Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - T. Sean Shannon

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

T. Sean Shannon discusses his 8 years writing for Saturday Night Live, Norm Macdonald, & writing for Leno's Tonight Show.

Hi, I am Mark Malkup and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by late-nighter.com. Today's guest is comedy writer's stand-up, T-Shan Shannon. We discuss his eight years writing for Saturday Night Live and much more. Now, it's time to go inside late night. T-Shon Shannon, thanks for talking with us. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I love the fact that there's a bear visible behind you.

There is a bear up there. I'm obsessed with bears, as you probably know already. I absolutely do know if there was a bear suit during your tenure when you were at the show from 98 to 2006, it probably was you. But Bear City was so funny. Rick Ludwin, who I knew was a vice president of Light Night and I would have these long launches and we would talk about SNL and Carson and everything. And we talked about Bear City, and we were just laughing so hard.

Yay. Well, you know, I was, I used, I lived in L.A. when I worked at Saturday Night Live, and I would fly back and forth on our weeks off. And dude, this is a million years ago where they showed movies on a flight

and you had to buy your headphones or whatever. And I never, I never did that. And I remember watching, well what I saw is that you didn't need words at all and I saw it was the Johnny Depp film where he was Hans Christian Anderson and didn't have the headphones

followed the entire movie wasn't an action movie followed the movie without even hearing one word of dialogue oh he's breaking up with that girl oh, this is the moment. And that's where it came Bear City where I don't think you need words, you know, music.

And I think just general grunts, you know what's going on. So that's how it all kind of started. Can you explain it for people that don't know? Okay, so Bear City is a city where it's nothing but bears, but it's all people in bear costumes. And then they go through life and like the one as the guy goes to the convenience store to buy cigarettes and there's a panda working there and he's a brown bear and he's trying to tell him what cigarettes to buy and the panda doesn't know

what cigarettes. So it's just the miscommunication. So that's all it is. It's just there's no dialogue. There's a narrator, but doesn't really tell you everything that's going on. It's just basically it's silent movies or whatever. I love the fact that Harper Steel was doing go lords and you were doing Bear City because a lot of that stuff really wasn't getting in. And I mean, Smigel, Robert had the cartoons go in and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever anything like that got on, it was really exciting. Now, at the Ashley Simpson dress rehearsal, when she had that whole thing with the lips.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you have, because you got two on the air that night because of the lip syncing. Did you have two that were at dress rehearsal? Were you only supposed to have one and they added one? Well, you know, I had, um, so I made 12. of them. And I only think eight aired maybe, maybe 10. And I made those on my own. That's how those got made. The summer we had off, I don't remember what summer it was. I just, I wanted to do this. And I made them in L.A. And I paid for them and everything. And I brought them back. And they liked

them. And Tina Faye was super cool about saying she liked them, which doesn't hurt. So they kind of, they were on and they didn't know where to put them and they were always there for backup and so yeah no they ended up Aaron because they needed to fill time because they cut away after she was caught lip syncing yes that episode and just Leslie Stahl happened to be there for 60 minutes it was the timing was just amazing so you know you start doing stand up in 1983 you start writing comedy professionally in 91. And you always wanted to write for Saturday Night Live. And yeah, definitely. That was the ultimate goal. You get hired in 98. It's the 24th season. But going back a few years, Fred Wolf helped at least get your packet in front of the writers in

Adam McCain. Fred Wolf is amazing. He was on the podcast actually just recently. He's the best. Fred got you tickets to see the show during a time when it was, the show was having some trouble. And this was not a strong show, which, and it was not Paul Riser's fault, but it's Paul Riser Annie Lennox. Wow. How do you know I went to that show? Oh, I do research. I did try to do as much research. Wow. So this is the first time that you're in 8-H. You're excited to be there. I want to write on the show. But I have to say, I mean, those sketches, if you were, I don't know how it played at dress. I'm guessing you were at the air show. Oh, so I was at dress. Oh, were you? How did it play? Because on air,

everything died almost everything died you know what the most stunning thing i remember uh was what got cut and what got what was still in that was the most amazing thing to me because i was like hold on how did that sketch make it and then years later looking back and honestly i can't tell you what the sketch is i think it was one about alien and i had an alien baby or it's still that got it and Alien mad about you, it was like a hybrid? No, it got in. Yeah, and it was, I thought it was not the funniest sketch. A couple funny sketches got cut.

But when I watched that, I was like, ah, that didn't work. I see what they were going for, but that didn't really work. And I don't know who wrote that now. I'm trashing some poor guys. Just the vibe from the cold open on, that year was really, really tough. They were not letting the standbys in. Like, they let 60 in usually for Dress and Live now. I mean, to guarantee that you're going to get laughs from the real fans,

it was heavily VIPed back then. It was just the writers and the actors just were not really unified. And there were a couple really tough shows. And that was absolutely one of them. But just when you're there, was it one of those things like I still want to write for the show? Oh, yeah, no, definitely always. No, I mean, there were bad shows every year. you know every season there's a couple bad shows and i don't remember it being horrific i i remember

that all i remember from that no fred remember he got me tickets to that show yeah fred got you yeah no but he remembered that that was the show he got me i don't know if fred remembers i'm gonna ask him and actually i'm talking to him this week dude he's the best oh i agree he helped me so much because my first job writing was at comics only and i worked with him and he helped me me so much. He used to, so I lived in Santa Monica at the time, and that's where we wrote comics only. And then we taped it in Hollywood, but he lived in Hollywood and we would quit every day at 6 o'clock. And he was like, I'm just going to wait 45 minutes because the traffic is so bad. If I leave now, I'm going to get home the same time I will if I leave 45 minutes from

him. So I stayed behind every night and would just hang out and pick his brain because he was such a good stand-up. I remember from stand-up, when I moved out there, I went out there for the summer of 85 to do stand-up, and I remember seeing him and how, like, really made an impression of how funny he was on me. And so we became pals from that. And we became pals when I would sit there every night and just hang out with him while he was waiting for traffic to died out. Comics only, now that is Paul Prevenza, who really, really funny guy. Wasn't that one of the first shows are on comedy?

It wasn't even Comedy Central. Was it Ha? It was Ha and Comedy Channel combined. And that was one of the first shows once they combined. Because there was two, I don't know, there were two comedy channels at the beginning. And then they eventually formed into one. And that was one of the first shows.

And it also had, dude, he had some really great writers. This guy, John Ross, great standup from San Francisco. I had Mike Armstrong. Do you know Mike? Yeah, yeah, you know who he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Stephen Wright. He won the Oscar with Stephen Wright. Dennis Jennings. And he's an Emerson guy. Dude, so funny, so mature. And I learned so much from working that one gig. But no. So I also visited SNL before that when my buddy Warren Hutchison was writing there.

He was there. he started um he was 91 and he was there through the 92 93 season and he um i would love him on he definitely it was a really tough time because you had smigel you had jack handy you still had frankin and the turners dude i met handy that weekend i went to see warren g smith it was paul mccartney alec Baldwin that's the episode it was uh so i went during lunch break and hung out or i showed up around four saw them do the Farley McCartney sketch just blocking and then saw McCartney play that's not so bad and then he took me to dinner and I met G.E. Smith there who I love and he had played with Dylan and I loved Dylan and I asked him about Dylan but here's funny here's how

comedians are and he was smart to ask Warren I go hey can I go talk to you? he goes yeah and then i started walking he goes wait wait come here you're going to be nice right that's that's how crillions are such turns that it's a valid question i go no i love him but i also met jack handy there and i had i had written dude i'm such a comedy nerd in 85 when i was out there for the summer i wrote jack handy he was selling deep thoughts in the back of like a college magazine whatever colleges used to give away free magazines or whatever in deep thoughts so i sent him a letter i sent whatever the check was for a deep thoughts book and he sent back a letter typewritten which love typewriters and it was just uh you know i didn't get enough orders but uh thank you for your

good taste in comedy and dude that meant the world to me that was like yeah so i brought that letter and his book Deep Thoughts that have since been published to when I went to see Warren and I gave him the book I could go, hey, I was hoping to get this son here's my name you can see it on this envelope

and he was like, wow this is wow you kept this I was like hell yeah I kept it what are you talking about you're Jack Handy so and dude super cool that was my first experience loved it wanted to

uh right on s and l paul riser didn't faze me at all yes i still want it that's all i've yeah no i remember watching it with my older brothers i'm a kid but all my brothers friends from high school come over and watch chevy chase like the first year and i remember you know i'm in my pjs i'm a little kid but all his friends going nuts all his all these big football he played football and they They seemed like giants at the time because, what am I, eight, ten? Dude, it had such an impact of watching these guys pounding a table. And I remember one joke about it was the trans tennis player, Renee Richards. And she wrote a book playing tennis without balls.

Dude, I'm 10. Just the word balls. I'm laughing. I don't understand what they're talking about. But, ah, no ball. The original cast. So you're watching that. not getting it because I'm 10 my brother but knowing that this is something that that that there's a

crowd at my house there weren't crowds at my house on a Saturday night and they're watching the show and it means everything to them and my brother's my hero it worked on so many levels because you have Landshark and cone heads the broad visual comedy that's going to play the samurai and then they would sneak in or not sneak in but I'm sure some of the especially with the drug humor and stuff is going to go over for the most part, somebody's head that's that young that's not going to really get that. But my point is it worked on a lot of levels. So you're one of these people I really admire because it took you a while to get hired at SNL. Did you have to do four packets? Was it over four seasons that you? I think it was, uh, it was at least three. I know that. I don't know if it was four. In Living Color was two. I got that on two. No, I know. I mean, You were on Living Color. You did The Magic Hour. You definitely were, and you did Leno, which it's so strange to me to think about that

writing on one of the most famous, the number one late night show would put you in not the best opinion of your peers when you get hired at SNL, because you said in an interview that you get hired. And then when Adam McKay found out that you were a writer at Leno, he didn't say this right away, but he was a little skeptical just because. No, he came up, after the first commercial parody packets, he came up to me and went, hey, man, I got to be honest with you, I wasn't excited that you were coming from Leno. But, boy, I really liked your commercial.

I think I had two. And he liked them both and kind of, but I still had another hurdle. But it wasn't considered a good comedy show because it was, it wasn't Letterman, which was the comedy gold standard, especially if you're a comedy nerd. And it was, they didn't find their feet early, Leno, who I will say favorite stand-up up to that point. On Letterman, there was no one funnier than Jay Leno. Agreed.

Those 40 appearances or whatever he did. Oh, my God. You can go back and watch him today, solid. And then also off-the-cuff, possibly the funniest human I've ever met, Jay Leno. Oh, my God, so funny. Dude, he was so, he's so brilliant. So what are you doing hanging out with Rick Ludwood? I did a podcast about Johnny Carson for eight years called The Carson Podcast. So I was in front of a lot of just NBC people, people that went on Carson as guest. I'm on Bob Smith. Did you ever

he was a writer? He would not talk to me. He is legendary. And you know, you worked with Greg Fields, who was a former Carson writer. Dude, no. Yeah, Fields was the best. Yeah, I really wish I would have been able to talk to him before he passed away. I know that he, he was one of my mentors too. He, and he, I knew like Fred Wolfe told me about him before I had met him. But dude, another, oh, effortlessly funny that guy. Yeah, definitely both of their names have come up. But Bob Smith, people still at the, um, that have worked with him. I still hear people talk about how, uh, funny Smith was. So what was in your packet that you submit? Because they get hundreds of packets. What, as well? Yeah, yeah, McKay's reading.

these and I don't know I can tell you this I'm finishing it up when it's the home run derby with Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa so I'm watching that in the background and I forget what the first two sketches are but the third one is a topical political piece and I don't know what was going on then and I wish I did but I remember I had a couple I remember having like three really solid bits in it You know, I could track it down eventually if I cared to, but... It is one of those things. You do have an end with Fred God in front of Adam, but you still have to deliver, and you absolutely...

No, no, no, no, exactly. But I also had a guy... Another thing that helped me was there was a guy at NBC, one of the executives, Gary... Constadine. Constadine. He won't talk to me. That's okay. Very friendly, but declined politely.

He didn't really like me when I was at The Tonight Show. Why? Dude, I don't know. I'm a force of nature. Also, I like to be on air. My thing on there at The Tonight Show was they would just hire random actors, unknown actors, to do bits. And I'm like, well, I'm funnier than a random unknown actor if I write something. So I would put myself in stuff.

And so that was he was like, ah, you just want to be on air, which wasn't true. but was, I did want to be on air and I'm like, yeah, but you don't have anybody doing it. Like if you had people doing it, if you had Chris Elliott, yes, no, I won't be doing that. But you don't have Chris Elliott here. You have no one you hire random actors. So I think that was my reputation there a little. But when you brought in Fred Willard, because it was all you, was Gary like, Tishon, give me a hug. Dude, I cannot tell you how no one in an executive levels.

ever excited to see Fred Willard. And I don't know how that happens. I did a pilot for Comedy Central, and it was a sketch show, a sketch pilot show. I have Fred Willard, and I'm trying to get this other guy to be in it, this guy, Lou Wagner, brilliant actor. I'm in, like, Fred Willard's sketch group in L.A. And this other guy, Lou Wagner, genius actor, was in the original Planet of the Ape. So he's another older guy at this point.

I'm trying to get him in to play the boss of one of my sketches and the lady running comedy at Comedy Central goes, no, I go, why can't I have him? They go, we gave you Fred Willard. That cost me a favor to use Fred Willard. What world in comedy is that happening? Dude, it was the most insane thing I'd ever heard. And it's always like you hear, oh, executives are dumb or whatever. But when I heard that, I was like, you're kidding me. You can't be serious.

But so back to Gary. So when I went to S&O, so Gary told Tim Hurley, too, that, yeah, you don't want to hire. I don't like this guy. You won't like this guy. He just wants to be on air. And Tim Hurley told me, yeah, we didn't respect Gary's opinion about anything. So that kind of bumped you up another notch, too, that Gary didn't like you. I want to point out, Leno.

The last thing I have to end on this. Please, please. Gary did, after six months at Esedal, he goes, dude, I was wrong about you. You're really funny. So he was super cool, and I always, that was, I didn't think anyone, the way he didn't like me, I didn't think he would ever admit it, but he was very open. He goes, you know what, you fooled me. You are very funny.

So that, I will always love Gary for it. I like that, that he, yeah, that he obviously noticed talent wins out. No, no, it was super cool. Fred Willard, you brought in to Leno and they kept using him and then you were your friends with him. You didn't know him and suddenly you're vacationing in Europe with him. I've spent a little time with Fred Willard, the sweetest guy. It was such a nice man, him and his wife.

Yeah, Mary and me, so they have a sketch group and when I leave the Tonight Show, I joined the sketch group and that helped me at S&L because I would write a new sketch every week. And so when I would go back to S&L, after a summer, I've got 25 sketches, you know? Not that many. That's way too many. How many do I have? I have 12.

But it was, and they all didn't go there, but it kept the arm warm all summer. And I learned, and also him reading sketches makes them 10 times funnier. But also the other thing, he loved baseball. He was obsessed with baseball and comedy, which are the two things I'm obsessed with. You've been to every major league stadium. I do want to mention your work ethic, because you mentioned on the summers you're working on sketches. And you're the only writer I know of perhaps they're more of Saturday Night Live that would actually go into the office on Sundays to write. Yeah. Were you the only one? Yeah, most times. Most times I was the only guy there. Another guy who would be there was Hal Wilner, the music guy, who I love. Oh, yeah, who passed away a couple of years ago. He was very well respected. And yeah, people loved him over there. dude so i loved uh so we would i would hang out with how and how was one of the coolest he was a guy i i saw he was older than me but he had that same thing about digging all the things before him like will you burrow salvador dolly he had a letter from salvador dolly lou reed so we would just

talk about music how wilner he was the only guy up there but i just loved it because it was No one was there. And I love being alone. Even Mondays. How sad is that? I love being in a giant building alone. It's nice to have that also, I mean, it's just you can have totaled the building to yourself. And then also, even Mondays, a lot of the writers are not writing, but you would come in early before the host pitch.

Dude, it's always had something to have, you know. And even if it just turns out to be, you know, rubbish, yeah, man, I'm going to be a better writer if I write something, aren't I? So you go in for your meeting. You meet Adam McKay. It goes well. When do you meet Lorne Michael's? I don't meet him for like six weeks.

I'll tell you, I don't know if John Goodman's the host, or he's so we have an early tape of so it's the Monica Lewinsky stuff. So they're doing an interview on the Today Show. And I don't know if it's Linda Tripp. It must have been

Linda Tripp doing an interview. on the Today Show, and it's going to air Friday. So Thursday night, they let us look, watch the interview. So it's me and Steve Higgins, and John Goodman's going to play Linda Tripp. And so we watch it, and I don't know what episode, I'm sure you'll be able to track it down and tell me about Paul Reiser was in the crowd that night. Pretty much that's about right. So we call Lauren to tell him about what we saw. So it's me and Higgins on a phone.

and then it's Lauren he goes so he knows everything dude that guy says smart and funny too and he goes this is my first time talking to T Sean and I go pretty cool huh

let's see how it goes so that was the first time I ever talked to the guy and I don't know how many shows in it was but he had you know I mean he knew who I was what point did he tell

you and the new writers that you won't quote never be happy here oh no no that's the first day i'm there so he goes in there and uh he's given the first season of the speech what you know we're here and then um so he goes uh for all the new people here just know you will never be truly happy here if you like edgy stuff you want everything to be edgy if you like the political stuff you want more political stuff. If you like characters, do you think we should do more characters? We have many masters to serve, so you will never be truly happy here. I didn't understand it for like two years later, but it was very, it was, it made a lot of sense. It's interesting because I, there was an interview with you and you were talking about this. And I think at the time, this was absolutely

true. More topical material was getting in than ever before. Is that? And the over the top, uh, characters. You said that, you know, if Jack Handy would write a sketch about an alien or something like that, or you would in Lawrence, like, why the alien? And he would rather go with the topical, whereas now things have changed a lot that you still do topical. But back then, it just seemed like topical stuff was getting on. Some of it wasn't even worthy of getting on, but they would rather have topical stuff than having a Jack Handy weird sketch on. Am I wrong on that, would you say? Or is that fair? I don't, I don't think so. I think there's a, But there's a valid point for that to, I completely understand that idea.

And maybe it gets away from you every once in a while, that you're more interested, topical than funny. There's a zeitgeist. He used that word once. And no one said anything except me, and I went, I don't know what that means. He goes, it's a German word meaning in the air. But I think that's what it is. Like, I think you get more credit for being.

topical than you do for just being funny. That's what you said in an interview that you learn that you have to be topical. I will ask you this. I heard this from another writer a long time ago that when you were there, at least at some point, that for every premise sketch, there had to be written two character sketches. It was some ratio. I don't know that. I never picked up on that.

But you had, again, many masters to serve. Sherry doesn't have anything this week. Can we write her an update? Anna doesn't have anything this week. Tim Meadows doesn't have, you know. I think sometimes you, yeah, you, uh, Rachel, what is Rachel? We don't have Rachel on any sketch and she has this one character. She put, well, let's do that then.

So I don't know if it's, I don't know what the rule of two to one. I don't know that, but I do know that, yeah, you got to service the people that are there. You do and you have to write what's going to get in. And it's very different. And it depends on the time of the show and what's getting in the most. What stands out about Norm MacDonald coming in a host in October of 1999? Because he had been fired from the show. He shows up with Sam Simon.

He shows up with Andy Breckman. Fred Wolfe is sending in some sketches from Los Angeles and Robert Smigl's contributing. What stands out about that week? It is frowned upon a lot of times. It's not their favorite when a host bring people in. Andy Breckman said it was clear that they didn't feel welcome by some of the writers. What stands out? Do you think that that is a fair assessment? And what just stands out about that week?

Because it's definitely this infamous monologue and just him being there after he was fired. What stands out as Sunday I was hanging out after the show. And he came in to watch football on all channels because he had bets on every football game. That's one thing. After he hosted? After he hosted, he came back Sunday. You know what? I don't remember because, dude.

I'm like the old school. Any old guys come in, I'm happy. Sam Simon, I was excited to meet Breckman. So I hope they don't think I was rude to them. But no, yeah, it does get, you know, we're the writers and that you have writers. Yeah, I mean, there's a natural, you know, it's going to rub the wrong way, especially that there's more than one that you bring in a crew. I'm sure that bothered people.

And people have scored coming in doing that. Yeah, no, I never, but I do think there's a natural inclination if someone's coming in to do your job, not to, like I remember we went to, when I was at the Tonight Show, we went to Chicago to do a week of shows. And the union guys in Chicago wouldn't let our union guys from California do anything. And I remember those guys were kind of pissed off. They got a free trip to Chicago, but they were also, you can't touch a stool don't touch so that i mean that's just one completely different profession that those guys weren't happy about being told we've got this and i don't think anybody ever they it wasn't as blatant as the chicago union guys were but i do think there is that you know and especially egos i think people are going to be i don't know i think if you bring writers in regardless if they score if they're good if they can fit in i think that's beautiful but But comedians, for the most part, can't fit in.

They're not very good at getting along with people. I think you're absolutely right about when you go in as one of those writers. You have to fit in. And I know that you were buddies, and I knew him as well, Tom Davis, when he would come in. And he would always, Steve Hagan said in the James Andrew Miller, Tom Shale's book, he'd always say you guys are doing a great job, whereas some of the guest writers would come in. And you could just tell their attitude was a little bit like, that it's better when I was a writer. Yeah, no, you know what you guys are doing wrong.

Yeah, this is the reason why people don't like Saturday Night Live anymore. You would hear stuff like that every once in a while. Really? They would actually say that to the current writers? They would be, yeah, no, it would be like not writers so much, but I remember like friends or hangar-ons or publicists. Everyone has an opinion on that show, and it's always like it was funnier five years. It's like a cycle.

It was funnier when it was your ear. era, whatever era you were. It seems like a cycle. Getting back to Norm McDonald, he did a controversial, he did a very controversial at the time monologue. Not controversial, I would say, to the viewing public, but he said, I haven't gotten any funnier. The shows just gotten really, really bad.

Lauren did not want him to do it. There were people that were booing him off to the side that were not the studio audience. Norm said that they were writers. Do you have any insight on the booing and writers? not, I'm not saying you, that were upset that Norm was trashed in the show. Yeah, I didn't boo. I didn't dig it, though. I didn't like hearing the show. You know what? But you have to also factor in that this guy's probably not in the best opinion of this show that fired him, you know, when he was one of the funniest things on the show. So, I mean, I understand completely where he's come. I didn't like to hear.

that, you know, I mean, there was another one once where it was Horatio was a political character cold open and he was half Democrat half Republican and I think it ended and it was a statement of how bad political things are and it ended with

and then now the cry of the mediocre live from New York and I remember hearing that going I don't want to hear that. Hey, yeah, that fella. I don't know. You know, I didn't dig that more than Norm doing it. That's interesting. I mean, it is. I mean, your name's in the credits. Do you remember that cold open? What's up? You remember everything. Do you remember that cold open? I remember some things. I don't want to. There's there's certain people like Arthur Meyer who wrote for Fallon who knows every date. He knows the host, the music. I'm good, but I'm not Arthur Meyer. And there's one other gentleman named Ian who's really good. I, I'm not in their league, but I'm good. I feel like I'm good at what I do. And I have been made fun of by SNL writers and cast members for my overly. No, I think it's cool.

I have to ask you, I don't know if you've ever talked about this publicly, but people have mentioned it, which is, you were a hero to so many people on the 17th floor, because when Chris Parnell was let go, he comes back. And you, this was, I would think this would be a really brave thing that you write this Benny Hanna sketch, which is skewering Lorne and the Michaels and the producers for getting rid of him. And I would think politically, this would not be a great move to really to do this. What happened? Like, tell me the whole thing about... At first, I'm a force of nature. Which is always good. You know what? I will attribute this

partly to 9-11, blaming the terrorists. That's what I'm doing. dude i think it just it was uh you know i think that was a large factor of it it's just how shocked i was and how i mean this is just from the psychological angle of it but i do think i do i think i do take up for people me and parnell were butts i mean we were friendly but it wasn't like me and him hung out every night or we went drinking or ever go to the movies together But, dude, he was so solid. He was Phil Hartman solid. And they let him go and no one took up for him.

And it was all, dude, it was furious. I had no power, but I was furious. I'm like, how can you not, do you didn't, you didn't mention? And people had their own people to protect. This is my friend from Second City. So I'm making sure they're protected. or whatever, this is my friend from somewhere else, no one stood up, you know, stood up for him.

Will Ferrell, who's one of the greatest human beings I've ever met, and surprise, surprise, Chris Catan. Groundlands together? Dude, yeah, but also, dude, didn't see Catan doing that, and he did it, and I did unbelievable respect for Chris Catan after that. Always liked him, but boy, didn't think he of everybody, at Saturday, I have him and Will Ferrell, are the only ones who kind of stuck up for him.

I think it's kind of bullshit. You know, that guy was solid. He had no reason to get rid of that guy. Dude, no one says a word, but that's kind of that place you're worried about, you know. So they bring him back, and then is it the first table read that you write the sketch that you know was nothing?

No, no, no, no, no. He had left. It's Reese Witherspoon, first show of the year. I remember that premiere, yeah And so I write this thing about how they fired this guy at Benihana's And it was just an indictment of everybody who didn't take up for him And it's Will and Catan have gone to Benihana's to eat And they go, where's Chris?

He doesn't work anymore. Why not? That's Benihana's because that's all anyone said to me, that's S&L. And I go, well, did you say something? No. well really you know he's great though right do you think he's great oh yeah he's glue he's nails dude phil hartman-esque you need nails and glue to keep stuff together he and also like phil hartman super funny on his own but to help get sketches through oh solid and no one took up

for him and it was just kind of and i was all onry because i'm you know nine 11. I'm not in a good mood. Boy, that shift at comedy. Dude, I was in such a zone too. Oh, God, my commercial parodies were so good that year. And then 9-11. And then it's like, God, none of this is funny anymore. Nothing's funny.

And you have to, and it just shattered the world. I was still mad about that. And I think that's why I acted out like it. It was very foolish to do what I did. How did it do with the table? Oh, not a laugh. Oh, it was just, yeah, no, oh, died hard. And I'm in a little back little hallway where no one can see me.

And people are looking around. And everybody knows what this is about. I think most people do. It was someone like, I remember right when I got there, I'm walking down a hallway. And Mike Scher comes out of a, like it's a T hallway or whatever. And I'm coming this way. Mike Scher's walking up to someone else. and he goes, oh my God, did you read T-Shod's sketch?

It's in the, oh, hey, hey, T-Shah, what's going on, man? And then disappeared. And it was like... I'm surprised that one of the producers didn't pull it out. Dude, that's the great thing about that place. They put sketches in, man. So did this have any repercussions about you getting sketches in for a while, or did it affect you at all? It had repercussions, but I do think part of it is,

again blame the terrorist i do think it was just such a different uh you know atmosphere was it just harder to get stuff on were those the repercussions no no not really and i heard loren didn't even get it and then someone goes i think it was about parnell he just went oh and then just blew it off but dude always respect it Lauren always and then that's the other thing that bothered me was when people would talk shit about him. You know, first of all, the humble brag, or whatever you call it, of, yeah, I got to go to dinner with Lauren tonight. Really?

Really? You're all put out because you have to go to dinner with Lauren. Get the F out of here. There were writers and writers that, I mean, not writers, but there were performers that would say that, really? What are writers who would say that to where it was just like, get the F out of here? Don't tell me that's not the coolest thing ever that that guy invited you to dinner. Dude, that guy's so brilliant.

The one thing people don't, you talk about, dude, super funny. That guy to me, dude, he was funny and smart, man. So that kind of bugged me too when people, oh, he's crazy whitehead. And then I'm like going, okay, if he's crazy whitehead, why don't you stand up to it? Why don't you mention go, hey, you know what? I really think we could use Parnell here. I don't I think you should reconsider that and no one did no one would I'm going to mention this only because you brought it up which is back then at that point that was a nickname for some of the writers were that was what they called Lauren behind his back correct yeah yeah I never did I thought it was a thing and also I was like who the F are you you you're some half okay writer where do you get off like where's where's the again my heroes people older than me really respect Tom Davis, man, couldn't get enough of when he came by any of those guys.

And then people would say that. Then they let Parnell get fired. So, yeah, I don't dig. I didn't dig that whole scene of. I thought it was kind of rubbish, you know? I was going to ask, because you wrote so much with the cold opens. You contributed a lot. I talked to Harper Steele.

And Harper was saying that they wrote some of the sketches as well with the cold open. I always thought that the cold open real estate was Jim Downey, and to get that cold open slot was, I mean, really hard to do. How were you able to do? A lot of it. A lot of it was written Thursday or Friday night. But wasn't it all Downey for the cold opens? Didn't he have that? Not always, because when I show up, it's right after Downey and Norm have left. Was Downey there that year? Downey would send sketches in. Downey was actually with phone, he would do it over the phone, he wouldn't even email it, he would just dictate it over the phone. But yeah, because he got, he was let go with Norm, or he left, yeah, he got let go by the by Allmeyer and then he was coming back to do some cold open. So what stands out? What is your favorite cold open that you contributed to or you wrote one or two that stand out?

I wrote one. Dude, this was a solid one. This was one where I was like, this is a great sketch, but it was. when they were trying to impeach Clinton, I think Livingston was the Speaker of the House, got fired, and then another guy, Newt Gingrich, got fired. They both lost their job over headhunting for Clinton. And so it was them sitting at a bar,

both those guys going, what the hell happened? We have a dress with his semen on it. He's still president. I got fired. what that and it was just them going over all the evidence they had and they just played it so wrong and you know everybody the moral high ground then it was like hey what about your girlfriend i resign and it was all that stuff and so that was my favorite and i don't remember

could it have been the bill paxton show with musical guests the 10,000 mania Catherine O'Hara, 10,000 Maniacs from 1992, but who's, who, no, who. Okay, here's one for you. Do you remember who was the host of the Bare Neckett Ladies Show? Oh my goodness. I, okay, let me think. They only did one song. They were only, they got a song cut.

It was, they were shaving one week to play second. Oh. They were all excited. Can you believe that happened to a bunch of people that you're, I'm trying to think, let me think, bare naked ladies tell me, I'm, I'm, I can't. believe I'm failing. I have no idea. I was just going to tell you that story is that they held out. They have one week. We'll close with that one. We got cut for time, guys. Sorry. It was really strange because 90. I think Cheryl Crow got a song cut for time. Will Farrell's first year. This was Kekner and all

those people were coming out. They did that to Joan Osborne. They did it to Everclear. They did it to a few bands where they did two show two with dress songs and they were told you're only getting one in it would only tell them after the model after update see you know about the meeting after update sure that where what are we doing the rest of the show this we have to lose this we have to lose that and you could cut music back then because it wasn't sponsored by bud wiser it didn't help also i think a big thing is the ratings people would turn away when music came on They were dipping, and it's strange because in 95, 96, when they were doing it, Don Allmeyer had a lot of control. Lauren was building back up, getting power back from the network, which he ended up doing, but they dictated some of the stuff that season where they were getting cut the music.

But when you were there that first season, it's like Elliott Smith, Eagle Eye Cherry, Bear Naked Ladies, even Ricky Martin, I believe only did one song. And I think that after that, it didn't really happen. Well, I think because they got Budweiser to sponsor it or something, I think it was all ratings driven. It was. No, 100%. Like they looked at it and they go, well, people don't stick around. People turn away.

Like, they would do that. And they did that at Leno, too, at the time, where they would go minute by minute. And you would go, we used to do a couple bits that I love that was just found footage. And one was just people arriving at Universal Studios coming off a escalation. later than walking down this carpet we would do a fake red carpet and you would go oh this guy looks like whoever uh Jonah hill and it's some chubby kid walking or whatever and another piece we do was where we'd film people like we would go to a baseball stadium and film people and there's and it would be what were they thinking and they would go through at NBC and they would go okay

we lose viewers when you do these bits and so we would not we don't want to do these bits these are the bits dude it worked leno stayed number one for a very long time and they were really good at analysis it affected the stand-up comedians that was one of the reasons that they were not doing them anymore the minutes to minutes and that's yeah they always blamed it on leno yeah they always blamed it on leno oh he doesn't like they did it i mean their goal and they they achieved it wildly as they were number one the entire almost the entire time. Dave was in the beginning

when he was... Thank you to Tishan Shannon. We are going to continue our conversation next week. Thank you for listening. Be sure to check out late-nighter.com. We'll see you next Tuesday. Thank you. I'm going to be.

I'm going to be. I'm going to I'm going to I'm and the and the

I'm and I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. You're going to be able to be. Thank you.