Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Ep 14: Rob McElhenney

Episode Date: July 10, 2018

Rob McElhenney (It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Fargo, Lost) sits down and talks to me about his childhood, growing up in a broken family, how he adjusted as a kid to his mom coming out of the closet, and how he lost his virginity at sixteen. Then, we get into It’s Always Sunny - the first night Kaitlin made a pass at him and the biggest fight he’s had on set with Charlie and Glenn. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You are listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. This week's guest is creator, producer, actor of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. What a phenomenon this is. I mean, this show has just taken off. I remember this guy, Rob McElhenny, our guest today, showing me this pilot that they made and started pitching it. And I remember thinking, well, it was cheaply made. I, you know, it's funny. And then FX buys it and becomes the.

biggest show ever. Rob is a wonderful human being. He plays Mac. He's married to Sweet D. Reynolds. She's hot and she's fucking hilarious. I met Rob like almost 20, I think 20 years ago, probably to this day. And my old agent and said, uh, yeah, there's this young guy. He's like, he wasn't that young.

He was like in his 20s. But he needs a place to crash. And I go, yeah, I can crash on my couch. Everybody else does. So Rob McElheny slept on my couch. And now he's rich. He's only asked me to do. one episode of Sunny and Philadelphia.

We talk about his childhood, his mom leaving his dad in an early age, coming out of the closet and how that shaped him, talking about how him and Caitlin sometimes sneak off and have sex in their trailer when they're on set. Interesting. And of course, I had to bring up how he gained 50 pounds of weight for a season of always Sunny in Philadelphia, but briefly. Everybody has to ask him that. I'm really excited.

Let's get inside of Rob McElhaney. It's my point of view. You're listening to me. Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience.

And you've already made up a fluorescent sign for it? I thought it was my idea. I thought it'd be neat to have an dance sign. You know what I mean? It's your name in lights. Look, I made it. The Hollywood dream. I'm my own house.

It's my own sign. I fucking made it. Want a Red Bull? You want to blow your heart out? I'm good. You sure? I don't drink coffee anymore, so, but I started drinking those five-hour energy drinks. How are those?

Horrible. But I drink two of them every day. Why is that? Why do you do that? Because you wouldn't survive without them? Yeah. Well, it turns out I'm horrifically addicted to caffeine, which I suppose I knew before, but I didn't care about because I would just drink a cup of coffee in the morning.

And I stopped drinking coffee because it was starting. to make me sick so then instead of just stopping i transitioned into whatever it is that is in those five-hour energy drinks it's not as bad as a red bull though is it i don't want to put red bull down i drink it i like it i like to taste taste like a laser but uh i enjoy red bull yeah a red bull vodka yeah well you don't drink right i drink okay that was wrong i just have kids so i got to get up in the morning robert dale mackleaney untrue is that really not your name no what is it i don't have a middle name. But according to Wikipedia, it's a fair, it's a fair mistake. Isn't it? Isn't it Wikipedia supposed to give you knowledge? Well, I think that's a lesson that you've learned,

isn't it? It is. So you don't have a middle name. I don't have a middle name, but somebody, I've had actually had that taken down a few times. Dale. Dale. And you might have I call you Dale for the rest of the conversation? Which at this point, I just think is funny, so I leave it up there. We're with Robert McElhaney. Yeah, that's good. Right? My mom calls me Robert? Really? Yeah. Well, it just, yeah, Robert sounds like, you know, this is who you are.

This is who you were when you first came out of the womb. You were Robert, not Dale McElhaney, you were just Robert McElhaney. Correct. Right. The third. The third. From Philly. From Philly.

Thank you for allowing me to be inside of you today. It feels good so far. So far? It feels natural. Even though I messed up, Dale. Yeah. I like Dale. I think I should just start calling you Dale now.

I don't mind it either. I don't know why, whoever it was that that picked it, it doesn't seem arbitrary. It seems like they, it seems like they, he or she had a very specific reason as to why they picked Dale. Not gender specific. Anybody could have done this. Yeah. I'm guessing it was a dude.

Yeah. If I had to guess. Dude, this guy's an asshole. This Rob McLean. Let's give him Dale. He pissed me off. He wouldn't sign an autograph. Maybe I'll take it.

You know, it's funny is I read somewhere, or maybe it was Rob and he told me. You said that you don't think you're that funny, naturally funny? Right. Did you say that? Yes. Why would you say something like? that so far you've been naturally funny in the first minute of this podcast oh i i wouldn't say so i wouldn't say i don't think anybody's laughing so far you don't think dale got him just a bit

maybe a little smirk yeah no i don't i i don't think that i'm very funny i've no i was never the funny guy i all of my friends growing up that i was never like the clown i was never the guy that made people laugh no we met you know how we met new york yep what year 1996 96 maybe uh we had the same agent yeah we had the same agent yeah Ann Lauren. Correct. S-E-M-N-M was the agency. Shiffman, Ekman, Morrison, and Marks.

Yes. I remember she said to me one day, Michael, I had this new client. He's a sweet guy. Would you and Ballard allow him to sleep on your couch for a few nights? And I believe you did. I think I was only there a few nights, although you had another roommate friend, Chad.

Chad. And I wound up, he would go out of town. He was the workingest actor that I had ever met. Yeah, he did a lot of commercials. He worked quite a bit. And he was out of town a lot, and he would let me just crash into his apartment on 22nd Street. Right. But I live with three guys in a one bedroom.

That was tight. That was a tight squat. And I had the odd. Did you remember good times in those nights that you stayed there? Was it loud? I remember you guys played a lot of video games. Of course, yeah. You played a lot of, like, parlor games, if I recall correctly.

Yeah. There was a fair amount of nudity. There was some nudity. Only men. Lots of dudes. No girls naked. No. Do you remember the bunk bed I had? 81st and 3rd upstairs. We had a bunk bed in one room. So Matt, we only had a one bedroom. So Matt was on the bottom. Dave was on the top. I was on a futon mattress that curled up against the bunk bed. And every morning, Dave had to wake up and do telemarketing. So I'd say, Dave, before we went to bed, please don't jump on my feet. Don't land on my legs in the morning. You could crush your ankles. You could hurt me. Dave, who I saw, I guess I saw, well, now, I think it was a few years ago, but Dave looks like a bodybuilder. It's the last time I saw him. It's kind of big.

Yeah. Well, when I met you, you weren't a big guy. I'm still not a big guy. You are. Look at those muscles. You attach. You weren't like this innocent, sweet. That's what I knew of you.

I remember, you know, you weren't real talkative, but you were, you're cool, but I didn't know much about you. Right? Yeah. You, you, you, you, I don't know. Are you doing that on purpose? because I'm still that guy. Yeah, I don't know that I'm that talkative.

Well, maybe talking to me. I'm still nice. I think you're wonderful. You haven't changed in that regard. I'm just saying, let's go back. Okay. Let's go back. How far?

To Philly. Where in Philly? South Philadelphia. Is that a pleasant place to be? Yes, it was a pleasant place to grow up. Is it? It was tough? Sure.

Sure. I didn't, I'm teaching my kids out of ride a bike now. Right. And I'm realizing that, I didn't learn how to ride a bike. They're six, and my oldest son is six, and all of his friends can ride a bike. Like six, they've been riding a bike for a year, I guess. I think that's just California lifestyle.

I didn't learn how to ride a bike until I was 14, which is late. That's a little late. That's because I wasn't, we weren't allowed to go past two blocks in any direction because that's when the neighborhood got tough. Within two blocks. Yeah, two or three blocks. Well, that's not much space. It couldn't, you know, yeah, it was a very specific enclave.

At least that's what we were told. I mean, I had been beaten up a few times when I ventured past that. That would be the reason why I didn't learn how to ride a bike, because it would have gotten stolen. So did you come from a good family? Were you a broken family? Were you a dysfunctional family? I would say it was a good family and it was a broken family. And I've never met a family that wasn't dysfunctional in some way.

Right. But, yeah, my parents split up when I was young. How old? Eight. I wish my parents would have split up when I was eight. Yeah, see, I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot. Yeah.

It was just people who... Yeah. Were they together for... 27 years. And then split up. Yeah, but there was some really tough times and, you know, I mean, I just wish they would have probably figured that. How old were you when they split up?

I was, uh, I remember I just moved to L.A. So I was like 20, mid-20s, and I was, uh, just got my first job, which I thought that was, you know, this is it. I've made it. It was the Tom Arnold show, which means I didn't make it, but it's still a show. It was great. It was a lot of fun. Wait.

I thought Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane was, okay, that came afterwards. Yeah, Jack and George. That was a little later. Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane. Jane, Jane. I know the names of the show. You do. Yeah.

But I got cast for this Tom Arnold series called The Tom Show with Ed McMahon. Amazing. And so I was on there. And my mother called me hysterically, you know, crying. And I'm going to kill myself. And your father left. And he met some tramp in the Philippines and lost her mom. mind and but that's not exactly what happened there's three sides to every story you're getting one side of

it say my mom was a bit of a flirt and she went out with men and did things and something my dad thinks things happened and my sister a lot of people think things happen but she doesn't admit that but we all kind of know things might have happened and so he probably said at some point fuck it I'm out and you know but it was kind of coming to a coming to a head for a good 20 years and so they were on you you remember being an unhappy marriage I remember there were some nice moments, but I remember it became, it was very weird. It was very, you know, my mom was always trying to say, oh, look what I did. Isn't that great?

Isn't that great? And my dad was, like, really supportive. But after a while, it kind of becomes like, yeah, you're so great. You're the best. Passive aggressiveness kind of both, like, despised each other. It was just a weird thing going on. And my mom would interview baseball players and all the stuff. So it was weird.

What about you? Interview baseball players? She would interview major league baseball players and she wasn't really a sports, I get, well, she wrote articles, but she was interviewing majorly baseball players, and I guess my dad, we all thought maybe she might be sleeping with someone. We don't know. A baseball player? Maybe. Which one? I think there rumors that she slept with Howard Johnson, but I'm not sure this is true. Again, she's probably listening and saying, ah, it's bullshit. But, you know, we don't really know the answer. We know that she's a flirt. At least it was an all star. She may have not cheated at all. Yeah, he was an all star for a

struck out a lot, too. Yeah. But it pissed me off. Not with your mom. No, I hope he struck out with my mom. I hope that didn't happen. But I think my dad probably was emasculated a little bit. My mother was sort of, yeah. And I think that just it was a little dysfunction and we kind of felt it in the family. But, you know, they did the best. My dad married her when he was 18. She was 23 with two kids. They were young. They were idiots. They didn't really get to. So I kind of just, you got to just let's some real Kentucky bullshit. That's some Indiana bullshit. I'm sorry. College in Kentucky, though. That's right. So what about you? Let's talk about your dysfunction here. Yes. Where was dad? So I always remember my parents having a very good relationship. And

And they still continue to do so to this day. Really? Mm-hmm. But how old were when they divorced? I was eight. My sister was seven. My brother was five, I believe. It was somewhere in that zone.

It was a little bit of a blur. Do you remember some of it? Yeah. Certain things that happened where you were like, what is going on? Something's wrong. Dad's not home or mom's not home. Yeah, they handled it pretty well. I mean, my mother moved.

My mother was the one that moved out. And every day when we came home from school, she was there. but then she would leave when my dad came home and then on the weekends we'd do every other every other weekend but it was it was a different circumstance because my my mother left my father for another woman and then they've been together for 30 years since then how how hard was it for your dad do you remember that have you ever talked about it too yeah yeah we talk we talk about it quite a bit i mean in retrospect he says the most difficult thing was was having three children all of a sudden

with no mother living in the house. That was the most difficult things. And where was he working? He was working about 45 minutes away from our house in South Philly in the northeast part of the city. So who was watching you? You had babysitters?

Yeah. In Philly, very much different than Los Angeles, the neighborhoods are very tight-knit and we had family members all over the place. So we would have cousins, we would have aunts, our grandmother was right around the corner. We lived right next door in a row home, right next door to our great aunt and uncle, and they were retired, so they would watch us.

Or my mother would come home from work and she would watch us. And then, you know, after that, we became latchkey kids, which wasn't odd in the 80s. And then I took on a fair amount of responsibility at an early age taking care of my brother and sister. Do you resent that? No. You probably did then. I don't think so. I wouldn't say that I was responsible.

I mean, I was in charge, and so we would just watch TV. that was it that was it it was kind of a party and how old were you at this uh maybe starting at like 10 or 11 watching your 9 year old we would have brother yep and your 7 year old sister mostly i was watching tv right and they were watching along with me and then um you know we get our homework done and then watched television uh which turned into a profession which is great so that was like kind of a that was my education well what about the old boys catholic school when did you go there yeah i went to an all Boyce Catholic School my almost my entire life.

It was weird? What happens? What happens in that? You always think of some nuns smacking it with a ruler or some crazy shit that was on it. Yeah, I think it was like that in the 50s and the 60s. It was certainly,

there was certainly a fair amount of discipline, but I believe that those four years of my life were the most important years of my life, like 14 to 18. Those are real impressionable years for a young, troubled man. and they set me straight.

How did they do that? I just had a lot of behavioral issues. Anger issues? Sure. You'd lash out? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there was a fair amount of resentment that I had built up that didn't feel conscious. Right. You know, it was sort of locked in the unconscious, subconscious.

And I was never a good athlete. And I wanted to be, which was hard. That's hard. hard you know look you remember in um in uh amadeus i remember falco they sang rock me amadeus that's fair was it in the movie amadeus uh in amadeus the uh the character that f murray abraham played solieri he was an okay composer and he knew he would never be great he didn't he didn't really believe that that was the the ultimate curse of his life the ultimate curse of his life was that he was that he was that God, which he believed in, gave him the desire to be a great composer, but not the ability.

So why the fuck would you give me the desire and not the ability? Right. Either give me the ability or fuck off. Right. And I just didn't understand why I was given such a desire to be an athlete. What's sports? What sports? What sports?

You loved hockey. You loved the flyers. I love the flyers. Broad Street bullies were around then? Maybe it was a little before you. Broad Street bullies were before me. but I was of the era of Pellie Lindbergh, Ron, I know you're... Ron Hextall.

Ron Hechtall. I went to Ron Hextall's first game against the Edmontome Oilers. What a thrill. That was a thrill. And I became an instant. And that was a rival, the Flyers and Oilers. Big time. Yeah.

Big time. I became an instant Flyers fan. Are you a Flyers fan now? Huge? Yeah. You know, it's funny, I've been living out here now for 13 years. And I've become friends with a few of the kings. And so I got to go to a lot of those games to go,

and hang out with them and watch them. And it happened to be the year that they won the Stanley Cup for the first time. That was 2,000, what was that? A few years ago. And then I went back. Then next year, they had a good run. They didn't win. And then the following year, they won again against your Rangers.

Thank you. And I was there for both cups. I was there for games one and two. And we were up in the third bad call, interference. They didn't call it. And the Rangers lost. And I was heartbroken. That series was a lot closer than people.

It was incredibly close And look, in terms of like a live sporting event You can't beat Being at a double overtime game No, life hockey And a goal wins the entire thing The energy in there is just You can't describe it

People watch hockey and they're like hockey sucks They watch it on TV Go to a hockey game So fun You just feel that energy And the hits, it's so fast Yeah, so I played street hockey And I was terrible

So that didn't work out But then I tried to I tried to play football basketball, baseball, like all the classics. Then I kind of went to like the I went to some of the other secondary sports like wrestling.

Were you good at wrestling? Fucking terrible. How could you be terrible? You just grab onto someone and throw them down. I was always undersized. Yeah, me too. You know, super undersized. And I just had no athletic ability.

That sounds, that's heartbreaking actually. A kid that wants to be this. Yes, and looking back on it, who cares? But when you're 14 and 15, you know, those kinds of things are important. And it just drove me, it just drove me insane. So what were you doing? You say those four years from 14 or whatever for Catholic boys' school, whatever, changed your life. What changed it?

What was it? I think it's something specific to the Jesuit approach. You know, what's that? Their whole MO is teaching you how to question authority. always be asking questions, never take somebody's word for it, which is fascinating considering it's Catholicism. Right, and that mostly people just say, just listen to it and follow these rules. Exactly.

Or you go to hell. The way they approached it was you can ask questions, you can have an opinion, you can think I'm wrong, but you better come at me strong. You know, don't come at me with, I don't agree with this, and then I say why, and you don't have 10 reasons. You've got to come up with a reason. So, you know, that certainly instilled a tremendous amount of discipline. Do you remember moments when you stood up to your, uh, whoever, the nun or the, the pastor

or whatever, who was it that you, you stood up to and you questioned authority? Quite often. It was encouraged. Well, I give you an example. Do you remember one specifically where you just kind of lost your cool and you're like, this is why I don't believe this? Yeah. Yes.

And, and I got into, uh, I got into a physical altercation with, I mean, and that was all, also something that's in I guess it's just part of the Jesuit you're allowed to you're allowed to punch not with an adult but you know I look you put you put a 14 to 17 year old boys together in a in a in a and by the way it was in a really tough neighborhood in Philly so you weren't allowed to leave the campus so once you were there they would lock the doors and then everybody was in there and it would just you know it would just be it would be festering with testosterone and you weren't a big kid no so you got beat up a lot yeah like bloody lips bloody eyes black eyes i mean that's crazy to me that i mean

you're constantly in fights i mean you're you're you're watching your brother and sister at the house you're a young kid your mom has left you don't understand this you're a little confused you're watching your tv you're going in a catholic school you're and you're getting in a fist fights all a time it didn't seem like there was a real future for you that's what i'm gathering well it it never felt like that though i mean really sort of in retrospective if you look at it, it never felt that way. Because I had, I guess I had an incredible support system. I mean, the way that the school approached their education was you can be anything.

You can do anything, but it's going to be really fucking hard. And I feel like if, I feel like you hear a lot of people talk about you can be anything, you can be everything, and they forget the second part. And that's bullshit. And then you can, you hear a lot of people talking about the second part, which is, hey, life's really hard without the first part. That's also bullshit. So you're saying I should probably become a Jesuit.

Well, I think there's still time for you. I mean, it sounds like that's a badass religion. A lot of times we talk about how religion doesn't work. You know, people say, you know, religion is that's why there's wars. That's why there are all this shit. It's all about religion. But sometimes you hear the stories where it's like, hey, this actually taught me a lot of lessons. And I have friends in Indiana who are Catholics and they're just really good families

and they have good morals and they're good people. And I think that's what most of it is is just being a good person. Sure. Yeah. I mean, look, the main takeaway that they wanted you to walk out of that school with was to become a man for others. That was their, that's the tagline, St. Joe's Prep, man, be a man for others. That's really what it was.

That's what it is. Be a man for others. Do you think you have become a man for others? I'm working on it. I think it's a lifelong pursuit. Some days. Some days not. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money.

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So you're not a good student. No, I was a good student. You were? Yeah. Like really good grades? Pretty good, yeah. Because you were interested. I guess did you have good teachers?

Yeah, well, one of the things that they really encouraged was curiosity. Again, that was all about the questioning of authority, never taking somebody's word at face value, you know, do the work and read about it, try to understand. And I always like that. And I had interest in lots of different things. Why did I go to this school? It could have helped. Oh, my God.

It could have helped. I think I would have matured a lot faster. Yeah, and I did and still continue to do have major problems with the Catholic Church. I'm not Catholic. I don't consider myself Catholic. I'm not raising my kids Catholic. However, there is a sister school out here. or a brother school, I should say, out here that's Jesuit,

that I would consider strongly for my boys because it had such a tremendous impact on me. And in fact, not just me, I'm still my closest friends in the world of the guys I went to high school with. I have a cadre of guys probably 15 deep. 15 guys that you knew when you were 14, 17 or 18, that you still talk to.

Still my closest friends. Have they changed? Are they all good men? Did they listen to the whole? Yeah, everybody in their own way. And what was the name of this school? St. Joe's Prep. St. Joseph Prep, Preparatory School for Boys.

And it's still working? Founded in 1851. Do you ever go back? All the time. How often? In fact, one of my friends who, real tough background, real tough guy. Did you get a fight with him? No, never.

He was always one of my best friends. He is now, was the dean of students, which is like the disciplinarian. Wow. Which is wild. And now he's the athletic director. Do they still paddle? Paddle? Yeah.

Oh, you mean like a whoopin? Yeah, I got whooped a little bit in Indiana, some schools in the younger days. No. Yeah, I got pet. That's, that's no longer tolerated. Yeah, across the country, you can't do that. Yeah, you know, I mean, on account of all the state and federal laws. Yeah.

It's illegal. Yeah, child abuse. It's child abuse. Yeah, and also, I never really quite understood that. And I guess it's, I suppose it stands to reason that how you hit somebody to teach them not to hit somebody is still beyond my, my, my, my, my ability to reason it's very embarrassing i was pretty mortified as a kid getting so that's the other thing that's the other thing it's humiliating humiliating so how how does that teach a child that an adult can at any moment humiliate you in front of it broke me of course i remember fifth grade it broke me i remember

walking to the back i said he said get the teacher said get back in the classroom i go i can i please go to the bathroom and he said yeah and i went in there and i just cried sure cried in a stall and then class let out like a minute later and all these people were coming in and out and I locked myself in the stall and I just remember crying yeah and all these ignorant motherfuckers will say yeah but you'll never do that thing again okay well maybe you won't but no I did it well sure and then of course you keep that's why I hate authority that's why I hate people telling me what to do even if you were to not do it and people would look at that and say okay well that's evidence of it of it working but the question is why are you not doing it are you doing it

because you recognize that all of a sudden that that's that's the right or and or wrong thing to do or are you doing it because you don't want to be humiliated in front of the class? And there's a difference. There's a cognitive difference as you move on in your life. Did you know what a lesbian was when you were eight years old? Not quite, but I figured it out real fast. How fast? By like 10 or 11, I recognized that I was half my time was split.

And the other half of my time was with the gay community. and when I say gay community I mean it was just everybody that we were with obviously still men and women but the men's partners were men and the women's partners were women and so it's pretty obvious

rather quick did anyone tell you no because I didn't figure it out my mom was always around gay people I was just like oh that guy's kind of fun nobody ever nobody ever to this day no one's ever sat your mother's never said Rob

I'd like you to know something after I'm My mother doesn't even consider herself gay. Really? No, she's in love with Mary, which I've always thought was fascinating. That is. And I'm like, yeah. Hell yeah.

You don't have to. But to an 8-year-old boy, it's just like, if somebody just... Hey, what's going on here? Yeah, it's like, hey, mom's, you know, kissing that woman. Yep. Did you see her kiss the woman? Sure, they were affectionate. But they weren't, I mean, it was never, like, explicit or anything like that.

But they were affectionate. And look at it. This was, like, what, the 80s? This is the 80s in South Philly. So this is not accepted, really. No, not really. It's tough times for... Not really.

But again, to me, you know, how you deal with things in your adolescence and then preteen and then teenage years to me always seems to be so influenced by how your friends are reacting, right? Your peers. And my friends never gave a shit, so I never gave a shit. Dude, I grew up in the wrong town. I mean, I look, I love going back. I love... But it was just, it was Indiana. It was Southern Indiana.

I mean, there's a lot of good people there. but definitely when I was going to grade school and I just remember the word fag being used so loosely and you're gay Hey Rosenbaum, Rosie Palm and people would use the word so loosely that you just thought it was like Then I was thinking as a young kid, am I gay? Yeah, why am I gay? Why are they saying I'm gay?

And it was just used thrown all over the place And, you know, so it was Yeah, that wasn't as acceptable. That was still there. I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm painting Philadelphia as this this gay accepting lovable little... No, it was not that. There was still a fair amount of homophobia

as there is now. It was just, as it was directed at me or about my family, that was never concerned. So none of your schoolmates, your peer has ever said, did anybody ever say anything where you had,

you jumped into a fight because of it? No. Really? Never once. I mean, I knew, there was certainly some kids who were fascinated by it or interested in it or they would ask me questions. Or they'd come over to my house and see,

but never, it was never, and maybe behind my back or something like that, but at the end of the day, like nobody really gave a shit. You went to college. No. Sort of. Does it say it Wikipedia?

No, but I know this story. You did go to Fordham. You like sort of, you weren't really enrolled. Correct. But you... I moved to New York. Right.

And I had a lot of friends that lived at Fordham University. up in the Bronx, and they had an extra bed. But you couldn't afford to go there. No, no, I didn't go. I didn't enroll in. But you just, you took classes? Yeah, I took classes.

I spent some time there, again, just out of interest and curiosity. I had no for what? Different classes? What were you interested in? Why were you there? Why did you head over to New York? Well, I moved to New York. I was living in Philly after school, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

I had started acting because I was such a terrible athlete, And so we had all guys schools all over Philly and then all girls Catholic schools. And the girls' schools needed guys for their plays. So our school had actually pretty extensive drama program, but I never did any of the plays at our school. But I heard that Notre Dame Academy needed boys for their plays. So I went and audition for that. And then I got, I started to get.

Why did you audition? Because I wanted to meet girls. That was it. You just wanted to meet girls. You didn't care about being the next so-and-so. No. You just said, oh, this is cool. It's all girls.

Because I was a terrible athlete. I had no way in. I knew from past experience, whether it was giving speeches or performing something in class or whatever it was, that I had some ability to read words aloud and make them mine. And so I... You're a little articulate for your age. You felt a little confident when you were speaking. I was just confident.

Okay. I was just confident. I wasn't afraid to get in front of the class and speak to people. So couple that with inability at any athletic endeavor that I tried and the fact that I wanted to meet girls, and it was a no-brainer. So then I started doing that and loved it, loved it. Did you meet any girl there at their old girls school? Did you have sex?

Sure. Yeah. How old were you in you had sex? First time? Yeah. I was 16 and a half. But the first time, the first time was in, you know, I don't remember her name because it was at the Princeton Model Congress, which is even way geekier than a play, than a school play. You don't want to model what the Model Congresses are? No.

They put together these groups of kids from all over the country. And it's called a Model Congress, Princeton Model Congress, Harvard Model Congress. And it's basically just a group of kids that will travel to D.C. you pretend that you're a member of Congress right right or rep and then they put you into committees and then each person gets to write a bill and then you go through the entire process

of trying to get your bill passed right fucking so nerdy when you're 16 but I'm like I don't know let's go do it yeah so I went and did it and I wrote my bill and in my committee was this lovely lady from lovely young lass did she believe in your bill did she help get it passed? I believe she passed my bill

What was the bill? What was the bill, Rob? Do you remember? I do remember what it was. What was? I was a smoker at the time. Really? Yeah.

Which also maybe wouldn't have helped out on the gridiron. Maybe that was why I was not such a good athlete. Or maybe I turned to smoking because I was not such a good athlete. I'll be a badass. Sure. I noticed that a lot of companies were now forcing their employees to, to go out on the street to smoke. So that seems like fairly inefficient.

It's great for people who don't smoke. But if you're working in a high-rise complex, like a skyscraper, just the amount of time that it takes you to get on the elevator, go down, smoke the cigarette, go back up. So my bill was something about allocating a certain amount of funds

to create a smoker's lounge in buildings of a certain size, which, by the way, is only private enterprise, would have nothing to do with the government. In fact, it's like an incredible infringement upon the populace. However, I thought it would be a good idea, that you'd have to allocate a certain amount of tax to pay or money, which would ultimately create a more efficient environment,

and you would wind up saving hundreds of millions of dollars. And I did a bunch of research to back that out. She really went into this. Yeah. And was she impressed by this? No, no, no. Was she also a smoker? She was a smoker.

She was from the South. She was from southern, well, she was from Maryland, which to me was the south. Anything south of Philly. Philly was pretty much the south. I remember she was from Cumberland, Maryland. And she was, you know her name. I really don't remember her name. It was the first and last time that I had ever, and but this is before cell phones.

And what am I going to do, give her my parents number in Philly? So we made sweet. Did she call you, Dale? Maybe she's the one. that came up with the middle. Yeah, he never called me again. Dale. Man, that was the best. That was the greatest. It was the greatest. The sex? Well, just the fact that I lost my virginity at the Princeton Model Congress. Do you remember how happy you were after it happens? But, you know, relieved, more than anything else.

You just got it out of your system. Yeah, because also, I don't know that. Of course. How long? Oh, I couldn't say for sure. Of course. Good, good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was just, I was more excited about. about being able to go back to Philly and tell all my friends than I was. I did it. I did it. I finally.

Yeah, but you can't throw a ball. Exactly. Oh, they wouldn't say that. They were nice guys. They were supportive. You know, everybody came to the plays. So you started liking it? You had to start liking this.

I started enjoying the plays. But then when I graduated high school and I was the only kid in my class that didn't go, it was a prep school. So everybody was expected to go to college. And I was expecting to go to college. I just didn't, I wanted to take a year off. So I spent that first six months traveling around and visiting my friends at different schools all over the country, not this far west, but really up and down the northeast corridor and then down south a couple of places.

Just figuring out what you wanted to do? Yeah, figuring out where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. Like I wanted to take a year off and travel, although I didn't really travel outside of the contiguous United States. Right. And everywhere I went, I noticed that the kids were going into massive. amounts of debt and weren't taking school very serious. They didn't care about it. And all they were doing was partying, which was fine and fun, but I could do that and was doing that. And it just didn't seem like a worthwhile goal over the next four years to get a bachelor in communications or something. So you said, I'm not doing this. Well, I said, let me take a little bit more time off and see.

And then I, when I went to New York, I visited some friends at Columbia and some friends at Fordham and thought this is the greatest, this is the first time. So New York is only 90 minutes away from Philly, but I'd never been to New York City before. And if anybody who's ever been to New York knows that first time you go to New York City, it's overwhelming. And I thought, I'm moving here. And I went back to Philly, packed my bag.

I think I had like 150 bucks and moved. And where did you stay before my couch? I stayed in the Bronx. I stay with friends in their dorm room. And I got a meal plan. I was able to just take a kid's information. to the registrar and get a student ID. So I got a student ID and I bought somebody's food plan from them.

And so I ate for essentially for free. I mean, if you remember, the meal plans in college are like $1,100 and you eat for an entire semester. Right. So I was able to scrape together, working in a bar, I scraped together a grand in a few weeks, and then I ate for six months. But then you did a play there. Or you got cast in a play. Correct.

And what happened? I got cast in a play. and the guy who I was auditioning with found out that I was a non-matriculating student. I was not a student. And they busted me. And they kicked you out of the play? Were you heartbroken?

Well, yeah, I wasn't heartbroken. I mean, I think it was fair. It was for students. You're not a student. I'm not a student. I'm not a student. And I just wanted to be in the play. I thought it was a cool play.

And so they booted me. Luckily, they didn't report me to, you know, to security or any of the authority. So the meal plan ended it to? No. You kept doing that? You kept eating? Yeah, I stayed on campus.

I didn't leave. Oh, good. Everybody assumed I was a student. And then after that year, I finally got my big boy pants and moved down to Brooklyn. But it was around that time that I met you guys. But how did someone find you, Ann Lauren or whatever, that you're going to be an actor? How did that happen? How did you get to Ann?

I went to Ann through, it was one of those, like, cattle call agent. She's actually the same one that Chad Christ went through. Right. Yeah. So I met Anne and she was an agent and she said, hey, I think you could work. And I think the real reason she thought I could work was because I was 19 and I looked like I was 15. Yeah, you looked really young. So I worked, so I immediately started working.

Like as soon as I, as soon as she signed me, I started working doing commercials because they needed kids. Well, you got a commercial here for an anti-smoking commercial. Yeah. Now, were you still smoking when you got it? I was. You are. Rob, can we cue that? Hey, you.

Me? Yeah. Did you ever try cigarettes? I was 14. Any reason? I guess I was trying to be cool or something. Really? Well, yeah.

So you tried it because other people were doing it? Yeah, I guess. And why don't you do it anymore? A lot of reasons. Just didn't like it, you know? I don't need smoke to, like, fit in. Hold up. We finished?

So angry. You know how I know you're an actor from listening to that? You know the moment, the nuance that I said, that's an actor. It's when you're talking and then you just randomly go, hold on a second. Feeling it. How much you get paid for that anti-smoking commercial? That was a national network spot. That was not a PSA, which was great because PSA is you don't get paid or you get paid

whatever the nominal thing is. So it was a national network commercial because it was right around the time that Philip Morris had lost some multibillion million dollar lawsuit and one of the things, one of the stipulations of, the lawsuit they had to do these commercials. Yes, that they had to do these commercials and they were not public service announcements. They were paid. So you got paid bucks for them. Yes. And was this one of your first jobs? Yes. My very first job was, uh, was a movie called The Devil's Own. Yes, Brad Pitt, Harrison Ford. Yeah. That was my first job. And I thought, well, it's so I, I got this gig and how many lines did have. I had like three scenes. Three scenes. With Brad Pitt? One with Brad Pitt, one with Harrison Ford.

Come on. One with Ruben Blades. Do you know Ruben Blades? Do you know Ruben Blades? I didn't know who he was at the time either, but now I do. He's just, he's incredibly famous all over Latin America. He's a Latin America singer. So I thought, wow, man, like I just moved to New York and now I'm sitting with Brad Pitt and I'm talking to him and I have a scene. Are you starstruck? Yeah, how's and did you know it? Did he know it? I played it cool with Brad. You did? But Harrison Ford, that's tough, man.

That's, that's, that's on solo. That's Indiana Jones. That's, that's on solo. I mean, how do you not flip the hell out? Yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was an amazing experience. And actually, Alan Pakula was the director. And Gordon Willis was the cinematographer. I mean, it's like, how old are you?

19. 19 years old. Yeah. 19. I mean, it seems like it was just a year ago, two, a couple years ago that you just, you bang that, uh, young lady up at, the, right? Yeah, it was.

And look at what's happening. It was a few years. You get a movie, you get a smoking commercial, you're smoking. Just like that. It just really happened. Yeah, I mean, it was smooth sailing from the time that I met that lovely lass in from Cumberland. Did you think I made it now?

I'm working with Brad Pay at Harrison Ford. I really thought, well, now I'm going to join the union and I'm going to get paid and now I can quit my job at the ball. How much did you make for that movie? A couple grand. A couple grand. That's a lot of money back then. I remember making a couple grand and thinking I'm rich for the rest of my life.

Oh, yeah. I'm wrong. Now I had to pay, well, I had to pay the union to join. So right there, that's a couple thousand. You're gone. No more money. You're gone. But now I'm like, well, now I'm in the union. So now I'm going to, and then I just did this movie. I'm going to work nonstop.

And then I didn't work. And then I got cut out of the movie. How did you find out? Did you just, did they tell you? I found out by going to the movie. Well, I wasn't invited to like any of the events, which is not, which is not uncommon for somebody. Yeah, I wasn't invited to the midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. I had like an eight minute scene.

That was a big. Well, that was like a big scene in the movie. And I spent like a thousand dollars on a suit. And I went, you know, I went there. And anyway. You were, but, yeah, I just wasn't invited. But you were a great inspiration to me, I mean, to all of us, because you were, you worked so much, so fast. I remember seeing your billboard.

The reason I remember Zoe Duncan, Jack, and Jane was because I remember seeing the billboard all over the subways in New York City. It was crazy. All over. I thought it was going to, you know, it's funny. Stop thinking things are going to be a hit after so many things that you thought were going to be a hit aren't. Like Zoe's going to be the next young Seinfeld, and then one year it's over. or this is going to be the biggest thing. And then after a while, you grow up pretty fast.

You learn that when someone says, you're going to be a star or this is going to be big, you just go, thank you. So I actually learned that very valuable lesson around this time because I had done that movie. And then I had done a couple other weird commercials. And then I was in for an audition at this recording agency. And as I was walking out, this woman comes out,

of a recording booth and she says hey can you come here for a second are you an actor i said yes she said we're trying we need like a young male voice to say this line for this commercial will you come in and do it i said sure just randomly just she they just needed it like quick so i said yeah sure i walk in and she said the line was one 800 collect save a buck or two if you remember before cell phones there was this thing called one 800 collect and that was i remember that okay so i go in i say 1,800 collect, save a buck or two. I said it four times. She says, thank you.

Here's sign this. You can leave. I get a call like two weeks later. The producer calls my agent and says, this is going to be a Super Bowl commercial. And there's a bonus for that for some reason. I say, okay, great. The commercial then proceeds to air for a full two years after that.

Come on. And I made... Never happens to me. I made more money on that than... Anything that I had done. How much money? You get at this point, how much, $150,000? Yeah, it was like over a two-year period.

It was like $93,000. Unbelievable. Which when you're in your early 20s and, of course, after taxes and you pay your agent. It's still a tremendous amount of money. And that's a very valuable lesson, which is, you know, the things that you think are going to make you a star or the things that are going to pan out, the things that are going to turn. So much of it is just luck and putting yourself in the right position to be in the right place at the right time. Yeah. What do they say luck is a commodity of preparation and opportunity?

Preparation, perspiration, I believe. Is that what it is? I don't know. So you're cut from the Brad Pitt movie, your heartbroken. Did you see it with anybody? Did you take anybody to see this movie? No, because I caught wind. I played Julia Stile.

Do you know Julia Stiles? Sure. I don't know her personally. In the movie, I played her boyfriend. So I ran into her and she had seen the movie and she told me before the movie came. And when she walked away, did your heart sink? Oh, I was devastated. Devastated. It happened again, too. It happened again.

Wonder Boys. Yeah. And this time, how many scenes did you have in this movie? Same deal, like four scenes. And I was playing somebody's boyfriend. Whenever you're playing somebody's boyfriend, you're expendable. You're expendable. And you thought before, did you already learn your lesson or you're saying it can't have my lesson? can't happen again. It can't happen. I learned my lesson, but I was a little bit more, I wouldn't say that I was integral to the story, but I was less expendable than I was in the first one. But they figured out how to, I figured out a way to get it. Not one moment in the movie. You don't see yourself?

I'm essentially just a glorified extra in it, which is odd. So every once in a while, they'd cut to me sitting next to Katie Holmes, and there's just this dude, and we're in a two shot. And it seems odd that we'd be in the two shot. Now, did you bring people to that movie? No, because Curtis Hanson Oh, Curtis Hanson. Rest in peace, may he rest in peace. Traffic? No, no, the big one.

It's the usual suspects. No, LA Confidential. I got it. I got it. So Curtis wrote me a letter. A handwritten letter. Do you still have it? Fuck, no.

Yeah, you cut me, motherfucker. Yeah, it wasn't like, hey, congratulations. It was just to let you know, this is what happened. It had nothing to do with your performance. It was all about pacing and yada, yada, yada. which I thought was really kind and he did not have to do. Was your ego a little fucked?

This isn't like you're getting cut from like some independent movie. You're getting cut from a big movie. Yeah. With big actors. Yeah. No. I think I would have probably killed myself. I was.

I don't think I have enough. You're stronger than I am. I was devastated. No, I was devastated. But I was more, I was more just in that fight or flight. I had a fight or flight response for like a good four years. I was living so hand to mouth. I think you were mature more.

more mature than a lot of people at that age, too, because you were, it's, you don't think about it, but the Catholic school, you know, sort of raising your brothers and sister. I think there was something, I don't know, innate, something that you just didn't even realize that you were, you were more mature, you were ahead of your time, I think, no? Maybe. Yeah, maybe. It could be. I also just felt like I was just not going to fail.

I just wasn't going to fail. No matter what. No matter what. So even the little speed bumps. And that was also just the ignorance of youth Like I was in my early 20s I feel like I'm a lot more fragile now than I was then I can be, yeah, it's weird

I think I've grown where I'm just sort of trying to Hey, I'm scared of this and I'm scared of failure But my therapist tells me the only way You're really going to be successful is by failing It will make you stronger, you need to fail You need to, but I throw up before I'm doing stand-of comedy It's like I don't give a shit, that's good You gotta just keep doing it

So I keep pushing myself saying, you know, I'm going to do do things. And it's scary, but I feel like I need to be more vulnerable, need to just let it go. And who cares if people think I suck? I talk about that all the time in our writer's room, which is like what we're most successful when we're, when we find things that we assume aren't going to work. And sometimes they don't. And you also, when you're 21 years old, I don't even know how this happens. You optioned a script for Paul Schrader. Yeah. Taxi drive a raging bull. How does that happen? When did you start writing were you always writing that's when i started writing no i wasn't always writing and i was

complaining that i wasn't working and my agent at the time said you know then you should write something so i did i learned i bought you know sidfield screenwriting books and uh i spent so much time watching television shows and watching movies that i just i feel like i have an internal understanding of of structure structure that i think i just had to tap into i think structure is it's an amazing thing because i i write scripts and i've sold things and i always feel like i'm really look at with dialogue and I can come up with scenes and I have ideas and come up with a great ending. But structures, it is an extremely difficult thing to kind of grasp. Yeah, it's just math.

Yeah. It's like, how do we get to the end? How do we, what, and how do we keep, you know, what's the turning point? How do we keep people interested? How do we keep people invested in the story? It's a gift. It really is. Well, it's, I mean, the people who are the best at it recognize that it's a mathematical

equation that they have to figure out. And yet, how do you present? that formula in a new and interesting way. And in a way that tricks the audience into believing that they're seeing something completely unique, even though they're not. How does someone learn that that young? Oh, I didn't. I'm not one of those people. You're not, but you sold the script. Yeah. And this didn't get made. No, that did not get made. And after a year of development with Paul, he moved on to something else. The production company went on. And you were meeting with him. Oh, yeah, I was working with him. And you were 21.

Yeah, it was 20, yeah, 21. That's just fascinating me how a 21-year-old, who doesn't have a lot of experience in writing, is just hanging out with Paul Schrader, talking about a script developing a script. I wrote the script. It was not funny at all. It was not a comedy.

It was a thriller. It got optioned by this company called Propaganda Films, and then they got it to Paul, and Paul was interested in it, but then every time we sat down, he would give me these extensive notes, and then I would go, and it would be a little bit, he would just, he's an odd guy,

and he would want to take it to very, different and dark places and i was okay with that even though it wasn't necessarily my instinct because i got to work with him and i i thought well if this is what it's going to take to get the movie made then that's then that's what i'll do did you keep in touch after they ever call and say hey how you doing no i was going i remember when i first walked into the office he had this like seedy office in it's exactly what you with like if you're picturing paul actually sort of him yeah so it's this sort of Seedy office in Times Square.

Not neat either, is it? Yeah, and it was just, I walked in. I'm smelling the urine right now. Yeah, that's the kind of, and like, I don't even think he, he doesn't smoke, but it smelled like cigarette smoke. Little stains in the floors? Stains in the couch.

Why can I see this? And I walked in, and there was this young, his, like assistant or receptionist, and it's a really small office. And I said, hey, I'm here for Paul. And she goes, he's a fucking asshole. And I was like, oh, cool. All right.

It was great. Great. Thanks. Can you just tell Rob's here? Yeah. Yeah. And it was, well, maybe I, okay. Wow.

And I never saw her again. That was it. That was it for her. And then I worked with him for a year. And then at the end of it, we had nothing. So why did you come out to L.A.? Not long after that. Not long after that.

What brought you? What brought you out here? I got sick of living in squalor, and, you know, living in New York is great when you're broke when you first get there because it's romantic and you're young and it's fun. And then I was there from 19, it seems like forever, but I think I was there when I was 18 to 19, maybe 19 to 23. And it doesn't help when cut out of this, cut out of this, script and work, let's try something different. Yes. And I was coming out of a long-term relationship. And that was like the final straw.

So I said, I just got to do something new. Do I know about that relationship? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I remember. You remember her? Because I think she came out to L.A.

She did. And you guys were still trying to think, and things just. We were always off and on. So we broke up for the, not the final time, but another time. And I just thought, I've had enough and I got to get out of the city. And so I moved, I moved west with a duffel bag. And what was the, how was L.A.? I loved it.

What did you love about it? Just there was more laid back. It was just different. The weather, it was significantly cheaper than New York. And look at it. I love living here. I would love to go back to New York for a few years. My wife doesn't want to.

Right. It's a wonderful and strange place. How many years later was sunny in Philadelphia? That would have been two years later. Two years later. I recall you bringing the tape over to my house on Hill Slope Street Where we used to hang out

And you brought this tape over And you showed Ballard and I This tape I remember specifically The quality was kind of shitty Terrible yeah And I remember watching And you're like hey

We're gonna try and sell this And I remember thinking in my head Yeah it's all right I remember just being honest I remember going It's all right And I thought that we're gonna try And sell this

It was like man I don't you know Studio's gonna buy this It was shot for nothing It was like I don't know Who does that? Who does? Who shoots something

and then gives it to a studio or pitches it, and they buy it. Yeah, well, luckily the networks didn't have that response. That's exactly what I'm saying. They saw something you didn't. Well, that's what I'm trying to say. I just,

I was like, I remember singing, like I like these characters. I just, I don't know, what is this. I don't know exactly what it was. I didn't like it.

I just was like, how are they going to fucking sell this? Yeah. They're going to hand this thing. Usually you think of things like, they paid a lot of money for it. It looks really fancy. And you guys,

there was a joke. somewhere where, you know, you said, we paid $200 for this. And one of you guys said, no, actually, it was nothing. I remember buying the cassette tapes because we shot on tape. Right. Cassette tape, the mini tape at the CVS on Fairfax and Sunset. That was it. How long did it take to shoot, Sunny, the pilot?

Well, we shot the original in like a few days, but then that was a piece of shoot. I remember it was outside. Yeah. It was like at a barbecue or a party, right? That's right. That's right. I remember. If I remember it, it couldn't have been that bad. It was somehow memorable. Yeah, we shot three different versions of it. All of my experience up until this point led us to this endeavor. Because I had failed so many times when I was listening to what other people were telling me to do, i.e. Paul or agents or whoever, telling me, well, you should do this. Maybe if you write it this way or you shouldn't shoot it or you should. But this is all in your watch.

Yeah, I just said, fuck it. I'm not doing my own shit. I'm just doing, I wrote a script that I thought was funny. That was like a short film. And I thought, well, this would be a good opportunity to put the blinders on and just go make something that nobody else could. And how many studios bit? We had offers from four or five. We had offers from every network except for Fox.

And why did you choose FX? And Nick Rad, right? Yeah. John Landgraf, Nick Rad, Eric Schro. They're all still there. Because I had so much frustration and failure up into that point, we had nothing to lose. So I knew that I didn't want to have somebody else come in above us, a producer, a director, or something like that, who would take the show over. So we came in, we pitched it around.

And then when we had offers, we said, great, now we have some other, we have some demands. Right. Which again, is just the control. We wanted control. And again, that's just the ignorance of. the ignorance of youth, but also arrogance of youth, I should say, but also we didn't have families.

You know, we were young and single and we could take those kinds of risks. So we just said, we're not going to work with anybody unless I'm the showrunner. These guys are executive producers. This is the cast. We're going to write all of them. And if you like it, then this is what it is.

I'm going to direct. I directed the pilot. That's it. And you probably got offers for more money, but not as much control? Or was FX the best? Well, once we gave the sort of list of demands, those offers went away very quickly. Right.

Which is understandable. But FX, John Landgraf, said, okay. If it was any different, if you didn't have control, would it have been as successful? I don't know. It would have been different. It would have been different.

It wouldn't have been your own vision. It would have been arguing and fighting and trying to get your vision across and trying to. And by the way, it still continues to this day to be a tremendous amount of arguing and fighting. fighting over what it is. I don't think people realize, and by the way, when I started watching it, and I was actually in the first season, I did gun control, and people still come up to me for that one

episode that I did years and years and years ago, it's my favorite show on TV, and it was like, I had no idea. I remember, again, watching this, thinking, this is all right, but no one's going to, I don't am I going to buy this. Like I told you, and it becomes, like, the biggest show on TV. I think the reason it's successful is because it's not a big, broad, it's not the biggest show on television, but it is a lot of people's favorite show on television, which was always my goal. I'm never going to be able to make everybody happy, but I like the idea of the people

who love it, love it. And they're savage about how much they love it. It's just unbelievable. And I don't think a lot of people understand. I got a real understanding of how hard you worked when I did the show in the first season. When I walked on set, and I got to remember the juxtaposition of going from like Smallville or a big movie to this set downtown L.A. in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah. Herald examiner.

And no one's got a trailer. Yeah. You guys are working on top of each other. There's no money. These episodes cost no money. And it's just heart and soul and sweat. And I really was like, fuck, this is awesome.

I couldn't believe how hard you were working for the turnover and how you had to write scripts and you're acting and you're directing and you're doing this and you're, trying to appease all these people at fx and trying to and also make a show that's worth watching which obviously became way more than that but that how hard how much easier has it honestly become with the success has it become harder in a way or has it become easier with the more money and because honestly if the show has lasted one season you're not making any money right the show

lasted two seasons you're not making any money if the show lasted you needed at least six seasons right i mean for us to actually make like enough money to buy a house right We did not get paid very much. I mean, that was the thing. They gave us a tremendous amount of ownership, which is a really smart way for FX to do their business. Because they give the talent ownership in the show, and they don't pay them massive fees.

So you don't get a lot of money, but in great success, you own the show. That is an incredible incentive, if I needed to be incentivized, which I didn't, but it's still an incredible incentive, to know that your partner's on this in a very real way. it's not just like your standard employer-employee relationship was there any moments where you're like fuck you guys you got to give us more money than this all the time you're paying me 10,000 dollars an

episode yeah what the fuck you know yeah all the time i mean i think that the success is directly related to the amount of conflict that we um continue to encourage so we can now recognize the difference between fighting a creative battle and an ego battle. And that was the trick in the beginning, was figuring that out, because we still fight a lot. So in terms of it getting easier, the creative process in some ways is harder insofar as we've done so many episodes

that we don't want to retread the same material. But it's gotten easier insofar as the fights are more efficient. We still have the same amount of fights. Are there fuck fights? Like, fuck you? Never. are there ever like you guys are fucking crazy if you think that's going to happen yes and that's ego no no no no we get heated and we argue our case but you love each other of course there's nobody over there you're like fuck i'm sure i don't think it could work that way i mean i i spend so much time with those people that i don't know that you you could hate them i mean i i love them yeah on a scale from one to ten how much do you love doing the show honestly i would do it forever you do it forever you do it forever Well, that's not true. I would do it as long as our ratings last year were the highest that they've ever been in season 12.

And our reviews were the best that they've ever been. And we feel great about it. And fans still obviously feel great about it. So from my perspective, I got in this business to do the very thing that I'm doing. I've been lucky enough, fortunate enough, to go off and be able to do a couple other things. And I'm working on a couple movies right now. And, you know, it's incredibly challenging. and frustrating. It's so slow moving. And for a good reason, there's just tremendous amounts of money that are behind some of these massive franchise movies. But, you know, everybody that I talk to to a person in that business says that they wish that they could be doing what we do. Now, I don't mean specific to Sunny. I just mean specific to waking up every day, going into a room, having a creative idea, fleshing it out, knowing that there's a very specific path to, to production, which you can write, shoot, direct, produce, edit, and it is put out into the universe. And you know that it's going to be put out into the universe. And that's not something

that we take for granted. How many episodes have you done? I don't know. 70? No, no. More than that. 170. I thought you'd do like 80 year or 10 a year. We now do 10 a year. The most we've done is 15 a year. For a long time, we did 13 a year. Got 1334. Are there any episodes? where you're like, I fucking hated that? Yeah. Any episodes where you said, I wrote that and I hate it? Yeah, I mean, look, there's never really just one person

that writes an episode, obviously. Everybody sort of works together. Yeah, we all work together. There are certain episodes that I hated doing that turned out to be great episodes. Which episodes? There's an episode that is actually a fan favorite. It's called Chardy McDennis,

and it's an episode where we play a board game that we've created. and it's it was really fun and funny and I wrote the episode yet as you're writing it you think oh this is really funny but you're not recognizing that it calls for all of us to be in one room for three days yelling at each other like literally screaming at each other that was probably not pleasant and it was just not pleasant and it turned out to be really funny but it was not a pleasant experience to shoot yeah and then there are other claustrophobic yeah yeah you just never know what's what's going to resonate with people you know and there are certain things that i remember um one year

we did this musical episode and in it my character uh talks about doing karate right like i'm a martial artist or something and so i do this like weird karate moves and then i never thought anything of it we thought the episode was kind of funny there was such a big response to it that we thought oh it would be cool to do uh like a live showing of it i went troubadour yes okay so you went to Trubodore. I do. See you. And then we did it, we did it at the Beacon Theater. It was amazing. I couldn't believe you could all sing. Well, we can't really. But you could. Well, so the first time I did that at the Trubidor and I walked across the stage and I did these like karate moves because that's what it was. I remember hilarious. The audience like erupts, right? And I thought, well, that's strange. Like I wonder why that specifically. And then we did the Beacon Theater and we did the electric factory tower theater in Philadelphia. Same thing. Everywhere we went. The audience loved it when I did. I did. these like goofy karate moves and for whatever reason and we didn't know it but it hit it hit for some reason so then of course we beat that into the ground and then i wrote it into like the next three seasons but i have no idea why and i i still to this day don't understand why that resonated

with people really but it did and uh and we didn't see it coming it was just something that we thought i don't know maybe that'll be funny season two is when uh the romance with you and kately started Yes. We talked about this right before, but I said, stop. We're not talking about this right now. You came to my house for a party I had, a barbecue. And I remember thinking, Caitlin's cute. Yeah.

Did you know that? Did I say that to you? Yeah, probably. I'm sure we talked about it. I was like, because, you know. We had at that point, we had no. Nothing. You guys were not doing anything.

We were working together. I thought it was the last thing on earth you were thinking of. And I wasn't Dax here? Dax was here. So I met Dax through Caitlin. and Caitlin and Dax used to date, like, many years ago. So I thought maybe there was something between Caitlin and Dax, maybe rekindling or something like that.

And I was like, great, who gives a shit? But it turns out that was not the case. And that night. Later that night. That night. Later that night, we did not make out. We didn't, but I could tell. Your eyes fucked.

She made a pass at me. It was more about the language she was using. Yeah, I bet you'd like me to fuck you. Something along those lines. And I nailed it. And I, uh, didn't see it coming at all. And what did you think when you left her that day? That is a bad, bad idea, a bad idea.

When did it become a good idea? How long after? Yeah, a little while. I mean, not that long after. Not that long after. Did you start looking at her on set like differently? Like, sure. Yeah.

She's the best. I mean, she's the greatest. She's so cute. She's the funniest woman on television. You said that. I was going to quote it. You think she's the funniest woman. And she is.

She's absolutely hilarious. but not only that, but just a genuinely good person. Yeah. Like, just easy to be around. I just remember that. I went to Ferguson, Jay Ferguson, our mutual friend, because Barbecue and you were there with the kids. And how long have to be...

Well, we have to talk about that, actually, because we haven't really discussed that. So, I don't know if your listeners know this, but you were a part of one of the most infamous crews in the history of Hollywood. I was? You were a part of that Leo DiCaprio, Toby McGuire

Now you were like a tangential part of it Tangential, good word But you were a part of it I was I Jay and I were friends We did a pile out together And then he was like hey Care of my friend Leo comes over the house

So they came over my house And he'll slip where you were We would play Bond on the Nintendo And I was like wow Leonardo DiCaprio was hanging out And then Leo would be like hey Come to my beach party And it'd be just like 10 of us hanging out

And I was wearing his Titanic robe naked walking around and there was girls and stuff. And Leo was always, honestly, the fucking nicest guy. He was just cool. He was just a dude. He just wanted to hang out. He had a huge Star Wars collection. He was, I just loved him.

So I guess by like just affiliation with Ferguson, who was on the show, he was like, Fergie liked me. And he's like, dude, you're cool. And Fergie would come over. And he happened to be best friends with Leo. So I started hanging out with Leo and all these guys. And that's sort of how that happened. Well, when I first came out and I met up with you guys.

and Saul, that was the crew. Wasn't Leo at my house? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never really talk about that. I don't think I've ever brought that up, ever. Yeah. I have a videotape.

And that was at the height. That was right after Titanic, right after Titanic. Yeah, right after Titanic. And I was like, Jesus Christ, what is Rosenbaum doing that here? You know what? And you had that awesome place. I don't know. I guess I could have hung out more and done the things and become part of that crew.

I just, they were always so cool. Well, now that crew is all married, except for Leo. They're all mad. Yeah, yeah. And Toby was always great. When we see each other, we always are like, give hugs. And Leo, Leo saw me like a year ago somewhere, and he bumped up. He goes, Rosie, he's like, dude, you look great.

I'm like, yeah, well, you should slow down with your workload, bro. You're working too much, Leo. He's doing one movie a year. And the rest of the time he is living the life, he's lived for 20 or 30 years. Yeah, what a life. Yeah, what a life. Yeah, what a life that guy's up. Lean out of the cabrio.

Boy, has he done it, huh? I want to be in his shoes for an hour, 20 seconds. He's got something good going. Do you and your wife, how long? Caitlin, you've been married? Since 2008. So nine years. So that's nine years.

Do you still ever do anything kinky like on set, like have like an old school fuck in a trailer? Yeah, we were actually just talking about that this year because we used to retire to the trailer, you know, not often, but because I'm also producing the show. And I need to, you know. create at least the illusion of professionalism, we would still retire to the trailer every once in a while,

and we haven't done that in a little while. Are you still, do you still look at her sometimes go, I love that woman. Yes. You're absolutely head over heels of love one. Yeah, like two or three nights ago, I was laying in bed, and I looked across the room, and I could see her, and she was like just getting ready for bed,

and I had that exact thought. Just like, I love you. Fucking love you. Well, I was, like, so attracted to her. And I thought, wow. Like, and that was also, and obviously, you know, you're together with anybody for, we've been together for 11, 10, 10 and a half for 11 years. You know, those things kind of fade and come back and wash your erection, get it back. Sure.

It happens. Yeah. Yeah. Take a little pill and then you're good. For anybody to say, oh, yeah, I stay hard every time with the same woman or the, or she's loving it the same way that you, you know, that's just not. Have you ever taken one of those? I certainly have, sir. My dear Lord, I've taken a Cialis one time.

Did you have back pain? I thought I was going to ex... Isn't Cialis? It could be. I took like a 10 milligram Cialis once, and my dick fucking... I used it as a hammer to nail some... Yes.

It's a horrible feeling. I felt like everything was engorged. My fingers, my head. Your face is tingling. Your face tingles. Axelie, McElhaney, Leo Gray. Yeah. We were just talking about Leonardo DeCapri.

It wasn't named after Leo. No. And Axel wasn't named after her Guns N'Rose. No. Where were these names? Axel Foley. Dan, dan, dan, dan, do, dan, down, down, that's it. No, not really.

Not really. My wife's Swedish, and it's actually a fairly common name in Sweden. Axel. Come over, y'all. Bronzen Pincho. Yeah. Right? That was Bronson Pinchot from Beverly Hills Cop.

Really? You didn't know what you were doing. I didn't. Aquil. Oh, yeah, the guy in the store. Yeah, that's his name. I don't remember his name. Balke from perfect strange.

Hey, yeah, I remember that. And Leo, just cool names. Thank you. Boys' names are kind of tough. They are. I'm thinking Charlie for me. Charlie's great. One of my best friends' name of Charlie.

Yeah, I know him. You've been on Lost. I was on Lost. You're one of my favorite shows. People dog it for the last episode of the finale. I love seeing you on that. I was like, dude. I've had a lot of...

Because The Lost Creator was a big fan of Sunny. Yes, Damon, yeah. And the two writers, Eddie and Adam. I've been really lucky. I mean, one of the greatest things about having a successful television show is your access and opportunity to really cool things. Even outside of the entertainment industry,

you know, you find that people have been watching the show for a decade and they started off young and now they're old. And they used to be somebody's assistant. Now they're running companies or running agencies or, you know, in the scientific community or up in Silicon Valley or investment bankers or something like that.

And you wind up meeting really fascinating, interesting people. Do you ever take some time and just say, I'm proud of all your accomplishments. Do you ever think, hey, you know, I was this kid. Parents split up. Thankfully, they were good people. I went to this cool school. I have good family.

Somehow, through all these failures, you look at your life and you say, hey, man, I'm happy. I make sure that when, you know, something like that, someone makes me aware of that, that I take stock in that. I don't take any of this for granted. No. I don't take any of it for granted. And mostly it's because I had so much failure. leading up to it. And again, when I talk about those four years of my high school,

one of the things that they were adamant about teaching was failure, dealing with adversity, recognizing that you will fail more often than you will succeed. And what do you do with that once it happens? And then I had a good 10-year period where that did happen. And now I've had a 10-year period where it hasn't happened, at least with regards to the show. But nothing's guaranteed.

this is going to end at some point. And then what happens after that, you know, I think a lot of people get caught in this trap that they think, well, I did that thing, so this other thing is going to be successful. But you look around it, there's very, very few people who've had incredibly talented people who've had one, you know, one hit, one hit wonders.

I personally, for a long time, was like, I, you know, I'm Lex Luther and I, you know, I was that. You know, and I know I know I could do so many other things. And I know I love comedy. And I know I'm going to do all these. things but I also I was just talking to Tom willing our mutual friend who was my you know my cohort um I said if this was it I still was Lex Luther for seven years I could deal with that I would just do my own shit and you know if hopefully if I didn't need to make a lot of money if I had to get

a job if I had to do I think as I get older I just am like hey happiness is about not what other people think or your accolades or your accomplishment it's it's really how you feel inside. And it's like what you're doing and the person you are. So I love work, but I also, I'm envious. I think it's pretty amazing that you got to do a show that you've created, that you every day you write and you are a part of and you enjoy going to work. No matter how hard it is and the adversity, it's your thing.

You can walk away whenever you want, really. Yeah. There's something awesome about that. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I take stock in that as often as I can that I'm incredibly, grateful for for for where we are what's next by the way i'm working on lots of stuff lots of stuff mine minecraft yeah i have some directing minecraft uh big big studio movie that's huge yeah what's the budget on that can you know how is it a hundred million

it's probably going to be north of that wow is it intimidating or you don't you know you're not yeah but of course to a certain extent but it's just like if if if i were to step in into it tomorrow you know i look just like anything else it's just prep prep just prep just being good people around you it's fascinating when you talk to so many executives producers actors directors um how often people are not prepared when they step onto the set of a hundred and 30 50 million movie it's crazy yeah and i i think people just get complacent i think i think it's the kind of thing that to me is a wild step, right, to go and do something like that. But I think once you've done maybe two or three or four of them, maybe it just becomes rote to you. And I don't know. And it's

just not that big of a deal. And so you just don't take it as seriously. Or you're so incredibly talented that you don't need it. And I'm not that person. I will be the most prepared person. That's sound advice. And I think that's, you know, James Gunn, good friend of mine, he directed Guardians of the Galaxy one two he's doing three and he says i like every moment is just boarded and he thought out and of course he writes it and it's just you have to be that animal you have to go at it every day and you have to surround yourself with people who know what the fuck they're doing because it's overwhelming if you think the visual effects in this no stop do you don't know anything about visual effects you'll learn what you can and you have guys who really know what

they're doing do their job yeah and then it becomes less overwhelming if you just surround yourself. Yeah, well, look, that's, that's been something that has been, that has, that has been something that I've been doing my entire career, which is surrounding myself with people who are way more talented than me. Yeah. And then trusting them to do their job. A few more questions. Sure. It's just so interesting. Do you ever get, see, I'm boring. I feel like this boring is shit. I don't at all. Okay. Rob, is this boring? It's not. It's really not. It's so, it's educational. And it's like it's to me it's really interesting if it wasn't i would have just been like my fuck okay we're done 30 minutes this will be great we'll do two 15 minutes session okay good no i hope i'm not boring you

you work with someone so long like glen and charlie and keel was there where are the big fights on set with you guys did you ever really have any of that or was it sure sure give me one in particular i just i like a little dirt yeah i'll give you but it's real good yes feed it so uh there was this one scene a few years ago where it was like a dream sequence where we're getting shot and we're wearing all these squibs and but prior to us wearing the squibs there was this day player guy that was wearing the squibs and we watched this guy just get lit up like lit up with these squibs and he gets blown blown away and falls down and then we say okay now it's our turn and we're putting on the squibs and Glenn says uh i'm not doing that it's too many squibs i'm not i'm not doing it

and it's just too dangerous i want to see a test and we're like we just saw we just saw a test and he was like well yeah but but that wasn't good enough for me i want to see another test and i want to see it live without any of the clothing and and so charlie and i got pissed off because we're saying Glenn you're a producer on the show you just let an actor just get lit up by these fucking squibs and now all of a sudden you want to see another test because it's you that did not sit well with him fair enough because we were accusing him of something that actually wasn't the truth and on set he fucking lost it and that's very rare for any of us and then i made the mistake of saying glen calm down oh first of all you should never ever tell anybody to calm down because

why not it's just something it's a reaction it's a reaction but it's never going to it's never going to calm somebody down. But if he said Rosemont, fuck off. This interview sucks. I go, dude, calm down. Right. But how is that going to, that, that's just a reaction, but it's not going to, it's not going to, it's not going to calm.

Okay. So what happened? When you say, he said, don't fucking tell me to calm down. Again, like, we're never going to get physical with, with each other, but. Was it close? Not really, but it was, it was three guys yelling at each other in the middle of their set. That never, ever happened before. Was there another producer on set?

happened since we're we're no because it's just three of you there was the director but the director walked away so no one was there breaking it up and kately's not there kately was there she walked everybody walked away they didn't want to deal with it it was so awkward well you were you yelling well finally we i i yeah but we caught it after about 15 seconds and then we all said let's go outside uh meaning like let's was your heart racing sure you're in a you're in a an argument and all of us were right and all of us were wrong. So there was, you know, it was just our,

we were at like a 10. And by the time, Glenn was the hottest. Glenn was the hottest. And probably rightfully so, because Charlie and I were kind of ganging up. We also know how to egg you. We know each other so well, too, that we know how to egg each other

and needle each other. But by the time we walked outside, it was the, rational heads prevailed. And we worked it out quickly, got back on set and finished shooting. That's it, though. That's it.

But then. And then... Those 15 seconds... Those 15 seconds were crucial. They were loud. Oh, oh, those 15 seconds... The yelling wasn't like, hey, no. It was more like, don't fucking tell me!

Like that? Something along... Something in there. Something amplified by the fact that, you know, there were 50 people all around watching it happen. So it's a little embarrassing. And they're looking to us... I mean, this is a responsibility that I take very seriously.

Everybody's looking to us or looking to... to me, you know, as the showrunner, to set the tone of what the show is. But what season is this? Season 12. No, this happened in season 10, nine or 10th. This shit happens. Sure. You know.

And that's why at the end, you know. Do you laugh at it now? Do you ever make fun of that moment? You go, Glenn, remember when you flipped out? Whoa, don't go AWOL on me. We actually use it as an example of, because after that, after we finished shooting for the day, everybody went home and the three of us sat in the dressing room, my dressing room, and talked it out even more.

to make sure that that didn't happen again and you don't want it to linger like a cranberry song that's right you want it to and also we realize that there were other things we were fighting about that we have to they build up that's what happens that's right i have a band and i lost my shit on them one time and it was like it people were like i remember them all looking at me like dude you're a crazy person and i go i emailed them later and i said i apologize but i apologize for screaming at you but i don't apologize for what i said because i was right and i said but i just got carried it was all these things that bottled up and i lost my fuck fucking, like I couldn't even talk anymore.

I was screaming at them. Yeah. Yeah, which is on, look, look, ultimately that... It's not pretty. It's unfair to them, too, because if you're letting that build up, then they're, how can they be responsible for it? I agree. Those are conversations that we have, which are like, look, we know it's difficult to

confront somebody because of a particular issue that you're having. But if you don't, then you, that winds up building up and it comes out in other ways. And that affects the work. Sure. And then all of a sudden, the problem with... An animosity. Making a comedy is that if you're not having fun, that's going to show. So one of the best compliments that we get all the time about Sunny is that, oh, it looks

like you guys are having so much fun. And the truth is we are having so much fun. But if you create an environment in which that becomes difficult, that reads. I think sometimes what happened there probably made you a little tighter. Without a doubt. Sometimes you need a little explosion to just be like, all right, we love each other. And now it gets better. It's like after all those years, man.

Well, something Glenn always says to me too. because he grew up in the South where it was a little bit more passive-aggressive, and where I grew up it was much more aggressive. So, you know, I think what he appreciates is a more, I don't want to say aggressive, but more confrontational relationship because you just get it out. And that's what we do. You wrote a tweet February 21st. I think this is pretty indicative of, well, tonight is my weekly reminder that I am the luckiest man on earth.

Share with me the joy that is Caitlin Olson, hashtag the Mick. She deserves it. September 14th, 2016, just overheard a gal say, oh my God, Brad Pitt used to be hot, and now I want to kill myself. That was true. I heard that. And then even Otter, even more strange,

I took a lot of shit from people for using the word gal. And I wasn't even aware. This made me feel even older than hearing Brad Pitt. I wasn't even aware that that was an inappropriate word to you. Fuck right off. I wasn't even going to fight about it. maybe I am like a dinosaur. Am I a misogynist dinosaur? I don't know. Maybe. How old are you? 40. I'm 45. Wow, you're old. Aren't you glad that I didn't bring up that you gained weight for a particular season?

Why? Because probably everybody asked you that. Yeah, people ask about it. Aren't you glad that I just didn't? Well, it's the end of the interview. You want me to talk about it? No. I just, I know you gained a lot of weight for it. And I'm just glad that I just wanted to be unique. I didn't want to bring. it up. So I didn't really, because it's the end of the interview, I'm not asking about it. If you start talking about it, I can't stop you. You want to breeze past it? I just feel. I gained 60 pounds. It's unhealthy. You ate everything. Yeah. When I say everything, how many times a week did you have McDonald's? I eat fast food quite a bit. Quite a bit. Were you repugnant to the eye? Naked. Yeah, although I think Caitlin has told me that she, she didn't mind it. You know why? Because now she was fucking somebody else.

I think that had something to do with her. But it was still you. It was fat you, which was a fat guy. She was fucking sexy, thin rob, and now she was fucking fat repugnant rob. But I had like a big butt, and I think she liked that. Really? She grabbed it? Not like fat.

It was just like I don't have a butt. Did you feel like you can get dirtier with her because you were fat and gross? I will say that it did feel like I was a different person. Really? I loved it. Did your doctor say you have to stop this? So my cholesterol was fine. My blood sugar was fine.

My liver took a bit of a hit. but then once I once I got back down to fight and wait I was all right that was it yeah it was cool though it was just an interesting challenge I really enjoyed being inside of you today

Rob it felt natural I would say I feel like you eased in and then once you were inside that's when you went to town I just wiggled around yeah

I just kind of got lost in there for a minute well thank you this has been a real treat it has thank you very much will you come back I don't know maybe I'll come back in another 10 years Not 10 years.

What was the last time I was here? I think it was 10 years ago. Well, honestly, you've worked your ass off and you faced failure. You faced adversity. You didn't quit. Thank you. Thanks, man. Hi, I'm Joe Salli.

Hi, host of the Stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this addition that we're adding. $50,000, I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing everybody. We're out of here. Stacking Benjamins, follow and listen on your favorite platform.