoting a movie.

Even Marie Saint was in a movie, I can remember the name of it now when she came on the show with a movie with Colin Barrel. And she wasn't, it wasn't her priority to sell it. So I didn't feel like I was being sold. She just kind of was happy to chat. She's actually kind of a shy person. And she even actually at one point off camera said, what do you think of the movie? Which is kind of funny.

It's something you're not oftentimes asked about, asked by younger people who are much more in a political campaign frame of mind, which is, I have to believe this is the greatest thing because I have to make this work. Even Marie saying is, you know, she has an Oscar, you know, on the waterfront. It was fun for her to do a movie, but she was much more at ease just kind of talking about her life. And I also think it's just, I'm sort of an old soul. I had older parents growing up. And so I tend to gravitate towards these people anyway.

I love when you got Angie Dickinson because I got to go to her place as well. And that you actually, I wasn't sure I did, you know, I wanted to take photos of her place because it's like you're in the living room and you're like life size cut out of Sinatra. There's a photo of JF. you go in the bathroom and there was the band journey she had a poster of i believe it was journey and it was one of those things were just the cameras that i was so glad you were able to show people where uh yeah her intimate a living situation and i just got such a kick out out of her i loved spending time with her you know i loved angie too and it's for me it's a little bit of a feel thing like i have a kind of i sort of think of some people as underbeard

valued stocks. Like, here's somebody that's going to make the audience go, oh, my God, I love her. Right. Why aren't we? Yeah, we haven't heard from her in a while. Why aren't we talking about her? They're undervalued stocks. This is a different category, but I was very happy to profile Henry Winkler, who

I became friends with afterwards, because I got in between projects. It was pre-Berry. He really wasn't doing much. And I thought, okay, now I'm going to strike. This is the time when I can just have a conversation with him because he's Henry. Winkler, not because it's part of a larger press tour. And by the way, even if it were, Henry Winkler would still be great. But at that moment, he was what I would call an undervalued stock. And again, what I mean is that people, I'm sure when he came on the television, they go,

oh my God, of course I love Henry Winkler. This is great. So that's what I want people, how I want people to feel. And Angie was one of those people. It was my friend Todd Purdom, so terrific writer, wrote an amazing book in Rogers and Hammerstein, and longtime magazine writer. And he said, I just went to a party, and it was a really kind of fascinating assortment of people, and he said, but E.G. Dickinson, she is great. She tells it like it is. And indeed, like she said, you know, I said, are you a broad, a dame or a gal? And she said, I'm all three. In talking to Angie, I know that she's had a lot of pain in her life as well. She's at a very full life. She lost her daughter when her daughter was very young, too young. And what I asked about her daughter is I said, what are your best memories of her? And that's, It's really the only question I asked about her daughter, and I could feel things turn at that point, and I, and almost a sense of relief and opening up from her that you're not going to ask me about the really dark, painful side of losing a child, you know, being pre-deceive, having a child pre-decease you. And so I'd like to think that that was one of the reasons that Angie kind of opened up and enjoyed the interview. I love looking at your career because Johnny Carson in New York, he would do these Walter Middy-style. videos where he would go, they filmed this actually the Friday before the first ever

tonight show Monday aired on October 1st, 62. We went to Yankee Stadium and he was with Mantle and was with Roger Maris and Yogi Bear and just, you wanted to see what it was like for a regular person. He put on the pinstripes and he was getting pitched to by, or he was pitching toward to the Yankees and doing all these things. And then he flew with the Thunderbirds and he did all these. But you had done a bunch of these. Like, what are some of the ones that if you had to is like Walter Middy that you got into do that were your favorite? Well, I loved getting in a race car with Mario Andretti and going over 200 miles an hour. And actually, I wasn't feeling well that day.

And I could tell that I was having some sort of odd flu-like symptom because I actually have a pretty strong stomach. I'm very proud of the fact that when I did a piece for 60-minute sports on Marlin fishing and we went 100 miles out to sea. And, you know, some people in the crew, they were ribbing me. They were like, how are you going to handle this? They were like real guys, guys. They had been in war zones. I was really, really proud that all of them threw up, and I didn't. Like, I literally was the only person on our crew that did not throw up.

And I think it sort of served them right because they were kidding me. I mean, I love them all, but don't get me wrong. But when I drove with Mario Andretti, as I got in the car, a two-seater, I thought, something's wrong. And so we drove, he was driving, I can't remember how fast. It was over 200 miles an hour. And then I got out of the car and I did heave. I threw up everywhere. I went behind a dumpster

that's, you know, off the racetrack. But I was also proud of myself because I just, I don't want to gross everyone out here, but I just sort of quickly rinsed out and I just continued on with the shoot. But other things I've done, I loved Bobby Orr. Now, I didn't, it's not like I went and I played in a hockey game.

I did put on skates and we sort of, I'm going to show what a big hockey, ice hockey buff I am. We kind of skated around, whatever, with our sticks. And, but I will tell you this, that Bobby Orr, kind of anyone who's an ice hockey buff, hockey fan. He's kind of a god, right? And as soon as we met each other, he realized a few minutes in that I was not a lifelong ice hockey fan that I had really boned up and studied really hard. And I could sense a few minutes in, I think he might have even said, you're not a long time hockey

fan. And I said, no, I'm not, but I'm still excited to do this and I read all about you. And you think he was really, I think that for many athletes, at least, they don't like the people who nerd out about their records. They don't. It makes them uncomfortable in it, or it bores them. And he had a great time. And then later on, he did another interview and it got back to me. And I was very flattered. He said, that's the best interview I've ever done. I think he was happy to be with somebody who was enthusiastic to learn who he was, not to sort of show him how much they already knew. Carson and Letterman both like that the least thing that they want. And the inclination of a lot of comedians is Dave, you know, I mean, you got me into comedy or my comedy hero. And

it's very hard sometimes that they just want, just somebody talk about, I mean, talk about comedy, but just be a regular person. It's hard. So that you've got his respect that way. I wanted to mention Johnny did race with Mario Andretti in Indianapolis, and I think it was 67 or 68. I just just wanted to point that out for the listeners. Also, I wanted to mention Carson had, he took some classes and he had a photographic memory for faces and names. I've known you for a while. Do you have that ability? Because I've seen you in action. And I mean, I remember my wife, Christine, hadn't seen you for a bunch of years and you only met her maybe once or twice. And it's like, Christine. And it's like, oh, my goodness. Do you have that ability?

You know, I wish I did. I do have the ability to remember particular facts in details of people's lives. I'm not great. I'm actually, I'm happy, and I've loved interviewing you and Christine for a piece about guys with taller women, which I love doing that piece for CBS Sunday morning. You guys were great together and you are great together. Thank you. And there's a Valentine's Day piece. But I do remember, I'm good with details about people. And I've oftentimes wondered, somebody once said, how do you remember, how did you remember that about me? That in third grade, I was in a production of Oklahoma, and we didn't even meet until we were 35, or, you know, and I self-examined, and I think it's when I like a person, I just absorb everything. And then there are people in my life that I cannot, I can be told 30 different times a very basic piece of information.

It doesn't stick. And it's not that I actively dislike that person, but there's not a chemistry. There's not something. It's not sticky for some reason. And I just, and I don't make space for it. Yeah, they just, certain people don't hold your attention, like the time that you were on a date and you fell asleep. Oh my God, yeah. And that is, and I can't love that story.

I cannot reveal the topic because it will give away who the person was. But I went on a date and I still remember it was at, it was at a restaurant, a bistro in the West Village. And the person just kept talking. And then I fell asleep sitting up. I thought, I cannot believe I'm falling asleep while this poor guy is talking and talking about something he was an expert in. It was not a sleepy subject. It was actually kind of a really provocative topic. And I thought, this is a sign.

It makes a good story. Yes, I think that's the sign of all signs. What was it like? I mentioned Dave Letterman a little bit earlier. You went on his show in January of 2014. Did you grow up watching him or you a vet? And what was that experience like? I didn't, but I'll tell you.

And I like David Letterman. And I always thought he was, I guess, for at least a good long stretch, just flat out the best light night host, because I always thought, how fascinating is it that I'm watching an interview with some celebrity, and maybe even a celebrity that I love, and I'm more interested in what Dave is thinking while the interviewee is talking. And I thought, that says something. And he's not actively stealing focus. He's not. He's, in fact, it's because he's listening and engaged with the person that I can see the wheels turning and I want to know what he's thinking. I certainly want to know what he's going to say next, but that's more interesting than what the person's actually saying. And I thought that's something. That's certainly charisma, but that's a very special thing that I think set him apart. When I went on, I was quite nervous. And my friend Gideon Evans, who I'd met and become friends with The Daily Show and then was the showrunner. or my cooking show, my grandmother's ravioli, which was sort of the hook for the interview, came with me.

And I don't know if he even remember saying this to me. And it's a very poignant memory to me now. I think he could tell I was nervous. And he said, just remember, you're going to be able to say that you were a guest on David Letterman. And it was as if, like, the aperture of the whole situation just changed, as if I sort of pulled out from the situation. Instead of being in it and being fretting and being nervous,

hold back and I kind of look at this situation and went, that's just a cool thing. I'll be able to say, hey, David Letterman, he was this great late night show host and I got to be a guest. And that Gideon just completely refrained it in that moment in such a sweet, almost parental way to say, don't think of this as like states, like, oh my God, you've got to kill, you're going to, what a great thing to say you had this great life experience.

And I've used that at times when I get nervous, you know, with wait, wait, don't tell me. We started kind of a stand-up tour, and I thought, okay, I want to try that. I want to try doing real stand-up. And there have been a couple of venues where suddenly I can hear or I can almost hear my heart beating, like, boom, boom, which only happens to me in live situations. Because remember, the Daily Show was taped and, you know, taped before a live audience. audience. And, you know, and actually, of course, Letterman was as well. But the most nerve-wracking is when it's actually live, right? Oddly enough, a morning show like the Today Show when I'd make appearances there, and I'd have sort of jokes lined up, I could actually hear, I hear like people

who do a lot of cocaine, somebody I know, a really, really talented person. I've never done any cocaine, and I'm not advocating in any way. But I remember a brilliant friend of mine, is actually a Pulitzer Prize winner, saying that he remembered with a collaborator doing so much cocaine that he could, like, see his heart beating, like, you know. And so anyway, when I would go on the Today Show, I'm comparing, like, Matt Lauer and Katie Kirk to cocaine, I'm like saying, but anyway, you know, when I would go and have to do actual live, I would get really, really nervous. But I was that nervous before Gideon said that with David Letterman. How's that for a round about it? I love that. Stephen Wright told me it was one of his college friends.

gave him advisor. It might have been Barry Crimmons, who's a comedian in Boston, just to diffuse the situation when he made his car soon debut, because it was very strange. Peter LaSalle was responsible for that, but told him something about just flipping the switch. It's like a power charger, and it's just like, you've done this in the clubs, you just put the switch, and you just, you're in the club. Whatever it was, you know, it doesn't work for everybody, but it worked for him, and I'm glad that you were able to get that letterman in right before he retired because he left in 2015. So you just got it.

And I'll tell you another thing also. I think that Sean Hayes, who I'm in France with had given me this suggestion as well. So it's a little different right thing going on to do stand-up. I pretty sure it was, Sean Hayes told me this, but I think it was before the fact he said,

you know, when you make your first appearance on Letterman, he really does not want you coming in with a bit. He does not want that. I mean, obviously, if you're doing a stand-up, that's different. But if you're coming in as a guest, the first time. Don't do that. Like, he wants to get to know who you are. And that also was very

liberating as well. Because then I, because I, coupled with what Gideon said to me, I sort of thought, there's really nothing I can do to control this situation anyway. Like, this is a master. Let me just see what happens. And I have to say, even walking out, I can't believe I did this. I'm not a klutz, but I walked around the wrong side of the couch. So it was a very, it was a kind of a bumbling moment. So when he said, you know, Maraca and I came out. And I came out. and I walked upstage at the couch instead of down to shake his hand and so there was like a

kind of moment but you know it didn't really matter and then I sat down and and then I just went all right he's gonna ask me questions and I actually think it was a pretty good segment I love that you got if I Sean Hayes became Don Rickles

almost to Dave Letterman roasting him after a bunches of appearances it was so funny but I really that's interesting yeah you build that I guess that rapport you know you've been on Fallon five times Conan twice. You've gone on a lot of these shows like Colbert and Gordon, and a lot of comedians really want to go in tight, prepared. But for wait, wait, don't tell me, you told me that you

really, you cannot write ahead of time and prepare stuff, because the audience will, they can tell. And that has to go from one situation. I'm guessing, like, if you go on a Colbert, you're prepared versus going on, wait, wait, and just having to wing it. How do you do that? What is the process and what is that fear like? Does it ever go away? You know, wait, wait, wait, don't tell me, I don't find particularly stressful. I've been on it for so long over 20 years and I'm sure there have been waves and maybe it also depends on who, you know, maybe something else going on in my life. It's hard to say, but the last few years when I've been doing it, I don't feel nervous. I think part of it is kind of relaxing into myself because, you know,

I guess it's a corollary to the whole thing. I think it was Bill Maher, who said when you become established as a comic, they're already laughing during the setup. You have a running head start with each joke, right? And so it's a lot easier than proving yourself. And somebody said that to me about wait, wait. I think at one point I was nervous, and they said, you've been doing this for so long.

The audience is just happy to hear you. And the other people have been on for a long time. So this is not high stakes. And so I think that's an important part. Also, the contract with the listener, I think, and it's a real one, is that these are a group of friends kibbitzing together and you, the listener, are listening in. And an interesting thing happened during the pandemic when we couldn't be in the same room in front of a live audience. Peter Sagle, the host, said to us, you guys are going to have to listen to each other even more and build off of each other more, right? Because you've got no live audience anymore.

So you don't have any audience really to play to. So you have to listen to each other, and I kind of loved it. And I became very happy to sort of be a setup for somebody, even if I didn't have a joke. And somebody said, you know, a plumber in Minnesota, you know, found a gold bar in a, and, you know, whatever, in a toilet or some silly story. And then I would feel free to just kind of say, God, that reminds me of the time X happened, which might not even be funny, but then Paula Poundstone might build off of it and kill. And then the producers that say afterwards, thank you. that was great because it really helped get things going. It's a pretty wonderful format to be part of. Yeah, now, it's amazing. The run that you've had, tell us about your new book. I know you've been running around signing books and doing lots of appearances. And there are a lot of Carson people that you mentioned in the book.

It's funny how that happens. It's a generational thing, I guess, and happened in my last book, Mobituaries. So this book is called Rachtagenarians, late in life, debuts, and triumphs. And, you know, because for so long I've interviewed and I've gravitated towards older people, I wanted to do a book with my collaborator, Jonathan Greenberg, that really told stories, real stories of people currently and from the past who killed it late in life, who accomplished a lot late in life. They're not necessarily breakthroughs. Some of them are. Some of them are comebacks. And as the subtitle would suggest, some of them are kind of capstones. Architects, for instance, kind of famously peak late in life. Like just keep going and keep going. I mean, so many world-class architects have lived and worked into their 90s. You know, I think without getting on a soapbox here, ageism is real, and it's really stupid because there's all this great talent. There's all this great human capital and just sort of to dismiss it out of hand. Obviously, this is a very contentious topic right now with the presidential race, but we're hearing very much and, you know, and yes, seeing sort of the downsides of aging, okay, we understand.

we get it and you know but there is another side to this and the population's aging whether we like it or not so this book is a counterpoint to to all the negativity you know people like mel brooks who until i guess maybe 2000 he had the producers which on broadway i think it well he set a record for tony's and he's still doing his thing i mean it's it's incredible i think he just turned 98 i know he's featured rita moreno talk about estalgetti her big break at 62 for the Golden Girls, Frank Lloyd Wright. The Guggenheim, was he in the late 70s by then? Or was he in his 80s?

When he was in his late 70s, but the design was submitted when he was 84. And like a lot of people, in his case, he was repurposing a design basically for a car park that was going to be in the mountains of Maryland, that spiral. And, you know, the great artists, the abstract expressions of the day were outraged by the architecture, which they thought did not suit the art that would be hung there. A lot of people thought he was past his prime, but, you know, the falling water is to western Pennsylvania as, you know, the Guggenheim is to Manhattan. It is now such a part of the environment that it's hard to imagine it without it. The three comics, all of whom, Carl Reiner, Mel Brooks and Norman Lear, who were all featured as, you know, the fathers of founding fathers of comedy in the book, all of them obviously had spectacular careers by their middle age, But they had so much in common and they thrived so well into old age that we had to include them.

I mean, all of them were the children of Jewish immigrants. All of them were, you know, fans of musical comedy, the Marx Brothers, the Ritz brothers, the Ritz brothers, vaudeville growing up. All of them served during World War II, which was really, really formative for them and their commitment to, you know, democracy and to tolerance, which I think informed their comedy in a really big way. And they weren't, of course, just great friends who vacationed together when they lived on the East Coast. They'd go out to Fire Island, but then on the West Coast, when they migrated there. They would spend weekends together in their pajamas, just laughing with other icons of comedy. It's really hard to overstate that so much of what we consume, what's shaped the way we view our world, was forged by them. It's undeniable.

It is true. Carl Reiner was one of the – I was lucky to go to his home a few times to have him on the podcast. And he was writing books until his 90s. He was always so busy with projects. I'm like, you're making people my age look bad with just how productive and how focused. I mean, I think what's interesting is that when you talk about old age like this, it's difficult not to lapse into cliche. But these guys have such authority. So when they say things like as they all have, or in the case did, and because two of them have passed on, obviously, when they say things like laughter makes you young, you know, if you hear a random person in your life say that, you might smile and go, what a lovely sentiment.

But they really meant that, and they said that with authority. But I think what they also meant is that engagement keeps you young. Because they remained engaged. Actually, the least of them probably was Mel Brooks, who they all, I think, and Brooks himself would agree, was sort of crankier than the other two. But Reiner and Lear especially remained extremely engaged with the world and with their networks and with mentees. And, you know, Rita Moreno is the same way.

And she's amazing. It's an active choice to do that. And I do think that's what kept them. It's not a coincidence that they all have lived so long. So Jane never had you actually as a guest to sit down, but he had you as a correspondent, correct? That's absolutely right. My very first appearance was about presidential pets, and I had a book out at the time about presidential pets. So this was in the fall of 2004.

He had me when I came on sort of hold the book, and so it was a nice little plug for it. But I never was actually a guest. Frankly, one of the things that I thought was kind of remarkable and a sign of the times and no longer is the amount of money that they had to spend. Oh, network television back then? Yes. I think that Jay was grandfathered in because after they started tightening belts for other people, they still had crazy budgets. I would go, I'm whispering to you as if no one else will hear, but I would go on these shoots and I would put down a credit card for incidentals. Okay.

And we'd at the end. I would check out and they go, oh, no, they covered all. all those for you. I mean, they just said, and that was, I have to thank Scott Atwell, who was the touring, oversee the tour, and he can't get in trouble for this at this point. The statute of limitations had passed, but I think he would just say, oh, no, no, no, we'll cover it all. And I think they, I would like to think they were doing that for all the correspondence, but also we would go, like, I think I pitched the thing. I said, oh, I want to do like the Mesoamerican Roots of Spring Break and Cancun, a piece about that. And they were like, okay, that's quirky and

on. So instead of it being a two-day shoot, we went down for a week. We saved a really nice hotel, and there were like nine or ten people in the crew, which crazy, the amounts of money that were being spent. And I was living, as I do now, in New York. And so when the piece would air, so right, these are obviously pre-taped, these, these features, when the piece would air, they would fly me out just to literally, so that Jay could go, and when I'd come out and he'd go, Mo, tell us what you have. Well, Jay, I wanted to explore the historic roots of Cancun, take a look. And then he rolled a piece at the end. He'd go, Maraq, everyone, and I'd wave. And I thought, great. It was a chance for me to see friends in L.A. But I mean, this is a little,

maybe too much of how the sausage is getting made. But I just couldn't get over how much money they were spending on production. Yeah, it doesn't happen anymore, at least on one of the late night shows. I know they wanted some of my friends on that have done TV. And they said, are you going to be here in L.A. anytime soon? And they didn't want to pay for their flight, which back then it was like, they wanted somebody on. It was, one day I was, it's kind of crazy.

I walked out of my shrink's office, and there was like, on the street was Connor and O'Brien and his wife. And they weren't going to the shrink. I was coming, whatever. So it was in the part of Manhattan where my turn to us.

And so, and I knew them a little bit and Conan's so friendly. And so we were talking about this very topic, and he was getting ready, getting ready to move from the 1230 to 1130, right? Okay, at that point. You can tell me what year this is.

Oh, I think that was. Was it, what, 2009 or 2010 when Conan got the Tonight Show or something like that? Very friendly chat about, and I was saying this very thing. I said, you know, he knew that I'd been doing pieces on, what with, on Jay Show. And he said, it's crazy, like the budgets. And then kind of goes, yeah, it's not like that ordinarily. He said, and he was talking about late night, right? Yeah, the late show.

Sorry, his 1230 show. He goes, yeah, late night. He joked. He said, oh, yeah. He said, when we started this show, we'd say, yeah, we're thinking about a sketch for the last act of the show will build a giant robot and it will explode. And he basically was saying that like when the show began,

the 1230 show, that they just had three reign to spend whatever they wanted on production. And that like by the time his tenure on that show was wrapping up because of how the economy had changed and late 90 economy had changed. It was like those states were a long gone. It was. All the writers would have to stay and do a lot of times 12 hours. days and they would get their individual dinners ordered from like the best restaurants. And then

it's like no way. And then they did like a pool of they would just order food. I guess it was cheaper that way just for the writers to all share. I don't know how they saved money that way, but apparently they did. But they were cutting. They were definitely cutting corners. Marilyn May, you know, she went on Carson dozens of times. She will, um, you did a profile on her. Um, I got to sit down with her. You told me and I don't think I mentioned this on the podcast because I talked to her, I think before you told me that. Apparently, Fallon asked her to come on and she refused to come on because they wouldn't let her bring her own accompanist or her own musicians. That's what you told me.

Is that true? I know. I just want to be really clear, though, because it's not just because I love Jimmy. And he's great. The Tonight Show wanted to have her on, but as a sign of, I think of Marilyn's kind of her uncompromising standards, and I really admire her for that, she didn't want to go on any late night show. show unless she could come with her full band. I mean, that's just the way she is. I mean, she's now 96, and she's still touring, and she's a master.

But I thought that that was really cool, that she wouldn't go on any show unless she could have her band. And I think it just wasn't possible. And I don't know that any late night show could have accommodated her. She really said no to the Tonight Show. Yeah, that's my understanding. And there was nothing acrimonious about it at all. I think she just thought, this is what I do.

And this is how I do it. And if I'm going to go on TV, I need to do it under my terms. And I think there was mutual respect on that score. I want to mention the daily show. I mean, you were there from, let's see, 1998 to 2003. You were there at the tail end of Craig Kilbourne. I have talked to people that were there around that time when John Stewart came. And it's amazing to think that this guy did not have at all final say of what was going to get in the script, what he was going to say.

And you witnessed this transition. One of the writers who, he just passed away, Tom Johnson, basically told me, he said, you know, we all were upset when John came in. And he wanted to change the daily show and we were all upset. And then, but if that's four to two years later, we're winning Emmys. He was right. But there was lots of resistance. What did you witness? What I remember most distinctly was a meeting that was in Mantle of Smithburg's office where the entire staff came together.

It was probably a few months into John's 10. And John was trying to explain to everyone that the show needed to have a point of view. I don't know if he used those words, but that's essentially what he was saying. And I do remember people looking really worried and thinking, uh-oh, does this mean the show is going to become preachy? And I think that was what the concern was, that there was a safety and kind of the scattershot nature of the Daily Show under Craig Kilbourne, because everyone was a target. You know, somebody, it was a writer for the New York Times.

I once described the show as the kid at the back of the classroom shooting spitballs. And I think that was the appeal of the show. The show was kind of like an asshole who would, you know, kind of attack anyone kind of randomly. And then John said he wanted it to have more of a point of view. I think that worried people because they thought, what does that mean? Is that going to become preachy? And I do remember people exchanging looks about that. And obviously, he was proved right.

I mean, could have continued in the Kilbourne vein. And look, it could have continued being very successful, but it would never have broken out in the same way. I do think that, you know, I don't want to get, you know, hyperbolic here. But when I think about what John did to The Daily Show, I think it at less as, oh, he was a great comic and like, you know, and I don't even really know John's stand-up very much. I think I went to see it once.

We all went kind of, you know, I don't know much about John's stand-up, but I always thought that his talent was, and this is a very grand word, was, was a vision. He had a vision for the show. And that's what was so powerful. It's amazing with Kilbourne, because first of all, he was only on for two years or so before he got his big CBS thing. It was really a quick rise. Or maybe he was on for actually 96 it started. So yeah, I guess he was there for maybe three years. And originally they didn't have an audience. And he became this big star. But I just remember Mike Myers coming on to plug one of the Austin Powers movies. And he would do the five

questions. And one of his questions to Mike Myers, and I think it seemed like it upset him was Canada, what went wrong? That's what he said to Mike Myers. And everyone in the audience is laughing and Myers is like, he has a grin on his face. But that was Kilbourne's, that was his thing. You know, it's funny by the way. No one else does that, by the way. Yeah, yeah. It's funny about the lack of a studio audience because the daily show went, excuse me, wait, wait, don't tell me, went through that too, not having a studio audience. And then they said, okay, we've got to change things up. And we all went, oh, we're all going to have to get on planes and go to Chicago every week, but it was worth it. And it was worth it, of course, with the Daily Show. Yeah, I only did two pieces under

Craig's tenure. And so, oh, that was it. Okay. I always think if you was fearless, but when you did the whole, and it's historic now to look back it in Decision 2000, it was you and some of the correspondence. And you asked, was it John McCain terrific pursuit questions? And this was the first time that ever the correspondence were around presidential candidates. They You went to New Hampshire? Yeah. So this is, I think, probably my fondest memory of the Daily Show is Vance DeGeneres, whom I'm still good friends with, who I love, and was my office mate. And everyone loves Corel for a good reason, not just bands worldwide.

He's just a really decent human being. But the three of us went up, and that's when the Indecision 2000 jackets in a walking closet right now, it should be somewhere in here. And we all had breakfast actually recently because Steve did Uncle Bonnia on Broadway and we went to see him. And before his matinee, we had breakfast and we all realized we all still have our jackets, our indecision 2000 jackets. But that was the debut of the jackets. And it was a Republican debate. It wasn't a primary, but I later went back for the primary and that was with Nancy Walls. And it was a slightly different setup.

But it was a debate. And so they put us on the road and the three of us were there. And what was so special and kind of crackling about that moment and that time is that people didn't outside of sort of college kids didn't really know what the show was yet. We had these jackets on underneath. We had neckties and we were nicely dressed. So we looked like actual news correspondence just ever so slightly awe. And so people really didn't know. I think they knew who were these three guys with matching overcoats? So there's something a little awe. It wasn't like the show would be a few years down the road from that where everyone would go, okay, the daily show, what are they going to ask?

I did indeed. Raise my hand. I asked the first question of the three of us. And it was a question from the International Edition of Trivial Pursuit. I think it's an insight into why John McCain was such a successful politician, is that he didn't Flynn, she didn't go, oh, there's obviously a joke. here he just completely with a straight face he did indeed had to be what somebody whispered in his ear but he just completely got what was going on in the moment and just went biork and he was there

about an icelandic you know pop singer and i always thought that was part of kind of his own his magic and then the next day correll did the legendary bus ride with mccain where he asked a question that really did throw mcane off and then became what then you would call a viral moment was a very big deal and the New York Times wrote it up. But that trip was really, really special. And not just because it put the show on a larger map, but just because, honestly, the three of us just had so much fun. And we were just recounting it the other day.

There was an over-the-shoulder shot where we were at a press conference, taking notes, but we were, in fact, just doodling and doing like little Valentine's Day cards and things like that. Just had a great time. What was that like being back at the final taping? I know you were there and most of the correspondence and Springsteen was playing at the very end.

You know, it was... The very end was really special with Springsteen and dancing around. That was very special. It was nice. It wasn't what I thought would be memorable in Stewart, like maybe like being close to...

I would get very emotional, I think, if I was there for that long. And there was no... No, he was not sentimental. It seemed like when he was doing his goodbye, which really super... me.

One of the things I noticed about it, which was interesting, and I think they explained what you're saying is, I was really struck that as we did the rehearsal, and I hadn't been on the show and you do the math, like 10, 12 years, what really struck me was that right after the rehearsal, we were called in like in pairs and given notes. And I wasn't offended by this at all. I just thought, oh, my God, he's treating this like a regular episode. And I found that fascinating. But it also made sense because John was so in it all the time.

But there was no sense of like, oh, just toss one off or this will be fun or whatever. Like, he was like making edits to the copy. I think the show was overstuffed. And I also think they should have put correspondents who hadn't been on the show in a long time in context. Because I think it was, there was just so many people. that had little tiny bits. And I also think, I'm sorry,

this is very self-servey, but Mark, no, I love hearing this. You asked me, but I do think that they should have, I don't know how they selected the studio audience, but it would have been nice

if it was composed of people, maybe partly who had watched the show 20 years before, whatever it was, 15 years before, but you got the sense that it was an audience that was probably current watchers, which is fine,

but I don't know. I think, to use that horrible word, it should have been curated differently. And I think it maybe should have been an hour long because everything went by in a flash. Yeah, I can't believe that with commercials or whatever, that's not a lot of time for a goodbye show. You know, I will tell you one thing. If you're an obsessive and you have it taped at the very end right before it cuts out, this is very sweet. John Crapped me and hugged me.

And it was, he like at the very end, just to cut out. Because as it happened, I thought, oh, it's so sweet that he hugged me. And then somebody, and I guess I was still out when. it aired that night, so I didn't watch it as it aired. And then somebody said, I was watching. It was very sweet. He grabs you. And so I bring that up not just because it's nice for me, but it's, but John was emotional, but maybe it was just only at the very end on the dance floor with different people that he could kind of let go. It could have been. I mean, Dave Letterman got over that. He was very emotional leading up to it, but it got it out of his system. So by the time he did the final

show he was okay. But I do want to point out, Dave, during that montage with the Food Fighters, Dave was not present to watch it on stage. And just to feel that the last segment ever on the show, he was backstage where the coffee maker was and just, for whatever reason, he just couldn't experience that with an audience. And maybe that was just too emotional for me. I'm not sure. But yeah, I found that fascinating that he wouldn't be there for like the last part of his show in front of the audience. People deal with it different ways. Carson, you know, Jim McCulley, who is Carson's stand-up guy said Johnny's not going to have any sentimentality. It's inappropriate, and Johnny has no.

And then at the Bet Midler, he cries, Johnny cries. And then at the final show when he's saying goodbye to America, tears in his eyes. So you never know with some of those people what it means to them. Well, I mean, this isn't a big surprise. But I remember I asked Bet Midler when I profiled her. I asked about that. And she, look, she was, and she's, I think a performer that, how do I put this? I think that's so in it that she doesn't sort of, she probably went on there not going,

okay, this will be a really historic performance because it's one of the last. I think she went and she did her thing, which is why he liked her because she was that overused word, authentic. But I think I did say to her, because I didn't know all that much about Carson at the time. And I said, oh, did you keep in touch with him or something? She just went, no, he wasn't that type of person. And she said, she even bristled a little bit about it. And she said, no, that's not, that's not who he was.

And of course, we all, I mean, anyone who knows. much about him. It all knows that. But I didn't, and I asked her that. Yeah, there were some guest. It was a very small club of people that he, I mean, he felt like this love for, for, for certain people and stuff. But with, yeah, he was very, very shy, man, very, yeah, small group of people. Your book, how many books have you written? You're so prolific. I'm going to guess. Is this like you're 13? Oh, it's my third. It just seems. It seems that you, I won't shut up about them. Maybe it's just because I follow you on social media and I see people post your books

and talk about books and I've read so much. That's hilarious how off I was. You know, it's fine. And let me just tell you the very first one I wrote, which was all the president's pets, the story of one reporter who refused to roll over, which was political satire and a thriller with sort of Charlotte's Web meets the divinchey code and featured me and the late UPI reporter Helen Thomas. I won't tell you, well, I won't because, you know, it's,

25 people bought it. But I think most of them liked it. And she was a reincarnated turkey buzzard. But it was about all the different pets who have lived in the White House and how they kind of conspired to make decisions. And I encourage people to, if they can even find a copy, it's out of friend, just to buy one for 35 cents on eBay or whatever on Amazon. Because I'm very proud of it. I had a great time writing it. It was a real rush. The last two books, some obituaries in this. I've done with my good friend Jonathan Greenberg, and I love doing them. And one of the things I love doing is I love creating a mix for people, and I love surprising people. I like people to read about, you know, I think of everything in my pieces.

I think about this when I actually do an individual field piece or when I can put a book together, co-write a book, is about mix between protein and carbs. You want something that's going to nourish you, that's going to fortify you, but then you want some sugar. You want to rush. So that's why you have Mary Church Terrell, a civil rights leader who at 86 led sit-ins at segregated Washington, D.C. lunch counters. She's a major roctogenarian. That's a story that fortifies you. But then I have Mr. Pickles, the Houston Zoo Tortoise, who became a first-time father at the age of 90, because that's fun. And so, and I love playing with that. That's not so pretentious playing with it. But I do love that. I think it's very important that people turn the page and be surprised, be delighted, a word my father liked. You have so many people that Carson had on your, Diana Nyad on the show? You're reminding me, of course, Diana Nyad was on Carson because Diana Nyad in the 70s during a very rock and roll period when SNL was new. Diana Nyad and the East and Hudson Rivers were absolutely toxic and disgusting. She swam around the island of Manhattan.

And it made her a celebrity athlete. She went on Carson, which was a real mark of what a big deal she was. But then she tried at the age of 28 to swim from. from Cuba to Key West. She did not succeed. She put the dream away for 30 years. She resumed it at 58. It was even more remarkable is she kept succeeding and failing until she did it at age 64.

So we had to include her. We also had to include her because Annette Benning's performance as Diana Nyad, for which she was nominated for an Oscar, is one of those performances that's just so crazy, amazing. You go, this woman doesn't deserve an Oscar. She deserves like a congressional medal of honor for this performance. I'm so glad that you put her in your book. I said show, but in the book. And I mean, you profiled everyone. Talk about late night from Joan Rivers. You interviewed John Stewart, Fallon, Colbert, probably more than that. But just the fact that you've been able to do this was so special to have you on. Everybody go out and buy rockogenarians. It's available wherever you buy books. You did the audio book, I'm guessing. I generated the audiobook. Everybody. Mo, thank you for doing this. It's so good seeing you. It's been a while. It's great to see you, Mark, and thank you very much. And it is remarkable how Carson himself keeps popping up. And it's maybe just a sign of what I gravitate towards,

but it's interesting how many different figures from different walks of life that are profiled in this book and in my last book, Mobituaries, have Carson connections. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcast, please rate it and leave a review. be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news, and you can find my podcast at latiner.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next Tuesday. I don't know.

Thank you.