Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Ep 12: James Gunn

Episode Date: June 26, 2018

Guardians of the Galaxy director James Gunn joins me to talk me about the filthy commercials he used to make with his friends when he was a kid, how he used to think sex was just putting a penis in the vagina to help the baby come out at birth, and the start of his miraculous and inspiring career. James opens up about his insecurities in relationships and how hard it is for him to be vulnerable, his marriage with Jenna Fischer, and how he’s finally found a way to juggle his career and personal life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. This week is James Gunn. Rob, you know James Gunn? Yeah, no, James Gunn. You know, he directed Slither, Super, Guardians of the Galaxy, 1, 2, 2, I'm in. Guardians of Galaxy 3, which he's writing right now. And our interview doesn't start off great. James said that when we met, I was a close talker, but I'm not.

You know that, Rob. Just admit it, right? Yeah, I don't think I've ever thought that. No, in fact, it freaks me out. So I was like, just taking aback by this. I was like, James, you're wrong. So we start, I think the first four minutes is, is me going, you're a fucking liar. But it was a really great conversation.

It wasn't fun to go out to. It was the first time we ever left my living room and went to Malibu. We're going to talk about his filthy super eight commercial, right, for pre-menstrated tampons that he made when he was really young and he was a stupid, foolish kid with a bunch of his brothers. And it's funny. And I forced him to tell the story And he didn't want to And it was fun And how he learned about

What sex was Do you remember what he said? He thought the penis Was just used for birthing, I think That it helped the baby come out The penis helped the baby come out Is what he thought when he was younger How he worked with Lloyd Kaufman

From Troma Films, how it all started there Sort of He was a punk band This is just so much to talk about Let's get inside of James Gunn It sounded like I'm eating food Which I am It's my point of you

You're listening to inside of you With Michael Rosenbaum Inside of You Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum Was not recorded in front of a live studio audience But I've met your family And your dad You know my dead well

Yeah, he Facebooks me Yeah, you guys are Facebook buddies We're friends I love hanging around with him He's got an amazing energy Yeah first off let me just say thank you for allowing me to be inside of you james gun james francis gun i never called you francis probably probably because you i don't even know what your middle name is well i appreciate that

friends for quite some time it's owen ohin oh yeah i have actually heard that should i have gotten rid of rosenbaum and just had michael owen always thought about that uh yeah yeah i should have done you would be more successful today james how did we meet this podcast would be a lot more hits than the 37 skidding now we're getting up there we're not i'm not a big celebrity that's good i'm trying you know i'm doing the best i can i finally got to you know you're the first one i had to come out to malibu with because look i know it's it's fine though i usually in my living room you're not a difficult person i'm difficult i think we're both difficult in many ways but there's also good qualities about us obviously right i'm sure but i think that you know about me there is you're a lot

busier than I am. I could probably reschedule my acupuncture and my therapy session to come to Malibu. Is that what you do in your spare time? Well, it's become part of my life to go to therapy. You've gone to therapy in your life. I have. Do you still go? Same therapist? I do. Do you do it by phone, FaceTime, or? I go in person about, you know, once every three weeks or so. Three weeks. Is that enough? Yeah, I'm pretty fixed. I'm pretty perfect. Really? Yeah, no more demons. How do we meet? We talk about this ad nauseum, but how did it happen? Because I always say a plane and you say no. The first time we met was at the premiere for Without a Paddle.

Right. Because I was friends with Matt Lillard and Seth Green. And I was friends with Dak Shepard, right. And we went to that. And I saw you and I told you, you were a, I really liked you on Smallville. And then you stood too close to me while you were talking to me. And I was creeped out. And then we didn't talk. again until you so right now until right now I avoided you and then creeped out by me you still you're a close talker you're a close talk that's not true you are that is that was my first impression of you is that you're close talk I'm actually I hate those people who get too close so maybe you're a close talk well that was inadvertent because I am not I do not I talk about this you know how I really get

weird and people are close to me I actually try to be for maybe maybe back in the day I think whatever your boundaries are for those those parameters between people having conversations are much closer than my boundaries. You're telling me at least that one time. Yes. You can't say that I don't think you would hang out with me for all these years if I talk that close to you. Close to you.

Well, I mean, I know you now, so I'm not as uncomfortable when you're so close to me, but I didn't know you that night. Now you're, now you're, I'm just used to you being so close when you talk. You are close. That's absolutely not true. I am uncomfortable around people. You don't know this. It's, you think I have this confidence.

I don't always. I didn't say you have a confidence. You talk too close. Now I'm not confident? What do you mean? I don't have this confidence. I didn't say did or didn't. I didn't say anything about your confidence.

I just said you stand closer to people than I do. You know what? I was thinking, I stand, I have a healthy boundary that I like to have. I was thinking before this interview, I was like, you know, there's going to be some things James might want me to edit. But now there's some things I want to edit. I don't want people to think I'm a close talker because I'm not. You are. Don't side with him because he's a big time Hollywood director.

You fucking tell the. truth do I always talk close to you I always try to get away from you um you're normally in the bathroom talking through the door I don't know what that means I don't know what it means either um yeah so anyway that was my first impression okay then one then then then a lot but then we met again on the plane I was flying home from slither during some break or something from vancouver you were flying home from smallville right and we sat next to each other and uh how close are we that was better because we had an arm rest between us so you didn't have to cuddle will me too much. Did I have fresh breath when we first met if I was that close to you?

Yeah, your breath was fine. Awesome. That's a good thing. It wasn't a breath problem. Thank God. Thank you. A boundaries problem. The, uh, the second time we, we, uh, oh, this is good. This is not good for me. That's good. So the second time was on the plane. And we talked about horror movies, which was cool. Yeah, we love harm. And then I found out you had a really shitty taste in music. And then that was, uh, yeah, that's sort of like, so it's, it's amazing how we've become close. friends because I was too close to you when I was talking and you don't like my my music for the most part well then I got divorced and I was like I don't have any single friends right and

there I was so I'm like there's this Rosenbaum guy is the only guy in my phone this close talker that is this close talking terrible taste in music dude maybe we'll go to a uh you know a hooters concert together pick up women hooters yeah that's the band that you like no I I don't like dudeers. I don't even know who they are. We'll go to a mic in the mechanics. There you go. There you go.

See, late era genesis. Let's go. So we started having it off. We had lunch in Culver City. We loved horror movies. We had a connection. I liked you. I genuinely liked you.

You were just a good guy. Yeah, I like one of the good ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we hit it off. Soon after you said, hey, I'm doing this thing called PG porn. Dude, that was a long time out. We hung out a lot before PG porn. I don't even know what I'm talking about.

What? I don't know. We became friends long as. before PG porn. I mean, we hung out a lot for a long time. So obviously, I don't remember a lot of this of these things that you're I burped. You burped.

And he, before this, he said one condition, you fart and you're out. And I tweeted that you fart one time and you're out of here. And then I asked him if he was serious. And I said I was fucking serious. And I said, I'm fucking serious. You know, rip ass and you're out. Or I'm out. You said, you're out.

Yeah, I don't even like the, using the phrase rip ass is awful close to just farting. Like, you want to go. Okay, go. all right so we met we started hanging out we started doing uh i came to your house you came to mine we started doing a lot of movie nights or uh movie nights or uh movie nights or game nights we played this game called mafia that was the thing for a while yeah it was a big thing i used to play mafia probably three four five times a week and we play at my house your house a lot i played kyle newman right there's like a lot of people that had mafia games back then yeah and

nathan phillian yeah it was the thing to do it wasn't it wasn't invited to that one but um no there was like the cool people I went, which I always went by myself. And then went to like your house. You don't want to bring close talker to those people's houses. God forbid, I embarrass you by talking too close to one of the time. And I don't want you standing too close to Elizabeth Banks and breaking her out. Disgusting her.

Here's what I found out about you at an early stage in our relationship. Compassionate can be intense. Thinks a lot, always thinking. And I remember playing mafia with you at one time. And we got so worked up between your brother, Sean, Yarvo, who directed the Inferno video for Guardians. Yeah, David Yaroveski. He was one of our best friends. My best friends.

And he's, yeah, he's doing that word. And I'm producing another horror movie that he's directing that. Which I love. I love. And I was Mafia. Yeah. Look up the game, whatever. It doesn't matter.

But I remember I said, you got so mad. Do you remember this? I'm always getting mad at you. No, but this was like, this was rage in your eyes. And you looked at me and I go, I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm not Mafia Rune. And you looked at me and you go, you're a fucking terrible actor. Oh, that'd hurt your feelings.

I remember that. It just, I was taken aback for a second. And I looked at you and then you go, do you know what you said? I probably said like, I mean, in this game. Yeah. Yeah. You go, of course, I don't think you're a terrible actor. Right.

I felt bad. But I didn't, I wasn't really offended. I think you were, you, well, I didn't want to be saying that you're a terrible actor. I don't think you're a very, you know, you're very, you know, you're very, you're very mediocre actor. Thank you. I think that, no, I think you're a very good actor. I think that, uh, you know, I didn't want it to be mean. Yeah. Yeah, somebody did that one time at one of your games. I remember who it was. Somebody was really mean. And I can't say who it was. No, they were mean to a girl that was playing. What they say. Don't say who it was though. They said, I know good acting and I

know bad acting. And you are a bad actor. And the person was an actress. But not a successful. Okay, so it was not a successful actress, I don't think. But it wasn't chauvinist. Maybe it was more of just, like, if he said it to a guy or a girl, it was more just like he, it was really mean. It was, yes, it seemed to be specifically picking up out her, apart her talent. Yeah. And he's a nice guy. I like him, but it just, that was a, that game pushed certain buttons.

I've seen your brother flipped out. I'm very competitive. Very competitive. Yeah. And yeah. So, look, part of that competitiveness probably stems from childhood from growing up with, what, three, four brothers in a sister. four brothers and a sister yeah right within seven years and we're yeah but i don't know if that's i don't know i'm just competitive i was always competitive i don't my you know the weird thing is with my family

like my family's all in the entertainment industry i don't feel competitive with them well that's i don't you got the biggest movies in the history i'm kidding but that's i mean someone could argue that it's like i'm not competitive with them i've i made the top of my brother sean is more famous than me you know he's like more recognizable sure sure sure so it's like my brother Patrick has a hell of a lot of money and my you know my he ran artisan right my brother matt has a 10 Emmy award nomination produces Bill Marr right and uh my brother Brian um he's got some nice kids he's got some beautiful kids he's really they're all amazing people I'm doing starskin hutch with Brian over at Amazon but that now starskin hutch is your new show that you are you created uh well you didn't create Starsky and Hutch, but the new idea. I created them.

Yes, she created a Starzkin and went back into a time machine and I created. But, uh, so that's happening. That's in developmental stages. All right. So let's go back. So you say there's no competitive this growing up in this household.

Now, your dad, Jimmy, who I love, that you don't let a lot of people call you Jimmy. I call you Jimmy. But how many other people call you Jimmy really? My family calls me Jimmy. But, you know, my, my, my best friend, Stevie Blackheart calls me James. Can you quickly do just for me? Because no one else will get it except you if you're listening to you.

Can you please do a. Stevie Black Card Impression. This is exactly how he sounds. He talks kind of like this, and he's really, everything is very serious with Stevie, but he likes to talk a lot about, like, how an air conditioner works. Like, if you need to know that, anyway, that's Stevie. But he's in Guardians.

He's one of the, he plays two different roles. He plays one role in Guardians one and one role in Guardians. He's a Belko experiment. He's been in everything. That's another thing. Which what I want to get to, you put your friends in movies. That's right. Yes, you guys have known for years.

But so growing up, your dad wasn't, you guys always didn't see eye to eye. Yes. What, you did see I-D-I? We always saw I-to-I. We always, that's a lot. I know it's not true. That's why I'm bringing it up. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

Things weren't always easy. Well, listen. I want to start from the beginning. My dad doesn't, my dad's a recovering alcoholic and he was not a recovering alcoholic when I was a kid. So things were much more dysfunctional in my family. as a child than they were when I got into my you know uh 20s what was it like growing up like you know in high school were you drinking them yeah doing drugs then yep how old were you when you first started doing that drinking yeah 12 and who are you drinking with my friends you know

myself right and what were you in what kind of scenes were you in back then were you in the punk scene yeah was a little punk yeah and you were already playing music at that point yeah I started playing music, I guess, when I was 15 or so, but it got more serious as time went on. And what sort of problems would, you know, arise at the house? You'd come home late. You didn't see eye to eye. He was drinking. Were you the one that was more combative with him than the other family members?

I think. I only ask you this because I come from a lot of dysfunction. I think my brother, Patrick and I were, my sister Beth, were all pretty combative with my father. I guess people think Patrick's quieter now, but, you know, I'm a loud person, competitive in general. Who were you, in terms of the family members, did you feel like you were the, definitely the, the worst temper? Or you'd flip out more than the other guys did? No, my brother Brian has a worse temper. He does.

Did you guys get along growing up? Yeah. You did. But you've probably fought, too. Yeah. And so what was it like living with all these kids in the same house? I mean, did you do a lot of things together? Was it like a really close family?

Well, I think that, I think the big, when you had come from a house was. six kids in seven years and your dad is out my dad was out working a lot my dad wasn't around her he's a lawyer he's a lawyer and uh my mom was always doing you know she's a neat freaking was cleaning and so i think the main one of the the the things about my family life that was so different was that we were off left to our own devices quite a bit so i think a lot of people judge their early years by basing it on their relationship to their parents, but my relationships to my parents wasn't that present in my life. It was my relationship to my peers, my brothers and my sister, that were the really strong

relationships, that were the formative relationships that were there when I was a baby and a child. And likewise, even the kids in my neighborhood. You know, I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri in the 70s. In the 80s, in Manchester, Missouri, when things, you know, we knew that there were, for instance, child molesters and things like that, but we didn't. And, you know, we were told a child molester, to me as a kid, was somebody who was in a white, dirty van offering me candy to get into it. So I knew to avoid that situation. I didn't know to avoid the priest at school, you know, which was going on during that time.

Right. But the thing is, I had full freedom. I was four years old and I would walk a mile radius around my house going into people's homes and hanging out with neighbors. Yeah. Like, you know, hanging out with older teenagers and being a little brat and, you know, listening to their, you know, I remember, you know, getting turned on to kiss when I was very young because, you know, this older neighbor, this like young, you know, probably he was probably a preteen or something, but he was, I don't know, 12, but he seemed like he was, you know, older to me, turned me on to kiss, you know, and listening to Kiss records in that kid's basement and stuff. And there was nothing weird going on. But there's something cool about what people to understand about the 80s, in like the late 70s or 80s where there was an instant gratification. It wasn't like, you know, we weren't so technologically advanced.

And if you had to find, you know, you found out information via like, you know, word of mouth. Yeah. And if you, there was no rotten tomatoes. So it was one of those things where it was like, oh, this movie's playing. Everybody saw this or you rented this movie. And it was just a different time period. Fewer choices, but it made when you did find something awesome, it made it all, you know, all that much more exciting, you know. For instance, women, Playboys.

When was your first? Did you discover Playboy at a young age? I was, um. I was very young. I remember, first of all, I remember my learning about what sex was. My parents had to have a talk with me because I started using the word fuck when I was like in first grade or something. And my friend Danny said to me, do you know what fucking is?

And I said, yeah, I don't know, I'm probably putting it off like I did. And he said, fucking is when the dad puts the penis in the vagina of the mom to help make the baby come out. And I acted like I knew what was going on. And I said, yes, I know. I know. But today, the doctor just uses his finger. And what I imagined, somehow I knew how babies were born. And I imagined that there was some ancient ritual in which the man used his penis to stretch open the woman's vagina to help.

the baby come out and then today doctors just used their fingers and to tell you how much Danny knew he goes oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah then now only the doctors use their fingers so that was that was when I first heard about sex and that same kid like maybe a year later brought pictures that he had supposedly found in the woods which I kind of believe because they were sort of covered in dirt and torn up and one of them was just a picture of a man's penis in a woman's butt like that's all it was that was like that was my introduction to sex was anal. Anal.

Yes, that was like the first thing. This is sex. Yeah. I remember I thinking at that age, like, I remember like, that guy's gay. You know, and, you know, people are stupid and it's the 80s and nobody knows. And as a kid, I thought being gay, I know, it sounds funny, was just when two guys just bumped their weenies, their weenie bumpers. They just put their penises together and bump.

Well, that happens. Yeah, they just bump heads. But they do that. We're we need. It's one of the things they can do. It just seems like an odd thing to do. It doesn't seem that like a, like, it's true. turns anyone on oh look bump bump i could be all right like i mean hey if i was yeah so it's kind of

interesting to me is that your dad was a lawyer and then your uncles were all lawyers and you started getting into movies at a young age you were like yeah like what movies were what movies influenced you um well it's i think that i really fell in love with movies around uh star wars first of all I always loved movies. Like I loved Disney movies as a kid. Like, you know, when my mom would say, hey, let's go see, you know, whatever was being re-released that year, Pinocchio or Jungle Book or Cinderella or whatever, I would be so excited to go to the movies.

Like, that was great. But when Star Wars came out, it definitely was, it stirred something more in me. And I really started to fall in love with movies. That's when I learned what a director was, even more so around Raiders of the the Lost Dark, I think. I started to understand what it did. And how old were you? Eight.

Ten. Ten. 11. Right. But it wasn't long after that, too, that there started being movies that I would see on VHS and on cable, which were movies like Friday the 13th and especially I think Night of the Living Dead, which made me go, oh, maybe I could do that. And there were magazines back then, like, Sinifantastique.

Fangoria. Fangoria, but more like there were movies about filmmaking, like kids making movies. movies and that really turned to me on the idea of making my own films and this is before you know video filming it was pretty much VHS I mean it was uh super eight at that time so I started making super eight movies when I was 11 and 12 but wasn't it really horror that sort of yeah I was attracted to horror like I made uh you know one of the first things I ever shot was my my brother killing my other brother and eating his intestines, which I made out of Cairo syrup and, you know, I read about how to do it in the magazine, you know, like Cairo syrup and red food die and it's a

total mess. And, and then you take toilet paper to make it look like intestines or whatever. Do you remember when you were doing it? Did you already feel that the power of like being behind the camera and saying, do this and torturing your brothers? No, no. Did you ever torture? I really did it. Was it collaborative? Was it a fun? I mean, it was I'm a collaborative because I'm pretty much like in charge but like

it was definitely a group fun thing to do was to make a movie and I did a nut like my my first real thing I remember doing

was the stupidest thing in the world it was called commercials the art of the century and it was just me and my friends making a bunch of

commercials that were fake commercials and that were filthy like they were filthy do you still have those I do somewhere I still have what was one Give me the one that you could think of they could actually talk about.

I can't. I can talk. I mean, I remember. So embarrassing. You were a kid. What did you know? They're going to yell at you because you're 12? You know, like we made, it was like we got these tampons or not tampons, like maxi pads.

Okay. Which I think we called tampons because we didn't know the difference. Who does? And we said they were pre menstruated tampons. So we had like these bloody, this is so disgusting. We had like these bloodies. bloody uh maxi pads that we had ketchup on or whatever and we said now you you oh it's so stupid it's embarrassing you were a kid yeah it was twill you made this yesterday i was like i said uh

i said you know that you don't have to go through the the pain of your monthly cycle i'm sure i didn't say it like that it was probably said in a much more stupid way uh now that we have these like that somehow made it so that you didn't have to have your period and uh and then of course, like in typical fashion, one of our maxi pads was actually a piece of wonder bread cut in the shape of that maxi pad with ketchup on it. And then we said, you know, and you can, they make great party snacks. And then he started eating him. Oh my God.

And this is your idea. Yeah. At how old? 12. So now this all makes sense. We could just go straight. I wish I could. That's the only one I can remember.

But that was when we thought that was so funny. I remember we couldn't like it is just. merely us trying to get through the lines and then dying laughing. But you're doing this with your brothers, but you had the one sister, Beth. Did Beth, was she a part of any of this?

Yeah, Beth would be a part of this. But this was not with my brothers. This was with my friends. This was with your friends. This was too personal. This is with my little hooligan friends in Manchester,

Missouri that were. All right. So Pat, Greg. I know you guys are out there. Congratulations, guys. That's what we did. I wonder if those guys even remember that, Danny. So what happened then? You get you get this taste for like cinema and movies and you

have this like I get this is what I got to do. No, I think I just was always a very creative guy. So I, you know, I did a lot of different things. I made movies, but I drew a comic strips and comic books and and started playing music. So I did a lot of different things. I didn't really care about what form my creativity took. How big in the comic books? How big? Yeah, how Big were you? Huge. I mean, that was the center of my life. I felt like comic books were the center of my life. And then I started to turn 12, 13 or so. And then movies were the center of my life. But comic books. And then frankly, I turned 15. And then music was the center of my life. So I kind of had these like really hardcore passions for different times. And what was it about comic books? During that time, I think I was a pretty lonely outcast kid. And I just, I frankly started going. My. I was a problem child and I had to go to therapy and my parents sent me to therapy and I was in therapy and I'd have to go downstairs and wait for my mom to come pick me up. And while I was waiting for my mom to come pick me up, I would be in like the little, it was a Straub's or something. It was like a, you know, a place 7-11.

Right, right, right. So I was down there and I was waiting and there was comic books there, comic book racks. And I'd always read comic books, always been into comic books. But for some reason, right then is when I started to really get into comic books in a big way. And what was your favorite ones that you really called? I was always a big Spider-Man fan and a big Batman fan. So like those guys I loved consistently. But I loved a lot of other, you know.

But Marvel and D.C. kind of went back and forth with because you love both of them. Yeah, I was more of a Marvel guy than a D.C. guy, but I read a lot of D.C. comics. I mean, I loved Batman. I loved Captain Marvel, the D.C.'s, Captain, to Marvel Shazam. I loved metalmen where they were, that was my favorite comic for a long time. So there was a lot of different, uh, different Marvel and D.C. comics I like. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. I'm going to speak to you about something that's going to help you save money. Period. It's Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills

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Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash inside of you. So you're in the comics, then you start getting into movies and music, and you start to evolve and you're growing, you're kind of tasting a little bit of everything, you're probably starting to get into sex. How old were you when you first did it? When you were you talking about my sex life now? I was in high school. Okay. I was probably a little older.

Yeah. I mean, close talking. I was, yeah, that's close talking. I think I was 18. I was 18. I was, you know, because I think I started being. I wasn't that popular with guys, but I was always comfortable, more comfortable, I guess, especially when I started going through my early teen years.

The dark stage. With women, you know. And I was a little punk rock kid and a new wave kid, and that was my crowd, and there was a lot of those girls out there. So I was never really, and I wasn't good at sports. I wasn't really into academics. You got to do a lot of fights? I got to do a lot of fights as a kid, yeah. Those two teeth right there.

Are they real? You know that they're fake. I know. That's why I asked. Yeah, yeah. Well, remember that fight? Remember the guy? Now you're taking questions that you already know the answers to.

Well, we're there. I just want to, you know, I never really asked you this, but do you remember the guy's name who punched your teeth out? I don't know the guy's name. He didn't punch my teeth out. It had dragged me down the street by a car. Oh, that's right. So I got dragged down the road by a car and had my. teeth smashed out my whole face got smashed open that was I was a little bit older right

was 20s so what made you decide I want to go to college well in my family people just went to college it wasn't a situation where you know you had to make a choice on whether you go to college or not that was just the thing that people in my family do well it seems to me like it doesn't even though it seems like that you're in the punk rock you're rebelling you're going to therapy or you're you need outlets you're doing harm I wasn't going to think I went to therapy for a small amount of time when I was like 12 or 13. So you're a little bit different. So thinking maybe why did you go to college isn't completely...

That was not something that I thought outside of the box on, you know, should I not go to college? I just simply, that was always going to happen. So you went to college, where? I went to Loyola Merrimount for a year and got let go of that. And... What do you mean you got let go of that? Well, I was, I was, I had a lot of issues with drugs and...

alcohol and uh you got caught i got sober i got caught yeah and uh i got sober and then i went to uh st lu's university and and finished my education there which was really really great i started to really get into school at that time which i had never been into school before and you're writing pros yeah well i went to school originally for film and then got sober and then i went back to school for psychology but it was like like all my friends were who got sober when they were you know that age that in their late teens. Right. Start thinking about how you're going through therapy,

you're going through treatment, and then you think that, oh, I'm going to do the same thing. Everybody, all my friends, I had like five friends who were sober. They were all in psychology.

But it wasn't too long after that. I took a creative writing course while I was in school and things really sort of just burst open for me. There's a lot of, this is a lot more complicated than this. I was playing music during this time. Because you dropped that at school for a while

to play for the icons. Yes. Right. And what was your favorite song, the most numerous songs? Well, I played in two bands. I played in a band called The Icons and a band called The Pots. People know the icons more now because we recorded, but the pods were actually the more successful. Did you have a lot of people who toured around?

Following you? Yeah, we were pretty successful for that type of thing. Were you making money? We were surviving. You would go on tour. Yeah. You actually go to many cities across the country? Throughout the Midwest.

Throughout the Midwest. Yeah. And you had a nice following. How did you feel being on stage? Were you very confident? No. I liked recording and I loved writing songs. And occasionally I'd have a night in which I really loved playing.

But the truth is, is, you know, when I'm directing, I feel like I'm the best there is at this. Like there's nobody that can do what I do. That doesn't even necessarily mean I'm the best. It just means I can do. Nobody else can do what I can do. Right. When I was singing, I didn't really feel that. And it's true.

I mean, I wasn't a great singer. I was a pretty good songwriter and a very good performance. very good performer, but I was not a great singer. There are a lot of guys that aren't great singers that are great writers. But I didn't want to be that person. Was there an ego thing or you just think deep down, you go, hey, I don't want to explore this because I don't like the end game. I'm not going to be as successful as I know I should be.

I think that's part of it. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I wasn't, you know, I played in one band that was very, very tight. And it got to be that it was very difficult playing that, that music and going out night after night doing the same thing and we were starting to make a little bit money but it wasn't happening as quickly as I wanted it to happen although it wasn't really that long but when you're 19 years old two years seems like a hell of a long time right right so it just was very difficult and when that band broke up that's when I decided to think about what other options

was it hard was it hard saying did you did you did you in your mind because I know you did you think I'm a failure because I'm not exploring this more. I'm letting it go. Is it hard to let it go? No, I didn't completely let it go. I still was playing music after that. But the band I was in was broken up and that was my, the guy I was playing it with decided to stop. So I didn't feel like I had really let it go.

It was like somebody quit. The band was over. Right. So I was on my own. I think for me, that was really the key to my career. Because at that point, I said, you know, listen, I knew I wanted to be successful. I still wanted to be rich and famous and all those things. But I wanted to really take a look at what I was good at.

What was I best at, you know? So I took that time to figure out what I was really good at, which is what I think college is for. And I think if more people looked at things like that, you'd have, you know, a little bit more efficiency in the world, you know. This is amazing that I'm having this conversation with you that we got here because I was going to go on another topic and what you just said, it's something that I've gone through that I still go through and I just talked to my uncle yesterday about this, the exact thing that you just said, which is like, you know, I'm doing this and I'm doing this and I'm doing this and I don't suck at any of them. I'm pretty good at this and I'm kind of good at that. He's like, you need to stop focusing on what you're good at or pretty good at and focus on. on what you're great at and stop bullshing it around. And he said, the other things make them hobbies. He says, just focus on what you're great at or what you really can excel in and be the best what you can be.

And it's funny because I just heard that from him and now I'm hearing it from you. I didn't know that that moment in your life was going to be so important. Oh, it's really important. I think it's, you know, I think that people generally live in America, at least, with this Follow your dreams theory of living. I don't think it's a hundred percent of a misleading way of living, but I do think that it needs to be explored a little bit more than it currently is because people have ideas about I want to be a famous movie star and then they live their lives.

They just want to be a famous movie star, but it's not really about the craft of acting. It's not about the way you're doing it. It's not even really about the amount of talent you have, but that's your dream, so you're going to follow it. I mean, at least if you love it, you love it. If you love acting and you don't just want to have this dream in your head of being a famous movie star, at least you love the process of it. But there's too many people out there that have dreams. They don't really love the process of attaining those dreams. Our lives are not the dreams. Our lives are the process of attaining those dreams. So if that's what you're living in moment to moment is the process

of being alive, what is that that you love, as opposed to this? idea of something outside of yourself. You know, when I was a kid and I imagined myself being a famous rock star, I didn't really imagine like myself, like going through the process of learning how to sing and playing instruments and all this stuff. I imagine myself kind of from an outside perspective of people looking at me and how cool I would look on stage. Well, I can never experience that unless I'm watching videos of myself. You know, I can't experience, I don't experience myself from the outside. I experience myself from the inside. And I think that follow your dreams too often has to do with people looking at themselves from the outside and not the interior

of themselves. And it's the interior of ourselves that really make us strong and can make us better. How much do I owe you for this therapy session, James? How am I 45 years old and just like, you know what it is? I've talked about this before, but these podcasts become somehow becomes sort of like therapy or, you know, an awakening for me. And certainly, and certainly, ways a little bit and for for this conversation this has opened up a huge can of worms which is you know an important time in my life where I'm 45 years old it's like I don't want to be 80 and go man why don't you try this why don't you try stand up why don't you try music why don't you try that why are you scared why and I'm going balls out and saying

fuck it I'm going to do it I'm going to fail I don't care but then there's the other part where it's like why'd you waste your time on a lot of shit that you shouldn't have wasted your time on So it's getting through all that stuff and what really, I guess what really comes down to for me is like being happy, like everyone else, the search for what makes you happy. If you could honestly do something that makes you happy and is rewarding and fulfilling, that's what you do. Yeah. And hopefully you're good at it. To some degree, but happy is too simple. I mean, it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

It's, you know, there's a line in my movie Super where Frank Darbo, the character played by Rain Wilson, says happy people are arrogant. like he thinks happiness is overrated and I do to some happy I don't know what happiness means like how do you measure that like what does that mean to me like the idea of fulfillment is much more powerful than the idea of happiness even the idea of joy is more powerful than happiness because the truth is to acquire uh fulfillment and to acquire joy it takes a lot of work a lot of not happy to get to those places um and the idea of happiness somehow seems too slight to me. It seems it doesn't give my life much purpose. I want to be of use to other people. And I want my life to mean something to the world around me. And I want this

place to be better at the end of my life than it is right now. And those things don't always have a lot to do with happiness. I want to be fulfilled. I want to feel like what I'm doing is good. Getting a blow job makes me happy. Sure. But does that, but hang on, hang on. Is that what life is all about?

I mean, it's not. I don't know. The term doesn't really, you know, excite me that much. I guess in some ways I'm saying, yes,

I want to be happy. But it's how do you get there? Well, I think, I think if you could say, if you have the choice to do things that make you happy for even an hour or two hours

or a connection with somebody or that moments are happiness, it's not like people, yeah, it's a delusion to be happy all the time. No one's happy all the fucking time. It's arrogance. I agree with that.

Yeah, but also it's like they think, oh, I just want to be happy. Well, I don't know. What do you want to do? How about I want to be happier than I am? Maybe that's the goal. Yeah. I'm not saying me, the proverbia. Yeah.

It's interesting. And it makes perfect sense to me, what you just said. Yeah. All right. So you went to Columbia University. You decided to get your master's, right? Yep. And you did drop out for a year.

And then you came back? Not to Columbia. Columbia. Where did you drop out? That was Loyolaola. Yeah, between Loyola and St. Louisville Shoe. And then you went how many years to Columbia for your master's? Two years.

Two years to get your master's in what? Oh, what did I get my master's in? I got my master's in creative writing and fiction. And so while I was in Columbia, though, is when I started working for trauma. Lloyd Kaufman. So I was going to be a novelist, and I was a novelist. I put out a novel. During that time at Columbia, I needed work.

and my brother knew someone. Which brother? Matt. Who was working at Cinemax at the time. Didn't Cinemax do goodbye, Emmanuel, Emmanuel. Was that Cinemax? Skinimax showed those movies. My brother was actually a guy who was in programming,

and he programmed a lot of the, whatever, the Skinimax stuff. I remember being nine and just seen those. Yeah, it was great. I loved it. Oh, yeah, young lady Chatterley's lover was my favorite. which I enjoyed. Do you remember that song, though? Do you remember that song?

What? Goodbye. No, I don't remember the song. Emmanuel. Yeah. She'd get the MP3. But yeah, so while doing that, I went in for a meeting with Lloyd Kaufman who ran trauma. How'd you get that?

Through Matt? Matt's boss sent Lloyd my resume, and then I went in for a regular meeting. Were you nervous? He was meeting with different people. Because you were a fan at this point, right? Well, I was maybe a little nervous, but I don't really get nervous about stuff like that so much. I mean, maybe I was nervous. I don't know. Really? You don't get nervous about meeting famous people or anything. You've never been like that.

I was, there's a couple of people I've been a little bit starstruck by. I met Stan Lee when I first moved to L.A., and I was starstruck by him. I was pretty starstruck by Sylvester Stallone, who I played it off on set. Again, it's not that, just a little tiny starstruck. I still am. But, I mean, we've become, Sly and I have become very good friends. Right. What does he do?

Does he call you like, Hey, Jimmy, how are you doing? He sends me all sorts of videos and texts. Hey, check out this video. Amazing. Yeah. This is me with it.

We hang out. We smoke cigars together. Why don't you ever call me? Because he expressly said he don't bring that Rosenbaum guy. Close talker. He said, close talker. Yeah. Because he said on set to me, he said, he goes,

yeah, you know what? You and Jimmy should come over. Smoke some cigars. Like, I don't smoke cigars. Maybe that's the reason, too. Yeah. I'm a little bit of a pussy. I smoked my first cigar with you back there.

Yeah. In your house. Yeah. Okay. So you're with Lloyd Kaufman and the meeting goes well. He says that's how it started. Well, I thought I was going to get a job like working on set as a PA or something. And instead, he found out that I was going to Columbia, which I think was very impressive to him.

And he also found out that I was doing, I was doing monologues at the time. So I was doing basically, I was performing in a lot of poetry slams. And he found that out. And so, what's a poetry slam? Well, it's a kind of performance, you know. I mean, it was, for me, it wasn't even, there's a guy by the name of Eric Bogosian who's on the billions today, okay? Did you ever see sex drugs and rock and roll?

No, but that, he used to do these performance monologues. And so I started doing that. I was really into Eric Bogosian. So I started writing these monologues and doing these different characters. Right. And I was, I did really well at it. And, um, and because poetry slams were sort of the thing that were happening at the time. And I guess my monologues had some.

amount of poetry and some of them I would do these monologues at poetry slams which were like these competitions and you start getting popular at this yeah people liked you a lot yeah and did you we skipped over a portion of you're you're performing now well I always forget about it I mean I always forget about that part of my life but like yeah it was actually probably more successful doing that than I wasn't playing music well how hard is that for you to just start getting up because you hadn't really done a lot of acting right it was so relieving to me because when I was playing with bands I relied on all these other people to get things right and was always so incredibly frustrating to me and suddenly I was I was out doing something by myself just straight performance and I only had myself to rely on

so I could work as hard as I wanted you know when you're playing in bands I'm a workaholic I love to work all the time and you know you can't get these guys to play as much as you want them to play and for me it was like I was able to just like do my thing and do it again and again and again get it perfected and then go out on stage and perform and everything was up to me everything was down to me I wasn't singing I was just performing so that was more comfortable and how long were these these slams the the performance pieces that when you got up and performed by yourself how long would they be a few minutes a few minutes yeah so that was a lot of fun that was so he was impressed by your resume he was impressed that you went to colombie was impressed by these so he asked me you know

maybe you should write one of our movies and I said whoa that isn't really what I expected. Okay. The whole thing was sort of stupid, too, because then I got paid $150 to write this movie, Tromeo and Juliet. But I went to Tromio and Juliet. It wasn't like I went there to like find my life or my career or anything like that. I went for money. And so he hired me to write Trimmy and Juliet. I was still pretty excited about $150. I could get my name on an actual film that would be out there forever. So I made Tremian Juliet and got a job at Troma after. And you were on set on the movie as well?

Oh, yeah. I directed the actors. I choreographed the sex scenes. I did all of that stuff. That was, you know, from a very early moment, I saw that I could see this thing in my head. And I started taking over. I started becoming a director. So that was a very important part of your life to be able to do this movie.

I found myself. I would come home. You know, my girlfriend at the time would say that, you know, you've, you've, you've, You seem like yourself for the first time. I came home so alive from set every day. I'm like, this is, I felt like I was born to do this. Like, this is what I was meant to do. I'd been searching for a long time.

I had been open for a long time. And I had found the thing that I was the very best at in the world, along with writing. But they're kind of the same thing to me. I mean, making movies is, it's storytelling. So directing is just the final draft of the screenplay. But it was a great, it was a great time for me. And when was it time for you to leave? and do your own thing.

Was that when you wrote specials, the specials? I was at Troma as the head of production. And we had a bunch of TV stuff we did during that time that I was shooting, like nonstop shooting stuff, which was great experience. Because I shot, you know, hundreds of hours of material, edited hundreds of hours of material. Well, not edited, but many, many hours of material. And then Lloyd hired me to write his book, which is something like... How I learned the toxic event or something. Everything I know about filmmaking, I learned from the toxic events.

If you haven't seen, it's one of... It's a cult, absolute classic. And my title was sex and drugs and toxic waste, which I like better. So anyway, he hired me to write that. I got some money for that. And so at that time, I'm like, I'm going to take this money. I'm going to quit trauma. And I'm going to go start writing screenplays, which I'd been writing all along anyway, more seriously.

And one of them was the specials? One of them was a screenplay called The Specials. Was Lloyd pissed off when you left? Or he understood? He really understood he was very sweet towards me. And, you know, Lloyd has treated me for most of my career like a son, really. And he was very, very sweet to me about it. I think that, you know, it suck.

But there's people come to trauma and then leave. That's the way things happen when you don't pay people hardly any money. $150. That was a good price for her. I was getting paid a weekly wage by that time. So I was getting paid. Right. Fine.

So then you start writing and you move up California. Well, I wrote the screenplay called the specials, which. Rob Load. I started giving to everybody. Right. And Jamie Kennedy got the script. And Jamie Kennedy fell in love with the script. and then I got a manager off of that

I got an agent off of that I got the movie made off of that I acted in the movie with my brother Sean and Rob Lowe and Jamie Kennedy and Thomas Aden Church and we had a fun time doing that and you know the movie is

was a mixed results Why is that? Were you not happy with how it came out? No, no. I mean it's like a lot of people love the movie still. Somebody tweeted at me this morning

about how they still think it's the funniest superhero movie what was your problem with it um it isn't it didn't really it has some of what was in the script but it doesn't have the whole thing the execution the execution of it yeah that's probably little stilted so then listen i don't like any of the movies i wrote and didn't direct really you know i mean i like i like some of them much more than others because you want that control to translate the writing into what you're just see what i see in my head while i'm writing right it's it's hard to like anything yeah i mean it's it's it's It's, you know, sometimes you're really lucky like you are with, you know, like I was with Dawn of the Dead, which Zach Snyder directed.

He did a great job. The movie was, in a lot of ways, very different from what I had written. There was a lot more, I think, drama and stuff. It's one of my favorites. I've told you this before many times. It's one of my, I think, first of all, there's so many remakes in Hollywood and, you know, they always see people run out of ideas and this. And it was one of those things where you go, wow, this is. Yeah.

This competes with the first one. Yeah. And I just, I thought in the writing and the comedy together and the horror of it all, yeah. It was just made the perfect. Yeah. Well, like I said, I think that Zach did a great job and he brought something different to it because he's a visionary and he brought his own thing to it. So in that case, I was a little bit happier with it because it was its own thing.

Right. But in other cases, it just seems like a milky, a much milkier version of what the script was. And that's how I felt about. ask to direct it? Were you like, I want to direct this? Let me direct it. No, they actually, no. At that point, you didn't have that control, that sort of. I did have that control. You're looking at it. So what happened? I just chose not to direct it. You just didn't want to direct that. Was there a reason for it? I was very poor. I was very in debt. And I had moved to Los Angeles and suddenly I was getting offered a lot of money to write studio films. Right. And also I had just broken up from a sort of dead end. long-term relationship in which I wasn't very fulfilled and I was in Hollywood with women and having fun for the first time in my life and I think that those things were you a little preoccupied with other things too or you was it a happy time for you then were you doing very that was one of the happiest

times in my life and why is that because I think that I had been in New York working like a maniac for six years like doing nothing but working day and night night and date. Work, work, work, work, work, trying to create this thing for myself. And suddenly, the doors sort of flooded open when I wrote the specials. I got a great agent, a great manager, a great lawyer. I had the whole package. And I started, you know, I was out here. My two brothers were here with me. So me and Brian and Sean were together. We were hanging out with Jamie Kennedy and Judy Greer. That was sort of our little. I lived with Jamie. That was our little group of people. and we were just really happy.

It was, you know, I was in New York. It was beautiful. Los Angeles and had some space around me. It was really a fun, fun time for me. And starting to get paid for being creative, like in a real way, not in a way of, like, making, you know. What was your first big paycheck? How much was it? Well, Josh Whedon hired me to write a pilot script, and I think that was 75 grand.

And what year was this? 1998, I think. Which was a lot of money. Yeah. It's probably 150. Yeah. In that same year, I got hired to write Spy versus Spy right after that, and that was for significantly more money. So those were my first two big paychecks.

I think at first with the specials, I didn't think that they would let me direct it. And as we started going down that road, suddenly it became apparent to me that they would let me direct it. But by that time, there were other things happening. You're like, I don't know if I want to direct this now. Part of it, and I think part of it was we had already hired a director. And maybe also do you think there's part of it where you're like, I'm growing as a writer. I'm getting better and better at writing screenplays. And maybe the one that I end up directing is going to be better.

Did you think anything like that or you didn't, you weren't worried about that? Yeah, I might have been a little afraid if I was able to do it yet or not. I might have been a little afraid of how well I was going to be able to do. I don't think it was a matter of finding a better screenplay. But I think it could have had a little bit to do with how much confidence I had in my own abilities. Right. Did you fight with that a lot when you moved out to Hollywood in terms of like, now you've got this manager, now you've got this agent,

now you're starting to get work, now you're meeting all these famous people and you're getting involved. Did you ever doubt yourself? Were there times where you're like, am I good enough to be here? When are they going to catch on that I'm really not as good as they think I am?

Do you ever have those thoughts? Because I've heard, I've had those thoughts. I hear other people who've talked about that. Insecurities that sort of either make fear your tailwind or your headwere? Well, I have plenty of insecurities. I think my insecurities,

it's not that I have no insecurities when it comes to my job. job. I do. But my insecurity probably manifests themselves greater in other ways and relationships. You know, I'm much more confident in my work life than I am in my personal life. That's much of a scarier thing to me. I'm much more confident being fully myself and being vulnerable with my work than I am in a relationship. Like that's a very clear disparity in my life that I've tried to work on and get better at. Do you think, because you were married to Jenna, Jenna Fisher,

do you think that was part of it? Because it was, I mean, how old were you when you were married? I was in my early 30s. Early 30s. 30s. Yeah. Were you one of those guys that thought you were going to get married one day and have a family like yours and, and, I mean, were those, you did? Yeah, I always thought I would get married and then have kids and do all that stuff.

And where was it? It just didn't work out. A lot of times it just doesn't work out. With Jenna? Yeah. Because I think you're friends now. You've been friends. Yeah, I'm very close friends with Jenna. Yeah, it seemed almost immediate. It seemed like it was. It was, listen, I think that Jen and I worked on our marriage for a long time and we did our best. I think at the end of the day, we were much better friends than we were marriage partners. And I think that we weren't that good at being married to each other, but we were very good at getting divorced and being loving towards each other in that process. And we're very close friends. She's like my sister today.

So we, yeah, I don't know. What's the question around that? I just kind of just seeing it where it went. Come on. What's going on? Is there a question? There's one of the questions. Just why I want to know, you know, why things don't work out.

And I think it's a rarity when someone, like I'm, I'm friends with girls that I've dated. Because I'm not a mean person. I think when I date someone, I'm very, you know, there's insecurities and there's things about myself that I can't stand that I'm very, I get even more and more open about it. And if it doesn't work out, I don't think that, you know, it depends. how hard it is for, you know, whoever does the breaking up, whoever is getting broken up with. You know, I tend to be friends. Like, my friend just had a baby and she's married and he's a great guy.

And it's easy and it's great. No, I'm friendly with most of my exes. Not all of them, most of them. Sure. Sure. I won't go there at all. So what was next? Scooby Dews, how did that all happen?

Well, I wrote a screenplay for Spy v. Spy and Lorenzo de Bonaventura, who was the head of Warner Bros. production at the time really liked that screenplay and they didn't never made it but he did then pursue me to write the Scooby-Doo movie. And so I agreed and I wrote it and then I wrote the second one. Was that the first time you ever felt real pressure because you're now dealing with a studio for the most part? Yeah, I never again, I don't really get too pressured about stuff but I it was definitely the first time I had to juggle a lot of different. people's desires. That was very difficult, you know, because I'm the screenwriter, but I'm just a screenwriter. And then there's a director and actors and producers and a studio. And they all

have different opinions about what that movie's supposed to be. And my job becomes not after a certain point, which is the lesson I learned on that first Scooby-Doo movie was it seemed like my job after a certain point didn't have anything to do with writing a good story, didn't have anything to do with me being happy with what I had was doing. It had to do with me making this person happy and this person happy and this person happy and this person happy. So I was living a very external reality while I was putting this puzzle together so that everybody was happy

and the movie would get made. Did you feel like you were losing control? Not losing control, but I did. I had no control. And that's something you can't deal with. I can deal with it. But it was not the, it was not the, you know, the ultimate experience of what I wanted to be having you know there are worse things in life than being a high paid screenwriter well i'm not saying movie that gets made but sure i don't like being it for me fulfillment as an artist being a screenwriter is zero now if i write a screenplay and then i go and give it to somebody it's

kind of fun like i did with the belco experiment yeah last year but in general i wouldn't want to be just a screenwriter like that would not appeal to me it's a very difficult job in how Hollywood, because it's a very artistic pursuit in which the art is not the screenplay. It's a movie based on that screenplay. So it's not really fulfilling to me. What would you say to, like, young filmmakers? Because I don't think you get that control that you have now, even when there's, I think you have the most control probably you've ever had.

Or now they just have, they trust you. I've been pretty lucky. I've had pretty much control on most things I've done. I mean, so on the movies I've directed, I've pretty much been able to make exactly the movie I've wanted to make. Slither, super, yes. You know, they asked me to cut two things out of Slyther, no big deal. Super, total control. Guardians, there was a little bit of muddledness at the development stage.

Sure. But then once we made the movie, it was cool for me. And then Guardians 2, total. So I've been very, very fortunate in that respect. As a director, I've been fortunate. I think there's a lot of directors that probably feel a little bit like what I felt like as a screenwriter. But that, fortunately, hasn't been my experience. I've been able to maintain control of the products.

And Slyther, that's when you met Rooker. Yeah, I met Michael Rooker when he was auditioning for the movie Slyther. And you were a big fan of his. I was a big fan of his. I always thought he was a vastly underrated actor. As did I. And I always wanted to put him in. And I wrote a screenplay called Full Tilt many years ago, action movie in which I wanted Rooker to play the lead.

And funnily enough, I wanted it to be Michael Rooker in one of the main leads and Sylvester Stallone and the other. Well, they did Clifinger and work with. But yeah, that's, yeah, that's where Rooker and I started our, you know, and I thought I was so lucky and excited to meet him. And then he ended up being Michael Rooker and being a part of my life. Which is crazy. Now it's a terrible tragedy. Now he is the cross I bear every day. I want you to know that I just used your bathroom and I wipe my ass with Michael Rooker

toilet paper. Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah. It was in there. I have Michael Rooker toilet paper in every bathroom in the house. So you wipe your ass with his face every day. Well, it's really low quality toilet paper.

So it's more for guests than this for actual people whose anus I care about. Well, thank you. I approved of it. It was gentle. So you met Rooker. you fell in love with him. There was just something about him. What?

Did you like his, just his work ethic and how he responded to you and just the way you guys connected? Because like when you meet Rooker, if people don't know him, you got like, this is a crazy intense guy. Yeah, he's a maniac.

I've always had a sort of love of maniacs. I mean, there's a lot of things about Lloyd Kaufman. That's a maniac. There's a lot of things about Rooker. That's a maniac. You know, I had a friend when I was a kid named Wayne St.

Wayne, who was a professional wrestler slash, you know, a painter, incredibly talented, guy he was my good friend i i love these these oddball maniacs that are out there i think there's so much uh is there something about that is there something about you that maybe wants to like i'm gonna i'm going to i'm not for lack of a better word like control this guy but i'm gonna get him i'm gonna he's so all over all over the place no i just think there's probably a part of me that's like that and so

i can relate to those people you know i relate to a lot to people who have anxiety issues i'm able to deal with actors who have anxiety issues which is a lot of them because I can relate to that. Right. You know, I can relate to people that may, oddballs of all stripes, really, I think, is the thing that is where I feel like I feel. Do you think I'm an odd ball at all? Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. I appreciate that. Yeah. Rotten Tomatoes said Slyther was 50 best ever reviewed horror movies. Or what, right? So how'd that make you feel? Good. It saved my life.

It was like, because Slyther came out. It made no money in the box office. But it was a huge critical. success and so that really that that kept my name alive as a director I remember running around with you and just like seeing like screenings of it like years later yeah still still people love the moving yeah yeah yeah well I say so there's more popular now than it ever was I mean every Halloween it seems to get more and more more popular and the blue ray was just put out finally by screen factory great addition people go go buy it now Amazon you start doing a bunch of shit

not shit just a bunch of stuff you were you were you were You hosted Scream Queens on VH1. You were doing, we did, now I could say, James Gunn's PG-Porn. Right. Where did that idea even come from? I don't remember. It came from my brother, uh, what is PG-Porn? Just to tell, you know, what is, it's summed up in like a,

PG-Porn is a web series. It's, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a show for people who, uh, love everything about pornography, except for the sex. Except for the sex. And so it's a plays like the little skits in between. Right. They're a little fun vignettes or, whatever little scenes and the acting scenes and every episode has a different mainstream actor

and a different uh porn actor and who was i with i was pg i was you were with beladonna i was i was charlie brown was with beladonna nathan my friend michelle who's wonderful like honestly just like one of the sweetest to work with nicest people in the world not doing porn anymore at all but she's a great person and um and you put all your friends in it nathan was in it uh Alan Tudick, yeah, Craig Robinson, brother Sean, you know, a lot of people. I love guys like you, not because we're friends, but you always find a way to put your friends and stuff. You don't like the early stuff.

You know, we do PG porn. I was like, you know, anytime you ask me to do something, I was always like, of course, whatever, let's do it, PG porn. I'm a pretty loyal person. I've had, again, I've had the same agent and the same manager and the same lawyer my entire career. You know, I've had the same best friend for the past, you know, 20 years. there are people who I end up not being friends with anymore or not being whatever but it's rare most people I stick around I stick I stick with the same friend you are lawyer you're always the guy who you know and it's hard because now you live a little farther way but it's not actually that far but it is a little farther way where we used to always come to your house right yeah it would be the same group and it was just easy for everybody yeah it was easy you know and we have we have sushi at the same what was a sushi place we called we a kazoo kazoo and the great thing is you haven't changed a fucking bit i mean zero yeah and i can honestly say that but

what's changed is your career your career has gone from busy to fuck very busy that's that's that's true that's just the answer so when i say james what's up and i don't hear right back from me and i go dude you go oh what's up sorry i know i fuck with you but you know i don't yeah you do you get the dude right yeah yeah yeah yeah and you know i don't think twice about it i know you're busy i know how busy you are i know one you know they'll be like hey i'm having people at my house hey i'm having the white elephant party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, you know, we're having dinner.

It's, it's hard to juggle. It's hard to have a personal life. How do you do that? It is. How do you have a personal life, a relationship, and the career you do? And with family, how do you juggle that? And do you feel guilty a lot because you don't? I think it's about taking, it's about taking full advantage of the time that you spend

with someone. I think a lot of people are in relationships. And when they spend time with that person, you know, they're just kind of spending time with that person but how can you make that time that you spend with that person quality time because if you make it quality time then it's 10 times it's worth 10 times as much as non quality time a lot of people you know spend a lot of time with their significant others but they're not really talking and discussing and dealing with what's going on inside of themselves it's not real intimacy so for me at least with the relationship part of it which is something

I've tried to work on, you know, because I haven't been that successful with relationships, as you well know. Well, I think you have to your capacity. You've worked hard on them. I've worked hard on them. And I've dated a lot of really, like, nice people, like good quality people and people that I still really love, but they haven't lasted. Right.

And so now I've been with Jen for two years, and it's been a really good experience. and um but i'm working in a way that i i've never worked before i've noticed that because those two one there was this big dinner last year that we went to and i remember her giving the speech or something yeah just getting up and talking and i was just kind of shocked because i i i knew jem but i didn't you know and the way she spoke about you yeah and it was just amazing to hear her say these words and which we all knew but and i think you even i could tell you were just taking it back you don't I don't think you love when people sit there and praise you you I don't think it's hard for you to you know except and then I was at your house a couple months

ago and I remember just talking to the two of you yeah and you know you're very hard on yourself and you'll say well you know I'm like you'll you'll say something like well I'm fucking difficult on and she's like no you there's like I think part of it is that you're just accepting of like who you are I'm trying the best I can but there's something in me that's I'm not it's not the easiest thing for me. Like you said, you're a little, you're in control when you're working and the relationships are a little tougher. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, for me, the biggest thing that I think I've learned the past couple years is people always ask me about, you know, how do you get through writer's block when you're writing? This will come around to relationships in just a second.

But of course, I have to relate it to work because that's what I'm comfortable with. Anyway, you know, I have this thing. When I'm writing a screenplay or making a movie, I know, especially like when I'm writing a screenplay, I'm going to come upon a time when I feel like this is all shit, this is totally a mess, and I should just walk away. Like, it's going to feel so hard. Like, I'm never going to make this good. And I've learned over, you know, 20 years of writing professionally, whatever, that that's just a state of mind. Like, when you write or when you're directing a movie, you're going to get to a place where your brain goes, this is shit. This is awful.

Sometimes it's right. Sometimes it's wrong. Doesn't really matter. The only thing you need to do is just to keep going, kind of ignore it, let it be there, let yourself experience, you know yourself saying this is terrible, and just kind of walk through it. Don't give up. Just keep walking. It's not that hard. It's not like you have to like make everything perfect. You just have to keep walking forward. That's it. And eventually I found that things that seem to be a problem in a screenplay, if I just walk forward, will eventually work themselves out just by taking the effort to try to move forward. same thing when I'm in the editing room or anywhere else. I haven't really done that in my relationships. What happens is my brain goes, oh my God, this is fucked up. This is terrible. I got to get the fuck out of here.

And then I get the fuck out of here. And what I've learned is that my brain does the same thing in relationships that it does in writing. It tells me that everything is terrible and I have to leave. But instead of listening to that voice and letting that voice, voice be in charge of me, I make my own choices for myself and I choose to just keep walking forward because my experience has been when I just walk forward, you get to something really beautiful and closer and more intimate on the other side. And that voice in me is the thing in me that's trying to stop me from being a better artist. It's a thing that's trying to stop me

from being a better person. It's a thing that's trying to stop me from being vulnerable and being true and putting my ass on the line, whether it's with my art or with my personal life. And so there's nothing wrong with it. That's okay. That voice can be because you can't change it. You know, it's there. It's not there. It doesn't matter. But what your actions are in, you know, while you're with that voice, that's what makes a professional over someone who's not a professional. You know, that's what makes somebody who becomes a successful screenwriter or a successful filmmaker or a successful actor or a successful acupuncture. over somebody who doesn't because they just keep going.

The only difference is you have to write the ending to a movie. In a relationship, you just don't know what the ending is ever. So what's the difference? Well, I mean, you don't have to write the ending to the screenplay. Like my big change in my life was I had a big, you know, I've told you this before, I had a big spiritual awakening when I was young. and I used to like write like the first chapter. I wrote the first chapter of probably 20 novels, you know?

I wrote, you know, the first act of 10 screenplays that I didn't finish. And I think that when I finally got that, what I needed to do to be successful was just finish whatever I started. That was a huge thing for me. Just take it to the end. Maybe it'll suck. Maybe it won't suck. But just take it to the end. Finish what you did.

you know yeah relationships are trickier obviously because sometimes you don't want to stay you know because if you take that if you're in a relationship that's an abusive relationship which you're being abused and i don't mean like physically abused it could be physically abused it could also be emotional abuse or you know it could be somebody who's just not kind to you which I've been in those relationships before you know you don't want to stick around you don't want to necessarily subject yourself to that but if you find something decent you find something good You find somebody who loves you and who cares about you and wants to make it work. But it's imperfect like we like I am.

Yeah. You know, that's a different story. But they say, you know, what's the saying? Somebody said it. Many people have repeated it. If someone doesn't have, you know, 20% of what you're looking for or 30% that's okay. Because you leave that person and then you're looking for the 70% that they don't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you get the 30%. There's something like that, but it's true. I mean, it's some weird math. I'm not, I didn't say I was good at math. 7 do you let's get into guardians let's do it all right first of all what hair gel do you use because I really like it because your hair hasn't moved a lot but it still seems fresh and it does move I'm not kidding when I said I woke up this morning and this is what my hair was you woke up that good looking I think you're a good looking guy I just told you you're one of

the best directors there are first of all when guardians of the galaxy came about and you've I'm sure you told the story but I don't know what guardians of the galaxy was I don't think a lot of people know. I think it was a... Yeah, no, not many people did. I did. You did. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm a comic book guy. Of course. Of course. And you were reading Spider-Man and Stanley early and this is what... How did this happen? Was it a meeting with Marvel? Just somebody emailed you? No, I mean, they wanted to meet me to talk about, you know, some project. I don't think I knew what it was before I went in there. And then they pitched me on Guardians of the galaxy. You know, it's like, I love the guardians, but I don't know if I can see it. Is that what you said?

Well, it seemed like the way they talked about it, it seemed like, you know, because there's this raccoon, right? And I love raccoons. It's one of my favorite animals. But it seemed like it was Bugs Bunny in the middle of the Avengers the way they talked about it. And so I was like, okay, fine. And I smiled and said, thank you. And then I got in my car and drive home. And I was going to pass on it.

And that wasn't it? Because on the way home, all of a sudden, I said, okay, well, let's say that there really was a talking raccoon. And how could that exist? And I saw who Rocket was in my head, who wasn't what he was at the time, which was this incredibly tortured little creature who was an animal who was turned into something more than what he was supposed to be than what he's meant to be. And he was like Frankenstein's monster in a way. And he's just an incredibly tortured, ostracized, flawed, little character who has no

no connections to anyone else because there is nothing else like him out there and at the center of guardians was this incredibly sad fact that's where it started that was the seed of it and that was that was me i'm right rocket you know i feel like i'm alone like i don't connect other people well millions of people obviously feel that way exactly right and so then from that it started building i could just started to see the whole thing. I'm like, well, listen, you know, I love Star Wars so much when I was a little kid. I wouldn't want to make Star Wars, but what was it that I felt like when Star Wars came out? What kind of movie would I have to make to make people like today feel like I felt when I was a kid? And so it just started growing into this thing. And then by the time I was

home, I saw the whole movie in my head. And I went and I sat down and I typed up this 17 page document about the visuals of Guardians of the Galaxy and what it would be visually from a visual perspective because I knew. And not based on the original guardians. No, because it's about it. It was a cinematic language, not a comic language. It was about, you know, how we could bring color back to cinema. It was about how, you know, I love alien. I love Blade Runner, but those movies came in. They were very dark movies. And that darkness pervaded all science fiction that was supposed to be real for many years and to be able to kind of bring back the fun of Star Wars, but of Flash Gord and these movies that I loved as a kid and bring that back into people's lives. And I felt like it was a hole

that was missing. I could, I felt it very distinctly that this could be something incredibly special. And it was something that people, I felt needed in their lives. Were you already at this point thinking of music? Because I know there's a soundtrack in your head. No, I didn't, I didn't think of the music till later. That really came in when I wasn't going to write the screenplay at that time. And I hadn't even read the initial drafts. There was a number of different writers at the beginning. I hadn't read the initial drafts at that time. Right. And that came later. That came when I started to write the treatment. That's when the music and then Welcome and became a part of it. So how long after that did they read this treatment? Did they

say, hey, we were interested in you? Or did you go in again? Oh, that was much earlier. That was when I was wrote the, when I wrote that visual thing, I flew into Wilmington and met with Kevin Fagie and Lou Diaspizito. And we talked about what the movie could be. And it was shortly after that, I got hired as director. So I think I was, I was up against initially like six other directors. And then it was two and then it was just me. Uh, anyway, that's, uh, that was, that was it? Was there something also, I mean, maybe this sounds stupid, but even something to Scooby do, how you worked with live action and like. Yeah, that was definitely, I probably had more experience working with

CGI and actual characters than almost all the people at Marvel. When I was doing, I was very fortunate because when I was doing Scooby-Doo, two, the second one, Chuck Rovin, who produced those movies, took me and brought me to set, basically training me how to learn about visual effects and basically training me how to direct a big budget A-list film. And so I came and I started working on Scooby-Doo 2 as a producer and really learning about the technical parts of making a big budget film. The reason he did this was because he wanted me to direct Scooby-Doo 3, which never happened. But it was great training.

And I owe Chuck Rovin a lot of a big debt of gratitude for that. Did you have any problems? Were there any like trust issues at first? Because here's this guy who's directing this huge Marvel movie. Yeah, I had a, well, there was a day on set, like early. on when I was with the cast on Guardians one and people read the screenplay frankly this the screenplay even at that beginning stage was it was not my best screenplay and I don't think all of the actors totally got it what I was doing and there was a day on set it was me Zoe seldana Chris Pratt

Dave Batista we're shooting and we start to have some sort of there was a scene that was being designed and then we're having some sort of disconnect and argument about the way things something was supposed to be done. Great. Dave Batista, easygoing, was getting frustrated, but like, I could tell it, but I just kind of... Does it get you frazzled when you see other, when you see other people getting a little bit like, I don't know, like not trusting the situation or whatever, or if there's an argument? Do you start? Does it upset you?

It drives me crazy. Right. Because you think it's a last lack of trust or a lack of... I don't give a shit if it's a lack of trust. I just want to make the movie I want to make. I don't give a shit about it. Like, I really, I don't give a shit. I mean, I would rather somebody trust me or like me or whatever, but that's not what's important to me while making a movie. What's important to me while making a movie is making the movie as good as it can possibly be.

And the movie you want to make and the vision you have and this is what I want to do. No, it's not even that. It's making the movie as good as it can possibly be. If somebody else comes in with an idea that's better than the idea I have, I will gladly take it because I just want to make the best movie possible. Right. So Chris, kind of and I got some little argument, Chris and I were already friends by that time. We kind of disagreed. But then Zoe and I were having some big disagreement. Now, Zoe and I are both very loud people. So was there yelling? There was yelling. And it wasn't, it wasn't, Zoe and I both come from these families where, like, you can do that. And it's not, it's not anger, really.

That's what I say about me. If I yell, like, I'm loud. So we were yelling and people could hear it. And it was like, and then finally we worked out. And then we went and I got, went back and I did my thing. And it was like, oh, shit. Like, are, is going to be a constant struggle for me. Well, we went a couple days later to San Diego Comic-Con, where we showed the first little bit of guardians to the audience there. This is 12 days into shooting the first movie. And I cut together the stuff.

We showed the audience what the movie was going to be. And the cast, which was all those guys in Beniziel del Toro, they all saw it at the same time. And they flipped out. And Zoe comes up and she goes, I get it now. I understand what you're talking about. Yeah, from that point on, that was it for the most time. Yeah, and people don't, like, people look back now and they see that movie, but they don't understand exactly.

There's a very subtle difference about the tone of the movie and what it is and how it works. It's different. And it's its own thing, and she didn't quite see what that was, that line that it walks between complete naturalism and totally, you know, know broad escapism you know it's a it's a unique balance in that way in every frame of guardians is you hear those stories you hear that what was the movie uh rosemary's baby yeah actress uh mea fairo mea ferro and she was going to quit and frank sinatra wants me to leave with them and i don't i i don't think this is the right rule i don't know what's and then they showed her the director shows her a scene from the movie yeah look how fucking good this is yeah yeah yeah

She goes, okay. Sorry, Frank. Fuck off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I get it. So did you really think, like, this is, did you have any idea how big this was going to be? Yeah. You did. I didn't know for sure. There were days when I woke up panicked that I was making Pluto Nash, too. But I didn't, I didn't, for the most part, I felt like we were doing something that needed to be. well I have to say I'm I have a small part in it but I always thought when I saw the first one how proud I was it's I always knew what you can do like I was like this guy's passion he's very bright he's all these things but then when you see it on the big screen it was just even it's even like when the first time I saw smallville as a pilot I go what am I do I don't know what and then I saw somebody show me something I go oh my gosh this is big yeah this is like it just it blew me away how big it was but how original it was because you have these misfits all these characters and it just it did

have that feeling of when I saw Star Wars and I think a lot of people felt that way which is rare because there's so many of these kind of movies superhero movies and Marvel DC and there's so many

out there and I think that this one as great as a lot of these are this one you can differentiate from all the others just the originality of it and that's how I felt and I think that's how a lot of people feel

yeah I mean I think there's a few really original directors out there I think the thing for me is trying to bring, you know, get other people that are going to make big spectacle films that aren't just going to sell their souls. It's a hard thing, you know. I think there's a few of those people, you know, I think Matthew Vaughan is one and Matt Reeves is another. These are guys who are out there making big A-list films and, you know, kind of really doing something unique and not just giving into nonsense, you know. Yeah. Uh, what's something you can tell me about the next guardians that will get you in trouble

with Marvel, I never get in trouble with Marvel, but will help this podcast. I will never. Why would people listen to this podcast for something you're about to tell me that you might just get over to talk? I wish that there was something, Michael. You should have told me to think about that before you came and I could have thought about something I could give away, but I don't think there's anything that I should give away. Listen, you know, here's where I am. I've got almost all the songs chosen already.

Can you name one? no definitely definitely not is it probably not the hooters there's no hooters or mike in the mechanics i can promise you well fuck you gun uh there's no bruce hornsby what do you hey don't you could you know you could you know what you could throw down the range but not bruce so anyway i know i'm the opposite i love the range i love the range it's bruce and horns bruce fucked he ruins all those great range songs what was one song they sang i don't i don't know baby yeah i don't you're their you're big fan i'm not you get i like air supply and Chicago. Go ahead. Give me something. Give me something dirty. No, I got nothing. I, like, I've got the songs

all picked out. Okay. I've got the treatment written. Now, people think, oh, the treatment, that's just a story. Well, no, the treatment is the main part of the movie. The treatment is, my treatment is about 75 pages long. It's, you know, dialogue, it's every story beat. It's the whole thing. So I know what's happening. And, and it is, it's related to, you know, there are. You know, there are. things in Avengers, movies that happen that affect my movie, which I think is actually makes it kind of exciting. There's a interconnectivity between the two films.

I mean, there were, there were moments in the last one. There was obviously a big moment when, um, Yandu dies. Yeah. There's,

uh, been, you know, there was like dramatic scenes, big moments that people didn't expect. There's big, uh, fights.

There's, these, all these things that, I think that's what's amazing about one to two is like, holy shit, just when you thought you, you were going to see, you see something.

else. Are there those holy shit moments in three? Yeah, I think three is going to be different just like two is different from one. So I think, first of all, I think of all three of the movies as a trilogy. They all are one story. Like really. Like Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they all lead to one thing and something that I knew that it was leading to from the beginning. I think that there are, you know, kind of three prime characters. And that's, you know, what we're going to follow. Kevin Smith came up to me at a Comic Con on London. I love it. I love it. Rosenbaum. And I said, wow, Kevin Smith knew my last name. That's kind of cool.

And he says, you're coming back, right? I go, what do you mean? He goes, Martin X, Stacar. Those guys are coming back. They're at the fucking end credits. How could they now fucking come back? I go, dude, Stallone asked me at the premiere. Hey, yo, Michael, first time you ever called me, Michael.

Yeah, we're coming back, right? They said, come on, we got. I go, you're Stallone. Would you know before Rosenbaum would know this? I don't have any answers. And I don't, I always say, James is one of my best friends. don't give a fuck. I'm not talking to him about that stuff. If you want whatever. So what I will say this, is there a chance? Is there a decent chance that Sikar and Martin X and these old

guardians, the originals might come back? In three or in general? In general. Decent. I think it's a very big, big, big, big chance. Yeah. I mean, I didn't, you know, help to create those characters for the screen just to have them never be seen again. Those are great characters. I want to work with sly oh yeah wait wait wait wait i mean you know i'm like what he says you want to work with sly what what about your buddy i want to work with sly how about your buddy i want to work with michel yozum michel yo how about michel yozenbaum i want to work with krugar and myly cyrus draglin yes in jing rames yeah those guys are people i want to work with by the way on the set we did have fun and i remember one day specifically that we're there and stalone starts singing the

shitty 70 songs with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember looking at you and you go, fuck. He finally found someone who likes the same shitty music. That's right. And we're singing and it's a blast and Sly's singing like the first blood song. He's like, it's a long. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was just, you see. Well, I got to listen to this. I got to sit with Sly at his house. Right. And we watched Rambo together and he gave me live action commentary on the film. wait a minute throughout the whole film throughout the whole movie explain to me he was showing me something on his teeth what it how his tv works because he's got this massive like incredibly expensive tv that's in his uh smoking room and so we're watching this tv and he's showing me the the and i see

on the dvr i said oh rambos on there and he's like yeah yeah yeah you know really and then he played rambo and then we're watching a minute of rambo he's just kind of talking about the beginning of it And he's like, I'm boring you. I'll stop. I'm like, are you kidding me? Please don't stop. Keep doing this. What was it like, though?

Was it like, like, in this scene right here, I remember the day, like, they brought this fucking guy. Oh, everything. In the choreography, I almost broke my fucking back. A lot of it also was communicating about filmmaking. Like, you know, Sly is a guy. He's a bright, bright guy. And he loves making movies.

So he's, you know, we were talking a lot about just our process of what we do is, as filmmakers and how we go through it, about the things that bother. us and the things that don't bother us and all of that stuff. So that was like really, it was a really great experience but it's also great to have somebody like Sly who is sort of a mentor to me, who's been through all of it. And, you know,

and talks to me about that kind of stuff. Like, it's nice to have that. I, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's cool. I remember just being on set. How long is this podcast? It was just so interesting. How long, what is it? Almost done. How long have we been doing?

An hour and a half. No, you're kidding me. Oh, Jesus Christ. But that's how fun it was. I was, I was bored. You were having, I saw, I know when you're bored, and you start to zone away. And you, for the most part, you've been, it's been engaging in fun. I don't zone away when I'm on a podcast.

I just, I just power through. But I've got 16 text messages. From who? You got ones from Sly. Hey, James. Hey, let me talk to, I want to about Rainbow 3. I want to do the commentary for Rainbow 3. Come over here.

Crazy political. Hey, we're going to do Cliffhanger, hangar. I want to talk about Cliffanger. Come on here with. Hey, Jim. Jimmy, I'm coming over. All right, listen, hey. Okay.

Listen to me. I love you dearly. I love you, too. Listen, this has been a real treat. I love that I actually came to your house. I enjoyed every minute of this. I was a little nervous because when I talk to my friends, I always say this, but I get, you know, because, you know, it's, who knows? I'm very intimidating.

You're, you're just the opposite. You're very engaging and you're an amazing human being. I love how you, your love for animals and your friends and your craft. I do. I love the shit out of you. I got a pee. I love you. Thanks for being.

Thanks for allowing me to be inside of you. Okay. Can you say thank you for having me inside? No. You don't want to do that? People usually do that. Don't do that. Today,

I don't do that. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle.

A separate bucket for this addition that we're adding. $50,000, I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing everybody. We're out of here. Stacking Benjamin's follow and listen on your favorite platform.