Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Robert Smigel Returns

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Robert Smigel returns to join Mark to discuss his Saturday Night Live sketches, Lorne Michaels, Bob Odenkirk, the brilliance of Jack Handey, & more. Presented by https://latenighter.com/ and check out https://latenighter.com/podcasts/. Triumph Special on YouTube- “Lets Make a Poop” Follow on X (Twitter): @TriumphICDHQ Subscribe to: YouTube Channel Follow on TikTok: @triumphicdhq   Follow on Instagram: @triumphicdhq INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/markmalkoff TWITTER: https://twitter.com/mmalkoff Check out https://latenighter.com/podcasts/. Please subscribe, Rate, and leave a review

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff, and welcome to Inside Late Night presented by latenighter.com. Robert Smigel returns to the show. He was gracious enough to talk to me again. Here is part one of that conversation in which we discuss his SNL sketches, Lauren Michaels, Bob Odenkirk, the brilliance of Jack Handy, and more. Now it's time to go inside late night. Robert Smigel, thank you for the last 15 minutes of doing tech with me. I've had some questions for literally 25, 30 years, so thanks for coming back.

Yeah, my first one is, how with the nude beach, with Matthew Broderick, who's one of the most famous gestures you wrote, how did Tom Hanks do it first at dress or rehearsal? And how did it get cut? Did it not perform well at dress? So the sketch was written for Tom Hanks the year before, and I believe we read it at a table read, did great, and the network was absolutely adamant that they would not have it on their show. And so Conan and I and Bob Odenkirk performed Happy, have a good show that summer in Chicago, and we performed. We opened with that sketch, and it did great. great. I recently played a version of it for Conan. And then when we got back to New York at the end

of the writer's strike and the beginning of the next season, NBC had dissolved their standards department. Now, I don't know if that was some version of downsizing that they chose to do because they took some economic hit, or if it was because basic cable and pay cable We're starting to lap network TV in terms of relevancy. And they started to feel like we have to be more permissive of what we put on network television. And so we came back and we were told there's no standards department anymore. There was somebody who was this there who was kind of like supposed to, you know, represent a remnant of decency.

you know a token representative of a token advocate for standards but they let the nude beach go this time so Tom Hanks was the first show of the season and we did it at a dress rehearsal I'm actually in that dress rehearsal version because they I don't remember why but they didn't have as many I think it had to do with Phil Hartman not wanting to ever be shirtless in a sketch. So it did okay. It did pretty well, but that was a very strong show.

I believe that's the show that we won an Emmy Award for for the writing of. And so it was packed with a lot of good stuff. The very next week, Matthew Broderick hosted, and we had Matthew Broderick

be the, I think in the original version, maybe Dana was the new guy at the nude beach. And Tom Hanks was kind of in Dana's role. And then the following week, Matthew Broderick was the new guy because he was so, it was such a signature Matthew Broderick thing to sort of play the victim at that point and straight man in movies.

And then, yeah, and then the sketch made it. I love when Dennis Miller would actually do with sketch here and there, which stopped, unfortunately. He just didn't want to do the block in, but I thought he was really funny in that. Yeah, I don't. I think he may have been the guy who wasn't in it the week before. I cannot remember. I wanted to talk about the season premiere of 1995. It was Will Ferrell's first episode. Yeah. You actually wrote the cold open two cold opens in a row.

Yes. OJ sketches. The first was the OJ courtroom. And it was the whole news. It's like OJ weather and OJ, shame on you. And I was there for that. And that absolutely kept the next week, you write this cold open with Adam McKeough And it's the whole famous, I did it. I want two questions. One, can you describe the sketching two? Was the, I did it beat you or McKay? That beat was me.

So the first week, I think I may have mentioned this, that Lauren, that was the new season, the turnover season. After all that rigmarole from the New York Magazine article that had come out and the show was really kind of on the ropes. and Lauren, there were rumors that they were going to replace him. And then that didn't happen, thankfully. And Lorne called me in and asked me to be the producer under him. I think there was a perception that I always wanted to run the show because I was young and opinionated, but I never did. Never did.

I always wanted Lauren to stay in. I thought Lauren and Jim Downey were the perfect balance. Now Jim Downey was gone, and Lauren wanted me to be sort of the guy under him and eventually take over. But I just, it was not my aspiration to do that. And the same time Dana Carvey was approaching me about doing a new show in prime time, and that just seemed like a much more interesting challenge to just start from scratch. I was going to ask you this. Somebody that we both know, I mentioned this to him that you were offered the number two.

And he's like, I've never heard that. I don't think it's true. And I was like, no, I don't think the public or the people that are fans know this, even people that might know you. I wouldn't make it up. Why would I make it up? I know, because you're very modest. You're not going to be telling people.

But USA Today report, it was you, Steve Higgins, were up for it. And I think, Adam Resnick may have been interviewed for it. I know Judd Apatow, I think, interviewed for it. at one point. I mean, Steve Higgins, it's not like Steve Higgins had a ton of, you know, years and years of sketch writing. John Stewart Show head writer. Yeah, he worked first John Stewart, but that was a very, you know, fairly brief amount of time. But Steve ended up having, I think, perfect personality and skills for the job. I think it worked out great. And I think if Lauren ever leaves, I hope he doesn't. I hope he stays as long as he wants. But if he ever did, I think Steve Higgins would do an excellent job. Yeah, I was talking to Rachel Tradge yesterday, and I said the people that I would think would be up for Tina Faye, Seth, Myers, Steve Higgins, and you, those are the only four people I can think of that. And I mentioned her also. I don't know how they would deal with the network. I mean, you and Tina both.

worked with and so forth. But I sat too and Higgins. My point is, this is my point. If you took the number two job, if you did take it, the next few years of the show would have been unrecognizable from what actually got on with the writing. That very first season in 95, let me explain. It was a nice balance of characters and premises. It was really the writers and actors working together. Jim Carrey finale heads, which is very funny, almost all over the top characters. And I realized at the time, I liked to watch it for the writing, and I was, it was not going to be, the show was not going to be as much for me. It was just over the top sketches and very few premise pieces, which would never happen under you. I think you're right in that the sketch, the sketches got a little less premise oriented.

I really can't say, I mean, what it had in common with Lauren for sure was, I love watching performance. performers. I love watching them develop characters. And, you know, it all came out of the cast he chose now. Would I have had a different opinions upon people? I have no idea because I wasn't there. The cheerleaders would not have gotten on whatever 17 times if you were there. Well, I mean, I, you know, I made fun of that in a cartoon. I mean, yeah, that wasn't, I would have probably represented Downey's sensibility a little more than the other people that were around Lauren having worked under Downing. I don't even know if cheerleaders would have gotten on and Will Ferrell mentioned that. I do want to mention church check out.

Oh, it would have gotten on. It would have gotten on. It would have gotten on. But maybe they wouldn't have done. I mean, Will Ferrell, I heard from him and he said that he didn't want to be doing cheerleaders as much as they were doing. But you had. Sure. Scott Wolf was hosting and he was like on Monday. He's like, I want to do the cheerleaders. And Will in his head is like, I don't want to be doing this. But the hosts have so much say that they ended up. doing it. And same with Molly with Mary Catherine Gallagher. She didn't want to be doing it as much as they were, but the hosts when they come in. And that was sort of Lauren's mentality too at the time, right, is we're going to do mango as much as we can because it works. I mean, I, you know,

I, again, I was not part of the brain trust there. I wasn't even there. I was, I really wasn't part of that 1995-96 season at all. You wrote some sketches. Al McPherson. I wrote those. two sketches. L. McPherson, you wrote the whole about... Yes, yes. Every now and then, I would come in with an idea. I wrote an L. McPherson sketch about the Sports Illustrated issue, and I wrote... A swimsuit issue, yeah. Yeah, like it was a holiday special, and I wrote...

Like I said, I wrote for the Damon Wayans episode. That was the year before. Oh, that was the year before. Okay, I'm so confused. Yeah, I know. You actually are a normal person in my mind with this stuff, as you mentioned before. And the guy, I love it, sort of carving the Star Trek sketch that you wrote. Right, right, right. I have moments, I would have moments of inspiration. I was like, you know, it was a very happy time in my life, actually, because I wasn't attached to anything.

I had left Conan to write a De Beers movie, and then that didn't go. And then I was just kind of free, you know, it wasn't until like late 95 that I started. working on the Dana Carvey show. And I did feel like a tiny twinge of not guilt for turning down the producing job, but just there was something that made me want to, I didn't want to let Lorne down. They figured it. It worked for them. It took them a bunch of years to really, I mean.

No, he picked wonderful. Yeah. It picked a lot of wonderful performers. And, you know, and there was a core of excellent writers there. It just skewed more toward, you know, recurring characters at the time. But, you know, the show was trying to reinvent itself and get out of the Ivy League is what Lauren told me when I met him. He wanted to get out of the Ivy League. He felt like it had become too righterly, especially that last season.

It was. And the season before, but definitely that season was very, yeah. Yeah, it had gone too far into this. normal people in strange situations kind of world. And he wanted to bring back performance energy. So he hired a lot of people who had built in home runs like Sherry and Will and Molly. Molly had already been hired the year before, but she really came into her own. But those first two episodes, I was like, I really want to help.

And I was obsessed with the OJ trial like everybody else. So I came up with the evidence card joke and the Johnny Cochran sketch for the first episode. And then the second episode, believe it or not, I wasn't thinking about doing anything. And then my brother-in-law, so then the second episode was-chabby hosted. Well, it was the verdict. That was the week of the verdict. Like, you know, so that's why there was such a reason to do the OJ stuff because we knew it was why. down. So I wrote the cold open for the first one, which was basically like a closing argument

on Johnny Cochran's part. And then O.J., like that Monday, was acquitted. And then my brother-in-law, Mitch Rutter, I saw him. I don't remember if there was a Jewish holiday, like Rosh Hashanah or something. But we were at the table and he said, what if OJ is back already back? It was his idea. What of OJ's already back at NBUTC. Oh, he's back on NBC with Kostas? Yeah, and I just thought that was so funny. And then I just wrote that up, and then I told McKay about it, and he helped me write it up. He had it, he's besides being hysterical, and we'd already started to get along a little bit,

but he also is a big sports guy. And, you know, that's not necessarily the easiest thing to find within a writing staff. Yeah, they have, right now, have Brian Tucker who was really good with the sports sketches at the time. But man, did that thing just destroying people still talk about it. Do you want to mention in the show's defense, church chat was done a lot when you were there. But I argued that it was it was a device for topical humor. They would have guests and they would talk topical versus the cheerleaders, which was fun, but it was the same thing pretty much every time. Yeah. And I don't think church chat was done as much as the cheerleaders was. Yeah, I think they're probably right. on that, I believe it was 92. Seinfeld host, and he does stand up and win, because you write that, how soon does Larry David approach you with a writing gig for Seinfeld? It was at the end of the week.

I mean, that's the only time I ever saw him was he'd come to the show with Jerry. And yeah, I think he had like three sketches on. He had some very funny sketches on. They all got, didn't they get cut, though? Did he actually get something on? Oh, maybe, maybe. I think one of them, I did that Superman was on. and that was that was larry that and he got he wrote something about a boat or a ship that i yeah bosun's

something about a bosen yeah that got cut that got cut but then there was one other i think that either had to do with passover was that elijah the prophet lary david's it was elijah was sinfeld as elijah i'm not sure it was larry's i don't know i got i i could look it up but that show was brilliant 92 it was an excellent show and stand up and win was probably the biggest hit of that Well, no, there was a Turner's wrote a great, great piece where he was a teacher and the students were really dumb. The Turner's wrote that. I always wondered who wrote that. That Seinfeld episode was one of the best episodes I've ever seen top to bottom.

I remember it being a very solid episode, and Jerry was a great host, and he had a great sense of humor about stand up and win. And Larry, just at one point, you want to write for the show? You could write for the show. You could do it. We would hire you. Larry had an eye clearly for sketchwriters. That's where he came from. And I wasn't able to do it. It was the only, I think I said this the last time we spoke. It was the only sitcom I ever thought I could write for. The only sitcom I ever wanted to write for. This was 92. And of course, Steve Corrin and David, David Mandel left SNL. And they went over there. So yet, he was definitely big into... The sketch writer. Yes.

Corrin Mandel. I think there was one other from the show. Andy Robin. Oh, okay. Andy Robin was, didn't write for S&L for a long period of time, but he was there for a little bit. And I believe Andy even still works with Jerry,

has worked on the Pop-Tarts movie. Oh, and Spike's from Essend. Yeah, of course, of course. Yes, he wrote update jokes. He wrote some update jokes. He was not ever hired as a writer. How did Motivation, speaker with when Bob Odenkirk was a writer at the show with Arley in 90 to 91, how did

motivational speaker not get past read through? I don't think it ever got to read through. That's amazing that it took three years until it finally got on the show just because it was a signature piece at Second City. It makes no sense. It made no sense. I, yeah, Lauren had seen it at Second City. I don't quite understand why nobody said, well, that's going to be on the show within the first four weeks, you know, I don't know what happened. He might have read it at a read-through once. I don't really recall what happened. I just remember somehow it came up when Christine Applegate was on that, oh, she'd be a really good, you know, she and Spade would make really good teenage kids to be yelled at by Chris. And then it was just

basically put in my hands to produce and handle. I didn't want to touch it, really, but then when I read it, I think I even may have watched, I bet I did. I bet I watched a video of the performance at Second City, and that's where I felt like, for TV, I think this ending's a little flat. And so I wrote this ridiculous. tiny little coda where he he's Matt's going to shadow you and he's like were you here Matt's there you go Matt goes whatever it was and he's going back and forth

and he breaks the coffee table and it worked it was great Farley did it magnificently and it did help the sketch and I felt great about somehow helping make an amazing character sketch just a tiny bit funnier but what was not good about it was

that I don't think Farley had ever done anything up to that point where he had broken something where he had done a clumsy Joe I mean the thing that was amazing about Farley from the day we saw him at Second City

where he became he was instantly the most obvious higher ever was his grace was the fact that he was a big guy who was incredibly graceful and athletic. That's what made him interesting. That's not the only thing that made him interesting,

but that was the physical quality that made him interesting. He did this bit. It was hysterical. But then the following year, and I don't remember, you tell me, it was 92. The motivational speaker came out

at the end of 92 to 93. It was 1993. It was the second, I think it was the second to last episode of that season. Oh. Okay. So then I left the show. Yeah, so I was gone. That was like my next to last show. And then the next season, you came back and you worked on the motivational speaker when Sally Field hosted, it was Santa. You worked on it a little bit. Yes. But then it became, yes, they wanted another one and I, I don't remember if that was my idea. I don't think it was, but I definitely helped with it.

And we did another, you know, Pratt, I don't remember what damage happened. But then it became a thing where that became the move with Farley. It's true. Many sketches where something wrong would happen. And a lot of times it was hysterical. Fred Wolf wrote an amazing sketch that took place in, I can't remember. It was a period piece and Farley. Oh, it was little women.

It was a little. Yes, yes. Yeah, Fred Wolf was so, I mean, that guy, some of his stuff, Mr. Belvedere Van Club. Oh, yeah. I was going to ask if you or Fred Wolf wrote this one sketch, which is Woody Harrelson hosting on the finale and it's take off your shirt, it's all the guys at the beach. I think it was Samler's idea. Would that what? Samler has the outy belly button, you know, is everyone takes off their shirt.

I know. I remember the sketch. I'm pretty sure it was Adam's idea. Was it? And such a funny sketch. I always thought it was you or Fred Wolf, but Adams beat. was the got the biggest laugh with the out the they take off their shirts what do you hear else it's like come on take off your shirt and it's like nielan is covered with fur and carvey has a baboon heart i was

always wondering who wrote that bob oding kirk you get on saturday night live he's on for three and a half seasons bob told me he got very few sketches on this show he also told me and he said this publicly him and lorn were not very fond of each other and i'm being very much um yeah they didn't really like each other that much. How did he last three and a half seasons and also pissed off a lot of the other writers? How did he not get fired? Because he was, everybody knew he was talented. Everybody knew that me and Conan and Greg loved him. And we worked with him a lot. And he did get some great stuff on the show. It wasn't like motivational speakers, the only good thing he ever got on the show. He got some great things on the show. He just didn't

do it with the frequency of other writers. but, you know, he'll remember them better than I will. He did the grumpy old man. He did the teeth, the British toothpaste. That was basically, yeah, that's something we kind of came up with together. But he had more of it than I did. He definitely wrote more of that than I did. It was more his thing.

He had, he wrote Bushwhacked, which is like the first time Dana ever played Bush, I think, or maybe the second. And then he wrote, I don't know, he had a funny idea that we did that I helped him write for George Steinbrenner where he played a boss who, or what was it? He had trouble firing people. Yes, he couldn't stand firing people. He worked in like a store or something. Yeah, yeah. He worked in like a little bodega or something. I don't know.

And it was really well done and popular. He did love toilet at the commercial the love toilet as well. That was his idea. So, yeah, give him some praise out, too. I don't think that was his idea. It was 100% his, and then Al Brankin contributed to it. They worked on it to get the Lop toilet. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I always thought of it as a Franken thing. It was Bob's idea. Oh, great. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so the whole Lauren, that's to Carol Burnett, which he's been saying since the 70s. I don't think he says it anymore.

Now, was he talking about the actor, the style of actors maybe playing over the top or the style of writing? When he would say, that's two Harold Burnett, that what was he specifically talking about when he would say that to writers and performers? I think that was more of a 70s thing. It didn't come up a lot in my era. The thing I remember most is that he just couldn't stand anybody breaking. You threatened to fire people.

I mean, that was his thing during that time, which is, like, you look at the show now and it's unrecognizable from what he wanted the show to be in the 70s and so, like, I guess, the mid-90s. Well, you know, you get older and I think you take stuff. less seriously in general. Like, it's just television. I think, you know, he was in his like early 30s and I'm sure the stakes were so high and he wanted to make his mark and he did and he did it brilliantly. And sometimes this happened with Conan and our show where, you know, and I'm borrowing a phrase he, Laurenism, as they call it, he says, you define yourself, when you're young, you define yourself by what you don't like. So I'm sure that. that some of the choices he made at S&L were defined by other shows that he didn't want to be like,

whether it was laughing or Carol Burnett or any other variety show that had been on up to that point. He, you know, identified things he liked about them and identified things he didn't like about them. And that begat original moves that made Saturday Night Live what it was. So there might have been other aspects that were too Carol Burnettie, as you used to presumably say, but I don't recall anything beyond the breaking. I don't know if you've ever talked about this. And believe it was 89. It was Mike Myers. It was like his fourth show.

It might have been 88. He's going to submit a sketch. And you tell him, according to Mike Myers, you don't want to hand this sketch in. It's two Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. It's been done. you don't want to submit this sketch. And Myers is like, you know what, I'm going to put it in anyway. And it's the last sketch in the read-through, and it kills in it's Wayne's world.

Do you have any recollection of that conversation with him? Here's what I remember, and Conan has talked about this. He showed us some, like, videos of the character, the Wayne Campbell character, without a sketch around it. And we thought it was okay, didn't kill us. It was just, you know, slice of life kind of semi-stoner dude from the Burbs. It wasn't really a world I knew very well either because I grew up in the city and Conan probably didn't hang out with those kind of kids in Massachusetts. So it didn't really connect with us. That was when he first, first got there.

We were much more attracted to and excited by the Sprockets character. Oh, man, that's so funny. Well, and that was something that we understood more, and it was more satirical, and it was parodying pretentious European culture, you know, or pretentious European counterculture. Yeah, so we love that, and we were much more interested in writing for that, and we did actually help him with a number of his Sprocket's sketches over the years, as did Jack Handy. Jack Andy loves Sprockets and ended up writing the movie with him. Such a funny sketch. Yes, have you read this screenplay? I mean, it was so funny with Dick Van Padden.

Is it is, uh, was supposed to be? No, but I would love to, uh, I would love to. But then Wayne's World, I remember he put it in read through. It got kind of polite laughter. Then it went to dress rehearsal, didn't do great. But I was, and it was a rare moment. in the show's run where I was in the room where it happens, as it were. I was like, I had been promoted to co-producer with Tom Davis and Jack Handy,

and I can't remember if the turn were in there. Franken was on Franken, yeah. I ended up asking out of that job because I felt like there are way too many people in the room now and they're protecting each other's sketches, in my opinion. And that's how I felt at the time, that nobody would trash each other's sketches because it became very political. And I didn't like being a part of it. I'm proudly one of the only people who's ever asked for a demotion on the show. I mean, one of your jobs as producer that was so noble that I still can't believe it didn't happen is you try to get Colbert on so many times as a cast member.

Marcy Klein has said that she wanted Colbert as well from watching Hemet's side. Second City, and it just never happened. I mean, everything worked out for the best for him. Everything worked out for the best. I mean, you try to get him in as a writer for Conan on the early days, and Conan met in Chicago, and Stephen was a bit nervous, and they just didn't connect. But everything worked out for the best possible way for so many people that did not get that show, including Stephen. You know, I wonder if Colbert had never done the Dana Carvey show. You know, I wonder if Colbert had never done the Dana Carvey show if Lauren may have hired him because there was a period where Lauren didn't want people who had done other like Mad TV or Dana Carvey. He kind of, there was

another rule that he sort of had and then kind of softened on as the years went by. But in the late 90s, he, I think it hurt Corell as well. So Colbert ended up, you know, because of his waiters who were nauseated by food sketch that's I think how at the Carvey show I think that's how he got hired for the Daily Show and then he brought Corell in so it worked

out it all worked out and thankfully the Daily show was this became this additional outlet in addition to Mad TV and SNL for sketch performers to be funny on a late night show

they were just all playing they were all playing news reporters, but they were at least getting to be funny and get their faces out there. I do want to point out after the Dana Carvey show, Stephen was hired to write at Saturday Night Live and was there for maybe four episodes, not a long time, but he was there. Yeah. And then everything, everything worked out. This is called Who Wrote It? These are five-star sketches, and I was wondering who wrote them. Superman's funeral when Sinbad hosted, this was November of 92, and Superman had died and Farley was the hull.

Yeah. You were in that. You were in that. Yeah, I played the Penguin. I think Mandel and Franken, I think, I think. But wait, before you, what were we talking about real quick before you got into Colbert? Let me see. Mike Myers?

You were asking me about Wayne's World. Yes. Yeah. All I wanted to say was that, yeah, Wayne's World had done modestly at dress rehearsal. and I remember, again, like I said, there were like six people in the room, and I felt good about this. I was like the youngest of the writers who had been promoted to producer, I advocated for Wayne's World to get on the show because, and I said, I didn't, it didn't make me laugh that much. I was probably already too old for it. I was like, I don't know, maybe I was 30. Maybe I was 29.

I felt too old for it at the time. But I said, I remember saying, we should put it on because we don't have enough stuff that speaks to teenagers. It did okay. The first one, I just remember doing okay. It did okay, but it was, it really was something that was missing from the show. Because I had a feel, like, I loved working on the show and I loved everyone in the cast. But everyone in the cast was like a, they all looked like they could have been cast. members on the office or something. They all looked like they were, you know, 30-year-old

middle-American kind of straight-laced people. There wasn't any feeling of danger at the show. There weren't any balusies and there weren't any Farleys and there weren't any Chris Rocks. All these people, they didn't have to be as talented as Phil Hartman as far as sketch comedy ability. That was something that was missing from the show at the time. Like Lovitz stood out the most as like a personality more than a quote unquote versatile sketch performer. But even Lovitz was like he looked like he was 40, you know. He was about, he was probably 31 by now and, you know, but he didn't, and he liked playing people from the 40s. He liked playing authority figures and old-timey kind of characters.

So he wasn't speaking to teenagers necessarily, and I just felt like Mike was making an effort to reach out to an audience that I felt didn't care about the show. I didn't feel like the show was particularly relevant in 1989, as good as I thought it was. The ratings spike because of Wayne's World, like you're talking 91, 92. It was amazing. Wayne's World, I mean, the ratings, this show got became much, more popular in the early 90s, and it was partly political humor that, you know, there was an

election in 1992. You know, the show benefited because Dana was killing it as not just Bush, but as Ross Perrault. So politically, we were hitting another stride, but also the injecting Mike and then Adam and Chris Farley, those three especially, but then Spaden Schneider and Chris Rock it was all helping it was all making the show feel and look younger and dangerous a little bit too with some of the stuff that they were pushing and dangerous yeah well i mean with rock and sandler sandler was he wasn't really dangerous in a uh like risque way but he was dangerous in that he was trying comedy that the show wasn't doing he was he was deconstructing character work and uh and he was aggressively silly and he wasn't trying to be satirical.

No, and it spoke to young people. I remember when I went to the Super Bowl with Farley and went, we got to do the CBS Super Bowl pregame show with Pat O'Brien. And so we all went to Minnesota, and Farley's brothers came as well as did, you know, our girlfriends at the time. It was really fun. And I remember, I think it was maybe the first time I'd met

at least one of Farley's brothers, and I was saying, oh, my God, Chris has added so much to the show. He's so great. And they were like, no, no, the guy we love the most is Adam Sandler. And they were young guys, and they were saying this because they were talking about, like, crazy spoon and, you know, crazy spoonhead guy or whatever Adam's Halloween costumes. Like, that kind of humor was so aggressively childish. but smart at the same time, and it just hit a nerve with a younger audience, just the way it did with the younger writers in the room. We would giggle nonstop in the middle of this table read, and people would look at us like

we were nuts, you know, me, Conan, Greg, Odenkirk, Adam would be reading these shaggy dog kind of update pieces that were just so aggressively absurd and stupid, but brilliant. and we could not stop laughing and people were like, have you invested money in this guy? What's going on? Yeah, some of the older people from the original cast. I'm only saying this because they said it publicly.

Chevy Chase said when he saw Adam, he's like, you should fire this guy. And Franken, I know sensibility, just the generation thing was not maybe necessarily a fan of Sandler. He came around, though. He came around. I remember like two years later, he said, you're brilliant.

And I remember feeling so great that Adam had broken through at that point, not just to kids, but to everybody. Who wrote the Desert Island sketch with Paul Simon and Victoria Jackson? Do you remember where it's like they give each other gifts and victories are all these like elaborate things? Great sketch. It feels like Andy Breckman or Jack Handy. I thought it was George Meyer, but I wasn't sure. What's the name of the sketch? Paul Simon, was this the Paul Simon and who? Robin Williams.

Victoria. No, is Victoria Jackson on an island? No, but was it when they were on the same show together, Robin Williams and Paul Simon? Oh, I don't think so. It could. It could have been. It could have been. Yeah, maybe it's Jack Handy.

I wasn't sure off the top of your head. Definitely a five-star sketch. It's one of those where I'm trying to look it up. I have a database here. So I'm trying to look it up for you. Paul Simon has all these. You would think you're on a desert island. He gives her these simple, like a sea.

shell and she puts together this MacGyver type over the top stuff but yeah it was played so well it was wonderful wait castaways was that maybe it was called castaways hold on I'm looking for it I think it was Jack Andy Jack Andy Rob oh my goodness it says

on the database who wrote it yeah that's why I'm looking it up oh my gosh I have to get this thing I mean I have so many sketches like that did Mike Myers write that Robert Robert Wagner piece where they're in the restaurant and he's like this suave guy no that was Conan. No, that was definitely Conan's

idea. Oh, that was Conan? Yeah, where he can't eat he eats like a pig. I'm pretty sure it was Conan and Greg. These are things I've always, I mean, you wrote the Matthew Modine cold open with the whole drill search and Bill Hardman giving. Yeah, Odden Kirk helped me with that. That was, yeah, I mean, a full metal jacket was

one of my favorite movies. I do want to mention the French class sketch that you wrote, Lauren did not initially like the ending of this sketch. Is that correct? That is correct. And what did he What were his notes? He just didn't want him to go to Paris and get the kid kicked out of them.

It was just a... It worked. It did okay. It did fine. It was one of those where we pushed for it. The sketch could have had just a blow-off ending in the room. It was a very writerly... It was funny.

No, it was funny. It was just... It wasn't necessary. Okay, so I'm looking at the Wagner sketch, and it's the four of us, but I'm positive. It was Conan's idea. His name is first. We always put whoever has... have the operative comedy idea first. So it says Conan, Daniels, Odenkirk, Smidey.

I wish people could see some of these sketches that I don't think are online like chapstick, which is one of my favorite sketches. And you wrote that. Ooh, chapstick, yeah. And that is, I don't believe because the music, because there are these sketches people. I don't remember there was music in that sketch. Well, there's sort of sketches that you have like the fifth beetle with Phil Harkin playing the tuba, and they're playing Beatles music. And it's like, this is never going to get. And the role. Stone. I'm pretty sure that was a Conan and Greg idea that we all helped on. Oh, man, that was so funny. Bill Hartman's like 20 years older than all the other Beatles

were seated. Was that, was he Albert Goldman? Was he playing Albert Goldman? He might have been. I forget what it was, but it just made me laugh so hard, but there's these things that you will never see most likely unless they clear them. But chapstick was. Oh, lip balm is what in the name of the sketch. Oh, it is just called lip balm, yeah. It was called lip balm. And it's basically just everyone wants to use this. It's like, oh, can I use this? And it just progressively. I feel like Jack Handy helped me with that, but I'm looking, no, Conan, it was, uh, it was definitely my idea, but Conan's listed first. That's interesting. I don't know. Anyway, it was, um, I remember having that idea. And then it says Conan and Greg

wrote it with me. I wanted to talk Jack Handy. Now, he's just, when people talk about And I, it's always the same thing, you know, tunes is the fuck, frozen kid, man lawyer. I mean, happy fumble, but there's so much other stuff. These are just my top three would be Johnny Canal, which is John Malkovich, coach Dobbs with Randy Quidd, which never even got on SNL, but coach Dobbs went on like the best of tunesis, which the baseball, it's like, it's not in studio. I don't know if you ever saw it, but he's a baseball coach and it keeps the ball, keeps fouling and hitting him.

He's in the ambulance being taken and it goes through the class and it keeps hitting. him. And then I was going to say the other one was Green Hilly, which he did with Christine Zander. Oh, Green Hilly. Well, that was a big hit. Yeah, that was him and Christine Zander. I'm just saying that there's so many other sketches that he wrote, like, the Whitmaster, I think, was his that just made me laugh. So much that never get talked about. Sure. What are some of your favorites that you, that are not famous, that just made you laugh? Well, I have to admit that I was obsessed with Toon Sis. Did I talk about this on the last show? No. I mean, Tootis was a great, great. Peace. I was obsessed with particularly the part, the opening credits, where they use the live cat and they have the two arms operating the steering wheel. I mean, I'd never seen that done before. And I was so amused by it that I would literally run up to 17 where the offices were and videotape the pre-taped.

where they would be trying to do this. Whenever there was a pre-tape where they were using the real cat and manipulating it and the cat just sitting around has no idea he's in a comedy bit. To me, this was the funniest thing in the whole world.

And obviously, a huge influence on comedy that I did later, whether it was triumph, humping a live animal, or, you know, TV Fun House where Dino and I had a dog puppet giving birth to puppies

and having them come out of a hole between the cat or a cat and then little kittens coming out one at a time and just the idea that the kittens are nothing made me laugh harder for a while than the idea of using animals in ways where they don't have to do anything but they're in a ridiculous comedy bit and they have no idea.

Originally for Conan, I heard it was either Conan or you so that you guys were at least considering a petting zoo backstage? I don't know if that was just like for a second that you consider that or that was maybe just an offhand joke. I think Dave Reynolds from the original writing staff, I think he had some, I think that was a bit that we talked about doing where we have a petting zoo for kids. I don't remember anything beyond that, though. Did Handy write the hot wing, the chicken wing restaurant?

I think that was Rob Schneider. That sketch died on the air and I always wanted to know. how it was Christian Slater hosted and it just died. And I always was wondering with sketches like that, they must have just killed a dress to get the number one spot. I mean, they must have killed the table. Oh, really? It was it was the number one spot.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that was a really good episode, dysfunctional family fuse. Didn't he host more than once? He did, but the second time he hosted was when the year after you left and they did another, the second motivational speaker and they did that Pearl Jam type band. Oh, wait.

So the first time is. with the Hot Wings was the first time he hosted? Yeah, he only hosted twice. Okay, I thought it was the second time he hosted, but let me look it up. Ron's Wings and Things. This is so strange to be doing this live, but what the hell? Writers, Rob Schneider, David Spade, Jim Downey. That sounds right.

Wow. Yeah, it just, and that would happen back then, which was amazing. And then even to get past update and have the sketches work with hard sometimes. That's why I thought it was amazing motivational speaker that they didn't put until after update. And it still, I mean, it killed, it would have killed any time. But normally, it's like back then, if you got after update, the audience sometimes wasn't even with the show. Wait, are you sure the wing sketch even made the show? 100%.

And then it had a Chiron at the end with saying like, had exploded and all this stuff. This is really strange. I'm looking it up. It's listed as being in the rerun. but not on the air show. Maybe it wasn't in the air, but I definitely sold a sketch. And it just,

the show was really funny, bad actors for them or, or young actors for them. Then they did, um, they did that, that werewolf thing, which is so funny with Christian Slate,

I'm turning it into a werewolf. And then he goes off camera and it's like, you can see that he's like kind of changing and it's really bad production values. And so, okay. It's a really, really funny show. He was going through around 8-H into the control room because the whole

Braves thing. it was like the audience was told beforehand to do the audience, like the Braves Chopin and the World Series. Oh, right. Well, that was the whole, John McLaughlin was in the Halloween cold opening. McLaughlin grew up, yeah, they did the walk on. Yes, and I remember, it was during the World Series,

and I remember arguing with McLaughlin about backstage about, can you imagine how absurd it is that they wanted to change the name of all these teams? like he he found it ridiculous to change the name of the Cleveland Indians or something like that. John McLaughlin. Yeah, the first sketch with John Goodman, oh, my goodness.

And the first time I was ever at the show, Mary Stewart Masterson hosted and they do is when Carvey says something about how do you start the show. And it's like live from New York at Saturday night. And the band starts playing and it's like, oh, right. And it's like, no, no, no. And show, show, show, here we go. Yeah, it was such a funny thing. And I know one of our listeners, Farad Mohammed, thought that that was actually the SNL band,

like they messed up and they heard Saturday Night Live and they started playing, which was the illusion. I mean, it really seemed like it was a mess up. That was, I couldn't believe. That gave me such joy that he, that we got to have him say, show, show, show, here we go. That was, I think, maybe the only time other than like live from, that's the Eddie Murphy show where they maybe,

open the show without a lie from New York. Sandler's second sketch, I believe it was a second. We're going to December of 1990. You wrote that Sopra sketch and you put Sandler at Now, is it true that you went to your father and asked him advice

about, first of all, can you set up the sketch and what did you ask your father? Why did you feel like you needed to go to him for advice? Sabra prices, no, the Sabra Shopper Shopping Network was the first one I did. I was, you know, it was not kind in terms of, you know, it was about a stereotype. It was taking an ethnicity and depicting a stereotype that was not necessarily associated

with the most positive stereotypes that you, you know, I mean, it's basically a couple of guys who work in an electronic store ripping off customers and or negotiating, you know, or haggling with them, which, you know, there's that expression, you know, Jew it down. So obviously these things are associated with negative Jewish stereotypes. But at the same time, these guys were all over time square when I was a kid. And he still existed in the late 80s, early 90s. And Tom Hanks was the one who initially came to me and wanted to do an Israeli electronic store guy he i believe tom hanks came up with the expression sony guts but he didn't have a real sketch in his mind he just had that and then i came up with oh this will be really funny if we do a

home shopping network and the guys are haggling on home shopping network and the chauffeurs one showfar for you he presses a button and it's like a shofar comes up yeah because they had because they had sound effects back then on home shopping way it was really cheesy yeah but for all these reasons i was like i was reticent and i talked to my dad about it and he said it's okay these because people exist and you know in my mind i felt like well if i don't make fun of a certain stereotype within my own culture then i have no right to do it about any other culture i felt like i was almost obligated to do it when I put it in those terms. And he understood. And I think, you know, it's funny you mentioned the show far because that's the one thing that, that I was a little iffy on

myself. Like, is that really disrespectful? And I can't remember how that landed with me and my dad. But I clearly, I went with it. It did well. That show was so much fun. That was the five-timers Club, and that was Mr. Short-Term Memory. Five-timers Club, that was the first one, you know, that was my idea. Yeah, no, it was Mr. Short-Term Memory, the game show, they did, they... Oh, that was the game show. Yeah, that's a very, wow, what a week. Then they did Sabra.

They did the Dean Martin, Hank's Dean Martin. Yes, which he showed last Christmas, when they, when the show got, you know, there was supposed to be a Christmas episode, and then there was another COVID-out break or something and and they ended up just having like a couple of pre-taped sketches and then Paul Rudd and Tina and Tom oh yeah I remember this now yeah they just introduced each one introduced one of their favorite sketches and all three of them chose something I wrote which was crazy what were the others oh the Steve was it the Steve Martin wishes thing or like if I had Paul Rudd chose that the Martin's holiday wish Tom Hanks chose now this was not

my idea. It was, but I worked on the Carl Sagan global warming Christmas special where he played Dean Martin. I believe that was Greg Daniel's idea, but we all worked on it. And then the third one was Christmas time for the Jews, which Tina chose. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was so much funny. You got Darlene Love. I mean, it was a really, really funny piece. So in the fall of- Wait, we were talking about, right before that, we were talking about, was it Christian Slater or We were. We were talking about the Christian Slater show. That was a Bonnie, Bonnie Raid, I believe, was the musical guest. And that was the fall of, um, 91, I believe. Oh, that had one of my favorite stupid things that I can't believe it got on. It was called Nickade. It was a serious, a very complicated, uh, it was a lung brush. It was a lung brush. It was a lung brush. That was Tom Davis. Completely forgotten sketch. Okay. People who want to imitate Jack Nicholson. Oh, Yeah, it was 12 to 1. It was like the last sketch on the show. Don't want the burden of having

to put their hand on their fore. Yeah, Jackie. It's put on this device and it blows their hair back so that their hands are free to do a fully, a Jack Nicholson impression, unencumbered by any limitations of hand gestures. Really stupid kind of Tim and Eric kind of idea. It was really fun. That was the last sketch, I remember, before good and nice. But can I just say one more thing about the first five-timers club. Oh, please. The first five-timers club was, it was born out of an impression that Tom Hanks did of Lauren Michaels.

Really? Do you know that? Yeah. No, I didn't. So Tom used to do this thing where Lauren would talk about the first time you're on the show, you're all nervous and thinking, oh, my God, how am I going to be? And what's, you know, and you're just overwhelmed. I can't believe all of this is happening around me and how it works.

second time you're on the show you're like can I be as good as I was the first time oh no it's going to be bad you get freaked out and maybe it isn't quite as good a lot of times it's never as good because it doesn't live up to the first one in your mind the third time you're on the show you're like okay I've done it twice

and it just goes on and on as if like it's the same thing for every single person which was so funny and that was the inspiration because he was coming on for the fifth time And I guess, like, again, me and Conan especially would just, we always love to laugh about the kind of tension that the show had within itself, whether it was going to be funny or cool, you know, because Conan and I were nerds and we always loved when the show felt unpretentious and just funny. You know, that's something we liked about shows that were inherently sillier like SCTV and Monty Python.

Saturday Night Live, we always laughed at the beauty shots at the beginning of the show in the montage and, you know, the aggressively hip New York at night feel to the show. And the after party, you know. That sketch was that based on the after party where Carve's the... It was just based on the whole... you know, the duality of the show where like, we're trying to do like really silly comedy. And at the same time, the show really wants to be cool and feel like hip and exclusive. And that's where this idea of the five timers club came. It was kind of parodying that side of Lorne Michaels in our heads. Steve Martin came up with a handshake, that idea. That was Steve's beat. I think we had the

idea of the handshake. And then I think I rode recently somewhere that, Steve definitely came up with your great. No, you're great or whatever. That was definitely his thing. Yeah. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcasts, please rate it and leave a review.

Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night TV news. And you can find my podcast at late-nighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you. next Tuesday. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be the

I'm going to I'm a lot of I'm going to I'm going I'm I'm going to be able to be. Thank you.