Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Bill & Ted’s ALEX WINTER: Bringing it Back

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Alex Winter (Bill & Ted, Lost Boys) joins us this week to share his experience of being under the limelight since he was a child, unexpectedly hitting fame with Bill & Teds, and then leaving Hollywood for a much needed sanity break. Alex talks about his enjoyment for acting the lifelong friendships he’s been able to build with costars like Jason Patric and Keanu Reeves. We also talks about growing up with free thinking Bohemian parents, his love for creating documentaries, and burning out in Hollywood. Thank you to our Sponsors: ❤️ Betterhelp: https://betterhelp.com/inside 😄 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Thanks for listening, making this podcast, your choice. Great guests today. But we've got some cool information. So hopefully we'll stick around. If you're here for Alex Winter and you just want to fast forward, I ask you not to. And if you like this interview, I hope you'll say, hey, not a bad podcast. Let's subscribe and write a review.

Maybe just follow us on our handles, which are. At Inside of You pod on Twitter, at Inside of You podcast on Instagram and Facebook. That is exceptionally true. We also have a cool merch at the inside of you online store, autographs, Smallville scripts, and inside of you mugs and tumblers and great stuff. Lex Luthor, Funko Pops, autograph. It's time. It's a holiday season if you want to get these. Also go to sunspin.com, my band, Sunspin, our album just came out.

We have new merch. We have a new CD. You can get signed or not signed in a calendar with me and all the months of the year with Rob. that's there, mugs, tons of stuff, sunspin.com, and you can use, well, I don't know if the code's going to be on there, so I won't say that, but anyway, go there, sunspin.com, and also Tom and I will be at, I guess this air is Tuesday, so we'll be in Columbus this weekend coming for a con. Columbus, Ohio, Saturday night, Smallville nights. We do an event, Tom and I, it's a wonderful event you'll like it. And the following week will be in Pittsburgh, signing autograph.

at Steel Citycom. And I'm also on the cameo. If there's a Christmas, you want me to say something for Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanza, go to cameo, get a reserved now. Ryan, it was kind of cool.

My friend Chris McDonald, not to be fused with Happy Gilmore, Chris McDonald. He lives in Atlanta. He was at a comic book store with his wife, and he was like, man, Rosenbaum would love this store,

action figures and stuff. And the owner goes, are you talking about Michael Rosenbaum? He's like, yeah. He's like, you know him? I was like, yeah, he's my best friend. And the guy's like, I love him. His podcast, he has such a soothing voice.

That's what Chris told me. Hold on. Can I play the audio just so you don't think I'm bullshit in you? Can I do it? Sure, yeah. I'm going to do it. So listen to this. This is crazy.

I was at this old historic area of this suburb in Atlanta called Lawrenceville. And there was a cool comic. collector shop the guy had all these crazy old comics man um and all these crazy old collector items like star wars action figures the original obi one canobi out of the 12 set all this crazy stuff and i was there with brenda and i was just like man you know who'd love this store because they have lunch boxes all this stuff i said Rosenbaum and the guy the owner said Rosenbaum you wouldn't mean Michael Rosenbaum it was so random I said yeah yeah and he goes that's crazy I just assume you meant him because I'm obsessed with

this podcast and I know he I just know about him and I know that he collects I said that's crazy he goes yeah man his podcast is hands down the best podcast out there you know there are all these people who have podcasts and it's just meaning this they just like to hear themselves talk but he gets to the

root of mental health and this and that and blah blah my favorite one he was naming his favorite episodes and he was saying in his voice he has such a soothing radio voice it's like listening to the old school radio host that's just like my god yeah man he's a huge inside of you fan and he loves that you're a collector and everything man it's crazy so i just you know i just said man if he ever

comes to visit me we'll come by this store because he's gonna love this store so the guy was over the moon but just let you know man you got a huge inside of you fan out there it was cool man brother man Jesus I thought that was so cool It was just sweet And it brightened my day That somebody out there was like

I know that we have listeners And people who are devoted And love the podcast But you know That my friend experienced that In Atlanta At a comic book store And it was so random

I just thought I got a kick out of it I really got a kick out of it And thanks Chris For brightening my day You all brighten my day With messages like that that's pretty much it i think we can get into it uh we got a great podcast i've been trying to get this guy for a while my friend jason patrick who lost boys great actor uh his friends with him they

worked together on lost boys and um i met him at jason patrick's son's concert and i was like hey could you get alex he's like yeah it came over the house and was just open willing to talk about lost boys willing to talk about bill and ted and kianu and his life and what he's doing. It just, it was very fun to have him here. He's iconic. He's a legend. It was great. And I think you guys are going to really enjoy this. You enjoy this, isn't you? It was great. Yeah. I loved it. Um, so anyway, here it is. Let's get inside of Alex Winter. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of you is brought to you by Quince.

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Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. First of all, did you notice anything weird in this room? No, though. I like all the posters. Yeah. Did you notice that one over there? No, I didn't see that. coming here. I had Jason and Kiefer

over here for the podcast. Yeah, Jason told me. It was really fun. They were great. They were really great. And they were Keeper sitting right in front of it. He was like, oh, geez, you're a nerd. Yeah, of course you got to get in there. You know, it's one of those things where you're probably tired of talking about everything except your awesome documentaries. It's like, I don't want to talk

or do you care? I don't really care. I've been doing this so long. You get, you know, you get not an nerd to it, but you know when you're talking to cool people or people ask you interesting questions or whatever there's always something to it you know what I mean yeah you know a lot of times

the bill and tech questions get very repetitive but I don't know it was a fun time of my life so I don't normally mind talking about any of it yeah I think it was a terrible time and you hated working with Keanu and yeah and then you were like you know I don't really you know it sucks yeah that's the thing and Jason I were

talking about recently was just like we you know with the Lost Boys thing It was such a seminal experience and age that we enjoy talking about. We enjoyed being together. You know what I mean? Like the whole gang enjoyed each other. So you've been friends since that movie. Yeah, I've known Kiefer and Jason since then.

I mean, obviously, we've all gone our separate ways. And I didn't live in it. I left L.A. in like 93 and didn't come back until 2005. So where'd you go? I had a production company in London. And I worked out of the UK. and I lived in upstate New York and I lived in England. So I literally, I just sort of hit pause on the Hollywood.

Were you over it? I was. I'd started it professionally at nine years old. I'd worked pretty much nonstop until I was 25. And after Bill and Ted 2, I really, I was already directing. I'd gone to film school. I was already, you know, making commercials and music videos. And we had a TV show on MTV and then we eventually made a feature.

And after that, I was like, I'm out of here. And I literally, like, called my agents who were lovely. And I just said, look, I'm going to split because I'm not going to go out on call. So there's no point me being at this agency anymore. And I left. Do you know, I've, I don't know how many times I've thought of that. I just want to go. And I was like, you know, I'm going to move back to Indiana.

Right. And my friend's like, dude, what are you going to do in Indiana? Like, I don't know. It's close to stuff. Right. Chicago and St. Louis. And it's like, what are you going to do? Like, I've got a nice drink.

I'll play some men's league. hockey. I'll have a house. They're seasons. Yeah. I'll have fall and winter and summer and spring. Yeah. It's just different. It's like, dude, you can't get so bored. You have no friends there. I go, why have old childhood friends? That's right. And I was just like, probably cops now. But yeah, exactly. And they always just talk, taught me out of it. I mean, I think I think that if they were all like, you should, man, I think you'd have a really nice time. I'd probably listen to them. Yeah. But I really trust my friends, even though I get aggravated by their honest thoughts on the whole thing. Yeah. And they're like, you would just, you would go bananas. Yeah. And I always think that having like a little lake behind you and a nice peaceful house, but then I'm like, but you still have to live with yourself. You do. Yeah. There you are in the mirror. Yeah. And I love the industry and I love what I do. But when you start really young, I think it's kind of healthy to have some time away. Yeah, I would say. Because it's just a constant, you know, when you're in the, the, you've never really had that sort of.

sort of regular life constant if you start that young yeah like it's a good thing to have at some point I didn't know you started so young I mean I think I probably would have gone absolutely insane I'm a very immature person and if

you know I didn't get my first big thing smallville till I was like 27 yeah or something yeah but that was like the big break and yeah I think if that hit me when I was nine right 10 or even 15 18, I would lose my mind. I wouldn't know what to do. I didn't have the maturity. I didn't

have the wherewithal. I didn't, I probably would have gotten some trouble. Yeah. And all of those things. I think I'm, I think I've ticked every box that you just mentioned, but yeah. Really? Yeah, sure. It's inevitable. I mean, it's inescapable. And it's okay. There's ways of, of getting through all that. But it's inescapable. It's, you know, as a director, I've worked with kids a lot. And I always have. And I talk to a lot of moms, you know, they're always like, know what should we do like you went through it and i was like well you could just pull them out you know yeah right it's like that's the safest thing you could do is you could pull them out but if you're going to keep men then you got to be all over it because it's a lot yeah for kids that

young i got to say this is going to come off weird you might take it might be upset with me there's no weird question i'm honest to god i don't envy you i'm glad i had a childhood yeah even though dysfunctional family and all this all right i'm out of here i'm glad that i wasn't immersed in this business so early on yeah and that i had friends to walk around our little neighborhood and cut through yards and drink out of garden hoses and catch fireflies and play with football in the backyard and be a kid yeah and kind of get lost and just getting the mischief and it just seems like you didn't have that i did actually but you have that and the job on top of it like i I had summer camps and I had my buddies

and I had my running around back alleys and I had all of that. Okay. But I had, and so it's, you know, to be fair to my parents, I think they thought I had a normal childhood. But applied on top of that was, I was on Broadway and I was doing eight shows a week, including two on Saturday and two on Sunday and two on Wednesday.

How old were you here? I was on Broadway from age 13 to age 17, every day. Wow. Um, and then I was doing shows before that and auditioning all the time and all that from, and I was doing commercials and theater and stuff from like 10 to 13. Um, so that's like, that's applied on top of the normal life. It's like you have this life and then you have that thing on top of the life. So, you know, to, to your point, like, I think what saved my sanity was that I had that alternative life. But the stressors of trying to manage both. Right. Are very intense at that age. Yeah. And, will bite you on the ass on some level. It's just inescapable. Do you think kids, when you start acting at a young age, it's beneficial in some ways?

Because is there a lack of that sort of anxiety-ridden thing that we get as adults, the older we get, we care more? We're obsessed with being great. We're like, when you're a kid, you sort of let things go. That's why you see some great child actors that are just awesome. And you're like, how do they do that? like the Joel, what's his name? Haley Joel Osmond.

Yeah. And you're like, what is, or Jody Foster or Elijah Wood or, I mean, Henry Thomas. I think that that, I mean, I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else but myself because everybody's different. But I think that for me, I actually had a love of stage, which is why my parents let me do it at a really young age. I was dancing. I mean, my parents were dancers, but they were modern dancers.

So they weren't in the industry at all, like at all at all. but I love tap and I love theater and I love being on stage and I'm really young I got on stage at like five six seven so and I was taking dance class at three four five six um gosh so I was like all singing all dancing and they were like oh my god we're going to get out of his way and so they didn't want to not let me do it because I loved it so much um and that's different like when I when I talked to other kids uh and I made a documentary for HBO called show biz kids yeah Talk to a lot of kids for that. And there were some, you know, who were just all singing, all dancing. And it made sense. And like, if you're their parent, what are you going to do? You know? Yeah.

But it's a lot for the parent if once you get into, you know, if you have some success. And so to answer your question, I don't know how much it matters. I think that for me, personally, my trajectory, you know, I was on Broadway. I got hired by Yul Brynner. I was like working with very high end people very young. But I didn't start studying intensely until my. early 20s. Like, I had actually almost finished my career before I was like, okay, now I want to really study. And I, you know, I'd gone through film school even. I was like, no, I want to work

with like really high-end method people. He went to NYU. I went to NYU for film. I didn't study acting at all at NYU. And so I came out and I was like, I just want to train. And I just started training even when I wasn't acting professionally. So I kind of rebuilt my own craft later. That's rare, huh? Which is just a weird. This is just because I like act. I mean, I do have the bug. I love it. Um, and I, absolutely. I adore it. And I'm, I'm happy to be back doing it again. I've been training like heavily for the last 15 years. Training. Yeah, vocal, physical. You still do that all the time. I train all the time. Are you serious? I never hear this. It's one of my favorite things to do, though. I think you have to like doing it. I don't think every, I remember talking, I won't name the actor because

he's a very famous. I remember talking to a friend of mine who's very famous. And I was, we were talking about training. He's like, I never train. I just hate it and I never do it. And he's got a great career. So God bless him. But I just love it. I love singing lessons. I love doing Alexander training work. I love all of that. You do it every week. I do it all the time. Yeah. Intensely. Well, I mean, I have a life. Scene study. You memorize lines. You go in. I'm always doing a scene. Exactly. And you take your scenes to him to a coach to do work on auditions. Yeah, I do that too. That's almost like a separate thing. But I, but I'll work my auditions with my coach. But I'll just run scenes all the time. And like all through COVID, I was doing like, Henry the 5th and like all this crazy Shakespeare stuff just for fun um you find that fun i do yeah that is you inside of you is brought to you by rocket money i'm going to speak to you about something

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with Michael Rosenbaum in the survey so they know I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. Rocket Money. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. If you want to save money, then listen to me because I use this. Ryan uses as so many people use Rocket Money. It's a lot of a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions crazy right how cool is that monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings and you know what's great it works it really works ryan rocket money will even try to negotiate lowering your bills for you the app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and it goes to work to get

you better deals they'll even talk to customer service thank god so you don't have to to um i don't know how many times we talk about this but like you know you got it and they helped you in so many ways and with these subscriptions that you think are like oh it's a one month subscription for free and then you pay well we forget we want to watch a show on some streamer and then we forget and now we owe two hundred dollars by the end of the year they're there to make sure those things don't happen and they will save you money you know rocket rocket money's five million members have saved a total of 500 million $10 and canceled subscriptions with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features.

Get alerts if your bills increase in price, if there's unusual activity in your accounts, if you're close to going over budget, and even when you're doing a good job. How doesn't everybody have Rocket Money? It's insane. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum in the search. so they know that I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show. I mean, it's always a lot to me when somebody says, you have to memorize all this. And you have to, it's like, it's a job. Yeah. And you have to be great in auditions. I hate auditioning. Like, I'm not insane. I don't like, I don't like, I don't like auditioning.

I like, I like acting. Right, right, right. You know, if you're doing scenes with a really great coach, there's nothing more free than that other than doing like black box theater, right? Or it's just like, come if you feel like it, don't, if you don't feel like it. Auditioning sucks. Yes. And I've hated auditioning since I was started auditioning. It just sucks. Are you good at it, though?

I don't know. I mean, what kind of feedback? You know, I've had these questions and these conversations with other actors. And they're like, you know, all casting directors will always give you feedback, feedback to your agency. He was great. He's just not, they're going in a different direction. Or he's great. We haven't made a decision.

He's always great. He's always great. And I'm like, I got to. get to the bottom of this. Yeah. I can't always be great. Not everybody's great. And I talk to a casting director and I go, why do you casting directors always say great? He was great. Honestly, it's because if that person becomes a star or that person becomes a demand, we want to bring them in. So they sort of lie. And it's easier to say, he did a good job, but we're not, you know. Instead of saying, your client is one of the worst actors I've ever seen. What a piece of shit that was. He didn't take any time. I mean,

occasionally you'll get some but like but that requires a lot of hubris like you think about i'm reading one of um i love reading uh uh anthony shares books the you know the the south african uh shakespearean actor who died not too long ago and he was saying um passages just reading the other day about how he applied to every major british acting school when he first got to england and he was rejected like you just said by like rata said not only were you terrible but you should absolutely not act. You know, and 15 years later, he was knighted and doing every major Shakespeare part as the, you know, the top actor at the RSC. So I think to be fair to casting directors, they don't know, right? I think it's safer for them to say someone was great because they don't

know. You might have had a shitty day. You may be great. You know, I think that what did help me being a young actor as far as that goes with auditioning was I started so young and I got a lot of affirmation from people like Yolbrunner and folks like that. They were like, look, you know, you've got something, keep working on it. Don't listen to anyone. Don't read reviews. And that was some really good advice. Just do the work that you think is good, like within yourself.

That's the best you can do. And I know that's like to an actor like, you know, you hear that. You're like, yeah, right. If you have a bad day, you're like, that's not going to penetrate your head. Right, right. You're just going to think, oh, I'm just, I just suck. But it does resonate in my head. And that's one of the reasons I like to train is like if I do, I might have.

a shitty audition and I've just done an amazing run with my Shakespeare monologue with my coach and I know I don't suck. You know what I mean? Yeah. I just, I wasn't either right for it or I didn't hit it right or somebody was rude in the, in the casting room and it set me off or whatever. You know, you have to have nerve still to do any of this stuff. Yeah. And you have to smile. And but I direct a lot and so I'm on the other side of that equation a lot. And it, you know, I and it helps me my doc work a lot because I really care about making the people I'm working with feel comfortable and that they can trust me and that that's genuine and that I have their back. Yeah. Because as an actor, you often don't have anyone who has your back. Yeah. Do you, are you do you let things go

pretty quickly? Like I learned to when I audition for something, I'll leave as I'm leaving, I'll take the sides and I'll just throw them in the trash. And once I close that door, I forget about I'm 100% that way. And often what I really try to do and have, have, and do much better as an adult than I did when I was a young actor is I just, I'm just grateful, I mean, you know, I'll say this to you because you're an actor because some people would just think it's bullshit. But I'm just grateful for the opportunity to act, period, for the opportunity to explore a character, right, even if I'm wrong for it.

Like, that's something that came with a little bit more maturity. Like, I'll read the size. I'm like, that is literally the opposite of me. But this is awesome. Like, I get to try to figure out what version of that character would be me. I'm sure they won't cast me because, like, I wouldn't cast me for this. But I'm going to, I'm going to have fun exploring, like, this weird guy that's not at all like me. And I'm grateful for that opportunity.

Wow. You're an anomaly. Well, it's also, I am and I'm not. I have another job. You know what I mean? I have a whole other career directing my docs and I have a company and I'm not normally needing the acting job to pay my bills. Right.

So, and again, it's not like I'm so privileged, like, I'm just, like, independently wealthy. I do need to work, like, I'm out in the world. You have a family. Yeah, I have, like, life and health insurance. And, you know, I've never been, like, you know, I'm not a trust fund kid. Right, right. Really not unwealthy family, to put it mildly. So it's not like I'm cavalier in that way, but I feel like I'm just there to do the best

character that I can do. And I have gratitude to be able to find a character that I can fuck with, kind of. Yeah. you know but to your absolutely i leave and i'm like that's my take i'm done like if you get it it's almost it's weird it's like when i get things down i'm just kind of like oh i kind of felt i did this already like showing up to do it for you's like i'm just i'll just do it again you know but it was done we did it i you know the difference is a lot of people and i'm sure i know i'm not i'm sure i've done this but i'll be sent something i go this is absolutely not

me they're never going to cast me this i'm not wasting my time i'm not going to sit there and we'll take three days to learn these lines. Yeah. And try to be great in something they will not cast me in. Yeah. So I don't do that. You take the challenge as an exercise. Yeah.

You've always done that? No, I have not. When I was younger, I did not do that. It made me crazy. I would read something and just be like, God, this is such a waste of my time. I am not going in on this. There's no way.

Or they cajole me into doing it and I would and I wouldn't get it. And I'd be like, there's no way I was going to get that. But I was not mature, you know. Yeah. And maybe that's my problem. No, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not saying that's your problem. I think I get a lot of, a lot of grounding from the fact that I don't have, the stakes are lower for me because I'm usually about to start another doc or whatever.

And it's fine if I'm not going to get that. It's okay. I have nothing to lose. Right. And then I think the other thing that helped me was because I spent so many intervening years directing, because like the whole chunk of time when I left the business, I was directing primarily commercials and indie films and what kind of commercials. I mean, I did tons, but I do a lot of sort of a fair. effects driven big comedy. It was in the UK. So the ads there are pretty cool. And their comedy is very smart, smart and sophisticated. And oftentimes we were building big sets and doing fun,

crazy physical things. Wow. And the actors are really good. And because they don't have a giant film community, you know, you would have Terry Gilliam's production designer. You'd have Kubrick Stolly grip. Like it was crazy. Wow. So the quality of the people around me was very high and I learned a lot. But I also auditioned all the time actors. And I would watch actors come in who were like, if I was the guy was like, I would be like, why are they even here? They're so not right for it. And then they would do something great. And they would totally turn my own thinking around. And that got me to think, you know what? I don't know everything. You never know what they're thinking. Right. And it's like, and I would cast someone who was so not even what I thought I was going to cast. Like, that's like,

this is the opposite of the type that we asked for. And then they like, I'm like, wow, that's such an interesting take. Let's go that way. Or let's, find something for him. Yeah, or exactly. Or absolutely next time, let's put them, like, this is the person who's going to do X. So I think that's helped me a lot now, too, of just like thinking, and the other aspect of that when you're on the other side of it is like everybody's under stress. Yeah. You know, casting's under stress. Directors are under stress. Everyone has a boss. Everyone's under stress. And that's also very, that really levels the playing field. And I came back to acting just like, we're all slugging it away together in the same trench, right? Yeah.

in the same foxhole, whatever side of the camera we're on. And that makes you just kind of go, you know, I'm just going to go have fun and, like, do the best I can with this character and not sweat it. Did you listen to Yule Brenner and other people about not reading your reviews and not? He got mad at it. He was like the one of the only times he got, he was a lovely, genteel, amazing guy, and was one of the best mentors I ever had. And I was very young when I worked with him.

The only time, he didn't lose his temper, but the only time he kind of got short with me was we had just gone from Broadway. we ended up out at the Pantages on the national tour and I got a I got singled out in a really bad review and singled out is in a good way. As in the show, no, no, no, no. Oh, you were the bad. Yeah, yeah.

As in the show is great except the only problem with this show. Are you serious? Is this kid Alex Winter who played. That had to kill you. And I was 13 and I was like, you know, my first big show and I'd just come from doing it on Broadway and it was, it was amazing, but it was very intense, you know. And I went, I was really hurt and I went to Brenner and I was like, God, I just got this crushing review.

And he was like, no, stop, stop, stop. Do not read the reviews. Do not read the reviews. You do the best you can do. I'm here to tell you you're great. Fuck the reviews. And I was like, well, okay then. And that was it for reviews?

No, but it was, it was strengthening. Yeah. You know, I understood the, the note behind the note, as they say. Right. And I certainly take them less seriously. And now I have, I honestly, you know, I get reviewed all the time, especially for my film work. And I, I get as much, I actually like reading reviews to see if I can mine anything

constructive from them. Sure, sometimes they hurt. I'm not impervious to that. But I do find I get a lot out of good or bad reviews. Have you ever talked to someone who reviewed it and just be like, what, what, do you have something against me? What the fuck? Why does you write?

Why would you write this? It's that bad? It's kind of like internet trolls, though. when you actually meet your internet troll, they're always like super nice and like backpedal at 100 miles an hour. So anytime I've met critics, like even if they're friends of mine who have slagged me, they're always super nice and I don't know.

It's much, you know, being behind a pen or a keyboard is emboldening. Yeah. Jesus, man. Were you all, I mean, it sounds like you had a pretty good upbringing, right? I did.

You know, I think my parents, my parents were crazy bohemian artists but they were lovely as well and i had a lot of admiration for them are they still with us my mom is my dad's been gone for a while um he ran a dance company in the midwest in st louis modern dance company and my mom was a dancer and you know that was when i made the zappa doc one of the reasons i wanted to make it was i felt very a lot of affinity for those kids not literally because i didn't know them you know than meeting them around Hollywood or whatever.

One of the houses like right there. Yeah, I shot here. Like I was there every day for a very long time. But, uh, but I grew up in a very similar household with like two parents who were very bohemian during the sexual revolution and the house was a little nuts. People over mingling. People over all the time, waking up with naked bodies walking around. Really?

Two modern dancer parents, you know. So naked dongs walking around and other things, women. Yes, all of the above. And you were kind of used to it. I got used to it. I mean, I had, we were in St. Louis mostly because my mom taught it Wash You. And it was a very suburban normal existence on the one hand and a super crazy bohemian existence on the other. And so it was, I mean, it was an interesting upbringing and I got an enormous amount out of it.

And my parents were very brilliant and very inspiring, but definitely crazy bohemian folks. So it smelled like popery and like a pier one imports and some weed. Not that that, thankfully. Yeah, no, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't like, you know, she was a college professor at a major university and like, you know, um, just eccentric and yes, are open, free. Yeah, yeah. And I got myself to school usually and figured out how I was getting home and, you know, at a very young age. So you knew your parents were sort of sleeping with different people and things and having fun. Yeah. And that didn't strike you as odd. It did, but I dealt with it. I mean, I was a regular super open kid. My friends would come over and be like, um, just don't look out that window. Because if you look at, out that window, you're going to see my mom and her boyfriend naked sunbathing. Would people comment to you in high school? Like, oh, there's winners. Family's weird. No, but high school, I was living, I was on Broadway and I was like, I was the weird one, right? Right. But, uh, no, this was like elementary school and stuff.

Ever wonder how dark the world can really get? Well, we dive into the twisted, the terrifying, and the true stories behind some of the world's most chilling crimes. Hi, I'm Ben. And I'm Nicole. Together we host Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast that unpacks real-life horrors, one case at a time. With deep research, dark storytelling, and the occasional drink to take the edge off. We're here to explore the Wicked and Reveal the Grim. We are Wicked and Grim. Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. Inside of You is brought to you by Patreon.

My Love Old Patrons. Go to patreon.com slash inside of you. It truly helps the podcast, top tiers, get things like packages sent to them every few months, notes from me, YouTube lives, um, questions with me. And the list goes on. Please support the podcast. We couldn't do this without you. Patreon.com slash inside of you. Good Lord. Yeah. I used to remember walking home thinking my mom was having an affair and I was thinking of ways to kill the guy if I came there and she was with him and I was like, I'm going to kill this guy. And I'm like eight years old walking up the street. Yeah. And like, you know,

while you're just like, it's just a wow. Yeah. But I mean, I was cool that you just like. You just like, Like, you know, you had a good head on your shoulders. I'm sure they sat with you and said, hey, this is the deal. They were, it was the 70s. So, yeah, it was all very, there was a lot of talking going on, you know. Has she changed, mom? Well, yeah, she's in her 80s. Thank you.

She's in her 80s, yeah. Nobody wants to see that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's just an awesome New York, New Yorker now. How old were you when your parents divorced? Eight. Did that affect you, you think?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure it did. Like, what did it? What, would you remember? It was, it was, I mean, it was the 70s and it was like, you know, the ice storm, right? It was like everybody's parents were fighting, everyone's parents were divorcing, everybody's parents was having affairs, but you didn't want it to be your parents, you know? And, you know, and I, my parents were both really interesting artists, and I looked up to both

of them so much. They were both sort of like lived this, what I just thought was a sort of extraordinary life. You know, they were just human beings at the end of the day, but it was, so it was a little crushing in that way where you really wanted them to be this allegiance. Yeah. Um, and I moved away. My mom and I moved to New York when I was quite young when I was 12. So I lived pretty far away from my dad after that. And how often did you see him? You know, not as often as I would have liked. But you talked on the phone. Yeah, yeah, we were very close. But, uh, you know, my dad was, uh, was a very, was a very all-in choreographer and very in his own world. And I mean, I think I said this to

Ahmet or Moon or someone when I was working on Zapp, but like, I understood coming. coming up in a Bohemian family where dad was a little unattainable, you know, where he was cool, but unattainable. And if you got to him, you usually got to him through his work. It was a bit like that. So there wasn't like any, we talk about emotions or affection. Did you feel like there was a lot of affection with you? I think there was a lot of affection.

There wasn't a lot of committed presence. Like, looking back on it now, because I've got three boys. I mean, one of those is a stepson, but I've been with me forever. Yeah, I met him at the whiskey. That's you did. You met my youngest at the way. That's my kid. met him at the whiskey drills yeah yeah because uh jason patrick yeah mutual friend was his son gus

was playing amazing show just kicked out my god saw you there yeah it was so great my son loved he was just like mesmerized they're the same age i can't believe he could do that at that age it was and be on stage like it's that's balls and uh not omit zappa but dweasel dweasel yeah it helps him i think is helping him has been helping him yeah that's incredible yeah go ahead so i mean it's just You look back on it when you've got your own kids, because I love, I just happen to love parenting. I don't think it's a job for everyone. I've told many of my friends, like, should I have kids? I'm like, not if you don't want them. Not if you don't want to be a dad. No harm or foul, I'm not doing that. You know, we don't need more people who don't want to be parents being parents.

Yeah. I don't think my dad was cut out for parenting. You know, I think my dad didn't really know what on earth to do with kids. So we just didn't. Really? Yeah. So we became a lot closer as I got older. because I was an artist and he was an artist and we just had a lot more in common. But I don't think my dad was cut out for dadhood. Is being a father, is it, how hard is it? I mean, it's a job in a way, right? And so it requires certain instincts, I think, that come with having a job that you like. You know, when you're an actor, you have the, you know, I think you probably tell friends of yours this who want to act or people that are young that ask you about like acting.

It is easy and it's really hard, right? it is genuinely both of those things but if you love it the hard stuff's okay like it's a lot of work it makes you vulnerable there are really bad days you have to be at the top of your game all the time parenting is kind of like that if you're going to be any good at it yeah so it's like it is a lot of work but if you like it's you enjoy the work and that's kind of how i've always felt about it um i genuinely let me there are times and i'm just like like i want to leave the business but like my priorities are like more my kids than the work where i'm just like i'm going to like not do this job and I'm just going to make sure I'm with my kid like and I've taken certain directing jobs just to like have my kids involved and so like I did a couple of movies Ben 10 movies for Cartoon Network is my I was going through a divorce and my youngest my kid at the time was a Ben 10 fanatic and I was like I'm going to just do these Ben 10 I mean they'll have fun I was I wanted to do them but like Lee'll just be able to hang out be immersing Ben 10 get his mind off the shit that's going on at home yeah and like he's into arts who could do

design creatures and I don't know I just think that's if you like being a that's like my dad never have occurred to my dad right like that's a different different mindset yeah but you knew at a young age you're already performing at a young age so you fell in love with it were you more because a lot of times people will say actors will say I just want to do theater that's all I ever wanted to do and other people say like myself I was like I did a lot of theater and I just want to do film and TV now I don't really that's it's too much yeah do you feel that way because you haven't done theater in a long time right i got to tell you man i if i on the acting front if i could do anything i wanted acting wise i would only do i would only do

theater really honest to god but it's it's it's i love movies they're great tv awesome i really do and nowadays i think some of the best storytelling on the planet is going on in tv just because of the way the business has evolved certainly some of the best writing some of the best acting yeah is on tv so i don't have a snobb it's not a snobbery thing but i came up to me i started i got on stage at five you know i was on broadway from 13 to 17 they did the king and i did peter pan i did really some really lovely high-end off-broadway with some really good directors and writers and i missed the stage so much and i would do it if i could but i don't i don't have any any and i just love acting like i was on a set um because i started doing more acting again recently i was on a set with my friend

Lexi Alexander's movie in Nevada, this thing for Netflix. And I'm not the lead. I'm just a supporting character. So I was just, you know, as you are when you're doing that, I was sitting on set a lot waiting to do a scene or something on a day. And just watching a couple of actors in a pool of light, darkness all around, doing their scene, very quiet, hundreds of people watching them silent. And I was like, this is the best job in the world. I mean, it is magic. So you really love it. I do. I love it. You really have a passion for this. Yeah, I do. And I don't, it doesn't have to be theater. but I just love, I love the stage. Do you think you wanted to be famous or you didn't occur to you?

I mean, when we, when we, look, I'm not going to age us, but when people like our age started, there was no social media, right? There was no, there was no, exactly, there was no celebrity because you're on a TV show, right? Like, you know, like we were joking around. Like I was on Broadway, everyone in high school, because I went to a regular public high school in New Jersey. I took the busing every day. My mom did that intentionally. so I'd have a normal life.

It was a really good move on her part. I wasn't at a professional kid's school. But the kids of my school didn't give a shit, right? I wasn't famous. I would come out of the stage door and sign autographs for an hour. But it wasn't, I didn't go home and think I'm famous. You know, I'd go home and my kids would be like, winner, you know, I heard you lost another soccer game because you suck, right?

And it wasn't, that was, and that was fine, you know, it was healthy. So I didn't have that kind of pressure on me, even though it was on Broadway, which was a big deal in a way, perform it professionally. So it didn't really occur to me in a way. And so when I did Bill and Ted, like Lost Boys, you know, it was like mini fame, right? Like when you got that and it came out, were people starting to recognize you? Even the, I don't know if you talked about this with Kiefer and, oh yeah, I'll listen to that. You didn't.

But when I did Lost Boys, and they're probably too modest to talk about this. But when I did Lost Boys, it was a little different. It was like a bigger production than anything else I'd kind of encounter. and it felt special going in. And I know Kiefer and Jason felt the same way. It was just because of Joel, because of Marion Dardy, because of Warner Brothers, I felt like, wow, I'm part of something a little bigger than anything I've experienced. It was a small part, so I didn't think I was going to be famous off of that role.

I didn't have any idea the film was going to have the legs that it's had. But it felt special, you know, like, I'm sure Smallville was the same. And it's part of something that feels like this is good. When you get a break, you kind of know it's a break. You know that feeling? Yeah. You're kind of like, oh, this is different. This is like not the same shit that I've experienced before.

And so you know your life's going to change in some little way. Yeah. And I just knew it. Yeah, me too. I feel like most of the time you're like going, I don't know. I hope this is good. Yeah. I hope it turns out really great.

I hope this is. But when you're in something, that sort of innately you're like, I just know this is good. Yeah, it's a shift, right? It's weird. It's weird shift. It's like, wow, I'm on something that people will see. Yeah.

And it's not humorous. I mean, for me, it wasn't like, I'm so great or anything. It was just like you're like, you've been invited onto a bus or a train that's just riding on a really sweet track and you just know it. Yeah. And so I kind of knew it with Lost Boys, that that was kind of cool. But I wasn't going to get famous. I mean, I was going to have, like, you know, people like on the subway going,

yo, lost boy, right? Like, that was going to happen. Right. But when Bill and Tick came out, it was, it was a, it was not like nothing I'd ever experienced. And I realized at that moment that I had not ever really wanted that kind of public scrutiny. You realize you didn't want that. It really wanted it. It wasn't like I was, I wasn't ungrateful for it.

I was really grateful for how well the film did. And I was really grateful for the response to our performances. So it's kind of a weird abstract thing almost. It wasn't like, oh, fame, please go away. It wasn't like that. But it was just like, oh, shit. Now, like everywhere I go in the world, people know who I am all the time, like 24, 7. And what would people say to you?

I mean, people, honestly, because the roles are so sweet, they're generally super great. Like, it really wasn't a hassle in that way. Like, every once in a while you'd walk by a frat house where everyone was wasted and they would like chase you doing air guitar and like that was a pain in the house right yeah but that was not the normally the normal people like oh you know whatever they come up and they you know be really sweet if they say lines the movie i could care less um but it was a shift in that now i sort of was like oh this is what fame is i guess you know and i'd watch jewel brunner and i'd watch i'd been around famous people during the broadway shows people who were really famous not just us doing you know

the the roles that we had um and it was something suddenly, it was weird to be in that zone. Yeah. Did you audition for that? I did. Yeah, just like anyone else. How many times? A gazillion.

Really? Over, Keanu and I auditioned. We auditioned together the first time. Right. And then we got split off. And then we were auditioning against other people for a really long time. And then they pulled us back in. And they did this weird marathon day.

Like, I'm not even sure like the unions would allow it anymore because it's really kind of like that movie, they shoot horses, don't they a little bit? Right. Yeah. It was so kind of. sadistic and weird but like they did this like eight hour audition where like they just had all of the different bill and teds that were left auditioning until they were just they were just literally walk out and get rid of the ones they didn't want until it was literally just like three

of us left was it intimidating it was depressing because these were all of your friends like you know what it's like to audition like this is your friend group you know when you're young like when you're in your 20s in L.A none of you are from L.A. Like I was, like I was. was from New York. Kianna was from Toronto. No one else was from here. So we were all buddies because we were like all like had PTSD together. Yeah. Work in the audition circuit and living in some shithole and wherever we were. And then one by one they started like, you know, coming out and shooting them in the head. Like, you know, and then it was like Jesus. And then there was like maybe it wasn't enough of us left to think we had it, which was even weirder. It was like

maybe three of us that were all like eyeball. It was like the end of like the hateful eight or they're like a all eyeballing each other like all right well there's two parts here there's three of us that's not going to work but i don't know maybe none of us are going to get cast hollywood's fucking weird you know what other stars were up for this i really don't remember you don't remember anybody guys that were in the room i mean i only know because it's gotten written about since then like polly shore went out for it or different people say they went out for it um i i can't remember i mean it was it was a lot of a lot of my friend a lot of people from the business that I knew. And there was one actor who I don't, I don't remember his

name, because I didn't actually know him, who was like, who was really, really good, actually, in my opinion. Like, had I been the director, I probably would have cast him instead of one of us, who didn't end up getting it for some reason. But it was a weird, painful, strange process. But it was, you know, auditioning is, it's hard. It's like, and honest to God, like now these guys are all like my closest friends, like Chris and Ed and Scott, producer and like Steve Herrick like Steve was 27 years old you know Chris and Ed were when I was auditioning I thought oh these are the grownups they were maybe two or three years older than me they'd never how old were you 22 maybe count he was 23 and did you know how soon after that

audition that final with all that did you know not for a while I think what they did canna when I were talking about this recently trying to patch it together he's got a better memory than I do Mine is all effed up. But he's like that brother you have that, like, correct you all the time. I'm like, oh, remember what we do? He's like, no, actually what we did was blah, blah, like, oh, right, thank you. No, but he was like, his memory, I think was that they called us into Interscope and then they told us there. And I do remember, I've told the story a trillion times, it was not fresh anymore.

But I do remember vividly that day of being in the office as an inner scope and I knew I had the part and Keanu was all forlorn. And we'd kind of become friends by then because we'd been auditioning. for so long. And he played the basin road motorcycle and I played the basin road of motorcycle. He just became buddies. But he was all forlorn. I was like, what's your problem? He's like, well, I'm playing Ted. And I thought I was Bill. And I was like, dude, there was honest to God, there was no fucking difference between these two characters. I'm happy. I'm more than happy to swap. He was like, no, no, it's cool. That's also very. He's like, he doesn't want to like random high place. It's like, no, it's good. I'm good. Um, but, uh, that's amazing. But I think that's when

we kind of got told. Yeah. Wow. And how, again, did you know that this was, did you think, okay, this is something special? Honestly, no. Lost Boys was the movie where I was like, wow, I'm in a big hit movie with this giant director and like, you know, Jason was amazing and Kiefer's amazing, like these actors who were so good. And I came from New York theater. And so I knew Ed Herman already. I'd done a show in Manhattan Theater Club. I knew Ed. I knew Diane a little bit. I knew Bernard Hughes from the New York theater scene. I was just like, these were titans of like New York theater, which was my scene. I was like, what the fuck are they even doing here?

You know, in this movie with the oiled up sax player. And so, no, I, on Lost Boys, I was like, wow, this is Hollywood. Yeah. Like, I'm in a Hollywood movie, you know, and I'd be doing scenes with Keith and I'd be like, God, he's fucking great. You know, he's like, he's going to be a giant movie star. Yeah. And of course he was.

Bill of Ted was like the opposite. You're like, well, here we go. I would be like, dude, we'd be like literally waiting for a take to start. we look at each other and be like, no one's ever going to see this fucking movie. You thought that? No one is ever in a million years, ever going to see this fucking movie.

And we had a, like, we didn't disparage it. Like, we were having a great time. You tried. You kicked ass. We were like, but like Steve's in his 20s and the writers are in their 20s. And like no one gave,

it was this weird indie movie that no one gave a shit about it. And no one in town knew about. It was low budget. And it was like, you didn't get paid much. We didn't get paid hardly. I got paid $65,000 for Bill and Ted one. For three months.

Before commission and tax and everything. I think that money was spent on paying back my student loans and didn't touch my rent. Right. So it was like, this is great. We put our all into it. We had fun acting.

We cared about it. We thought the writing was fucking awesome. We thought Steve was great. But we didn't think, it was the era of HBO. We were like, this is going to be on HBO at like four in the morning. Like, this is going to be sandwich between like some T and horror movie. Goodbye Emmanuel.

Exactly. Yeah. No one is ever. And then sure enough, the movie, the movie got scrapped. So we were a call, we got a call from Scott, the producer going,

this is like, after we made it, after they put it, it's like, sorry guys, but no one's ever going to see this film. It's being shelved.

And we were like, oh, okay. And I went and did a little, like, period. Oops. Holy shit. Sorry, it's the ghost of,

of Dino de Laurentis. I went and did this little movie in Italy after that with Laura Dern and Eric Stoltz and they were like and we shot some of the same locations we'd just done Bill and Ted we shot in the same castle

that I did the the Darth Vader fight with and now I'm like playing this you know 19th century strange character with like in these fineries and all of the Bill and Ted signs were up and they were like what is this fucking movie

I was like no one's ever going to see this film right and it got shelved and it sat on a shelf for a year and then it got bought out at like in a fire sale by Nelson and then it became a hit. So it was a very not Hollywood, not we're going to make it trajectory. And it wasn't until the release weekend

when there was like a twofold ad and variety that showed me and Keanu sitting on top of piles of cash. And it was like Bill and Ted giant hit or whatever the wording was. And I was like, oh, okay. But it took all the way up until then to think it was going to have any kind of life. And they probably worked on your deals

for the next one right away. Yeah, we started talking about a C. because it would it had been two years because it you know took us took them a year to post and then it sat for another year so that's why there's a gap between the two and you and kin are still close friends yeah super i mean i you know i love him dearly he's like isn't that cool i mean i have some of those from from working with people in the past not a lot i don't have i don't have a lot you know you don't have a lot like you could become very bonded with a lot of folks on set and then you know kiss kiss goodbye yeah and it's not it isn't it seems to the outside world to be

ingenuous. It kind of, it isn't. You really do care about them while you're working, but you don't stay connected. Right. Yeah. And I worked with Keanu. I worked with him on a movie called Sweet November for a couple weeks. I remember that movie. And he was the, I played a transvestite and he was awesome. The sweetest. I mean, I rave about him. He is just, like, I was like, can I call you Kiantu? And he's like, call me whatever you want. You know, whatever you like. And he was just so sweet and it was like it was so humbling that's such a huge movie star is you know you hope that they're cool you hope and sometimes they're not yeah your heroes are not like but he genuinely I feel like that yeah he's he is a genuinely good guy but you know it's it's we came up doing

theater young we came from crazy artist families we both love good playwriting and good novels and we have just have a lot in common off screen right um but um You know, I'm happy that he's kept his sanity through the journey that one has. Were you surprised that he wanted to do the third installment? No, because we all developed it together. So you were like, it was a great process. We were having a barbecue at my house the night Chris and had pitched it to us. So we're just all, we've all been friends forever.

Wow. So we were just at my place eating steak that I had cooked. And Chris never looked. We got an idea for, and that was a dozen years before we made it. so it tells you how hard that tells you like how little interest there is in Hollywood for Bill and Ted movies usually that's crazy so yeah did you really were you at first when you first kind of pitched it where you're like ah come on no it's kind of the inverse because those guys don't none of us more of the mindset that we were ever going to make

a third so it was not joking that it was almost like we have this idea for how to bring the guys back if anybody wanted to bring them back and we actually all thought it was a great idea. It was a sort of like Christmas carol thing of just like what if Bill and Ted you just come in on them right now in their lives and they are exactly the age they're at and their dads and they're not trying to be 16 and their failures and they have to go find the song they were supposed to write in all these different iterations of space time. And we were like, that's a great idea because it's, you know, let's be a good actor. Grantly, the first thing you think is like, can I actually play

this, right? When you hear an idea, like, is this do it, like, can I do this without making a complete ass of myself? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's playable. Right. But I just get to be me. I don't have to try to be Bill at 16 or whatever.

It's ludicrous. And it has heart. And so I think we thought, look, if we can pull it off and we all produced it. So it wasn't like, we all then had to go to work. And like, you know, Reeves is, is, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to talk about him in ways he probably doesn't like me. You talk about, but he's, he's very good at producing, you know, it's like you don't get to be on that level.

Like, you know, you know, there's any of the folks you meet who, who act on that level, they're not just actors, you know, they're producers, they're writers. They don't take credit a lot, but they're like, they're in their writing scenes. They're, they know what the director needs to do. Like, they're, they're very hard working in that way. Yeah. And getting three off the ground was very hard work for all, all of us. Was it fun, though?

It was super fun, and it was lovely, and it was, it was our own animal to play with. So it wasn't like drudgery, but it wasn't easy. Yeah. How did you, I know, because you were always directing. You went to film school at a young age. You were doing that. Went and you, and I know you directed Freaked. I co-directed with Tom Stern.

Right, with Tom Stern, your good buddy from New York. Yeah, they guys became friends and moved out to L.A., and we're doing tons of shorts and things like that and working together. But you, you were, you started doing commercials and things like that. Yeah. But did you always think, because Freak. was like, again, reviews were awesome. And then it became a cult hit

and then Entertainment Weekly called it top 10 comedies of the 90s. Yeah, it was very sweet. That had to feel really good. Yeah, it did because the film was hard to make and it didn't get a big release because it was very weird and it got sort of caught up in a changeover at the studio.

But it was great to make and I love the life that it has today. But I knew I was going to stop acting for a beat when that was done. And I didn't act again for over 10 years, like 15 years, I don't think. Did it upset you? Was that what it was?

No, I was done after Bill and Ted, too. I kind of acted and freaked because it helped get it made. Because we sort of capitalized on the success of Bill and Ted to get the film financed. I mean, Ricky is honestly the least interesting part. I mean, it's Elijah's movie in my opinion. It's Randy Quay's movie. Right. But it got the film made.

So I knew I was done. I knew I needed a break, but I knew I was going to come back to acting at some point. I just didn't know when. Right. but you started doing documentaries like in the last how many years you've been doing this about a dozen now about 12 years and how many documentaries have you done i'm crappy at stuff like this i'd say seven maybe eight i mean it seems to me tell me wrong that making a documentary is actually harder than making a film it's almost like you know the ending but you don't exactly know the

ending in the beginning how are you going to start this movie and things change constantly and then you find that information which changes this is the arc or whatever storyline. It seems like it's a lot of tedious work. It's if you like research, it's not tedious. You love research. I love research. And if you like your subject, it's not tedious

because you're just doing a deep dive into that subject and you live with that subject. I would say, I consider myself a character actor and I've always liked researching characters. And it's been a very similar discipline for me as character acting work, you know, you just, you, when you're acting, you know this, you know where you're going in terms of the script, obviously. But the whole secret to acting is to unlearn that, right? Like, is to have spontaneity and to sort of not know where you're going.

And docs are very similar in that way. So I found myself more attuned to them than I thought I was going to be like, oh, I can do this. I research the shit out of it. And then I just trust the process is going to take me where I need to go, just like acting. Right. You know, So it's more similar to acting than it is to directing narrative. Wow. I never looked for me. Yeah. Well, I've never done it so I wouldn't know.

Yeah. The Panama Papers, trust machine, the Frank Zappa documentary, which it was the first time the family gave you like personal like archives of, and I mean, they must have really trusted you with what you were doing. I did two things. One is I was willing to walk away happily. Gail's tough customer and I didn't, I didn't walk in with any arrogance that she was going to say yes.

So I was ready to just walk away. But I also, I was willing to sort of earn her trust and to explain what my vision was. And it happened to align with more of their sentiments, which I didn't know going in because I didn't know what their sentiments were. So that was just the luck of the draw when you're, it's like auditioning and you get the part. It's that sort of thing of like you happen to be what they're looking for. Right. You know. Man, it's just awesome.

I mean, what got you really into so fascinated with the internet? And because it is fascinating. Yeah. But like you really break it down. like you started to get into the web and all this stuff and Napster and all these things throughout the last decade, right? Yeah. And it just that was where your focus completely went. Yeah, I found myself, you know, when I got out of the public eye in 93, I really wanted out of the public eye. I really wanted privacy. And I thought this was kind of a weird thing until I met Will Wheaton and

his story is so similar to mine. He was in the podcast. He's amazing. It was amazing. Yeah, he's so smart and such a lovely human being, but he did something similar to, like, once I started interviewing child actors for my doc, Mara Wilson, similar, not the internet per se, but like sort of leaving the industry intentionally sort of gathering herself, finding her own vision and coming back. Will did go into technology in a much more professional way than I did. But Will and I both kind of found the internet as a refuge from the public eye. And that's a very similar thing that I found real sympathico with him on because I found these internet communities in the 80s that were even before I was while I was still acting where I just felt comfortable I was anonymous I could speak freely I was not known

I was not seen I didn't know there were internet communities in the 80s there were there was no web yet so there were like sort of bbs use us net groups and and they look like text groups basically but they were robust there were thousands of people there you'd make friends you could share content just like what you could end up doing just over dial up so for me the internet was a refuge. It was a place to go where I felt sort of safe and anonymous and that grew into all the technology stuff. Uh, the YouTube effect doc. Yeah, that's the next doc that's coming out. This premier to Tribeca and got great reviews. Yeah, we've done good so far. Thank God. The film takes viewers on a timely and gripping journey inside the cloistered world of YouTube

and parent Google. How much, again, how much research on this? A lot. Watch the trailer guy for this, the YouTube effect. It looks amazing. I can't wait to see. Where will it be coming out? I'm not allowed to mention the distributor. We're closing our deal right now, but it will be coming out. We will be mentioning that very soon.

And it will be coming out in early 2023, like in the right after New Year, basically. What's your handle, by the way? They could always follow you. You should follow him anyway. Yeah, I'm winter on Twitter. So that's easy. Winter on Twitter. Yeah, just my name, winter.

Oh, just at winter. Yeah, just at winter. At Winter, you got that? Yeah. It wasn't taken? No, they, I didn't seek it out. They actually, I was working on, I think it was on Bill and Ted Press. And one of the lovely people from Twitter film or whatever, like, you know, winter's available.

Do you want it? I was like, sure, I'll take it. Wow. And then I'm on Instagram. I think I'm Alex Winter without, I think it's ALX, W-I-N-T-E-R. So on those, I mean, I'm mostly Twitter is kind of where I hang out. Right. It's pretty easy to find my stuff.

and we will definitely be blasting that out. What do you want to do next? Is it another doc? Is it a feature film? Do you want to go back into feature films? I'm developing a feature I'd really like to do. The feature world, as you know now, is pretty difficult. It's either superheroes, occasional horror movie or docs.

And this is an indie drama. So like, you know, good luck. I'll probably be back with you in 10 years talking about the same project. And then I left. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still working on that.

I have not given up hope. But I'm always developing docs. I have more docs I'm developing. And I'm acting. I just produced a film that I co-starred in for Shudder. I love Shudder. Yeah, with Jonah Ray Rodriguez. What is it?

It's called Destroy All Neighbors. And I'm on Shudder now? No, we just finished shooting. So it won't be out probably until next holiday. Destroy all neighbors is it early dark? It's a horror comedy. And it's very much a comedy with horror. I play a character buried under prosthetic makeup.

amazing so I don't look anything like how hard is that I love it so I get claustrophobic I don't think thankfully yeah I really do enjoy it which I think is probably not mentally right I think your response is the correct one the healthy one yeah yeah yeah yeah but I do intend to do more acting um and I'm yeah I'm developing a bunch of stuff but we're looking we're always doing doc so we're looking at the next what's your favorite doc of all time or top three um that is really hard Did you see the one, which takes place in 1969, and it's like a boat race across the world, around the world or whatever, and like this one guy who's more like a weekend sailor, it's called Deepwater, I think, and he gets on there and craziness ensues.

Like, you know, where is he? What is he doing? Wait a minute. He's leading the pack. People leave at different times. It's a matter of how long it takes you. It's breathtaking. Oh, I love that.

It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, it was like, um, yeah, that's amazing. I love, I mean, I love a lot of old docs. I love, um, uh, give me shelter and yeah, I love Harlan County USA. I love a lot of the political docs, um, uh, Brett Morgan's new Bowie doc is amazing. Is that good? It's really, really good.

It's, it's, you know, also full archive access. Um, so he really had a deep dive. And I know from personal experience, how hard that is to shape story out of that much media. Um, that's, it's a really beautiful film. The Beatles doc. amazing that was nine hours very moving i wanted to be 20 hours yeah really moving i just think to watch artists at work like that and and to see the struggles and to see the spontaneity and to see songs just get pulled out of thin air um amazing i love when george harrison in the middle of it says

they're all talking they're going to take a lunch break and george just goes okay i think i'm going to quit now i'm going to quit the band you're like what and he just walks out yeah You're like, holy shit. And Ringo comes off the best. Yeah. Like Ringo's just like, what are we doing? Yeah. Whatever.

Yeah. And Yoko's just sitting there weirdly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what is she doing? Yeah. Isn't anybody getting annoyed while they're trying to come up with stuff? Yeah.

And she's just staring and sitting there. Like, it's just so weird. Yeah. But it's great. And you realize no Ringo, no band, right? Like, I mean, you just watch him whole, like quietly without ego, just hold that whole damn thing together. He holds it together. never had as much respect for him as I do after watching the stock.

Yeah, me too. He's the hero. Like, yeah, he's like, this is like a genius, you know. All right, this is, this is, this is, this is my patron. Uh, my patrons. You have a patron account? Uh, yeah, I do. You do.

Yeah. Where can they go to support you? Oh, no, I don't have my own. You know, I just, I just follow and support folks on it. Oh, but this supports the podcast. Go to patreon.com slash inside you. These are the top tiers. They get to ask questions.

So here we go. Shit talking with Alex winner. Big Stevie-W, this is rapid fire. What had a bigger effect on your career? Lost Boys, Best Vampire movie ever, or Bill and Ted? Bill and Ted. Yes. Brandy D.

Was it easy for you to jump back into your character and sync back with Keanu? Sync back with Keanu, yes. Jump back into character did actually take an enormous amount of work. But it was fun, but it wasn't easy per se. What did you do? Did you have to like just watch the old movies? I trained for like a year. I didn't actually.

I was afraid I'd mimic myself too much, but I did a lot of a lot of physical work, just trying to find this guy's body. They're strange guys. Did you make yourself laugh? Yes. Did you laugh on set together constantly? Constantly. It's clowning.

Who makes who laugh more? I don't know. I don't want to be immodest and say I make Keanu laugh more because I laugh my ass off the whole time. But at the end of the first week, we looked at each other and we were like, because we hadn't acted together in so long. We just hang out. It was like, it's really fun acting together.

You really enjoy it. It's just really fun. It's just we just rip. We finish each other's sentences. It's just, it's like. being in a band where you, like, where you groove. Is he sort of like Uncle Keanu to your kids? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. They all know him. Yeah. He comes in visits. Yeah. Yeah. It's always fun to sort of watch them get old enough to realize who he is because they never have no fucking idea.

Otherwise, until they get to a certain age, you're like, oh, shit. Oh, it's that guy. Oh, really? But by then he's been around like forever. It's, you know, too late. Yeah. Leanne, what was it like working with George Carlin? Did he crack any jokes when the camera wasn't rolling?

Not at all. He was very somber offset. Very. It seems like that. I watched the George Carlin documentary that. Judd Apatow just produced. Yeah. Lovely man, but not like a yucked up guy at all.

Kind of dark, huh? Dark and just very somber, you know, very sober, quiet guy. Were you bummed? No, I liked that because he was just so, he was so, he was very sincere and open. He wasn't cold. He was very, very warm. He was just quiet. Did he ever want to like go, hey, get my number.

Let's keep in touch. We did. I kept in touch with George. You did? Yeah. Yeah, we both did. Yeah. That's cool.

That is really cool. Danny, awesome freaking guest, she says about you. Are there any directors in particular that influenced Alex's own style as a director? Oh, God, so many, man. I mean, geez, like all the way from Chaplin to David Lynch, right? I mean, there's just so many great filmmakers out there. Who's your favorite director of all time? You had to narrow it down?

Probably Orson Wells. Orson Wells. Yeah, or Curasawa, one of the two. Those two. We were just talking about Carasawa. Yeah. Our last guest was talking about Carasawa. Yeah.

What about Kubrick? I love Kubrick. I mean, you can't not love Kubrick. What's your favorite horror movie of all time? The thing. You have the poster here. Signed by Kurt. The carpenter thing would be my favorite.

Oh, man. How good was that? Yeah. It's just you, it's not ever not great no matter when you watch it. It's one of those. The best scene is when they're checking the blood. Amazing.

Right. And they get to the one guy. Can you get me out of this fucking chair? Oh my God. It's the best, right? It comes out of nowhere. Talk about a film that's like theater. I mean, it's like watching a Broadway play.

It's like 12 Angry Men with Gore. Yeah, and once his name was in it, the guy who goes, if you're suffering from Diabetes, get yourself some Quakeros. That's a good one. Wilfra Bremley? Will for Brimley? Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Rosh, tell me about a time you struggled to keep control of a set and how you were able to work through it. Oof. Gosh, that has happened all the time. You know, there are times when you're at your best and you do that, and there are times when you were not at your best when you do that one. It's 2 o'clock in the morning and you're very tired. Have you raised your voice?

I have and it's always the biggest bummer for me because I don't like it. You don't like yelling. I don't like it. I don't want my ADs doing it. I don't want anyone on set doing it. So when you do it, you're like, oh, right, I'm a human being. Now, you get me out of this fucking tear! Exactly right.

That's it. That's amazing. Yeah. DJ Kento, I want to know about shooting freaked. What was it like? That movie is becoming more and more cult lately and I love it. Oh, that's very sweet. It was amazing.

We were 25 years old. We'd never shot 35 mil before. We were making a big studio movie with an incredible cast with an army encampment of like four different giant makeup effects companies that each required massive tents. It was like working on a circus with Randy Quaid. It was like, you know, one of the great actors. And it was just like a pinch yourself thing every day. It really was. It was some, it was hard as hell, you know.

And I was in all that makeup, which was hard. And I wasn't getting any sleep. and the thing was ripping my mouth apart, whatever. But it was an extraordinary experience. Randy Quaid. Yeah. Did you see sort of like, if you look back, can you see like, I could see how that happened?

Yes. Was he, you can. What was it about him that when you were watching him that was just a little bit off? I love him and I don't know him well enough to like be presumptuous about what's going on in there. Right, right, right. But I could see the beginning of what was going on in there. There's just like, and it's, it's, it's.

He's so good. He's such a talented actor. He's such a smart guy. He has such a great imaginative instinct creatively. Like when you're working with, when you're acting with him, he's just going to go somewhere you're not quite expecting.

But there was always that kind of like, it could careen off the tracks at any second feeling, which in our film was exactly what the character is. In fact, in our film he careens off the tracks. Right. But he was very controlled. But there was always that like,

you know, sometimes you'd be in a scene and be like, wow. Like this guy, like any, any volume number higher and it's going to almost be scary, you know? Really? And like his views and things like that, you remember them being like, oh, nothing, nothing like that. No, not ideologically, just, just behaviorally.

Right. Yeah, ideal, I mean, he was a very, very smart, interesting. I always love Randy Quaid. Yeah, he wasn't like, he wasn't in the least bit sort of off-kilter in his ideology when I was working with him. Who is, who have you been star-struck by? Well, I started very young. So I was star-struck by Yule Brunner, you know, who hired me.

He was really directing those shows. He just didn't take credit. So he was at my audition. He hired me. He worked with me. Did you love Westworld? And I loved Westworld and I loved King and I. I loved all that stuff.

You know, when I went and did Sandy, the show with Sandy, it was kind of the same thing. And then you start to, you know, realize that they were just human beings. But there's been, you know, there's been actors I've worked with that have just kind of like, you just go, oh, shit, you know, I'm working with this person. I felt that way a little bit with Bernard Hughes. Like with some of the really big theater folks that I've worked with, we're just like, wow, these are just Titans. Right. I don't often feel that way anymore because I've just been around the industry so long.

You don't get intimidated. I don't really. We're all, we've all kind of been in it. And I know how hard the whole game is from all sides and that everybody's a person trying to like move along and survive, you know. So I don't usually get intimidated unless someone's a bully. Yeah. You know, which has you had that? Of course.

What do you do? How do you deal with a bully? When I was younger, I would sort of shut down and kind of, you know, just avoid the hell out of them. Today, I'm just, you know, you deal with them like you would somebody who flips you off in a traffic and infraction, right? Well, what do you do? Say, fuck you back? No, you sort of, you try to minimize the situation and you do conflict resolution of the best of your ability that doesn't work. Then you tell them to fuck off, I guess that's right?

I guess that's door number three, right? Yeah, I guess that is door number three. I mean, it's happened in my career. Have you ever told someone off? No, not on set. I just think, I don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't want to have that color my own experience.

Yeah. Do you get any anxiety? Sure, of course. Do you deal with anxiety? Yeah, I mean, I meditate every day. Every day. I'm that guy. Yeah, every morning.

That's what I've been doing for the last six weeks. Yeah, yeah. I think it has been helping me. It's hugely helpful. I've been doing that for a long time. It's very, very helpful. And so, yeah, of course, there's a million different things that want, you know, a lot of, you know, very, I work out a lot and very intense.

diet and exercise and all that kind of stuff. Vegan? Vegetarian? I'm not. No, I would love to say I was. I think we're all headed that way, but I'm not. What do you eat every day? Like for breakfast? What would someone like you eat? I'm normally eating like a protein shake or something relatively healthy and we're not a heavy carb load. And you really? And you make your own shakes? I make my own shakes. And then for lunch? Like salad maybe. Again, not a heavy. If like, if I'm going to have carbs, I'll try to do that at lunch, but not a lot because then I'm bogged down for

the rest of the day. My wife makes fun of me because when I'm on set, I'll often tell the caterer's like, don't overdo turkey because I don't want like the whole crew like zonked out on trip to fan. Yeah. Oh shit. And so those things I think they matter. I grew up with ADHD and like I so I learned, you know, what I need, what my brain chemistry needs to to be at its best and diet's very important for ADHD. Do you want your kids to act? Uh, I do not. I, you know, honestly don't care what they do after college, but I really don't. How old are they now? Well, my, My eldest just graduated college. He's a painter, he just graduated from art school.

Amazing. Really great. He's really, they're all really lovely. My middle kid is jazz trumpet. He's at college right now for jazz trumpet. Wow. And my youngest, thankfully, is just a snot-nosed kid who likes to play, you know, on Discord. And I'm very grateful for that.

And none of them are in the business. Do you play instruments? I played bass for many, many years. That's right. Yeah. And then I had kids and I was like, I just want to, I do too many things. I need to stop. Something's got to fall off the train.

truck. Did you and Cano ever play together? All the time. No way. All the time. Still? We haven't. He busts my chops for not having a bass anymore. So do my kids. If I had a base, we'd be playing still. We used to, I mean, it was really hilarious, but all through Bill and Ted one, we had condos on, you know, one over the other. And we would just go and jammed on dual base every night after we shot. Wow. And we just jammed and jammed. Did you ever play songs, like covers? Um, yeah, we would play stuff, but like we were both playing bass. bass. Right. So you can't really, you know, it's kind of, you're a little limited. Boom. Bob, boom. Yeah. Just coming back and forth. Yeah. Usually jamming or you have like a song on

that you're jamming too or whatever. He never, you never hear about Canada or you like you ever getting in trouble. Really? We're pretty, I mean, we're both very, we're both very into the work, you know. Yeah. We really do love the work. I mean, I love the work. And you never let alcohol or drugs get and interfere with that. Not in that way. I mean, not that one has a choice. Right. I think, you know, I don't really view it as, you know, I don't really view addiction as a choice, obviously, but, you know, I look, I've lived life and I've dealt with my, my life and I've gotten to a point in my life and my age were, we're all as well. Yeah. But all is not always well. And life sends you on curves and you've got to adjust to them.

And I've certainly had plenty of those. Man, you, I wish, I got to see things the way he does. Life. I mean, I just, I mean, you've done it. you've done it and you're doing it and you're still excited and passionate about all of it yeah i'm great i'm grateful for that i guess i am like i do feel very fortunate i'm sure you do too it's like it's a tough business and to be in it and do things in it you know you feel very you have a lot of you end up with a lot of gratitude on a good day yeah you know i feel very grateful

that i've gotten to do the acting i have and the directing i have and it's a crazy business you know check out the documentaries the YouTube effect comes out sometime in the next couple months early 2023 early 2023 it looks awesome watch the trailer the YouTube effect also the Zappa what it's called Zappa it's called Zappa it's on Hulu the doc on Hulu yeah uh what else should they say um well there's a lot out there Panama Papers is on Hulu showbiz kids is on HBO um besides YouTube effect that's out what's your favorite doc that you've done that you're like this is my best work. I really, they're like the kids.

I love them all. Like, I mean, Zappa is probably creatively the most satisfying showbiz kids is thematically the most personal. It was almost an autobiography. And that's, you know, in my heart, that's kind of like my favorite. I'm just so grateful that I got to do that. Talk about the industry from within the industry and such a, and such a, everyone was so vulnerable.

Yeah. But, but look, I'm really proud of these things I've acted and then are coming out. The thing I did for Lexi, this. movie, Absolute Dominion for Netflix. It'll come out next year and destroy it. Absolute dominion. Yeah. It's really cool.

On Netflix. Yeah. All right. And you just go to At Winter and, you know, you'll find stuff. You'll follow up of him promoting it. And what else? The other movie you're producing. Destroy all neighbors will come out.

Destroy all neighbors. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. On Shutter. Yeah. You know I have Shutter. Yeah. This has been a real treat.

I appreciate you coming over and, uh, I feel like I know you. Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, we're in the same foxhole, right? Yeah. I'm going to bring you a bass guitar and we're going to jam. All right. We'll get Gus.

Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah. My kids are already pissed that I don't play. So it's got to happen. Got to get back into it, man. Yeah.

It's just time. Good seeing you. You too, man. All right. Yeah. I love his stories. And you can tell he's very fond of Keanu. Yeah.

You know, just a good friendship they've had over the years. And he, uh, what didn't he say is his son's like Keanu's godson? I believe. Yeah. Because we just didn't listen to it right now But something like that Or he calls him Uncle Kiana or something like that I'm sure if you listen you'll know

And you're telling me I'm wrong I wonder if I didn't bring it up Because it might be a product he wants to forget But because he's doing that whole documentary On YouTube and like the Tech world Yeah and all that But he directed a movie for Smosh

The YouTube personalities While we were all working at the same company Called Defy Media which went defunct in 2018 Yeah But it was like it was a movie like it was just these two guys from Sacramento who have been doing YouTube videos forever and they have like a social media empire and they made a movie it's not great right but uh Alex Winter directed it really he did and I wonder if that got

him started on his um or if that was part of his quest to uncover some YouTube conspiracies because he was deep in it and it was like a that was an interesting company and he's a great director his docs are just exceptional yeah so uh you you know and look i'm sure you're going to do some stuff that's just like you know not mainstream or a little bit whatever but uh it was interesting i didn't bring it up because i didn't he might want no one he might not want to remember that one but you know what we all remember our you know things that didn't you know i love my movie back in the day i think it's hilarious a lot of people love it but then there's half that probably don't think it's too raunchy it's too whatever

i made the movie i wanted to make you know and i learned from it And that's all you can do. That's good. That's all you can do is learn. Yeah. Learn for your mistakes. Yeah. Huh.

Huh. Anywho. I hope you guys like that. Subscribe, write a review. Tell us what you think. Follow us on the handles. And I think that's it. We're going to the cons.

So look on Twitter, Columbus this weekend. Then Pittsburgh. We're doing Smallville Nights. Come join. Sunspin.com. The new album, you can get it signed. We'll be streaming eventually. But if you want a cool keepsake,

autographed or not it's there go to the inside of you online store for cool merch and all that thanks for all of you and your listening listenership uh really appreciate it uh we went to a concert the other night we went to the depesh mode cover band i dragged about 15 friends well it was fun wasn't it it was fun yeah i mean it's just i'm never going to seek out depesh mode independently so that for me was like going to a depish mode concert that's as close as i'm right so yeah it seemed like everybody had a really good time it was fun we had like a nice little space yeah except one friend i won't say who it is but he was on a date oh no yeah don't say his name oh no i heard though yeah but on a date and he says i'm going to go to the bathroom and he goes to

the bathroom and he comes back and she's gone and he texts her and says hey where are you she says I'm in an Uber. I had to leave. Just left. Just sucked. And I had a really weird thing, too. So I went and bumped into my ex-girlfriend. And I thought we were on great terms like we are.

Oh, she at the Depeche Mode. Yeah. She was there. I'll just say she was there. I'm not going to say what she was doing or whatever. And, you know, she had emailed me a couple, like, maybe a couple of, like, maybe a a couple weeks ago and said, you know, just nice. And he was like, I still want to, you know, I hope we could be friends and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, yeah, of course. Great. So I see her. And I just walked up and I go, hey. And she looked at me and she froze in her eyes. It lit up like I think she was happy to see me, but then goes, hey, I hope you have a good time tonight. And I go, uh, okay.

And I just walked away. I could tell she did not want to. engage. I can just tell. And then I talked to my buddy and goes, her boyfriend was right behind her with her that I didn't see. And supposedly he was jealous of me. I guess because she talked about our friendship. I don't know. That and also if your ex just kind of shows up and you're not emotionally geared up for it. She knew I was going to be there. I mean, she knew I was going to be there. I go every year. I should probably hoping that there were enough people there that it was just it was just kind of like I didn't know that person it was just so weird because she's so nice and friendly and we

were on we're on great terms but all of a sudden I was like oh my god why do I feel like I'm a weird out here it just was really awkward and I thought for sure she'd send me an email the next day apologizing saying oh my god I'm so sorry I didn't know what to do because you know I was with my blah blah And I didn't get that. And I was just like, huh, well, I'm not reaching out. I'm giving you a fuck it. That's life. That is life.

It is. It was just, it was a fun, comfortable moment. And that is a little slice of life. But it didn't take me away from having a great time. I had a great time with my friends and I let it go pretty quickly. It was a good time. Yeah, it was a good time. So, hey, thanks for being here, Ryan.

Thank you for having me. Thanks for watching. I am Michael Rosenbaum, the Hollywood Hills of California. You got to read the patrons. But first, I'm going to read the top tier patrons. here we go i couldn't do the show that you know that uh thank you for sticking around you know i noticed i mean it's sort of like a weird environment and uh economically and there's a lot of people that have hung around and stuck with me and then there's you know i could see it some some have left

and i'm like oh shoot you know what can i do to keep them around i guess it's like you know i hope i'm not doing anything wrong and i hope they're sticking around because they love supporting the podcast and hopefully it's enough and the patron you're enjoying and i try to make the boxes plentiful and shout outs nancy d lea sara v little lisa ukeko jill e b bryan h nico p just saw b at the depatch mode concert nice neko p robert b jason w s sophy m rojee josh she joshua d jennifer and stacy l jamaul f jennel b chimbledon suprimo 99 more san diego m chad w leann p jane r maya p mattie s belinda and chris uh r h h h Dave. H. Correct. Sheila. G. Brad. D. Ray. A. Correct. Tabitha. T. Tom. N. Lillianna. A. Talya. M. Betsy. Chad. D. L. Dan. Dan. I don't know. N. Big Stevie. W. Angel. M. M. Rianan. C. Corey. L. K. Dev. Nexon. Michelle. K. A. Jeremy. R. C.

correct gavinator david c yes john c b brandy l d yeah yeah just remember david c john b brandy d you won't camille s joey m eugene and lea nicky g cori patricia hether l jake b megan t mel s orlando c caroline r christine s i don't know if uh christin was on there christin keo you on there i'm just saying her name anyway because I love her. Sarah S. Eric H. Shane R. M.R. Andrew M. Zaduichi, 77. Oracle. Karina N. Amanda R. Amanda S. Gen B. Kevin E. Stephanie K. Lina 82. Jarrell. Billy S. ADHD rocks. Todd. Luna R. And I believe that's all I have.

Also want to say if you, I think at this point, probably at the end of the episode, the Patriot, people have left and the patrons are sticking around a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. So, guys. Guys, I love you. I don't know what else to say. Thank you for sticking with me and sticking with the podcast. Hopefully, I'm doing this at least till next July or August. So hopefully if, hopefully we'll stick around. Hopefully we'll get to do another year after that. We'll see. But thanks for your help. From the Hollywood Hills in Hollywood, California. I'm Michael Rosenbaum. I'm Ryan. Dave to the camera, Ryan. Bye. We love you. And remember it, Ryan? yeah what always hold on to small no no what be be good to yourself be good to yourself be good to yourself it's most important it's hard sometimes just be good to yourself give yourself a break we'll see next week football season is here oh man believe has the podcast to enhance your football experience from the pros one of the most interesting quarterback rooms to College.

Michigan is set at eight and a half wins. To fantasy. If you feel that way, why didn't you trade them? Become a better fan and listen to the football podcasts from Believe. Just search Believe. That's B-L-E-A-V podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.