Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Rob Kutner

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

Rob Kutner joins Mark to discuss writing for Conan O'Brien's Tonight Show & TBS, Jon Stewart on The Daily Show, and HBO's Dennis Miller Live. Emmy Award winner Kutner also talks about working on the kids animated project, God's Gang.   Follow on X (Twitter): @ApocalypseHow Website: www.RobKutner.com Check Out- God's Gang

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by latenighter.com. Today's guest is Emmy Award-winning comedy writer Rob Cutner. We discuss him writing for Conan O'Brien's Tonight Show as well as TBS, the Daily Show with John Stewart, and HBO's Dennis Miller Live. Now it's time to go inside late night. Rob Cotner, thanks for talking with me. Always a pleasure, Mark. You know, you were so nice. When I worked at the day job at the Colbert Report, you would pass by a lot when I was doing my job before the tape.

And I was always envious. You got to leave early and you didn't have to stay late sometimes. But you were always so nice. There were other people, I'm not going to mention one person. I don't want to say anything bad about their appearance, but it was somebody unappealing who would walk by and just never make eye contact or say hi. from the Daily Show and I was like, I'm here. I work on the show where John produces both of our shows, but you were always very nice. Oh, well, listen, I think you were so nice because I asked you like a thousand times to like let me have guests come or like the special things and a thousand

times over. Like, you're the, you're, it looks like an old-fashioned nice off, Malkoff. Back and forth. That was, I can't believe how long ago that was. So long ago, I know. It's interesting because I don't know many people. I'm trying to think of anybody I know that went from Daily Show to Conan show, are you the only one that made that move? Well, it's actually funny. Matt O'Brien was a researcher on the daily show and what they used to call a faxer to a weekend update, you know, back when there were faxes and when it was okay to do this thing, it's not really okay with the WJ fax and jokes, freelance jokes. But anyway, so Matt O'Brien was doing that and then he went off and worked on a bunch

of other shows. And then after I've been at Conan, he came into Conan as the headwriter. So I stayed at the same level, and he went from researcher all the way to, like, boss. So that guy made the jump in a big way. So why did you leave? Because, you know, the Daily Show was a cush job. I mean, when you were there, there was at least one person. I think that was there from the beginning. And it was one of those things, was it that you wanted to go to L.A.?

Is that in the Tonight Show just being so exciting? Yeah, it was a lot of things. It was, yeah, one thing is I'd been in L.A. before. I think we're going to, we'll probably talk about at some point, but I started out writing for Dennis Miller and his show was based in L.A. And I'd been there for like five years. So I was kind of moving out to New York on a lark to try this little, this scrappy little show called The Daily Show. So this was early John Stewart. It wasn't a huge show. It was kind of getting on the map, but I just knew it was always written really well. So I came out to try it for a while and

then it kind of really blew up. I think as soon as I arrived is when it blew up. No, so I ended up staying for seven years. But my wife and I had a lot of friends in LA. My wife worked in L.A. mostly. Her job was in TV. And we just had a baby, you know, having a baby in New York is no picnic. And then also like the other factor was that seven years is a long time to be coming and watching Fox News all day as your job. Let's just put it that way. The other thing is you win an Emmy every year no matter what, even if the show didn't air, you guys would still win. I know. I'm not complaining about that at all. But, you know, the way humans are so stupid that, like, even, like, the most amazing thing starts to feel like routine business when it happens

enough. So that my point being that, like, that was amazing, but I also wanted to just try different things. I wanted to try new creative challenges. And Conan was, like, the right balance of smart and comedy, but a little bit less political, a little bit less intense, which is what I was ready for. How many months were you there with the writing staff pitching? And you were Monologue. So were you pitching other ideas and how long before the launch were you there? For the new one, actually I was this there. I came in after it started. So they launched in, I want to say like July of 2009. You have the chronology, probably right, but. It is 09, yes. Yes, July of 2009. And they hired me in June. And so I had a month to move my family, including a aforementioned

baby across the country. And it got to the, but then they were also starting to like do like, a couple of shows, I think, before I had moved. They arranged with either I could, I could submit from abroad, well, from New York anyway before I got there. I could send my jokes in every day. So my wife describes this one point the movers carrying the mattress out while I was sitting on it, sitting jokes into Conan. So you were there. At what point did you know that there might be some trouble? I know that you said, quote, that one week was a veritable six flags scream of emotions. We really did. I didn't know exactly when the last show was going to end.

So we felt like Wiley E. Coyote running off the cliff before he looks down. First of all, you're butering my poetry here. No, so you know what? It's funny that you asked that because the simple answer is we had no effing clue. At least those of us at the starfighter level, which is basically, you know, in late night as opposed to sitcoms, you don't have this, you don't have a hierarchy. You have the head writer and the EPs and then everyone else is a staff writer. So we didn't know it all.

And I think it's in part they kind of kept that from us. Like when I read Bill Carter's The Late Show, a lot of it was news to me what was happening inside my own house. Oh, the late shift or what was the second one? No, no, no. Sorry, the second one that he did. It was about the Conan Leno thing. I forgot it was called.

But yeah, the late shift was the other Leno-Letterman thing. But yeah, so the one that was about this, like I read a lot of stuff that was news to me because we had not been privy to it. And I think this was a part of the culture Conan wanted to keep, which is like not have people worried about stuff, not worried about. about that stuff, to deal with that at the high level. What the clue was, it was like December of, I guess this is 09 still, the writer's assistant runs in the morning and says, you guys got to check out TMZ. And that's never really a good thing. It's not usually a good reason.

Conan Pets puppy all over TMZ. That's not really going to be what the story is. And that was, what that was the interview that Jay Leno gave to broadcast and cable magazine, I think it was, where they said, would you consider coming back, which was basically him floating a trial balloon for NBC to pick him up because Conan's ratings were flounder. I mean, we knew the ratings weren't great, but, you know, with Leno, they let Leno, like, stay in for like 18 months, and then he got a huge boost and he really took off after that Hugh Grant interview, I think. So, like, he got a long time to sort of grow his audience. So we didn't really think that was a problem. But then, like, that thing made us all nervous, I think, and that was December.

So it's like the end of the year. And then I think that was around the time that I described. when we started having, we had these sort of meetings where Conan was like, everything's fine, don't worry about what you read in the press, it's all going to be good. And I don't think that was him lying. I think he just didn't know. And what he went by that was like, I'm going to take care of you all. I'm going to make sure this is okay for you, whatever happens. That was the way it was it.

So you never want a meeting like that either, really. But we didn't really have the inclinations. And then I don't remember the exact chronology, but like the news that we suddenly like had two weeks left of the show. That was when that period I described happened. And that was with that amazing highs and amazing lows because it's suddenly what happened to this job that I just moved out with my baby and my family across the country for seven months ago, you know, what happened to that? And I left The Daily Show for it. I was like, you know, don't leave the Daily Show unless you're going to leave for like literally the oldest franchise in TV history, like the oldest show. Who's going to mess with the Tonight Show?

It seemed like the most solid thing to change to of all. And then, you know, life happens. it was your idea to put the set on Craig's list to put Conan and the set yes that was my that was see that was that period but it was just like he was just reckless

and he was just like anything goes I don't care what we do the show and I think this real the side of Conan that we see now which I think is kind of healthy like this sort of like him showing his claws

and his kind of a bit of cynicism and edge really like just burst down in a full display I think where he'd sort of kept that under wraps he had more of a gentle whimsical man boy kind of cartini feel to it

where everyone's kind of I'm happy. And then I think, like, he really kind of, like, had the slap of the face. And I think the edge came out, and it was really great. I think it's been great for his comedy ever since. I know at TBS, you would be at Warner's, you would be with Conan, the other monologue writers would be maybe four of you and some other key people and Conan's dressing room? Would you be there at the Tonight Show as well in the same capacity with Conan before the show? Yeah, yes. I think we basically kept the same, he likes to work in the same way. I think the only difference was that we had five shows a week there.

as opposed to the four. And that might not sound like a lot to people, but there's something about on Friday after doing four shows, like where you're just really worn down. And I think we were just really tired out. You know, then you're later late on a Friday and you're not doing your best direct. Again, not to complain. I've been at a very blessed and exciting career. But we much preferred TBS when it was four days as the daily show had been because that's really you do your best, I think about four days of just one show after another is great. And going beyond that, it's sort of pushing it or at least it was hard for me. What was that like the final tonight show, the one with Will Ferrell and Neil Young and a bunch of cameos?

I mean, that was just, I mean, everything was just like I was saying, like, just an emotional role went, you know, that whole week. Just the low of like, my job is ending. What are we going to do? I just moved out here. And then also like the, it was just this incredible high because during that week there was a big fan organized protest. I mean, this whole I'm with Coco movements. Kids today. The kids today, they don't remember this. But there was a huge like, it was so stupid because it was like national news all the time. We obviously didn't have anything else to worry about, you know, in 2009, to nothing else was happening in the world. The writer's strike had come and gone. The Great Recession was kind of receding, if you will. And so everywhere, people were asking about this, like people who weren't even like TV fans.

And I was like, you know, there are other things in the world that are actually a lot more dramatic than this. But all these fans, like, had these protests. And there was a rain, there's a rainy day at Universal, NBC Universal, where we were taping the show. And they came out in mass. And you know, you've been in LA enough to know that people don't do anything. when it's raining. They act like the wicked witch of the West, like it's going to kill them.

And they stay inside and they never leave the house. People came out and marched and people walking in L.A. Little one in rain, people actually walking on foot. They marched on front of you. And that was so amazing because so often in TV or really almost any creative endeavor, you don't necessarily know how much your audience loves you. Maybe if you're a stand-up, you would, or a theater actor. But you don't really get that actual sense of how much your audience loves you. And so seeing people en masse in the rain coming out demanding that NBC let Conan stay on was just like such a lift under our sales for all of us that that plus the sort of devil make care feeling that Conan was bringing was like just super exciting and fun on top of and it kind of like coasted us right through I think the depressing

cold reality of it I think so so the Will Ferrell Neil Young like that was just this culmination of this two weeks of an intense emotional thing I think we were probably all on tears I I think I was, certainly. You did an interview when you were talking about being in Conan's dressing room before the show and, you know, a bunch of the monologue people. And Conan would just make songs up about Brian Kylie on the spot. But you'd say they would rhyme and they would be absolutely perfect and he would just have his guitar.

And this would happen. He has that ability. Yeah. It's amazing, like the way the levels that his mind works at. I mean, you know that documentary, Conan O'Brien can't stop. I imagine you probably saw it. But he really can't. He can't turn it off.

It's almost like an extremely lucrative disease he has, like a compulsion where he just, his brain is always moving. And I think this is how we kind of got the job is because he was at the Simpsons, he was just, everyone's pitching stuff, but he's getting up there, acting out things, going to the next three levels of something. He's doing that. So it's like, this is in the middle of Conan putting his show together for the day. So he's making high level decisions that have to be spot on.

And then he's twirling on with the guitar, making up rhyming songs just to mock one of his staff. Like, it's incomprehensible, like, how many levels is mine works at? When you found out about Conan, it was a little bit different than most people when Conan got the gig in 93, because you had a friend who was friends with Conan's brother, Justin, O'Brien. So you hear, how do you hear this? Because I just hear there's this obscure Saturday Night Live writer, and I'm like, I can't believe he got the gig, who is this guy. But how did you find out about it? I think he was, if I have the chronology, I think he was Asnell and then Simpsons, but. Yes, SNL and then Simpsons. That's right, yeah.

Yes, he was on The Simpsons. I remember, like, yeah, so my friend, who's also named Justin, his friend was named Justin, and he just told me that before his friend's brother was a writer in The Simpsons. And that was kind of interesting for me because I was, like, leaning in that way myself. But I didn't really think of it. And then he just, that's how I found out was he called me. He says, you're not going to believe what happened to Justin's brother. I'm like, wait, what? What do you mean it happened? Does something bad happen? Was there an accident? And then he tells me about it. And I had no idea about this. And it was just like shocking for me too. because it was also like I think you're saying it was about like sort of like a civilian if you will you know usually as we've seen especially with the Daily Show triads usually like it's almost always someone sort of famous who takes over these things and so like someone that no one's ever heard of taking over was like equally shocking for me I wanted to ask about some of the pieces you wrote you mainly monologue for Conan but I know you wrote some sketches you are the Mrs. Butterworth's the movie yeah piece that was you can you describe that yeah that was very satisfying. So this was a period when I think this was like the 20, I want to say it's like 2012,

2013, something like that. There was this brief trends where they were doing like dark versions of kids movies. Like there was this Kristen Stewart, Snow White. It was like Snow White and the Huntersris, like a super dark version of that. There's something else like that too. I can remember at the time. It was like they were taking kids properties and making him super dark. And so I think it actually got pitched around a little bit. Like I was trying to find like what's the kids property that would be like the best to just go dark with. And I think it was, At one point, we talked about Bazooka Joe, and there was a debate about, like, whether kids know Bazooka Joe, whether there was anything there.

I think there was a couple of iterations. And then I think we just finally added at Mrs. Butterworth, just because it was so ubiquitous, but a little bit kind of like old-timey. And like, why is that even still there? Like, now we look back at Mrs. Butterworth is kind of, you know, embarrassing, you know, from other perspectives. But it was one of these things that was still kind of sticky around back then. And also, you remember, like, there were those sort of animated Mrs. Butterworth commercials

from like, that's true. I forgot about those. I feel like from decades ago, like maybe or something like that, where she comes to life and, like, pours syrup for kids. And so somehow, like, that idea seemed like making that into an action figure seemed like a natural outlet where she has a machine gun that fires syrup everywhere. And the coolest thing about that was there was this great, we had a great SFX guy on Conan.

Eric, his last name alludes me, but he created, like, Johnny Five or Short Circuit. And he created a bunch of things for, like, big movies and stuff like that. I want to say Transformer, one of these movies, like he created, like, major effects for it. So that was not special effects. That was practical, as they call it, real-life effects, where they built a hydraulic machine. It wasn't actually syrup. Sorry to remove this show business glimmer. Spoiling everything on me.

They got like a thick, you know, thickened liquid, whatever it was with brown food coloring. But they built a hydraulic machine and ran these tubes up into her arms. So she fires a machine gun and it just fires like massive blasts of syrup everywhere, like in real time, not with CG again. And they also built something where, like, I had this effect in the script where someone would, in a fight, seeing in the fist fight, someone punches her. It's that rocky, I think, Rocky 3 slow-mo thing with, like, the face getting smashed and, and like his mouth guard and his blood and spit.

It's that cliche from boxing movies, basically, the blood and the spit comes out. But this was going to be syrup, and the syrup has to come out of the head, you know, the nozzle. So they also built a thing where, like, she had this sort of loose cap on her hat. And again, the hydraulic thing where, like, they punched her. And at the same time, as someone punches her, the hydraulics team sprays the surrogate. And then they film it in slow motion. I mean, then they edit it to slow motion. So it was like this amazing cool effect that they did in a live.

So like to have a whole production team that has done amazing like blockbuster movies doing this incredibly stupid, ridiculous thing for you, for your idea is like you don't know what kind of rush that is and like how crazy that is in like the scheme of things. That's fun. you know, it seems to me that when Conan really likes somebody, he makes fun of them. And I remember early on you telling me, because I knew people at the show that would get this sometimes where he would just either have his guitar or he wouldn't. And he would just, you know, the quickest mind and stuff. Wouldn't he talk about the Talmud with you and stuff? Like, what would he say to you sometimes, like, be joking around? Yes. He liked to have, he's not the only host. He'd do this. But what he would do is, uh,

A lot of people is like people on his team, he'd give everybody kind of a nickname and kind of like a riff or there was a thing about them that he would hook into. And so even though he had like multiple Jewish writers on the show, I'm probably like the most

Jewishly observant or affiliated. So he called me like the same way that he'd do songs towards Brian Kiley, he would also like do jokes about Boston. Brian Kiley identifies really strongly with Boston. So he'd make all kinds of jokes with him about that. So me, he'd make all kinds of jokes about Judaism.

And so like if we were like doing a monologue joke in a rewrite session and I point out same editorial problem with it. He's like, oh, he's like, oh, did you find that in the Talmud? Like, it was that kind of thing. And then he's almost, he would go a little deeper just case he's a genius knows everything. And he would like go into some deep cut thing. I can't remember examples. I wish I could. But like, he would tease me in this way that was like, he was sort of this, you know, he's from a family of like five Irish siblings. So like ballbusting is just like the nature of the business. That's just what you do all the time. So

he was doing this with his staff. So it was like this loving kind of bullying, but also with this level of engagement and interest that clearly meant that it wasn't, you know, anti-Semitic or cruel or anything like that. It was clearly like teasing at a sort of higher level. When you were at Dennis Miller Live, would Dennis really throw out just a normal conversation, sometimes these references? Oh, yeah, totally.

So it wasn't just contained to him. No, no, I mean, that was, I think that was like part of his, that's the way he thinks. Like, that's the way, I mean, that was this kind of innovation he brought to comedy in a way it was like to, to do that, because I think that's just naturally for him, you know, to that. It's interesting because nowadays is, like, I feel like comics might be afraid to do that because they're like, I don't want to lose anyone.

You know, I don't want to lose anyone along the way with a reference. And he was like, he was very hipster, right? It was like very much, as they say now, IK Y, Y, K, Y, K, if you know, Y, K, if you know, you know, like people do that. Like, he was just doing that kind of openly, I think, for his very, you know, he was also an HBO show, so very self-selected crowd, so they know what they're getting. trying to get network numbers, you know, for his show. But that's the way he thinks. It wasn't like an affectation. If you ever wrote references and gave it to him, would sometimes you not really

know what they were, but just be like, okay, this is popular. If this is what people, somebody knows, I'm just going to do it. If it gets a laugh, would he trust writers like that? Yeah, that was the funny thing, too, is that, right? So he came up with this album, the, you know, the off right album, which is a fantastic stand-up album. And then he did this stuff on Weekend Update on SNL, where he would do that. And then on his road, I'd act, you'd that. But for the show, the show was once a week. And so that's like a huge volume of shows. And he can't think of enough of those at volume that are going to be amazing references that really fit the situation. But he hired people who he thought he could. I mean, we had a very quirky writers group. He hired people

who come up with those. The funny thing, though, was that at least I was with him for the eighth and nine seasons. So he'd kind of like settled into kind of groove. And so he'd come in and he'd see what we wrote. And if you see a reference, instead of like kind of investigating it or asking the story about it, he'd be like, he'd say, is that a thing? We'd say, yeah, he'd say, cool, moving on. I mean, that was nice to. Like, he trusted us enough to, like, just, like, let that go and not even investigate any further. I know that one of your comedy heroes is Christopher Guest. I know that he was a guest when you were there. Would you be able to go backstage and say hi to some of the guests, or were you just working and just kind of

separated? Would you go backstage sometimes and say hi? No, it was, you know, what it was, was that show was so unlike the late night shows, which have like 16 things going on. They have the band. They have the comic. They have all the different set pieces. That show had a fixed format. So it was like monologue, the rant, which is Dennis's kind of signature piece, like his sort of like weekly tirade full of those references. That was the main place for those. And then funny captions on photos from the news. It was, oh, guest and then big picture photos. So it was just same format. So very predictable, very predictable schedule, which means that the guest was only coming on for their guest segment.

And then the show was done taping pretty, you know, relatively quickly within an hour. And then the guests would hang out in the green room. And, you know, the thing is about late night and being that thing is you don't necessarily want to do that that often. I feel, this is just me. I feel weird about like celebrities because you have this whole asymmetric relationship where like they mean a lot to you and you mean nothing to them. And then it's awkward for them.

And, you know, it's like the old Christopher Rlea show on S now. Sure. Yeah, George Lucas. remember that time you made Star Wars? That was awesome. You know, it's like, what do you say to someone who, like, but in a few exceptional cases, I really did want to meet them because they were heroes, like, George Carlin. So my point is, like, it was pretty easy at that show to go to the Green Room, which was like, they would just hang out there after the show was done for a little while. And the Booker was cool if you didn't ask too much. So like, I got to meet

George Carlin. I said, you're the reason I went into comedy and he said, is that a good thing? Which is perfect. Adam Carolla, my cousin was in from South Carolina. He was a big fan. bottom the show and I'd ask permission and he was like super cool to my cousin. I got to just bring him back to meet him. Christopher Hitchens was had a nice chat with him in between glugs of whiskey and cigar. Anyway, so yeah, when there are a few selected. And the same thing with Conan, like, I got to meet Dick Van Dyke, which is awesome. Got to meet Le Malwell Miranda. I got to meet they might be giants. But like, you know, most of the time you don't want to do it. But like, I think when you selectively don't ask the, you know, the bookers have a lot to deal with and they don't want to

be mob. So if you ask them very judiciously, I think they're cool with it usually. I always say, and I've been witnessed to this, is that there are certain celebrities that it helps them backstage. They're nervous and get somebody that wants to meet them is a positive thing. And I can tell sometimes that they actually gets them off their nerves. And they're like, oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think they all have really different feelings about, like, fame and, you know, just as an example, like, Conan was super into, like, being recognized and interacting the public all the time. Like, Andy was not into that. Like, Andy was not into that. Like, Andy's happy with being famous and doing lots of stuff, but he didn't want to be like,

when he was out of his performance vote, he wanted to just be a private citizen, you know, like the baseball cap, eyeglass, shades wearing kind of guy. Didn't want to be bugged when he was with his family. Conan was fine with it and liked it. So it just really depends on the celebrity, I think, like you said. Yeah, I think that you're right. And it depends just not. There's a variety of circumstances.

You were a writer's assistant. You got hired as a writer's assistant on Dennis Miller show. You were there for a couple seasons. When did you realize that you could start pitching jokes? because I have worked on shows where they would not, unless you were a writer, you would not even be able to suggest anything, and they would be so strict about that.

Was there anyone else that moved up the chain that way? And how did that go when you started pitch into Dennis when he was in the room? Yeah, every show has a different culture. And some cultures, they're amenable to that, promoting from within. In half hour, like sometimes they'll let the writer's assistant or two of the writers assistants like share a script

and then they get like a partial WGA credit which is helpful to them and of course the money from it and stuff and getting their work TV and then some of the late night shows were some of them were like you said and you know everyone stays in their whole everyone stays in their place

in the great chain of being and then shows like Dennis Miller was very cool about it several other people two of the people before me had moved up from writer's assistant interwriter the other show went both ways actually they had a period when they were into that

and then they stopped doing it and they went back to it. So it's interesting. It's kind of unusual. I was really fortunate that I was on two shows that did that. Well, at least the one that counted was the one where I got moved from writer's assistant. As far as pitching, because they'd known, you know, the person who sort of referred me to them, that had happened to them. That's how I got the job as my writing partner was an assistant and he got moved up. He recommended me to take over. So I knew that was part of the equation, but I was still super nervous about that. So basically, like, you would sort of submit some jokes anonymously during the week. Like, basically the writer's assistant

is compiling everybody else's submissions. And so I put my own page in with like my own submissions and that. And then, you know, if he uses them, he uses them or whatever, you don't get any credit or money. But I was like, please exploit me. What started happening, though, was Dennis, you know, Dennis is a guy who really values writers and it really likes to know who contributes to his show, which is not always the case. So like, if you really like to joke, he'd say he wrote this and I'd raise my hand sometimes. And so he's, he noticed where I was. And then I had this, I don't know, when I was in that age, I was so driven, I had this extra ball because, like, we would be in the writer's room on show day and there'd be, like, kind of a lull or people couldn't think of something. And I would just pitch things, like verbally. I can't imagine doing that now. Like, that's, and Dennis Miller, like, he's a good guy, but he's a little scary. You know, he's scary. And if you're on his bad side, like, watch out. So I just had this extra dose of courage and I would pitch stuff. And you got to be careful. I wouldn't just pitch shit. But, you know, I would pitch something. And sometimes it would be good. And so, like, Over time, over the course of the two seasons, I was assistant, he noticed that I was contributing.

And then finally, like the last season, one of the writers, senior writers left. And so there was some opening in the budget. And he noticed I was contributing and they had this culture. So I think he'd seen that I was contributing, like, you know, actively. And I think the head writer, Eddie Feldman had probably mentioned that I was getting stuff in the show. I think because he was a really good guy, supports the writer's assistant path to writer. And so all those things contributed to that. I know your wife then, when Dennis went to CNBC,

I know that she was, Cheryl was over there, right? And I know that Dennis really pushed for the writers. They were not WGA to go there. And I know that there might have been some resistance, but that Dennis pushed and was successful to get in that for the writers, which made a world of difference, I'm sure. Yeah, it's amazing because, yeah, so right after the HBO show wraps, they picked him off for CNBC.

But, you know, CNBC's financial network. It's like Tech Bros. Central. And they are not what you would call a labor-friendly site. But as I was just saying, Dennis, like, values writers so much that he does. demanded that his writers be gilled. And that's interesting too for people because of his politics sort of being on the right wing side of things. Again, also not like, you know, labor friendly. But the fact that he sort of put that outside of his sort of political predispositions and just said, like, take care of my people because they take care of me. Like that thought that was

really spoke well for him. What were the circumstances that you were doing data entry for Steven Spielberg? Oh, boy, more gotcha journalism, Malkoff. I get it. Yes. Getting my Pulitzer. It's good. Here we go. Yeah, that's funny. So when I moved out to L.A., it was after, like, I was in college, and then I spent a year abroad, and then I spent a year in D.C. working in, like, business. But I was always planning to come to L.A. And I was kind of like, you want to move out there with a job of some kind.

And I just had this plan. I was going to do it. And the thing that came up was Stephen Spielberg ran this project through USC, University of Southern California, called the Shoah Foundation. The show is the Hebrew word for Holocaust. And basically this was, he was trying to compile an archive of testimonies from Holocaust survivors before they passed away. I remember this, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I don't know where I saw this was job-lusted, but it was located on the universal lot, the Showup Foundation. And in my sort of like, this is the same hunger that I had that I described in the register room. In my hunger for like, I'm going to get on this train, even if I have to like use my fingernails to claw into the caboose as it's getting away, I said, I said to myself, okay. it seems like a good cause. It's a job. I could tell my parents I have a job. And when we get there without a job, I'm unemployed. And I'm going to be able to solve and Steven Spiel was involved. And, you know, in my mind, you know, I'm a, I'm a fictionalist. I'm a writer. So you always think three crazy steps ahead of what it actually is because it's just how you work. I was thinking, you know, maybe Stephen passes by sometimes. You know, maybe we'll chat.

Maybe I'll show them a script sometime. You know, you have to, you have to think of these ridiculous false hopes sometimes to keep yourself going. Because this business just beats you down if you don't, if you don't try crazy things sometimes. So I did it. So, and even better was that it was, um, it was on the universal lot. It was in a trailer, like one of those like celebrities get their makeup done it. It was like a trailer. They'd fit it out for this, a bunch of data entry people. He never walked through it all. We never saw them at all. But the, you know, the point was I think that like I want, it was sort of my way of getting sort of close to some way to Hollywood as a starting point. You know, I only was there for like three or four weeks

and then I got a job in post production at a company that makes trailers because I was like, this is really not working out. You know, it was cool for me at least to drive in a Europe a lot with a badge every day, like moving to Hollywood. That was fun. Oh, yeah. I do want to point out people that are listening. I mean, you go from Princeton to L.A. and your goal is to do TV comedy, more sitcom. And it took you about five years. You know, you were a PA on a sitcom until you got your writing gig. So, I mean, sometimes it takes people not that long. Some people fall into it. Most people, it takes at least that. But the fact that you were, in it for the long haul and you got very creative and even since generating so many of your

own projects just being proactive. I think if somebody's trying to go into a career like that is very helpful. I think the cliche is like, you know, the shark stops moving. I don't know if they die, but it like it's injuries. So they have to keep moving. They keep water going through their gills. There's something about that. It sounds like a motivational speaker TED talk thing. But like I think you do have to kind of keep moving in this field because the field keeps changing opportunities drop. I mean, that snitcho thing, right? Seven months after that, the most solid move in history is gone. You know, you just never know what's going to happen the next day. And you did not know you were going to go to TBS. That took how many, was it eight months that you were out of work? When did

you find out? Yeah, it was about, yeah, it was about eight or nine months. And I had a new baby defeat, right? So, yeah, that was kind of a scary time. And then he went on this tour, which is what's documented in that in that film, where he went around the country doing music and comedy and songs and stuff like that. We didn't really know what's happening. He was kind of incommunicado and then all these negotiations were happening behind the scenes. And then, so that's like January, right? The crazy two because of January, we're going off there. He goes, we get together with him to pitch some ideas for his tour and that was kind of it. He goes off and does this stuff. And then like August, we get a call saying, like, you need to come in and meet with the WJ because they are going to negotiate your salary for Conan.

Oh, no, we saw that there is, they announced in the trades and in the trade papers that there was going to be a TBS show. No one told us that. And one said anything to us about it. But we got a call from the WJ saying, come in and talk about your salary demands. I'm like, I'm like, for what? Salary for what? Like, we had no idea. So that's how we fed out. So we came in, met with them. And then basically that indicated that we were of interest to be hired for their show. So it was kind of this very, in a way, it was a very Hollywood story. Like suddenly something gets up and running and you got to jump, again, jump on the train. I don't know why I keep using Wild West, but it does feel like a train that's always moving.

The Johnny Carson writers, at least for some of the time when they were there, they could leave it, the monologue people could leave at one o'clock. They would hand their stuff in. Wow. There weren't, you know, like, let's give it another crack. Whereas, you know, the sketch writers, I mean, were there much later normally. Now, the way that Conan would work and then John Stewart, you would do an initial pass with Conan and then he would look at everything and then you'd be still working on new.

stuff is that how it would go or you would get notes from him and then you would both shows were the same way like i can't even imagine that that leaving at one p.m and i think also maybe like as compared even though i was on a monologue team ostensibly at conan we were still expected to pitch sketches like the mrs butterworth thing we mentioned like we're supposed to pitch them yeah so in both shows you write things in the morning you sort of send your first effort in whatever form that is you get notes of some kind you meet with the bosses and the talent john or conan you go back and you go back with her visions, you do more things. You pretty much work through the whole day, like from morning until, until tape, really up until taping, which in both shows, is around 5 o'clock. The other show

was very tightly run, so basically we taped it about, well, you know this. You're still better about this our early days, but that was like it. That was a tight, that was the tightest ship I've ever worked on where we were done at like sex, basically. So just as you're sitting out there in the bitter, hell's kitchen next to the Hudson freezing and cold. I felt bad for the audience, they were in that holding room sometimes for over an hour because they would be rewriting the show or waiting for a graphic. I remember our warm-up guy had to do one time an hour. Sometimes he would do 40 or 50 minutes where a warm-up should be three minutes, eight minutes. No, that's a lot. I mean,

sitcoms do that sometimes, I think. But yeah, that's a lot. Sitcoms do the four hours, but for something like that. For one of our shows, that's really unusual. Yeah. So that was a tight ship. We'd be out of there by six and they didn't really want us around after that because it's basically it was going right into editing and going to tape for that night. But then at Conan, after the taping, there was a big pitch meeting with everybody, monologue and sketch writers. The sketch team would be working on stuff during the day and meeting and stuff, but we were just in our offices writing monologue meeting with Conan for evaluation of our jokes and stuff. But then everybody was expected to come and bring pitches to the

pitch meeting, which was like after the show. And that was kind of a bit of a free-for-all as well. So, you know, we're getting out, like, more typical, seven, three, eight. Still not bad. It's for sitcom, that's still pretty good, too. Those go to, like, 2 a.m. sometimes. They're crazy, but. You have to set this up, the visual for me. I'm trying to figure this out.

John Stewart driving an ice cream truck. What are the circumstances, and how, did this happen a lot? I like how you set it up, like, a novelist, like, camera open, or whatever, like a screenplay writer, the camera finds John Stewart open. Yeah, so, you know, I think John always trying to keep it fun and keep it light. And so, like, as I said, we only taped Monday through Thursday. So on Fridays, it wasn't a production day.

And I think, like, probably twice a year, the show would sponsor a field day where, like, they go out to some place out in a borough or something like that where there was an actual field outside of Manhattan and, you know, have games and activities and something like that. And then John would drive up in an ice cream truck, like wearing the little hat, like the good humor man hat and like serve ice cream to everybody, which I thought was just very cool and like down to earth. Yeah, I know that sometimes they would do the softball games once in a while. John would play there and not, I don't think, often.

I remember when I worked at Colbert, they did some pickup, like a touch football game and John showed up to that right next to the field and stuff. But it's great when you can have a host like that Colbert, Stephen Colbert was very much like that too with rapport, just the good atmosphere with getting everyone there. Yes. You know, I worked with audiences for quite a while in television. What happened with Tom Cruise? They had this audience for Vanilla Sky, and I'd never had this happen.

happen. But Terry Abrams, she had to get people that had seen the movie to be audience members. Is this? No, it was the other way around. Like, as a condition, so Tom Cruise was a big get for The Daily Show. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't remember when Vanilla Sky was, it wasn't like super long into John's run. So he was still, you know, so that was like a big movie star get for them. One of Tom's conditions was that the audience had to be taken in a bus to see it first before the people who'd, you know, you, as you know, you sign up people in the audience ahead of time. So you know who's on the list, but the people had agreed to this. Like, they had to be taken in a bus to see the movie first and then brought to the taping, which, you know, late in the

day. And also, there was a, some kind of sponsorship tie-in with Burger King, which was not a usual thing, but I think to do with this movie. So they were all given Burger King meals. So, like, they're sitting there on waiting in the holding room. So, like, the whole studio smells like Burger King. And the whole audience has been taken away like this sort of, you know, hostages or cult or something like that. So very, very unusual, but like, you know, very memorable thing. And I think, like, we were all like, was that worth it or not? I guess it was a full day of entertainment and food. Yeah, that's a big commitment. I remember normally when, I'm Johnny Carson, at least, if somebody went on, the big people like Beatty, Warren Beatty would be, want to make sure

that Johnny had seen the movies. And if they didn't, it was really tough for them. Carson tried to see them. I'm sure John Stewart tried as much. And I know he read the books, which I'm not sure he tried. He definitely read the books, which was unusual. Like, either he'd read the book or he like definitely read a lot of it. which is pretty unusual for... He could speed rate, I heard. Somebody told me that. I think it might have been corrugated.

He must have because he would have so many... I think when Conan would have authors on it, was someone that he liked, he'd read their books and he liked them already, so he was interested in them. I don't think either of them made a big effort to watch the movies, and I think that became less of a... I think as a contrast with the Carson era, probably the Leno era to some extent.

I don't think that was felt as to be necessary. I feel like Letterman probably, if I had to guess, Letterman broke the mold on that. Because, you know, his whole attitude of, like, This is all wink, wink, this is all kind of a big show that we're doing. I feel like that kind of deconstructed the pretense of like, oh, we're all big fans of you and your movie and that sort of stuff. To be fair, Carson's, like, Carson's a good sport.

And he was playing along with the culture of the times. And I think the irony of the 80s and the 90s kind of broke that. And so like there wasn't really a pretense. But, you know, also like the cool thing about these hosts is they wouldn't say that. Conan did this amazing set of phrases. He would be like, he's like, this new movie yet. People are loving this. like this is really the talk of the town

like there's all these ways of saying not really saying anything about it but just like being positive which is really funny Letterman it seemed like if it was like Merrill Streep or Denzel Washington or somebody he would see the movie but if not yeah it didn't always happen

you wrote these I don't know if it was a runner or it was just a one time on Conan you did the Jersey Shore screen tests you actually got these A list performers was that for TBS Was that for the Tonight Show? Yeah, that was another one of these, like, pitches.

And, you know, it was always like some, a pitch was always based on some, like, you know, maybe even the tiniest news story. And I just saw that the Jersey, this is like, I don't know which season it was, but Jersey Shore had been around for a while. They were just, you know, the way they would do, they were teasing, we're adding a new cast member. And that's all they say. Yeah.

So I just pitched this idea. I was like, what if we, like, found, what if they were like auditioning like a list people for it? And we found the screen toss for it. And we showed those. My hat's off to the, to the talent bookers. Like, they got all these publicists to bring in, like, big stars to do this, like, this bit, you know, which is not usually what they do. Usually you come in, you got it, you have a project to plug.

You're going to be pampered in your green room and stuff like that. Like, these are a good sports. They got, we got like John Lithgow, Anne Hathaway, Paul Rudd, Jack McBrayer. And, like, the joke was that they would come in. And I went through transcripts of previous Jersey Shores with the aid of the research department. And we found just like really juicy, like, what's the most ridiculous quote? And I would just, so I picked out all these quotes from the show and would like match them up to the actor for like the biggest mismatch. And it was really funny because Anne Hathaway, like you think

of hers is this very kind of prestigious, you know, kind of a very cultured sort of like her roles and stuff. And she like just let herself be really loose and crazy with it and like super fun. It was Jesse Eisenberg did this thing where it was, I think it was a little of the situation and he's talking about like how he does dance moves. And he's like, we're not just out there doing a dance, we're out there beating the beat. We're going to beat the beat until we beat the beat, like some stupid ass thing they would say. But imagine like Jesse Isamirk doing his little bit. He's like, he's like, we're going to get out there and we're going to beat the beat. And we're not going to stop beating the beat until the beat is beat, you know, that sort of thing. So it was

that kind of thing. And it was just amazing because it just showed me that like the side of celebrities where they could just really like let their hair down and just do something really loose and silly. And it was so popular. They brought it back like two more times. And then people wanted to do it because they'd seen it and they enjoyed the first time. That's always great. It's super hard when you're a writer to get one of those pieces where it recurs and it just can lend itself. It's really hard. Some of your favorite daily show pieces that you worked on, I know that you worked with Lewis Black on, it was a rant on congressman's attempts to use the web. What was it like working with Lewis? Lewis is a dream. And the funny thing is for a guy who's so like hard edge, he's like the biggest teddy bear. He's such a sweetheart. I actually got him to do some other projects for me on the side. And he would always say, yeah. of stuff. There was something I wanted him to tape that he was so busy. He was like moving out

or something like that. But he said, if you meet me at my storage locker, I'll do a pre-taped for you for five minutes. Like, I mean, imagine like being nice enough to like offer that instead of just like, you know what, I'm busy. I got a thing. So he was super nice. But the funny thing is like, and he wouldn't really like come in to work with you. He just come in and do the thing. But his voice was so specific and so unique that everybody could lock into his voice. And the way the Daily Show worked was, like, every day you'd have a different assignment. Sometimes you'd write the headlines, the top, this news story, the top. Sometimes you'd write the correspondent dialogue with the anchor.

And sometimes you would write those specialized pieces like the Lewis Black or John Hodgman or people like that. So anytime, like, someone was working on a Lewis Black, like, you'd have two people working on per piece, you'd walk down the halls and you hear people going like, idiot. Like, people are like, and you see them doing like the, your wrestlers can't see this, but I'm doing like the clenched fist to the heavens thing he'd done. does, like that iconic thing he does. People were doing that just to, like, get to this thing.

So you just notice, oh, they're working on a Louis Black piece. I get it. It was a normal thing in our workday. Probably took the interns a little bit of time to realize that. You also worked with Larry Wilmore on, is America ready for a black president? What was it like working with him on that piece? All right. So, spoiler alert, we weren't.

Sorry to reveal that. But, yeah, this was 2008. It was actually kind of a dream because I had been a long admirer of Larry Wilmore's career as a writer-producer, you know, on tons of shows. I knew his name really well, and he's just someone I'd always want to work with, you know, on his staff. And then he wanted to get into performing and comedy and stuff. So he reached out of The Daily Show and I think he pitched this idea of him coming on as their black correspondent. And so this was in 2008 and it was when Obama was running the first time. And there was this sort of cliche, you know, the Daily Show would pick up on

cliches that all the news was parroting. It was parroting. And it was like, is America ready for a black president, which is a bit condescending basically in two directions, honestly. That's the kind of thing we like to make fun of. And so we went around taking that ultra seriously and like, you know, quizzing people on whether they thought America would blow up if we had a black president and you know, how black a president, like what level of melanin and his skin would be ready for, that kind of stuff. So that was cool because the producer on that, Glenn Clemens, who has since gone on to be one of James Corden's right-hand people, he does carpal karaoke. Yeah, no, I know. He's a great guy and has been so successful. Yeah, I think he directed part of the

Olympics opening ceremonies. Oh, he was there for that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, right. So he's a great guy. He was working on that. And then he got pulled off to do a field piece with Rob Brigal and China. Rob Bogle went to China. And so obviously that's a bit taxing and labor intensive. So he had to go work on that. Sometimes the field producers are juggling a couple pieces, but he had to go work on that fully. So what the way the field pieces work was like the writers would pitch a few ideas for the, you know, the comedians are kind of like, all have a skill, have a background and improv, the Daily Show correspondents do. So they're good on their feet, but you also send them out with what are called wild lines,

which are like, here's some jokes or some ideas you could use, keep them in the back of your head. So they have some ideas and they can decide how to deploy them or not to. So the writers would help pitch that. Then they go out and film, and then they come back and then sculpt a piece. And then the writer usually sits with the producer, looks at the footage and figures out, like what the piece actually is and where to add more gags like graphics and music and stuff like that. So I was sitting in with Glenn on this piece as they were producing it. And then Glenn got pulled into China and he said, you're going to have to take it over and

produce it, which was amazing for me because the writers there didn't really get to do that very much. At Conan, if you pitched something, you produced it all the way through it from soup to nuts. You pitched it. You liaised with all the departments. You directed it. You looked at storyboards. You did everything. At a daily show, you basically were just writers and then production was separate. And this was also pretty early in my career. So to get like a credit being produced, and especially like a really cool, I think, business piece that was really fun and with a guy that I, you know, I'd really admired. So it was a great, like, opportunity for me to, like, grow my skills and kind of take ownership of something that

I'd only been to kind of like a partial participant in it until then. You're teaching late night writing, correct? I mean, you've been doing this for so long, it makes sense, helping so many people. Can people just sign up? Or is it with it? Yes, I'm teaching. I'm teaching Lee and writing at Loyola Marymount University Film School, which is actually, you may not have heard about it, but it's actually like a top, it's ranked the fifth best film school in the country right now. And the students are really good. The talent level is really high, but it's this little,

it's a Jesuit university. It's in the wetlands of L.A., like pretty near the water. There's a wild location. But anyway, it's this great film school. What happened was a previous writer, Guy Nicolucci, you might know. Conan. He was on Daily Show first, actually, and then he was on Conan.

So I've been sort of following him. He had been teaching there, and then he got a job teaching in New Jersey. at Montclair State. This was in 2018 when Conan went to half hour and I wasn't part of that writing staff anymore. And I was looking for new things to do. And he said, hey, I've got to move but they need a writer. You want to take over this classroom because you have the experience. I was like, I don't teach. I don't know how to teach any of this stuff. And I'm scared of students. But he had like, he had a curriculum. He worked out a bit. And as I said, the students are actually very talented. They were very nice. And I really enjoyed it.

So now I'm in my, I want to say ninth semester teaching it. Yeah, it's been like five years almost, I think, teaching it. So that's fantastic. You seem always doing, you're doing all these other projects. One of them I want to mention, it's godsgang.com. What is that? Well, dot com is just the website. But it's a, we're trying to create, this isn't my idea, but I'm the head writer for it.

This is really entrepreneur used to work for Disney and has made his money in tech. wanted to create a show that was sort of like Power Rangers, but where the four heroes are all from the four major faith groups. And they're all buddies and they kind of go around in a Scooby-Doo van, kicking butt, like fighting aliens and bad guys and stuff like that as kind of a way of like teaching kids and families about like tolerance and like, why can't we all just get along and work together and put our differences aside. And he had this, he'd had this concept of this. He hired a marketing team. He'd made some character already had some ideas for it. It's never a writer, but a mutual friend of mine recommended me because he knew I had some interest

in religion. And I just really just thought it was a great idea. Like, not just a good thing for the world, but just like really creative and different. A lot of, you know, animation ideas kind of have a, sometimes sometimes have a similar template or, you know, there's not that many good ideas. So just something like this I'd never heard of. And I thought, this is really interesting and it could have worldwide appeal, which is important nowadays as well. And so, you know, it's been a fun thing. So, so we wrote, so I wrote the part. pilot and he raised investment capital to film it. And what they decided was a topic, a show about religion is a topic that's too, a bit controversial for studios and streamers. You know,

religion can be very dicey. So if we walk into Netflix with that, they're going to be like, that's a little touchy for me. I don't know about religion. You know, we might get complaints, etc. So instead, they had the strategy of putting the pilot online and letting people respond to it to show that there's an audience for it. And then when they get enough, love, then turn around and show the buyers that look, people are really into this. And I think it's worked because they've got like over a million and a half subscribers in YouTube. And Mark, I hope you're sitting down. Are you sitting down? I am. I can see. Almost all of the YouTube comments are nice. Whoa. Oh my gosh. I know. Scrap your,

scrape your exploded cranium off the ceiling. But yeah, people like this. That is a fresher in. I got to check. People like it. People are like, we need this. Yeah. And we're getting like, thousands a day and stuff like that. So I think it's, I think, they were on the right side of us. It doesn't be really nice, I think, with all the stuff in the world to be part of something that's like beyond just making people laugh, like something that could actually, you know, influence a child or an adult for good. That's fantastic. Before we go, do you have any Norm McDonald's stories over at Conan? Oh, you know, I don't. I mean, like his clips on Conan, like you can't beat, like, you know, his moth story. Like, you know, you can't beat that. Here's the best guest on

those shows. The only thing I'll say, about him is that I think he was one of those people that like, I mean, Conan was like cool with everybody, like he was comfortable, but like there's obviously people he'd rather be on with. You know, he's very type A. So he gets like very intense about the show being good, despite the Brian Kylie guitar stuff. He was taking it very seriously. But like when someone like Norm was on, you would just see him relax. Like he was just like, I don't know what this is going to be, but I'm just going to buckle in as a passenger just go for the ride. Like it was this different vibe that came over him. I thought that was really cool too. It was kind

like Dennis, Dennis Miller was that way when, um, when David Spade would come on. Because they had this, like, they had this, they had this vibe. Spudley, he would call on Spudley. Yes, you do Spudley. Yes. They would just, they would, and Carvey too. Like, you know, they would, they would, they would just have this, this bond that you just tell that they were just going to get in this, get in this ride together and to see where it went. And it was just like pure fun for them. And that was really nice. It was a bit of a contrast from the usual kind of like, you know, more thoughtful, programmatic way that the show was put together. It was just like, we're going to go

along for this comedy ride and we don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be great. Yeah, this has been fun. Good luck with everything. And thank you for all of this that we got to do this. And yeah, wish you the best of luck. Yeah, thanks. Can I just make a quick plug? Please. Just to recap that point, so this thing we're doing with God's gang, the only way that we'll get a show like this on the air. And I stand by it. Like, if you like my comedy, you'll like it. Like, it's legit funny and it's good action. But if you want to see something like this in the world, like the only way we will do it is if they get a ton of likes and all that on the YouTube channel. So if you're at all intrigued,

by what I said, go to god's gang.com. You can even, there's a short, small episode that's three minutes and there's a 12-minute pilot. Just watch one of those. And even if you don't hate it, just get them a like because, you know, whether I work for it or not, it just needs to be in the world. So give that a look, please. And please give it a like.

Positivity. I sound like a YouTuber. Smash that like button, bro. Well, yeah, that's great. Thank you. I'm just for sharing your life. And you're seriously, I've known you for a long time. One of the nicest, most supportive people, whenever I've needed anything or like ideas to

bounce around and stuff. You were always been there. Oh my God. They're the same, man. We're too nice for this world. Both of us are too nice. Oh, yeah. Just trying to get through. Rob Cunner, thank you so much for talking with us. This was fun. This is a blast, as always talking with you is. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple podcast, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news and you can find my podcast at latenighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next Tuesday. We're going to be able to be.

I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. We're going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. We're going to be. I'm going to be able to be.

Thank you.