Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Ep 29: Stephen Merchant

Episode Date: October 23, 2018

Stephen Merchant (The Office, Extras, An Idiot Abroad), tv royalty joins us and discusses how dumb the bullies were at his school growing up, the lessons he learned shooting a film with Ralph Fiennes, and how uncomfortable small things make him. Stephen complains about Ricky’s impatience but also explains how it contributes to how well they work together. Stephen explains how he’s been able to find fulfillment in show business and how much Hello Ladies was like his real dating life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. My dear friend, Rob, is here. Hi, Michael. Hollis. Who do we have today?

We have a guy that I love, a co-creator of the office. Yep, he's one of my favorite comedians. Stephen Merchant, dude. This guy is amazing. We talk about so much great stuff on the show. He did extras also, and he did Hello Ladies on HBO, which was canceled way too soon. And he's, by the way, he's a great actor. This guy's a really good actor, and I think he's going to do a lot of serious stuff in the

future. So I'm no nostridomas, but I'll tell you something, my brother. Nostradamus? Whatever, dog. This is going to happen. I mean, he's a really talented guy and he's a really nice guy too. Yeah, and you know him from your show that was canceled. Well, his girlfriend now, she was on imposter and thank you for bringing that up. But, uh, Mercia, I said, hey, Mercia, anything I shouldn't talk about. He's, she's like, well, I don't talk about his height, maybe. First thing he talks about is his height. But I love this story about Ricky Jervais. I love how they met. I love that whole thing. Uh, he's just, uh, forced to be wrecking with, man. This guy is a genius, but listen, uh, and you'll learn a lot. Yeah, he's got a movie coming out and a little bit called the girl in the spider's web. I think it's the spider web. Um, well, apostrophe s, huh? Yeah. Gotta go smart on me.

And it comes out November 9th. Oh, man. Which is really soon. Inside of you is sponsored by ADT. That's not to be confused with my ADD. Or ADHD. This is eight. Do you think I have that too?

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It's my point of view. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. Do you have a lot of theater training? No, I did a play a couple of years ago. didn't get on with it. Turns out you have to say the same thing every night. See, that's my problem with, I think, everything.

If you get a series, you realize after the pilot, you have to continue with the series and the role. Do the same thing. Don't you say after five, ten episodes, you ever get like, oh my God, I'm still playing this guy? I don't think I've ever been in a show that's lasted that long. That's not true. Out of choice sometimes.

Really? Well, in the UK, you don't do long runs of things on the whole. Or if you do, you only do sort of, you know, six episodes at a time. Is there a reason for that? Economics. We don't have anything like syndication in the UK. So, you know, you have the kind of money, so therefore you can have teams of writers. So therefore, how can you generate, you know, 10, 20 episodes?

So you just don't make a lot of money. You don't make a lot of money and you don't make a lot of episodes. Yeah, except say, long-running soap operas. Yeah, I walked outside this morning and I see this water and power truck. And then behind them is another one. And you are lodged somewhere in between. Yes. Coming up the hill.

But you had a very nice. smile on your face like here I am well I was pleased because you'd come out of your house to greet me that you could see why I was late were you late I was late by 10 minutes and I don't like being late but I I realized you had seen what happened it was the perfect excuse my gosh and there was this guy on top of it this behind the truck right there was a guy just like bobbing up and down on the back like a like he was on a go car and it was moving it maybe two miles an hour yeah my grandmother used to refer to the merchant luck and over the years I've realized the merchant luck and she used to mean that in a negative way that we had bad luck my family but actually i think we do but

it's very minor bad luck it's things like that you're on the way to an appointment you get stuck behind really slow water power tree cutting equipment or something yeah you know what i mean it's quite specific but so you have some bad luck but it's not real exactly it's just it's like you're spraying your ankle on a run that's it's the merchant exactly it's like you're not going to lose your leg we generally have been lucky in our lives you know we're not we're not we've we've we've got a fairly easy run but just minor frustrations Stephen merchant thank you for allowing me to be inside of you today please I welcome you in do you know that was a good reply that's the that's the first I welcome you in

we've had right Rob he's not a microphone doesn't matter um how do we meet do you remember we met as I recall uh via an agent I think it was via an agent well now I can't remember Were we, do you remember the agent's name? I'm no longer with him. Yeah, Richard White's. Are you with him? I am. You are still with Richard White's.

I think you were directly with him. Yeah. And I was indirectly. Yes, there was another agent there which left the agency I left, which, you know. But he took us out. Did we go to a game? I think we went to some kind of sporting event. Was it a Dodger game?

Yes. Is that baseball? That's baseball. Yes, I believe that was what we did. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? I'm a big baseball fan, as you can tell. You are. And so we went there.

And on the way back, do you remember he pulled in and took us to Universal Studios? Like we were sort of the children of a divorced parent. That's true. It's like Kramer versus Kramer. Yeah. And we didn't have tickets. So our super agent went up and said, so what are you going to do? Well, he's going to the box office.

He's going to talk to the manager and say, I'm with two guys who are celebrities. Right. But really no one really knew us that well. They did know. But do you remember a lot of his angle was that we worked for NBC? Or is that what he said? He was saying, was your show on NBC? Mm-mm.

Oh, okay. Well, he was talking about how I was involved with the office and that was on NBC, Universal, and that was, and somehow he, but what you realize is if you have the chutzpah of an agent to go up to a 21-year-old kid working the gate at Universal Studios and just, you know, and just talk at them with great authority, they let you in. I remember you were, you know, when I met you, you were very, you have such a calmness about you're incredibly funny. It's like I sort of just keep saying things hoping they're funny. You're throwing shit at the wall, saying what sticks. Exactly. And you sort of, I'm not to say you more calculating, but you choose not to say as much. And when you say something, it's usually funny.

It's precision engineering. I'll tell you what it is. It's sometimes nerves. I think that when I first meet people, I often, I have a fear of coming over as, you know, as overbearing or I don't, I don't know. I don't, I think I've learned over the years to be more socially adept. but I don't think it comes naturally. I think it's a defense mechanism for me. I feel like I've always felt like I'm the guy that just,

you don't accept this guy, but then you realize, oh, he's kind of funny. Right, right, right, right. And then it's like, okay, look, look, oh, this guy's, he's got good energy. He's fun. Yes. Instead of just, like, I feel, fear, if I'm quiet, if I just don't do too much, I'll just be overlooked and ignored.

Yes. Maybe that's not healthy. Maybe I don't mind that. Being ignored. Possibly. Do you know what it is? Sometimes I wonder, I think when you're very tall from a young age, you draw attention whether you want it or not. And a lot of actors like attention and go into performing for attention. Weirdly, I got attention just by virtue of being tall. And I think perhaps performing was a way of controlling that attention, deciding when people laugh at you, deciding when people look at you, a little bit more, or at least being in control of that. So you always had people looking at you. You always felt like you were different, like you were odds. You're there. You're, you were standing out, you didn't want to stand out. Right. Because when you're a teenager, I think that you either want to blend in and fit in, or you want to mark yourself out from the crowd for

attention. And I think I probably wanted to fit in and was forced to stand out by virtue of being six foot seven. Well, I was six foot seven. Yeah. I was the opposite. I was the smallest kid in my high school. So I stood out in the other way. Yeah. If you and I went to high school together, maybe that would have been a really great TV show. You know, I think I would just, that would have been finally someone I could bully. Jesus, Stephen In this environment That's where you want to go

You would be like finally Pick of the smallest kid I did get Did you get picked on Did you feel like Since you were tall That they were like Oh tall guy

Huh Come on tough guy Let's do this No I never got that In fact A lot of the bullies in my school Were so dumb They never even

Clocked on to the idea That they could pick on me For being tall It was like they'd choose other things Hey guy with glasses It's like okay But a lot of people have glasses Right

the six foot seven guy go beam pole come on come on guys did you play sports were you athletic no you don't want to play sports i just wasn't very adept at people who would obviously say and they still do do do you play basketball i mean because if i was that tall i i'd play basketball yeah basketball's not as big a thing in the uk yeah that's true did you play soccer poorly don't they call it football that's right um because we use our feet to kick the ball rather than pick it up and run with it oh that makes sort of makes sense yeah i think it does um um You can see I have a big sports fan. Yeah, that's okay.

Yeah, you didn't know that we went to see the Dodgers that baseball team. That's okay. That's okay. Did you, were you, as a child, did you feel like you were more of the guy that goes upstairs and reads a book? Yes. Is that because your parents were like that? Did they have good, like, sort of, I mean, were they always reading? Were they always, like, educating you?

They weren't, they weren't. Be smart. They weren't overly educated people themselves. They were working class people who, who, but they were smart and are smart. and there was always books in their house and actually, bizarrely, my mother used to buy and sell books kind of secondhand. So there's always books around, and I think she encouraged,

both of them encouraged that. And I think I just, I don't think they had to push me to do it. I think I was just drawn to it for whatever reason. Do you feel like maybe it was an escape? I certainly was a big comic book fan when I was younger. Really? You know, a lot, all the trappings of the classic nerd was me. What were your favorite comics?

Batman and Superman. Really? Yeah. You know, I played Lex Luthor? Yeah, no, I didn't know that. The problem with your Smallville show was that he wasn't Superman yet. So, like, why am I interested? You know, I want to see the cape and the tights and everything.

Because, Stephen, because for the first time in television history, we were telling the story before the story. Absolutely. It was about how did he get evil, had he get good, how did he become super. But for you, you didn't have the interest. I already knew. You already knew how it happened. You read the comics. There you are.

You want to see Superman. I want to see him. But they had Superman. and Lois and Clark, they had Gene Hackman. Now, Lois and Clark, I was a big fellow. I love that show. Because they were already Superman. He was Superman. Pardon my vernacular, but fuck you, Stephen. Rob, did you watch?

Smallville, no. Did you read comics? Not really, no. Were you popular in school? Yeah, I guess. Okay. I don't think I was, I wasn't unpopular. It wasn't that by virtue of reading and being interesting comic books. I was unpopular. I just wasn't, I was sort of, I was nowhere particularly, you know, I was not a popular or unpopular. I was fine. You were just there.

I was just there. I was a solid presence. You know, just like I was, you know, oh, there he is. But it wasn't, no one was excited. Or people, did they find you abusing? I was funny. I was funny. Or I think I used, yes. Once I got to found that tool, then I used that to the point where it became, I think, probably annoying. In fact, you mentioned about that idea of when we first met not coming out all guns blazing. And I actually think probably if you'd met me as a teenager, I was a bit more exhausting. You know what I mean? I think I was trying to be funny all the time in a desperate attempt to use my one asset. And I think probably at some point I realized this is tiring. Yeah, I think for me, it's like sometimes if people don't laugh, if they're different. The energy is different. I assume, oh, they just don't like me. Right. And that's an insecurity. That's something I've worked on. Like, hey, not everybody's going to react the way you want them to.

Not everybody in the room is going to love your joke. Right. You're not going to sell it everywhere. I read some article where you read where you were interviewed where they said something about, you know, when you're doing a project, when you're writing a project, you can't think of some guy for the telegraph what he's going to think of what you're writing. You just write on instinct. Of course. Yeah.

And I think that was sort of profound. I mean, it was simple, but it was profound because that's sort of like when you have an idea and you think something's funny, you write it. You don't say to a million, look, you ask some of your close friends, do you think this is funny? Sure. Do you think this is funny? Do you ask people, is this funny? Or do you go, this is funny? I'm writing it and this is going to stay.

I'm not going to even ask anybody if this line is funny. Well, I think it depends on what you're writing it for. If you're writing it for stand up, for instance, if you do stand up, then you know you're going to be told. if it's funny pretty damn quick when you get on the stage. So then you've got the perfect test because if the room doesn't go with it and you can try that three or four nights and if it doesn't work, it's not funny

or something's a screws loose in that particular bit. So that's easy, that's a kind of, that's a basic, you know, litmus test. Yeah, instant gratification or not. Right. When you're writing a project sort of, and you just, you know, kind of bunkered away writing, I agree it's much harder. So there I would get people

to read it and tell me. I would love it if someone would go through a script and just tick and, you know, put a check and a mark against what they thought was funny. I think just a binary decision like that. Just instead of explaining why? Exactly. Just say, not funny. Just boom, no.

Yeah. But then there's probably this competitive spirit in you that wants to go, okay, not funny, huh? I'm going to write that again. I'm going to make that joke funny. And you're going to keep going. Are you like that? No, I don't have that. I'm going to teach you a lesson.

I'm not going to compromise it or change it based on the whims of other people, but I will listen and be guided by other opinions that I trust. Otherwise, it's very hard to work in a vacuum. Have you dealt with a lot of failure in your life? Because it seems like all I read is success stories. And people assume office, extras, all these movies now. You're a real actor. You're, you know, you've done it all.

You've done radio. You've done. And so it's like stand up that they only associate probably success, success, confidence. Right. This guy knows what he's doing. There's no. Do you still feel insecure? Do you still feel moments of like, oh, man, I don't belong?

You know, just really in recent years, for the first time I've started feeling like, oh, I'm a professional of this. Yeah, I know what I'm doing. Now, maybe it's turning 40, something where I felt, you know, I'm an adult, you know, yeah, you can bring me into the room. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not always going to get it right. So there are other times when you remember being in a room going, I'm fucking, I can't, I'm so nervous. I feel comfortable. I don't know these executives.

They're wearing ties. Yes, yes. I think that. I think assuming other people were pros. You know, if you spend enough time in Hollywood, if you work with enough people, particularly people you admire, you realize everyone's just figuring it out. Everyone's making it up as they go along. There's no, you know, when you're a kid, you look at and you look at people you admire, whether it's Steven Spielberg or whoever, and you sort of think, they're just another breed of person. And then, you know, once you get to meet those people, they have, they're super talented, but they have their own doubts or their own processes or their own questions. or they're assholes or they're not or they're, you know, and so at some point once you realize that, you're like, oh, no one's the perfect person, no one's got it all figured out, no one has lax insecurity.

And that's comforting, isn't it? That's very, it's enormously comforting. Yeah, I like to see, not to see people fail, but to know that other people have insecurities, that they have fears, that they have, that no one's got it. No one knows it.

No one knows it. Right. And you said something, what did you say? You said something about one of your heroes just now. And when you meet your heroes at the rest, I read something about that. You read, you saw, you met one of your heroes and they weren't kind. Who, did I name the person? Maybe that was another Stephen.

David Bowie. No, no, no, no, I read that you read someone who you admired and they were kind of an asshole to you. I did that, a few, that happened a few times when I was much young, before I really got into the business, when I was still at college or, or, I remember one comedian in particular that I admire. That's what it was a comedian. Yeah, and then, and then I sort of met that person just as I was starting out my,

career and they were kind of a dick and i remember being quite taken aback by it um and and years later realizing it was their insecurity that led to them being aggressive what was it do you think like i always say when you know if someone tells me you know i grew up in indiana and i'll say hey how's so-and-so i bet they're an asshole or i heard so-and-so's a dick right and i'm like well i like to give the benefit of the doubt of course everybody look if you you have a bad day maybe someone's sister just died Maybe you just got in a car wreck Maybe and someone comes up to you go Hey, no, no, I can't right now

And like, oh my God, that guy's an asshole Yeah Now was this particular moment with the comedian Was it something different? No, I think subsequent, I'm not I don't want to name the person But subsequently there You know, I think there's

I've had enough evidence From other people in the business That it wasn't a one-off situation And that that person's known For a kind of a certain Misanthropic or malevolent attitude Who's the first person Who's the one person you were excited to meet and then realize, wow, they're better than I thought?

This is such a great. This is an amazing individual here. I'm so happy this person's kind. Well, I have to say, I was all, all the people that we had on extras were terrific. Ben Stiller and Serian McKenon and all those people, just, you know, I think when you, the thing that I was reassured by and what I was heartened by was when you meet people that you, admire and you just they're just fucking professionals you know what I mean you're in a work capacity and they just deliver and they're just they're good to work with they understand they get it they know their lines they're not they know and they're there to work and they're there to do the

thing and it's not about stariness or attitude or you know or power plays or I'm sure you've had it we've had that stuff but that I remember just you know that's exciting you know working with people that that you admire and just See, and learning from, like, I remember I worked, we did this movie with Ray Fines. Ooh. And Ray Fines, he's brilliant. But one thing I realized was like,

he's an utter pro, but what he also does, which is magnificent, is when you're shooting a scene with Rave, he gives you variations in every take, but they're never so varied that they couldn't all cut together. So you get in the editing room

and you've got all this nuance, but there's just shades of the same color. So you've got more angry and less angry and more funny and less funny. And you can just mold them all together in a hole. And I'm just like, wow whereas previously as an actor i'm just throwing everything out there like and then you get in the editing room you're like this doesn't make any this you know i'm at a 10 there i'm at a 5 in

in this bit and this doesn't work we have the make it we have the choose one right whereas rave just gave a such nuanced variety and i've ever since then i've tried to to learn from that i mean whether i've succeeded i do you do a lot of do you try to so do different takes you yeah exactly you do that's what i like to do just mix it up a little bit right but it's no good i think what i learned from rave was you can't you can't be wayward with it you can't be kind of outside the box. No, you've got a

kind of, it's all still got to work within that character's perimeter's right. Exactly. So I don't know where we got on to that. But anyway, just learning from that, admiring people and then learning from their skills, I find thrilling.

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you, you know, was your mom a nurse? She was a nursery nurse working with kids. A nursery nurse. Yeah. But she, she was mainly at home when I was growing up. I was more interested in doing comedy. I never thought of myself as an actor, but more as a, I guess maybe as a comic actor. I thought that would be appealing.

And that was in high school. even? Mm-hmm. And then after high school, what happened? I went to university where I studied film and literature, essentially to leisure pursuit. And while there, did more, did radio for the first time, did live stage work for the first time. I had that start. Do you remember your first time on stage?

Well, I'd done a school play in high school, and that had gone well. And I'd been well received. What would play? It wasn't. It was written by the teachers. Oh, yeah. And in one, I played a sort of comedy. the Reverend. I was judging a dance contest. It was set in the sort of 1950s. And I remember I had to read a list every night. I'd have to open this envelope and announce the winner of the contest. And so I, you know, I'm 14 or something when I did this. And so I, on the first night, I opened the envelope and I said, and the winner is two pints of milk, eggs, tampons. I'm sorry, that's my, that's my, that's a rosary list there. And, you know, when, when parents have been dragged along

to see a school play. If there's anything even resembling a joke, they're going to laugh at it, right? Because they can't believe their luck. So they went wild for this. I mean, it was pretty lame. So every night you mixed it up? Every night I mixed it up. And by the third night, the teacher who'd written the play, I think probably sort of only semi-seriously would kind of

where's merchant, he's changed the lines again. And I felt like I was this rebel. You know, someone who's always tried to fit in at school. Now I'm like the rock and roll kid. Did they tell you to stop it? They told me to stop it. And of course, that just encouraged me more. You'll never work in the school again. And I was just, that was my first taste of sort of both kind of, I guess, getting a laugh in what you might term up with an audience or in a professional capacity.

Did you find that people were responding to you at school differently? People would come up, you know, loved you as the comedy reverend. Right. Like this guy's funny. All right. You've seen it now. Right. Previously it's just classmates, but now 40 people have seen it.

And how many, what, isn't that amazing the fuel as a, as a youngster that you get when you get that, those laughs? Of course. And as a 14-year-old, that sort of like that acceptance, he's funny, he's got something. And you probably knew, I don't know what this is at that time. Right. But this is something. There's something inside here. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's a good feeling. I felt like that, too, when I was in high school and I did a play. I finally did something. And I was such a nervous wreck. And afterwards, you know, and I was played a funny role too. And I remember just the popular kid coming up and go, hey, you're pretty funny. And that was like, I was great. Not being me is good.

But it's funny, the compliments don't need to be very big. Hey, you were pretty funny. I'll take it. You were remotely funny. You were in the neighborhood of amusing. Oh, I'll take that. Hey, you almost made me laugh. Merchant.

Rob, do you ever do anything like that? You said, oh, people are accepting me. I'm good at something. You were a ball player, right? Baseball. I mean, I played sports a lot when I was younger and then got it. You know, Stephen hates sports. Well, I got into, like, art and stuff in high school.

Oh, yeah. He's a really good photographer. He shoots a lot of bands and stuff. moved away away from sports now you're 43 I'm 46 Rob's 29 has a kid wife oh good for you 30 you can figure it out he's 30 but I mean isn't that crazy could you imagine having a kid like back when you were 29 I can't imagine I'm a kid no do you think I'll ever have a kid maybe I don't want to say never but you like kids I like kids I never hung out with a lot of kids when I by the time I got to be an adult I've never spent a lot of time around kids I know that

sounds like I'm getting into creepy territory there but a minute ago when you met my dogs I felt like you almost hadn't met dogs before well i tell you it you like dogs but you're like okay hi there's your dog i can uncomfortable around smaller things things that are smaller than me you know noticeably smaller than me that are very low to the ground are not helpful to me i'm six foot seven that's a long way down so children animals it's a long way down uh you as a you know when you're in high school so i but with kids because i never had extended family like i didn't have loads of cousins and brothers and sisters right i never just spent time with With kids, so I just never, I, they always, so by the time I was an adult and kids were something you were supposed to want or not want, they just seemed so alien to me. And only recently since I had, my sister had kids and she has, I have a niece and nephew, then it starts to make sense. Oh, I see. I make sense. Uncle Stephen. Now, do you feel, Uncle Steve, do you, you don't like Stephen, do you? I don't mind. Either one's good. Does your mother call you Stephen? If she's angry at me. Okay. It's very easy. I'm not angry with you. Stephen. In here now.

So it's funny because I could see you as a dad I think I'd be good I think you'd be great I think you're very patient Yes I am Are you extremely patient Well it seems like when you work with Ricky Jervais I mean I feel like

He's not patient Right Am I right about that? I think that's fair to say Like I look at you and I think it worked Because the juxtaposition of you too Right Right

Right Did you find yourself being more patient When working with him I did and also I felt like that was a relationship that would constantly shift in terms of sort of who was the child and who was the adult because he has the patience of a child which I don't think he would deny and I'm much more kind of you know like you say paternal in the sense that all right let's just take a second

we'll just figure it out you know and but at the same time he was always very much the adult I think when it came to confidence you know like you say dealing with executives or dealing with the kind of the slings and arrows of being professionals in a tough business He could do that. He had the age on me and he could do that. So he constantly shifted, I think, the sort of dynamic. I feel like you're the kind of guy that if you lost your cool, if you got really upset with someone, you yelled at someone. Yeah.

Anybody who knows you would go, that's their fault. I didn't hear the conversation. But I guarantee it's not Steve's fault. But I'd like to think that was the case. There are occasions when I have lost my temper. What would make you lose your temper? I have a problem. It's normally in a professional capacity, and it's normally when someone screws up and doesn't take ownership of that. So they try to bullshit their way out of it. Blame someone else. That makes me, we all make mistakes, but I think taking ownership of that mistake. And I think that's what makes me, and I think probably sometimes if I'm stressed, if I'm stressed about something and then there's an incident like this, I think props up my tent. But I try to keep a lid on it.

think it's maturity too well it just doesn't help i don't think you you help by screaming and shouting but occasionally sometimes i will or i'll sort of bark you know i'll bark as it were you know what's a bark well you know that kind of can we just do it please oh yeah that kind of right everybody that's enough that's enough you don't need to really like the teacher the teacher just just sort of yeah i i kind of i don't get angry really i think a lot of times people think that i'm i'm just kind of a loud person sometimes you know my family was all out so I'll have relationships and I never really fight but I'll be like I don't know why it's why are you yelling I'm not yelling right this is my voice right get over here to my dog yeah you know I'm not

yelling at you I'm just talking like this right why do you think this is yelling does that sound yelling he sounds a little yelling see I'm sorry yeah but I can I know what you mean where you can you can you can just dial up a notch but because you're naturally a louder person it's not a person did you ever snap it Ricky you see fuck off already. No, I think the only times it would be things, he would get in a groove

where he was, particularly when he was working with Martin Freeman on the office, he would love to try and make Martin break during a scene and make him laugh during the scene and took great delight in that to try and make Martin,

who's a latter professional. Did you like watching it? And it was fun, but the problem was sometimes because I was on the other side of the camera, I'd be conscious the clock was ticking and the time was always against you as you know when you're shooting and he would not listen so sometimes i'd have i'd be have to

rick please you know what i mean i just have to kind of be the teacher to just keep him back just just fuck off for a minute just just just just just let's just yeah just let's just get back on track for a second and that would probably make him well of course that would make him enough and that would also encourage him more probably right i mean were you a drinker at all have you been a drinker well not to excess i mean you have a few drinks oh yeah sure you never been in trouble with alcohol or anything like that never really any problems you seem like you don't have many issues with that stuff no you never got into drugs no no i like i like you know i don't i don't disapprove drugs i like the idea of drugs right it seems cool i just never yeah i mean

i'm lucky in the sense i think that i'm not i don't i'm not someone who's had to self-medicate right you don't need any xanax to fall asleep when you have a stressful day the next day you don't really no no no no very rarely would i you can fall asleep like that yes i can't stay asleep necessarily how many hours do you get i get maybe six if I'm lucky six or seven that's it I can always fall asleep it's then I'll wake up I almost always wake up at 630 it's weird I've started taking screenshots of my of the clock because it's weird how whatever time I go to bed it's your body six 30 your body's telling you what's it telling me it's telling you go back to sleep 6 30 no I don't I don't fucking know I mean

I have a say well I have a puppy right now blanche so I I I've been waking up every because here's the thing she's in a crate right now at night I have to let her cry like a baby You're supposed to let them cry. Oh. Because if you go down, they're like, oh, look, he's coming back. So that will be the cyclical thing of going back and coddling the dog, whatever. So, uh, and I think, you know, I can't be more than like seven hours with the, with the kid downstairs. Without going and give it.

I got to let it out. I got to go let it outside. I, you know, see the piss all over itself. Yeah. So, you know, I kind of waking up early. And it's not easy. I'm, I like to sleep in. Are you someone, why did you bring up the question about alcohol?

Is this something you've had a struggle before? No, I've never really had problems with alcohol. I think I'm one of the, I'm more of a control freak. Okay. So I can't, you know, I could have a couple of drinks. I could, you know, I've done some lines of cocaine in my life. But you don't want to, you don't want to lose control. Yeah.

And I just like, also, I made a joke to you before, like, you know, cocaine, I get really congested. Oh, sure, sure. But you know what I mean? I have allergies. So, yeah. It sounds like such a Jew thing to say. I'm a Jew, by the way. Oh, you are?

Yeah. Oh, good for you. Rosen. Well, I said that. I don't go to temple. I was Bar Mitzvud. I'm a Jew by blood, I guess. Right.

Right. Are you a religion by blood? Is that right? I don't know how it works. How would that even work? Yes, I don't. Are you religious? No, I'm not religious.

Do you go to church? No. Do you believe in God? No. Are all your friends atheists? Not all of my friends, no. What kind of question is that? Are all your friends, atheists?

That's impossible. But also, it's the fact I've got to quickly run through and think, are they all atheists? Just running through my phone. I think he might be a god-botherer, I'm not sure. More importantly, do you want to be friends of people who believe God. You don't, but you don't care about it. I don't care. You don't care about who believes in whatever. I mean, I would struggle, I think, if it was someone who was so evangelized that like, like, you're going to go to hell for this. Yeah, you can't be. That's, that's too much.

But if someone who believes in something and their family goes to church and they're happy and they're good people, who cares? And your parents weren't religious growing up? No, not really. I mean, I used to go to sort of, uh, I used to go to church with my neighbors and then at some point I realized though I was only really going to church because at the end of church while the parents were all saying hi to each other the kids would go and we'd have a game of hide-and-seek and I realized I was really going for the hide-and-seek.

I was sitting through the prayers to get to the hide-and-seek and at some point I realized that didn't seem like a reason to go to church because I could play hide-and-seek. I don't know, you get more people to go to church if you started interacting, interactive. Hang around, it's going to be a hide-and-seek.

Go to church. I don't like church because the doughnuts after. When I was little. What kind of church did you go to? There's a donuts and coffee. So at a high school, what did you tell your parents? You're like, hey, I'm going to be a comedian. You knew you're going to be, I'm going to act.

This is what I'm going to do. Did they look at you like, fuck off? My parents were, they were more supportive. I think they thought probably it would be a bit of a phase. And I think all they ever said was make sure you have a good education and you have something to fall back on, right? Literature and that's what you're taking those. Yeah. And so it was actually more, I felt like more of my school teachers that thought that that was preposterous. Really?

I never felt that they thought that that was a viable. Why are you wasting your life? Why are you going that route? There's no money in it, right? Right. Well, I think certainly there was an assumption where I grew up that being in movies or on TV or anything else, that didn't happen to the likes of you. Going back to that idea that, you know, you used to see people that were stars or that people you admired. And they seemed like they were another breed of person who lived in another universe. Yeah. And the idea that you could be part of that was alien. And it wasn't sort of a criticism of you.

It was more just, that's like saying you're going to win the lottery. What are you talking about? You can't bank on that. Right. Right. You have to, you know, you have to do a job of work. But it's something innately you feel. It's not something you can describe to someone other than, I know you think I don't

look like the movie star. Like I didn't look like a movie star. I'm the shortest kid. You're the tallest kid. Right. We were kind of funny, and we're going to go do this. And I was in a small town in Indiana, and everybody thought the same. I'm not going to amount to shit.

If you ask anybody, will Michael Rosenbaum become, you know, will he work in Hollywood? First, who's Michael Rosenbaum? Secondly, they say, oh, wait a minute, that guy, no, what do you talk? There was just no way that was going to happen. So I understand when my dad said, what are you doing? I understand when people around me are like, you're not going to, why are you doing this? This is like, this is a one in a trillion. right i mean you know i couldn't become a doctor i wasn't that smart it doesn't seem that far off from

like a quarterback wanting to go play in the NFL yeah but they don't yeah but if you throw a football for four years in high school when you're like the best quarterback in the state then it's like makes sense but it's not like he does this play and he reads this uh like about quarter milk yeah yeah when he's making people laugh they're like oh he's going to be the next uh howie mandel right or uh right right that was the dream jim carrie yeah but i think it was also what i find odd is that I thought I could do it. Why did I think Howie Mandel? But I just think, why did I think I could do? You know, that's what's odd. As I say, my parents weren't unsupportive, but neither did they have any experience of show business. So they were sort of neutral on the matter, I think. So why on earth I had the sort of, because it's arrogant in a way, isn't it? To think I'm going to go on a stage and try and entertain or be amusing. I mean, it's a weird. It's a drug. That's what it is. What happened was when you said those lines that night and that audience responded, way they did it was a drug it felt so good that you had to get that feeling again you know what i mean

isn't that part of it you think and that you're like i like this i like the way i make people feel i like i think i'm funny i think i could do something with this i'm no one's like me right that's what i started to think well not a lot of people around me or like me so maybe i'm different maybe that's good maybe me i'm sure that's part of it i i was a fan of comedy in particular you know me my dad would watch comedy we watched old movies what you watch i was into bob hope old bob hope movies and laurel and hardy and all that kind of comedy dudley more love dudley more and peter cook you know so i was a fan first and i guess i would read a lot about those people and i guess maybe in reading about them i realized well they all had to start somewhere you know and maybe sort of understanding a bit about

the history of those things kind of made it seem more attainable maybe i don't know i i Yeah, just for some reason, I guess I'm sure that the desire to perform was part of it. But it wasn't just that because I also liked writing. You know, I liked the nuts and bolts of writing, which is a, it's a, that's not really about showing off writing. There's something else it worked there. It's about creating worlds, I think. And I used to draw comic books. And, you know, I think there's something about whether that's a sort of escape from something or a fantasy or maybe it's a control thing.

You're creating these worlds in which anything can play out as you choose it to, right? If real life doesn't quite play out, as you'd hope, in the things you write, you can shape it and control it. I don't know. So sitting in a room writing was something I enjoyed as well. But how did you get into the radio then? How did it all of a sudden, like, you know, because that's like, it's a different medium. You're doing comedy. I guess not.

I mean, I don't think I realized that there were sort of divisions as perhaps there are. And I think with radio, a friend at school was volunteering at this radio station for this little kind of kids radio project. and he dragged me along one time and again I went along and I did something funny I record a little funny bit and they liked it and I'm again it kind of oh great this is cool and then I kind of I liked radio because you know it I mean as you know with a podcast

you know we show up in your house and we sit here and we talk and we've generated something and it's much easier than anything which involves cameras or filming or which just involves way more people and it's more expensive and it's hard to edit and I mean I think now I mean the idea now of being a teenager and having a mobile phone in which you could basically shoot an entire movie

and cut it on your cell phone. I mean, I'd have died for that stuff when I was a kid. You think? Oh, I would have loved it. I was always trying to get my hands on video cameras. So you like technology. I liked the idea of it being able to make stuff.

Yeah, I think there's something special about that. There's a back and forth feeling of like it's too much. Everybody's videotaping you, the lack of freedom. It's always they're on you. Right. Every move you make. Everyone's listening. And it's just to the point where it's,

it's become, I don't want to preach, but it's, you know, we're obviously lazier. We don't engage as much as lack of connection. I mean, I don't dispute that. I just mean when I was a kid, the idea of being able to make stuff. To be able to pick up a phone and film a movie. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.

I'd have loved it. Did you use to film movies? Did you use to film little things? I did, but I just, the problem was, just the editing was what was problematic. You know, I did, it was easy enough to shoot, but how do you edit back in the days when you were shooting on kind of VHS tapes or on tape, you know, to cut that together. and make it look like a movie was really hard to do or to I would I mean I'd if I found someone who was at a college where they had editing equipment I begged them to

try and let me in and of course you'd maybe grab an hour here and there and you know if you ever editing something it takes forever yes so I think eventually maybe it when I was at university I managed to finally get access to it and we shot like a little gangster movie it was called the mark can you find that on iTunes you can't find that can you find that anywhere I can't find that anywhere would you like to help us find that you don't you don't want to see it is it that bad no it's fine it's fine it's a kind of it's it's it's one of those sort of sub tarentino you know is when everyone was watching tarentino it was a little edge funny gangstery and bad language and kind of cookie humor among the violence

the horrible violence right tell me about the day you met rickie the first time well i wanted to get into radio because i figured that that was a good way to make a living if you could become a DJ. That's what, three hours work a day. You play records, you talk. And then that'll give you all these other free time to do other stuff, do stand-up or write a project or whatever. So I thought radio seemed like a good way. And paid, you know, and I thought, oh, that seems like a good way of getting into the show business, business. And, or show business, as we call it. And then I read this thing in this magazine about how a new radio station was launching in London, playing alternative music and I just sent off

my resume and it turned out that Ricky Jervais was there and got a job there already and he called me up for an interview and we hit it off What was the interview like? I think he immediately took me to the pub immediately as of two in the afternoon

I went all the way to London for it and of course again I just assumed he was he was older than me about 10 years older than me he was a he had a job at a radio station and to me he was a professional you know wow this is a guy in the business. He's doing it. And of course, very quickly within the interview, he confessed, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You know, I've sweet talked my way into this job.

I need someone who's going to kind of basically cover my, cover my back, you know, and you seem to have a bit of radio experience because I'd done a lot of, you know, just internship and stuff at radio stations. So he hired me. And then I moved to London and how long did that last? What happened was the radio station, there was a lot of buildup to the launch of this station. And I was there with Ricky, we were kind of planning stuff. We were. weren't on air. We were behind the scenes, guys. And then the day before the station was about to launch with a big rock and roll fanfare, Princess Diana died. Nothing to do with us. It wasn't one of those merchant incidents. It wasn't the merchant bad luck. Merchant bad luck.

But consequently, as you can imagine, the whole country went into mourning and it was not a sort of celebratory rock and roll atmosphere into which to launch a radio station. And so the day that station launched, we had to just play somber music and lots and lots of songs that you couldn't play because they might be disrespectful. That's your first day? Yeah. I remember there was a radiohead song called Airbag, which they wouldn't let us play because she died in a car crash. And anyway, so for whatever reason, the station kind of, it launched to a bit of a whimper. And meanwhile, I had secretly applied for a job at the BBC as a trainee. And so I, I snuck off behind Ricky's back and did an interview. Actually, no, he knew about it. He gave me

permission. And I basically said to him, look, I've been offered this job at the BBC, and I turned it down initially because I was having so much fun working with Ricky. And then I realized, actually, that seems like an error because the BBC, going back to my parents saying, you know, make sure you get something to fall back on in case the show business doesn't work out. BBC, how do you turn? BBC is like, you know, exactly. Come on. Yeah. So I jumped ship and I joined the BBC and left Ricky in the lurch. Um, but then secretly behind the BBC's back, I would go back every Sunday and do a radio show with Ricky and I never used my name or got paid for it because I was sort of cheating on the BBC Really? Because they would have fired you? In theory, they could have done. You couldn't be on. So you

went back to work with Ricky. So he was by that point hosting a radio show. They'd realized how funny he was and then I was his sidekick on there. But I was sort of, I could never use my last name in case anyone heard and put two and two together. I just was known as Steve, I think. Just Steve. Now, were you guys doing stuff like obviously on the side like oh my god you really enjoyed each other right i mean you always wanted to hang out you were always making each other laugh yes you were always coming up with ideas this is what we should do did you feel like this is we have a future together there's something here i want to work with yes i know he's talented yes i definitely yes there was definitely a chemistry and that was something that only magnified as we did the radio show and i think we had a rapport very quickly

that i was very excited by that we both were you know and i think that became obvious quickly that we kind of were thinking along the same lines and, you know, and that's what you're always looking for in any kind of... And you were going back because you were enjoying this much more than the BBC. Well, that was the thing, as I remember, part of my role at the BBC, it was a trainee scheme. It was very actually, as I subsequently discovered, actually very prestigious and difficult to get on. So I was very lucky. But because I didn't really realize that initially was why I turned it down, then I subsequently realized, oh, this is actually something of a golden ticket because,

you know, Willy Wonka style, I get to kind of see how the factory, the chocolate factory, works, you know. And so it was really, it was a rate, it was really actually turned out to be a great asset. But part of my responsibilities would be, because I was essentially cheap labor, they'd go and send me on some show in the Midlands that I didn't want to see. And I'd be living in some cold flat, you know, and, and miserable. I didn't know anybody and I'd be doing some job I didn't like. And I'd call Ricky and he'd be sort of boating on Regents Park Lake at 2pm in the afternoon, you know. And I just think, what am I done? You know, how am I doing this down? But subsequently, he was fired from the radio station, as was I

for the radio show. Why were you fired? It got taken over by other people, and I think they just thought, why are we employing these people? And then, of course, once the magic of the office happened. How did that kind of happen? I mean, you've told the story a million times, I have, but like, I have. But, you know, it's, but that's why. I will Google it, but no, no, what happened was

while at the BBC, I was given a camera team for a day and told to make a little documentary as a, as a training exercise. Sure. And instead of doing a real little documentary, I did a fake one with Ricky and that was it and that sort of basically became the office so um we were off to the races really i mean i mean isn't that just a lucky thing that happened if you weren't supposed to do that if they didn't say hey this is what we want you to do that day but isn't it

crazy how when you then you start to rewind everything because if i hadn't seen that thing in the ad if you didn't go to sunday show to do with rickie at the BBC exactly or if i turned the BBC down and we hadn't i'd never joined it and therefore i'd never got this opportunity to do the short those lines in the play. If you didn't get the quarter of milk, you didn't get the labs. I mean, let's go back. Of course. You're nobody. You're not here right now. Right. Right. So everything happens for a reason. No, it doesn't. It's just random chance. Do you think it's just random chance? Well, that goes back to the atheism, doesn't it? I mean, random chance in the sense that we're all just, you know, bits of dust floating in the in the cosmos, that in sense of random chance. In terms of as much, in terms of whether any human has any agency, I was obviously trying to, you know,

to get into show business. So I was going out there trying to make it happen. The energy. I made some of my own luck, if you like, by putting myself in situations where these things could occur. If I had just simply sat in my home in my parents' house until I was 40, I'd have been really lucky to have wound up where I am.

Right. So I always think it's like an energy too. It's like if you know, I always say, you know, when I went to New York, I mean, call it silly. It said, you know, I want to meet Gary Oldman. I'm going to meet Gary Oldman. And the first week at a restaurant, I met Gary Oldman. I was like, this is the energy.

I met Gary Oldman, and we sat there and talked, and it was great. I said, I'm going to meet him right when I get to New York, and somehow I met him. And then I would start thinking. Did you seek him out, though? I mean, had you heard he might be in this restaurant? Well, no, I didn't seek him out, but no, one of my friends called me from Carmine's restaurant in New York. Right.

So again, you had made it know. Gary's here. Gary's at the restaurant. So I don't know. Maybe I didn't. Maybe that was just random. But I'm saying that because you were putting out there that you wanted to be oldman, someone made it happen for you.

Yeah. And that's the same with me. I was saying to people, I want to do comedy. I want to do a sitcom, I want to be involved in radio and comedy, and therefore, you know, what would you do right now? What would you be doing right now if you did, if you just decided not to be an actor? You'd be, uh, what would you do? If I was not in show business at all.

I think I'd like to have been a, um, like a university professor, like a, you know, you know, like an academic writing kind of books that no one really read. Really? I liked all that. Yeah, I liked researching and making notes. What books do you like that no one knows? Well, you know, obviously since I left university, I'm not reading kind of books about sort of, you know, Marxism as much as I was. Right.

But I used to like that, you know, where you got signed a project and you had to research in the library and make notes and develop an argument or a thesis or an idea. I couldn't do that. I loved all that. I was never into that. No, I liked that. That's a gift. And Ricky probably couldn't do that either. Well, again, I don't show he has the patience.

I mean, he was a smart man and he didn't. Exactly. I don't have the patience to do that. Right. or the intellect probably right right i think it's more patience like i think if you just really applied yourself to anything you really enjoy a lot of it is patience right but i couldn't be a doctor you think you could you think you could no because i don't think i understand science science i've always struggled with i understand history and the arts and literature and language but but science math

i don't i get confused with that do you love the entertainment industry do you really enjoy yeah oh yes i enjoy what i do enormously yes but all of the bullshit that's the people say about the entertainment history is true. I mean, like, well, for instance, you know, when people talk about the, the sort of cutthroat nature of, you know, Hollywood, I don't think anyone could deny that that's true. It's true, yeah. So all of the cliches are accurate. But I think all the joy of it is, that's the stuff that I think sort of slightly underrepresented is I think a lot of people assume that you do the things you do because you want to win awards or go on a red carpet. And maybe you do, Michael, good luck to you. But for me, I like the mechanics of it. You know, I like the mechanics of

sitting in a room and writing a project that's and working with people and figuring out and the execution yeah that's i like it's like building a jigsaw puzzle you don't care about awards at all i haven't won an award since about 2004 so you do it does bother you a little no it doesn't bother me but i i it only bothers me in the sense that i realized what currency it has which i never realized to get you your next job that's right the bigger job do you need does it ever occur to you that maybe you've done it like like if you look back you go wow i created a tremendously successful franchise a huge show that won a lot of awards that made me a lot of money that I could probably retire another show after that I'm a movie star I'm doing big movies now I'm working with big

directors I'm now being seen in a different light I mean it's a great career but like when does it become I've done enough unless it's just really fun and I have a hard time understanding how people maybe not you but some people they are always working and they can't stop working. And if they had the choice, if they had enough money to stop working, if you ask anybody in middle America, hey, you work at Alcoa, where I grew up in Indiana at this plant, 50 hours a week. And even if they like their job, somebody said, hey, you don't have to work anymore if you don't want it. Then no one's going to work. Obviously, this is different. We're very lucky to do what we do in making movies, but there's a lot of stress. There's a lot of things that come along

with it. Do you ever feel like I'm 43 right now? I'd like to be able to say that maybe when I'm 60, I just don't do anything? Or will you be always doing? doing something. I do always work. The things that I try to steer towards are the parts of this job that I enjoy the most. Like I say, working with other writers or creative people and sitting in a room and trying to crack a story or figure out jokes or whatever it might be, I find enormously enjoyable. I would do this as a hobby. I was drawing comic books as a kid. I liked it. I liked just doing that, the nuts and bolts of it. I like editing. I would sit there and edit a project. I love that. It's like, again, it's like a puzzle to be

solved. And so to me, why would I stop? Because I would only do this for free in my spare time anyway. Ooh, that's really well spoken. So that's how I feel about it. Now, the thing, the stuff that I don't enjoy so much is, as an actor, being, you know, traveling away from home and being kind of having to live in a hotel and that stuff, all of which seemed very exciting when I was a um when i was young and now as in my forties starts to feel tough and wearying and a bit lonely and so yeah so certainly there's and also i think there's an there's an attempt as i get into my forties to try and ease off a bit and make sure you spend time with friends and family and loved ones and you know and girlfriends and

so you look out for that you say hey you know what i'm working four months straight i'm trying to carve out that a couple weeks off yes i'm going to take a month you ever take a month off? Yes, but probably it just means I kind of take my foot off the gas. I'm probably still watering around. You can do that? You can do that? Yeah. Yeah. Don't you feel like people are just like you always have to be a part of something? Like you're getting a text even when you're on vacation.

Yeah. What about this? Well, that's the problem, isn't it with the modern technology? You can never escape. Yeah. In fact, the only thing I was pleasing as I was driving up to your house here, I noticed I lost the signal on my phone. You like that? And I thought, oh, great. No, it can get me. It's not my fault. So I like being on a plane on a, I, I like, transatlantic flight you don't you oh yeah transatlantic yeah but you know do you stay when you go cross country to new york do you get the Wi-Fi on yeah do you get on your phone so you can just kind of get a little bored I like a long drive though I like you know I like because you can't check

your phone so you get to listen to you know podcasts like your own or whatever are you listening to my podcast of course not but I um but I listen to podcasts like yours oh you will now you will now I get deep I'm sure I don't get that deep we know the same person yeah I think you live with her. She's, um, she's, yes,

she's living with me. Yes, we're a boyfriend girlfriend. You mean Marseille Monroe? Yeah, I let you say that. Yeah, we did a show together that she said,

she told me about that. Did she say she enjoyed working with me? She does, she chooses not to talk about you. She did. She just says, I don't want to talk about him. No,

she does. She did, she did enjoy working with it. Yes. Yeah. I was very happy to hear, you know, because she is one of my favorite people in the world.

Amazing. She's a, the heart of gold. I've never seen anyone. when we work together, I've never seen someone just come to set and just have so much good energy and make everyone feel good. That's, and beautiful, if I may say. Thank you. So when she said, yeah, you know, this was a while ago, she started dating you. And I was like, oh, my God, he's a great guy. I don't know if he likes me. I tried to make him laugh, but we did some roller coasters together,

but he was, I liked him. I'd like to confirm that I do like him. Oh, you do? Yeah. Oh, good, good. That's good. Yeah. You hear that, Rob? He likes me. Was that the sole reason? that you brought me here today just to confirm or deny you're done we're done yeah we're done what that was it we're done we're done thank you like me and this podcast is over no that was good and I'm glad you guys are together I mean are you one of those people that just you know you want to be old and gray with someone you like to stay with someone you've always been a monogamous sort of person you ever have you always been in relationships yeah pretty much you never were the guy that went out the clubs I don't see as I did I did but I never was I never felt at home there in that environment

I never felt like that suited me. I was never adept in those environments. Did you ever play the game? Did you ever go to the clubs and pick up a woman and hang out with her? Was hello ladies, autobiographical at all? I think that was probably closer to my experience. Was it dating?

Yeah, the sort of player in the club. I bet you were cool. I bet they liked you. But the problem I find with, I always found with nightclubs and things was if I have any strength, it is um talking and i just you never really talk in a club so loud i mean it was always so sort of and i used to look across a club and i'd see someone talking to someone else and they seem to be having a very intense conversation i thought wow what are they talking about and then

you realize actually that the all they're really they're just so where where do you work um i work last yeniga what where i'm not las yeniga what doing more oh i just i work at a bar part time yeah What bar? Oh, excuse me personally. Hey, John! What bar? How far? It's right down the street.

I have my cars outside. And it is, I mean... That's what it's like. So basically all that's happening is that good-looking people are meeting other good-looking people because they don't need language because you see a good-looking person. You're like, yeah, we're good-looking people, let's go. Whereas someone like me who's a more acquired taste visually, you know, I need to convince you that I have some kind of personality and I need silence.

I need a silent environment, which is why I loved libraries when I was. No wonder I was studying so much. I was in a library. Hey, do you come to the, do you come to, uh, to the biology section much? Uh, microfeesh. Yeah. Yeah. I'll meet you with the microfeche. Did you ever meet someone at the library and go out? Never. No. No. How dare they even consider, uh, interrupting your reading time? The idea, certainly through my teen years, the idea of going up to someone, to a stranger. and trying to strike up a conversation with the objective of dating them was madness to me. I just thought that seems crazy. Yes. Without some kind of introduction. I guess it like Jane Austen. Have you met Mr. Merchant? You know, I need some kind of, you know, some kind of introduction.

Was there an insecurity in terms of this person like me? Have you ever did you like where? Do they like me? Do they like me because I'm successful? Or B, do they, I mean, are they really attracted to me? Are they going to leave me? Did you ever have any abandonment issue? Did you ever have any, like, those fears?

Or were you always just really confident? No, that was what I was saying. I was never, no, I think I built confidence as I went on and as I had success. Because I think I didn't have lots of sort of self, I wasn't an agonized person. But I think I probably lacked a certain self-worth, or at least in terms of feeling desirable. You know what I mean? Sure. And I think career success bleeds into that.

You feel like a validity. you feel a certain, I think it helps self-worth. And then I think then that confidence that you gain from that, like you were saying about energy, you do then exude that back into the world. And I think, you know, I think you, when you're someone who grows up and you watch teen movies or you read that teen books,

and so much of it is about the kind of insular wallflower, right, who's just, when will they discover the real me? And then you realize, well, unless you present the real you to someone, how are they supposed to figure out what the girls are just supposed to, guess that because you're creepily staring at her from the other side of the room that you're really a poet i mean you're just like a creep and you realize at some point that oh you actually need to sell yourself in some way right and so i think once that dawned on me that oh actually

you need to present a version of yourself that's i'm going to be my charming self i'm going to be funny i'm going to say something witty right they're going to laugh then they're going to start liking me and then they're going to really yeah see how romantic i can be there you exactly do you do you ever get any deal with any anxiety or anything like that? Not anxiety in the sort of medical sense. No, I mean, anxious because I've got to do a TV interview or something. Are you anxious? Is that what makes you anxious a little when you do interviews?

Not so much podcasts. Right. But anything where there's a live audience, I always get a little more jumpy. Right. Yeah. Do you think, you know, stand up, you've been a stand-up a long time. Do you really enjoy it? Does it still scary?

You don't like it? It doesn't scare me, but I don't enjoy it. What I've, this is so bizarre again? Again, you're talking about the kind of feeding off the thrill of the crowd or the attention or the, that first experience of being in that play. But that, whatever that buzz was, oh, people are laughing, isn't that great, has given way to, like I said before, I like the nuts and bolts of it. With stand-up, I'm fascinated by constructing the act and making it work and making the bits work. You mean, the mechanics of it, I find fascinating, but incredibly time-consuming and hard work and harder than almost any. anything because you have to go out in front of the audience and you're it's you know you

have to go out in the evenings you'd sit there anxiously waiting that's what I felt with butterflies in your stomach and it's just it's hard it is hard I saw you do stand up in Chicago a couple of years ago and great both me and my wife your favorite stand-up comedian yeah shoot thank you I that was great that was I really enjoyed that but that was by the point at which I'd sort of built the act you know it's so that's the thing isn't it's like in the beginning how do I get them likable fun nail And then we go on to the storytelling Right

Like build it here And then go into like it's it is There's a craft There's an art Huge huge And I've really And I did stand up for the first time last year I went up like 50 times

And all the big places Well these nuts Rogan and Apatow and all these And I just felt like These guys have been doing it forever Right And I just started And it was terrifying

Yeah And they were doing it And they just knew exactly What they were doing Well or they gave the illusion They did Maybe I think so much a stand up

Which again you realize Is it's all about You have to be confident enough, perhaps like in dating, the audience feels reassured. If you, if you show nerves, they get nervous. Yeah. You know, it's like there's so many counterintuitive things in stand up. For instance, you know, when you get nervous, you tend to speak faster or gabble or you want to race to the next punchline because you want to get a laugh. But the skill is to slow down. You know, if you're nervous, if it's not quite working, you don't panic. You go, you slow down, you take a sip of

water. You're in control. That's so true, you know. I remember I'd have a drink on the stool. and I would I you know I remember just one time I sort of forgot what I was doing for it just lost my place yeah packed house to the comedy store yeah you know I'm feeling that like that heat on my face flush and flushing yep you know and I'm just like okay what do you do and it feels like it's eternity right that's right and everybody's looking at you and they're laughing and you think those laughs are going to start to go down because they're like is something wrong but it's not that much time and then you just kind of go over to the stool yeah you grab you your drink and you take the mic and you just put it and you let them hear the little ice cubes

flow around hit the sides of the plastic cup and then you take the drink of the and then you and then they're kind of laughing they're going oh what's he up to he's confident he's just taking a moment i just had forgotten but i'm like oh my god this so there's that there's definitely that there's a lot of just sheer technique that you have to learn isn't there yeah be saying on stage you're a funny person yeah right right i will talk about this i have just this feeling that people are going to see you in a completely different light and they already are in terms of your acting because i think you've like developed into a really good actor appreciate that thank you no i like i'm like going holy shit like i think your depth what they don't know yet i could see it i just have this feeling i've

been acting my whole life and i look at you and i could see you playing a role that just i would love that i appreciate that that means i think you could play really dark and it's so funny because he's like oh he's funny he's this is steve this is uh the laugh laughing but now you're getting a lot of roles like people are looking at you differently, right? And you enjoy that. Yeah, I just did this bit in this movie, The Girl in the Spider's Web. Right. I just saw the trailer for that.

More of a dramatic, another dramatic role after this movie I did Logan. Yeah. And yes, and I appreciate that. And I think it's tricky, isn't it? Because, you know, you'll speak to any agent or professional and they'll always say, yeah, every comedian wants to do drama and every drama person wants to do comedy. And so I understand it's a bit of a cliche. But I think it is just, as you said, a different muscle to exercise.

It's a different challenge. The one thing I have always tried to do is at least to keep trying to do something a bit different, you know, and not just recycle. That's how we started today. Right, right. You know, doing things different. You get bored, doing the same thing. Right. And so, uh, the drama stuff.

And it's a real challenge. It's really, it's hard. It's tough. But I think, you know, with you, I see someone who knows themselves pretty well. Right. Like you have like, you know, innately, you know who you are. Mm-hmm. I know my limitations.

You know your limitations. Which I think helps. You know, tell me about Jojo Rabbit. This is a movie I just did a part in, directed by Takeo Watiti, who's a terrific writer-director and performer. And he's obviously best known probably for that Thor Ragnarok movie, which he wrote and directed. Or what we do in the shadows. That's right. Terrific.

Yeah, I tested and didn't get the TV version. Just don't, come on, let it go. Let it go. But he's done a movie which is an adaptation of a book in which it's a very dark satirical comedy about a little boy during the 1940s who, joins the Hitler youth and his imaginary best friend is Hitler, played by Taika. And as I say, it's a very

sort of black comedy. That sounds brilliant. It's great and it's very ambitious. The tone is ambitious. What does that come out? I'm not sure when that comes out, but I just, I played a Gestapo officer. And that was great. And he's amazing. And I was acting opposite Sam Rockwell, who I adore.

Genius. Just a genius. And again, intimidated by just his brilliance. but lovely man and again you know when you meet someone like that you work with them and they're a nice person and they're encouraging and supportive

you just raise your game do you ever feel like you know when you're I mean you talk about a role you discuss it with the director but then when you go to do it and they say action and any of these movies or anything do you ever feel like

I didn't get it in the first one I didn't get it in the second one I'm figuring it out right now I don't know what the director wants I'm trying to understand it I'm oh shit am I going to be able to do this Yes. Oh, always, definitely. But certainly in the in the drama stuff, I feel that. Yeah, I feel a lot more at sea than I do in comedy. And what's usually the vibe, the feeling, the, the direction that you, you know, is it usually they want you to go further. They want you to go deeper. Always deeper. But I think the thing I've realized is, um, I've always, again, because I think I am quite secure myself, I'm, I always am happy to say to a director right off the bat, it's not. It's not. an ego channel it's not me playing an ego game with them you know it's me i'm i'll tell them straight

away whatever you need from me you know if you want to give me a line reading give me a line reading you know i love that i love because then i feel reassured because i think when you go when you go a miss and in any aspect of your life is when you don't admit your own weakness yeah you know the thing but the thing i you know the thing i dislike most about trump of all the many things and i'm sorry to get political you may be a big trump fan no the reason i dislike him and it's not even on often to do with politics it's because i don't talk about it's because i dislike there's a man who has never said he's made a mistake he has never publicly acknowledged that he's ever in error in business in politics in his private life he's just always it's

always someone else's fault or it didn't happen and I just think that I the idea of someone who can't take any ownership right over and how humbling how humble who is so perfect that they can but no what I'm saying is how humbling is it like as I've gotten older that my flaws I embrace and I say I'm sorry right I didn't do this right or I apologize for saying this to you or I did this and I it feels so much better as a human being for me yeah to just say I'm trying to be the best person I can be I'm trying to make the people that can't admit weakness they think they can't admit weakness because it's weak because it's weak but it's not it's strong it's strong to admit weakness and it's so bizarre to me that they people like Trump in their seven is or whatever haven't figured that out or are so neurotic as a insecure they can't well you've done a shitload of work you continue to work continue to amaze me uh lip sync battle is that over no that continues to roll on as a as a show yeah well i'm one of the best lip sinkers there are you've not done it yet no one's invited me i'm not a big star no one no one invites me to this fucking thing i'd kill it you'd be like ah

he was right one of the great lip sinkers oh my god i'll make it cool i'm naked in front of my bathroom every day so could i be naked on a uh it's got a family audience yeah i won't be naked Sure, I think he's probably best. I'll wear a suit. Here's some questions real quick for you. People always ask questions on the Instagram and the... What is Stephen's favorite Carl Pilkington memory at just the Bebes, Liam Beebe. Well, I think with Carl, it was, for those that don't know, we did this radio show.

As I mentioned, Ricky and I, and, you know, if you've been listening since the beginning of the podcast, you'll recall when we last left our heroes, they'd been fired from that radio station. Well, after the success of our TV stuff, they invited us back. And we returned as the conquering heroes. And we hosted a radio show. And that was where we were given a man to produce and press the buttons. And that guy was Carl Pilkington. And Carl, we thought, was just a guy, you know, just a tech guy and a producer guy. And we started asking him questions on air.

And lo and behold, it was a gold mine of brilliance. And I think my, so my fondest memory is the first moment we were talking about something on the air. And Carl was telling a story. And he said, blah, blah, blah. And the next door neighbors who kept. a horse in their house. Anyway, they'd gone away for the weekend. And we were like, what?

They kept a horse in the house. And he's like, yeah. Anyway, and he didn't realize that was the interesting part of the story. He just thought that was a bit of just, like, yeah, that's not a big deal. Yeah, that's not a big deal. And then we pursued whatever avenue that was and we found out by this crazy family with a horse in the house. And I think that was when we're like, oh, this guy's just going to, is just

incredible. Do you keep in touch? He was here in L.A.? I saw him just a couple weeks ago. Oh, you just think he's, does it make you smile right when you see him? He's just a sweet, man. Man, he's just a great man, a really great guy. Terrific, and I love him.

I guess in your age, not that you're old, but you like to just hang out. You like to work and hang out with people that you just adore or like who just enjoy. We're too old for this shit. Right. We got to enjoy people. People either help us, you know, work-wise and, you know, fulfill our dreams or people that are just, we're amused by them. Are good people, good heart. Absolutely.

At NeoStar 84, my question for Steam would be if you could choose another moment in history to reenact on drunk history. Did you play Lincoln twice? Lincoln twice? You're the only person. Yeah, right? Well, that's a tricky one, isn't it? Because, I mean, yeah, where in history? What an history?

I think for me as well, it's sort of, one of the reasons I don't like costume parties, or as we call it, in England, fancy dress, is I like, if I'm going to do a costume, I like it to be exact. So if I'm going to play a character of a movie, I want to look like the character in the movie. And the problem is when you're six foot seven,

you know, with beard and glasses, there aren't, if you think about it, there aren't that many people that you can pretend to be. Right. And so similarly with history, like I was frustrated

when I did Lincoln. In one of them, I had a, the beard wasn't quite right. You know, I had the mustache of the top lip and I felt like, I wasn't willing to shave it off

because I was being a diva, but at the same time, it wasn't appropriate. And so I got frustrated. Whenever I see a clip of that, I'm like, the beard's not right. And so I'm thinking,

was that your last time on? That was my last time on. And then I'm thinking, well, hang on, who in history could I play that you know what I mean I'm a good match for that I accurately could

I think you could well you're thin like me but uh I look at your facial hair maybe even though you could do a Teddy Roosevelt that would be yes that that makes more sense see I could see you because he was a big guy right or maybe um Colonel Saunders is he a historical figure but everybody's been doing him right that's true yeah they're a little too much but uh while Bill Hickok

sure he doesn't have glass It doesn't have, well, you don't have to have glasses, but you need glasses, but you can't see shit? Exactly. Now, what, can you see, when you take them off, can you see anything? Is it a blur? It's a blur. It's all a blur. It's a blur. Why don't you get contacts?

I just feel like at this point, A, glasses are my schick, and B, it seems very fiddly. You know, just putting contact lenses in my eyes. What about that? What's it called LASIC? That's what I meant. I'm just not, I'm nervous around lasers. I grew up watching James Bond movies in which lasers were very dangerous. They could cut through steel, a Goldfinger was going to kill Bond with the laser,

Why would I put that near my eyes? At moo. Dot Loves. Last question. Where's your favorite hangout in Bristol and what's so good about it? My favorite hangout in Bristol, that's my hometown. Geez, I don't really, yeah. I mean, when I visit there, I normally hang out with my relatives. So I guess my parents' conservatory, the sort of glass room on the back of their house.

Is that my favorite hangout in Bristol? It could be. Yeah. Or the library. The library. How do you say library? How do you say library in English? Library.

Library. Is it library? Yeah. I thought it was something. You say it funny. Library? How would you say librarian? Librarian.

It's the same thing. I thought they're Librarian. Librarian? No, it's not librarian. It's just librarian. Fuck's sake. All right. This has been a real treat, man.

I thank you for allowing to be inside of you today. Of course, you're always, as I said before, you're always welcome inside. Seldom do you find someone who has their shit together? Yep. You know, you love yourself? I, uh, I don't always say I love myself. But I think, you know, we get on. Yeah.

We get on okay. Sometimes you're like, hey, you're a good dude. Yeah. I like what you do. I do have a thing which, and this is, again, this sounds like a real, this sounds like something would, someone would say who has very low self-esteem. If I disappear off the place, planet, everyone will be fine. They'll be fine.

I would be fine. I would be very upset. I appreciate that, but you'd be fine. You'd get on fine without me. You know, you'd be like, oh, that guy's gone. Okay. And then you'd get on with your life. And I feel that most, I think, I think anybody thinks that.

Certainly, Rob. But I don't know. I think they're probably... Right. Yeah, but no one would miss Rob. But my point is... No, I would. I think there's some people who do think they are...

They're everything, right? Aren't there some people that believe they're the shit? They really love themselves? Don't you think so? Yes, I think there's a lot of people that really love themselves. You know, I think that you were always striving for that, right? We're always like, hey, I want to be a good human being. Eventually, I want to say, hey, you know, I'm a good person.

I try to be a good person every day. I mean, that's important. Do the right thing. Say the right thing. Try to help your fellow man. I mean, that's what you do, right? That's what we do. Try not to be an asshole.

Yeah. Yeah. I think ending it on that's pretty good. Try not to be an asshole. If there was a message for the world, it is try not to be an asshole. Much love. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you.

Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle.

A separate bucket for this addition that we're adding. $50,000. I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing, everybody. We're out of here. Stacky Benjamin's follow and listen on your favorite platform.