Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - BILLY DEE WILLIAMS: Lando’s Significance to Star Wars Critique, Chemistry with Diana Ross, & Being Innately Smooth

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Billy Dee Williams (Star Wars, Brian’s Song) joins us this week to reflect on his incredible legacy in this industry - from the importance of his casting as Lando Calrissian in Star Wars, to his chemistry with Diana Ross, and why he’s steadfast with his unique creative approach rather than playing the victim. Truly appreciate Billy Dee coming on the podcast as a self admitted ‘private person,’ his honestly about dark times in life and the idea of not dwelling on the negatives was refreshing. Tons of stories about the golden age of Hollywood in this episode, hope you enjoy and make sure to check out his book What Have We Here? Thank you to our sponsors: 🛍️ Shopify: https://shopify.com/inside 🚀 Rocket Money: https://rocketmoney.com/inside 🟠 Discover: https://discvr.co/3Cnb1V8 __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou 👕 Inside Of You Merch: https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🤣 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod 🌐 Website: https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Hi, Ryan. Hi, Michael. Good to see you. Good to see you. Long day today. Long day. Yeah, I mean, we started at 1030.

You're here, 11. And it's really not that long of a day, but we do so much talking and things that it feels like a really long day. I'm going to be tired when I leave, yeah. Oh, I'll be tired. I'll need a nappy nap. A little nappy nap. Yeah. A little nipy nap.

A great guest today. Before we get into it, if you're here just for Billy D. Williams, You don't know who I am. You don't know the podcast. You don't care. I urge you, I just ask, if you like the podcast, you enjoy it, follow me and write a review and hopefully support this little podcast inside of you. I really appreciate it.

Our handles are at Inside of You podcast on the Facebook and Instagram at Inside of You pod on the Twitter. If you go to my Instagram at the Michael Rosenbaum in my link tree, you'll see cons that are coming up, conventions with me and Tom Well. in smallville nights we're doing a live podcast in may which will be on there soon and tons of other stuff you can go to in the inside of you online store if you want cool merch uh like smallville ship keys and lexmus scripts signed by me and funco pops and a bunch of other cool stuff um and quickly it's also on my instagram but uh on my link tree rosy's puppy fresh breath new product if you want

your dog's breath to smell good well rosy's puppy fresh breath on amazon get it it's odorless tasteless you just put it in your dog's water boom it's that easy um so if you want to support that there's also a little picture of me and my doggy's on there and uh last but not least thank you to all the patrons who support this podcast patreon.com slash inside of you if you want to join and support the podcast and give back uh your what keep the show going i'll send you a message and there's so many fun perks so check out patreon.com slash inside of you we've got a great episode today ryan we sure do yeah this is he came into the house he was sitting right where you are i know billy d williams lando calisian and he was epic you are going to love this episode hopefully as much as i did

and ryan he took pictures with us i could tell in the beginning he was like what am i doing who's this guy I've never seen him before. I don't know inside of me or inside of you. And I could tell I slowly got him to warm up like he started to like me. I felt like, ah, I think he likes me now. I think he says, okay, this guy's all right. He's got a sense of humor. And I think he liked me.

Maybe he thinks I was an asshole. I don't know. I really, really appreciated having him here. And he was just such a gentleman, so articulate, friendly, talks about his new book and so much more you want to get this book to the inside story of billy d williams and without further ado let's get inside of the legend my hero billy d williams it's my point of you you're listening to inside of you with michael rosenbaum inside of you is brought to you by quince I love quince, Ryan.

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broadway you're an accomplished artist you have work in the smithsonian I mean, I have every right to be enamored. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Yeah. This is just, this is fantastic. The first thing you said in here, you said, which I don't know how I believe, but maybe artists, maybe are like this because you're a real artist.

You said you're disorganized. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a secret to my success. Really? Yeah, disorganization. So I'm OCD, so everything has to be in place. Well, I'm a walking absurdity. Why?

What do you mean? Well, I don't know. It's a kind of a whimsical kind of bit of tacit humor, I guess, that I sort of rely on, I guess, for most of my life. So you don't care if something's out of place, or? Not really, no. I think you can learn a lot from things being out of place. probably more than you realize yeah my therapist tells me

that as long as your life is organized around you then you can do your work you can focus if it's everything's a mess well that's why I surround myself with people like Marcy and you've been with the same woman pretty much since 72 oh Marcy and I have known for each other

over what how long Marcy 38 years Yeah 38 years, yeah She's been with you Yeah, she's a She's a wonderful human being Well, you look fantastic

Do you always Is that something since Was it was Inside you since you were young Did your mother instill that on you Where you look good when you go out You look nice Well, they were pretty fashionable people

My mother and my father My grandmother and the people I come from I always remember one thing I was talking about it the other day as a matter of fact I was saying about my mom and dad mommy and daddy

were always very fashionable they always tried to I had a twin sister a lady and they always kept us looking presentable yeah and even when they had shoes that had holes in their shoes and they had to put paper

in there in the holes to make it look like there's no hole yeah to fill it up to fill it up yeah wow well we all grew up in New York City so there's obviously a lot of inclement weather snow and rain and stuff like that but anyway they were yeah I think you know even Mother's Day I talk about it in the book, as a matter of fact. And Mother's Day was always the corsage, you know, the little flowers and all that sort of stuff. So we were very conscious of that kind of. It made us, my sister and I, very conscious and aware of, you know, the whole idea of looking, being presentable, so to speak. I love that you're, you were so worldly.

It feels like your family, like, instead. like whether it's acting or art or all these things that was always going on in your house well i come from a very creative uh background i mean uh i was never a thug was always a uh a product of a lot of creativity um my life has been a really essentially a an eclectic a life life you know for early in my at a very early point in my life. I mean, to be on Broadway at the age of six and seven years of it and a quart-file musical with Lataylena. I mean, at that stage in my life, I mean, it was a kind of experience. I think most people don't have, you know. Nobody has that. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine. It's seven years old. You're on Broadway. I mean, or your parents sort of very loving and,

you know. Well, they were wonderful. see that's i like hearing that they were they were wonderful people if uh if i have to come back to this life again those i would want those uh people to be my parents and i want my father mommy daddy grandmommy and uh lady those are the four people that have shaped my life so wow and how so i mean how do they shape your life what was it about them well it was just wonderful human beings and uh well certainly my grandmother who was from the british west indies who never became an american citizen always remained a british a british subject and she used to sit around the house and singing rule britannia brittania brittania rule the waves britain never never shall be

slaves so you got that aspect right and then of course you got my father's side which was all from Texas, Cowboys. Wow. And interesting. They were all very interesting people. I would say that my family were eccentric. I was just going to say, sounds very eccentric. My family, we weren't eccentric at all.

And my sister, you know, my sister was brilliant. She was a straight-age student from the very beginning of school until college. And she ended up working for, at that time, AT&T and invested money and stuff like that. She was a pretty bright human being. You're extraordinary people, actually. They're progressive people. I, you know, I look at you and I, I feel like, wow, how lucky.

Because a lot of people don't have that, you know, that unconditional love. Absolutely. You know, I think that's... And we grew up around what they called at that time, the black bourgeoisie, you know, these very prominent people who were raising their children to meet the right people and have cotillions and all that sort of stuff. Really? Those are the kind of people I grew up around.

Well, when you dated someone, was your mom, your parents, did they say, if they liked her or not? Were they very vocal about that? Well, they were like my girlfriend, Sandra Day, who her father was, I think, a principal of a school. and no they were no i don't know i mean they were always looking i was always sort of like uh you know brando was my hero and uh you know and i so i kind of lived my life in this kind of a maverick way you know while everybody was dressing up for cotillions and stuff like that i would show up in a ragged uh jacket stuff

like that. Why was that, you think? I was a, well, you know, I just felt like I didn't want to be like them. I didn't want to be like them, no. And, you know, you get in acting at such a young age, and I just had an actor who, here, who's going to play the next Lex Luther. And we're talking about, you know, he started at like three or five. And, you know, he came from a family where everybody was acting and doing these things. But it seems like you started, you know, especially after you get Broadway, are you then sort of you have the bug you're you just love it well yeah i you know my mom took me for the auditions she was working uh on at the as an elevator operator and then became a secretary and she was working at the lysine theater for ben boyer and max gordon they were managers

you know barrowly managers and producers and um and they were doing this uh musical and then they needed a little boy, a cute little boy, and I was a cute little boy. Of course. And so I went and auditioned. I had me walk across stage one time, two times. And I liked it so much. I wanted to do it the third time. And they said, Billy, no, no, no, no, that's okay. And I started crying. So I always said, I cried my way into showbiz. But that's how it, at that particular moment. I never felt I looked for to be an actor. I never looked for anything, really.

I mean, things sort of just came my way. Every time I thought I felt like I should go right, something would say, no, no, no, Billy, go left. I remember reading a book Catchman a Rye. And I thought that boy was me.

You know, I'm sort of living this adventure. So, you know, I was sort of with a kind of, I guess, an innocence, a kind of naivete. Yeah. I would always sort of just find myself in situations that, and I'm always, always curious, you know. Are you still that way? Yeah, I'm still that way.

You're still curious about that? Yeah. I'm like a sponge. I'm always interested. I don't really even, the whole idea of sitting here and talking about myself, I really don't. really enjoy that oh great no i love it i'm glad you came because i it's just what this is you know this podcast is you know sort of uh we talk about real things about real life about how we face adversity how you know how we deal with mental health how we and so a lot of these big actors

that come in but well you know it's in like for me i come from dysfunction so of course i need therapy I go to therapy. It really helps. And my whole life, I didn't realize I was such an anxious person and all this because of my environment. Well, I think we all need to therapy. Have you gone to therapy? I've never gone to therapy. Not once.

Well, I mean, life is therapy to me. Well, how do you learn from your mistakes? Do you just, are you just that good at saying, okay, I won't do that again? I think for the most part, yeah. I'm not an addictive personality or anything like that. So I can let go of things. when I find that it doesn't work. And you always had this love for art.

Yeah, always. I mean, more so than acting? No, I, you know, life is art. Living is art. Just existing is art. How I, how one differentiates is, I don't know that I've really spent much time doing that. Maybe I should have. Well, you're not someone who dwells.

You're not someone who has one foot in the past, one foot in the future, and kind of pisses on the present, as my therapist once told me. No, no, no, no, no. It's too much to work. Really? When you started into the business, I know you were frustrated. I read about that where you were frustrated with sort of like, you know, the roles you were getting and things that, you know, because Hollywood was different and they weren't giving opportunities to black people. And it was just probably incredibly frustrating. Yeah, I suppose, yeah.

I mean, but I don't dwell on things like that. You know, I don't really care about stuff like that. I know I do what I want to do, and I think I'm creative enough to figure out how to... I'm always looking for a way to make things unique. So I don't spend my time feeling like a victim. most people do yeah most people do but i'm not one of them you know i'm just not for me it's like okay if there's an obstacle then i'll figure a way to get around it or through it yeah and but i'll do it in a way that uh that gives me the advantage at least to some degree yeah you know

for me it's uh being innovative and uh and the challenge and the fun to me is is to try to figure out how to do things in a way that most people are not used to seeing or witnessing in their daily lives. Yeah, you seem like someone who never was really affected by the business. You didn't let it eat you up. Oh, no, no, not at all. You loved it. Yeah, I mean, listen, it came to me, and it's been good to me.

and it never stopped me from living. As a matter of fact, I found myself involved with people that normally you wouldn't be involved with. I mean, you end up working with people like Paul Muni, one of the great actors this country has ever produced, Luther Adler, people from the Edish Theater. You find yourself working with, Joni Plowright and having...

I worked with her. I had a little scene with her. She was really sweet. Joe Plowrite, Lawrence Olivier's wife, actress. Yeah, she was lovely. Yeah. And we did a taste of honey together. Yeah.

And you find yourself working with Angela Lansbury, spending time with Olivier. I spent a lot of time, you know, talking to and with Lawrence Olivier. Really? Yeah. What do you talk about with Lawrence Olivier? Well, I mean, I remember the first time I met him, I was really enamored with him and I, you know, I didn't know what to say to him. So I ran out, you know, I just walked up to him and gave him a kiss on the cheek.

And he just got a big kick out of that. Really? In the meantime, I was always busy flirting with Joni. Was she gorgeous in her prime? Johnny was never really gorgeous. I just saw her on Instagram the other day. I couldn't believe how she's like an old, old, old person who's hard of hearing. She's on Instagram?

But she, yeah, she and Maggie Smith. Wow. And it was another great English actress, and they were complaining about Judy Dench. They were complaining that Judy Dench was being given all of the roles. And then nobody was choosing them for the. these roles that Judy then she ends up with. But anyway, I thought it was very, it was quite amusing. And Joni is sitting and going, what, what? She didn't understand what they were talking about. So it was pretty amusing. I asked Olivia if, you know, the beauty of Olivia was

that I, as a kid, I was 23 years old at the time. And I mean, and I had a lot of questions. You know, as an actor. As an artist. As a person. Right. But certainly as an actor, you know. And the one thing I learned about Olivier was that, you know, he would let me ask questions. He was always asking me questions.

He was always probing me. And I kept saying, and I thought, my God. This is why this guy is as good as he is. Because he's not busy trying to show the world, you know, showing off. the fact that he's Lawrence Lillivier. But, you know, he was a very... He's learning from each human he meets. Yeah.

He wants to learn something from you. Yeah, he wants to learn, yeah. He was one of those kind of performers, I think, you know, he was criticized in his career because he was, you know, he was not from the school, what they call the Edmund School of Edmund King's School of Acting, you know, Gilgoode was more like that, you know, from working from the neck, as the neck up, right? You're worse.

He was more about what, the body. But he was more physical. Right, physical. Yeah. And he would always be criticized because he would do these crazy things on the stage. And people were criticizing him for it. It was like Rachmanov. Those kind of guys I love, they come along and they just do things that they just break all the rules.

Yeah. So, but anyway, I asked one day, I said, did you ever, had you ever thought about playing Othello. And he said, yeah, yeah, I thought about it. But when I think of Othello, he was saying, when I think of Othello, I think of Paul Robson and Robeson's voice and his stature. And interestingly enough, when he did finally take on the role of Othello

and it was videotaped, I don't know if he've ever seen it, but it's really quite interesting his performance. and he deepened his voice and he went through that process and also when he walked around he stuck his ass out and walked around with his ass because black people were supposed to have big asses right are they when I saw it I fell out laughing I thought it was hysterical because he had the courage to do stuff that broke all the rules which made it all the more fascinating to watch him

did you feel like that in your career do you feel like you were you were trying to do that yeah that was always the kind of actor I was I was always trying to break rules trying to make for me it was always about heroic heroics and a vulnerability yes vulnerability was always very important to me if you want to make a really interesting hero do you want them to be liked yeah you want

them to be light cagney j robinson yeah uh they were all liked and i said they're liked because there was something about them well first caddy always had his ma that was one um betty davis she was always like my favorite she could create hell yeah but you loved her You wanted to, in fact, you wanted to see her create a hell. Like, whatever happened to baby Jane. Yeah. Like, you're watching her and you're like, oh, my gosh, she's crazy. She's evil.

And then you see these little nuances. But it's like an exercise. Yeah. You know, what's his name, the English actor, who's a brilliant actor. He's like a carpenter. Oh, oh, what's his name from My Left Foot and Lincoln? Daniel DeLewis. Yeah.

Is that. You love him. Yeah. Yeah. He breaks rules. He gets so locked into what he does. He scares himself. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money.

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Don't wait Download the Rocket Money app today And tell them you heard about them From my show Did you ever scare yourself? Oh yeah Where did you scare yourself Well I played

There was one character I played Well a couple of them One character I did a play Called Slow Dance on the Killing Ground Randall And I fell in love with Randall Reynolds look crazy. He was, his character was based on a kid, a Puerto Rican kid, who was running around New York City with an umbrella with a spear on the end of the umbrella.

And they finally caught up when he killed his mom. Anyway, William Hanley, who wrote the Slow Dennis on the Killing Ground, he wrote this play about, it was about three people, actually, but he, he, he's a lot of three people, actually, but he, he, he, This kid was one of the characters. And I really got caught up with that character. Clarence Williams actually did it on Broadway first. I did it off Broadway. Then I went up to Toronto and did it for CBC television. Are you someone to sometimes watch a performance and say,

what can I do differently? Yeah, you know, bigger than life is always a big thing with me. Yeah. Well, it's okay to dwell. on all of these realities that we find ourselves mired in, you know, like prejudice and bigotry and all that kind of stuff. But that's not important to me. What's important to me is, you know, I got really friendly with Paul Muni when I did

my very first movie, The Last Angry Man. And he and I used to spend a lot of time talking. And one of the things we always talked about is that, uh, uh you know no matter what i mean no matter who you are you should be able to play if you're an actor you should be able to play any character you want to play no matter who you are what your ethnicity right and all that's you're acting yeah you know that's that's the challenge is to convince people that you're something that you're really not but you really are you know if i play a tough guy and or crazy i have to just make it believable and and play that yeah right and

you have to take chances well like jack planz i met him one time and we got to be friends a little bit i mean the guy was one of the on screen scariest people in the world when you when you met him or like dick buttkus uh who was bears yeah yeah he he he would destroy people people on the feet on the football field wrote poetry you know really yeah i didn't know that about dick buckets it's like it's like you know when you when you meet a boxer a fighter and you shake his hand hand um i'm always surprised how soft their hands are but you're looking at a hand that it can devastate you right i mean it's i don't know if i'm explaining my no you are you are it makes perfect sense but i mean just a position kind of stuff, you know.

Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson said, Ali, Ali. Yeah, Mike Tyson said an interview I just watched. I don't do a good Tyson, but they said, he goes, when you get out there, what are you thinking? What do you think? What do you think? He goes, I don't like myself.

He's like, what do you mean? You don't like yourself. Because the person I've become, I don't like that. No, I've seen him talk about that. Yeah, he's like, I just, you know, I just, I don't like that person. I like to be. So, in other words, when he's not fighting, he's not getting into that mode. And that duality, yeah.

Yeah. Were you someone who could just drop it like that if you're playing a role? Well, I felt a lot of one character I did. It was a jazz because I love jazz and grew up around jazz. And I spent a lot of time with people. My wife, for instance, her ex-husband, or he's dead. He just died recently was Wayne Shorter. But I love spending time around, like Hervey and those guys,

Joe Zavanyu when he was alive. I love that that energy, that kind of energy. But anyway, there was one character I played Slate Thompson. And I used to talk like that. Yeah.

Hey, Avvo. You know, and I fell in love with the guy. I wanted to be that character for forever. I wanted to be. You would talk like that even when it was over? Yeah, right. I was like, I really got caught up with this. Did someone tell you, hey, stop doing that?

Or no. Not that I remember. But, you know, every now and again, you run into certain situations and certain characters. You're an actor, obviously. So you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. For me, it's always about, you know, experience, life experience. It's about I remember how, you know, someone in my life treated me.

and I'm going to use that. And I'm going to use that anger. Yeah. And it pays off, especially when it's coming from a real place. So experience is the number one thing for an actor, I think. I think if they... But you've got to learn to let it go, too. You know, you can't just be that character.

No. No, no, I couldn't. I played that guy for seven years, Lex Luthor, right here, the statue. Oh. Right here. Oh, okay. So I was the bad guy, but trying to be good. but I sometimes would channel the anger

and channel the emotions. And, you know, I think everything I do, it's always been coming, it came from something. So I appreciate, although I wish I had your childhood at the same time, maybe I became successful because of certain things

that I grew up with. Yeah, well, listen, my whole life was not rosy by any special special... What wasn't rosy about it? Well, I mean, you know, it's what, of us go through, you know, when we journey through this barrensad, this veil of tears. Yeah.

Loss. You've dealt with a lot of loss. Yeah, you know, you, you know, there are those moments of great doubt, great moments when you really feel like, you know, fuck it, I'm going to commit suicide, get the fuck out of you. You thought about that. Yeah. Really? You got that dark.

Yeah. And how did you get out of that? You meet somebody and you fall in love. And romance got to. me out of it oh man i mean that's that's dark i mean i've i've had thoughts like that where i'm driving and i'm like well if my car goes over a bridge i you know so be it you know and i'm like why you're thinking like that oh my god you know you got you know and you try to reevaluate yourself and where does it come from and how do i fix this well that's okay as long as you're learning from it right

i mean yeah as long as you don't do it yeah you know you are so smooth. Like, you're 86, seven years old? Yeah, I'll be 87 in April. Eighty-seven. And, you know, everybody always talks about how you're the smoothest man. And in this conversation now, I see why. Without you having to do anything, you're just innately smooth. Well, that's very kind of me. I mean, is it, is it something? I don't really spend any time thinking about it. Well, that's, that's exactly why it is. because you don't think about it. People that are smooth

don't think about being smooth. Well, I just think of myself as the absolute idiot of all the time. You know, maybe that's a good thing. Why? Well, first of all, you don't simply, you don't take yourself that seriously. You take your work seriously,

but you don't take yourself seriously. Yeah. My favorite actor, one of my favorite actors of all time, Machelo Maasriani. Really? I loved him. What was it about him that you loved? He was one of those.

kind of heroes i think that he was never certain and he he would get involved in situations dilemmas and not and try to figure out how to get out of it he'd manage to figure to get out of the dilemma but but it was always the vote getting back to that it's the vulnerability it is it is i think you have to have that or it doesn't work as an actor yeah um in lady sings the blue lose and then, I mean, working with Diana Ross, by the way. Oh, great. We had a lot of fun. We were like two little kids.

I mean, that had to be. And did she, was she, did she get the choice to pick you? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Did you meet with her at first? Yeah, yeah. We met when they had me come in audition. She read with you?

Yeah, I think she did. I think, as I recall, we did a screen test together. I was the worst. terrible. You were terrible? I was terrible. But you got the parts, so how terrible could you have been? Because Barry Gordy had a keen sense

of what works and what doesn't work and he saw the chemistry between Diana and me. You were attracted to each other. You know, we were having so much fun. We were like

little kids, you know, during the screen test. And he ran up to me after I did the screen test. And, you know, he's a wonderful man. He, in his own, in this wonderful, whimsical way, he ran up, Billy, you are Lewis McKay. I just got to talk to these people, you know, the people he worked with his team.

And he says, but you are Lewis McKay. You know, so he saw the, he saw the chemistry. The chemistry. Wow, isn't that something? Because they say when an actor walks into a room, when he starts talking. They're like, they know right away. And you're saying you went in there.

It didn't matter anything you said. Well, he thought I was a ridiculous human being when I first, you know, because I had forgotten my glasses when I did the reading the first time. And I had a difficulty seeing the words. And he thought I was trying, I was being a bit arrogant. But he got a big kick out of it. By the way, when I did that character, it was right in the same year, I had done Gale Sayers and Brian's song.

Let me tell you something. That Brian's song is one of my all-time favorites. It is the best performances. It's like a love story between two non-gay men. There's so much heart that I remember watching it in high school, in English class. They made us watch it. And I had ADHD. I couldn't focus on anything.

And I was right there. And I remember crying and trying as I knew the bell was approaching, how to get those tears like stop, stop, stop, stop trying to make yourself stop cry. It was so emotional. I always tell people that they need to see that. Again, it's a kind of a provincial myopic kind of thinking that occurs. that prevented those guys from giving us the academy from giving us Emmys.

We were nominated. Yeah. But they couldn't figure out whether they'd give it to me or give it to Jimmy. And I'm sure it was all based on this whole racial thing. So they gave it to some English actor for his performance. And what was the six wives of 108? And I thought, wow, man, Jesus.

and the whole world, the whole country, they fell in love with this experience. That really, in a lot of ways, really your career took. Yeah, for years people have, even to this day. To this day. It was an act of love, that experience. And you got along with Jimmy Kahn? Oh, yeah.

He and I are not the kind of two people to hang out with each other because Jimmy is, you know, he's a whole different kind of person. and tough guy, you know. You're not a tough guy? No. Never been a tough guy? No.

A lover, not a fighter? No, yeah. I'm not into violence and fighting and bickering and all that sort of stuff. Do you ever lose your cool on set? No. Not, not once. No. I would hear stories about how people were having difficulty with each other and stuff like that.

And I'd say, really, I didn't even. take notice most of the time all of the time that's probably why you've done over 70 films people want to work with you i guess i don't know i think it has something to do with it i have to mention night hawks because it's another movie i love yeah i love night hawks that was a good movie i mean it was a great movie that ending when he's in a kitchen where he's dressed up as a woman i was supposed to do that role really yeah but i refuse to do it because You didn't want to dress up like a woman? I didn't want to dress up like a woman.

Really? That's hilarious. So Sly's decided to do it. Yeah, look, I'll do it. If you want to dress like a woman, I'll do it. Was he fun to work with? Oh, yeah, we had a good time. Do you ever talk to him since then?

Yeah, at the gymnasium, I went Gunnar Feterson. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I used to work out with Gunnar. when he's now in Tennessee he moved yeah but sly was always there and so was jimmy you don't have any stories about sly working with sly well i mean only sly was always in great fantastic condition yeah yeah i was about 10 years old and then sly and when i told him how old i was and i was keeping up with him uh he was a little bit amazed but i used to say look Could you do me a favor?

You just slow down a little bit, please. So I can look good. Oh, man. Look, I know you talk about this so much, but I mean, I have to bring it up because, you know, I'm a diehard Star Wars fan too. But I, it's, it was the first significant black actor in a Star Wars franchise, right? Lando Calerisian. Yeah, I guess that's what everybody tells me. I don't know.

Did you audition for that? this? No. I was asked to play the character. George called you. Well, I was on the contract to Barry Gordy for seven years and I guess they got in touch with Barry and George. Shelly Berger, who was my manager who was working for Barry. They all worked everything out. Was it a no-brainer? Yeah, it was a no-brainer. I mean, it was one of those things. Well, I had all of the charm and good looks that everybody wanted. But also, what you were talking about earlier is you like to be larger than life. You like to be, you know, and that character had that and the vulnerability.

Yeah, you know, when they told me his name, Landau, Calarizian, and I said, Calarizian, wow, that's interesting. Let me see what that Armenian name. Wow. Okay, let me see what I can do with that one. It was a departure. It was like I didn't go. I just went to the opposite.

way. I didn't do the whole, you know, okay, George told me that the reason why they had me come in was because into this whole situation was because he was getting a lot of flack about Darth Vader being this big black figure, you know. And so he had to bring, he had to kind of clarify that whole situation, you know, because all he was thinking was the old cowboy's syndrome where the guy in the black hat and the guy in the white hat, that's what he was thinking. thinking about. Right. But when I got that role, and I said, Calarizian, well, let me see what I can do with it. And then when I got the cape, I said, whoa, yeah. I said, Errol Flynn. You love the cape. Oh, man, it was, it was fantastic. I mean, the combination of Calarizian

and the cape set the tone for me. Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear, and t-shirts. Bombas are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes. Sorry, do we legally have to say that? No, this is just how I talk, and I really love my bombas. They do feel that good, and they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to bombus.com and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase.

That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com and use code audio at checkout. Ever wonder how dark the world can really get? Well, we dive into the twisted, the terrifying, and the true stories behind some of the world's most chilling crimes. Hi, I'm Ben. And I'm Nicole. Together we host Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast that unpacks real-life horrors, one case at a time. With deep research, dark storytelling, and the occasional drink to take the edge off, we're here to explore the Wicked and Reveal the Grim. We are Wicked and Grim.

Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. Did you ever keep any props? Well, the only thing I got out of that was a wookie head. A wookie head? Yeah. You have a real wookie head? Yeah. At your house?

None of you? No, not any more. What'd you do with it? It's foot away somewhere. Oh, you do have it? Yes. Because I always keep shit from sets. Something.

Yeah. Well, I got lots of little things, you know. I don't know. But I don't even remember what they are. Do you remember your first day filming? It had to be nerve-wracking. You're in a huge movie. Well, you know, Empire Strikes Back with working with Irv Kershna, whom I had tremendous admiration for.

Unbelievable. Could be the best one of the franchise, Empire, a lot of people say. I think it is. I do, too, in my opinion. Yeah. It's just unbelievable with the effects. Were you nervous? Yeah, a little bit, I think, because I was new.

and I was around people who had established a whole family and here I was the new new guy and I'm not a very I'm not an easy I don't walk into situations very easily how so I'm just very shy and you don't talk to people unless they talk to you yeah i i'm i'm just sort of very reticent i'm a i'm a private person and uh i don't hang out you know really you just do the work and go home i'll do the work and then i'll go home that's it yeah and the people that you worked with like harrison and carrie carrie was a good friend of mine carrie fisher oh she was fantastic i bet she was fun on set well she and i had a lot of fun we

always just talk a lot and uh and she's what a brilliant child that she she was really you know the last time i saw her as a matter of fact i was having at petrosion i was having some caviar with my good friend um um top of schroeder who owned gendarne uh who also passed away everybody's passing i know gosh i know but carrie fisher that was the last time you saw yeah she happened to be came by where she was picking up some caviar and we talked for a little bit and uh like it was yesterday yeah she's like that i could just hear a billy and then uh get out of okay she's just yeah she just she was a delight delight she used to tell me anytime i'm in the area to stop by her house here's the code i still remember the code and i go in she goes make yourself a sandwich whatever

and sometimes i hear her on the on the speaker rosembaum is that you I'm like, yeah, what are you doing? I'm making a sandwich. Make me one. You know, I mean, she was just, it was, it was amazing because. Really in mind. That's the thing. Sometimes I'd have to stop and go, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

She goes, all right, look, here's what I'm saying, you know, because she would go on these tangents where I was like, you know, she would tell me about her fights with Paul Simon when they were married. And sometimes he would say the most brutal but brilliant things that she'd say. excuse me for one second. She'd run in the other room and she'd write down what he said to her. So she could remember it and maybe write it later because she thought it was so genius. She got me into writing. Were you inspired at all by her to do your book? Oh, I started out. I've always been writing a little bit here and there.

Tell me about your book. What have we here? Why did you feel like you wanted to do this? well again I was thinking in terms of a legacy and I've had such an interesting life that I thought people and I know there are an awful lot of people who have

liked me and supported me throughout the years and who are curious about my life and I thought well this is time and I'm at that age now where it would be fun for people to know what I want to

people to know that, not that I'm not being critical, but I just want people to know that sometimes there's something a little bit more than just feeling like a victim. It's inspirational. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Originally, I wanted to do my life story based on my paintings. Yeah.

I wanted to do a coffee table book, which I'm still going to do. You absolutely should. but I decided about two and a half years ago to really I started thinking in terms of legacy you know stuff like that I guess what happens when you get to be at old man yeah I was thinking I was like do you is it something when the older you get you start thinking about you know how many years do I have left or do you yeah you do how often do you think about that all the time really yeah what do you think about you think lately I've been thinking about about it a lot like like dark stuff no it's not dark it's you know it's inevitable you know

we're not this is what did j robinson say when he in uh little caesar i always i always use that phrase uh mother of mercy is this the end of rico so you have a sense of humor about it yeah i have a sense of humor about it i mean Yeah, I just, I wonder, because I think about it now. It's all of a sudden, what happens is it goes by so fast. I know it's cliche, but it, all of a sudden, in your 20s, and then boom, I'm 51. And I'm like, wow, how did that many years get by? It seems like such a, such a long, long time ago and being 80, going to be turning 87, you know, but, but you don't have a fear of it.

Well, I'm not going to say I don't have a fear of it. I mean, it's, yeah, the whole prospect, you know. Well, the whole thing to me, I'm always curious about, you know, the fact that you get born, you live, and then you're out of here. See ya. That's true. It's a curiosity to say the least. You know, you know, the fact. that you're like a frequency, you're a wave. Yeah. Yes. I know. I just wish dogs live longer.

But I love this where they said you found LSD and you said it saved your life and it let me get inside of myself. Otherwise, you're an anti-drug. You don't really do drugs, but you did LSD. Well, I was in, this is back in the 60s. Right. When everybody was doing it. Yeah. It was very, Does it really change your mind? I've never done it. Well, I didn't do it to get high. In fact, when I did it, you know, when I was introduced to me, Rachel Esrich, I was at a party, and I was at a party with, and when I walked in a friend of my sister and me, Carol, she was giving a little gathering. at her house in the Greenwich Village

on Houston Street of Houston Street. As I recall, it was a very hot muggy day that day and I left the subway, got out of the subway, walked to the loft where Carol was living with a girlfriend.

And as I recall, I remember approaching the building and out of this cab came this red-headed lady and she went into that same building and she went up before me and I stayed back because I didn't want her to think that I was

somebody trying to accost her and then finally I went upstairs and I was just Carol greeted me introduced me to Rachel and Rachel took a liking to me for some reason the place was filled with all these ladies

what they were all gay oh And I was the only guy there. But you were so smooth. It was so interesting. It was so interesting to me. But anyway, there were a couple of gay girls who really took to me, but Rachel took to me. So anyway, she ended up giving me a cup of tea.

And I had no idea what was in the tea. And before I knew it, I was hallucinating. and it was one of the most extraordinary moments but it was one of those moments I always felt it was meant to be you know and then the following I think it was the following

I think it was the following day I don't remember but it was I had to go to a funeral and I was partly on LSD when I went to the funeral what was that like it was very spiritual

because I had a very very beautiful spiritual experience. I mean, I suddenly was in touch with myself in a way that I never dreamed of and needed to be because there was a lot of confusion at that point in my life. Yeah. About who I was, where I was. Why I had success on Broadway at a very early stage in my life.

And all of a sudden, I didn't have this success that I thought was going to go. on and on and on so it was a very confusing moment but the LSD grounded you yeah but it wasn't just LSD it was I was embracing Eastern philosophy Buddhism European Western philosophy I was getting into a whole world through Rachel Esmerich we ended up living together I started getting into a whole world that that I had I had not anticipated as a result of this relationship I had with this woman. And she was quite an exceptional person. Wow.

She was extraordinary. So it did change your life in a way. It changed my life, yes. Wow. It always scares me. That's why I've never done it. Listen, when you go out to Jones Beach and you're sitting in a little cluster of bush talking to the flies. you know, having a communing with the, you know that you've arrived.

You have arrived. Can you look back and say, I did it my way. I'm happy with the way things work out. Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra? I mean, do you feel like because some people would say, oh, I wish I would have done this. I always wanted to ask Paul Anchor, who wrote the song. I said, you were a kid, how in the hell did you write this?

How did you come up with this whole thought process? I did it my way. I mean, only an old guy would, it sounds right for an older guy to really understand that. Right. But here was a kid, a young man who wrote this thing, and I always wanted to ask him, how did he do that? Yeah, you haven't lived your life. How do you know you're doing it your way? You're doing it your way in the first 25 years.

Oh, my gosh. I have to ask about this real quickly is, you know, the Colt 45 commercials because, like I said, smooth. Those are one of those things that you did for five years. Sales burst through the, once you started doing it, and everybody started drinking it. It works every time. I mean, how do you turn a product like Colt 45 in the coolest thing ever? Because it was so much fun of it. It was the whole idea of it, the whole idea of being a spokesperson that had lines like,

don't let the smooth taste food. Or it works every time. I mean, it was like the book, the title. And that was what I said to Princess Leia. You know, hello, what have we here? You know, I mean, that kind of stuff just becomes like, playing a chord. You loved it.

Yeah. Do you think you got more women when you did that? More people, even more women were attracted to you after that? Oh, the women, they love me to death. Oh, my goodness gracious. So back to that question, you have your regrets. Well, you have women fainting. No.

Oh, yeah. I was like a rock star. You know, you would have a whole situation where they were rent out if I had to go promote something. They would have to rent out the the main floor of a department store, women, wall to wall, brought in by bodyguards and having women literally, literally, right in front of you, just go straight to the floor. people bringing their babies for me to touch their babies. I mean, if I was a preacher, Billy D. Jesus.

Yeah, I would have been Billy G. Jesus. Really? Jesus. I'm serious. This is what I was living for a big part of my life. This has been an absolute joy. I mean, really. Well, thank you so much.

I mean, yeah, I've wanted to get you here. and um i just i'm amazed that you showed up i was like you know he's supposed to be here tomorrow i think he's coming today but you're an icon and i've learned so much from this you believe it or not you've taught me a lot it's just being and and you know letting go and not getting caught up in the minutia or the bullshit and you know um i appreciate you well i appreciate you thank you very much thanks very kind of you now can you sign my lando caleresean thing absolutely yes i this is the best day of my life you couldn't ask for a better guest i mean were you excited that was so cool were you nervous probably not as nervous as you

because i just had to sit there and pretend to make notes i guess so i take notes yeah uh no he looked sharp was with it he was sounded sharp his is uh 87 80 gonna be 87 or something like that he says it in the interview but i mean he looked great he just seemed a pocket square genuinely happy yeah genuinely happy and um he really uh he he brought it he brought it um so thanks billy d thank you guys all for listening again if you like the podcast please follow us and subscribe to watch on YouTube. You can listen most everywhere. And if you want to join Patreon, patreon.com slash inside of you and support the show. We could use your help. And the top tiers of the patron, get a shout out. And here they are. And I love each and every one of you, starting with Nancy D. I'll see you soon.

Leah and Kristen. I haven't heard much from them. Hmm. Little Lisa. Always hear from Little Lisa. you kiko miss you you kiko and jill e jill e you've been around for ages you're awesome brian h o md baby nick nico p and zachry sweetest guys alive robert b robert jason dream weaver and sophie hi sophie m how are you sophie's always great to see her at a con and Raj C and Jennifer N and Stacey L Jamal F come on these guys are old school man you guys are the veterans of inside of you

Janelle B of course Mike E Eldon Supremo Dan where are you 99 more I mean 99 more has been here from the beginning too I mean Santiago M course love him Leanne P what a great supporter uh we love you Maddie S. Maddie's been here. All these people, Belinda N and Dave H. And Brad D. Got to love my Brad D and my Ray H. And my Tabitha T. Ah, Tom and Talia M.

Talia and Tommy and Betsy D. Ryan, why you say a few names that you remember? Rian and C. Corey K. Yes. Dev Nexon. Michelle A. Jeremy C. Jeremy.

Mr. M. Hmm. Eugene and Leah. Mel S. Christine S. Eric H. Shane R. Andrew M. Orr. Recall. Oracle. Amanda R. Kevin E. Stephanie K. I mean, these names, I just love these guys. Jarrell, J. Leanne J. Luna R. Mike F. Stonehenge. Brian L. Jules M. Jessica B. Kyle F. Kaley J. Kaley and Kyle and Jessica. Brian A. Marion Louise L. Romeo of the band. Frank B, Gen T, April, R.M, Randy S, Orl P, Rachel D. I can't forget, Melissa H, Nick W., Stephanie and Evan, Charlene A. Don G. Jenny B., John, Jennifer R., Tina E., N.G. Tracy, Tasha S., Keith B, and Waffles.

I couldn't do it without you, guys. You know this, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. From Michael Rosenbaum here in the Hollywood Hills, California. I'm right there, I'm here, too. Right, Tears, a little hit the camera. you guys i really mean it thank you for all the support and love and thanks for staying with me sticking with me sticking with this podcast thank you bryce thank you jason thank you ryan thank you to all my guests and um just remember be good to yourself i'll see you next week

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