Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Ben McKenzie

Episode Date: July 21, 2020

Ben McKenzie (Gotham, The O.C.) joins me this week to talk about how the anxieties and insecurities that you may have can sometimes contribute to your appeal as an actor. Ben also opens up about what it was like dealing with early internet hate during his time on the OC compared to how social media has evolved now. We talk about the start of his relationship with wife Morena Baccarin while on set, making sense of life without the lights on, and how to fight through nerves to deliver a confident performance on set. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tables, or join a live dealer game to feel the thrill of real-time action, all from the comfort of your own devices. Why settle for less when you can go for the gold at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call Connects Ontario 1866531-260. 19 and over, physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. This is a very special episode. I don't say that often, do I? But I've been alone for months now, months on end.

And, uh, hey, they're lonely boy. That's been a lonely time. And I've been, as you know, bitching sometimes about like, Ryan, God. And I understand. It's obviously social distancing. So I make fun but kidding around because I know that Ryan can't be here. But today, Ryan is back. Come back safely.

And this is a... And merch, cheap promotion. I brought him back inside of you masks. Still available on the Inside of You online store, along with new mugs. Look at these babies. You gotta just... I mean, I don't... Right?

They're awesome. They're new colors. You know, and they're available autograph, too. Oh, wow. Yeah. I want to thank everybody out there for all the birthday wishes. I've said this before. I posted on Instagram and holy shit, man.

And this guy felt loved. Honestly, I started reading them. I took like a couple hours to read them. And I teared up. And I was like, you know, I get in my head. I get in like, you know, who really likes you? Who really loves you? I mean, come on.

You always feel like you're alone. And then you read these comments and people took the time and you're like, come on, man. You're people, some people like, yeah. And it's, I think it's important to take that in and just say, hey, this is nice. This is good. and feel it and be grateful and you know that was nice you just brought over a gift you brought some rum i got a kitty pool out back and you got me so floaty for drinks and you got me uh so you know you know i'm gonna be i'm gonna be naked in a kitty pool uh former movie star

tv star michael rosenbaum ends up in a kids mini pool oh geez oh god wouldn't that be just awesome if that's where we find i mean by the way that would be if i'm gonna go that way my friends would have a field day at the wake you know they'd be like fuck roe frozen bomb you know it sucks that he's gone but fuck you know to die in a kiddie pool i mean it doesn't get worse than they always said we always said he was a kid at heart that's right and his kid heart exploded in a pool what are you looking for my drink my water oh it's right here yeah uh yeah this is uh one of these inside of you things but that's just for just endless merch here certain patrons then but we got a great great great guest today great great great great guest

a lot of great guests coming up honestly there's some some good stuff i got just uh a text from someone I've been trying to get on the show for a long time, and he's a big comic guy, probably the biggest one of them. Again, thank you for listening to all my patrons out there who support the podcast, endless love, and that's the inside of you on patron. And the new horror patron, thank you to everybody on there who's joining us. It's a horror club. We zoom, we do these things.

It's where have all the good horror movies gone with John Heater, who's Napoleon and myself. So that's cool. nothing to really report other than you know got the online store and doing the podcast and you know writing a lot that's what I'm doing what are you doing out there I hope you're living the best life you can right now and doing the best you can and kind of I don't know

fuck it's just brutal but anyway thanks for supporting the podcast and make sure you follow us inside of you at inside of you podcast on Instagram and Facebook and at Inside of You Pod on Twitter and I'm at the Michael Rosenbaum on Instagram and you know subscribe to all your friends

do all that stuff you know how it is it really helps the show and write a review do whatever you want and thank you so why don't we do it right now why don't we get to our first guest first well you were you are sort of my first guest you know this could be the second guest you're the preamble is that prologue the prologue I think

it would be the prologue let's do this this is this was a great interview i'm not saying i was so great but this was a you know i had his wife on the show a couple months ago marina backron and i'll tell you i read a lot about ben mackenzie and it said he's he's kind of private shy he doesn't talk a lot and i got some good stuff here man and i i didn't feel like i was you know interrogating the guy ryan but it felt good it felt like you know he texted me after and said hey man said some nice things and he called me a great host whatever man it's cool but it was fun it was open he got i think you know he talks about his anxiety and talks about having just it was cool so why don't we just fucking do it let's get inside of ben mackenzie it's my point of you you're listening to inside of

you with michael rosenbaum inside of you with michael rosenbaum was not recorded in the live studio audience ben why are you in connecticut uh we rented a house to get out of the city months ago and we kind of loving it over here we're going to be here for the end of the month um i don't know new york was so crazy for so long do you like it yeah yeah it's great i can it's got like um isn't right in told you any of this probably no so you guys i would see other lessons i like this yeah we've got uh we've got uh 60 acre geez it's like it's it's gorgeous it's absolutely gorgeous and kids they're loving it well you and I have something in common I saw a above ground pool I just uh I was so hot

not like in a sexy way but I was just really just it was it's humid it's 100 degrees I just needed to dip into something and so I ordered online a pool above ground pool for, I think it was $2.89, $289. It's two feet deep. It's eight feet long. It's five and a half feet wide. My buddy Tom and Tom came over. You know, we distance. We're a mask and we built this little pool. And I'll tell you, it's one of the best things I've ever done. It's so refreshing to just take a dip in a, it's pretty much a bath. Yeah, if it's two feet deep, how do you, how does one physically how do you how do you relax and just starfish it out well guess this is pretty cool i i text uh my friends pictures of this uh pool and so for my birthday my friend stacey and how

bought me a millennium falcon raft that actually is the size of the pool so i i lie on that thing and i'm telling you it feels right i'm not even kidding around i know it sounds funny and it looks corny it's definitely not a movie star pool not that i'm a movie star but you know you think oh this guy he's done some work and he's in hollywood he's got to have a nice pool like i have an above ground two hundred eighty nine dollar pool i'm a grown man well some would say and uh that's that's how it goes uh congratulations on your birthday by the way oh thanks dude you know i felt good i you know it's really weird you know people say hey you know don't get cut up in social media don't you know obviously have a podcast and i you know you have to be a little social and all these things but

it was overwhelming. It was like just the responses. And I think if you just take, I took like an hour and just read responses and just, it was just so sweet. Everybody was just, you know, it's nice. It's nice to take a minute and go, hey, man, you know, people like you.

Some people like you. I think it's important to just take a, you know, sit back and say, hey, man, you know, because I'm very critical of myself. Are you? Yes. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I had a similar experience on,

my, that's been almost a year. My birthday is in September. But yeah, just, just taking stock and just saying, hey, something's working because some people like me. And that's nice. And usually, usually I find no matter how bad the internet is, it, it doesn't, people don't actually go out of their way to criticize you on your birthday. Yeah.

Well, happy birthday. You, you, you, you, you, you, fuck dark or whatever. I mean, some people do. Really? Sometimes. There's been people. Yeah, well, people in office, people are, you know, on their birthday things. I mean, things do happen. I don't get, you know, I don't do political stuff in this.

But, you know, yeah, look, do you get caught up in that stuff? Do you, can you read 10 great comments and all of a sudden someone says, I hate your detective Gordon and it just ruins your day? Yeah, it used to be, I think, much more that way. I remember getting really caught up in that when I first started working, which was basically the O.C., which was, you know, God, this is a long, long time ago. But I remember like, oh, I'll just, I remember the first time like, oh, I'll just go to that message board. On the, it was at that point, it was like, you go to the website for the OC and there was a message board.

And you look at it and you're like, oh, that person, oh, that's so great. Oh, awesome. Oh, this is so cool. And then one person. And I remember getting really been out of shape about it and ended up lasting for a while. And then at some point, just going, this is useless. What am I wasting all of this time and energy? And I will never be satisfied because one person's criticisms will outweigh, you know, a hundred people's positive comments.

So just chuck it and stop. Weirdly enough, though, social media, which obviously didn't exist back then, has taken off and is even more of that stuff. But I don't know why it is. I don't have a lot of people talking junk. And if they do, my only rule is just never respond to them, never talk, never take the bait of anybody because they're only going to drag you down, you know? And I will say, as hard as that is, if you stick to that and you don't respond, then you forget about it quickly. And then it's just like, you know what I mean? Just keep moving.

Like none of that stuff really registered. I mean, it never, you know, if you think about it, you take away social media, you just keep rewinding, rewinding, rewinding all the way back to your first play or the first time you're on stage. or whatever it was. And it's still that, you know, one of the other actors who you think is a good actor or somebody else and like, you know, people talk. And we always care. We always want to, we want people to like us.

We want people to think we're good. We want them to validate us. And that's where it starts. And I think that especially if you don't have a good upbringing where it's like, hey, you're good enough kid and you're loved, that can really go nuts. And that social media stuff, and by the time you get there, you're completely fucked.

And I, you know, so, I mean, you had a good upbringing, though, for the most part, no? Yeah, yeah, I did. And it was completely divorced of any, it wasn't Hollywood on any level. I grew up in Texas. Dad's a lawyer. My mom was, she's now a poet, but she at the time of, like, running, trying to run some charitable organizations. They were very, you know, they were just, they just, I think they raised us. right relatively speaking certainly wasn't anything where we I don't think we felt

over praised or under praised I think we felt you know sort of like treated like you know as long as we were doing what we were supposed to be doing broadly speaking we were we were always loved as long as we were doing what we're supposed to be doing broadly speaking we were encouraged to do it but yeah I you know because I've worked with Obviously, young people who, when I started the OCA, I had already gone to college. I was the oldest of the cast members. And I think that was also helpful for me, too, because then I had some perspective, you know.

Right. I was like, I'd graduated high school. I graduated college. I had struggled in New York for a minute. I'd come to L.A. You know, so I was in my early or almost even mid-20s by the time the show started. A little old to be playing high school students or whatever. Isn't that the story of TV?

Look at Smallville. I mean, good Lord. Welling is playing a high school freshman and Jensen's the football coach who's got a relationship with Kristen Cruz's character, Alana Lang. And it's just like, these guys are growing men, really, and Beverly Hills 902.1. I mean, that's just kind of the way it is. Totally. And I mean, it does bear some, I think it's worth noting, you know, because I think I do remember having that experience of play. This is pretty weird that we're making.

And it really was the men or the boys, what if you want to call us, were considerably older than the girls. Like Adam and I, Adam Brody and I were in our early 20s, I think we're a year apart. And Misha and Rachel were younger. And it was like, this is a weird thing that we're like perpetuating some weird stereotype of like what masculinity is supposed to look like and what femininity is supposed to look like. It's very strange. I mean, how much younger were they? Then you and Adam. I don't really remember.

I remember Misha being very young, like 17 or 18 years old. Rachel, I don't remember. I want to say she's like maybe four years younger than me or something. Maybe she was 20. I was the only cast member who had been to college. I think Adam had done a semester or something. It was like, I asked for this. I don't do this.

I want to move to L.A. and become an actor. And he'd already done like a series. And he had the most, I think he had, well, Misha had credits. and he had the second most credits. But I was the only one who had actually gone to college, gotten a degree. And not that that, not that L.A. could have cared at all about that. You know, no one cares about your growth, though. For your growth, that was important.

Perspective, that I had perspective of, you know, this is cool. This is weird. It's weird that we're on a television show that, you know, that you happen to get on a television show that happened to take off and is pushing you out there. the marketing campaign has taken over and is pushing you out a certain way. That's a weird experience. It was helpful for me to have some perspective to say,

ah, this is strange. It's okay to feel strange. It's okay to like notice that. Because I think otherwise you can get caught up in it. Oh, yeah. It can be some weird, you know, never ending quest for validation or something that like, you know, because inevitably however hot you're burning at the moment,

you're never going to stay that hot right you know what i mean the show lasts for i think that one lasted a small will last forever it was he lasted four years you know it was like it was hot and then and and you have to be able to ride that out you know you have to be able to like make sense of your life when when the lights are not on oh yeah or you're you're gonna make yourself miserable what was what was small we've actually never talked about this what was small real like in terms i'm sure you know you know we were lucky we were lucky with all this up because we were filming in van who were away from everything social media hadn't hit yet so we were like we didn't realize how big week were and that was a good thing and um you know i had done some things but i wasn't

really i wasn't famous you know oh somebody goes oh you were on that show zoe dick john jake and george or something and i'm like oh yeah or they you know uh think i was on another show and they'd sort of recognize but i wasn't but and then when that show hit i mean i stuck out like a or I'm playing Lex Luthor. I'm bald. So yeah, I mean, it was, but we were away. We were in Vancouver and constantly working. And so when I came back, I would notice. I would notice some things like, oh, this is. And I remember, by the way, you know, I was I was the oldest one in the cast besides the parents. So, you know, out of all the kids, I was 26, 27 when I got Smallville. And I mean, yeah, my life changed. But thank God I wasn't Tom's age five years earlier

or Kristen who was 18 or because I might have gone off the rails I just like you know holy shit I'm famous and I but would have I mean there were times when I think I went off the rails just in general I didn't have a good head on my shoulder even though I had I never did anything really bad I never got and I always knew this isn't the right thing to do I'm not doing that but you know I still would get in trouble like in terms of like I would do you know I did a little drugs probably I probably like I'm like questioning what I just said exactly yeah i did drugs probably right did i do drugs ben no i did some drugs i'm an urban legend we did some drugs and i had never done ecstasy before and everybody was doing it we didn't

shoot for a week and you know i got you know it's like oh my god oh my god i've never felt this good before and then i've never felt this worse in my life the next day so but i knew like hey i don't have an addictive personality like you know some people my family and my friends and So I never had that problem. Thankfully, if I did, I could be dead. Sure. But did you, do you think with the, because the OC, all of a sudden, you were like Ben McKenzie, right? Right, right.

There was, yeah, there was a big marketing campaign. There was a big marketing campaign behind it. And I just remember shooting it that summer or shooting the pilot in the spring and the series as soon as they could possibly build the sets and write the scripts that summer. And the marketing campaign came on in like August and they were super smart. They marketed it through like malls and summer festivals and stuff and got the show on before school had even started up. So when kids were still like wrapping up their summer, you know, and that like nostalgic, you know, summer's ending. We're going to go back to school, but we're starting to hang out together, you know. You've taken our family vacations and we're back like in the towns we were going to go to school.

And it just took off like wildfire. And it was weird. It was weird. It was a strange. Did you ever look in the mirror? Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Well, the image that I'll remember, and I wish I had it up, but maybe you guys can find it to put it up later,

is they took these, like, pixelated headshot things. Like, they took images that were of us, and then they totally Photoshop the living shit out of them. And mine was, you know, I was the bad boy, and so I had, like, the wife beater and the hoodie on, and I had a choker chain, which lasted like an episode or two, which was hilarious. But the funniest part about it was,

so I was like 23, 24 years old. And they pixelated a facial hair. They pixelated like they made me look like I had a 5 o'clock shadow. They added facial hair to you. Yeah, like pixelated like 5 o'clock. Okay. I looked like George Michael. I looked like me combined with George.

Michael. And it was the weirdest thing where I was like, oh, I see. I can make sense why you would do that. It's not me. It doesn't look like me at all. As you can tell from me having shaved this morning, like, I still, I can grow a beard actually, but like my, when I shave, I'm like, I look a baby. And they want to do toughen you up a little bit. Ryan, they sure they get that picture. Yeah, they wanted me to look edgy, but also metrosexually George Michael Lee in a weird way. Right. Very strange. Who was sexy. I had a great face in here. I mean, let's be. honest but did you look in the mirror where you were you sort of like when you saw that

were you like did you kind of embrace it like yeah I'm fucking I'm cool yeah I thought it was hilarious and you know I got a ton of grief for my family about it which is great like that's exactly what your family should do it was just like make fun of you and but then yeah for sure I mean then also like a cute girl would look at you and you're like yeah sure that's that's that's me hi I'm Ben where's your facial hair well it's uh it's

it's don't let's let's not talk about that uh it was it was a funny time man that's fine I mean when we were in I mean I take your point about being in Vancouver really well because we were not right we were right in LA we were right in the heart of LA and I think proudly so right

that was the whole gist of the show and and and the marketing campaign behind it and I think that you know definitely contributed to some weird times, man. Were you going out? Were you going out on the weekends? Were you going to clubs? Were you, like, giving you tables?

Ben McKenzie, we got a table for you in the back. We've got some great news, whatever you wanted to want us. Yeah, I definitely had that did do that sometimes, but I also hate spending money like that. Like, I just can't. I'm like, you want me to spend how much money for a bottle of booze that costs $50? Like, you've got to be kidding. They didn't give that to you free? Come on, Ben.

No, that would, so that's the thing is like you would always, do that thing. I'm like, well, what are we talking about? You know, so I just remember being, being the Midwestern or Southern or whatever, Texas boy in me was like, I'm not going to pop in bottles at club. Like, that's not, that's not a, it's not. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I do like free things. I'm not going to lie, but did you, do you, did you ever have, obviously, you married to one of the most beautiful women on the planet inside out by the way if you people don't know or they look at her and like oh my god she's stunning but when you meet her she's unbelievable and you know that because

you're married to her but did you ever have fans that you're like i i kind of want to go out with this fan have you ever gone out with a fan um i don't know that you know it's so interesting it's such an interesting time in your 20s when i think no one really knows who they are we're all trying to like latch on even outside of the the celebrity dumb and and the entertainment industry like your average 20 year old or 20 something year old is trying to figure out who they are and so you combine you're trying to figure yourself out they or the other person is also trying to figure themselves out so there's a lot of like not talking about those things that then get revealed you know relatively quick yeah but you're like actually

You're a fan. I didn't realize that that was the way that, okay, all right, fair enough. Like, this is, this is, I think that, that dynamic is not sustainable, right? Because then it gets this, it's, you know, it's not a, a, it's not a level playing field. You know, there are all these assumptions that are being made on behalf of, you know, whoever you might be spending time with that are not usually borne out by the truth. the main assumption being that you're cool somehow that you're somehow like they think you're cool and you're always like I'm not as cool and you're going to see that I'm never as cool as any role

I've played ever ever I'm not as rich as they are I'm not as smart as they are I'm definitely not as cool as they are but I will say Jason Priestley his wife they've been married forever they have kids what a relationship she was a fan I believe no way I believe she was a fan and they fell in love. So it does happen. Yeah. I'm not saying it couldn't work. I should have been that.

I'm just saying it never worked for me. It always felt like weird. But I think there's a thin line between like fandom and like, oh, I like, I dig what you're doing. I like what you're doing. I respect what you're doing. And, you know, I mean, there's not, it's not a black and white thing necessarily. I mean, obviously, Marina, a huge fan of my work, obviously.

That's why we're together. Of course. By the way, let me jump into that real quick. You're on set. When was it? It was it day one where I'm just going to be the voice of Ben McKenzie's mind. There was a show called Inside Herman's Head where you could hear all the voices. Yeah, love Inside Herman.

Love that show. Now, when you saw Morena the first time was the inside voice going, holy shit. She's beautiful. Or did it take sort of time before you guys? Was it very professional? was it very, I'm sure it was professional, you're professional, but when was the moment

where you're like, huh, I can't get her out of my head or she can't get, you at her? I don't know when that happened. Exactly. I do remember the first time I saw her, which was she was cast very quickly in the middle of the first season because the construction of the show was that I was supposed to be with

Barbara Keene. James Grown said to be a Barbara keen all the fanboys out there like yeah of course we know all about this but it was weird it just didn't quite it didn't quite work because they'd set a Barbara to be this rich girl

who lived in you know Penn House in Gotham City and but Gordon was supposed to be the every man and it just didn't quite have the romantic pop and pop yeah and it was through no fault of Aaron Richards playing the character and they ultimately did

what they should have done, which is turned forward into a villain, and that's where she went. And that's that, that tension sort of underlayed their relationship moving forward. But they needed a new, a new object of affection and a real romance that could sort of like underpin the show from a, from a romantic standpoint. So, so she was cast. I remember it was like October. Yeah, I remember what day it was exactly. It was October 22nd. and for reasons that it'll become clear soon

and it was raining it was a miserable day we were shooting in like some pretty rough area of the Bronx I want to say raining cats and dog we were inside thankfully but she showed up for makeup and hair tests

and maybe some camera tests because she was going to shoot the next week for some reason they needed her that day in order to get everything right and I was filming some other stuff and basically the executive the producer conspired.

He told me that she wanted to meet me and talk to me, and he told her that I wanted to talk to her. Anyway, I was in my trailer, and I got a knock on the door, and I opened it up, and she's standing there in the rain. And normally you would think, like, oh, romantic, like, but instead it was just a drenched rain. She looked like something was wrong. Something was clearly wrong.

And I was like, I mean, other than just her being, soaked and I was like oh come in and come and come in and we had a little small talk but there's something going on I was like you know you don't mind me asking like are you okay and she was like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and she did that thing I'm rain and you know tough tough she's sort of like she's tough she's tough she's sort of like she's fine fine fine fine fine fine fine you're like what happened like my mom died or something you're like whoa okay no she would no no no no sorry yeah I know since her mom is alive alive and well Vera set up in Brazil uh she she she goes yeah

Yeah, no, it's just, it's my son's birthday today. And I was like, oh, oh, my God. You flew out on your son's birth? Oh, my God. Yeah, they're like, they needed me today. And I was like, oh, man, I'm so sorry. How old is he? And I'm thinking, I'm assuming he's, like, of a certain age.

And even though she's very young, I'm like, he's one. I was like, I'm sorry, you missed your son's first birthday because you had to be here. Why did you say that, Ben? But you're rubbing it. No, no, I know. No, no, not. He was a tworily. Like, I can't believe that you do that. No offense. Of course. I mean, Warner Brothers, God love you. Like, seriously, you couldn't let her have a day? And she's clearly heartbroken by it. And she, she had, she went back to, uh, she flew out that night to go back to be with him for the for his party. But it was this like very human moment. It was just a very human moment. So that's how it started. It didn't, nothing started. But it started with she's a human being. a human being she she is actually a deep discomfort but sucking it up to do a job which i thought was like you know both sort of tragic but also commendable right like she's she's she's she's doing what she has to do to to to to do her thing um so yeah that's how that's how sure i don't

remember the exact uh you know ends and outs of the rest of it i mean you you had never been married before no i mean have you lived with women before so so not only how you not lived with women a woman a woman never been married so this is all brand new boom you eventually move in together you have a kid and you get married i mean this is life changing how old are you uh let's see i guess i would have been about 35 i guess 35 years old were you were you ready for this or were you were you thinking were you trying to act confident and going, yeah, this is going to be great. I'm so ready.

And then at night, you're just having anxiety. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I think they're all different kinds of guys. But there's certainly, I don't know if you can relate to this. Probably, I'm sure, probably not. But, you know, you get to a, well, look, you get to a certain age. And you're like, dating is super fun when you're in your 20s. And in your 30s can be cool.

But it can also start to be a real drag at a certain point. Kill me now. Yeah, seriously. dude, come on. Go on. I'm here. I'm listening and I'm absorbing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was definitely in that category that time I met her where I was like, all right, not, don't really feel like I have a lot of energy here to like try and find the one after, I mean, I was in LA for 13 years prior to being in New York and I found dating in LA really challenging. Not that I didn't meet some wonderful women and form some great relationships,

but difficult climate I felt to date in. And New York, I was working so hard. It was that first year of the show, and as the lead of the show, like, I was shooting every day. And so I had no time to do it. But behind that, I was definitely ready in the sense that I was sick and tired of not having anyone to share this stuff with. Like, I was like, you climb a hill,

then you climb another hill and another hill, and you're getting up on these higher and higher hills and you're looking around. There's no one to like, hey, this is cool. I'm on top of, look at where we get. Look at where I got to. Look at where, right. And there's no one there.

And you're like, oh, this is kind of lonely, actually. Was that my experience. No, it's an, look, it's an amazing thing. I just think, you know, and by the way, working together, you know, uh, have you, in your, in your past, like, it's got to be different. I mean, do you always, have you dated a lot of actresses? And you feel like, you know, this is like, it's nice to date someone who's actually making money too. Right.

You know? Yeah, exactly. I, I, you know, definitely had dated actresses. I dated non-actors. I think at the time I'd basically given up, you know, in terms of like trying to find someone serious and I just wasn't really trying to trying very hard. And I never, I think if you had told me, you know, prior to meeting her, like, oh, you know, you should be with an actor. I would have said, I think I probably shouldn't. I think that would probably have that idea.

But, you know what I mean? For all the reasons that we can go into, and most of our self-explanatory, you know, yeah. But with Morena, I felt like, you know, it's someone who stands in her own two feet, who provides for herself, but is also not easily threatened, is not easily like, you know,

there's a lot of things that go into two actors being together. and there's all I remember somebody saying this to me a long time ago that two actors careers are never moving at the same speed in the same direction at the same time like we're all our careers are always on these like crazy rollercoastery things and so then you have two of them and it's like this you know and so that you've got to find if you're going to do it

with somebody else who happens to be in the same line of work you've got to find someone who's like self-confident enough to not get angry when you're getting too bad or or take it personally when you get sensitive about that you know what I mean like we both have to have yeah that can't be that that's got to be real difficult because you know you know you're going to do a new project and then she's now she's maybe not working which is by the way it's back and forth or she's doing the movie that just came out with Gerard Butler and maybe you're not so there's this ebb and flow and this kind up and down thing and then

well I'm watching the kids I'm tired I'm and there's a sort of there has to be an open dialogue and I assume because I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about Ben because I look at me I'm 48 for God's sakes and I have no one I don't even have a fucking engineer in this room working with me

Ryan damn it you uh you know look man there's days in which I which I envy your life but but but you're right that there are there's this constant you know it's a partnership right on a certain level not to be i don't find that unromantic to call it that i think that's sort of like part of like the main thing it becomes as you get as you get older is you just we're not not that we're super old yet but like even in a few years

that we've been together or married i you know you just like you you you are constantly in the process of figuring it out figuring out day to day how it's going to go who's going to take care of the kids who's going to get this thing done in our shared life while also having time for your own thing and and it's like it's full on you know college did you right boy what's that college done you right boy but i look at you ben and you're i say this to certain guests because i'm like wow it just seems like you have your shit together do you have you ever dealt with anxiety or depression or things like that oh yeah Oh, definitely, definitely.

I get, and Morena will attest to it. Like, I get major anxiety. I have depression runs in my family to a serious degree. And I suffer from it at times. I don't, I try not to take medication. I don't find medication like the antidepressant super helpful, you know. I'm very wary of them. But yeah, you know, I think.

it's very difficult to kind of what you're saying right is like the very things that make you dynamic on screen that make you desirous of of more jobs and more experiences where you can do different things with with sort of your talents i mean this in the generic you not you specifically are the things are the things that that that also make you anxiety written and and depressed at times and you know what I mean and and it's impossible to to separate those two things and you question whether you would even want to if you could right if you could take that part out maybe you wouldn't maybe you'd be boring as sin on screen maybe you would be a really bad actor that's true what do you do because a lot of you know my my guests I think this shows become what it is because I think um It's become something else that I didn't anticipate, which was more about, you know, talking to a, you know, human beings talking and seeing what makes each other tick, but also how we face adversity, what we do in certain situations and everybody's different. So what you say you do to help maybe control your anxiety without, as you say, medication might help someone out there who goes, all right, I don't want to take medication. What does Ben do? Maybe I'll try that, you know.

So what is it you do that maybe keeps things in check? sometimes. Yeah, and I should say I have a fear of being, I have a fear of being on medication, strong antidepressant medication. That is not mean it doesn't work for other people. And without revealing people who they are, I have people very close to me in my life who are on medication and it's wonderful for them. And I think quite frankly, they don't think they could, they could operate without it so I am not saying to people who for whom it does that works should not do it or shouldn't be open to it you know especially if they have the right doctors who are we're advising them for me it's it's it's a lot of what you you do I mean it's it's it's or what it sounds like

you do is like you know it's getting I'm most depressed when I'm sitting inside on my phone or on the computer and obviously nowadays it's pretty hard to uh to not get that way given the news cycle so get out get some exercise take a walk um talk to a friend um you know get out of your own head man and just get into to to and i will say it's hard with kids because kids need constant attention and constant love and support but it's also great because kids snap you out of that pretty quick right like you can't you can't exist selfishly with children you know know and look yourself in the mirror and think that you're even a halfway decent parent because you have constantly have to like our kids are young our kids are six and four you have to like

feed them and you know clothe them and like play with them and teach them like you know there's all that stuff so that has just been super super help julius and francis yeah julius and francis do you do you feel like if you ever like with your kids go uh i just have to do this because i don't want end up someday being called a bad dad like I'm doing this because I just as much as I love them I'm doing it because I don't want to look like a bad father I feel like I would do that a lot like I'm fucking doing this because I don't want you 20 years going you didn't do that not only is that like perhaps the majority of parenting is this doing things out of the sense of like parental guilt or future parental guilt but but they also know that too like I feel like that a certain

point early, like crazy early on. They're like, oh, I thought I can guilt them into doing this. Like, my daughter is so good at it. She's such a little, like, she knows that daddy's a softie and for her. And so she's like, you know, she's for, so she's like going through a natural progressive progression in her development, but which is basically, basically, there's a lot of screaming, but, um, and crying, but, but, but, but, but it's also like, oh, my daddy, please, if I just get that, that one episode of Paul Patrol or rescue riders and like I promise all few good you know and and at a certain point you know most of the time I just accede to it and I actually wins but at a certain point you got to like draw a line or shows to do it endlessly like it'll never stop

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and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum in the survey so they know I sent you. you don't wait download the rocket money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show inside of you with michael rosenbaum rocket money do you guys read lines to each other or is that weird yeah we have done yeah for sure is it weird do you feel like uh it's almost you're

more nervous reading to her than you are like on set yeah i'm not i'm not great with her and of course she is not phased by it she's so like practical and level-headed and you know she'll have an audition that I'll be helping it with and I'll hear myself when I say to her it's so like no what about this try it this what about here you know and like stuff that would super offend me if she was saying it to me and she's like okay yeah and she just like sorts it through logically she's like no I don't agree with that but okay I'll actually like that idea all right let me try it and she does it and it's like already you know better than it was before and it was already good and she just so like takes her ego out

of it so easily and I am I just can't do it I'm like by the way she saved she saved me I think you know when I was directing my little raunchy comedy back in 2013 or 14 or whatever and uh she comes to indiana to do this little move 700 600000 dollar comedy she's the lead with me and she she knows I'm exhausted I'm directing every scene I'm in every scene I'm right and I've never met someone who's just so kind and got it and goes I'm here for you whatever you need let's go Yeah, this is awesome. You know, I saw an interview with you, and you talked about getting the role of Detective Gordon. And it was what made me think of this interview was when I got Lex Luthor, people asked me the questions like, did you watch Gene Hackman?

Did you do the research? What did you do? And I thought, oh, this is kind of like, you know, I know that you were playing him younger, though, like before, right? It's the earlier years. So were you putting a lot of stress on yourself because you knew the fan base was so huge? and well sure for sure but that's like such a such a like vague pressure to put on yourself like don't fuck this up how how how what's the specific thing you know what I mean and so you you the way I work is you definitely stress out about it definitely like just freak out and then you

go okay well so that's like that's probably undergirding everything for like multiple seasons so it's certainly the first season but but then you go all right well how do I channel this into something mildly productive and then you go it's actually a great scenario and and i will say my conversations with bruno heller who created gotham you know who sort of the way the way this happened is the year prior to gotham bruno and i did a pilot for cbs which never got picked up um it was me and mandy more actually oh she's so sweet she's awesome she's a doll uh and we hit it off Bruno and I the pilot didn't go

but I was under a deal at Warner Brothers after that and unbeknown to me Bruno was writing Gotham and they had sold it and he called me you know the following like January or February the following year and was like hey I wrote this part you know with you in mind

like take a look at it and I was like that's cool like that's no one's ever written apart for me ever or or since perhaps more telling but like you know so I read it and I was like wow yeah this is you know

it was hard to argue against how cool the idea is so much so that and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves you might even do the same idea again if you wanted to to do a cop show set in Gotham City you could do it again even after you've done Gotham

do you know about this? No okay so what was cool about it was was the Bruno talked to me about how in some senses you sort of are free of doing some

you know Commissioner Gordon copy whether you're copying old men or or whomever because you're just seeing him in a completely different chapter of our lives I mean you're seeing a rookie police detective Jim Gordon so he's

in his late 20s maybe you know even though I was in my mid-30s people saying where's this English accent? Wasn't he like Gary Oldman? Look, I'm the... No, it's funny.

Well, what's funny is that Bruno and Danny Kanna, who directed the pilot, was our other main EP besides John Stephen, both English. Like, so they both talk actually like Gary. And I think Danny even, Danny even knows Gary and, like, play soccer. You used to play soccer with him.

Yeah, no, I mean, it just felt like, look, we're doing something completely different. And, and quite frankly, I mean, as good as Gary Oldman is, and he is pretty phenomenally talented and successful, you know, what he was doing in the movies is so different than the role that Gordon needs to play in the series because Gordon in the series is the focus of the show

and needs to play that, you know, in my opinion, always felt like, and this is definitely, I think, what... I think Bruno would agree is, like, needed to be a little bit of that every man, needed to have a little bit of that, you know, kind of chip on his shoulder, you know, young guy in a big, bad world, not beaten down yet. To have somewhere to go. Do you have an arc?

To have somewhere to go. Yeah, yeah. And ironically, you know, what I loved about it, the thing that I loved about it from a character journey standpoint is most of the time, in most series, you see a character succeed and succeed and succeed and, like, their arc just think they overcome, they have obstacles to keep overcoming them and overcoming out of their way to, you know, fulfillment. right like you could argue maybe even like like um you know wellings character in small bill right like he's slowly going to become Superman but here not only is our guy not becoming a superhero he's literally just a flesh and blood man he as he ascends up the arc of the police you know hierarchy the city falls apart the city like descends into anarchy and has to like more and more in order to necessitate Batman

in order to necessitate what we're ending with which is that there is a Batman. So it's like he's going up as everything else is falling apart which I think is such a cool you know kind of inversion of the usual circumstances

so I really dug that and Bruno's pretty much genius and so he was always smarter than me about sort of contextualizing it and making me feel like okay cool well, I mean, the worst that'll happen is, you know, the show doesn't quite work, or maybe I'm not as good as, I'm never as good as I hope I would be. But, but it's not, it's not based on like my impression of a vague Jim Gordon.

You know what I mean? Like there's no. Yeah. I mean, I feel the same way. If I would have been like, I'm going to do Gene Hackman, I'm like, hey, Clark, how's it going? And just, you know, and by the way, Gene Hackman's my favorite. But honestly, I said, just play it real. Just be genuine.

be real have emotions and once i shave my fucking head what you didn't have to do it just that i was like all right i'm here i'm ready put on a suit i like i wear short i'm wearing short sandals and a t-shirt this is how i dress norm you put on a suit and two or three hundred dollars shoes and a tie and give me a mansion and shave my head i am going to be different and i needed all that so but for you it was like hey i'm ben mackenzie they're going to do my hair a little bit it's going to be in a different time but did you did you feel like day one you felt like I feel like this guy I feel like it I felt like they had all of those things that you talked about all those resources were so teed up I mean I remember we shot a pilot we were not picked up to series you know officially yet

but I walked into this two-story GCPD set that they built there was got to be I forget how much it cost but it's definitely a million dollar set if not more and And, you know, to build a million-dollar two-story set, I'd never been on a two-story set. I'd never been on a set where you could have multiple open levels and 200 background inside of a set before. And I remember showing up, and thankfully, they'd walked me through, you know, I got to see it before I had just filmed there and going, okay, all right, got it. You're going to have all the toys behind you. like you're going to have all the the setting's going to be there you're going to have the clothes you're going to have the the the manpower so to speak to like support the fact that you are

supposed to be a leader of men right jim gordon spoke right now you need to be a leader of men now you now you need to the rest is up to you that's see that's anxiety that's like you're sitting there you're looking at the second yep yep i'm pretending i'm confident and inside you're about to shit your pants and you're going yeah yeah i got to step it up man i got if i can step it up I remember the first shot of the first day, we were in the set. There were at least 100 or probably 200 background. It was this whole scene or some bad guy, some bad guy had been pulled in and arrested, and he breaks free of the officers that are trying to slam him in the jail cell in the set.

And I appear magically on this upper deck and come down and disarm them, save the day. And that's my introduction, right? Super heroic introduction. So it's great. And we're doing the rehearsals and da-da-da-da-da. And we finally start rolling. And I'm literally, I basically come down, you know, descend from the rafters. You know, I wasn't on wires, but I might as well have been.

You know, GCPD, you know, unhand him or whatever. And I literally remember going, gee, see, my voice cracked. I almost tripped on the stairs. Like I literally went, because my nerves were I was like. My adrenaline was out of control. And it was super embarrassing and ever pretended it didn't happen. And Danny Cannon pretended it didn't happen to his endless credit. And then the next take, you know, got better and better and better.

But like, no one's immune from that stuff. And it's okay. And, you know, you can't let it get in your head. That's the thing. Because I immediately would go to if something happened like that, I immediately go to, I'm looking at Video Village in my head. And I'm seeing the producer going, dude you think we cast the right guy fuck it just i don't know what the word is it just grows that

and you got to stop it you just got to stop it you're a fucking you're good you remember tim roth and reservoir dogs when he looks in the mirror and goes you're fucking so cool you're so good they have no fucking idea you're you're you're you know he starts pumping himself up dude believe it or not it may it's cheesy if people see it but it doesn't mean we don't do it nope nope i'm fucking good i belong here get your fucking shit together beat the shit out of this actor with words right now it sounds stupid but i fucking think it i'm like i'm going to fucking destroy it right now i have to or i could fall apart i'm not and that's not possible absolutely right absolutely right and whatever that is whatever blend of of drives ego narcissism that gets you

there like it's in that context it's all good all game yeah i mean at the end of the day like they're paying for that they are paying to see you not if you if you look afraid on screen. Fucked. Done. Done. All, listen, this is rapid questions for my patrons. Talk to me.

It's called shit talking with my patrons. Here we go. Shit talking with Ben McKenzie. Lee-An-P., which is your favorite episode that you directed from Gotham? My three soups. One of my three soups. The one with, yeah, that one. Chris Fett.

What other on-screen project would you like to do with Morena? You know what? It's funny. We actually have been thinking about more stuff because we're in a pandemic so we might we you know we may do something we'll see there's nothing to like officially like talk about yet but we're we're trying because it because it'd be fun to do something given that so many people can't shoot right now it'd be fun to do something together so we're an idea Ben for this horror movie listen we take it's seven actors we all get tested and everybody's

together for 10 days and then the crew minimal crew so it's like 18 people everybody's literally tested doesn't go out and then we're there for 10 days filming and it's it's awesome anyway I love this idea. Oh, dude, it's great. It's got, I can't, I'm not to talk about it. All right, Tabitha, I'm a huge fan of Southland. I have asked many other cast members this question. I always love hearing different responses I get.

Do you think the show had more to tell and should have been saved, or do you think it went out in a blaze of glory at the right time? You know, I think it, we always, we definitely could have told more. But that being said, we were, if memory serves, we were told in advance that we were going to be ending. And so we got to, to wrap it up to some degree. and I have a belief that no show shows are not meant to ever die, right? Like they're all, whatever, theoretically small bill could still be running

because it's built with an engine that that could, that's what makes it a TV show, a good TV show. But I think I'm proud of what we did and I'm grateful to T&T for saving us, and I think we went off the place of court. DK, what was your last day on the set of the OC like? You have any fond memories of that day and how did it compare with your last day in the set of Gotham? You know, my last days are hard.

I remember my last day on the side of the O.C. I remember talking to, you know, giving me just a few remarks as I did my last shot, which I think was the last shot of the show, you know, teams of filming. And just saying that the truth, which was that when I got hired on the O.C, I'd been in L.A. for a year and I didn't have any friends, really. And now I feel like I have, you know, a few hundred. And I hope that when I see, you know, you see anyone or few guys out on the street when we're in which, I hope we can grab a drink.

or have a coffee or just reminisce because it's been an amazing time. And I remember that, you know, getting a little teary and feeling that and still believing that to be true. So that was, that was O.C. Gotham was, Gotham was different because it changed my life in different ways. I met Moreno. We, we have a family together. We have a child together.

Um, you know, so that, that had a whole other connotation to it. But, but, but, but similarly, uh, a wonderful experience. Carly T. last few questions. to make the lead from Teen Stark quite effortlessly to leading man. What decision did you make at the time to help this, to help aid this? And were there any projects that you turned down on the back of the O.C. fame? I remember there were projects that were literally described as like the O.C. and the film and like one or two of those came my way, you know,

or like opening shot his guy where his wife feeder and smoke cigarette. And I was like, probably not the right move for me right now. So I would say discretion is the better part of valor there. I think I probably avoided a few traps, but the rest of it was just notically the anxiety-ridden next gig and the next gig and next gig, like putting all the energy, trying to focus all that energy into making sure I wasn't a teen idol who never worked again.

Anxiety, baby. Yep, anxiety. Emily asks, what have you been doing to get through this COVID-19 insanity? You know, wine is a wonderful thing. I love wine. I love wine all the time. We eat well, we cook, we play with our kids, we don't watch the news, that kind of thing. Janelle B, what's your biggest pet peeve and what do you think is your most annoying habit?

I've got a lot of annoying habits. I defer to Miranda on which one is the most annoying. I bet biggest pet peeve? I don't know. Bad grammar. I don't like people who use words incorrectly. I'm a real, real pain in the house. I'm glad I used metastasized earlier.

How do you pronounce it? Metastasize. Yeah, yeah. You almost used that. I almost used it, but I think you only use that word really for like cancer and things, right? No, anything bad. It's usually in the context of something negative, right? Oh, then I would have used it right.

I just thought I wouldn't use it. And I shouldn't use big words anyway. Braden Kay, what was it like? Well, I mean, I know this question. I read an interview about the motorcycle and all that stuff. We don't have to get in it. You guys can go look that up, but about the motorcycle they made you learn it and a ride a motorcycle.

Then it was a different motorcycle. It was too big and all that shit. But Braden Kay was what was like working with Al Pacino? I mean, the first time you acted with him, you have words. I mean, can you not get it out of your head that you're acting without Pacino? Yeah. No, it was amazing. I mean, my body just left, my soul left my body and was like peering down over me,

just going like, this is amazing. Yeah. And I was always, was always great to me and just a pro. Did you take a picture? of them? Did you get a picture with them? I don't know if I ever did, actually. You're not like that, are you? I'm like that. You're not like that. I should be. I should be. I should be.

Marinas always be like, take a fucking picture. That's what I do. Everybody makes fun of me. As you can see, if you ever come to my house, you'll see all the posters autograph. In fact, I have right there, Gary Oldman signed my Dracula poster and he signed it to Michael. I have crossed the oceans of time to fly. How did you get that? Did you run into her? I've met him a couple times, and through a close friend, I can't say it's someone who's could be my person who cuts my hair

or something I finally just and there was a couple times where I you know I walked in and I saw Gary's right before me getting his haircut and there's nobody in there so I went and got a pizza and brought a pizza to Gary he's like oh you don't have to do this man and he's just so nice and like so then I got that sign and he was cool about it

so anyway that's awesome last question little Lisa who did you have the most fun working with on Gotham besides Morena I added that and that cast was so great. I loved working with Robin Taylor, who's like the sweetest guy in the world. Corey Michael Smith

is just one talented MF. I loved working with him. Cameron Monaghan's brilliant, a brilliant young actor. He's going to do some great stuff. Yeah, it's really hard to pick. And then obviously, I mean, Donal, you know,

Donald Logue's my partner on the show and just like a partner, you know, in life in the sense that he just, it's just a good egg man. And you could sit around. great stories and an incredible life and we could talk about anything we could talk about anything and talk about things for hours and hours and hours and never feel like we ran out a conversation so that's great you should have married him you know what I tried wasn't into it wasn't into it yeah this has been awesome by the way you also voiced the Batman the year one it

was called right you voiced Batman you work with Andrea Romano many many moons ago yes I love Andrea she told me I was just talking to her the other day and she's like up you tell ben mackenzie i don't know if he'll remember what he was the the first voice of a batman or he voiced batman yeah i absolutely remember her i love her give her my best are you guys working on something right now are you doing some uh are you just we're friends and she's uh she's also helping me get some uh guess she knows so many people she's oh i'll get you now she is she is the best she's the best she really is dude i love this i can't wait till we actually could hang out but this was this was worth it and uh you know

I didn't know a lot about you other than I thought you were great, a great guy, great actor. I didn't know much more about you other than you always were really pleasant and cool. And I was like, so it's always a little weird. And then within five seconds, I'm completely comfortable. And I feel like you opened up. And I read that you know, you're private, but I really feel like you opened up. I didn't, I hope I didn't slam you too hard.

But you, like. Not at all. I don't know, man. And so nice to talk to you. Like similarly, I've always been a fan of your work. and Marina speaks highly of you and talks about making your movie very fondly and she just loves you

and so I'm thank you for having me on and I hope that when this is all over you know and you come by the house for a drink or go out to dinner and it'd be fun or make a horror movie or make a horror movie hey we're available we'll talk. Hey thanks for allowing me to be inside you buddy I love you I appreciate you

I love you too pal thanks for having me on All right, that was fun. Great guests, man. That was fun. Just such a nice guy. I like nice people, but he opened up and that's good. Ryan, you've been doing an exceptional job editing the shows. Thank you.

Truly. I mean, you know, I look at them and I'm like, it's professional. They're good interviews. They're fun. You hope people stick around. You hope people tell their friends. And you're doing a great job and you make the show look great. So, you know, I couldn't do this without you or Bryce.

And I'm blessed. So thanks, dude. No problem. Yeah, I'm going to be doing some more Instagram lives. I haven't been doing them recently, but I'm going to do some and trying to recruit some patrons. It's a great community. There's a girl I just throw out a woman, Marissa, and her and this other amazing patron, little Lisa, they became really close friends from Patreon for being on my Patreon.

It's like, like I said, a community. And they're like best friends now. Like she's going up to visitor. And it's just a cool thing. And I see the community. And we do these live. YouTube, live YouTubes where I play some songs

and they recommend, you know, they request certain songs and I either suck at the songs or but it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. I really love patron. I never thought I it would be this fun. So thank you again for all the support. I'm going to read off the

top tier patrons right quickly, right quickly. Here we go. Thank you all. Top tier patrons and to all the patrons in general. Nancy D Mary B Leah S Tricia F Zara

Sarah V You've heard these names Ryan Because you I've heard him countless times Little Lisa Yukiko

Jill E Brian H Lauren G Nico P Barry I Angelina G Jerry W Kevin R

Emily K Bob B Robert B Jason W Kristen K Amelia O Allison L Tom

N Jess J Raj Joshua D D Emily S CJP Samantha M Jennifer

N, Stacey B, Carly T. Ream, Jennifer S, Janelle B, Tab of the 272, Kimberly E, Melissa C, Mike E, Jake M. Marissa, N, Judith D. Ramira, Beth B, Chris F, Sarah F, Chad, W. Leanne, P. Jackie P. Laudrigo S. Raychum. Racham. I always mess that up. You notice that when you're... Yeah, I don't know what it is. Rachel. Great. It's Ray and then Chan. Ray Chan. Love it. Ray Chan. Ray A. Maya P. Megan D. Jennifer C. Tiffany L. Or is that an eye, straight line. Those eyes? Tiffany I. Kendrick F, Ashley E. Sigorni, P, Tom P, Matt W., Belinda, and Benjamin R, Lisa Jay, and Kevin V. Those are your top-tier patrons who thank you for all your love and support.

Another great episode next week. I hope you tune in. Keep tuning in, man. You know, as long as you're tuning in, we're doing this shit. You're turning them out, tune in, turn out. Turn out. Turn out. Oh, dude, Ryan, what a treat it is to have you here, though. It's good, man. It's weird seeing other faces, I will tell you. It is. You've been locked up, bro.

Been good. I'm going to keep being good because we kind of have to. That's for sure. Another shout out to my good buddy, Preston Christensen. I love you, buddy. You had a birthday, and I had a birthday, and I hope you got all my stuff. I sent you, and I love the gifts you and Mom and Chris sent. And I met him at the on McDonnell House and he's doing well right now. Things are in remission and it's an awesome thing. I hope it stays that way. It will.

And food on foot.org, my good buddy, Rob, a great organization for homeless and echoes of hope for foster youth. And thank you again to all the patrons who support the podcast. Join, if you like, either patron, where have all the good horror movies gone and inside of you podcast patron. And that's about it. So stay healthy, stay safe. and thank you for allowing me to be inside each and every one of you.

You too, Ryan. Hi, I'm Joe Saul-Chi, host of the Stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice.

Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this addition. We're adding. $50,000. I'll buy a new podcast partner. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing everybody. We're out of here. Stacky Benjamin's follow and listen on your favorite platform.