Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff - Tom Schiller

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Tom Schiller discusses writing for Saturday Night Live for 11 years, Schiller’s Reel shorts with Gilda Radner, John Belushi, and Chris Farley, first meeting Lorne Michaels, and his film Nothing Lasts Forever.  

Hi, I am Mark Malkoff and welcome to Inside Late Night, presented by late-nighter.com. Today's guest is Tom Schiller, filmmaker, comedian, and an original writer on Saturday Night Live. Now it's time to go inside late night. Tom Schiller, thanks for talking with us. My pleasure. My great pleasure, Mark. It's been a while. You know, I was trying to think the last time I saw you. I mean, I had a day job at the Colbert report, and I remember Stephen Colbert being so excited that I mentioned that you were there and I knew you and he wanted to meet you and you came back. And then Mike and Erica's wedding, you officiated. I was just trying to think it's been a while, but it's just so good to hear your voice. Well, I thank you. It was good to see you there too. Yeah, he was definitely one of those people. And I'm sure so many people that just grew up of such an influence, the 70s of SNL and beyond and everything you,

done. It was fascinating for me just to take this deep dive because I think that some people know, you know, early on, of course, your dad is this famous comedy writer, TV writer. And you essentially were this kid, you were like five or six on the set of I Love Lucy. You were there for the grape stomping show, right? Yes. I was actually there. And I, you know, the writers sat in these bleachers away at the top. And the first thing is, when Desi came out and did the warm-up, he introduced the writers. And my dad said, when he introduces me, you stand up. So I stood up, this 10-year-old kid, and they all thought I was Bob Schiller. But anyway, I saw the grape stomping, and it was fantastic. I couldn't believe it. And so that after

the show had ended and all the audience left and everything, I asked to go down to the set and have my father take me down and he took me down there and I actually climbed up and looked into the vat that had the grapes to make sure they were really grapes and they really were. I couldn't believe it. She really stomped in real grapes. Such an impressionable thing. You're a kid, you're six years old and at the same time, I think it was a year before, your mother screened the red balloon for you on your fifth birthday. This is true, correct? Like, you were being just exposed. I mean, not only like the mainstream, but that's true, right, five years old? That's right. There was a screening room on Sunset Boulevard. And in the 50s, it was

sort of fashionable to have little screenings for the kids whose birthday it was. And I got to see the red balloon. And I think that's the first film that made me want to be a director, or also made me want to be French, or also wanted me to be in that movie. It's unbelievable. growing up in L.A., just all these experiences, you know, you see, you would think a lot of 10-year-olds, 11-year-olds, or maybe, you know, playing baseball or maybe, you know, trading baseball cards or something. But you're 11 years old, and you're at the UCLA Film School's campus, and you're just looking for film footage and trash bins, and you're finding these gems. That's right. I used to go dive into the dumpsters of the UCLA Film School and find

outtakes of their student projects. And we had a projector at home. So I spliced them together and put soundtracks on them and invited my friends to watch these films. But you're right, it was weird growing up in Westwood because all of my playmates, all my friends' fathers, I used to go over to their home after school. And they had an Emmy or two or Oscars or something like that. There was Bob Banner's son, Baird Banner, and his father was a producer of Candid Camera. There was Scott Berg, my friend, my good friend, who his father was an agent. And then Jeff Benjamin's father was Gregory Peck's agent. So I grew up with all of these.

Oh, there was Nikki von Sternberg's father, was Joseph von Sternberg, the famous German director, whose real name was Stern. You're paling with all these interesting people. And then I think you were still in high school when you became friends with Henry Miller, who some of the younger people, I don't know if you know who he is, but he was this author, this famous author that was very controversial. He really took a liking to you. And I think that was the first time I met you.

I mentioned I had seen the documentary you did. That was 19, was that 1973, 1974, you did Henry Miller asleep and awake, which you filmed in his bathroom. That's right. I had been an apprentice to this documentary filmmaker named Robert Snyder, who made a film called The Titan Story of Michelangelo with Robert Flaherty, the Canadian father of the documentary film. He won an Oscar, and I asked him if I could work with them. And I studied editing, sound, film, everything. And we did films on Buckminster Fuller, the great architect of the Diadesic Dome, Anice Nin, the diarist, the woman, Willem Dekooning, the painter, and a lot of other people. And then on one of these things with the BBC, I had to run sound on Henry Miller. He lived in the Palisades. His house didn't burn down, thank God.

But I was running sound in the backyard in his pool. He was treading water and talking about his past, fabulous guy. wonderful storyteller. And after it was through, he said to me, and we started talking, he said, you know, Tom, you remind me of myself when I was your age. I want to talk to you. Come over. Bother me. Wake me up if you have to. But be my, you know, come over. So I did. And for 10 years, I was his pal. And we made this film together, the Henry Miller asleep and awake, in his bathroom where he has hundreds of pictures of writers, artists, and interesting people he tell stories about.

It was fascinating that Los Angeles Times does a write-up, the 24-year-old filmmaker Tom Schiller. How in 1966, this is February, are you on a panel on television with Phil Specter? This is called the TV listing said, speculation, Keith Berwick, the long hairs, are they for real? And it's you, Phil Spector, and it's a student, Tom Schiller, singer Judy Hensky and manager, Billy James. Yeah, that was weird to be on a TV show with Phil Spector. I mean, we clashed because I didn't have really long hair, but it was fairly long. And he was kind of making fun of people who had long hair. And he was kind of disagreeable.

And afterwards, Keith. Berwick, who was the moderator on this public television show, he said, you know, I liked the things you had to say. And I was in heaven. But just to be a kid, and then the LA Times is writing you up. You did this short with, it might have been one of your friends John Whitney Jr. And the LA Times called it hilarious. You did this thing. It was called Supra Market, S-U-P-R-A. And the LA Times had groceries and producer turned into sex symbols while intercut with fragments of labels on canned goods. the L.A. Times called it hilarious. So you're this kid getting written up by this major newspaper. That must have just really fueled you just with everything that you were doing,

working hard and being so focused at that age. It fueled me with a love of myself, which hasn't ceased. I mean, you definitely, I mean, you definitely, for somebody that had to have confidence to make it in this business being sure of themselves and just the work that you've done. And I mean, I feel so blessed that I've gotten to see a lot of your work that I don't think other people have seen. And I definitely want to talk about the movie about nothing lasts forever, which still to this day, whenever I watch it makes me laugh out loud. I mean, just my favorite, I think is Eddie Fisher. He's playing himself. And then you have this elderly lady that just looks at Eddie Fisher singing that Eddie Fisher, I thought he was dead. Huh. Yeah, so did I. But I got him for the movie.

Always makes me. Now, you were good friends with Carrie Fisher. You actually would you, you'd make the newspaper column. And it'd be like Terry Gard and her friend, Tom Schiller, Carrie Fisher and her friend Tom Schiller. So you were pals with all these people. Is that how I'm guessing through Carrie Fisher. That's how you got to know her dad and got her in the movie. Is that? That's right. They, they were all hung around Saturday night live. And I did. I got to meet Eddie Fisher through Carrie. And he said yes and appeared. the movie. He did sing his signature song called Oh My Papa. And years later, he told me, he said, by the way, I put it on a cha-cha beat on it. Anyway, he said it was disrespectful to the song. Really? I don't think anybody artistically really thought about that or noticed, but he was a good sport playing himself. But, I mean, is somebody that grew up? I mean, you were a kid when your parents would wake you up when your show of shows was on and suddenly imaging coca is in your film what was that like working with her well yeah that was the funny when i was like about seven or eight my parents would awaken me like at nine in the evening on a school night you know when i'm supposed

to be a bit in bed if a sketch was going well on your show of shows with sid caesar and imaging coca and i always loved her very much and uh she was so wonderful to work with it. It was like I got to, you know, work with my heroin. She was so funny and great. And I loved having her. I didn't even get the big names that people know, but this was Lauren Michael's first film that he produced, I believe, a studio film. And I mean, you have Bill Murray, you have Dan Eckhart. Is it true that John Belushi was cast and ready to go before he passed away? He was going to be in the movie? Yes. Unfortunately, he departed this world a few months before we started shooting. Which role was that? Who replaced him? I think he was some, he was going to be the bum

that he meets at Carnegie Hall and who lives in the underground world of New York City. Is that Sam Jaffe then you got to replace? Was that Sam Jaffe? I forget. No, uh, wait a minute, I can't remember the guys. It was a long time. He's an English stage actor who, who had the Okay, yeah, I forget the name and stuff. Call something. When you have Calvert DeForest. I mean, the movie is so much fun, Mort's Saul. Yes, by the way, I was lucky enough, excuse me, to get Calvert de Forest before he had his teeth fixed.

Oh, I didn't. I have to look at that. I never realized. For people that haven't seen this film, and it was an MGM film, and it was a really big deal. And lots of talk when you made this film, and unfortunately, most people haven't seen it. It was, there's been screenings, thankfully, and I mean, people love this film. But for people that haven't seen this, can you just talk about it, talk about this film and how it came together? It's definitely, if you can find it, you have to see this.

After five years of all of the original writers working at Saturday night, we were, MGM asked us to make, asked Lauren Michaels to make five movies. And so he had five of us writers write, he told me to write a Tom Schiller movie. So I took legal pads and started writing a Tom Schiller movie. And this was it. And for some reason, I was in heaven, they chose me to be the first film being done. And I think the last. But it was my first film and my last. it is one of those things where I mean they said do your thing and you absolutely did your thing in terms of I don't know MGM being like it you know I guess maybe they were thinking it was going to be something the tone was going to be different but I mean in terms of like people seeing this film it's so beloved but what was that like when they're at the Brill Building and they're screening your film and Lauren Michaels is there you have Mike Nichols Lillian Ross I think maybe Paul Simon and Candace Bergen what is that?

like to have all those people looking at your work? Are you nervous? Is it exciting? What was that experience like when they screened it? It was scary. Also, because Louis Moll was there, one of my heroes. And Candace Bergen's husband. That's right. And then I had to sit in the way in the back, like in steerage. And they were in the front watching it. And they didn't laugh or anything. And so only Candace Bergen came up to me afterwards and said, You have made a beautiful film, Tom, a beautiful film. So it was sort of, you know, disheartening. There's so many funny laughs in there.

I've been around and I've shown people. I don't know. Maybe it was just the room at the time and stuff. Now, Zach Gallaghan, I've gotten to meet a couple times. And we talked, and he was an unknown before Gremlins. and was a really fun choice for the film. I mean, you auditioned. I mean, Griffin Dunn, Matthew Modine, Matthew Broder,

but there was, and they all had more experience, but there was just something about his innocence and something about, I guess, his audition that just drew you to him. Yeah, right. I wanted to use someone that wasn't a known element so that people could identify with him, and maybe I should have.

He said, it told me some really, some interesting stories. I mean, he said that overall, he had a really good time with Bill Murray. He said they played basketball. He told me afterwards, and the movie, you know, hadn't come out or anything. And he was on the campus of Columbia going there and they were doing Ghostbusters. And Murray spotted him and was like, it's the kid. And, you know, this was when Murray and Akroyd and Ramos were getting mobbed on the campus of Columbia and stuff. But they got him past the barrier and stuff. But

he did tell me, and this is, I guess, kind of quintessential Bill Murray early on in his career, is that instead of faking the slap that Murray actually did slap him hard and he would mess up his takes on purpose to just, for whatever reason, maybe it was a brotherly thing, but he kept, is that your recollection that Murray just kept ruining takes so he got to hit him again, I guess? Yes. Bill is like, I mean, he surprises you with his reality, which is like nobody else's, but that's why he's so wonderful. And yeah, sometimes he'll really slap someone if there. calls for it. Yeah, he said that he was slapped and they kept messing up the take on purpose. And then you were saying, and I don't know of Murray at the time really kind of foresaw that this was going to happen, but you would walk around with Murray right when he had gotten hired at SNL and nobody knew who he was. I mean, he was not, I mean, if anything, he was getting, and he's talked about this. He was getting mail from people upset that they thought he was replacing Chevy and everything. But you

would tell Murray, you know, this is your last, your last chance of being not bothered by people. This is going to change. And sure enough, just a couple months later, it was like night and day. Yes, we called it the final days of anonymity. He always appreciated that because he can't go anywhere without someone seeing who he is. And rightly so. Yeah, because I think that you said that originally you'd be out with Gilda and initially it was just like this pleasant surprise or just like people were watching the show, and then it just becomes, it can get to be unmanageable. But you, you witnessed all of this. Yes, I did. And I stayed a step away in the shadow. What was it like the early Saturday Night Live parties? Because, you know, they become legendary. But originally,

a lot of them were at 1 5th Avenue, which was managed by Keith McNally, who, you know, he owns Balthazar now and he pastes. But I believe that McNally was the one that was managing those. What were it they like back then? Like now, you know, it's like there's so much security outside. It's like so paparazzi and stuff. How was that evolution? What was that evolution like of the after party when it became? It was like nothing, I'm guessing, in the beginning and became this thing.

It was fun and exciting and full of energy. And I don't know how I stayed up that late. But after doing a whole show, you were kind of psyched up. And everyone was sort of happy to see each other. And it was quite a. So you sort of felt you had arrived in the New York night life. And so it was kind of neat. Yeah, this was down by Washington Square Park.

And originally, there weren't the limousines, correct, like when the show first started for the cast and the writers, because, I mean, eventually it's just, I mean, on what it would be, 49th straight, lined with like 20 or 30 limos. But in the beginning, it wasn't like that, correct? That's correct. You didn't, you had the anonymity at that point. But then later on, there would be very strange people thrusting sharpies with eight by tens in your face, and you'd have to sign it. But I guess that's the price of great success on television.

Yeah, everything changed. You told me one time that SNL was kind of like the Wizard of Oz. No one had any idea in the beginning that this was going to happen. And I don't think I knew about this until recently is that, you know, when I think about the original SNL writers and just, really the influence that you have had on the show that originally you were hired is Lauren's assistant, correct? Yeah, that's right. I was, I knew him a couple of years before he started the show, so we were buddies, but he

did. I was kind of like I would answer the phone and bring people into the office. It was a tiny office in Rockefeller Center on the 17th floor, and it had a desk and a couch. I sat on the couch, and he sat behind the desk, and there was a receptionist, and then all these people started filing through, who would later become, you know, Michael O'Donoghue, Alan Swy Bell, Rosie Schuster, everybody started coming through, but it was really just me and Lorne sitting there in Rockefeller Plaza. How long were you staying at Lorne's Place at the Osborne on 57th straight on the couch?

Oh, about a week only, I think. Oh, I thought it was longer. And then during that week, famously, you know, Mick Jagger is hanging out at the Osborne and you're trying to, you're just waiting for him to leave so you can go to sleep. That's right. I would just, I would loathe him. I mean, I didn't care if it was Mick Jagger.

He was sitting on where I wanted to go to sleep when he left and I was exhausted. Is this before SNL was even launched? Because you get there in the summer of 75 and at the Osborne, and I'm guessing this was before everything happened. Is that the case? Yeah, that's right. And it was in the summer of 75, right? It was that you got there and you've said this and it's still like in terms of somebody's social skills and somebody's charisma, the fact that Lauren had so few credits and that he's hanging out with Mick Jagger. And I mean, it's just, it's extremely rare for somebody like that, that young that doesn't have those accomplishments to have all

this gravitational pull towards people that are the most famous people. Everyone wanted to be around Lauren even before he was Lauren to the public. That's right. And I just wanted them to go home so I could go to sleep. When Desi Arnaz came to host Saturday Night Live, I think it was 76 or 77. Did he remember you from when you were a kid at the tapings? Who? Desi Arnaz. Oh, sure. He did. He did. I knew him for. when I was, you know, a kid, tiny kid. And also, he had a golf course in Palm Springs that my father used to take, go to, and I'd go to also. But yes, he did remember me. And he said, in his book called A Book, it was, he said, you know, Tommy, I love you. And now I love you and your father.

That's so nice. This was, yeah, Desi Arnaz hosted in February of 76. And you, you wrote I don't know if anyone helped you on it, but you wrote that the Lucy show sketch, correct? Yeah, you mean the different iterations of Lucy? Yes, you actually are in this sketch. It was fun, and then you had his son, Desi Arnaz Jr. was in it. That's right. He's also a pal and was in one of my shorts called Sushi by the Pool. Yeah, so Desi Arnaz comes in, and then that's the sketch where at the end there's this setup

where you think it's going to be a special walk-on cameo and probably people in the audience or maybe thinking it's like Lucille Ball or somebody really famous. And then you have the joke is that it's the SNL prop person. That's right. That was an inside joke. Chevy Chase told me that when Desi came in, I guess he was rehearsing something with Howard Shore and was just not in a good mood or whatever

and was just yelling at Howard and Chevy kind of like had to step up a little bit. He told me he did did this. Was that your memory that Desi Ernest maybe? I don't know. It was all these younger people. And then he just, maybe it was just a different time, a different approach than he was used to. Is that, is that your memory? I heard about that. I didn't see it. But Milton Burrell was the one who was really against everybody. Yeah. I mean, talk about culture shock. When he came in, I had heard and I met somebody that actually was at that taping and said exactly what was reported was that Belushi was go under the bleachers telling the people that were in the stands, please laugh. I mean, Belushi was the one person kind of like that grew up. I mean, I don't know and grew up, I guess, watching Burrell, but at that point, just defending him and his behavior. And that's at least what I was told. He was a good guy to me because when he appeared on the, Here's Lucy or one of those Lucy shows, I got to go down to the studio and watch them shoot it.

And he showed me later on this movieola that had four heads, the four. foreheaded monster, it was called. It was a moviola, and it showed every angle of every shot in sync. And he said, you see, kid, they shoot cut from that shot to that shot to that shot. So he was actually kind of teaching me how they edited the film. And I thought that was really neat. Then later, when he came on the show, the musical guest was Ornette Coleman, a very experimental jazz guy. And Milton Burrell remembered me. And he said, Tommy. come here and he took me into his dressing room and as he

was spraying his bald spot with black paint, he said what is that shit out there meaning the music? And I said, I don't know, man. It's an Ornette Coleman. A generational thing. I know that Lauren said that

that was the one show that they wouldn't let rerun. I don't know if there were others. There might have been, but definitely somebody who just did not fit the culture. But most of the other people that were older like that would come in for the would would get it i i know ruth gordon lauren was up frustrated with because he was loved harold and maud which a lot of us do halashby and she really didn't get it is that your recollection as well yes because uh bill murray and i

wrote a sketch called the ruth gordon no liquid diet and she refused to perform it but she she did yeah she didn't get it but she was the only one who came back the next day, Monday, and gave Lauren a letter of thank you, which I thought was rather classy. Oh, I've never heard of that. That's so interesting, especially somebody that was, didn't really get it or trust the process. That was, at least something that was nice. So October of 1970, it's your first of maybe something 50, Schiller's real short film. And this is the one I remember being at, which is now the Paley Center, it's the Museum of TV and radio, watching The Acid Generation, which was the first film that you had. Madeline Khan was the host.

And I just remember somebody at the Museum of TV and radio having to actually touch my shoulder because I was laughing too loud in the screening room. And there's all these other people that are watching with their private consoles. But can you talk about that? That was the first one. You filmed this in Venice, California. It was basically, you know, go do your thing. Well, I have this thing, I guess, that I can tell what people are going to look like when they're old. And I did that with a Belushi movie, which we're going to talk about later, I guess. But this was these older people. When I went to this Jewish home, they were like 90, and they kept, I made them read off of cards, and I gave them 20 bucks each, which I shouldn't brag about.

It's not too much. But they said, I remember Hendricks at Monterey as if it was yesterday. And, you know, they said old things like that. So it was funny to make them reminisce about the old days that were in the past. It was really funny. That was, did you realize at that point because you had Albert Brooks doing the films and then Gary Wise came in and he laughed. Did you realize was that one of those things where Lauren is like, you're the guy now that are doing that? Was it, or is it just like, I'm just going to do one and see how it goes? It was kind of I was going to get it.

I was pretty sure. And I knew that if I kept it short and it was funny, I could keep going, which I did. When you filmed one of your most famous pieces with Gilda Radner and it's this Fulini homage, and you shot it at 1 5th Avenue. And then after the party, I'm guessing, I think that's the right timeline that you, Gilda is still out and you're on the west side highway and you had to wait until the sunrise is coming up. How much notice do you give Gilda? because I don't even think she had seen a script or any of the actors. Do you just maybe tell her like a day before where at the party we're going to film something and just go with it?

Yes, because she had to get a really good dress that would remind us of Julietta Massina. But this man Felini, he was my ultimate. I loved him so much when I was about 15 and I saw eight and a half. I realized that's when I wanted to become a foreign film director. And so at 1 5th Avenue, I had things on index cards, so I passed them around and people did it. And then we had to wait on the West Side Highway, which was still up at that point. And until dawn came up to get the right look where she ends the film. I didn't realize I could have shot that at dusk, and no one would have known the difference.

So that was something I learned. You know what people that like, Brian, but De Palma's in that, correct? Yeah, he was in the audience. Sort of like, wow, a real director was there. So I was intimidated. Yeah, it was just the luck. I mean, you have your camera, you're shooting stuff. Some of the people probably there is like, what's going on?

No one's ever probably going to see this. And then it's this thing that is so beloved. So you're waiting for the sun to come up with Gildo. What do you do for a couple hours to kill? time waiting for the sun to go down we we we just sat around one fifth avenue i think for hours which i regret but uh it worked anyway by the way he wasn't the only big director there i mean once i met stephen spielberg after i had done a few of my short films and he said to me if you don't let me produce your first film i'll break both your legs and i am sitting in a wheelchair

But, no, Spielberg, I know you were at his home. Yeah, he was screening the film, a guy called Joe, I think, which he did another film with Belushi in it or something based on that film. I met him a few times. So at what point you do the film with the short with Gilda, the what is it, La Goli, is that it? Right. Oh, and I showed it to Fellini.

Go ahead. That's what I was going to ask. You go to Rome. First of all, how do you hook up with Fellini and how many years passes that you shot this that you actually show it to Felini? And what is going through your mind as your hero is watching what you created? Well, I went physically, I went to Chinni Chita in Rome, his studio. And I said, I'm a friend of Paul Mazurski, which I was, and Henry Miller, I'd like to go say hello to Fellini. And they let me in. And when I was in, I met Mastriani happened to walk by, too. And I told Fulini, I said, I made a film in your homage. And he said, we must arrange a screening. And he did. A couple of days later, I screened it. And I was terrified. But at the end of it, he said, it has the atmosphere of some of my films. Karina, sweet.

That must have been just incredible. I was in heaven. That lasted a long. long time. It seems like some of your most beloved films were, um, you, you just got this incredible talent, but you, the timing was all completely there. Because somebody like Belushi, when you did don't look back in anger, had been up all night partying. And it's one of those things sometimes are like, are they going to be able to hit their marks? Are they going to be able to, what kind of condition are they? And so tell me if I have this right, that you pick up Belushi in the morning, and he had been up partying. He's in probably, and doesn't look like any condition. And as you're driving to the location, the cemetery, he's actually in the back of the van and he's asleep on a mattress?

Yes, we were going down the highway, which was bounce. The car was bouncing really a lot. And I look at the back, and I couldn't believe how the guy was sleeping. And he did the movie, and he hit every single mark, except once he did a whole take without his glass, he was wearing glasses in the, and he had to do it again for the glasses. But he was great. He was right on, and you couldn't tell that he had been partying all night long. Yeah, he definitely, when the camera's on, I mean, there's certain people that can just, yeah, produce. But you only did a few takes, so this was a pretty short film shoot, I'm guessing.

Right, it was in some cemetery. Yeah, was that in Queens? Was that in Brooklyn? I don't know. It was a long time ago. I forget. I think Queens. It was a long time ago.

I mean, it's such a compliment and such a testament to your ability whenever they do the big SNL. anniversary prime time specials that they show your work. I mean, and it's not like they show, they show clips of other things, but they show pretty much everything that you've done when Phil Hartman, unfortunately, when he passed away and they showed love is a dream. Was that your idea when they were trying to come up with stuff that maybe that showed Phil Hartman in this beautiful light? Was that Lorne? Or how did that come about? Yeah, it was my idea. I don't know. I sometimes got ideas because at NBC they had this from the radio days. They had these listening rooms where you could check out huge records with soundtracks.

And I would sit in there and listen to the soundtracks to get ideas for my short films. And I heard this one song, Love is a Dream, which is the Emperor's Waltz by Strauss set to music in the 40s. and I thought this would be great for him and for the couple of them would be great in this. Yeah, it's sung by Bing Crosby and you have Jan Hooks and you have Phil Hartman. Can you set this up?

And I was one of those things. Also, I imagine this would have taken at least a couple days, but you shot it all in one day. But what is the premise? The idea is this elderly lady goes to her safe deposit box in the basement of a bank and she opens it up and there's sort of a T-E tiara and some pearls, and she puts them on, and it transports her back in color to her youth,

where she dances the waltz with this guy, a prince, and then they both end, and she puts it away. And as she leaves the bank, you realize that the guy is, the prince is the guy in the bank, and that they've had this magic rendezvous. Yeah, Phil Harmon and Jan Hux. I mean, just so exquisite. It's your first one, I believe that you did when you came back after all those years. Such a, and then contrast in that, which, you know, the love is a dream is just a beautiful thing. Like really not the hard laughs.

But then you contrast that with the Chris Farley, Volgers Crystles parody, where they showed that as well, I believe, on one of the anniversaries, one of the big anniversaries. And that is something that I still see all over the internet with people doing me. and, you know, people show in Farley's genius, and inevitably in the top three or, I don't know, four pieces that they show of Farley's work years comes up. Did you have any idea when you did this that the response I was going to get? None whatsoever, and I didn't even think it was one of my greatest ones, but I'm honored that it sort of survived as being something great. And it's something also that it's an example of using the best attributes of the actor like he was great at going into a rage and putting that in a short film that was my trick

my secret yeah it really holds up and then at the same time you were once in a while and i really enjoyed these i remember shannon doherty when she hosted and she was getting a lot of bad press for her her behavior which i don't know if it was true or not but she hosted the show and you directed it was her monologue and it was like her supposed to be her wedding and she was the time it just got married to ashley hamilton and they only stayed married i guess a couple months But you, in the monologue, they showed part of her wedding, and she was just like playing this version of herself that the media portrayed her as, which was just like so difficult and bratty and just it was hilarious. Do you remember working with her on that? Yes.

Everyone said she was difficult. But so she came on the set, and she did immediately get angry that there was no cue cards for her. So I said, well, I'll get some cue cards made. let's just go over the lines. There aren't very many. And I tricked her into go. I sort of tricked her into going over the lines, which there weren't very many. And she did it. And she was quite friendly and easy to work with. I talked to people that were over there and they said she was very lovely. And I think people do really well. Kim Kardashian did this a year or two ago when they can go on and make fun of themselves and whatever the media, what kind of the public persona is and just

kind of go against it and mock it. And I thought she was really relevant. Who are some of the other host that you remember that you got to kind of bring in? I mean, that's now what happens all the time with the digital shorts, which is like, I mean, compared to what you, the process of everything that you had to go through with your filming things. I mean, it was just a night and day, how just the details and just how hard everything was back then to film versus now. But who are some of the other hosts that you remember that you did stuff with? Well, uh, Tony Perkins was interesting because I was an extra in some square dance sketch, and I was standing next to him before the camera, before we were on. And he turned to me and he said, I just took mescalum.

That was rather interesting. Anthony Perkins, wow. I liked Broderick Crawford because nobody will remember him now, but he was huge. and the actor, and he came and sat in my office and told about the old days of Hollywood for like two hours. I don't know why he chose me, but he did. That was interesting. Was he one of the only ones? I know that he had some, I mean, it's been written about it. I know that he was heavily drinking that week. Was he one of the, I mean, who else was there, was there any question about him going on or some of the other people? I know that there were some question on a few

of the other cast members if they were going to be able to do the show, not cast members but host. Was he one of them and was there anyone else that was questionable that you remember that they were going to be able to go out there and do the show? Let's see, I'm thinking of my favorite year, Peter O'Toole, but that isn't Saturday Night Live. But it was definitely, I think, inspired when he came and did the show. I think that there was definitely from what I heard that that was definitely, that was definitely something that that influenced. But it's just amazing, just the people that you got to work with. I'm looking right now as your collaboration with Akroyd. I don't know how many sketches you wrote with Dan Akroy, but

and how many of these recurring, but it was like bad musical, bad opera, bad ballet, bad cinema. I think there were a few more, but can you talk about your collaboration on these recurring sketches? Oh, he's, Akroyd is an alien from outer space, and he, people don't know, but he is hooked in to somewhere, some other galaxy, I don't know. And I so much loved working with him because he was so weird, had such wonderful, right, just strange ideas and stuff like that. He was good. He was in Decibet, too, the 10-letter alphabet, and he did so many wonderful things. I love him. Yeah, I remember you did. I think it was one of the bad play or something like that. Isn't it the end where they throw the script in the garbage can, something like that? That's right. He always did that. I think that was his idea, in fact. they always threw the script heath into the trash can i got to another podcast i did talk to louise lasser and she did um we were talking about when she hosted the show and you did

that Swedish film uh with her what was that like if you recall well i love doing it as swedish accents and stuff and i love bergman so it was fun to do and she was with chevy and she kept touching his face and like really pulling it hard like rubber it was pretty scary. But she was good when she was on. She was fine. Those auditions, because you know, you get here in 1975, this summer, SNL premieres in October.

So you're at these auditions. Who were some of the people instantly that was without a question? I mean, Lord Michaels will say sometimes it just like right away you can tell. Who were some of the people that you saw? They were like, this person has to be in the cast. Well, was Andy Kaufman in an audition? Do you happen to know? I don't know if Andy auditioned or not.

At that point, I'm guessing he probably would have auditioned, I'm guessing. He struck me, but also, Belushi struck me right away because we were all sitting in this room on 57th Street called the Jewish Sciences Room in Steinway Hall. And we kept hearing about this guy downstairs and the audition waiting for the audition who was swinging a pole around and terrorizing. people. We thought he was going to really hurt somebody. And so I said, quick, hire him before he killed somebody. But he came upstairs. And instead of being violent with that stick, he played pool in a most gentle and funny way. And I thought, this guy's good. Yeah, I've seen, I don't know if that was the same audition or the screen test he did, but then you saw him do the samurai, and you were the one that wrote Samurai Hotel. Here's how it started. He imitated Toshiro Mo.

Funi or somebody in its Japanese movie, Judy said his wife, by sticking things into a chair at the house. So he had that character, the samurai, which I loved. And I always was trying to figure out a way to use it. And so Samurai Hotelier is the way I wrote it first. But then they said no one would get what the word hotelier was. We have to put Samurai Hotel, which was my first. censorship thing, which I surprised at. But he was great at that, and he was great in all the Samarise. Was there anybody that you thought should have made the cast? I mean, you mentioned Andy Kaufman that should have been in the original cast that wasn't. I know Bill Murray, they brought him in later, but Mimi Kennedy is one person I interviewed who said that, you know,

went really well. And I think even Lauren was quoted in other people saying that they wanted her in, and for whatever reason, she had a really good audition. She did a parody of Helen Reddy's I Am Woman, Jeremy or something about a dog. She was great. Yeah, she was great. But also, there are so many writers out there who are just as good as we were, if not better, that I wonder, like, why didn't they get a chance, too? You know, it's sad to think that I miss the people who didn't get the shot. I mean, that does happen.

I mean, Mimi went on to have an amazing career. You make a really good point because I had no idea that this was true. but when you were hired as a writer, you didn't know how to write a sketch at all you said. You said you had zero experience writing comedy like that. That's right. I looked up to my father who really knew how to write situation comedy and when there were only like 40 writers in Hollywood on television and radio.

And he just told me there had to be a laugh every three lines. And you have to see their eyes. So I was intimidated because of his skill. I mean, I could never match my father's craft at that. But we just started writing and just saw what worked and what didn't work and everything. And I wrote my first commercial parody, Try Openan, which is the pills you can't open for arthritis. And so we just sort of taught ourselves. But they were still long with no ending.

That got on the very first show, your commercial parody, and that was Chevy's hands. correct chubby chase that's right that's right chubby chase and i were best friends for 14 weeks 14 weeks i was going to ask you um about hiring al frankin and tom davis i know that was was your hire and you read some of their material their packets how many packets were coming uh to you and loren and were you reading a lot of scripts was there anyone else that got hired just based on that material other than frankin and davis well it was after i really reluctantly said, okay, I'll work on Saturday Night Live, Lauren. He sent me about 25 scripts of different teams. He said we needed a team. And so I read through all, most of them are pretty

bad. But these were good. And they had one sketch in there called World War III that caught my eye. And I said, these guys are good. Let's hire them. Yeah. And then they split a salary of, I forget how much it was for the first season. Yeah, it was nothing. But it was the best. I mean, it was such a big break. And in terms of being prolific, in terms of being valuable to the show. So you were about 17 years old when your dad was working with Lauren Michaels. He must have been like, I think at the time 21 or 22. He was working. It was a Phyllis Diller show, correct? And that's how you both met. Your dad's like you should meet this guy that I work with. That's right. I had returned from London or Copenhagen. where I was living and staying at my dad's house, you know, just temporarily until I got another apartment. And my dad said, you've got to meet this guy, Lauren Michaels. He's Canadian. And I said, and then he said, well, he knows all the best restaurants in town. And I thought, so what? And then anyway, one day he did come up to the house with his friend John Head, a wonderful guy who's no longer

with us, English guy, Lauren's friend, John. And Lauren, he's wearing this Hawaiian shirt. And he was sort of like nerdy, but he was highly articulate and just kept talking. He was very avuncular, like being your uncle or something like that. He would tell you what you had to do. You had to be with your peer group, and you had to be writing, and you had to be working and stuff. So he was kind of compelling in that way. And then, and when, where I was in my room, he lit a joint, which, I mean, we all smoked pot, but we wouldn't light a joint in my father's house. That was a no-no. But we thought that was rather balsy. Big impression. You're 17. And then you're starting to hang out with him at the Chateau Marmont. That's right. The Chateau Marmot was sort of a hub of

interesting people and writers and actors and old Hollywood. the lore and stuff. So it was fun to go there. How hard was that when you have Henry Miller, who you respect and so many people in literature, just in terms of his mind, when he has all this wisdom and experience, and he's telling you, do not take the Saturday Night Live. You want to stay away from television. How hard decision was that to ignore his advice? Was it a tough decision for you? Very tough, because, you know, I just, I adored Henry and his fellow. philosophy and all of that, but he could also be very old-fashioned, and especially in his attitude to women and stuff. So it was hard for me to make the decision. But ultimately,

I said, L.A. is not the place to be a great director yet or something. I want to go to New York, and so I took the job. Plus, you have this guy who's very charismatic, Lauren Michaels, who, I don't think I'm exaggerating. He would be talking about this show that he wanted to to do. I don't know if it was for years, but it was nonstop, correct? So he's, I mean, he definitely is a convincing guy, but you're listening to him for all this time, talk about what he wants to do, which is so counterculture to what was getting on TV. It was. It was. And he did talk nonstop 24-7 about this show. And you got the feeling that he was making it up as he went along, but it made sense. And it was compelling. And I, and it did say,

make a lot of sense, and so I went along with it. What were the circumstances? Because you would go with him to certain meetings, and I know that you were with him when you went to NBC Burbank, and Lauren wanted to screen Monty Python. I don't know if it was the TV series

or if it was Holy Grail for one of the execs there. I don't know if it was Herb Schlaas or who was NBC president. But I know that Lauren wanted to show this executive Python, and I guess the executive was just on the phone for most of the time. But do you recall what that, why he wanted to show Python. Maybe it was just like, this is what we're trying to do. Yeah, I think he has said this is the vein of comedy that we want to kind of,

the absurd kind of comedy we want to sort of explore. And I went with him, as I did in those days, going around with him, looking for talent and meeting with people like Dick Ebersoll and his agent and stuff. We went to the screening room in Burbank, and we sat in the back, and the guy, this guy, whoever this NBC executive, was on the phone the entire time the Monty Python was on the air being screened. So I couldn't believe it, but it was true. The support of the network, you couldn't tell if you watched the movie. I like Jason Raiment a lot, and I know that if you're doing a movie, the Saturday Night movie, you need to have some

drama and conflict. But as I've said before on this podcast, and you were there, and I've interviewed Herb Schlossner, and I've heard Lauren say this, the network was in complete support of the show. I mean, is that your recollection? I guess. I don't know. I think we were protected by Lauren because he had to deal with these executives, you know, and he'd come back from these meetings, like, completely wrung out from having to defend the show. So we were pretty much, to Lauren's credit, you know, know, shielded from all this insanity of the people who ran NBC and stuff. How many times did you get to be a bee in the bee sketches? Because I know that I've seen you in a bee sketch before. Maybe two times. What were your thoughts on the bees? I know Belushi, obviously, not a fan of the bees and stuff. But they, I mean, we're talking about them 50 years later, so they're memorable. Well, it was sort of humiliating, but fun to be on TV at the same time. When they made you a featured player year last year, what was that like? I mean, in terms of

like the, I guess that would have been, what, 79 to 80? What was your thought when they, when they did that? I'm not quite sure I was a featured player. I can't, I see it on websites and stuff, but I don't believe it. I wasn't really, I don't think I was. I got to go a couple, well, not a couple times. I was there at the show a bunch of times in the green room and they would have these photos of all the featured players and your photo was up there. And so his downy, he was considered one as well. I believe that that's true, but that was a long time ago. What was it like doing your final? I don't know if you knew it was going to be the final Schiller's reel that you did with Norm MacDonald. I don't know. I had such a great team.

I had like the prop people and the special effects guy making smoke and the costume guy. And Norm MacDonald, he was so good. He had a great look for a black and white silent film. And so, and they built a beautiful set for me. I mean, I was so fortunate to have all those resources at my back. And so it was fun. It was great, a pleasure. It's amazing everything you did. Were there ever times where there was maybe, I don't know, I don't want to say disputes,

but it was a question of whether there was a pre-shoot that needed to be taken care of that Jim Singarelli was going to do it or you were going to do it? How was that decided? And was there ever anything that either of you kind of really wanted to do that the other, I don't know how that was worked out or whatever. Was that ever an issue? Not really. It was pretty clear what Jim did, and he did it very well. And he did it for many, many, many years. And I admire his technique and stuff like that. And the commercials were terrific. But I don't know. I just did sort of like the leftover pre-tapes. Kind of like there was one with I Love Lucy. There was one with dancing. There's one with Alec Baldwin, I think, where he was like an 007 guy. It just sort of dwindled down. yeah it was so much fun um i saw a bunch of photos from you at radio city music hall for the snl 50th and i saw a bunch of photos of uh on gattie image of you and your lovely wife jacky what was that like going back uh i don't know i felt that the 40th said it all and also i hate modern

music not modern you know loud yeah but uh but it was fun it was all right it was good and the and the show itself, I was honored when they showed the Belushi film. I love that, yeah, that you got to be there. And what was the after-party like at the plaza? Pretty loud and disparate and kind of wandering around. But I got to see Conan, who's a hero, and Bill Murray and I saw each other again, which is good to see him always. And David Letterman was there, all the biggies. When you weren't not necessarily the news, was Conan still there at the time? Was that before he was at S&L, or did you work on not necessarily the news? I don't think he was there at the time. What was that experience like to go from S&L to not necessarily the news? It was strange because

in essence, what it was was weekend update all day. You would write that all day. And it's just it was, they were a bunch of great writers and I love them still, but it wasn't challenging enough or something. Conan would say it was so strange because I think that was one of his first jobs that the writers were not allowed to talk to the actors, which, you know, I don't know if that helps the process. That was very much, I guess, Latin was like that when Lorne Michaels was doing that with George Schlauter. Was that your memory as well, that they kept everybody completely? I was there for so short. I don't really remember that.

But you got to speak to the actors because they give you your greatest ideas. What was it like going to the Joshua tree with Lorne Michaels? To go into, oh, well, he had this red Volkswagen bug. and he was driving and he was like weaving around because he was talking so much about Saturday Night Live what he wanted to do with it and everything. So I was scared. And we went to the Joshua Tree Inn and coincidentally I had a friend staying there too, which was good. But he brought out this little tinfoil of mushrooms and he took one. And I pretend I didn't want to be unconscious with somebody. I didn't know him that well. And so I pretended to take them. And then he took

telephone calls from New York, from NBC, and I was surprised how articulate he was and how he could carry on these conversations while being on, you know, mushrooms. His skill set being able to handle the network, I mean, and be able to handle the creative. That's very rare to be able to get both. What was I like going on the Mike Douglas show in 1980 when Elliot Gould was the co-host? It was Kate Jackson, Rupert Holmes, Byron Allen, and yourself. Oh, to me, it was funny. It was kind of kitschy to be, you know, with Mike Douglas. And Elliot Gould and I are great friends, and I love him.

So it was sort of weird to be on a TV show, but I knew the mechanics of how to act and how to sit there and stuff like that. And they sang that song, Do You Like Pina Colato? which is not one of my top ten. Rupert Holmes, that's not one of your favorite. Yeah, that was his picket. In terms of when you go out on the road, I know sometimes people will have retrospects of your work. What are some of the,

I'm guessing it's the Belushi one and the Gilda one, but what are some of the others that you hear from fans of yours and stuff in terms of Schiller's Real in terms of your work that people just still, to this day, love to bring up to you? Well, those are the two, the Belushi and the Bloods, Dolce Gilda. And I think the Farley is a perennial favorite. People seem to love that. And that's

all right with me. Java junkie. I actually have to, no one is going to be able to see this except for you, but I'm going to show you what I have right here, which is prize possession. It probably on the screen will look in reverse. That's funny. I see it. Yeah, that's right. That's the VHS. Yeah, the Schiller's Real classic collection. It has, oh my goodness, this is amazing. It has the acid generation. It has life after death. Don't look back in anger. Sushi by the pool. What else does it have? Oh, my goodness. The Picasso of the New York years. Which one was that? I remember seeing that, but it's been a while. The Picasso of the New York years. That was just New Yorkers on the street, correct? Sort of. It's like it pretended that Picasso lived in New York for a little while, which he didn't.

and it had these normal people who knew him, like at the deli where he doodled on the formica table. And then he left a big sculpture down in Washington Square. You came back, I know, a couple times to do guest writing stints at SNL. I don't know if this was in the 2000s. It could have been, but what was that like when you would go back to the show occasionally to do something? I mean, maybe an acroid was there? I think I only did once. and that was when Dick Ebersaw was producing it.

Oh, I thought you went back. I thought they did one of your recurring sketches when Akroyd was there, one of the bad playhouse type things. Much later. Maybe they did. Okay. I forget. But the one thing I remember is when I walked into the writer's room,

everyone applauded. It was the nicest feeling I ever had. I mean, you're Tom Schiller. And, I mean, it's, no, your stuff is just absolutely incredible. It holds up. Tom Schiller, thank you so much for talking with us. Oh, it's a pleasure, Mark. It's also great to see you and how you've ingrained yourself in our industry. I'm trying, my friend. You were so kind. I remember you signing this VHS tape for me many moons ago. I'm not going to say what year it is because it dates me, but you wrote to Mark, life is worth living. Remember this.

Tom Schiller. And that was, I was doing, I used to do a live, like a late night type show down in the village or whatever. And you were one of my guests. and I just remember being so excited that you were, I wrote you a letter and you just called me and your kindness just shines through and I like your stuff too because I love the Cinderella shoe thing.

Do you think that was hilarious? Oh, that was for Disney. Yeah, Disney had me to do that. We filmed that in Central Park. We filmed all these things that didn't air, but they did that. And then the last thing I do want to say is I had just gotten married when you had did your big Walter Reed, Lincoln Center screening of Nothing Last Burr.

And I couldn't go. And I didn't even know who was going to be there other than you, but Bill Murray was there. And I think a bunch of other Mike Streeter, who's a friend of ours who wrote that fabulous book on your life. And what was that like to show that film there and have Murray there? And I mean, I just talked to people that were there and just absolutely love it. What was that like for you? It was like a pinnacle of why I did it to show a group of people like that. It was a very satisfying, wonderful. Tell Jackie, I said hi. Thank you for doing this. At some point, I know you have a lot going on. Would you come back and be a guest? I know that the listeners would have so many questions for you if they submitted that. Would you be okay to come back at some point? Sure, I'd be delighted. Tom, thank you so much for doing this.

Mark, keep up the good work. You're great. Thank you, sir. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode. On Apple Podcast, please rate it and leave a review. Be sure to go to late-nighter.com for all your late-night night. TV news and you can find my podcast at latenighter.com forward slash podcasts. Have a wonderful week and I'll

see you next Tuesday. I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to go. Oh.

Thank you. Thank you.