Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Ep 22: Zachary Levi

Episode Date: September 4, 2018

Known for his roles in Chuck, Tangled, Thor, and upcoming DC Comics Shazam...Zachary Levi joins me on the podcast this week. Zachary opens up about his tragic relationship with his mother (which I relate to very much), how getting cast in Shazam is started to reshape his life, and how he tested for Lex Luthor on Smallville - find out who got the role. Oh, and while I’m inside him, he sings a very beautiful song Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Today's guest, he's been around the block a while. Zach Levi, also known as Zach Levi, Zili. I just made that up. He's never been called, I doubt. You guys know him from Chuck, this beautiful, angelic voice, entangled. What a great singer he has. He sings on the show.

We talk about how he tested for Lex Luthor on Smallville, but he didn't get it. It's a other guy that was just a little bit better. Might have gotten that all. Who ended up getting that? No, I'm just kidding. It was a Jew from Indiana. We're going to talk about Zach Levi, how he knew he was an actor at six years old,

the similar relationships he has with his mother, as I have with my mother. His is a little bit torturous. He had a very tough upbringing. We both bring each other to tears on this episode. I'm not shitting you. I really teared up, and he teared up. I saw it in his eyes, and it got pretty intense.

And it was one of my favorite conversations. It was just real. and moving, Zachary Levi. It's my point of view. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. Rob's never super excited about anything. I kind of wish I was Rob.

Because Rob, there's moments of like, he's like, Chicago. won six games in a row. I'm like, oh, oh, great. That's cool. I don't care. You know, but like, he gets, like, the most excited you'll see is like, hey, they won six games in a row. That's his excitement. But I'll say, hey, how was the, you know, the show? Did you listen to it? He's like, yeah. I was like, it was good? He was like, yeah, you won't get more than that from Rob, and you kind of need that person in your life. Michael, I think the bigger question is, why do you feel like you need more than that? Why do you need more than good? Why do you feel like you need, I don't. I don't know, which is why you're going, Rob, I don't.

Really? Once we're done, do I ever really? No. I never give a shit. Are you comfortable? Yes. I'm pretty comfortable. Yeah, well, of course. You have the nice fucking armchair.

Yeah? Yeah. I don't want to look too relaxed. Hi, welcome the inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. That's Harry Carey there, and I'm Larry Carey. You do a lot of impressions, too. I like that. We do impressions.

Yeah, we do. We do a lot of similar ones. We do it. You know who you kind of looked like for a second? Have you ever heard Jimmy Falunel? Fallon for a head? Yeah. You have.

There was a hair when you turned your head and you made him, uh, something, I don't know. You just kind of was like, oh, there's a felonism. And I like foul. He's a likable guy. I like him a lot. Have you been on Fallon before? I have one time. I never have.

I never have. Well, I'll tell him he should remedy that. But you've only been on once. Yeah. So I don't think you've got one time for you. So it's not like, that's a big girl. It would be. I always wanted to get on Letterman that never happened.

I was wanted me, I did get to do Letterman once. I was so happy. How did you do Letterman? What were you doing? Was it Broadway? Chuck. No, I was doing Chuck. Chuck had.

Not really. Not really. Chuck was a, Chuck was kind of a sleeper. I mean, if we got those numbers now, we'd be a smash success. But at the time, network was still kind of holding on in some ways and you needed bigger numbers. If Chuck was out now, do you think you'd have a lot more followers, Instagram? I think you would.

I actually think that Chuck would have done better in today's market on television than it did. when it came out. I think more people are kind of primed. The pump has been primed a bit more for nerdyer, outside the box. Shit. I think it would have been great to just start it on Netflix. If we would have been a Netflix show right now, Chuck, I think it would have been a runaway smash.

I think people really loved the- People like Chuck. Yeah, it had a parts. Five years? What's in your glass right there? Whiskey. By the way, not just whiskey. This is a type of Jack Daniels bourbon.

I had never even seen. I'd never heard of it And it's called Sinatra Select Yeah, and it's mine And it's yours But it's about to be mine I've had it for years

And I think I opened it for you I feel like you open it one other time Is that little safety latch on the top It's gonezo That little foil bit that's at the top You gotta get like your fingernail underneath And spin it around You're a big singer

You know you've done Broadway You've done musicals tangled and all that But you like You're the kind of guy Just a minute ago you were singing. Yeah. You were singing,

in fact, you were singing Frank Sinatra. Was he one of your, he's everyone's idol, right? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think,

um, by the way, just stop for a second. I want to thank you, Zach Levi, for allowing me to be inside of you today. Continue on your story. Oh,

well, I feel so violated in all of the best ways that I actually wanted to happen to me today. It's early. It's early. Um, so, uh, yeah,

so Sinatra, I have just like a tremendous amount of um adoration yeah adoration and a respect of sorts i mean i think if you get into the character of frank sinatra he was a very interesting cat and like way larger than life that but the world was kind of larger than life then you know this was before celebrity was this saturated almost in some ways kind of like dime a dozeny thing you know uh with the advent of all social media we we have Celebrity doesn't mean you're an incredibly talented actor or singer or anything. It just means you're famous for whatever the reason.

For whatever reason. There are so many people that are famous, way more famous than me, have many more followers than me that aren't actors. They're not singers. They cut them together on YouTube or whatever they are. They bind it up. How do you feel about that? Oh, man, that's a much bigger conversation. I don't feel great about it.

But I do, but I'm fine with it when I think it's, when it's merited on some level, I think that there are people out there who have done incredible things on YouTube and incredible things on even Vi. Right. Excuse me, that was a, that was a, Frank Sinatra Belch. That was in my way. That was one of those inhale first before you. It was like a yonnie belt.

That was an I did it. My way. So, yeah, I mean, like there's that dude. I can't remember his name, but he, I believe he started off really crushing it on Vine, but he does those really cool special. effects magic trick things like with the screen and like you like you know what I'm talking about like the like the perfect perfectly time jump cuts that these kids started doing way back when vine started because you got like start it and stop and then start it again and all of something

would appear or disappear that kid I can't remember his name I think he's a southern california kid he had millions right millions millions but but I'm like yeah dude cool rock with that he what he does is amazing it's so like it's it's a talent it requires talent and time and hard work and he's also got like, I mean, I've watched plenty of his stuff and he seems to have like a good heart and a good spirit and he involves his family and his friends. And I look at that, I go, yeah, rock and roll, dude, I want you to have all the success in the world. But there's plenty of other things or people or that you'll find on YouTube or Vine or whatever. And it's just, I don't know, it's lowest common denominator type of entertainment, if even that. And I go,

and that's reprogramming. This is one of my biggest fears is that the younger generations are coming up right now. Their entire concept of what is excellent, be it drama or comedy or direction or writing or performance or anything. What's a good singer? You know, what is sounds good? What is good? Well-written music? Don't get me started. I know I sound old. I can't just, I can't.

No, no, but this is what I'm talking about is that younger generations don't, they don't care anymore because they don't know. Because what the bars that have been set for them are so low that it's like, you know, they're seven and they're watching somebody yuck it up on YouTube being kind of stupid about the, you know, their movie review or whatever. And they're jump cutting the whole thing and they don't have one cohesive thought they have they recorded over 30 minutes and then they pick all that little prime moments and they cut out all the air and I'm like that's a that's not that

complicated nor is it that good it's not and kids are watching that going that's funny I go that's not funny you know what else they're thinking uh I'll do something like that I'll put all my and I don't have to really work that hard not to say that everybody works hard but you can make a living really you can make a good living making stupid videos they're making a living or just famous. Exactly. They're making a living being famous. And back to your point about Frank Sinatra in that time period, it was different.

It was, it was, it seemed like it was harder. It was, you know, how many networks did they have? Like, you know. Well, no, no. I mean, yes, it was more difficult, but I don't think it was more difficult because of the hustle. It was more difficult because you actually had to have some fucking talent in order to be famous for the most part.

It wasn't like there weren't some people out there that were, I don't know. They were more celebrity than they were substance. But for the most part, these were. I mean, like, Frank Sinatra was legitimate. He was, and there wasn't auto tune. Nobody was, like, there was incredible. Singers were singers. Yeah.

I mean, even if you go into 60s and 70s and like Joni Mitchell and Carol, that's why I always say, people always say, you get out of it. All you listen to are 70s and 80s and some 90s, Zach. But honestly, to me, I think of the music. I think of like the Joni Mitchers, the Carol Kings, the Carly Simons, the, you know, I think of singers. You know, it wasn't like, oh, what's that little thing that they were, the singers are doing the

I don't even know I don't even know sound I'm making it's it's a weird thing that they're not even singing it's the it's looked and sounded like a seal it's the Christina Aguilera thing

it's a what does she do you know what I'm talking about I'm just like trilling like ah it's not even that like that's fine it's more like the grinding

the yells and the and the people aren't even singing and they're like sometimes they add an eye to the and I can't I can't fucking do it I just can't do it, man.

Are you talking about autotune? I'm not even talking about autotune. It's like, what's the rapper? The rapper? The one that always goes. The one that's like, eh, I. Every one of them. Go ahead, say it.

That could be anything. They just make noises. Yeah, I don't know. I almost feel like honestly, I could be a rapper. I don't want to be a hater, but I feel like if you gave me a beat and you gave me like a couple days to write a rap to it, I could just do it. You know how many people are sitting out there all the time thinking, I can be an actor

How do you feel about those people? But this is different because with music today you don't need to really For the most part There are some great That was a great singer Okay look I'll say this I'll say this

I'll say this I'll say that I don't think most of rap is inspired But I think that the best of rap Is fully inspired And the same way that the best of country The best of folk The best of EDM the best of like whatever The best of now

How much of that applies to us? I mean there's very little rap that I listen to on a regular basis. There's very little country that I listen to on a regular basis. I mean, I love, I don't have... Eddie Rabbit, Ronnie Millsap, Alabama, any country from the 80s, anyone?

Do you remember any of those bands? You're just a little bit younger than I am, but you should know a few of them. Give me a Conway Twitty, will you? Would you give me a... Goodness gracious. Look, I'll give you a Garth Brooks, okay? Okay, okay.

Yeah, I like Garth. I like Garth. And he made some really excellent music. Were you singing around the house when you were a young kid? Were you always singing? Yeah, probably. Were your parents like, please be quiet? Or were they singing with you?

My dad, well, we grew up with my mom. My mom and dad divorced when I was younger. And then, so we grew up with me. How old? About six. Six. I think I was about six. And so didn't really grow up with dad, although he does sing or did sing.

And my mom kind of was musical, I guess, but she wasn't really. She didn't really sing all that much. I think we kind of ended up singing with my aunt, Sally, the majority of the time, my cousin, Nikki, like, we'd be out. I grew up with my aunts, my mom, my female cousin, and my sisters. Like, family outings for us was Mervyn's. You know, we'd go to, like, J.C. Penny. And they were all doing girl things, and I would find the circular clothing rack and turn it into a fort. Like, that was my existence.

And played by myself. But we would all sing like. By yourself? Play by myself. And with yourself. And with yourself. We all do. We still do.

I play with myself. and by myself. Yeah, well, I think typically one goes hand in hand with the other. Hand part in the many layered of puns at this point. So, yeah, we would sing a lot like singing oldies and stuff with my aunt Sally. We were driving to and from the mall and yada, yada, yada. My mom would always be like rocking some Jovey or some Springsteen or some Journey, Billy Joel.

Like that was, my mom would be like throwing some rock on in the house when she's cleaning the house and we'd all just rock out to that stuff. When was it where they, somebody said, Zach, you've got a great voice. How old were you, Zach? You're sitting there going, Anthony works in the grocery store, saving his pennies for some day. Zach. Say, hey.

Harry Carrey. Oh, God, we can't keep going back to Harry. We could. We can't. Well, it's true. We can't. We can't. When was the first, what was the first time somebody, that I feel like somebody actually said,

hey, you have a good voice and like identify that? Yeah. oh shit i don't know i don't know i don't know that i ever really got i think i think i probably had a okay voice for a kid or whatever but i don't know that you ever um like i don't know that i had a voice that was that was remarkable enough until i had done musical theater for a while and uh was learning more and sponging more up your parents break up at six years old those are like sort of the developmental years that that had to have some effect on you some Michael?

Massive. That's why we're here. We're getting inside you, Zach. I want to know. I know what your podcast is about. But listen, baby, I just want to know, man. I want to know what little Zach was going through. I'm stuck in my jacket.

I told you to take that fucking jacket off. Yeah, well. My God, I'm glad you did take it off because those muscles are just. Do you remember that song? I want muscles from my head down to my. That was Diana Ross. I think the Supreme. No, it was a pointer.

sisters. No. What hell are you talking about? I don't know. By the way, that entire interlude where I wasn't saying anything was the amount of time it took me to take my goddamn jack-off. Yeah. So. And by the way, because you've got me penned in here like a wild animal. Don't, don't throw that at me. Come on, dude. I told you to sit where you wanted you, you specifically. You didn't. Did ends. He did not. Maybe I didn't. But I'll tell you what it did happen is you did sit there. Maybe I did. Maybe I didn't. But you did. And you didn't. We could rewind this. We could rewind this audio right now and you said I'm really comfortable right now in this I was very comfortable that's not my fault you became uncomfortable why did you become I didn't

hang on a second I wasn't blaming you specifically for me being uncomfortable all right I was blaming you for creating a situation in which I became uncomfortable that it's two different things oh you took the jacket up because I brought up the six year old and your parents split up and we want to get personal no no no you put the microphones in a way that I didn't anticipate having to sit here in it add you know at this length already only like 10 minutes in Yeah, Zach. I'm limmy, dude. I got limbs.

Now your shoes are on the couch. It's fine. I don't care. They're clean. Those are prime. You probably got new shoes because you're in Shazam. They gave you free new balances. Didn't they?

First of all, way to work that into the interview. Well, it's a pretty exciting thing. And second, as a matter of fact, yes. They got, as a matter of fact, these were given to me for free. Because of Shazam? I mean, I think it's really my entire body of work. I don't know that Shazam. I agree with you

I agree I would say sometimes I get three things and it's not for my entire body of work it's for part of your body It's for my intermittent body of work

It's like That was pretty good That sucks So it wasn't for that one That was By the way Before we go into your six year old You know sad times

Or maybe there weren't sad times But there probably was I want to ask you We met years ago Didn't we? We met years ago Bocchi Were we playing Batchi somewhere?

Yes So you you, I was friends with this girl, Ali Hillis, who was an actress, and we were all kind of kicking around in Hollywood, roughly around the same time, but you were crushing it. You were doing Zoe Duncan, Jack, and Jane and all that stuff. They only lasted a season. Well, whatever. You were working. I crushed it for a season. I was still, you know, testing and trying to get work and jobs. And Ali was living in like in a guest house behind your house in Studio City or something. Could have been, maybe. Something like that. And so she was like, hey, my friend Michael Rosenbaum has a bowling night. And it was. that was Mondays, Tuesdays, when was that? It was probably every day. We bowled constantly. Well, there was at least like a once a weeker or something, and I think it was on a Monday or a Tuesday.

A lot of famous people came to that. Yeah. A lot of Tom Lennon, Michael Ian Black, Michael Schoalter, and a lot of fun people. Who are those people? Sarah Silverman, I think, came and bold and then took money for me from poker at poker nights. They'd have poker at my house to go, Rosenbaum, let's have poker at your house. And I go, okay, these cool people want to have poker at my house. and they came to my house and they took all my money and they left and after about four times ago

I'm not inviting them back they're using me they don't like me they want to take my money because it's easy and that was true what are we talking about you're six years old we're talking about everything i want to go back to six uh well hold on we'll go back to six in a second so that's ultimately where i met you was your bowling you're bowling nights and then we played botchie ball and uh or lawn darts no was that nice be honest yeah i think you were nice i was always nice i mean yeah i don't ever remembers you not being nice i i remember feeling like i remember feeling like you were you know you were like a working actor at the time and i wasn't and there was and there's definitely a kind of a moment i think you know yeah we were all young or whatever i didn't make you feel like hello one that will

hopefully someday work i didn't do that i was very honest yeah okay that's what i was that no you were no there was never a most first of all i didn't hello person that will never work what the fuck is that i don't know i thought that was like a hello i'd like to take you and i don't I was like, no, you didn't, I never, didn't feel like you wanted to touch me. I wasn't even thinking that. Sure. Not then, not now. Okay, even with your big muscles.

I'll stop it. So, okay, so we met many years ago. So we met many years ago. And then, but then we've just kind of bumped into each other over the years. And, and the, you know, in Smallville, I don't know if I've ever told you this. I tested for Lex Luther and really thought I was going to get that job. David Dutter, basically, like, I was like private. had some like work sessions with them to like name what's that you would have been great i don't know

about that i think you were fantastic on the show and it wasn't my path but i always that was always one of those things i was like because i didn't even really know you at that point but you know just the way that our lives in this town are so intertwined and like yeah people outside of hollywood don't realize just how small this town is it is so small so so small yeah inside of you is brought to you by rocket money i'm gonna speak to you about something that's going to help you save money period it's rocket money it's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings this is just a wonderful app there's a lot of apps out there that really you know

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Yeah. For Star Lord. Yeah. You tested for Star Lord? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember reading about that. I was like, oh, he tested too. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That broke my heart. I wanted that so bad. Yeah. You know, I just always, I have a weird thing where I'm like, look, James is one of my best friends in the world. Yeah, oh, totally. And you, and I went in there and I was like, hey, I gave it my awe.

I thought I did great. I was up for it. They liked me. I knew I had no chance because it was like, I didn't think that they were going to give a Guardians of the Galaxy Marvel movie. They were going to let me be the lead role coming from his ex off Lex Luthor from D.C. I personally didn't feel that when I think that there was some of that talk. And I was fine.

with it and in fact Chris Pratt was he's brilliant obviously Chris is a perfect unbelievable perfect and he's a great guy amazing and he's amazing in that role but I remember it was just I like those opportunities I remember auditioning for like private Ryan saving private Ryan and and all these movies and I didn't get and I go it's still cool to say I audition for it yeah one day I'll tell my child I you know what though but that's and that's a really healthy perspective I didn't have I didn't have the healthiest sub perspectives you take it personally kind kind of but I think a lot of that has to do with I

mean, what we're about to get into going back to six years old or whatever, but I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, your self-worth and your self-love and your self-respect. And where are you out in your life in your career at that time? And that was a really, I don't know, I was having a hard time in my career at that point. I came off of Chuck and feeling like I had busted my ass for five years trying to do everything I could to protect the show, protect the cast, protect the crew, and protect the fans and give them the best thing I could. And you did. And then I was doing Fandrel in four, but I was like a kind of an ancillary character that didn't have much to do. And I was like, man, did I, will I ever?

Here's what it is. Let me tell me if I'm wrong. Because for me, it's a confidence in there's an ego that says, I know I belong there. I know I'm good enough. There's no fucking doubt about it. How could they not see that? Yeah. How could they not fucking see that?

How could I not be? you know people are always saying well why aren't you doing more work why aren't you in these big movies why aren't you i go i don't i really i don't know yeah i just don't do the homework i don't i don't know i don't put myself out there i don't know because it's not a self-doubt thing i think but it comes back to being young and i did get those opportunities i think i got big opportunities early on in my career and i still get some opportunities some big ones that i'm like oh look at that that's a big one and i'm reading for that and so i cherish those moments where i'm like hey I really love this project, and I'm picky as shit, and I'm sure you are, too.

Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. I mean, there's a lot of stuff. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. But, but again, it's, half of it is knowing in your soul and your gut. Like, when I was six and I were even younger, I think, when I knew that I knew that I was an actor. I don't know. It's a really weird. I was just telling somebody today about that.

They were asking me about, like, when did you know you're an actor, but you knew when you were six? Oh, yeah. I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know that you know inside that you belong or that you're supposed to be here or whatever. but somehow you're not. Somehow you still feel like you're on the outside looking at. I felt that way my entire career. Honestly, Shazam is the first time in my nearly 20 years of doing this that I feel like

I can relax a little bit, which is so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's been therapeutic and definitely has made me think about a lot of things and, you know, reflect and the things I was reflecting on before I got the job. But it's also like so sad that I had, I had to accomplish so much before that. And I still felt like I was on the outside. Like, I was not a part of the cool kids table. I've talked about this. Rob.

Adnauseum. That's my word that he used ad nauseum. That's actually two words. Technically not your words. No, but I use that occasionally. Sure. As do many, many other people. Many other people.

But I've always felt like I don't belong. Always. I just always felt, and I fake it when I'm around people that I, I'm like, oh, look, I'm hanging out with still on. And I'm fake it and I'm fun and people think I'm confident. And it's like, it's a show. It's like, I don't really feel. Sometimes I'll get come, but I don't really feel, and that does come from childhood of being the dumb kid, of being like not getting approval. And there's all these things that you have to address.

But also being the funny kid. And that's what I had to do. And that wins with funny. Eventually, eventually the funny kid. I look at myself as I think I'm funny and girls like funny. That's how I think, like mostly, if I go if I could just get a date, I used to remember if that girl just gave me a chance. Sure. I know she goes out with hunks.

I'm a six and a half in looks, but I'm a good nine or ten in personality. That's an average of an eight. Listen, man, I know if she gave me a chance, you'd go, well, this guy's really funny. Then I'd get there. But that's all childhood shit. So go back to six. What was it when you were six years old? What you needed?

Well, because I didn't, I don't know. I didn't have any parents. What do you mean? I had parents? She moved with your mom, right? Yeah, but my mom was, uh, gosh, where do I start with my mom? My mom, uh, was a brilliant, vivacious, I mean, fucking tornado. of a personality and beautiful, charming, talented, very intelligent, and abusive as

all get out and didn't know that she was. Abusive, how? Mentally, emotionally. She was a tortured person and she was abused. You know, these are all things. I've gone to a tremendous amount of therapy to go work through because I've been abusing myself for my whole life because I learned it from my mom, who learned it from her mom. This is this generational shit that we, I think it's so important that every individual go and sit, go just, just root, just get into the roots of your life and figure out, why am I the way that I am?

Why do I do? And it's okay. Be vulnerable enough with yourself and brave enough with yourself to get to that other side of there because it's a beautiful understanding. It helps you to understand where you're, where you came from, where you're going, what you're doing in the interim. why you relate to family in a certain way, friends, loved ones in general, why you pursue the things you pursue. I always thought I knew

why I pursued acting because I loved it. There's so many other reasons why I pursued acting. I know. Not the least of which, yeah, well... To be someone else, to be anybody, anything but me. Oh, yeah? I mean, that was it. That might have been... I was accepted if I acted. Yeah.

People go, oh, you're good, you're funny. Yeah, yeah. Be that guy. Oh. The other guy is not funny. So not so much in like playing other characters, but being a successful version of you? Just, I remember I did my first play and I got a big evasion and then people the next day looked at me like, hey, you're good. You're good at that thing. And I told this story, but that's really it.

It's like, oh, oh, then this is right. I should keep doing this, but I kept thinking not being me was what they were sort of saying. It was a fucked up kind of dichotomy of, yeah. Well, it is, that is an interesting kind of nuance of performance art that like athletes don't necessarily. yet although athletes are still judged on this thing of like go and smash the ball out of the park or you're worthless and and we might you know confuse like do you like the the performer behind these characters or you just like that thing particularly when people who are fans of tv shows are like hey and then call you by your hey it's chuck yo chuck can i take a photo

with hey lex and you're like how do you feel about that when they do that i don't i don't give a shit i don't give a shit i think in the beginning i was just like you know there was a time where i was just like maybe like I was young and I was just like whatever I was like oh come on I wouldn't say you that yeah yeah but now I'm like hey I don't even think about it if you want to call me Lex it's better than asshole yeah you call me whatever you want I've I've I've always believed it I've and I've fact I've always said something to let you know in the early on was like sorry you sorry do you mind if I call you chuck I was like and I would say better than you call better than you call me an asshole yeah because like you know why not and I and I and you also know

that fame man it's the weirdest it makes people do weird things it makes me still do if I need somebody that I'm like oh my God yes because you and I are nerds in that way in the sense that we still get a high from like meeting our heroes and we want

I like autographs I like but everybody is dude I guarantee you when Obama met some of the biggest movie stars or people that he was like oh my gosh sure as was every one of them who met Obama because they're meeting a president you know it goes all different ways so it's it's an but the way that fame affects you know the folks around us that are fans of the like they don't it's a very difficult because they put so much worth in us they put so much worth they with our approval that's why i do love the ability to

have panels and look at people in the eye and say yes so you have a question i'd love to hear what you have to say it makes them feel recognized and seen like oh my god all this time and all this love and passion that I put toward these shows and these actors and these writers and directors and everyone that brought this world to life like they spend hours of their lives with us you know that's my favorite you just made me realize that but that's my favorite thing to do when I go to these autograph signings or you know comic cons all over the world and like you do I'm so fucking lucky the fact that I did smallville and the flash and justice league I didn't know but the the world the universe is just it's crazy and I get and you can make money and meet the fans but when I have these

hour they call them Q and A's you know the question and answer grade I become Phil Donahue I grab the mic and I'm on I'm not unlike anyone else I run down the aisles and I I lie on people and we talk about things and I talk to kids and I'm like this is what I want to do for my life it's so much it's so much I want I want to just talk for an hour and just do all that maybe that's it maybe that's my calling maybe I could just go to schools and universities and talk and I mean I love I love how it happened this is how it happened this is what you do if you want to you know uh attain your dreams or your goals or there was something inside of me that making everyone happy and just the look on their faces of excitement to me that was one of the i just i cherish that i love that have you ever heard of

the enneagram before no remind me we'll talk about that later rob enneagram it's a fascinating thing and it's all about kind of personalities and how we all have different personalities i want to ask you personal question i know as if you haven't been already i know but when you see you said something a little while ago it's been sort of resonating and you said the abusive and the it wasn't physical but it was mental yeah and I'm only saying this because I feel exactly I have a feeling what happened to you happened to me in some level I think we have a lot of similar correlation yeah but I didn't know this about your mom and I love my mom and all these things and I will you know I'll say these things but I just I'm curious because a lot of times on this on this podcast it becomes sort of therapy for me and right away I thought I want to want to hear what it was like, like what things she would do and how maybe inadvertent and she just couldn't control it. And what those weren't, how that did affect you. And if you've ever told her about that. Um, I have told my mom about some things. My mom passed away a couple years ago. Oh, I didn't, I'm sorry. Oh, no, no, no. All good. I appreciate that. Um, she, uh,

it was tragic. It was, it was very fast. It was definitely totally out of left field. Um, uh, it turned out being complications from pneumonia that she, uh, very kind of stubbornly just refused to go see a doctor about me and my sisters were completely unaware of it because we all of us were were kind of um i hadn't i didn't have a relationship with it for the last 10 years of her life uh not anything nothing no not not really i mean i i was putting a roof over her head and um uh it's a it's a long it's you know she she had um She had multiple DUIs and went to rehab. I put her in rehab up in Seattle.

And she was just, you know, she was a tortured person. She was just really, really tortured. And so that torture just led her to torture everyone in her life. Because ultimately, ultimately, I believe that she, I think, you know, and this is what I've come to find out in my life, is that as if you are abused, you repeat the abuse, but you repeat the abuse because I think you're done. Like I didn't, my mom got abused and she abused other people.

I got abused by my mom and I abused myself. And I did it for years and years through various methods and not even knowing that I was doing that. How would you do that? Oh, I mean, from substance to girls to, to, not to smoking, I smoke cigarettes for, you know. So filling a void, filling an emptiness. 100%. But that you know isn't great for you. It's not, it's not good for your soul.

It's not good for your body. It's not good for your heart. I can relate. It's taking more out away from you than it's ever going to give you, if it gives you anything at all. And because you, again, this all goes back to, do you value respect and love yourself? And I didn't realize I didn't have, I didn't any of those things. I understand. I did it in small ways.

I thought I loved myself. I thought I respected myself. I thought I had a lot of self-worth. But, but the point being, I think my mom ultimately felt what I was feeling in the pits of my existence. She was feeling that even times, you know, times tense. times a hundred because she alienated more and more and more people from her life because of how she would abuse them out of response of her abuse and also she had a massive drinking problem that she would go in and out of and uh but but i think all of that was she was desperate

for love she was desperate to be seen she was desperate to for anyone and everyone really to sit down and hold her as if the whole world are you like you need the entire world to sit with you and wrap their arms around you and say, we see it. And we're so sorry. We're so sorry that you were abused the way that you were abused. And we see that you're acting out of that abuse and we love you and it's okay. And being able to bring people back to life through that love and through that healing. But unfortunately, we don't live in that world. We don't live in a world where people who have a lot of really major mental or emotional problems are gravitated toward with love.

They are gravitated away from with disgust. And I felt that for my mom in some moments. I was so angry. I didn't even realize how much anger and resentment and pain I'd been carrying around for years, for years, for years, for my dad as well, because my dad, you know, I love my dad very much, but he, he went one way and he left me and my two sisters in a, in essentially an abusive home, you know, and I think he thought a lot on and tried to make the best decision, I suppose. But that, that was gnarly. And then a stepdad who was, you know,

had his own issues. I mean, it was a, I had a crazy, I had a crazy childhood. One that, by the way, I qualified for years because personalities, perhaps, if you, if you are like me, you tend to look at abuse in your life or trauma, and you go, yeah, I mean, some bad stuff happened, but I wasn't born in Uganda I wasn't you know conscripted into a child army I just I just talked about this oh no kidding and I just literally an hour ago to my brother and I always think they used to make me feel like oh yeah well you have a roof over your head and look at the nice clothes you have there's kids starving in other countries totally there's people without fathers there's people without mothers families that die on planes you think you have it bad and I believed it I I believe that they're right there are

are worse so I always felt like my problems weren't real yeah and through therapy and through a couple meetings with Henry Winkler, who I love, he said, Michael, that's absolute bullshit. Yeah. And he said, what you went through is real. And, you know, they have to take responsibility for that. Yeah. And I don't like to vilify my, my parents like they were, because I think, you know, my dad's trying to turn over a new leaf. And I, and I, and I've grown up a little bit where I just like, I love you, I love you. But I have a rule, like, you can't talk badly about But Michael, but I'm sorry, not to cut you off, not to cut you off, but I think this is where, for me, where a lot of true freedom happened for me, which was realizing that, no, it's not about vilifying.

It's actually about empathizing so deeply that you can look at them and see the human behind all of it and know that you can call out what was wrong because it is wrong. but it's not because they're bad. It's because they were probably fed the same wrong information and peddled it to you because it was peddled to them. And how sad it is that they were lied to. How sad it is that then when they were kids, their grandparents who, by the way, believed the same bullshit were saying, well, you should be so lucky and you got a roof over your head.

Now, by the way, all of that is true. All of these things that are peddled to us, there is some truth to them. We should be grateful. God damn it, we should be grateful. you live in a beautiful home in Los Angeles, California. You have so much to be thankful for. I live here. I now live in Austin, Texas. We have so much to be thankful for. There are people in Ventura County right now where I'm from. Their houses are burned to the ground. They don't even have a roof over their head. 100%. So there are these very basic level things of, do you have a roof over your head or do you not? Sure. And we can be grateful for. Okay. That doesn't excuse or absolve a parent from treating their children. with actual love, with actual patience, with the things that... Unconditional love.

Unconditional love. And, yeah, oh, man. Just, and... You are worthy, whether you succeed or not. Yes. I will love you, whether you become that big millionaire or whether you're working a desk job until the rest of it. I will love you always.

I will love you always. Did you ever hear that from your mom? I know that my mom, maybe not in those exact words. I know my mom loved me with that kind of love. deep, deep, deep down, but I don't know that she ever really knew how to live that because she was judging herself all the time and judging us based on her own judgment of herself. We were extensions of her success or failure as children. That happens to, I think, a lot of parents, particularly moms, I would say, men traditionally for a long time have been

in the workplace and moms have been, their workplace is the home. So if their children end up being successes or not successes, that says a lot about what that mom has done or hasn't done, right? I mean, perhaps in their own mind, in their own eyes or in the, look at the way the mom's shaming happens now. You feed your baby what? I can't believe you have that kind of stroller. Like, I can't even imagine. I don't have kids. I look at my friends who have kids. I go, this is fucking ridiculous. Yeah. But my mom had a lot of just deep worth and respect and love issues that she had herself. I think my mother does too. I think I, I think my mother loves me. I am. She says it all the time. She does. But I think my grandfather said something very profound. He said,

it wasn't profound, but he said, when you get married, the mother and father have a 50% each responsibility, whether that's at home with the kids, someone's working, someone's at home, but they have to be there. And the number one thing is when you have a child, they become number one. And you cannot take that front seat. You cannot. My mother always wanted to be the center of attention. My mother always wanted everything. She wanted to still be like, look, I'm young, I'm this. I'm out with my friends. I'm this. It wasn't about us. It was about her.

It was always about her. And my dad slaved and worked his ass off. And she didn't discipline or she did. She'd throw up me on my hair and mustard occasionally and we try to laugh about it now. But she would call my dad and sometimes you have come up from work and, you know, give a little spanking or whatever. And she didn't take responsibility. And there was a just a, then I would resent my father. He was not at home until dinner.

And then I wasn't. So we didn't really have a relationship. And, you know, there was no affection at all. There was no, I love you. I love you, son. I'm proud of you, son. I was kind of, I hate to say dumb because I wasn't dumb. I was just ADD.

I was colorblind. I was kind of a lost soul. I just didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I had no guidance. I had no role models to help me and have patience with me and help me in those developmental stages. And it fucking broke me. And I really feel like those kids that I look, you know, their mothers are home and

they're paying attention to their kids and they're helping them with things and their homework and educating them and help. and then just guiding them, making them feel smart and empowered. It happens at such a young age. And I think you and I just, we didn't get that. No, we didn't. Our invitation got lost in the fucking mail. We didn't.

We didn't. But, you know, we're here. And to that point, actually, I'm sure you think about this. And this something I think about often. And I try not, and I've thought about, you know, is this just being a revisionist historian or trying to find silver linings or whatever? But I don't think that ultimately, as I've interrogated this, this kind of which is perhaps, and especially because we are aware of what it is that was lacking in our past.

And for anyone out there who comes to an awareness. Now, obviously, not being aware is a really dangerous and difficult place to be. If you're malfunctioning in life and you have no idea why, that's a scary place. Well, they always say a good crazy is a crazy that knows they're crazy. Yeah. I've heard that. Sure. I agree with it.

It's better to know you're a little crazy than than not do you're fucking crazy. Always better to be informed, 100%. Right. Beyond that, I guess what I was going to add was perhaps where we then find real peace and even empowerment is if we can wrap our head around the idea that, even amongst all of that, which is not ideal, which we should have had a better version of, let's say. But all of that led us to here. Sure. and the moving around I did when I was a kid, the not having really any figure in my life

that was an authority figure that I felt protected by. Brought you here. All that brought you here. And how that ultimately built my personality being an absolute fucking nerd through most of school and having, you know, genuinely. And I, you know, not just because I read common books and play video games,

because I just, I was awkward and different and a spas. I was an absolute spas who did theater since I was in middle school. And all of those things, though, have brought me to now, I wouldn't change any of it. I wouldn't change guardians. I wouldn't change any bit of my, the craziness of my career. Without Lex Luthor. Wouldn't change Lex Luthor? I was immediately happy enough that I didn't have to shave my head, but I wouldn't change even my past relationships with girls or my ex. I literally have been married and divorced by this point in my life.

You're saying all this, and I believe you. I think you're in a healthy place and you're happy and you're doing everything you can to be happy and to be a better person. I see all that. But at the same time, with all this shit that you went through and all this adversity you face as a child, isn't there sometimes you think, you know, if you could change it? No, no, no, no. Here's a thing.

I think that's what's beautiful about it is that this is not saying that it was done correctly. What it's saying is that it was done. And there's no changing it. And, and I am here. So am I going to keep, and this is one of my biggest problems

throughout my entire life, was wishing I could go back and make it better. I mean, literally, every time I broke up with a girl or a girl broke up with me, I would sit in, and again, this is a lot that's had to do with myself worth and how much I actually loved myself and was willing to be like, okay, that didn't work out. It's okay. There's somebody else out there, whatever. But all of that

still comes to, you have to let go of the what it should or could is. And I looked at my childhood. I mean, I could look at my childhood for years and years and years. I wish it should have been this way. It could have been this way. Right. No, but it wasn't. It actually wasn't. And if it was, I would not guarantee it I wouldn't be sitting on this couch with you right now. That is a completely different path of life. Whether or not I even became an actor is completely a massive question mark you don't know i don't know that i ever would have felt the need you and i both felt a need to be seen we both felt a need to be like i've got a talent people have told me i have a talent i'm going to make people laugh i'm going to do this thing and that thing was so good that we were

able to bank on that fight with it run with it and be and got ourselves and that was going to happen anyway whether you had great parents or not you're kind of saying that no what i'm saying is i don't know that that would have happened that i don't either all i'm saying i look i agree with you wholeheartedly I'm not saying I don't know the answer but the answer somebody said hey think about this you had a completely I mean your family was functional it was happy it was supportive it was loving it was normal you had all this but it's a crap shoot you don't know where you would have landed to have the love and affection and the happiness as a child and the healthiness because I feel like throughout my life there's been just a lot of sort of my mind's too fucked up sometimes

my body's fucking beaten down from just thinking and whatever and life. And I think it stems a lot from childhood. Now I'm getting, you know, I'm better. But I think we've all gone through those stages. And I sometimes think, look, it's illogical. You can't turn back the clock. I know that. I'm saying they just gave me the choice to go back and say,

hey, you could have a father that was absolutely this and the mother that was this and a childhood in the surroundings and this. And it's a crapshoot and see where the fucking chips land, dude. And maybe you won't be a successful actor and live in Hollywood and be talking to Zach Levi in your fucking couch drinking Frank Sinatra fucking whiskey. And maybe you'll end up working at Sonoco gas station, which I could have done. Maybe it would be different. If I could look at myself and somebody said, hey, you're a happy fucking guy at 45 and you didn't have to go all through this shit. And look, part of going through the shit is what makes you stronger, what makes you better, it makes you more mature.

And hopefully if you have children, you know how to do it and you know how to do it differently. and I'm just saying if I was, somebody said you're 45 and you're happy and you have two kids and you live in fucking Indiana and I don't know if I would not take that. Yeah. Happiness and healthy and there's certain things. Take out the, take out the whatever the Hollywoodness of it is.

Right, right, right. Let's say we're still doing this podcast, but we're... What are we doing then? I love games like this. I call it Anywhere USA. USA. What are we doing? Well...

Can I be a chiropractor? okay so we're what is it a chiropractor podcast yeah it wouldn't be a probably wouldn't have a podcast so Zach so Zach this is your proctologist inside of me with Michael Rosenbaum you're a proctologist this is a proctology podcast oh my god we don't have to you're just like one of the most funny entertaining proctologist you oh my god here's backstory you like totally were on top of your game one of the youngest and top of the field you wrote an awesome book you were you brought on, Oprah made you one of her, like, health, like... I never got bees.

I got vertebraes. Come on, bro. Come on, brother. Oh, wow. Now you're going back to chiropractic? I don't know. I was going to. You're killing me.

I like the portologist. Yeah, I think practical. I think it's better. Look, I can't ignore the sign in your living room. I wouldn't have to change the sign. No, we have to go with what's in front of us right now. I'm proctology. Proctology.

I'm trying to get back to the actually good shit that we were talking about. This was good shit. We were. We were. We were talking about good shit before I went to... I like it. I mean, it's, yeah. So, no, no, but for real, though. By the way, I almost cried a little.

I've never done that. I tear it up when you're telling your story and I just, I just thought of stuff. I teared up. I noticed. Yeah. But I teared up before you. Okay. It's not a contest.

I know, it's not. But, you know, it just, it was, I got emotion. I got lost in, uh, in emotion. In the reality of our lives. Lost in emotion. So, but hold on, but going back really quick, really quick. So taking the Hollywood stuff out of it, looking at your life right now, sure, are there things that you wish would have been different if you were married and you had some kids right now

and living in Indiana. I don't know if that's what you wanted to be doing. But the point is, is that I think, and again, this is just to go with me on this thought really quick, which I guess kind of, by the way, it's more of a theistic thought, which is to say, maybe not, you know, theistic, even necessarily, not necessarily a God, or it doesn't have to be a God, just some kind of an intelligent design, which is that you're on a path right now. We don't understand that path. It is not what we think our path should be. We're all button heads with our path. Why aren't you this and why aren't you that? And all those things. And that's part of it. And that's part of it. And the amount of depression, anxiety, stress, the lack, therefore, of joy of peace that we could be

experiencing if we stopped budding heads with our path. If we just let it go. And yeah, which doesn't mean checking out. It, it, it, it, it, it just merely means that when, and again, this is a, it's, it's, it seems a little, you know, silver liningy, but like when shit goes wrong, things that, things that are outside of our control, looking back at our childhoods and going, well, I wish it would have been different. I don't think that. I don't, I don't, I try not to look back. I really move forward. My, I have my, my, one of my therapies, he stood up above me, but he says, Michael, you've got a one foot in the past, one foot in the future, and you're pissing on the present in the middle. And it was true. I think I was doing that too. I don't do that. I try not to look back now. I try to move back. How do I make my life better now? How do I enjoy my life as much as possible? I love what I do. I do a lot of great things. I'm gifted. I love all that. So even aside from then, perhaps wishing the past could have been different, which and the only reason why we would wish it for it to be different was because we were unhappy with the present and we wanted the present to be better than what it is. Presumably, right? We wish that was a better thing

and that would have led to a better thing, whatever this thing is. But if we look at that and go, and we go, okay, this isn't what I thought it was going to be, or I wanted it to be. But why not? And to use an example really quick, and I don't know what this would be like. I'm constantly humbled by people who go to things like this, but imagine, if you will, that you were born with one arm. How do you not grow up and be angry at God or the universe or no God or universe, just like that. life and just people and being like this is this is not fair and i would agree i don't think it's fair at all i don't think being born behind the eight ball in any way shape or form physically mentally

emotionally whatever that that's all bullshit i don't know where i begin or being a soldier who's gone to war and has lost the limb or i think about these things i go i holy crap going back to like the things where we should be grateful for right like i can i have all of my digits i can tie my shoes You ever spraying your finger and realize how much of a pain in the ass it is just to tie your shoes? You're like, oh, my God, I didn't realize. Imagine having no arm. Yeah. And I think about.

Or just get slip-ons. What's that? It's not the point. That's not, wow. I know. I can only imagine that it's people like that, that face that kind of adversity that come out the other end of that adversity that are really understanding the depths of radical acceptance. It's something I learned in therapy. Radical acceptance.

And I think it is profound, man. It's so profound. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't all be striving to live a great life to hold those in power accountable for protecting all of our abilities to live a great life and to help others live a great life. And if we don't live a great life, then that doesn't say it's, or that somebody's abusing us, that's not saying it's right, but to radically accept what has happened to us in our lives and to help others radically accept what's going on in their lives while

simultaneously moving forward to make it better because otherwise we're going to be constantly unhappy we're going to be constantly discontent and that's i think that breeds more discontentedness i think how or how or what percentage better would you say you are now than five years ago 10 years ago have you do you see through therapy through working on yourself do you see a a huge difference, huge change in just the way you feel. Oh, yeah. Do you think there's something to be said about, you know, like you just got a huge part that changed your life in a lot of ways, right?

Yeah. Now, is it hard to differentiate getting a job and thinking that, I'm fulfilled as opposed to something else that you should. Does that make sense? No, no, 100%. I mean, that was actually one of the things that I worked on, you know, in the most recent intensive type of therapy that I went to. And what kind of therapy is that?

Behavioral therapy? dialective behavioral therapy and uh do you have guys like you know the greatest he you do there's there's there are some really incredible people that you can find there are even groups of them that work together and doing various things and retreats and all that kind of stuff you really think it works it really yeah because ultimately i think that i think the therapy is it's paying for parenting that you never got that's really what you're doing and hopefully you're finding some really great pay for parents that's you need people to be able to look at look at you like, like Winkler did and say, that's a lie.

If you're a child who's never true, like really actually been told what's real and what's not, what's fair and what's not, what you can expect reasonably and what you can't expect reasonably, what is real love and what is fleeting love? How much should you value yourself? I mean, all of these, these are parent, this is parenting one-on-one. But most, not, I won't say most. I will say probably a lot, maybe most even. Parents don't know that. They got the short end of the stick from their parents who got the short under the stick from their parents. This is generational shit, people. This is why we end up in the places that we are. Because all psychology talks about the same stuff, which is your parents learned it from, you know, it's generational. So that's

why you got to go take a moment to go, okay, what do I know that's true and what is not true? How long did you go? Well, I've done therapy in various forms. I've done therapy where it's a, like, week check-in, so I'll go, like, once a week. If I'm in a good place in my life, you'd spot things, or you check in, like, once a month or whatever, or every couple of weeks. I recently went to a really intensive therapy retreat, and it was, like, a whole battery of folks. It was so alike. I was looking at something.

I was actually, I go, are there places that I can go for, like, a health? retreat for just a getaway to just like we just kind of reconnect yeah to regroup to kind of just or disconnect yeah and I go are there places where you could just can I do that yeah and I went online and I started like I go oh there's this thing in Sonoma and they're emailing back Michael we realize we saw that you were up like yeah I don't know I don't know I don't because look there's I go on these it's look I it's worth it and I can be we're gonna talk about this I'm gonna do it go research go figure out what it is that, you know, whatever the program or place or people or, you know, do all that research.

But at the end of the day, look, I mean, I can't talk about it enough. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can go. We can talk about this ad noisium. Yeah, we could add nauseum. You fuck rock. How dare you use a word that I use? Uh, I, I mean, look, here's the thing. If you go break an arm, it's so evident that you need to go treat that arm.

It's so evident that you need to go spend the money to go fix your arm. your mind you got to fix your mind yeah free your hearts and the rest of your and the rest will follow actually is the lyrics free your mind and the rest will follow i didn't know that yeah i thought was free your mind then the rest of your soul no no i don't think so low don't be so shallow you know a lot of words to a lot of songs i do you're in greece i was not in greece i looked on wikipedia well i did in middle school i okay then fuck you because you did great. I'm sorry, I didn't realize

we were going back to middle school. Also, what is my middle school resume doing on Wikipedia? I'm not fucking, I'm going to say right here, I was also in Greece and that's why I said it. Who were you in Greece? I was just Vince Fontaine, the DJ.

You were Danny Zuka, right? No, I was Sunny. I was one of the T-Buny. Sonny's a good one. Did you the mooning? I spent my day. No, no. That's duty.

Duty. Duty. Yeah. Sunny didn't have a song, and so then they gave me the hand drive. I sang the handjad. Born a hand jat. Before I was born a handjad.

late one night. Everything's all right. The doctor left when Molly down. The stomach was dancing all around. But the bebop's talk was about to arrive. My mama gave birth to the hair drive. Wait, but that was, did Vince McMahon sing that? Vince McMahon, yeah, the wrestling announcer.

Here's the hair dive. Ladies and gentlemen. No, I didn't sing that. I started it. You started it. So it's amazing. It sounds to me like it was an outlet for you, too, an acting, and you started, like, doing it. And it kind of, like, it took you away.

It was just you found your passion, right? Yeah. I mean, look, I honestly believe that when I was four years old or thereabouts, I don't know exactly what the age was, but I knew that I knew that I was going to do this. I can't explain it. What were you watching? No idea. No, I mean, I just knew I want to be an actor.

I knew. Performer, entertainer. Yeah, I just knew. And I know that a lot of people. No, quote unquote, no. I know, you know, every child growing up, we all want to be something of imports. Yeah, DJs. A DJ.

It could be a cop or a firefighter or an astronaut or rarely a political figure, particularly nowadays. But, you know, every kid wanted to be a singer or an actor or an athlete. I mean, these are, these are every. And we all kind of feel like, oh, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm supposed to do that. Right. So I know that it's, you know, I don't know that my feeling was anything more or less than other kids, perhaps, but maybe it was. I don't know.

I knew in my knower. You know, and then I just kept doing it, and I kept loving it and kept having people, like, similar to yourself, say, you're good at that. Right. Now, you're pretty religious, no? I'm very spiritual. Very spiritual. But not particularly religious. Do you believe in God?

I do. Yes. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I have a lot of friends that's weird. I have a lot of friends that are atheists or so they say. And I don't really talk about it, but I'm like, you know, they're nice guys. I love them.

I don't look. I'm not going to be your friend. You don't believe in God. I just, part of me that doesn't believe it, that they're, like, actually, I think you have to have faith in something. I don't know what, you know what I mean? Well, I would, I would argue that atheism is a faith. It's just, it's, no, no, but it's a faith in nothing. But it is still a faith.

You still have to believe something that is unprovable, which is interesting, you know. Right. But I understand, look, I have plenty of friends that are atheists as well. And I, look, I mean, part of the reason why I'm deeply spiritual, but not religious is because I think religion, unfortunately, is, incredibly destructive, in my opinion, is very destructive to what I believe the true heart and spirit and essence of a God is. I think religion was the trappings that man put on top of God

in order to somehow control the imagery of and therefore the people and what that all is supposed to be. You know a lot about religion now? I know a decent amount about it. Jesus was a Jew, right? Jesus was a Jew. So why isn't everybody who loves Jesus' fault, Jesus' Jews? Well, because Jesus came to fulfill the law. And therefore, then the people who believed that he did fulfill the law,

followers of Christ, and then at Antioch is a fun little tidbit. The city of Antioch was the first time, I believe, those particular Jews who followed Christ were called Christians. And then that's when that kind of, but they were still very Jewish. In fact, James, who was one of the main apostles, I mean, he was wanting people to be. become Jewish before they became Christians, essentially. He was still preaching circumcision, which was a very Jewish tradition, but in Christianity, people like Paul were saying, you don't need to get circumcised anymore. That was a marker to your commitment to God, but you're now circumcised in your spirit. You don't need to do that on your body. And James was saying, no, no, no, you still have to get certain. You've got to do all the things a Jew would do, and then you made it through the first gate, and then you can be a Christian, essentially. And Paul was saying, no, it's a whole new thing. You don't need to do that anymore.

like two major people in the Bible don't agree with each other and that's the thing about Christianity that I find one of the things about Christianity I find fascinating is that in most Christian churches that's never really talked about people don't say you know what's interesting is that James and Paul completely contradict each other

listen we've already been doing this right it's 26 after but let me tell you something I want to end on because this has been great for I hope for you but for me it's been very like incredibly insightful and you know it's funny because you see people around you see friends and other actors and people you admire and you know and like like yourself and

and you just don't know like what they went through yeah and you just assume oh that's a really good looking guy very muscular he's he's he's handsome he's got a great smile chazam this is a life changer it's a game changer this is exciting you're uh you're the lead role yeah i've noticed in the few times i've seen you in the last couple of weeks even and we can even go back to a star war's that was on the beach a couple of years ago your body as good as it was is much better it's it's larger

it's firmer it's plumber you're working out a lot I am I'm working out like five six days ago how much you're a big guy already but how much did you weigh before Shazam before you got the roll before yeah before I got the roll I was about 200 pounds I hovered around 200 pounds most of my adult life and you're about 215 now

220 you've gained 20 pounds in what a month? Yeah, about a month and a half. And how many times a week do you work out? Five days a week, six days a week. Depends like sometimes we'll do two a days and then we'll get more off days. But typically we'll just go, you know, hour and 15 minute sessions every day. How many calories do you eat a day?

3,700 calories. With then like a bunch of other supplements like fish oil, omega-3s, like, by the way, fatty acids are huge. Like so important for health in general. Omega-3s. Omega 3,000 calories, five times a week you're working out. What are you eating? Are you allowed to eat whatever you want? No, it's pretty lean.

It's clean. It's clean. Does someone make your food? Yeah, oh yeah, I do meal delivery. Yeah. Do they pay for it? Shazam? Sure.

Do you see? Yeah. I would hope so. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you gave you enough money in your deal that, you know, maybe you could pay for it. Well, yeah. No, I mean, look, it's part of the job. And I, and they've been very awesome about taking care of me when it comes

to like this is sure they want you to look great and by the way i remember when i first got smallville and i was like you know what lex luther he's a billionaire he should have beautiful hands and manicured and i never got a manicured a manicure before and i go yeah well uh the w pay pay for a manicure and they're like yeah sure and i went and got a manicure i never went back i go i feel really weird i shouldn't be doing this i go my nails are fine i need a little more milk in my diet A little more milking? A little white spots? Well, I had them.

I don't know. But then, you know, maybe a few. I have good nails, I think. I feel like I have really good. Yeah, you have really good hands. Yeah, you have large hands. Are they soft, supple? You are, you're, you know, I have a lot of close friends in the business that are really good guys.

I've known you a long time. We don't hang a lot, but we see each other where it's always a treat. Yeah. And I like you, but I like you so much more after today because I really feel like, like you said, we have a lot in common. Yeah. And I, and I, and I wasn't aware of it. And it really, I was taken aback because I felt like I couldn't believe the parallels.

And it's nice to see. It's like, it's for anybody out there who, you know, whatever. I mean, I'm like, again, did I have the worst childhood? No. Did I, you know, did you? Maybe. No, not by a long show. No, but, but it was still, it was still abuse.

Absolutely. And that's the thing. You just got to be able to look at what's happened to you and be able to recognize it, name it. For me, I think maybe I don't want to embarrass anybody. Do your mom and dad listen to this podcast, brother? I don't think they've ever listening. You know, here's the thing with my dad, he's really weird. He doesn't ever say, I'm telling you, this is true.

I've never heard this. So are you dating anyone? What's going on with your career? Yeah. Very, very, I mean, almost never. I've never really just ever heard. I've never heard. What are you guys talking about?

I love you. Hey, well, there's a weird thing where he's turning over a new leaf. But there was definitely, our conversations would be like, Hello? Hey, Dad, what's going on? Uh, not much. Oh, yeah, what's going on? How's work?

That's good. Oh, great. How's, uh, Eva? Oh, she's good. Okay, good talking to you. There was just, it was just nothing there. There was just no, it was distraction. There was like no connection.

I don't know what it was for many, many years. And now there seems to be a change. There seems to, I don't know what's happened. Do you think, do you think perhaps, and I don't know your dad, but I, what have I did? Actually, Michael, your dad and I have been talking about this ad nauseum and, uh, yes. No, I was just wondering, you know, do you think that perhaps people are guarded or they don't really share a lot because they're ashamed? And maybe they're dealing with, like, he knows that he wasn't really the dad that he wanted to be or that you needed or whatever.

Maybe he's listening to more of these podcasts than you think. Yeah, I don't know. And the real reality is like we talked about, again, I love my parents, I wish them the best, I want them to be happy, we'll have whatever relationship we have, whatever relationship I want to have. I will talk to them when I want to talk to them. And I've sort of set those guidelines like, hey, and I'm still fun, I'm still me, but I'm not going to devote all my time and energy to people who I have to want to really enjoy being around them. And I actually spent five days with my father, which was longer than I've ever spent with them. I usually spend like one day a year, if that. And it wasn't terrible.

Maybe because his father has Alzheimer's, my grandfather, who's one of my best friends. Maybe because he just retired from his job, got divorced for the second time, all these things. And he's turning over new. Mortality. Well, mortality. Maybe. And he is getting older and he is starting to say things like, you know, I feel old. You know, all my, you know, Joe Walsh just died.

No, he didn't die. Somebody died. A Walsh. The guy from EWall, Eagles. EWall? EWall. Was that a movie? I'm tired.

This podcast is over. Hey, look, I, I'm proudy and I'm excited to see Shazam. And because of the job itself, I just, I just feel a lot of peace. I don't know. I feel like, again, like I've, I was already working on feeling my self-worth and love and respect before this. I was finally getting to a place where I was like, perfect time. I love me. I'm good.

And whatever my journey is going to be, however it unfolds in front of me, this radical acceptance, I'm okay. I'm good. And I want whatever's on the other side of this. And then like that, in one week, I ended up going from not being Shazam to being Shazam in that process. And then I just have peace with that because I didn't feel like I somehow, like, made it happen. It happened. And it happened at the right time for the right reasons. And I think you made it happen.

Well, maybe maybe through during doing that personal work. You took those steps to you. There's that whole thing. You just got to want to get better. you want to be a better person you want and there's that hey I'm motivated how and that's I'm at that place in my life from like how do I feel better what can I do and that's the biggest step at least that's what my doctor said yeah that's a huge step Michael and yeah and it's a I think it's all tied to are you actively loving being kind to yourself

yeah or are you talking you know like I I I had horrible self-talk I shit all over myself mentally all the time it was part of repeating the abuse that I got sure and I didn't even realize it. And my therapist was like, would you talk to your friends the way you talk to yourself? And I never even thought about that. I was like, I would never, never in a million years would I talk to people that I love the way I talk to myself. So why do I do that? Because I believed it was true. You got to reprogram that stuff. You got to know what's true and what's not and you got to love yourself. You got to know that you're worth it. Can we just end on maybe a little song? If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning. I'd hammer in the morning. I'd hammer in the

evening all over this land i'd hammer out danger i'd hammer out warning i'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters all all over this land i'm hammered from that this has been awesome why I went there, but I, it was right on, you nailed it. The tone, the tonality, the, hey, Zach, thanks for allowing me to be inside of you. Thank you, Michael. You were very gentle. Hi, I'm Joe Saul C. Hi, host of the stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about What if you came across $50,000? What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account.

The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this addition that we're adding. $50,000, I'll buy a new podcast partner. You'll buy new friends.

And we're done. Thanks for playing everybody. We're out of here. Stacking Benjamin's follow and listen on your favorite platform.