Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - ALLISON MACK: From Smallville to Cult Scandal & Taking Accountability for It Today

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Allison Mack (Smallville, Wilfred) joins us for one of the most raw and reflective conversations we've ever had... After years away from the public eye, Allison opens up about her journey from fame and ambition to manipulation and accountability, sharing how she rebuilt her identity after the collapse of everything she knew. She reflects on her time within NXIVM, the process of taking responsibility, her years in prison, and the deep inner work it took to rediscover empathy and purpose. Thank you to our sponsors: xxx __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou 👕 Inside Of You Merch: https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🤣 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod 🌐 Website: https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Ryan Tejas is here. I am here. Welcome. Thanks for listening. Thanks for, you know, a lot of people are here, obviously, to listen to the Allison Mac episode. So just hear a few words for me. I'm not going to bore the life out of you.

But all I ask is if you like this interview, stick around, you know, write a review and follow us and support us. Support us. And also you could join patron to support this little podcast and the patrons really save this show and patron.com slash inside of you. You can go to my Instagram at the Michael Rosenbaum, my link tree, all that stuff for updates on the Smallville crews and products and all that good stuff. And the inside of you online store for a ton of cool smallville merch. But today it's a very special episode. I have a feeling this might be bigger than a lot of the episodes. Allison Mack is here from Smallville.

And as you know, I knew her for many years, I mean, since 2000-ish, right? Yeah, something like that. But it's been probably 25 years. And I hadn't seen her since I left the show, maybe on occasion, maybe once or twice at a con or something. But, you know, after everything happened with Nexium and going to prison. and I haven't obviously talked to her for quite a long time. I didn't think she would come in first. And she was on time, unlike a lot of guests.

And we get into a lot of stuff. And, you know, she has, she did this other podcast that just came out. And I think if you want to listen after this episode, you can go for a deep dive into that. But I really like how this episode went, and I'm going to let you decide how you feel about it. I had a lot of questions, and I'm not an interrogator. I'm not Barbara Walters. I'm just a guy just wanting to ask questions. And, you know, she answered a lot of questions.

And, you know, some were more difficult to answer. And some were a little private. So I thought she was pretty forthcoming. and it gave me a different perspective on what she's doing and now working in prison reform and getting her master's in social work and a lot of stuff so I want you to you know a lot of we've talked about this on the podcast you'll see and I'll get into it but I guess I'm just prefacing this saying we had a discussion I wanted to hear her voice how she was affected how she affected others, how she feels about it, what she did to get through it, what she's doing to get

through it. I guess I'll just let you listen. So let's get inside of Allison Mack. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. Jeez, it's so weird seeing you because, I mean, I knew you since you were like a little girl, not a little girl, but you were 18. I was, they call it Tay, transitional age youth. Is that what it is? Yeah, that's what it is. Tay.

It's not like, 67. Yeah, no, no. 42. No. Is it something like that? Am I doing it wrong with the kids are doing? No, I think that is what the kids are doing it. I don't really know either.

I don't know what it means. But no, in different social services and social welfare industries and stuff like that, they call. at Transition Age Youth, because your brain doesn't stop developing until you're 25. But at 18, you're now suddenly cut loose and expected to be independent and successful. But your brain's not fully formed. And so that makes perfect sense. Yeah. To me.

Yeah. I don't think my brain's still. Well, and for men, it takes even longer. Yeah. Well, they always say women change every five years. Do they? Or maybe it's people in general, but I thought it was women. Like, you know, when you're a younger woman, I don't.

I've heard from other women that, like, who you are when you're 25 is completely different who you are when you're 30. Yeah. And I don't know if that's the same with men. I think that men all of a sudden, I don't know if they ever grow up in many ways. Yeah. I think that's probably true. There's a little bit more simply, I mean, not to get super, like, sexist and gendered, but sort of

I'm doing that already. No, no, no. But, like, yeah, I mean, there is kind of, like, the stereotype of, like, men being a little bit more straight forward and cut and dry and women being a little bit more complex and nuanced. But you were always like, I don't know, worldly, you, you know, your family. I mean, growing up, like, I know you went to like operas and. Well, my dad's an opera singer. Well, that would, that would make sense. Yeah. I came from the family of art. That was it. You grew up fast, didn't you? Yeah. In some ways. And then in other ways, there were parts of me that

never really had the chance to, you know? Right. So I was wise beyond my ears in certain circumstances and then incredibly immature in other ways. Were you when you were younger? Like for me, I always felt like I needed attention because I didn't get it at home. So I was always craving for attention. Were you like that? Absolutely.

But it wasn't because I didn't get it at home. I got a lot of attention at home. You did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it was because I started working when I was so young. It's like seven. Four.

Four. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know how to read when I started to learn how to memorize. So my mom would read my lines to me and I would memorize auditorily. So my memory is insane. Like I went back to school when I was 36. And I realized I'm really good at school, not necessarily because I'm like super smart, but because I remember things really. You remember. Do you retain things from a long time ago, too? Or is it mostly like if you read something, you retain it immediately? It's like that. That's lucky. That's lucky, especially with learning lines and things like that. Well, and I think that's why, because I learned lines through my whole developmental time. But I knew who I was based on the reaction I got from my audience. That was how I developed an identity.

And so when I didn't have a reaction from an audience, I had no idea who I was. So I was constantly seeking an audience, you know. Me too. Me too. It was like I just, I didn't feel comfortable being me. So when people saw me in a show or something, they'd be like, oh, you were really funny. I'm like, oh, great, I'll just continue being someone else. Right. Next one, next role. What is it?

What is it? And that lasted, I mean, for a long time. I don't think it was until the last 10 years, I started really digging deep and finding out, you know, why I have these issues and why I need attention or why I crave an audience. What caused you to even start digging deep? Because some people don't ever ask this question. Well, it's just more about not relying on. success like not defining success as something uh like being an actor for instance like being someone who

you know is revered by many or people you know you have fans and adoring fans and it's like oh i i like this i like this and it's like i feel like i never got the unconditional love maybe and so i was seeking it elsewhere and i think that you know unconditional love is sustainable but the attention it's it comes and goes and it's empty it's like a colander right it empties and it refills and it empties and it's like this constant need for acceptance that I'm good enough so you know about 10 years ago maybe 15 years ago I started working on that and it helped it just I I explored my youth I explored who I was as a kid and you know things that I always felt less than and did you ever go through that all the time all the time

I mean, I saw the world is in a casting room. Do you know what I mean? So it was like everything was hierarchical. There was always somebody better and always somebody worse. And I needed to figure out where I landed within that hierarchy in order to feel safe. And I was so ambitious because the higher your number on the call sheet, the more validation you got, the more people wanted to see you and wanted you to be around. And the more valuable you were in my experience. and so there was just like this intense competitive edge you know and I I mean that was you know

really like that longing and that emptiness was what pushed me into what ended up being the cult that I ended up kind of doing crazy life altering things in but but yeah and then it wasn't until um every so my whole life people were like oh you're so lovely oh you're so smart Oh, you're so nice to be around. Oh, you're so funny. Oh, you're so this. Oh, you're so that. And so everyone's expectations of me were like fantastic.

You know what I mean? And I was like, great. I will live into that. You tell me who I need to be, whether it's through a script or through your perception of me. And I will absolutely fulfill that. But there was like a hollowness within that because none of it was calibrated to me and what I wanted. You didn't feel it. Well, I wasn't there.

I was a shell that was presenting as a person to the world. right that was receiving me and then when I got in trouble and my life changed and there were all these horrible things that were being said about me some totally earned some really difficult and and I don't necessarily think fair but some a hundred percent valid and fair and all of a sudden I was like oh I don't want to be any of those things so if I don't want to be any of those things who am I you know and there was this complete decomposition of my identity and this moment of like limbo moment years of limbo in who am I and then being in very strange and different unique environments like prison like a jail cell like the back of a paddy wagon and like a

courtroom you know like the center of a paparazzi huddle like like house arrest, where I was like, I'm still myself, but I'm waking up looking at a cinderblock wall. So last year, I was myself, and I was waking up looking out onto fields of lavender in the south of France. And this year, I'm waking up looking at a cinder block wall, but I'm still myself. So what is that? Who is that? And if I don't calibrate to your expectation or your idea or what you want, then I guess I need to calibrate to my expectation. And who I want to be and what I want. And that doesn't change, regardless of if I'm in a prison cell or if I'm teaching in a

classroom or if I'm sitting and talking to Michael Rosenbaum or hanging out with my husband, that there's an integrity that is consistent. But it was like the bullshit was burned off of me through the crucible of my experiences, if that makes sense. Yeah. The shame, the guilt, all these things just, I guess, ripped you apart and, like, shedded your skin in a way. Totally.

And it was like rebirth, you know? Yeah. I mean, you hope, right? I mean, that's the goal. That's the goal. Yeah. Did you deal with depression or anxiety as a kid? Not that I would have been able to identify.

I was a pretty happy kid, but I was also very encouraged to be a happy kid. You were a happy kid. I was a happy kid. I was a happy kid. They didn't push you in acting. You wanted to do it. No. I mean, but it's complicated, right?

Because when you had the personality type that I had, I wanted people to like me. Yeah. We all do. And so my mom, super innocent, had no idea what the industry was like. We were an artsy family. We were living in L.A. Why not?

My daughter's cute. Let's put her in commercials, you know? And so then I start that. And then, well, maybe she should try an acting class. So then I do that and I love that. And then I get all these, this praise. And so I was a super happy kid. I wanted to act.

I wanted to be in acting. But it was very polluted because the industry is really polluted and dysfunctional and is not a place for kids to be. It's a very utilitarian industry. Like it's all about function. You come here to do a job. Your job as an actor is to be incredibly vulnerable and share your intimate self with the world. And then we'll love you, aka pay you. praise you, validate you or whatever in exchange for that. And then you are on your way. So I think

that my mom never pushed me. She supported me, but she never pushed me. But I got caught in the web of the business. And I think the more dysfunctional negative aspects of the business at a really young age and then just kind of grew up in that. Yeah. Do you think that that need for attention and all that kind of equated into what inevitably happened? What inevitably happened? Yes, I would say less than need for attention and more the need to be great. Like I needed to be the best at whatever I was doing.

But it wasn't a power thing to you. What, the attention or the greatness? The attention, the greatness, all that. I wasn't like seeking power, but I won't lie and say that power didn't feel good. Right. And I definitely feel like that's something that I, you know, when you're on house arrest for three and a half years and then you're in prison for two years, you spend a lot of time thinking about what happened and how you got to where you are and what you did. And, you know, I, I can't say you, I, yo-yoed back and forth between I'm the worst human being on the planet.

I'm all these awful things. I'm horrible. I, you know, devastated and da-da-da-da. And then I would go back and I'd be like, well, no, I'm also like, I had good intentions here. And I wanted to do this here. And I'll look at my journals and be like, I was thinking this here. So I don't think I'm horrible. And it was this dance back and forth of accountability and justification and confusion until finally you settle into, okay, I'm a human being who has dark and light. I got caught up in a really messed up situation with really powerful people who had incredible ways of manipulating people over long periods of time. And what did I do that I need to sit with in my conscience for the rest of my life so I don't do it again? Right. And what did I do that I can forgive myself for? And then with that

knowledge, you move ahead hopefully with wisdom and try and do better on the other side. Yeah. And one of the things I definitely contend with on a regular basis is like, how did I objectify people to the point where I thought it was okay to take away their autonomy? Like how did I get to a point where that was something that I thought was okay? And how did I get to a point where I thought it was okay to feel in power of people? Right. How did I get to a place where I lost my...

It's like feeling like, you know, I don't know if it's a notion or whatever, but good people sometimes do very bad things. 100%. I have a really hard time with the idea of good people and bad people. I work with people now in prison who have done really horrible things. And I would not say that they're bad people. Right. And I know that I have done really bad things.

And I don't believe I'm a bad person. So I believe that there are different psychological things that are happening in people's brains that I don't totally understand because I'm not a psychologist yet. Sociopaths, psychopaths, mirror neurons broken down, things like that that make empathy difficult for people. But I just don't know if I inherently believe that people are either good souls or bad souls. I don't think you're born. I mean, sometimes people are born with mental illness. Right. And so a lot of times they don't have a choice.

the inside of their brain looks completely different than ours it doesn't make it okay but it's you know it's it's tough it's hard to sort of make that analysis on people that you know especially like i i knew you and you were nothing but a pro and fun to be around and doing fun things and had your friends and on set it was so when people asked me i i was like i don't believe it i can i believe it. And I like, could you believe? I mean, she was like me in a way that she always needed attention. But I, I, this is shocking. Inside of you is brought to you by Wayfair. I love this place. You could see if you're watching this beautiful table I got from Wayfair for such a cheap price that it's almost criminal. Wayfair is the place to shop for all things. Everything from sofas to

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Shocking. It was shocking. It was shocking. It was like how do you get there? And so when I watched the

the documentary the first episode I remember sitting there and I looked at my buddy I go fuck I joined this because it was about self-help and it was a it was a positive thing and it was like giving you confidence and all these things and people wanting to be better and that's what I and obviously it took a dark turn and things started to happen so I guess where do you remember where it started changing for you or were you unaware where you think you were a little I mean my god it went on for I was involved in for 12 years 12 years you know and stuff didn't start to get really dysfunctional and illegal until like the eighth or ninth year that I was involved so it was like a very stereotypical now that I look back on it grooming process that happened over a period of time and you know I unfortunately have also been in an abusive relationship and you know you it was a it was a different form of an abusive relationship where you make a decision to justify something that is a big deal at the time, but you're like, oh, okay, I can figure out how to make this okay in my head. And then

that becomes okay and normal. And so then the next thing that happens, that's extreme, you justify and figure out how to make it okay and normal. And then all of a sudden, you're like doing something totally different than what you ever expected yourself to do. But it happened incrementally over time. and you don't notice it. It's incremental. So you're saying it's incremental. It's subtle, subtle. So these things are starting to evolve.

And it's bigger than you are. 100%. And I mean, in Nexian, you're dealing with a person who is, I don't know what his psycho, I don't know, I wouldn't pretend to psychoanalyze Keith Reneery, but he is really good at manipulating people, as evidenced by the people that he manipulated

in the cults you know these were not stupid people these are not people that didn't have resources these were intelligent well-resourced people and that's what i noticed too in the first episode that i was watching yeah who were who were longing for something that he said i can help you with and then he gave just the right amount of help to get you to believe that you needed him to be good to do what you wanted to do in your life to heal yourself you invested a lot of time in this 100% and the return on the investment there were positives right so you're like well this was good and i feel better here so okay i'll justify doing this other thing you know it wasn't like it was all dark and all bad and all abusive like at the gate right it was it was great and then it was

not great right did you see people leaving at a certain point did that concern you like oh they're they're leaving. Was there any kind of talk like why they were leaving or? There were, there was, there was always a justification. There was always like, oh, well, it's because of this person's psychodynamic and this fear that they came up against that they just weren't able to get past. It was that growth just wasn't that important to them. It was that they couldn't. And that's coming from Keith. Keith and, yeah. Right, right. And then all, and then everybody. You know, it starts with Keith. And then every and then it's this, it's a cult, right? So it's this insidious, little community where everybody stays connected to each other and everybody's reinforcing the

belief system that everybody has. And then you get in so deep that you're like, I mean, and that was the problem that I really came up against, you know, which is why I would say it took me a year to really come to terms with what had happened because if I recognize that I was wrong and that everything that we were doing was for bad things, not for good things, then I have to attend with the fact that I did some really bad things. And what does that mean about me? The thought of prison always terrifies me. Like, oh, my God. But, like, when you were speaking to these prosecutors and FBI agents and all these people, how many hours collectively did you talk with them? I don't even know. Are we talking 20, 30, 40, 50 hours easily? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

it was walking through the gates of hell. It was horrible. Were they ever aggressive? I mean, like, the wire aggressive. No, like, like, you need to say this. You need to tell us. There, yeah, I mean, there were, you know, and it was difficult because I was still figuring out what had happened and was still kind of trying to understand. I mean, you think it's confusing for you on the outside. Imagine being the person who's living it. Like, I was like, what happened to me, you know?

What is going on? And so, yeah, there were moments during the, it's called proffering. So when you decide to cooperate with the government and give them information about your former code defendants, they spend time with you. Part of it is them testing to see if you could testify, if you would be a good person to go on the stand. And another, a bigger part of it is just getting the information from you that they can use to prosecute. Did you ever take a lie detector? No. No, they didn't ask you to do that.

They didn't ask me to do that. But there, I mean, you feel, I just felt crazy, you know, and there were so many moments when I first came home on house arrest, when after I first got arrested, I would just wail in my bedroom, my childhood bedroom and just say, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. How were your parents reacting? Were they really supportive? Yeah. I mean, my mom, my dad has dementia. So my dad was, thank you. So my dad was. So my dad was. was, you know, doing the best he could. Yeah. My mom was incredible. You know, my mom still makes me cry.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my mom and my, I would say 90% of the people in my life stopped communicating with me, whether it's because they couldn't get to me or they didn't know what to say or it was too scary or the betrayal was too deep, whatever it was. I stopped talking to 90% of the people in my life. And so it was really just like my mom and a couple of my clients. closest friends and my sister. And they really kept me together. Like they created a shell

around me so that I could liquidate and then reform. And my mom just went to a place where she was like, I just need to love her. I'm not going to like try and force therapy on her. I'm not going to try and change her mind. I'm not going to try and, you know, have any type of intervention with her. I just need to love her. And that's what she did. And that's what my community did. And that's what saved my life. Did you think in the beginning when you're going through all this, I don't know, interrogation or whatever, did you feel and your lawyers feel like I'm going to get a lot more years than what I ended up getting?

Like, were you ready to go to prison for 15 years? 22. I was looking at 16 to 22. And you were, I don't know if you could say I was ready, but you were like preparing yourself? I no I don't I never I've had prepared myself for five years I said I can handle five years and I'm like a planner you know I'm like very part of my like I have to do really well in everything I do doesn't didn't go away just because I was on house arrest and looking at prison time I had like if I get sentenced to house arrest then I will do this with my future. If I get sentenced to one year, then I will do this with my future. And I had planned that out up to five years. And so when the judge said 36 months was my sentence of incarceration and then 36 months of probation,

I was like, I can do that. I have that plan in my head. I have that. I couldn't wrap my brain around 16 to 22 years. That was too much for me to consider. So I didn't. I just didn't. What is prison like?

I mean, I think it's important to make distinctions because a lot of people think of prison and they think of, like, state prison, which is very different than federal prison. And a lot of people think of prison and they think of either Orange is the New Black, which is something called camp, which is not where I was. I was inside the fence. So they cuffed us any time we went outside the fence and there was barbed wire and we had something called controlled movement where you can only move every hour in one direction on the compound. locked the doors behind you. But I also wasn't in maximum security. So there were no locks on our actual door. You weren't around murderers. I was. I was. You were around murderers. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And yeah. But it wasn't federal, because I was in a federal institution, because it was a federal crime. Federal institutions are notoriously like quote unquote nicer. There wasn't, there's

something in prison called politicking. And politicking is very like racially motivated and it involves gangs. And so there's a lot of like social hierarchy and rules and violence and things like that to keep those rules in place. There, there isn't really that in the federal system. So you didn't have to join forces with certain groups? No, no, no. I was really lucky for a number of reasons. So all of that to say, my prison experience, I think, is different in certain ways than other people's prison experiences or than the prison experiences that we see on television. I teach in prisons now and I work with a lot of men who have sentences of life without parole and things like that. And so that experience and

that dynamic is different than the one that I had. I had very deeply held belief that there were good people and bad people and that bad people went to prison and that was how we stayed safe. So if I was going to prison, that meant that under that assumption, I had to accept, I'm a bad person. And I couldn't accept, I'm a bad person. I just couldn't accept that as true. And so I was like, okay, then that means that there are going to be good people in there. So that's one fear that started to dispel. Yeah. And then, but then the other fear that was very present was, am I going to have to, I'm not violent? I've never hit anybody in my life. I mean, I used to cry when I had to do stunt scenes and hit the stunt guy, you know? Like, that's not my jam. And,

And so I was like, I don't know how to fight. I don't know if there's going to be sexual things that are going to be advancements made on me that I'm not going to know what to do with. I don't know if I'm going to get taken advantage with or extorted for money. Like, I just didn't know what to expect because I did have these prejudices. And none of that happened? A hundred percent the opposite. Wow.

A hundred percent. Do you still have friends in there that you consider friends that you still talk to that are still there? I don't speak to anybody inside because it's against my probation. Right. I'm on probation until next year, so I'm still under, I'm technically on paper, is what they call it. And what is that probation? What can you not do? Can you travel? No, I can't leave the county without permission. Um, I have a monitor on my phone and on my computer. So they keep track of who I talk to and

They listen in? I don't know. I don't know. But they have the right to. I'm not going to do anything. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I believe. I'm in, I am rehabilitated and I will always be in the process of being rehabilitated. I think I'll be in therapy forever. But I very clearly understand what happened and that it was wrong. So I'm not concerned that I'm going to not do that. But I do have friends inside that I would like to get in touch with when I'm off probation because they're really good people who deserve support.

Were you suicidal at all? I had moments of suicidal ideation. I had one moment where I was hiding in Mexico when Keith had first gotten around. That's a whole other thing. I remember seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was staying in a penthouse apartment by myself for two weeks.

And I didn't know what was happening. And I went out on the balcony and thought I could jump and this could be over. You really thought about it. But then I was like, but then I wouldn't know. know what happens next and I want to know what happens next and I it'll be different tomorrow so I need to just hang on through this because it'll be different tomorrow and then when I came home it was really hard for a couple of years it was really hard how so um coming to terms with what had happened was just like outrageously painful um coming to terms with the fact that I might be convicted of a sex crime

which meant that I was a sex offender for the rest of my life, might have to go to prison for 22 years. You know, like all of these realities were surfacing that were just like so heavy and dark and painful. I had a hard time. I had really betrayed my brother and his family, and so I didn't know how to fix the situation with my brother. That was really painful.

Losing 90% of my community was really painful. We had paparazzi outside my parents' house. so I couldn't go anywhere without getting chased for really negative reasons and that was really painful. I was flying back to New York on a regular basis, dealing with my lawyers and eventually the prosecutors and all of that was really painful. Like there was just, it was so heavy. And I would have moments where I felt like I don't know that I can carry this anymore. And then I would think if I kill myself, I'm going to hurt my mom so bad. I can't do that. So I didn't.

Yeah, man, that's heavy. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice, yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other every day.

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100%. 100%. 100%. And what red flags, if you look back now that you might not have noticed because you were in the thick of things, would you make people be aware of not to make sure they? this and this, if it's a self-help, is there anything you can do? Yeah. I mean, first of all, people would, I, like, I'm, the mental landscape is so nuanced and delicate, and we're so flippant with it because we can't touch it and see it. But people should not be messing in your brain unless they have seven years, at least, of an education behind them, teaching them how to be careful, how to be respectful, how to allow you, your autonomy.

Like, there are so many self-help things out there now, which I think, you know, some of them are really good and are really helpful. But if somebody is insisting on getting really deep into your psyche, they should be licensed. It's just there's too much sensitivity. to our psychology that we don't take care of in the way that we should. So I think that's one big thing is like...

Knowing who you're getting involved with. Yeah, just because someone is good with a knife in the kitchen doesn't mean they should be a surgeon. Just because they're a good talker. Just because someone is good at listening or good at talking doesn't mean that they should be a therapist. So just be wary of self-help gurus

and the power that they say they have that's unregulated. I mean, there's so much regulation involved in being an LMFT or an LCSW, you know, and those safeguards are put in place for a reason so that people don't get psychologically messed with. So that's one big thing that I would say. And then the second thing that I would say is no one thing should ever consume your entire life. Right. That's taking away, taking you away from the things you love and things you love doing.

Even a relationship. If your one relationship is consuming your entire life, it's not a healthy relationship. Right. Everything has to be supplemented with something else, right? Right. And so I think anytime anybody ventures into something and all of a sudden, that is all that they're pointed towards doing financially, psychologically, time-wise, you know, everything is in that one thing. that's that's a red flag you know yeah and then too like if you're losing relationships over it it's right really important to to consider like maybe you know maybe there's a reason why these

people that I love and care about are falling away from me and maybe it's not because they're dysfunctional yeah your podcast yeah it's not my podcast it's not your podcast it's a it's a podcast that was produced by a woman um who named natalie i can't remember her last name um but um yeah it's it's a podcast that uh tells my story so it focuses on me it's my interview yeah like everything yeah yeah yeah seven episodes and she's very intelligent and very fair um and very um yeah i just think very balanced very honest i mean look this is a tough question you can answer you can not, but like, you know, when I think about, like, you know, I hear about the branding and things like that and all that stuff. I mean, is that something that you thought, oh, this is,

this is the club. This is part of it. This is initiation. This is how it's hard to like wrap my head around. Did you come up with that? No. No. I took credit for it in the New York Times article. And that actually, interestingly enough, is a part of the podcast because the woman who interviewed me for the New York Times article is a part of the podcast that I did as well. And so she has actual tape of me talking about it. No, it was not my idea. No, it is not my initials. I will take credit for the things that I actually did do and I did not do those things.

Were you branded? So I read this really interesting article about Alexei Novali's Second in Command. And Alexei Navali was a Russian man who was murdered recently by the Russian government. And he was incredibly powerful and protesting against Putin and the Russian regime. And his second in command was doing this interview with the New Yorker. And they said, aren't you afraid? And because Alexei Navali had been, you know, poisoned and was now in this like gulag and all these things. I think that's what it's called a Russian prison.

And she said, no, I'm not afraid I'm a fanatic. And the only thing that fanatics fear is disillusionment. And I read that in prison and I went, I was a fanatic. There was like, I was so deeply, I was so deeply believed that what I was doing was righteous and good and powerful and like, like transformational and profound, you know, that I mean I was living on 500 calories a day Michael yeah and I was running five to six miles every because that's what Keith wanted because that's what Keith wanted you know and working you know doing plays and like I mean I was sleeping five you know three to five hours a night so you

were sick I was so sick and but I couldn't I didn't feel any of it because the fanaticism was so present wow yeah I mean, it's such a hard thing to try and express because... Yeah. I mean, do you look back that you, when you got out of prison, the first thing you were thinking of was like, I need to really apologize to anybody out there that you were involved with and with the branding or with whatever. Did you reach out?

So I'm not allowed to. You're not allowed to. Yeah. That's part of my probationary restrictions. Yeah. But what would you say? Like, if you could say something to them. I don't know if this is the forum.

that I wouldn't want to do that on. Right. I'm not entitled to make that decision. Yeah. Yeah, I know I understand what you're saying. It's almost like it wouldn't be personal. Right. Well, and it's a private thing.

It's a private. It's a private thing. It's with them. And it's what, yeah. Their experience. And, you know, that's between you and them. Has Keith Reneery ever reached out to you since? then he's not allowed to but did he ever write you a letter did he ever reach out he wrote a letter to

all of us that were on trial uh during the like right before the trial um but i did not read it do you know what it said no probably like stay strong something like something like that you just sort like not having any part of it no do you hate him do you forgive him no i am not yet out a place where I have forgiven him because I haven't fully comprehended what he did. I'm still working on that, you know? And so, you know, Monica Lewinsky has a podcast called Reclaiming. I don't know if you've listened to her. I've heard of it.

It's really great. And she was talking about how, you know, she didn't speak about her experience until like 10 years after. And that it took a long time for her to be. able to feel angry. And, you know, when I was on house arrest for the three and a half years, I was just trying to manage figuring out what had happened and avoid 22 years in prison and a sex offense conviction. And then when I was in prison, I was just trying to survive being in prison. And I've only been, I have only been home for two years. And so it's only been two years that I've been able to

really feel safe enough to start to like get really into what happened. But I will say that listening to the podcast, because I had no hand in editing it, like I didn't, you know, I just gave the interview and then trusted that that would be what it was. And so hearing Natalie put together my story and hearing myself speak about certain things and hearing other people speak about things. It was the first time that I actually felt sad about what had gone on, as weird as that sounds.

And not that I had felt remorse because I had felt incredible amounts of remorse and guilt and so much shame for the people that I had hurt, but I had never really felt sad about what had happened for me it's a really complicated thing to be both a victim and a perpetrator um yeah and so i think i'm still working through that um and i think my feelings around keith are emmeshed in all of that as well so he's an evil man and it's good that he's not around yeah um but my emotional feelings and intimate feelings about him outside of that. I haven't fully worked through. Right.

You know, and you can't just, it's not a light switch. No. And, and there's a, you know, part of reason why I was anxious to do this podcast is because I'm in process. Yeah. And that's understandable. I think that's, you know, I, that's why, you know, it's like I talk to you about addressing the elephant in the room.

It's like, you know, if we just did a podcast, people would be listening going, you're not going to even acknowledge that. It's just like it never happened. Yeah. So it's like, I like that you're talking about it and, you know, we don't have to go deep, like as deep as I'm sure you did on the podcast. But, you know, it was important to, I think it was important for people to actually, it just interests me how your mind works and how you're dealing with it, how the story, because how you go from one thing like Smallville and Wilfred and all these great things you did and living the highlight. and getting caught up in something and turning your life around

because I know you're working in prison reform. Yeah. Right? Tell me about that because that's important to you. It is important to me. Thank you for giving me that opportunity. It's important to everyone. Yeah.

I mean, I think that our culture, we live in a very punitive culture and we live in a culture that thrives on fear. And we, I just think that we are not, not being very successful in our approach at fixing people, not fixing people, helping people heal when they've done damaging things in their lives. Our system, our prison system is not a rehabilitative system. Like having empathy.

Having empathy for people when they've made mistakes, yes, 100%. But I think even more than that, investing in rehabilitation. Like investing in actually like saying, we believe you're a good person who made by bad choices. Let's figure out why you made those bad choices and help you understand how to make better choices in the future. Instead of you're a bad person, you're scary, you're always going to be a bad person, and you're always going to be scary. So we're just going to throw away the keys and put you in a place where we don't have to think about you anymore. Even temporarily, even a year in prison, two years in prison, however many years, I believe there needs to be rehabilitation.

So when these people who are convicted of whatever get out, they have a chance to be a better person. And that's, if you just throw them out on the streets, you know, you're not fixing the problem. 100%. Well, and the truth of the matter is, you know, it's hard to get a job. Yeah. And the truth of the matter is a lot of people like, I mean, a lot of the women that I was in prison with were like, I didn't do drugs until I came to prison. Wow. I came to prison and there's no incentive to grow.

There's no incentive to get better. There's a ton of pain that nobody's helping you process. And then there's drugs that make you feel better. And some of the drugs are brought in by officers. Some of the drugs are brought in by other inmates, whatever, but they're there. And so, okay, screw it, especially if I have 20 years to life. You know, you have these 18-year-olds who are getting slammed with 25 to life, life without parole. They have no hope.

What do you expect them to do? And then now laws change and we send them back out on the street because, oh, we're going to be a more forgiving society. But you've not prepped these people to be back out on the street. And so they fail. And then it's their fault. And that there are more pieces of shit. And they feel worse about themselves. And there's more shame, which covers your conscience more.

I mean, then that's the thing, Michael. We commit crimes because we lose empathy. And empathy is sourced in conscience, which is rooted in feeling. So if you stop feeling because the feelings are too big or you don't have anybody helping you understand how to feel those feelings, you lose your connection to your conscience, which disconnects you completely from empathy. So you are more likely to do a bad thing to somebody else, right? But instead of giving people permission and support and capacity to feel more and teaching them how to feel those feelings that they need to feel, I mean, rehydrate their humanity. been completely dehydrated so that they leave with a conscience, we do the opposite. Yeah.

You know, and I felt it in myself. Like, after a year in prison, I was, I felt myself like, just like kind of angry. Disconnected. And jaded. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, I made a commitment to myself before I went into prison. I'm not going to let this break who I am. I'm not going to let this break who I am.

And I took myself for a walk on the track and I was like, why are you so angry? like why are you so jaded you're angry at the wrong people what's going on and i realized i'm just in a lot of pain my feelings are hurt because i'm constantly being told i'm a piece of shit i'm constantly being made fun of i'm constantly being put down i'm constantly being told that i'm not going to do anything with my life and that hurts when you hear that all the time you start to believe it you start to believe it and you start to hate the people who are saying it to you And so I was like, okay, I need to like intentionally cry every day so that this pain that I'm feeling doesn't turn into like this really gnarly callous that I ultimately will never be able to get off my heart. Right.

If that makes sense. It does. No, it does. And I have the privilege of having therapy and a really, really supportive family and an amazing community of friends who are also very emotionally intelligent and grounded. Right. I don't come from a family who is also a member who's also incarcerated and a mom who's a drug addict and a foster family who was abusive to me. You know, like when I was inside, there were, I would say the majority of the weekends when we had visits, I was the only person in a visiting room. So.

Wow. And life goes on. When someone has 15 years to serve, their family can't come every weekend. Life goes on. And so then you both just deal, right? So I came to these conclusions because of all these tools around me, right? The women that I was incarcerated with didn't have that. And so what, what are they supposed to do?

Yeah. To get, for you to be involved with, is it something with prison reform? Is it something you wanted to do? Was it something in the beginning, that community service that you had to do something, give back or whatever, or a combination of both? I couldn't unsee what I had seen. When I was incarcerated, I was like, from the moment that I was first arrested in New York and I was in the detention center for four days to being at Dublin for two years, I couldn't deny what I had seen, which is that these are really good people who will forever carry this scarlet letter of incarceration. and they don't have what I have, which is people who believe in them. And we don't pay attention to mental health.

We don't train our staff properly when it comes to people who run prisons. We don't have proper programming in there. And I was like, I can't, how do I come home and go back to, like, being an actor? Like, how do I come home and, like, just forget that that, that, experience happened. And so I came home and I, you know, went back to school. And then I missed acting. Hack the holidays with the PC holiday insiders report. Try this PC portcetta. Crackling, craveworthy. You gonna eat that? Who are you? I'm the voice for the next ad, car commercial. But I noticed that show-stopping roast and... Help yourself. Mmm, designed for indulgence. Precision crafted to

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I missed it a lot. And so I took a beginning Shakespeare class because I figured it's a beginning class. Nobody's really probably going to know who I am. And while I was in the class, the teacher was like, you're not a beginner. Why are you here? And I told her a little bit of my story. And she put me in touch with a friend of hers who has an organization that teaches theater arts in prison, all creative arts. We do poetry and painting. And you're doing that. And so I started teaching with them. And when I started teaching with them, I met another person there who had an organization that is like a partner

organization to that organization and he hired me on staff um so i work with that organization now and we use yeah i develop curriculum and i teach that's incredible do you think you'll ever act in movies or tv or given the chance or is it something that you're like you feel fulfilled doing what you're doing now and you're happy with what you're doing and but do you still crave the acting um yeah i really miss acting a lot i mean i just took an improv class the beginning improv class at Upright Citizens Brigade, it was a blast. It was so fun. It's really nice to act without having to worry about what I look like.

You know, it's really nice to act without having to, like, worry about whether or not I'm going to get a call back, like, just to act, like, for fun. Yeah, for fun. It's just so fun to do. And so I think that I will always have that in my life because I think it's just good for me, you know? And when I teach, we act, you know? Like, we're doing improv and we're doing.

putting together scenes and um and there's something like really lovely about that i miss working with like really good actors you know and doing really good work um and but i i don't know how to be an actor without doing it the way i used to do it you know and um i mean have you come to terms with the fact that there's a chance that people may never hire you again Yeah, I don't even think about it. But you don't think about like that. You think about I'm acting, I'm doing what I love, and they can't take that from me. Yeah.

And if something happens, great. Not even if something happens great. If something happens, we'll see. We'll see. Because my life is full right now, like really full of really beautiful and important things. One of which is Frank. Frank, my husband, my family, the work I'm doing, I'm in school, I'm getting my master's degree. you know so I I am full so if something comes along that is going to support something I believe in

or is something that I think will be good for me personally I would consider it but if nothing ever comes along I'm totally happy it actually makes my life easier because I don't have to make that decision did Frank was it difficult for him to that he sort of, was he like inquisitive, asking you a lot of questions about it? Was he unsure or was it just kind of like, hey, I love you for you and we all make mistakes? My husband has a really wild story that may be equally as wild as mine is. And that, in fact, we had both seen each other's documentaries before we met without realizing that we had seen each other's documentaries before we'd met. So he, my husband, when he grew up in South Philly in the hood and had a really rough childhood.

And then when he was 14, he joined the neo-Nazi movement. And in the 90s, that was an incredibly violent and rough time, especially on the East Coast. By the time he was 17, he had reached kind of the top of the movement in South Philly and was sort of running this sort of street gang. And he kidnapped a member of Antifa and got arrested for him. it and put in big boy prison, a maximum security prison in Illinois. And while he was in prison, he was only 17. And there were two other guys that were his age and they happened to be people of color. And he made friends with them. And that started to shift his perspective on what he was dedicating his life to. And when he got out of prison, he went back to the movement because

he didn't have anywhere else to go, but needed a job. And his friend was like, I can get you a job moving antique furniture in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. It's $300 for the weekend. And Frank was like, great. I need money. I'm 19. I have nothing. And the guy, he goes, the only thing is that the guy who is hiring you is Jewish. And Frank was like, does he know about me? I mean, Frank had a huge swastika tattooed on his neck and skinhead tattooed on his knuckles and all these things. He's like, does he know, like, who I am? And he was like, yeah, the guy says he doesn't care what you believe, just don't break his furniture. So Frank went and worked for him for three days. And the man took a liking to Frank.

He's really smart. He's very funny. You know, all these things. And the guy hired him, took him under his wing and hired him and became a mentor to him. And Frank was like, how can I? It changed Frank completely. And so he gave up the movement, gave everything up and actually completely went the other way, started a program called Harmony through hockey, which brought people of different groups of different races together through the game of hockey and then started speaking on anti-Semitism. Intolerance, traveled all over the world doing that.

Wow. Yeah. And so he was in a documentary called Why We Hate that Steven Spielberg produced in the really amazing six-part documentary series on the nature of hate. And I had watched it when I was on house arrest. And so, and Frank had watched the HBO documentary about Nexion. But we were at a dog park in Long Beach. I was with my dog.

He was with his dog. And I walked into the dog park and he was like, your dog has such pretty pink skin. My dog's a pit bull, so she has pink skin. And I was like, are you from New York? Because I heard his accent. And he said, now I'm from Philly. And I was like, oh my God, I love Philly at the art museums and the theater and all this. He's like, yeah, I'm not from that part of Philly. And I was like, oh, what pretty Philly are you from? And we just started talking. And then the next time we spent time together, I learned more about his story. And I said, have you seen the documentary series? Why We Hate? And he said, yeah, I'm in it.

And I was like, you are? And he's like, yeah, episode four is my story. And I was like, oh, my God, it is. It's you. He had a, he was clean-shaven in the dock and he had a beard when we met. Wow. And then he had the same experience when he, I told him I had been incarcerated and I was recently out of prison.

And he was like, why is this girl? How is this girl in prison? Like, was she smuggling drugs or what's going on? And he looked me up and he goes, oh, my God, no way. It's that girl from the documentary. And so when we started dating, there was all of this like it was just like known like restoration is known everything's out there yeah all the bullshit is out there and also the realization that like you can restore yourself

you can come from the darkest of darkest places and turn into something really beautiful there's always time to change change is possible even what about the tattoo does he still have the tattoo no that he got removed when he was like 20 yeah all of this racist tattoos he got taken off. I'm sure it probably was. We don't talk about it much. Yeah. So what was it like to get? I love that this Jewish guy said, no, as long as he doesn't break my furniture and then took him under his wing and then it changed him completely. Yeah, well, and then you know what's really weird? About eight years ago, Frank found out that he's Jewish. Hmm. Wow. He did a 23 and me and found out that he's Ashkenazi Jew and then has really embraced the faith. So we actually

had a Jewish wedding. That is ironic. That's insane. When you say your life is full, I know you're still figuring things out in your brain. You're still trying to come to terms with certain things that happened. Does it sometimes you wake up and you feel like it's just all a bad dream, like you think it's a bad dream? No, I used to feel that way before, before prison and sometimes in prison. There's kind of like a common prison dream where that a lot of the, women talked about where you wake up one day and you realize that that's where you are and that it's

that that it's real um but no now i mean i no i accept my life i know that this is my life i have moments where i'm like man this is hard because i lost everything you know i i i lost everything i'm and so dealing with um how hard you have to work to keep your health insurance And I mean, I have residuals, which is amazing and has afforded me a lot of freedom. But it's not what I used to have, you know? Yeah, for all those years. You were in Smallville for 10 years. Yeah.

And probably every cent was gone. Gone. Yeah. I mean, you had a house, right? I had an apartment, yeah, in upstate New York. And I, yeah. Yeah. And now I have, I do have a little home, which is mine, which I own, which is really amazing.

And, you know, it's so funny, Michael, I used to ride my bike to school when I was on house arrest. allowed to go to school while I was on house arrest. So that's actually why I went back to college was because I wanted opportunity to be out of the house. And I used to ride my bike to and from school. And I didn't have my own bike. So I borrowed my mom's bike. And I remember biking uphill to school thinking, maybe for Christmas this year I'll get my own bike. And I was like, oh my God, Allison, you used to drive BMWs that you would trade in every two years. And now you're like dreaming of having your own bike that someone gives you for Christmas because you can't afford to buy it yourself, you know? Sometimes I guess you hear when you're stripped of things,

like all these material things that you have in your life and you hear stories about sometimes it helps. It does. It's like you strip away all the bullshit. It does. And you find out, okay, this is the real me. And this is what's important. This is what's important. Yeah, I mean, I shaved my head in prison and I didn't wear makeup for the first year. Did anybody ever see a picture of that? I have a picture I can show you. Yeah. I have a picture I can show you. I have to see it. show you. You don't want to show it. I didn't want to show it on camera, but I'll show it to you offline. Did someone, one of the girls that were in there, shave it for you? Yeah. Yeah. What was her name? Pam. Well, Georgia shaved it. Pam was my bunkey at the time who encouraged

my monkey Pam was like, you'd never do that. And I was like, Georgia, get the clippers. And when you shaved it, well, I just see you sitting in this room and they're reacting and they're like, oh, you know. Yeah, she went down the middle first so that I couldn't change my mind. And it was so freeing to like, it just didn't matter. What I looked like just didn't matter. And it had mattered so much for so long. Yeah. And then it just didn't matter.

Is it still hard to think of those close dear friends that are no longer in your life still to this day? Yeah. It still hurts you. Yeah. You still want to reach out. Yeah. But you don't. No.

Yeah, not yet. Yeah. I could see. I could see how it hurts you. I could see how, you know, Well, it meant a lot when you reached out. You're one of the first people from my old life that reached out. That's the only reason I'm here, by the way.

Well, you know, we don't know exactly what goes on in someone's head and do people deserve second chances? Do people deserve to have their story heard? Do we even get to have a voice anymore? Yeah. It's not like I'm, you know, having you on the podcast so everyone can say, she's awesome. She didn't do anything wrong. See, she's good. That's not what you're here for.

It's to tell your story to show you who you are, who you have become, when you're stripped away all these things to, you know, to have hope, to have remorse, to have, you know, it's a mixed bag. And I just thought it, I thought it was important. And, you know, I didn't want to feel like you were interrogated. I didn't want to feel like, all right, why did you do this? Why did, you know. But I also think, too, Michael, like, I've. watched you throughout the years be so loving to everybody that you love and that's unique to you

and i think you should receive that because it's a beautiful thing you know and it meant more than you can know that you have been kind sorry no no so i think that just speaks to your character yeah um well like i said i'm a work in progress i think we're all a work in progress you're work in progress You're still figuring out everything. Yeah. And, you know, because it's a lot easier probably to just say, I'm done with this life, you know. But then you think about all the people that really love you or that want you around. Yeah.

And what does tomorrow bring me? And there might be something different. Something might change my life in a way. Totally. Like this prison reform and doing what you're doing. And it just seems like you're doing the right. things to have some fulfillment, to feel like I am somebody. I have something to offer. I have something to give the world. And I made a big mistake. And I see how sorry you are. And I really,

really truly appreciate you being here. It was it was honor having you here just to tell your story, you know? Thank you. And tell a part of it. Tell a part of it. There's lots. there's lots and you know i wasn't you know i'm not um what's her name barbara walters i wasn't i wasn't going to get into i was like well we'll ease in we'll talk about life and then we'll get well let's just talk about this but um no and i know you're not doing any other podcast so it meant a lot to me that you you know you decided to do this one and um all i could say is is thanks and um i'd love to meet frank sometime yeah you know yeah now that he's reformed because i am the Jew. Well, he is too. I know. Well, he's a Jew too. So there you go. You guys can be in the

Jew crew together. Yeah, we'll be in the Jew crew. If you want to get closer to the show and help keep inside of you going, well, head to patreon.com slash inside of you. Members enjoy a ton of cool stuff. Bonus, podcast, early look at new episodes and exclusive Q&As you can actually join. Some members can even make an appearance on the show. Isn't that? cool. I've already interviewed some and they're really fun. It's nice to talk to real folks, not just actory folks. And, you know, you get special shoutouts every week. There's tons of stuff. Your support really keeps this podcast alive. So jump in and be a part of what makes inside of you special.

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who already count on us and contact Desjardin today we'd love to talk business you know I just I really appreciate her truth and what she's going through And I like the fact that she's, you know, now helping other people and she's trying to do the right thing.

And she's trying to, we all have a pass. And some people's past are darker and we make mistakes. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people will lambast her. And, you know, she's a monster and this and that. Like I said, I've known her 25 years. And I never saw that side of her. And not to say it justifies anything that she did. I think this was just a conversation on perspective and I was interested to hearing what she went through and her story and I hope you enjoyed it.

Ryan, you weren't too uncomfortable? No. I mean, I'll also say it's rare that we do an intro, the day we just, we just completed the interview basically. So we're still feeling it. So I'm still like in it. Yeah. which is it was a heavy one it's a heavy one a little emotional little um she was you know she was forthcoming um you know it's obviously not everything right but it's a lot and it's enough

to give you a perspective perspective that's what it's about and i think it also speaks volumes that she uh wanted to talk to you specifically and she you guys talked about that yeah it meant a lot that she wanted to talk to me. I didn't think she would do it. And yeah, so I think that like of all the places that she could come and talk about this, I think it makes sense that she would want to come speak with you. Yeah. It was, it was kind of surreal like being in here, you know, because I've been, you know, after having not watched Smallville for 34 years of my life. And now I'm suddenly deeply engrossed in it. And then like then there's the news story about her. Then there she is. It was surreal talking about it. It was, it was

Surreal. And so I think I'm still living in the surreality of it. Yeah. And I thought, you know, before doing this, and you're like, well, will I get criticized? And then I thought, fun, I don't care. I'm having a conversation with someone and asking them to tell me their story and hear that point of view. And I think that's interesting. And I think it's human. And, you know, having known her since she was 18 and I was probably 24 or something, 25, I just wanted, I was. I was. was interested in knowing what happened what went wrong how people can look out for red flags if they're joining some you know uh self-help group or it's tough it's tough it's tough and it was hard to navigate and i just wanted to make sure i navigated in a way that was respectful from people listening uh to her to to just uh to victims to um you know sometimes people do things and you know their whole world is crushed and I think hers was and she said I want to see what tomorrow's like and we haven't talked to someone with that perspective or that experience of going to prison and being you know charged with all these things and I thought she was brave

to be here today and I thank you Allison for being here and I thank you listeners for supporting the podcast and being here today. Again, if you want to join Patreon, patreon.com slash inside of you and support the podcast. And yeah, why don't we go into the top tiers?

Let's do it. Here are the top tiers. Nancy D. Little Lisa, Yukiko, Brian H. Nico P. Rabbi, Jason W. Sophie M. Raj C. Stacey L. Jamal F. Janelle B. Mike L. Dunsopremo. 99 more. San Diego M. Santi. Kendrick F, Belinda, and Dave H, Brad D, Ray Hada, Tabitha T, Tom, N, Talia, M, David, G, Betsy, D, Rian, C, Michelle A, Jeremy C, Mr. Melski, U.N., R., Monika, Mel, S, Eric, H, Oracle, Amanda R, Kevin, Kevin, E, Jammin, J. Leanne, J. Luna, R, Jules, M, Jessica B, B, a lot of people here supporting, and, you know, they give back, and they're getting their names right out.

uh jessica b frank b gen t randy randy s claudia rachel d nick w stephan stephan stephan charlene a don g jennie b seven six angie tracy keithee keithee heather and greather le k ben b pr c sultan dave t b b tpaw g r b t paul b tpaw g g and ron rome b tis benjamin ron ron ron ron daryl and ron ron g and mark s in no particular order because you're all fantastic and from the hollywood hills in hollwood california i am michael rosenbaum uh i'm ryan teaz and i'm still He's still here. He's still here. for the way to the camera. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Be good to yourself. Obviously, we had a very successful television over 10 years. That was Superman-based.

But we had to make everyone believe that you were Clark. I got to be honest, I was surprised at the end of this episode that I wasn't. I will do. Talkville, the Smallville Rewatch podcast. I'm not sure I knew what I was filming it, that I was not me. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.