Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Creators of Smallville (Al Gough & Miles Millar)

Episode Date: June 11, 2019

Smallville creators Al Gough and Miles Millar kick off two weeks of Smallville interviews. Al & Miles discuss growing up with families on different ends of the world who both supported their passion for film, meeting in a class of future Hollywood giants while at USC, and the struggle to continue creating despite the loss of a loved one. They reveal early stories in their careers of selling their first script for $400,000 while still in film school and the unique opportunity they had to create the iconic Smallville! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Light the path to a brighter future with stellus lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLOR Stellas lenses at your child's next visit. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Rob. Michael. Dude, I miss you. Sometimes you're not on the show.

Well, I'm always on the show. It's not sometimes not here for intros. Sometimes you're not here for intros. No, sometimes you're not here for an episode. Yeah, but we haven't aired really many of those yet. Yeah, well, I'm just saying that sometimes, you know, I miss you. Well, I miss you too when I'm gone. Is that true?

It is. No, because you do really well over with Dax, and he's a great guy, and I love him to death. but like that's a big that's a big show it's a big show and you're doing well and uh i'm excited for you i hope you don't forget about the little people here great show we got this great week actually it's uh smallville week small we're gonna do two weeks a smallville week do we announce both episodes yeah well we'll announce that this week we've got christin tomorrow yes we do we have christin crook tomorrow today we have two guys that really gave me the biggest opportunity of my life the creators of smallville they always they also created into the badlands uh shanghai nights uh i mean

the list goes on they've worked with so many great people they are constantly working they're i think they're too driven they don't stop but their story of how they came together and how they met and how they became it's a love story it really is a love story and you know it's like this one english guy he's like you know kind of settled in miles and then al who's like yeah so anyway and i just i love these two guys and they're probably going you fuck well i don't sound like that But they just wrote a book, double exposure. Check it out. Let's get inside the creators of Smallville, Al Goff, and Miles Miller.

It's my point of view. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. This is really exciting. Are you guys hot? No, we're good. You just tell me if you're hot. Okay. I'm pretty hot.

Are you hot? Yeah. Okay. Welcome to Smallville week, folks. This is the interview with the creators of Smallville, the guys that made it all happen. Now, these guys have been friends. I've known them for quite some time. You know, this is exciting for me because we've talked about, Al, you listen to the podcast all the time.

I do. I do. I've been a longtime listener from the beginning. Yeah, and you just text me and you're like, I love this. I love how open you. You know, because you're a busy. guy and it's just like i schlep children so i'm i'm in the car a lot right but honestly i think my favorite the one where i was like wow michael really has this down was your jimmy conner's

interview really i thought that was great and i i love that too you know what it's funny is you know why because you didn't know him i didn't know him and i was scared and it was really good you could you could you sense that i was nervous could not sense you were nervous but i thought your questions were good and i've been a long time jimmy connor's fan from back in the day when it was him and mackenrow Yeah. But you like McEnroe better. I was much more of a McEnroe guy as a kid, but I thought you're Jimmy Conner's Because Al always seems like he's really like mild maddened, but actually has this in a rage.

Oh my God. Does he have a rage? See, you guys all both. He's always pushing this narrative. Now, if you're wondering who I'm talking to, Al. Pushing this narrative. Look, Miles speaks in an English accent. He has a nice British accent.

Is it really? Is it really British? He's from Britain. He's from, right? Yeah. But it's a little mid-Atlantic now, I call it. Is it? It's true.

Yeah. What do you mean mid-Atlantic? It's somewhere in between. It's somewhere over the Bermuda Triangle. Yeah. That's where it is. It's just kind of lost in translation. Yeah, a little bit.

I like it. Look, this show is called inside of you. And, you know, most of time I deal with actors, directors, directors, producers, musicians, athletes. And really, you know, I interviewed David Nutter. David's fantastic. He, you know, the guy's the guy who sold. How many pilots? Oh, he's 50.

He's the Steven Spielberg of television. He really is. And he did all the big episodes of Game of Thrones. Oh, yeah. And he did the final season. You guys watch Game of Thrones? I do. You do.

What do you watch, Biles? I watch a lot of stuff. I don't watch Game of Thrones, though. What's your favorite show on television? Right now? Yeah. I love Homeland. I thought that was, that's been on for a long time.

It has. Like Americans? Yeah. I like Stranger Things. You like Stranger Things. Did you ever see the show Dark on Netflix? Love Dark. That's one of my favorite series there is.

That's amazing. So look, part of this show is we get to know where people come from. Not just like, hey, what are you doing the day? because I know you got a book out. I know you got Badlands season coming up. I know there's all this stuff going on in your lives. And you're like, we've had meetings. We've discussed projects.

But, you know, this is Smallville Week. Yeah. And it is inside of you. So for those listening, it's, I think it'd be really interesting to learn about how, you know, where you guys are from and how you guys kind of, you know, how you met. I knew you met in school at USC, correct? That is correct. But what were you doing?

Were you always, Al, were you growing up thinking I'm going to be a writer, a creator and was that always in your head or what were you thinking? I grew up in a small town in southern Maryland and the movie bug bit me. I mean, like a lot of us in our generation, you know, it was Star Wars and Raiders, but it was really E.T. And I remember going to see it opening night in this crappy theater in a place called Lexington Park, Maryland, which was a small town. It's a small community up against Patuxan River Naval Air Station. So it was a big military crowd. And I remember seeing E.T. opening night. And I was 14. 14. Yeah. And I was like, I want to do this. I don't know exactly what this is. The first credit that came up after the movie was over was directed by Stephen

Spielberg. I'd obviously heard of Spielberg because of, you know, raiders and jaws and close encounters and stuff. But I never really understood what a movie director did. And so that's when it, the bug sort of bit me but then it took me 10 years between that time until I went to film school so were you constantly bothering your folks and like this is what I want to do oh yeah I want to be a director I want to be a writer something I want to be in the movie business which was the equivalent of saying I want to go to the moon right nobody in southern Maryland knew anything about were they good parents did you have good they were great they were they always supported you were they were they those parents that were like I love you Al there's not a lot of that they call you Al they I was little Al because my

My dad is big Al. I'm the third. Little Al, we had a big out on the small. I'm Alfred Goss, the third. And by the way, Alfred Fabian Gough, the third. Fabian. Yes. You could have been a porn star. Absolutely.

Fabian Gough. Fabi baby would be my porn name. Fabi baby. That would have been my porn name. Wow. So they were supportive. They were great. And I grew up in a small town and they were not, now they're the opposite of helicopter

parents. They're more like drone parents. Like you could just go out and do stuff and they would eventually find you. Really? That's sort of what my parents were. Where are you going? Just go. Yeah, just go. The thing is, they knew everybody. They didn't need social media. They had friends. They had a police scanner. So they knew what we were. They knew what we were doing. You know, I think when we were younger, we thought we were so clever. And then we just realized, no, they just let us get away with shit. Were you a partyer? Were you a drinker? Were you a smoker? Were you just a good kid? I was a good kid. In high school, I did like to go to parties. You said, but did you do drugs? I'm sorry. I didn't believe that for a second. I, I drank and I've never seen him drink ever. No, I haven't, I sort of gave that up after college, but I used to, yeah. So did you stop drinking because you just didn't like it?

Yeah, I was just bored with it. You just didn't like it. It didn't make you feel good. No. So you didn't like the idea of how drunk is kind of impossible to me, to imagine even. Yeah, I've never seen it. I would either get super loud or super sleepy. So I, that was kind of.

So that was it. Yeah, and it was only beer. Like, once I, I think in college, I tried, like, hard liquor and, like, threw up and I was out. Now, Miles. What about you? You went to Catholic school, right? No. You didn't?

Are you Catholic? No, absolutely not. I'm Catholic. You're the Catholic one? Everyone thinks Al's Jewish, actually. But they do. Well, Goff seems Jewish. What is golf?

It is actually English. Very English. Yeah, but basically my family showed up in like 1634 in Maryland, looked around, said, this is nice, and stayed for 400 years. That's amazing. No wandering, explorers. Not big explorers. But Miles, what about you? So I grew up in Australia, actually.

So I sort of the Australian. Why did I know that? I didn't know you grew up in Australia. So my family's Australian. That's where his rage comes from. So I grew up in Australia and then when I was nine, moved to England and went to boarding school in England until I was 18. So I had this like very, actually, it wasn't a strict boarding school, but it was pretty. Were your parents pretty strict?

No, actually. I was wandering around London by myself when I was 11. So I had a great. You never got. spanked i never got spanked i actually had i had a master at my school wash my mouth out with soap what did you say i said the word bugger bugger and what does bugger mean uh bugger is it like shit fuck it's sodomy yeah but it's like um bugger you know what that is rob yeah i've heard it so you if you say someone to tell someone to bugger off they basically oh fuck all yeah yeah right right

right right right he didn't want to say the f bomb you didn't want to do it my i don't know what i said that are you not an f bomber Oh, my God, yes. Well, you get mad. We'll get into your rage. We'll get into your Jimmy Conner's rage. I'm pretty rageful. Yeah, yeah.

You know, you, okay, so you're, you liked your parents. I mean, they were good. So you both had good parents growing up. There was no any, any infidelity in the house. There was no drug using. There was no. My favorite story, Miles's parents are great. And his dad was hysterical.

And I remember at his wedding in the small chapel. I can't remember where exactly what little town we were in. Right. Yeah. And so Miles was signing. his marriage license and I'm the best man I'm sitting next to his father. He literally leans over me and goes, didn't learn to write his name until he was eight years old. That's all he said. That's it with an accent, Australian accent? It was hysteric, yes. Did your dad speak

with an Australian accent? He did. Yeah. He passed. He did. When did he passed? I guess actually eight years ago. Wow. Has it been eight years? Yeah. Was that one of the toughest things you had to go through? That's very tough. Were you very close? Very close. It was a very It's a passage of life But yeah, it's very surprising and shocking When it happens to you And it's only when it happens to you to understand it And how old was he?

He was 80 80 Yeah, and it happened very quickly Like I was speaking to him one day And next he was gone And for any reason? Was it, was it cancer? Was it an illness?

It was it pneumonia. So he should have gone to He should have looked after himself better But literally I was speaking to him one day And then the next And I have the two kids They got to speak to him And the next day

he'd got a call in the middle of the night that he'd gone you weren't expecting him to pass no and also it's a distance i was in los angeles and he's in london so how do you deal with that how do you are you a guy that you seem like just knowing you i've known you 20 years i guess that's right but i've known you as my boss i've known you as but we've become friends right but i don't know on you on you on a personal level like al or uh you know we don't go out for beers together or go out and you know hang out but like i notice like you're you're very how would I say this you keep everything sort of inside until it you know it blows up that's right and then all these things it's like you build these things little things build how did you how did you how did you

was there was there was there was there do you are you a crier do you do you get emotional I get emotional very much yeah because I do too yeah and uh Rob doesn't oh yeah well I can see that with you I can see that you would be kind of cold Rob's are even I even keeled I think is yeah I'm really more Israeli like that. I get super emotional and super angry and rageful. And Al's the steady course, right? He's the steady boat. I'm more British than Miles.

Yeah. But I think when people get to know me, they're surprised. I think I have a sort of intimidating presence, maybe. I think at first, because I think just an English accent, you're immediately intimidated. If someone's going, excuse me, Michael, will you come here for a second? I'm like, oh, my God, what did I do? Yeah. It's just something different.

English people sound smarter. Immediately they're smarter. is it not yeah is that true absolutely but they sound smart no matter what they say it's so Al do you remember that moment did you call Al or did it you you texted me did I and I couldn't believe it and you just said my dad passed yeah you said you said my and I was like what did you did you would how did you react I think I called them and then we talked and then you had to get on the plane like the next day how do you do that you had to go for work you had to fly out for work or you had to go on life yeah yeah now did you speak of course you had to

do i didn't speak you didn't no i didn't know it i figured you would have gotten up and said something instead no i wrote something i couldn't speak you couldn't speak no you just could not you're like which i still feel like i'm a coward but i couldn't do it no did your wife say do you want to do this you're like i i can't do this exactly so well i don't blame you i i think about this all the time it's like i'm my grandfather's my best friend and he's got Alzheimer's and i know he's gonna die and i don't know it's not much time right and he's been like a father figure to me and i'm like when that day comes and I think about it every so often like I gotta I'm gonna have to

speak they're gonna I'm his best friend they know they all know that I was the first grandson I have to speak I can't speak I can't do that I couldn't go up there well you completely unprepared for what happens so grief is an amazing thing to actually experience because it's not like it's completely unexpected

so when you get to experience it which everyone does it's it's shocking is there someone that when you went to the funeral that you see that you that immediately like from my grandmother died, I saw my, I saw my brother and he's very, you know, not standoff, but he doesn't, you know, he doesn't emote. He doesn't, you know, he keeps everything inside.

And we locked eyes and just went to each other and embraced and cried. So was there, is there someone that when you saw them, you were immediately, you fell apart? No, I think it's, what's interesting is when you meet other people who've lost parents, you feel an immediate bond. So you have that connection. Right. So there's a friend of ours from film school who lost, I remember writing a note to her and her mother suddenly died. And it was like, we really felt a bond.

And that helps. Yeah. Well, it's just, it's an understanding of how life goes. Another chapter of your life is finished. But also another moment of understanding how the cycle of life, it sounds like a cliche or Disney-fied. But actually, it's just an important moment in your life. You realize when people talk about grief, what it is. And I'd never experience.

I had a completely blessed life. You know, nothing ever bad had happened to my family, no cancer, no, no drugs, no drink, no alcoholics. It's just like, it was just very shocking to experience that. But everyone does. And how long did it take to be, feel like a human again, to feel creative again, to feel like you could move on? Did you, did you use work as a tool to sort of help you get through it? Like, I need to keep working to. Well, we never stop working.

That's what keeps us going, right? Yeah. So it's our drug is work. That is our addiction. If you stop, you think you'd go crazy? Yeah. We don't, it's impossible for me to imagine stopping. Al's nodding his head, absolutely.

It literally is out drug. Because I've said this to you many times, especially you, Al. I've said, you've made millions small villain into the badlands in Shanghai Night and like on and on the Hannah Montana movie, the Eddie Murphy movie. But all these things you've done with your life and it's like you can retire easily. You could, but you love work. yeah you love the whole process like retire and do what like i'm doing i'm doing the thing we love to do yeah what do you spend every day with beth i could do that all day by the way she would get really tired of her wait till you're 80 or something but miles so the one thing that i take from this that's

good is that your dad was 80 and he saw a lot of your success he saw you peaking really right yes exactly and that's a terrific feeling to know that your dad saw this yeah that's you get that that parental pride, which is sort of unbeatable, isn't it? Yeah. So that was great. Yeah, it's tragic. It scares me to think that one day, you know, it's so logical and so like right in your face like, hey, today you have someone, tomorrow you're dumb. People are like, hey, how many times a day do we hear this person's here now, love them with all you got?

Yeah. He may not be. And you take it for granted because you can't think about that shit all the time. No. But I, um, it was a couple years ago, my parents had their 50th wedding anniversary. So I threw them a big party. Right. said invite all your friends because frankly the only time i ever go back to southern

maryland was for funerals you know what i mean like close friends that my i mean my father you go about the crab bulls sometimes yeah but it's the crab balls the crab balls yeah that's the specialty of southern maryland crab balls crab balls and stuffed ham really yeah i think i had crab balls in college you you may have just the prefix of that but no we so i said look i'm i'm tired of you're only seeing people at funerals So we had like a big party. And the funny line was, you know, you see somebody you haven't seen in years. And it's like, it's great to see you.

And they're like, it's good to be seen. It's good to be seen. So let me. So I'm sorry for getting so intimate with you, Miles. But I, but this is what I love. I don't love that your father passed. I love that you're vulnerable and you're talking about real things. And that's what, let's fast forward.

You had a good, good parents. You were raised well. You guys met at USC. Yes. That's kind of where it all took off. Now, explain that. What were you doing at USC where you met and you kind of had some kind of bond? We were in the Peter Stark motion picture producing program, which is part of the graduate film program at USC. And what do you need to get in the USC? Well, it's interesting. I, so after college, I moved to New York and I was working in PR and I did it for three years. And I was about, you know, it's about to turn 25. And I said, if I don't do something now, it's never going to happen. You know what I mean? You're going to just be. I'm one of these people to put on a suit and go to an office. And so I was looking at film programs.

And I only wanted to be in Hollywood, only in L.A. So I looked at UCLA and USC. And the USC programs, obviously the writing program, the production program, you know, cinema theory. And then they had the Peter Stark producing program. And when I looked at that, I was like, oh, this is actually everything I want to do because it gives you a bit of a buffet platter of the show business. so it wasn't there was no film required it was like an essay I think some letters of recommendation an application and like gree scores and lots of money and lots of money but sure that was for me it was a lot of student loans right so I was just like I don't care so you paid for your college

oh yeah oh yeah yeah and how much is to go to college at USC for all the years you went um I think I quarter of a million no it wasn't it wasn't that bad but I think when I walked out of film school between undergrad loans and film school I was I was at 125,000 yeah but yeah so that's so we went to this program and they they take 20 people a year yeah and it is the most type a it could have been a reality show so a very exceptional class though yeah really amazing who was in that class that I would know it was um John Glickman who's the who's the present production of MGM John August who's a big screenwriter um Jim Whitaker who's a a lot of people who are still in show business those are agents writers yeah yeah

Greg McNice 20 so out of the 20 these guys were part of the 20 probably at least at least 14 are still significant were there any ones that left and became nothing well there was one guy who'd be at fireman right yeah oh yeah that's right out and see me that's his name his name's chad his name's chad chad in see me valley yeah and then chat ever call you and go hey guys no chad's sad he doesn't You're not sure business. Once you're out of the orbit, it's like Jake Ryan from 16 candles. He's out. He's out. Yeah. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. I'm going to speak to you about something that's going to help you save money. Period. It's Rocket Money.

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Quince.com slash inside of you. Okay, so you guys are both in this class. And do you remember the moment you met? Yes. This is at the George Lucas building, which has now been demolished by George Lucas because they built a much bigger building. But there was a little really like almost like Planet of the Apes courtyard, concrete bunker. And they had this little cocktail party for the new students. Remember this?

And that we met at this cocktail party. And Al, we sort of hit it off. We started talking about movies. We had the similar taste. And I gave out my number to say to see a movie this weekend. And I'm the worst with numbers. So I wrote down the wrong number. Yeah.

And he tried to call me and he didn't, didn't work. He was like that. Yeah. Pig. It's like he was blowing me off. Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm known to do.

Sure. Here's your number. This is what girls usually do to us. It's true. Not bros. Exactly. That didn't work. But eventually we met up in class again and then began to.

Yeah. We teamed up in a class and did a screenplay together and stuff like that. Were you like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't. That's a, that's a nine, not a six. I'd never had a phone number before, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

So it was all new to me in America. I'd never had a car. And I was learned how to drive in L.A. Yeah. You can imagine that. Oh, my God. And he had this little, like, old manual. It was a white VW.

Rabbit with a Bob Marley sticker in the back, which is how you can always recognize it. I bought it for $700. Yes. Oh, my God. And I remember the day you finally got rid of it. It was at that place on Kowanga, just below the 101. Just sold my first, our first. script and then was that mango yes it had a crash someone rearing to me did your rage come out no I was like no I think it was like time to get rid of that car yeah no wait a minute you just fast forward it's you sold a script now how you're still in school we're still in school now what are the odds of selling a script when you're still at film school it's look it's like the lottery but I will say Hollywood was a different place back then and there were scripts I were selling you know three a day and

for you know upwards to a million dollars i mean this was really the spec script bonanza of the late 80s and early 90s um that really went on to like 95 right i think is really what it was and that's now spec scripts don't sell now no and impossible it's almost impossible and that's because now it's almost impossible and that's because now it's all about IP or something existing properties yeah and so and you know this is in the day of you know shame black and joe esther house and you know people selling huge script. So there was a gold rush mentality to it. But just because you sell a script doesn't mean you're going to have a career. It is like winning the lottery. So for us, it was our tuition to learn how to write. And so we would write seven days a week, nine to seven. Do you remember the first

day you started writing together? Like we're going to write a project together? Did it just come easy to you guys working together? Working together came easy because we were we were friends. And I think a lot of the heavy lifting is done when you're breaking the story and you're figuring out and you're outlining it and things like that and that's where it really helps up two people who's the dialogue guy if you have to say al and you're the structure guy i'm both structure guys yeah but it's definitely but i think it's all i mean honestly we're writing together 25 years sort of symbiotic it's sort of you know yeah yeah so so you're in college and you're like hey let's write this and tell me if i'm wrong but didn't an orangutan was part of this that's right yes so the first

script was called mango and it was a buddy buddy comedy about a cop and an orangutan and the rang and tang was called mango and the idea was that the cop was the animal the slob and the orangutan was the gentleman sort of like yeah so they're sort of reverse but it was we sold it the week after ace ventura came out so it was all timing as well perfect timing so it was really more to do with well again everything's to do with timing and luck whose idea was it to go out with it and where did you go and who's going to take your meeting you're i mean i guess you're at u s c we had a lot of friends who were assistants we used the u s mafia yeah we used the u sia mafia but what was interesting was it was ending up on people's desks and people weren't reading it.

And then my wife, at the time my girlfriend, Beth, she worked at ICM in business affairs. She was an assistant there. And there was a guy named Warren Zide who just left to... Then he sings, ooh, werewolves in London. That's Warren Zimbabon. Oh, Warren Zee. Close. Yes, Warren Zibon sold our first fact.

It's a fantastic story. And he was starting up and he was becoming a manager, which again, was not something people had back in the early 90s. And he read it and liked it and we said you can be our manager but you have to get us an agent. And he got it to an agent named David Warden who had a small boutique agency

called Warden White and Kane and he represented Jeff Arch who wrote Sleepless in Seattle and Sam Hamm who wrote Batman. And it went out and there was a... Bidding war? 48 hours. Yes. Sold for $400,000. Yes. That pays off

your student loans. A lot of Yeah. Now, how much is $400,000 then now? Was that a million dollar script? If they had made it, it would have been. It would have been. So there's all these contingencies. It's against this and stuff like that.

But then, but here's the thing is, it opened the door. It opened the door. Absolutely. But you have to make it last because you don't know when the next one's coming. Because if you have another script after that and it's a piece of shit, oh, whatever. Well, we did have another script, which didn't sell. We didn't sell. Yeah.

So we ended up writing, I think, five specs. We sold Mango. And then we sold another script called Favorite Son, which was a political, it was a man on the run political thriller. We got a friend of ours had gotten some advice from his agent. He goes, you want to write something that sell, write a young man on the run script. And he was like, I'm not doing that. We're like, we are. That's a good idea.

So it was called Favorite Son. And it was about, it was like a JFK Jr. type character who was on the run because we're like, what if a famous person was on the run? How the celebrity work for and against you. That's cool. Yeah, it was cool. And we sold it. Cool. Yeah. No, it was a really, it was a, it was a, it was a really good. And you sold that. We sold that to Laura Ziskin and Leonard Goldberg, who's a, you know, famous television producer and movie producer. I mean, this guy's had a million lives. And he and he was, and he was. That was his. Yeah, Charlie's Angels. Fantasy Island. Loveboat. Um, and you got up doing Charlie's. Actually, love boat wasn't him. Oh, was his Aaron. Aaron. Aaron had wanted him to go. I mean, Leonard told us a story. He, he had done, you know, heart to heart.

Charlie's Angels, Starsky and Hutch, Fantasy Island. But he wanted to be a movie producer. So he was going to leave. And Aaron had heard the pitch for Love Boat and said, Leonard, please do this. Leonard went to his wife, Wendy. And Wendy's like, Aaron has this project that he wants to be doing. Because Leonard, you want to be out of that. You want to be a movie producer.

You got to make a clean break. And so he goes, Leonard didn't do it. Aaron asked him three times. And then after the premiere, Leonard goes, I turned to Wendy. And I go, congratulations. You owe me $65 million. So, because it just was a huge, huge hit. So anyway, so we sold the script to them.

And I think for us, that was really the script where we became writers. You know what I mean? Because people really like the writing in the script and the story was strong and working with Leonard and with Laura Ziskin. You guys grew up pretty fast. It sounds like, you know, I mean, from the time you sold your first script, people usually go through like a lot of struggles. You guys hit the lottery, like you said.

but you were off and running well we i think for us we never we took it really seriously we worked our ass itself yeah we worked every single i mean this thing we worked every single day yeah for the next 15 years literally is that i mean that's what it takes doesn't it it doesn't it doesn't take you can't like everyone intermittently write no no you have to do i mean it is a muscle and you have to you really have to do it you still do that you still write every day yeah yeah you guys write we're working we're working on a spec now we always have something we're writing because it's just it keeps you So that's the key

If you're out there and you're a writer I think it translates to any Translates to any profession Right I mean if you're an actor And you don't work for a couple years You kind of got to keep the muscle going Yeah well here's a great thing about writing

As you know you don't need permission to do it You can just do it Or anything else You just need a computer now And you can be at Starbucks You can be anywhere in the wall Let's do it So there's no startup costs

And also you can write your way If you're in a career slump You can write your way out of it You can change genres. You can do something different. There's never an excuse not to write. Yeah. How old were you when you graduated?

Film school? Yeah. 26. Yeah. And it was probably what, about five years before Smallville happened? Smallville. We graduated in 94 and Smallville was 2001. 2000 for us.

2000 was when the pitch was? Yeah. Yeah. So we had. Because Smallville obviously was your biggest greatest hit at the time. Right. Yes. And so what's interesting is we were writing specs.

We were in movies. Writing movie specs. And we ended up moving to William Morris in, I think, 96. And one of the projects we had done was this BBC show called Bugs. Basically, it was an action adventure Avengers, not the Marvel Avengers, but the old British Avengers type series. So it was secret agents. Right. And what they liked about us was that one was British and one was American because they couldn't find British writers to write.

action adventure so we ended up writing two episodes one for like their season two one for season three where we'd literally write the scripts they would come to l.A we'd pitch them the story work with the producers we'd write the scripts and facts that facts the scripts to them facts the scripts it would take hours it would take hours can you guys do that again there's some kind of glitch here and that oh we had we had that sometimes where you literally like you go to lunch and you come back and like oh fuck i just email it i'm just kidding i know you couldn't email it at that point Come on. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. And so when we went to William Morris, we had a TV agent. And we hadn't really thought about television. We came to film school to movies. It was very much church and state. You couldn't do both. Yeah. It was you can't do both guys. You got to choose. It's like, okay. And then what happened was, and we frankly weren't getting much traction on the movie side. We were, we sold a few things, but nothing had been made. You mean, that's the truth. You can sell a script, but your career only really changes. It's the next level when you get a movie made.

Yeah. I've sold four scripts and they never got made. It's impossible. People think there's so many levels. It's like getting a meeting with the right people, getting it bought. Then we do all these, it's a pain on the ass. Yeah. And I mean, you know, and I'm not sure it's still the same. But, you know, back in the day, people could have really lucrative careers and never have anything produced, which is always, must be so weird. Right. So we started doing television. They said, okay, you should write basically spec episodes. And this was back in the day when you would write an episode of a show that you liked and use that. Yeah, we also did a, we kept our education going, went to, did a UCLA extension class in sitcom writing, which was great. They still have that class? I don't know. Well, the guy who taught us isn't doing it. He's now like a marriage therapist, but he was, uh, he'd been a big writer in the 70s. I think he was divorced three times by.

Yeah. Right. But it was a great class and we learned a lot and it's sort of, how do it infuse humor into our writing? Yeah. So it was something that, and drama, great drama has great comedy as well. So it was sort of a revelation for us. And then from that, we went on into sort of broke into television. But we didn't, we initially had a spec sitcom, third up from the sun, which is a great sitcom.

And we had a homicide, life on the street. Remember that show? Yeah. Yeah. And we went into NBC and they were literally like, what do you want to do, sitcom or drama? Like, we didn't even realize that the church and state within television between being a sitcom writer and a drama writer. And we chose drama because it was, it was frankly closer to movies. And I'd suck in a writer's room like that.

this owl would be great with joking around but i'll be like oh my god i couldn't are you not good in a pitch room no al al's alpitches i pitch but what's interesting but they've got to hear the english accent every once in a while oh yeah oh yeah that's important it's like oh this guy's english he's smart yeah i can be like silent and enigmatic sign and enigmatic you just say one thing like you're like he's he's classy let's wind that guy up and have him do the pitch there you go yeah i think it's out out and then all sudden you go you go and this is what we have you just throw a few sentences out And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Look at that guy. He talks. Okay, great. So how did Smallville come about? We had staffed on a few television shows that didn't be, thankfully, really, really bad shows. Yeah, not good. This is a time. What shows were there? They were time cop. You could say time cop. And that was eight episodes. That was 97. Great people in the show.

Great people. Literally, when you sign on for a TV show, it's three, it was three years. Back in the day. So it was like, holy crap. If we were stuck on Time Cup for three years, I was literally, I don't know what I'd do. But, um, You only went eight episodes. That went eight. And then actually from that, we had a really good, we ended up writing two of the eight episodes. And we were story editors, which is very low on the totem pole. Like on the, when you see all those production credits on the television show. You're not getting rich. No.

No. But at that point, do you get paid for the scripts you write, which is for us is huge. You pay for the scripts and they pay you a salary. We bought new cars. So I felt like Tom Hanks and Big, you remember when he was working for the company, he got his first check? Yeah. And he's like, oh, my God. And the guy's like, John Lovis is like, don't get too excited.

That was us. right right right so we staffed on those shows always with the eye towards creating our own show and being able to run it yeah another show yeah we got martial law with colton queues who became a big big dude with lost and jack ryan so he was sort of a mentor to us yeah and so yeah so we did that show with car which was martial arts where we are sort of that was also in our sort of Hong Kong that's how you got around to badlands yeah that was the little beginnings exactly and we sort of were having a two-track career between at that point between movies and television, because the usual thing, once one starts, the other one kicked in. So television, we'd staffed on Time Cop and Marshall Law, both of which didn't, I think Marshall Law win a season.

But in the meantime, we'd gotten with Joel Silver, who on the movie side, we'd written two movies for him and Dick Donner, two Cinemax movies. One was like a hitman movie called Double Tap, which is, it's terrible, but it stars Stephen Ray and Heather Locklear. It's that good. It's that good. And then the second one, which actually turned out. kind of better, was called Made Men with Jim Belushi and Michael Beach. And that was like a bag of money. You know, it's like, bad guy's a bag of money.

He's hiding out in the town. You know, his old crew comes to get him. So they were those. But we had a great relationship working with Joel and Dick and their team. And one of this is Dick Donner, who directed the lethal weapon. Yeah. And Superman. And we asked him many Superman questions before we were doing small, though.

But they said, we're hearing pitches for lethal weapon for. Why don't you come in and pitch? And they said, Dick has a few things he wants to do. So if you can take his ideas, but he has no plot and come up with a plot. And so we spent a weekend. And this is, we were still on, I think we were still on time cop at that point. Just the weekend. Just the weekend.

Because they were like, they want to hear it on Monday. And they told us on Friday. Well, though, it was like, these are time count. Time count. So as soon as you get in here, the better. Because here's the thing. This is on a Friday. This is on a Friday.

Because they were literally like, we have Mel and Danny and Renee and Joe. René Russo. But January of 1998, like that's when their window, and the movie's coming out in July of 98. So it was like shooting a TV pilot. So we need a pitch now. We need a pitch now. We need a script.

And you're working out on the weekend. Yes. So we came up with a pitch. We go in on a Monday. We leave our office at Universal where we're doing TimeCop, go through the back gate over to Warner Brothers, pitch it to Dick Donner on the phone. He signs off. Then we have to wait for Joel for three hours.

And he comes back in. He's Joel Silva. Joel Silver. And he's a big collector. So he was walking around this table looking at these like art deco toys. And he literally comes in and he goes, okay, great, go. And then we start pitching and we're following him around the table. And about three quarters, he sits down, listens to the rest of the pitch.

This pitch was like 10 minutes long. It was not long. And he goes, I like it. He goes, that's great. He goes, here's what I want you to do. I want you to call, looks at this guys, call the studio and tell him to hear the pitch. And then he looks at guys, take out all the action sequences. Just go exciting action sequence here because Dick doesn't.

want to commit to any sequences right now and if the studio has a question you just tell him to Joel and dick love it and start writing that's what he did so we they it goes so you were in we were in so we were and of course we grew up on lethal weapon movies like that you were like I can't but we can't we can't believe right you guys don't look like two guys that really just jump up and just fucking get hammered and you know don't get hammed no that was like a stress no holy yeah so when you were leaving they say you got it you're writing the new lethal weapon for what do you how do you party. You're like, oh, well, you don't because we had to go back to work on the show. On time cop? On time cop. And then we're like going in there like, where have you been for the last

couple hours? Were you like, fuck you time cops? No. We're going to work on lethal weapon. You didn't tell him? No. No. Why? Because because then we had a, the guy who was running that show was so paranoid and felt like the 88 writer strike had ruined his movie career. So he was super bitter. And there was no writer's room on that show, but we'd be in our office. And every now and then he'd just opened the door. Be like, what are you guys doing? So, and the best part was we had gone in, this is probably a couple of weeks in, Joel and Dick's assistance call and say, hey, why don't you come in and pitch Joel and Dick where you are? We're probably a week away from finishing the script. So we're like, if this goes terribly, we're screwed.

So we go over, we pitch them what we're doing. They love it. They said, great, keep writing, get us the script as soon as possible. It was two days later, we're sitting in our office. Joel Silver calls. And he goes, hey, guys, it's Joel. Dick and I are sitting here with Mel Gibson. and we started pitching him the script

and we thought fuck it you guys should pitch it so hold on I'm gonna put you on speaker phone right there in the office and we had this paranoid guy who's literally

gonna break into office at any second we got Mel Gibson and Al's pitching away the story it's like the most literally we'd have been in such trouble

oh my God are you freaking out you're sweating your red face yeah because you're just I mean sometimes you can't be articulate when you're nervous

and you're put on the spot sometimes what's a show about well here's here's the good news is we'd written so much of the script We knew it inside out. Yeah, so we could pitch jokes and things like that, which was great.

And it went well. And it went well. We smelled like, all right, guys, it's really great, really great. Yeah, he really liked it. So the movie started. So we're writing Lethal Weapon 4. And at the time, we were doing it. Our friend John Glickman was running a company called Spyglass.

And he was making a movie with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker called Rush Hour. So he kept calling on, what's the plot of lethal weapon for? Because both of them had an Asian element to it. both of them were set in L.A. They were Shanghai shows. So he goes, look, he goes, we're making this movie with Jackie. If it makes more than $40 million, we're going to make another movie with Jackie. And Jackie has an idea, and I want you guys to write it. We're like, great, what's the idea? And he goes, he wants to do a Western.

We're like, great, what's the idea? He goes, that's the idea. So come up with a Western for Jackie. So we come up with a Western, and then we go over to pitch Jackie Chan and his manager, Willie Chan. Who recently passed away. So there's the four of us in this tiny office pitching this, movie and smoking cigars everyone's smoking cigars they the four people in the room are smoking cigars and we're in a room this size trying to pitch this story and al's contact lenses pop out because it's so dry super dry because you're nervous and he's like there's Jackie Chan owls on the floor like crawling

around looking for his contact lenses trying to pitch this story it's like are you insane like embarrassed yeah I was like just wait a minute sweating they're they're talking and then the best with with Jackie was when we were pitching he goes oh I have an idea for a sequence and you go stand up so you stand up and he's and then he starts using you as almost like a practice dummy for what he's going to do in the movie. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was great. But you sell it. We sell it. You know, we sell it. And that became franchise. And that, yes, exactly. So that was saying high nights. Right. Shanghai Noon. Yeah. Exactly. So that's what's going on on the movie side. So on the TV side, we'd done that. I remember that. I remember that was happening. That's when I met. Yes. Yeah. Shanghai nights was shooting the first season of Smallville. Remember because I had to go to Prague and you were in Vancouver. And you were in Vancouver. So anyway, so we've done these two shows. We've gotten to deal with Joel at Warner Brothers to do a buddy cop television show. So this is our first show we created called The Strip. Called the strip.

Right. That's what I remember the bald guy from Powder. Yes, yes. Sean Patrick Flannery. He was the young Indiana Jones. And he was a young Indiana. It was a weird thing with him who's a great guy, but he didn't want to be an actor at that point. He wanted to be a racing car driver.

So he was like all about can I get out on the weekends and Fridays I want to work because I want to go race cars. It's like, well. Sounds like me. I just want to get it out of the time. You're the star of the show. Anyway, that was, that went like eight episodes. It went eight episodes, but what was great about it was it was, it was on UPN. It was kind of a low key show, and Warner's let us run it. We had a good experience, and they made an overall deal with us, and they wanted us to do more shows.

And so that's when, it was the summer of 2000. Peter Roth, he's the president of Warner. Still is. Yes, he's been there for 20 years. Got the rights for Superman on television. television. And so he called us up. It was executive. It was Andrew Plotkin, I remember. He called us up and said, we have the idea. We want to do Superman for TV. Peter's always loved Superboy. We want to do Superman in high school. Can you guys come up with a pitch? And so that's, that's really how it started. Yeah. Do you remember sitting thinking of ideas for Smallville? Yeah. And what this is about. Do you remember the first thing that made you kind of go, ooh, they one of you say something or that just kind of goes, oh, that's cool was there something that just spawn that because the idea of the story before the story when they're growing up before lex becomes evil before clark becomes superman but it's like this in this little town everything happens before it's such a great idea in a great world that how did it kind of get going how did that really start spinning well what's interesting is you know this is in 2000 a lot of people didn't think it was a great idea no we had a lot of friends who were like like that sounds super cheesy like well i thought i thought when they first approached me. I was like, eh, I didn't really care

because I thought it was going to probably be cheesy. Because it was WB. Well, also the last... We always believed in it, actually. We always thought it would be a hit. And that, I guess the first idea we really logged in on as the three is that this is love triangle at its core, which is the Lana Lex and Clark, with that

and the idea of making the Kent's much younger. Yeah. And of course, taking away the costume as well and really grounding Superman. The idea, I always had a problem with that character. I never understood why he was so good. Why Why does he just innately decide to be good? So getting to that root of that question.

And then the idea that emerged was the meteor shower, the media shower, which changed, which gave it a franchise, which gave it an engine week to week. Who was he going to fight in? He needed the, it couldn't just be boy detective. Couldn't just be, him running around the town like solving crime. But the meteor shower not only brings him to Earth, but it also changes Lex's life forever. Yes. And that was the idea that it would, that it actually changes all three of their lives.

Lex, Lana, and Clark on the same day. Because her parents die. Yeah, but also Lex in particular because there was no connection between Lex's childhood and Clark in that way. And the idea that he lost his hair, which sort of like really wounds Lex in a very deep way, psychologically the rest of his life. And particularly the new relationship that we establish with Lionel Luther, when he's, when that look that John Glover gives, when he sees the little kid in the corn without the

hair, is like the tufts of hair. So it's kind of disgusted in a way. Yeah. Complete disgust. That his ideal of his son has been destroyed in that moment. So the idea that this guilt that Clark carries and is a reason why he becomes, who becomes was something that really excited us as writers. Yeah.

And was also, the challenge was how do you bring something new to this legend? What's ironic now is that in this day and age where people are so religious about canon, about what's happened before, we would never be allowed to do what we did. Yeah. Would never be allowed. And just really, the constraints I feel on superhero movies, which have to be so loyal to their source, is really a detriment to storytelling, that we were very fortunate that no one was looking at us, that we had free range to do whatever we wanted. And DC and Warner Brothers and the WB were all super supportive, you know. Do you remember when you pitched it to Peter Roth?

Yeah. Was he ecstatic? Yeah. He's like this is slam down sold. And we, but we actually would go, it was almost like over the course of a month, like every Friday, I felt like every Friday afternoon we would go in and sit down and pitch out more of it and go deeper. And it was also like, it was very collaborative. And we're very collaborative as people in terms we love to have. If you like an idea, you'll use it. You don't sit there and go no. It's not our idea. So it sucks. There's a lot of actors. There's a lot of writers that do that. Oh, yeah. And for us, eventually, we got credit anyway. So it doesn't make any difference. We want the best. And we love, actually, it's like the puzzle of screenwriting, the puzzle. of story is how do you figure out those problems and solve them in a creative way. So that's something we really enjoy. And I think one of the reasons we're still working is because we have that ability to be collaborative and not be defensive. You're malleable. Well, not malleable. It's

just like we're open. We're not going to be like, if it's a good idea, it's a good idea. I guess you are stern in the things that you want. You're like, I'm not changing our ways for that. Have you always been like that? If you really believe in something, you won't, you're not going to change for someone. No, we got a really strong point of view about what we do. Right. And we think we're very clear about that as well. So you have to be on that bus. But within the boundaries we set, you have complete free range. If you speak to people who work with us from production designers or cinematographers or directors, it's like once they know what we want, we leave them alone.

Yeah. And I notice like just on set, like, you know, you talk about how Al is really good with the dialogue and you're both really good with structure and you work so well together. But it seems to me I remember you see. seem like you were a stronger voice maybe if you weren't happy with something on set or if something of the costumes or things that you didn't like you were the one that were like you wanted this this way this why isn't like this why does she look like that you were the one that said it you were very passionate yeah i'm very much i'm the one on set al's more in the writer's room and dealing with executives and the budget and the budget so in terms of how how we that's that sucks

Al differentiated our lives. I'm very much about the look of the show, the costumes, the production design, working with the crew. I love all that. I love the actual physical element of it. I love working with like the practical effects, teams and all those sort of things. I've been really clear in terms of the definitions of what characters should wear, hair and makeup. All those things are sort of like my domain and Al is much more about the. Miles is an outdoor cat and I'm an indoor cat. Yeah. Yeah. So let's jump ahead to they like the script. It's in good shape. How long quickly does it take to get the script to where they want it? We sold. The first thing, though, is that the WB, who felt like the natural home for this show, the year before had told us an executive that we weren't WB writers, that we were two, we were two, was it male action? Like you do male action. Who is this guy? It was a woman. And it's still a good friend of ours.

And I love the teaser about it. And you're right. You're right. Much like men. Yeah. Well, it was like, you're not really. testosterone and there was this book the wb had a book of writers that were approved on the improved book we were not on the approved list of writers for that network jeez i remember one time going through it with the the head of current um john litvac who we all knew who yeah and we loved of as well

i told that fucker to stop smoking every day cigarette after cigarette i know but shut up rob just because i have an occasional cigarette you looked at me with disdain fuck you rob you care about me though rob right yep we would go through like writers like I remember we were like trying to staff season two. And he'd be like, no, not approved, not approved. And I was like, God damn it, look in that book for our names. And he goes, we're not approved either. That's great. That's great.

Yeah. It's all right. Yeah. Sometimes you'll look outside the box, my friend. Exactly. So we sold it in September. Yeah, but they didn't want to hear it first. So we were going to, we're going to Warner Brothers to the WB as a courtesy. Do you remember this?

Yeah. And the whole plan was to sell it to Fox. That was, we were all about selling it to Fox. and head of Fox a woman called Gail Berman who went on to do the OC and Buffy in a bunch of shows her whole thing was about

love triangles and relationship triangles which you look at Smallville is all about triangles because we were designing the show for her. So we pitched it to Fox we only pitched the Fox in the WB

we go to Fox in the morning pitch goes great they essentially want it in the room so we go in the afternoon we're going to the WB and Peter Roth they know who he is now he basically says

this is a Curtis see. Let's just go in and do it. And we went in and we were pitching Suzanne Daniels. Why don't you say, look, you can't unless you already knew it was sold the Fox. No, but I think, I think for us, we were like, great, we have one in the bag. You didn't care. So the pressure's off. Oh, I know how that goes. Yeah. So we go in and we been pretty clear they didn't want it. They told us they didn't want it. Well, they took from the log line. Yeah. They heard Superman in high school and they're like, eh, we're not interested. So you're fearless at this point. So we're just, so we go in and it's, it's a really well worked out pitch. And so we go in and we

start pitching. Also, we're wearing like these Superman t-shirts over our shirts. Remember that Peter was wearing it over his like a shirt and tie. Yeah. Yeah, I do remember. Yeah. It was a little weird. Joe DeVola, like all of us. And so we go in and pitch it and you can see Suzanne in the room slowly going, holy shit, this is a really good idea. And by the end, she goes, that's a great pitch. So it's like in the room you could sort of see her going, wow, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And it's right as you can tell if a pitch is going well or badly, just by people's reactions. So you had a. So you had a. So you had a. bidding war. So we pitch it there. We leave. It seemed to go very well. And Peter came out and said, I think we're still going to Fox. And then it's radio silence for like four days while they're negotiating. The Fox executives are calling us. And we like, look, guys, we think it's going to you. And then, you know, it's like a papal conclave. Suddenly it was like, the door is open. And Peter's like, we're selling it to the WB. They're going to give us, you know, 13. So it's so, and we always thought it should go to the WB. I don't remember being picked up for 13. I thought it was one, just the pilot. it was basically unless the pilots sucked they weren't gonna yeah but it was still we're gonna bet on

ourselves yeah yeah yeah so you went with them so we so we went with the went with the w bans yeah wasn't i mean we were delighted but it wasn't our decision it was like we're off to the fact yeah that's it was all this again it was the studios just doing all of that but i remember susan dandas wrote a book later and said it was small it was the best pitch you ever heard wow yeah now the biggest challenge was coming you know you sold the script you think that was the hardest challenge the biggest challenge is actually getting these actors to play these legendary roles and to make the show pop. Well, here's, and the nice thing was, we sold the project in September of 2000.

And most pilots, you don't start casting until you have the script. It means you start casting in January. They were like, Chira casting director, write sides. Sides are scenes from the episode that you're going to use. Yeah, I didn't get an episode. I got, no, you got sides. Three pages for less later. That's what we had.

So we were writing the script as, you know, we wrote these sides and we started. auditioning people starting in October, and we turned the script in at Christmas, basically. By the way, those side scenes are for the best scenes in the show. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're all, that was the fencing scene. That was the fencing scene. It was the, graveyard scene and it was the, and it was the, and it was the, and it was the, and it was the, and it was the, and it was the, and it was, uh, scene. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You cast Clark first, right? No, no, so, so. I don't remember who was the plan was, the plan was actually, we are, we were going to cast Clark first and cast around it. But then in December...

We did it. We did the universal costume. We had a casting record just all over the country doing casting calls. How many? We had New York, L.A., Toronto, Vancouver, London. Casting for all of these characters. Casting for all of it. Mostly, frankly, looking for Clark Lawn Alex.

Like, those were the primary ones. And then in December of 2000, we got this tape from Vancouver. So it's, you know, video cassettes. It's video cassettes. We had a whole box of video cassettes all over, all these auditions around. Around the country. I just thought VHS tapes. I didn't hear, don't I?

And we had, and it was Kristen Krook. She was the first one. She, she did the scene. Was it a self tape? It was, no, no. Heiki and, uh, oh yeah. They did it. Hiking in Vancouver.

And said, she's amazing. You should see it. And we're like, okay. And we looked at it. And it was, again, like crappy VHS tape and never, you know, but it was enough. She was great. We were like, we need to get her now.

Then Clark. Yeah. Then Clark. Because he was a model and he had been on chasing eight, not chasing Amy. Regarding Amy. No, it was, it was, it was, judging Amy. Judging Amy.

That's what it was. Judging regarding. No. Yeah. And he'd been in an extra in a Juddapitel. Yeah. And undeclared. Right.

But we had every like Jared Padelecky and Jensen Eccles and. Who was the closest to getting him? Jensen. Jensen. Jensen. When we went into the network, it was, it was Tom and Jensen. And isn't that funny? Jensen became a recurring character for a couple seasons and that playing the high school coach,

which was ridiculous because you like, but no he was great and then he went off to get a series called Supernatural and i remember going directed by nutter david nutter of course and then you're like supernatural hey you know whatever and then it's 15 seasons yeah i know but here's the best part there is because he was shooting in vancouver it was season four and he they got the pilot and they shot the pilot of supernatural in los angeles and he would give tom a hard time like hey the show gets picked up i'm shooting in los Angeles the minute the show gets picked up 15 years later

They happened to meet too with him pastur It's like all of a sudden like years later They're like we're gonna film in Vancouver I'm like what? Not that I don't love Vancouver Okay so who is the hardest to cast Lex Lutha Lex Luthor

You know I know that Lex Luthor How honest a guy with a gun to your head How many people auditioned for this role? Oh 500 Oh my God so many So many And you just and you saw every tape

We saw every tape And who was up for that? You were like, eh, he's pretty good. Well, there was, um,

Anson Mount. Anton Mount. Zach Levy. Zach. Zach. So, Frank, Zach Levi.

So Zach Levi actually we took, he was great. So we took him into the network, which is like, this is our choice. And I remember, you always got to get a couple of people into the network, but everyone's so terrifying.

Peter Roth loved him. We all loved him. So we took him into, they had this bungalow on the Warner Brothers Law. I remember. The WB. So we went in there and then this talking to Zach saying, you know this can change your life you know this is going to be life changing oh let's do that

well no but i think he said it to me like he just he gets into the audition room and literally it is the the worst thing we've ever seen starts to cry and it's just like what happened crying oh crying as lex luther yeah yes yeah it just it just the audition just went sideways did he think it went great no no no i never forget i was standing outside the bungalow watching him walk away realizing he completely blown it and just like and then we just sat turn to each other what the hell's going to happen to that guy. Did you feel bad? Devastated.

Because he's a nice guy. He's a great actor. And he's a great actor. And look, he's had a great career. I just had an audition where I go in there and people go like, did you nail it? You hit a home run, a grand slam. I got to, maybe a double. Well, no, but that's the thing.

You never know. It's like how you feel that day. It's like, you can crush it or you can go like, eh, I don't know. The nerves got me or I was a little bit. I wasn't articulate enough. I looked a little bit like I wasn't sure on myself. There's so many things that can go wrong. And it was D.D. Bradley who said, you guys should take a second look at Michael.

Well, that's what we already seen you because you had. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It was something. You had a cold. You had a cold. No, no, no. This is the truth of the story. I swear to gun, I told this story. The first time my agents kept going Smallville, Smallville, small. And I go, I don't want to do a series about a young. It's the W.B. The W. The W.B. has a bunch of shitty shows. I don't want to. Not that they're just young and light and soap opera-ish. And I was like, I was doing comedies. Doleson Creek at that point. But I hadn't had a huge success. I did like Urban Legend, a show called Zoe that didn't, wasn't successful. So in my head, I just was like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to do this. And so I really half-assed the audition. Yeah. I just didn't give, I just didn't give a shit.

I remember not knowing my lines. I just didn't care. Right. And for some reason, I don't know what happened, but it wasn't, it was it was a D.D. Bradley was another casting director, too. Yeah, but it was Dedy who told us to take a second. Oh, it was Dedy. And so.

And what was interesting was. was and by that point like we literally we were like a week away from shooting the thing so we had to just like the pivotal role yeah so we're all freaking out

basically and I was in I was already in Vancouver with David Noda prepping so it was getting down to the wire and I was in L.A and I think it's when you came in you came in I just yeah but I didn't come

with you right yeah you did no hang on okay I remember I came in again with nobody there you may have pre all I can tell you is I was in a room with Mike Tolan and who's another executive producer and you came in and Didi was like had the camera set up and this is when again the video cameras are kind of big and I told her to and she's like oh you need to

be here and here and you're like no I'm moving around and we're like follow him around so she goes it's going to take me a few minutes to get everything you're read I'm like I just I want to sit I want to get up I want to do these things yeah I asked them what 500 other guys were doing wrong I wanted to know from you guys And they asked you, I guess And you said, we want him to have charisma We want to have a sense of danger Sense of danger

You want him to be smart or calculating Or show a little bit of edge Yeah So I wrote, you know what? I'm going to be dangerous here. I'm going to be funny here. Whatever. And I circled those areas

And I go, that's what I'll do. Yeah. And I went in there And it was one of those things Like you didn't have a fear Because you knew Fox was They're going to buy it. So even whatever happened.

So you had no fear. I went in. It was one of those few auditions where I went in. and I didn't care. And it felt like so freeing. And you were great. But that was it.

And they wanted to metest me. And I was like, well, here's, no, no. So here's what happens there. Because I heard this story. I said rewind the tape. But then this is the other side of the story. So Miles comes back. We show him the tape.

We're all like. Oh, and Peter Roth's there as well. And he literally says he's looking at the tape. We took it up to his office. Oh. Yeah. Oh, I saw it first. You saw it first.

And this is the guy. Like, this is the guy. So we say to Peter, we got the guy. We go up to his office. And it's the same thing. It's like humor, charisma, blah, blah, blah. But he's literally standing in front of the TV and he's looking at you. Yeah.

And then he says, there it is. There's the danger. Exactly. Right. And we knew it was like, okay, great. And then we're like, we're going to take him to the network. And I think it was actually Peter. I'm sure they called and said, well, you come into the network.

And Peter was like, just send them the tape. And that's what, you know, what's funny is I was too scared. And Jordan, I said, yeah, loved you. I love Jordan. And by the way, it was one of those things, like, once everybody saw, the tape, it was done. And you know, what's funny is I said to my agent, he says, I go, listen, tell them to rewind the tape. I can't go back in. He goes, what do you mean? They'll never do this. This is one of their biggest shows. I go, I'll never be that good again. Well, that. You will.

But in that room. No, I know. No, no, exactly. For some reason, it was a bad, it was a bad decision, but it was a good decision. But I don't recommend that to anyway. It was a lucky thing. No, because we sent them the tape thinking, oh, God, if they're going to ask him to come in and Jordan called and said, he's great. Hire him. Lightning in the bottle. Yeah. Lord loved you. Yeah.

So it was like, so that was terrifying. That was the most terrifying. Do you remember the first day, or I think it was the first day where we were in a, um, 12 foot deep tank, water tank. Yes. And I was so scared because they put me down there and they put weights on my body and they put the mask on so I could breathe in the water. I'm like,

that was the last day, wasn't it? No, I think that was the last day. The first day we came up, we recorded you shaving your head. Oh, that was, do we have that somewhere? You must. I think you record it. I think I do have that. You recorded it.

But I was, yeah, I remember, he always think you're going to get fired. You're always thinking you're going to, and I had done some other shows. And this was the first time in my life, because my father, I always tell the story. He's like, what do you mean you're doing an independent movie? So you're not doing a real movie? You're doing a short film, though that's not a real film, a short. So he always thought, like, what are you doing acting? Get out of this profession.

He wasn't the most supportive. So when I saw the opening of the pilot, David Nutter brought me in, because I was doing ADR, sound for the, you know, and he said, well, what? Would you like to see the opening? And I go, sure. And I could not believe what I had seen. And I walked out and I called my parents and I said, this is going to be a hit. People are going to maybe recognize me finally in my life.

And they go, what do you mean? I go, no, I just know it. And they never heard me say that before. Right. And so it just, it was one of those, it was lightning in a bottle. Yeah. And it was terrifying because when you walk on set, the production design, I'd never seen anything like it and you know that whole town in the opening blowing up you know with a meteor shower

and the it was just and the way it was shot and the you know everything came together people always say the actors made the show or they'll say you know the uh the way it was it's so important to understand that without the writers without the creation and a vision and without all the people they hire around it and if those people any of those people aren't good at what they do and you know that the dp doesn't light the right thing or it does everything has to come together to make it so... Yeah, and then it's alchemy. Yeah, it is alchemy.

You can have the same group of people make something else and it's crap. It's the idea, it's the script, it's that amazing combination of actors, and then the team behind it in terms of production, the director. So it is, but it's bizarre how it's just that special moment. And then it's also the timing, you know, because we came out, but, you know, one of the first superhero shows, Loess and Clark had been the last iteration of Superman. And then critics were like, eh, nothing. and then 9-11 happened

and the show premiered a month after 9-11 and that really changed everything in terms of people's perception of the show as a celebration of what America could be and is so that we'd really leaned into the Americana of Smallville as a notion in production design and costuming and the sort of color and the beauty

of what it is to be America or people's imagination of what America is so that really just was what the country needed at this moment when that happened And I think it's really important to remember that moment. And not only that, yeah, I think that's really poignant. And I also think that, you know, the WB hadn't really done anything that was, had the dichotomy of, you know, they had the shows that were kind of like, oh, pretty and nice.

But this had this sort of darkness to it where you, you know, see Clark and you'd see his father and his family, this all American family and this love and affection. And then you'd see the Luther's. Lex Luthers and like what you know the backstory to all the darkness and that's what I think the both those two together just kind of created something really special well it was it was multi-generational and that and I think that that's really and it was adding complexity to the mythology yeah to superheroes in terms of that idea which is radical at that moment there hadn't been anything they didn't been X-Men but the idea of adding depth and emotion to these people that you read on a comic book was kind of ludicrous and what's happened now is that we sort of swung the other direction that people critics are now like all they want come up with movies to be is funny and yeah banal which is sort of what where they always have put it it's back into that same slot yeah it just feels like nowadays i'm not bashing movies maybe it's just because i'm old i used to say to my father oh it's because you're old or my grandfather it's like you hate everything you hate music am i becoming that to we become that but i don't think that's true i feel like for me like horror

movies you know horror movies really scared me and they don't make you really enjoyed us huh I didn't say it was us that I didn't like Did you read the tweet? It just infuriates me sometimes Because I love seeing people's success But don't you think that a lot of movies It's just the same movie made over and over

Yes and I think also there's a lemming like Attitude to Popular Culture That if all the critics will love something But it's like well really Yeah it's the rotten tomatoes of thank you Because I probably agreed with my tweet then Maybe I was a little too hard No because there's a lack of honesty

No one can be honest about what they think They're afraid to say what they think how could here's here's what they should do here's what rotten tomato should do tell me if i'm wrong if you give a movie in a miles al rob if you give a movie in a it probably means that i'd see that movie again that's how i judge it if i'm going to give a movie in a i'd see that again it was so good i'd see it again how many of these movies they're given 90 95 97 percent that you want to see over and fucking over again have you seen cold war so it's like it's like that and Romer and these movies which are sort of super worthy but actually are boring as

fuck so why are people going to sit there and watch this stuff because a hundred percent it's like they're boring boring sorry so and then you see the schism between the the rotten tomatoes critics and the cinema score which grades what audiences think right which is also fascinating yeah but i think the horror movie thing is like a fascinating in terms of what critics think a good horror movie is i mean hereditary is a great independent movie it's not a horror movie by any sort of there's some great it's funny enough it's more of a harm movie than us more of a harm movie than most of the horror movies

it had some scares which make it a harm it has some shocks don't call yourself a horror movie if you're if it's a horror comedy don't call Sean of the Dead a horror movie it's hilarious and great

but it's not scary so I have these problems with like you know well it's a lot of scariest movie you sold then the scariest like you know look it follows insidious I love it follows it follows it was genius

it was original it was dark it was just like something I hadn't seen I watch a lot of indie and it's so simple So simple. And I think that the success stories, if you look at them like the strangers, they're simple. And that's what I want to do. I want to make a horror movie.

That's just simple. Keep it simple, something that's relatable that could happen to anybody. That's what success. You do these giant movies, these commercial movies that are just CGIed out the ass. I get really frustrated. What do you think about all the superhero movies nowadays? Do you see a Marvel? Do you feel like it's one of those guys?

Because you don't want to sound like one of those guys. You're back in our day. Yeah. But do you think it's oversaturated? Do you think... You know, you would think so? Or give people what they want. But it's not like my son is 15.

He watches all of the CW shows. He loves the movies. So, I mean, for him, they're great. I mean, I look at it and I go, this is all stuff we did 20 years ago. You know, I sort of feel like, you know, we... So wait isn't it?

My daughter is 13 loves it as well. But hang on, here's the difference. When I was a kid, Raiders of the Lost Dark came out, and I had to wait another six months to a year for another movie like that to come out and that was exciting now it's every fucking month there's the the big ass blockbuster I'm not putting it down I'm just saying no no but it's part of it is distribution changed so you know used to be I think as Michael said it's giving people what they want and people it's insatiable you think when's they're going to stop that's what I think it's like a religion now that people it's like chapters of a fucking Bible that people need and feel this urgency to figure out I need to know what happens next it's like it's actually one of they're going to run out. I don't think they are. You think they can continue these stories forever? If you can make Ant Man, by the way, if Captain Marvel can make a billion dollars, they can, they can turn Or Ant Man or, you know, the other ones like Thor. I mean, how does Thor have three movies? Is this like,

it's impossible to imagine? I mean, they've done, I mean, again, kudos. We've known Kevin Feigy for a long time. Genius. Genius. Yeah. Honestly, it's like, amazing. I just want more horror movies. I want good horror movies. It's a very hard genre. Yeah. It's a very hard. Because it's like, how do you do, how do you, can you add something original to that genre that hasn't been trudged before it's very you don't here's the here's the reality if i was a studio head don't hire big stars you do not need big stars for a harm movie get nobody's pay them nothing make a movie i mean pay them enough you know make a movie for three million dollars with a great script get the best writers we don't need to make it for 50 or 30 or 20 with

tons of cg i and find me good scripts and get the best writers things that are relatable, things that people fear, you know, being home alone at night, you know, the boogeyman, the Bobadook, things like that. Yeah, so anyway, that's, I don't want to get off on that. But look, you gave me a career. You gave all of us a career. Without you guys in this opportunity, I wouldn't be here. You know, I'd probably be doing comedies and I'd be doing it.

But who knows? I never thought, look, I always did plays. Yeah. But, you know, it's funny as people always say it. You both have always said it. Don't forget you're a dramatic actor. And I'm like, I tell you. I tell you this all the time.

Because I think always I was the goofy little kid that I'm like funny and I'm this and I'm like, I don't know, really. No, I think that's that's the strange thing about people's psychology is like you're an amazing dramatic actor whose work has been, you know, celebrated for 20 years almost in terms of on small bills. So it's like, why haven't you done Broadway? Why haven't you done more theater? Why haven't you done more movies? It's like one of those things that you have that because I think you've been fighting against doing that. You've been like, I'm a comedian. I want to be a comedian.

You're one of the few people I know, like, most comedians want to be taken to serious dramatic actors, and you're the dramatic actor that wanted to be the comedian. But I was always a goofball kid, the guy, you know, growing up, always making jokes, always doing impressions, always making people laugh. And, you know, before Smallville, I did sorority boys, and it didn't do that well. But, like, Disney was trying to make a deal with me, and I was, I was off to start making comedies. But once I shaved my head, my career completely changed.

For seven years, really, I was, that was Smallville. And I don't regret it for a minute. no way but it definitely put my I think if it wasn't for Smallville I don't think I probably would have who knows if I would end up doing drama right it was really hard for me to people say action and I'm being very serious the whole time so if you notice when I well it's always behind the scenes is always behind the scenes it's just like me laughing being an idiot and action but the one thing I'll say Michael is that and it's something obviously having done like 300 hours of television now is like you know we've worked with people who are real actors and

you were a real actor. You never arrived on set without being prepared. You knew your lines. You'd goof around until the very last second. Someone says action and you fuck you were on. Didn't piss us off. That was always good. And you had all those speeches to learn and you delivered time and again with nuance. You you deliver more misinformation about Alexander the great than anybody. I didn't know what I was saying. But that's fun. But you delivered it with such belief. Guess what? It looks effortless, but clearly you'd spent the night as, any good actor learning your lines and knowing your shit and that's what you and that is actually something that's rare that you never took it

for granted that you were serious about your craft and that guess what it shows on screen you can see the craftmanship

and your dedication the performance it's not just like you just don't turn that on it's something that is that means that means

well it's true well thank you and we and we work with some amazing actors yeah you have and they all have that sense of

I think duty and responsibility and they realize that that's their love That's that passion. Professionalism and like, yeah, yeah. And I think that's when we look, everyone on Smallville, we had, and we did have a no assholes role. If someone is a dick, in any, any writer, actor, director, anything, they don't stay working for us for long because we love to have an atmosphere of creativity and friendship and warmth.

And I think we lucked out with the Smallville cars because they were great people. Yeah. And that's a rare thing. And as we've gone on, it's, that was a very rare thing. We had, and everyone in that show, we were young and they had incredible fame very, very quickly. And they, you know, that can make up crazy. You know, that's a big thing to, to, you see yourself in the cover of Mad Magazine or Rolling Stone or TV guide. You just see that I have it in my bathroom.

Yeah. You saw that. You liked that. That was my favorite thing. And also, TV, you could literally become an overnight success. Whereas movies, you make movies and it like takes time for it to come. I remember Owen Wilson talking about this. It's like the movies are in the can.

You're making another movie. So it's a little bit of a. slower build in movies. No, did he say, oh, it's more like a slower Wow, he said, man, it's a slower build. Oh, no, it's like, it's really great. It's like, I love working with you. I think that's like, I don't know.

Jackie's real aggressive. He's a stung double. That's good. Very good. Look, you went on, you keep creating amazing things. You guys have Into the Badlands on AMC. It's the fourth season. Fourth season.

Four season. It's out now. Yes. On AMC. Yeah. And you can catch up on Netflix. You can catch up on Netflix. How do you continue to push the envelope?

How do you make, because if season one's great, which it was, how do you make season two better? Is that always the idea of how do we just make everything better? Because you don't have really Freak of the Week like you did in Smallville. Again, people don't understand like 22 episodes a year. They call it Freak of the Week. Yeah. But to defend writers, if you're writing 22 episodes a week, 10 months a year, if you have a

handful of great ones, a handful of good ones, and some media, you're not going to have perfection. Nowadays, they make 10 episodes on most TV shows, 10. And they better be great. And they, they're all written before the season starts. They better be great. They better be great. So how do you do that with End of the Badlands?

Well, I mean, that was, it was interesting making television in the Smallville era of 22, which is exactly, we say that all the time. That was just to just say that fucking piss me off, this whole freak of the week. I know. When I said it, I go, absolutely fucking piss. me off. Tell me why I picture of. Because this guy, Clark Kent, aka Superman, has superpowers. Who the fuck is he going to fight? What do they want him to do? Yeah. Solve the local like, you know, shoplifting crime at the, at the thrifty mart. I mean, it's literally like, I mean, but I know,

want that guy doing something. I want to see the rage, Miles. This is where the rage comes out. But you're, but you're right because it's like, it's like, the media shower hit. This is the perfect idea for people to have some kind of powers, which Clark has to stop them. Otherwise, you're right. He's fighting normalcy. Yeah. So, that's like Buffy fought fucking vampires every week. Nobody seemed to have a problem with everything.

You know, they always have, oh, this, that. Oh, he's fighting the bug guy. Who is it? You're right. Who is he supposed to fight? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, we, this is the thing.

Well, we did have orders from on high the first five episodes to keep repeating the pilot. That was, that we had to keep read because everyone was afraid no one would understand the show. That was the big fear that everyone at the network and the studio, you guys, you don't understand. No one's going to know what he is. And an avid viewer at that time watched one in four episodes of a show. So they wanted to make sure that people, as Miles said, that you understood. I watched the first 10 episodes with my 13-year-old daughter recently, right? And yeah, I think, what I mean, was amazed how big they were the episodes, like, ridiculous.

Like, I can't believe we did that. And how good they still look. I never shot on film. But that sort of the repetitive nature of those episodes, I get the criticism there. But the whole notion of like, oh, they do freak of the week. It's like, give me a break. So into the badlands. Yeah.

What can we expect this season? Well, this season, it's the last season, so you can expect a conclusion. This is it. This is it. Are people pretty upset about that? Yeah. I mean, I think they are. I think people, it's one of those shows, unlike Smallville, it's, I would say it's a very acquired taste.

And when people love the show, they love it. But, and I think the fans are incredibly passionate. That's, I mean, you know how toxic Twitter can be. If you want to feel good about yourself for us, it's like go on the Into the Badlands Twitter feed. People love the show. of course you know it's like mall and that's with every show it's like people you know you can sit here and talk about any show on television and there's those people that are passionate about it yeah and those are the people that make the show successful and i mean for us it was like it was it was a huge swing it was not based on anything and the fact that amc supported the show gave us the money to make the show frankly gave us the money and left us alone like they were they were never had more freedom they never had more freedom and and we were able to make this insane show for five years and the show has a conclusion so if you start watching the show it it feels like you know when he gets and he had nick frost the wonderful nick frost came off for a couple seasons yeah he came

on in season two right um and he's and he's fantastic that was that was one of the things one of the criticisms so funny so good he's so good and his is exactly his instinct is we actually said it's a lot like you which is just like his all of his choices are just real and great and they elevate it Whatever his material he has, he just elevates it. Yeah. And it's really interesting. And you believe, you know, you believe what he's saying. He fits into the world.

And for us, you know, the first season, you know, the criticism, which we, which we took, which is like the show feels very serious. And, you know, Miles and I and David Dobkin, who did the first three episodes, were like, how did the three guys who did Shanghai Nights make such a serious show? And so we wanted to open it up. And, you know, thankfully Nick came into our lives. Brought some comedy. Yeah. Brought some just mixed it up a little bit. And he's great.

And it just, and it literally opened up the show in a way that we never really. And if you don't know Nick Frost, I mean, Sean of the Dead, I mean, the guy's been around. He's just a hilarious actor.

The book. What made you want to write a book? This was a long, long time project. It's literally a hobby. We had this idea, I think in 2010. And it was interestingly going to,

looking at Indiana Jones. The thing we loved about Indiana Jones, was that he was a guy with an incredibly specific, you know, skill set and career. He's an archaeologist. And I'm sure, like all of us, you were like, I don't know what an archaeologist does. It doesn't feel like an adventure thing. But then you see Indiana Jones, you know, like he's in a classroom. And now he's doing adventures and he's taking a punch.

And all of those movies started with an archaeology thing. So we were like, we want something specific like that. So we came up with this idea for a character named David Tolan, who's the first director of preservation for the Library of Congress's National Film Archives. And in this first book, it's set in 1961, a canister film comes over the Berlin Wall, which has not been up that long, and the CIA brings it to David, who was a former Korean War vet. So he wanted to get away from war. He's literally in an office in the Library of Congress restoring movies. And then he restores this canister. And films back in the day were nitrate, which meant if they weren't kept at a proper temperature, they would start to deteriorate.

he's able to restore it and without giving anything away, it sets up a huge conspiracy that then sets them on a globetrotting adventure. So the idea for us, we initially did it as a movie or wanted to do it as a movie and then we realized it's period, it's globe trotting. If it's not Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise or Leonard DeCabry, nobody's ever making this. Yeah. Yeah. So it's called double exposure. It's double exposure. It's been a really fun experience to do a different medium. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you guys are, I mean, amazing, you're amazing creators, amazing writers, amazing guys once you get to know you. No, I'm kidding. But seriously, your body of work, I mean, it speaks for itself. And you guys show that hard work really does pay off. Because, you know, for the beginning of this interview, you talked about you write every day. You challenge yourself every day. You guys wrote a book to try and break up the monotony maybe of writing screenplays and TV shows, which to most people would be enough. but it's never enough you are insatiable right i think that's a good word to describe both you guys

and i have a feeling you know if i live long you'll be around writing projects doing things and i'm like oh yeah they didn't put me in that those fucking not for lack of trying by the way we have tried haven't we're we're we're doing this life like it's a very long life yes you know who knows what will happen i'm 40 i'll be 47 you guys are right around there right right yes we're all nearly the same age, whether we work in a year together from now or five years, 10 years. I love you guys. We love you too. Yeah, I really think that

this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Wait a minute. That was from a movie, wasn't it? What's your favorite movie, Miles? My favorite movie, I love the movie Heat. Really? Michael Man? Michael Man. It's part of my favorite film. You love that movie. I love the movie Drive as well.

I didn't see Drive. Oh, Michael, Michael. But Michael Man, Heat, there's that guy, Ted Levine's in that. He was the guy from Silence to the Lambs. He was like, oh, wait. Tom Noon. That guy. You see a great big fan person. He puts the lotion.

So I watch. So what's funny is about that guy is I saw him in Silence of the Lambs. And one time I was watching the TV and the mute button was on. And I look at it and I go, hey, that's the dude from Silence of the Lambs. I want to see how he really talks. And I pressed play. And he goes, hey, can I get a beer around here? Oh, my God.

He talks like that. But, okay, what's your favorite, Al? All that jazz. All that jazz. Yeah. That is completely different than what I thought you'd say. You love musicals, though. I do.

You love musicals, a big theater kid. Well, look, this has been a real treat. I hope you guys will come back. This is a great part of having the creators of Smallville here, friends of mine, in my house. It's a real treat. Thank you, Mike. So thank you for allowing me to let you, let me, thank you for allowing me to allow, wait, how do I say it? Thank you for allowing me to be inside of you.

Yes, we are three way. All right, guys. All right. Thanks, Michael. Thank you, Michael. Hi, I'm Joe Sal C. Hi, host of the stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account.

The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this edition that we're adding. $50,000, I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done.

Thanks for playing, everybody. We're out of here. Stacky Benjamin's, follow and listen on your favorite platform.