Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - KATEY SAGAL & KURT SUTTER: The Real Divas of SOA, Love Through Sobriety & Killing Peg Bundy!

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

Katey Sagal & Kurt Sutter (PIE, Sons of Anarchy) join us this week as (potentially) our first married couple to share their experience working together on the hit series Sons of Anarchy, finding love through sobriety, and fighting for marriage while giving grace to your partner at their lowest. Kurt talks about the creative inception of Sons of Anarchy, while Katey shares her gratitude for being able to get out of the comedic box that she was put into after the success of Married With Children. We also talk about the working relationship between a director and actor, Katey’s rockstar origins in Hollywood, and Kurt’s upcoming series The Abandons. Thank you to our sponsors: 🛍️ Shopify: https://shopify.com/inside __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou 👕 Inside Of You Merch: https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🤣 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod 🌐 Website: https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Ryan's here. Hi. Hi, Ryan. Hi, and Ryan. Hi, in. Thanks for joining us and supporting the podcast. If you never listened to this podcast before and you're here for Katie Segal and, yeah, and Kurt Sutter, you're beautiful.

Thanks for joining us. And if it's your first time, you enjoy this, then give us a listen. Subscribe. Follow us at Inside of You podcast on Instagram and Facebook at Inside of You pod on Twitter. uh if you go to my instagram at b michael rosenbaum you can follow me on link tree we've got cameos we've got uh cons that tom welling i from smallville are going to that you could join us and we have uh an event down to not even downtown in hollywood california at the bourbon room ryan you're going to be there i will be there yes the bourbon room we're doing a talkville live podcast it's a smallville night

we do a smallville nights with vip's before it's a little show and then we do a Q&A and stuff with the audience and show some videos and it's a lot of fun the wednesday may 22nd has been sold out may 21st not a lot of tickets left very few so may 21st in my link tree get tickets for that a lot of cons coming up smallville con our first time ever in new jersey october 5th is going to be great um little advertisement for my new product called that rosy's puppy fresh breath if you want your dogs to have good breath rosy's puppy fresh breath is a picture of me my doggy on there and it's a great product and you can get it on amazon so write a review uh appreciate you and uh a lot of other cool stuff i got my uh book children's book coming out later in the year

and um i hope you're all doing well taking care of yourself and you know go in therapy ryan you still in therapy i am i had one this morning had it go and went very well yeah do you feel like you're in a better place uh yeah with better help subtle ad yes yes yes i love i love like that it just helps it just helps when you talk to someone and you work through things it's uh it's proven um also if you want any um merch inside of you online store lexmas scripts ship keys autographed new tumblers if you go to sunspin.com you can get awesome band tumblers and hats and other stuff and uh it's all there there's a lot of great stuff so do you can also book the band sunspin dot com you can book the band we have a stage it coming up may 4th

Fourth, may the fourth be with you, 5 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. Come listen to the band. You get to listen to some songs. We give you shoutouts. We see all your messages right on the big screen in front of us. We play music. There's prizes, zooms, all that stuff. Go to sunspin.com for more information or stage it.com. And this conversation with Katie, Segal, and Kurt Sutter was, it wasn't what I was thinking. They were so incredible. open, weren't they? Yeah, they really were. It was really eye-opening. It was humbling. And, you know, I always admired Katie. And I admire her so much now, so much more now, after hearing her story and hearing just, you know, they have a new podcast. And it's great. Let's just get into it.

Let's get inside of Katie Segal and Kurt Sutter. It's my point of you. You're listening to inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. Inside of You is brought to you by Quince. I love quince, Ryan. I've told you this before. I got this awesome $60 cashmere sweater.

I wear it religiously. You can get all sorts of amazing, amazing clothing for such reasonable prices. Look, cooler. temps are rolling in. And as always, Quince is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last. From cashmere to denim to boots, the quality holds up and the price still blows me away. Quince has the kind of fall staples you'll wear nonstop, like super soft 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just 60 bucks. Yeah, I'm going to get you one of those, I think. I like to see

you in a cashmere. Maybe a different color so we don't look like twins. Their denim is durable and it fits right and their real leather jackets bring that clean, classic edge without the elevated price tag. And what makes Quince different? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen. So you get top-tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. These guys are for real. They have so much great stuff there that you just have to go to Quince. Q-U-I-N-C-E.

I'm telling you, you're going to love this place. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long-lasting staple. from Quince. Go to quince.com slash inside of you for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash inside of you. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash inside of you. It's awesome having you guys here.

And I didn't know what to expect. I never met you before. So I figured she's probably really reserved. me and quiet and not that you're not and i didn't know i just assumed you you know tough guy tats created a tough show uh you know you're probably uh unhinged i didn't know and now i walk in and immediately i'm like oh my god these guys are like regular folks regular folks absolutely we're actors remember yeah we uh we uh that's something i'm fascinated with in terms not just with because of the work we do but the like individual lore right what you expect yeah we yeah not to already you know

pumps uh something but on on the thing we're doing some of it is one of my questions is what is your book what do people expect when you walk into a room this is your podcast pie yeah like what do people expect when you walk into the room and how is that different than who you are do you lean into it do you have to correct it so you know the idea of what you expect you know like i'm just a fucking pussy you know are you i'm kind of a nerd i'm a cream puff i don't believe that he he is he really really oh yeah he's very this is why he writes so well for women i swear to god he writes women really well it's because i he does have a very soft strong female part I mean that's rare I can be a dick oh yeah sure you can totally but yeah we could talk about that

later too but so this this podcast because you know there's a lot of podcasts out there and well you know the thing is I always say when people say should I do a podcast I'm like why are you doing it are you doing it because you think you're going to make money are you doing it because you know oh I'm a celebrity or this and if that's their sort of answer then I'm like you know it's what do you Do you want something that you have, you're passionate about that you can talk to people about? For us, honestly, we, a little bit, like, which I'm sure is the hook for you, is, and we joke, like, we do no research, meaning we want to come in and get to know what, you know, where somebody came from, what manifests. On the fly. Yeah, like, what manifested the person that everybody knows.

And we're finding people like, we're like, oh, yeah, I want to get to know more about that person. So it's basically having a small dinner party with someone. Right. And not about what you do. We want to get to know. Yeah. That's the hook for us. That's what makes it fun.

Well, plus, because we are married and we have kids. And I think it's always interesting when you talk to people about, you know, what they brought from their childhood to know, how they're raising their children, how they're having a marriage, how they're, you know, what, you know. how are you fucked up and how in a way because we all are because we all are you know and how are you resolving that or how are you making friends with that or you know just sort of so it's really about you know family it's this family faith education hometowns neighborhoods uh nature and nurture all this stuff it's kind of like just going through it all yeah yeah yeah that's what we're discovered yes and we're just starting so we'll see what it we're we're turning into yeah well you wanted to do it so there's there's passion behind it we've talked

We've talked about it for years. Yeah, and we, it was sort of, you know, and of course it happened when we both got really busy, which is just the nature of how shit goes down. And you just sort of have to lean into that and go, all right, we'll figure it out, you know. Yeah. So we're trying. I like it. Husband, wife in the industry from different angles talking about life and all the shit.

And that's sort of what I get into. We have a loose format. We definitely have segments and format and our business. Our big selling point is at the end, we all eat pie. We have our guest to pick their favorite pie and then tell us why. It's their favorite pie. Like yesterday we did one and the guy said he doesn't like pie, so he brought what his husband likes. And then so we asked him, so what about cake?

Did you like cake? And he said yes. And then he kind of told us about making a cake out of a Duncan Heinz box. And that's what reminded him of his childhood. And so it became like one of the things. the most sentimental segment of the whole like hour and it was lovely it was lovely so yeah we're we're we're sure we'll stumble upon that kind of stuff as well you know you know i love it i love it i think it's well if you need a guest sometime you let me know you let me know man i think you're

already booked yeah i'll definitely do it all right look there's so many credits that you guys have and i can't mention all of them i mean i mean actually i can't mention all of them but i mean it's like you know merry with children in futurama and eight simple rules sons of anarchy dead to me It goes on and on. There's a lot of stuff. And so what I like to do is sort of like take a trip of how we sort of got there. And, you know, as a kid growing up, Kurt, were you the tough guy? Were you like, okay, Katie's already shaking her head?

No, I was not the tough guy. I was tough in that I had to be emotionally tough because I was morbidly obese growing up. Really? Yeah, yeah. I mean, to the point of like over 400 pounds by the time I was 19 years old. So I had to, and the backstory of that is three other podcasts. But the, so I had to be tough in that if I didn't have skin, I'd be done, right? If I didn't have thick skin, I'd be done.

And, you know, and, you know, we learn how to manipulate that skin. and and then you know I realized at one some point that I was never going to get laid so that's when that was your main focus it really was the motivator I would like to get laid so I would like I do not want people having to fear for their life if they're having sex with me was my so I so yeah that was a big motivator how long were you this heavy it was progressive I you know it's just like sort of I always say the you know the more life uh demanded of me the bigger I got. And then at some point, when I was trying to figure out who I was as a person, I realized

this was not the person I was supposed to be. A lot of people don't figure that out. No, man. And, you know, drugs and alcohol helped quite a bit in the initial transition. Take down? Take down, let's say. Like, I lost a lot of weight really quickly. Wait, from not?

From, you know, look, I have an obsessive brain and compulsivity, and I just flip the switch on that, right? So I went from, you know, the numbing out of food and chemicals to the control of the purge, if you will. Like the, let me, I'll be this, you know, and, you know, and all of those really bad life tools. And, but, you know, he got laid. I got laid and that was it the incentive yeah but uh you know and then the then the drugs and alcohol became its own little journey and uh did you have good parents growing up and were they supportive were they there they were very much product and i don't say this in uh sort of uh uh disin not dismissive or even to make excuses but they were very much of that generation the post

World War II, you know, my dad came from a big family. My mom came from a big family. Nobody talked about what was going on. Nobody talked about how they felt, you know, if you were a good provider, if you were kind, you know, and they had no real tools to deal with whatever stuff I had, right? So in, and I don't say this rhetorically, like they did the best they could but they truly did the best they could and um was it uh enough fuck no no yeah i went through enough therapy that i did this thing called EMDR yeah and i did it and i didn't think you know it's going to work i'm just not a good candidate and something happened and it clicked i've never been so emotional but by the end of it you know therapist was like what do you think

after all this yet you know i remember this yelling at me and you're stupid and this and and then it was unsolicited i just said i forgive them i forgive them and that's a huge component into healing and moving on because if you don't if you don't accept it and move on you're kind of just living in the past and you're thinking about oh well this happened to me and i'm a victim and i didn't always want to be you know the victim i just wanted it so it's tough well You, on the other hand, grew up with a family that was in the business, a successful family, that, you know, I always say, wow, that's, that's exciting. But twofold, longevity, being able to have a career that you've had is, I mean, you can get your foot in. You can get foot in the door, but to stay in and continue to do great work and push yourself that. But also, there was probably things missing that normal kids would have dealt with. Absolutely. Well, my family was in the business, but my, you know, my family, my father was a director. So I didn't see him much. This was in early days of episodic television. And so he was gone a lot. Yeah, it looked good from the outside. But it was definitely, you know, I have brothers and sisters. So I always have to tread lightly on what I say. Because it's interesting how everybody has a different perspective of their upbringing. For me, it felt really isolated. I felt, you know, even though I'm one of five, I sort of felt like we all had our own little areas. And, you know, there was a lot of, my mother wasn't well most of my life. My mother died very young and so did my dad. So, and in terms of getting me in the door, I didn't want to be an actor. So I was a musician. And that's what I was going to do. And my father, which I look back in hindsight now, he wanted to make sure I'd have health insurance. So he was a musician. So he was a musician. And that's what I was going to do. And my father, which I look back in hindsight now, he wanted to make sure I'd have health insurance. So he, so he was

got me a sag card by putting me in a couple of TV shows. What were they? I was in a, I was in a couple of episodes of Columbo. Wow. And then I was in a TV movie with Dean Stockwell called The Failing of Raymond, where I literally played, and I was really stoned at this time in my life. I was like 15, 16 years old smoking a lot of weed. So it was easy for me to, because I just played this like spaced out girl in a mental institution. But in hindsight, I realized, I think.

thought my father was always pushing me in a way that I didn't. I just wanted to play music. And I would say to him, no, I'm not going to be an actor. But now I look back and I think, oh, well, thank God he did that, you know, because that getting that card and getting in that door is really, it's major. That's a hard, hard move to get in. Did you, did you love acting once you started doing it more and more? You know, or was it always music first? Still to this day, do you think music still is kind of up there? Well, no, no, now I really love. being an actor, but I'm one of these that I learned on the job. You know, when I got my first series, which was a show with Mary Tyler Moore, I had no idea what I was doing. And I was so full of

shit, I just acted like I knew what I was doing. And, you know, I had come from, I had done, mostly I'd toured with bands all through my 20s. That's just what I did. And I made records. And then all of a sudden I was in a rock opera and then people from CBS wanted me to come. come in and read for a comedy. I thought it was a joke. I didn't know what was happening. So I'm just, I'm really able to be like a chameleon. A chameleon. Yes, I'm really, which is kind of like a character flaw and also a boon, you know, like a good thing. So I could sort of melt into what, I mean, now I love being an actor, but I remember when I was unmarried with children, I had a band and I would go play on the weekends. And I kept thinking like, oh, I got to keep my real gig because this is not

going to last. This is going to go. But didn't a lot of people start coming to the shows? To see Married with Children? To see Married with children. To my gigs? Yeah. I would get people to come.

But I was like, you know, I couldn't go on the road really at that point. So I was just like in Hollywood. I was just like, you know, you're too young to remember all this, but the- I'm 52 in July. Do you know when the Viper Room was the Central? No. Used to be called the Central. You called me out.

There you go. Do you remember club lingerie? I remember it. I remember the name. I remember club lingerie. Okay. So I used to play Madame Wong's. Do you remember Madame Wong's?

No, see, uh, Blue Lagoon. I remember the movie, the Blue Lagoon. No, no, there was a club in the Marina and the Marina. No, it was really like, you know, it was kind of the 80s rock, L.A. punk rock scene. And so I was sort of, you know, in my paper mini dress rocking it. You were a rock star. Well, I wanted to be.

I really did. But, you know, my path was more, you know, we're both in recovery. So I don't know if you know that. No. Drugs and alcohol really kind of took me down the dark path in my 20s. Wow. How long have you been sober? 37 years.

What year was that when you? 1986. 1986. Now, when did Marywood Children come out? 1986. I got, I was four months sober when I got that gig. If you weren't sober, would you've gotten that gig? Probably not.

No. I don't know. Or would you have survived that gig on that gig. Well, I wouldn't have survived. I remember going to my first day on the show and I was in recovery and I was in recovery and I don't know if you know anything about it, but, you know, a lot of it is about humility and honesty and, you know, like not holding secrets anymore. I was a very secretive alcoholic. And so my sponsor, I remember my first day of work, she said, I said, I'm terrified.

She said, well, go tell somebody you're sober. I said, what are you fucking kidding? I'm going to walk into these people, I don't know. And I did it. And I introduced myself. And within two people, the casting director was also sober. And so I instantly felt like, okay, I'm safe. It's okay, because I needed support. Wow. Yeah, it was pretty wild. So it was a lot of new things at one time.

Is it hard to stay sober? Or as the years go on, it just gets easier and easier because it... This is what I'll say. Does alcohol, do alcohol and drugs speak to me? Can I be around them? Yes. Do they speak to me?

Like, I'm going to drink them? No. Every once in a while, if I'm cooking with something, I'll have to, I'll throw it down the drain real quick because I just don't, you know, it's, you know, alcoholism, we could have a whole podcast about this. Sure. Yeah, I know. Is it lives in the brain. It's a way of thinking. It's a way of perceiving. And so, yeah, that needs constant sort of spiritual solution, I'll call it. Did you guys meet when you were sober as well? Yeah, it's interesting. We both got, she's, six years older and we're five and a half years older and we both got sober at the same age. I like how you correct yourself. Well, because I remind him. Yeah, she reminds you five and a half.

Five and a half because I'd hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like he said nine. Yeah. But he has at times. Sometimes he'll say, sometimes he'll bullshit go. Yeah, she's 10 years older than me. Oh, no, dude. We got sober at the same age just, you know, different years. Six years apart. So we, um, uh, uh, but, um, uh, uh, but, You have like 31 of 31. Yeah. But we, yeah, we met at a 12-step room and, but that's where you met. We met. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it love at first sight? No. I did not ask her out. It was before I had my first, my first gig, writing gig was on the shield.

And I was a struggling artist. And I knew, you know, who she was. And I thought, I'm not going to fucking ask her out without a job. So, and then, so I waited, and then I got a gig, and I felt like, all right, I have, I can say, here was my goal as an artist. And I don't know if you had this experience coming up as an actor. I just wanted to, when somebody asked me what I did, I just wanted to be able to answer them in one sentence. That was my goal. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I do.

So, like, you're not quite, this is what I do, but this is what I want. Like, I could just say, I'm a writer. and and you were and I was and then I felt like all right now I can now I can say hi and it was one of my he was my I've been married a couple times before so this is my third go round and I had just gone through a divorce and I had two little kids and top of my list was you have to be employed so when he called me you out the first time no no no when he called me up and I said and it was one of my first questions was like well what do you do you know what do and he said he was a writer I was like, shoo, man.

Because he looked really like, he was super buff and he looked like a trainer or something. I thought, oh, man, this guy is, I hope he works out all the time and, you know. Yeah, I don't think you would have gotten out with it if I said. You were a trainer? I don't know.

And so you went out and was it there? There was a big spark? Well, for me, there was. I think so. I kissed him first, he always says. What? Yeah. Women never do that.

I did. Well, he went in for like a little, You know, and I was just, you know, on it. Tongue. Tongue. And, but what I did take with me on my first date with him, on our first coffee date, I took my sponsor with me because I had such a bad picker. I had just really, I was like the queen of bad boys.

So you were really. Oh my God. Did I love, first of all, I'd never gone out with anyone that wasn't a musician. So I did not understand like what this is about. That's how I related, you know. And, um, I mean, I mean, I don't want to say that. I've had beautiful men in my life.

They were just all a little like, and so I brought my sponsor with me just to make sure that I was, like, with an insane person. And within an hour, she, like, said, he's okay. He's all right. And she left. It was also good because she and her husband loved the shield.

So he was screened. I was pretty sure pretty soon, pretty quick. I liked everything about him. How long have you been married? We've been together almost 24 years. 24 years. And you're still touching it. I love him. I love him. We've had our shit. You don't stay together. We don't marry for 20. We're married to almost 20 years. And you go through shit. Yeah, we've hit the rocks a few times. Yeah, we have. What usually is in the middle? What causes that? Is it, is it ego? Is it, is it stress? Is it something else?

I think it's a combination of external pressures. For me, it was I got a little bit lost in the pursuit of money, property, and prestige. And sort of lost, not to get hokey here, but I kind of lost my spiritual center, right? And things that were truly important started to slide further and further and further down the list. And then when that starts to happen, your, you know, your esteem, I mean, your sense of self, your esteem is out the window. And then it's all self-sabotage from there on. Wow. And then, you know, and then I hit a bottom.

And, you know, one of the best things I think that ever happened to me. And he's a really, and always was a friend and continues to be a good friend and even probably a better friend now, John Langreff. You know, I had lunch with John a couple, about a month ago, but I always, you know, it took a minute because, but I ultimately, that departure from Fox slash Disney was a bottom for me. Do you know about that? Was that the Mayans? Yeah, there was the Mayans. And I had a step, I had a step away from my house. So the spinoff of Sons of Banner, your own show.

Yeah, I had to step away from. And, and it was. I thank him for it because it was like I it had to show up in some other area that where I could go oh shit that can happen and then it allowed me to sort of surrender a bit so I can go oh what else what else am I doing here that is not working that is destructive that is hurting other people and you know and it was man it was a it was a really uncomfortable pandemic yeah but a beautiful one in that everything got taken off the table work um uh we were good by the pandemic yeah no but i mean we were fine a rough match of like distance

distance distance but even for me the idea that everything got taken off the table and it was just me my my greater sense of self and and and awareness and all my primary relationships And it was like, all right, how do I do this? I can either run away from it or I can roll up my sleeves and do some work. And, you know, and I think that's when I, that's when we, I believe, cross that line back to found each other again, if that makes sense. Wow. And that's where, you know, that hits deep, what you just said, because I understand it completely. And it's one of those things where you lose sight of the things that you know are important with something that isn't that important.

And sometimes I think what happens to hit rock bottom or to cause change in a person, and I've had that is why I'm saying this. When you do something that you cause, when you're responsible, it's just the worst feeling. ever your ego shattered everything shattered and you could have had something beautiful whether it's now a relationship or a show or whatever is and the fact that you cause this it's just destructive right right no the wreckage is yeah i mean that's what recovery is but in hindsight you learn yes it's like through that it's how you process it's what you do with when you fall down

that's it's what you do with it is really yeah so you guys survive that Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. I'm going to speak to you about something that's going to help you save money, period. It's Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. This is just a wonderful app. There's a lot of apps out there that really, you know, you have to do this and pay for and that.

But with Rocket Money, it's, they're saving you money. You're getting this app to save money. I don't know how many times that I've had these unwanted subscriptions that I thought I canceled or I forgot to, you know, the free trial ran out, Ryan. I know you did it. That's why you got rocket money. I did, yeah. And I also talked to a financial advisor recently and I said, I had rocket money. And they said, that's good.

This will help you keep track of your budget. See? It's only, we're only here to help folks. We're only trying to give you, you know, things that will help you. So Rocket Money really does that. Rocket Money shows you all your expenses in one place, including subscriptions you forgot about. If you see a subscription you no longer want, Rocket Money will help cancel it. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you.

The app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better deals. They'll even talk to the customer service so you don't have to. Yeah, because I don't want to. Press 1 now if you want to. Get alerts if your bills increase in price. If there's unusual activity in your accounts, if you're close to going over budget, and even when you're doing a good job, Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions. With members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features,

cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum in the service. so they know I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show. Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum.

Rocket Money. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. If you want to save money, then listen to me because I use this. Ryan uses this. So many people use Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel

your unwanted subscriptions. Crazy, right? How cool is that? Monitors your spending and helps lower. your bills so you can grow your savings and you know what's great it works it really works ryan rocket money will even try to negotiate lowering your bills for you the app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better deals they'll even

talk to customer service thank god so you don't have to um i don't know how many times we talk about this but like you know you got it and they helped you in so many ways and with these subscribers that you think are like, oh, it's a one month subscription for free and then you pay, well, we forget. We want to watch a show on some streamer and then we forget and now we owe $200 by the end of the year. They're there to make sure those things don't happen and they will save you money. You know, Rocket Money's five million members have saved a total of $500 million and canceled subscriptions with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Get alerts if your bills.

increase in price, if there's unusual activity in your accounts, if you're close to going over budget, and even when you're doing a good job. How doesn't everybody have Rocket Money? It's insane. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum in the survey so they know that I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show. Do you know, we had come from a period of working together and, you know, and I don't really know how I survived it.

I'm just not a quitter. I just, you know, really, you know, it's interesting when you're with somebody for a really long time. It's like you don't want to lose your individuality. So there was some part of me on some level that knew, oh, he's going through a whole bunch of shit. But this doesn't really have a lot to do with us. he just kind of thinks it has a lot to do with us. Right. I sort of knew, you know what, this is not who he is.

And I just told him that. I think I told him that in numerous occasions. Yeah. We kind of were. And I couldn't hear it. He couldn't really hear it. I couldn't hear it. I'm just like gum on your shoe, man.

It just didn't go away. Well, it's that you reach, and I don't know if you've had this experience in what you're talking about, but you reach that point where you realize. if I don't do the work now, I'm going to find myself in the same place with these same feelings, with a higher, with a bigger stack of wreckage, and be doing it all over again. And alone. And alone. And I realized that that's when I realized, oh, this really isn't about the two of us.

It's my stuff in tandem with being married, being in a community. Like, it was bigger than, you know, the solution was not fixing the marriage. The solution was me figuring out what's getting in the way, how I'm disconnecting. And then, then I can figure out if the marriage is working. Right. You know, like before that, you know, we can't make decisions based on how you're feeling in the situation because back of the catastrophe. Well, he also had a very high rocket to success.

I mean, it was like when I met him, he was. like story editor on the shield and within five years he's got his own show and it became it was like my you know my my sort of success has been you know slowly up the ladder doing the thing the thing the thing so well you had well yes yes it never felt like you know i'm going from here to there it just really you know so i'm just so it was kind of an interesting thing to observe that that became so I come from this so this was never like

so like shiny and you know I just came from really hardworking people that you know this you know if you if you live with a director you see like they're exhausted all the time and the only time I ever really liked my dad

is when I went to the set I was like oh that's kind of cool he's a happy guy he's nice to everybody else everybody loves him you know that's funny because my dad is so good with other people and even, like, friends of mine.

But I never, like, I'm like, what the fuck? Right, right, right. Hey, dad. Hey, I'm right here. I'm your son. Yeah. Can I change my name and put a hat on and have you? Oh, man, that happens to be all the time now.

Like, I'll run into people all over town that knew my dad. And they say the most glowing things about him. Like, he was the old school kind of where the ascot director and loved actors and blah, blah, blah. And you're just like, wow, that's, that's, that's. I mean, I'm happy to hear that, but that's not who I knew. That's not what you remember. Not really. On Sons of Anarchy, you know, a lot of times you might think, wow, put my wife in this.

You know, you know, and but I read that you said or maybe I saw an interview or something he was like, people are going to know, we're going to show them what you're really made of. Yeah. I mean, I knew what she was capable of doing. It's interesting because we. When I pitched this idea, the art and John Linson were the producers on it, and they, you know, they loved the idea of Katie being in it. But the original conceit was more of a soprano's idea that Gemma would be the, you know, a little bit in the shadows, right? would be more like the, the mother character, the Nancy Marchant character.

And it was really John Langraf who said, no, we want a trilogy. You know, we really, like if we're playing the Hamlet theme, which I pitched, what I wanted to do, we need, you know, our, you know, we need our Gertrude, our Claudius, and our Hamlet. and he and that's when you know they pulled their front and center in and you know in the rewrites of the pilot you know but that was not me it was way different it was a little part and it became a bigger part yeah because the network wanted it yeah so that and they saw it like they saw if we're really going to if we're really going to play this theme if we're going to lean into it then let's have this strong and you know some of it for john was creative some of it was knowing

demographics and and in doing the numbers in his head and bupah and so but ultimately it became those characters those relationships you know um became the most interesting for me the chart the jack's um uh tara and the jack's jemma stuff was ultimately the most interesting and compelling to write yeah and it really you know i had had a lot of trouble getting out of that comedy box. Sure. You know, I, for, you know, that's, that's what she does. Yeah, she's Peg Bundy.

I mean, I would have to go in rooms and show people that I didn't look that way. Right. When I did Lost, I had to go in like three times for a little recurring arc. And so when Kurt wrote me that role, it was like, wow, finally, you know, I'm going to get to, because I don't even think I'm funny. I'm funny if you give me something funny to say, but I think I'm way more dramatic than funny. I just don't really That's so funny for you to say

Well, it's wild I mean Yeah, you're always hilarious But I'm hilarious But I think I can do comedy Because of music I think it's just You know, I hear the time

I hear rhythm So that's kind of Where that I think And also a lot of dramatic actors Can do comedy It's easier I think so Yeah

Sometimes that happens And sometimes not And sometimes not Sometimes not But I was given a shot To do it And I thought it was You know

He used to say We're gonna kill Peg Bundy It's like okay did you when you say that i mean obviously you had a great experience on that show a great experience the best experience and i love talking about her and i don't i have no but you know i might not have felt that way if i couldn't have gotten out of that box you know because i think there's a lot of people that don't you know that cannot get out of the whatever if you're in somebody's living room for 11 years you know they do not want to buy you as something else it's hard i mean look

at Woody Harrelson. Yeah, yeah. He's doing okay. Yeah, he's doing all right. I think he's doing all right. He's doing all right. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. By the way, for the audition for Marywood Children, you really wore that hair piece? No, but I dolled her up. She was written as like a slouch kind of rosanish. And I went in, you know, dolled up. I just went in like looking a little bit hot and put my hair up and glasses. And they liked it. They liked the take. So they let her be that way. She was not designed that way. Were you ever insulted or ever like you guys have crossed the line on this line? This is too much. We can't say this. You know, I was never able. Yeah, some people, I wasn't because I knew that my job as an actor. It wasn't my point of view. I'm just

there to interpret what the writers are saying. Right. So no, am I a sexist as, you know, that show portrayed women? Do I feel that way? No, not at all. But people would always ask us these political questions about married with children. Do you think it's right that they're, I'm like, this is a It's not the show that's making, it's like, it's like Archie Bunker. Totally. And the whole point of it was to be funny. End of story. So I had no, I was fine with anything.

You know, it wasn't me. I was playing somebody else. Yeah. Do you still talk to the cast? Oh, yeah. Everybody. We're on a group chain. Well, Eddie and Christina and David and I are on a group chain.

In fact, we were just chatting yesterday, I do believe. That's great. We do. Back to Sons. I'm thinking of the heavyset kid back in, grade school you can say fat well i think it's i'm kidding but yeah i know you're saying yes but i you know it's like how does someone i guess maybe you dealt with bullies i don't know but you write these tough characters and these tatted out bike riding guys where the hell does that come

from there's creativity but there's also like how do you know about this shit well i think for me uh like i have to say i credit sean ryan for this like i have a very um it's not warped is not the right word but i have a i have a you know i i i am an absurdist right and i and i have an absurdist sense of drama and comedy and every potential pitch that any other executive or showrunner may have called security to come get me ended up being in the shield like like Sean saw like saw the raw potential of of who I was and then was allowed me to feed that into the shield to help the tone of that show and really create that world and I loved it like I you know it was just I could not believe I was getting paid to tell those stories and it just I found my voice on that show and And then, you know, it's funny, I do, a buddy of mine works with the Army, does PR, and I've done stuff at Fort Irwin, blah, blah, blah.

But I'm not a gun guy. I have a bit of an impulsivity issue, and I am not a kind of person. I'm not the person who should own a gun. And the reason, one of the reasons is, is because I write these worlds, and look, I love. I love motorcycles. I have a bunch of them. I came across country in my early 20s on a motorcycle. That part is very real and I love it. But everything else I write about, I might as well be writing about wizards and fairies, right? Because it's very much fiction to me. And it allows me some distance to look at it through a lens that perhaps is a bit more absurd and darkly comedic than perhaps if I was writing, if I was like wholly plugged into, that frame of mind or if that's might be a different show it might be a different show yeah

and then you do research you know i have i have i have i have a lot of friends with patches right and you do the research you immerse yourself in the world you nail down all the details so that the world is wholly authentic and then i can tell the bigger crazier more absurd stories because nobody doubts the world is it hard to sort of run a show write a show, your wife's in the show, and dealing with, you know, we all have egos. It can't be easy balancing it out and, you know, dealing with all that. Did you learn a lot from that? I did. It was, you know, I had some of that experience on the shield, but not really running

the show, like I ran the room a little bit. I was, I loved being on the shield. I stayed there till the end you know i i my last deal um on the shield was not for money it was for time so sean freed me up a little bit so i could begin in transitioning into writing um the the new show and i learned a lot from sean but you can't really teach anybody that only because so much of it is you know oh this happens now oh this happens now oh this happens now this happens now. And yeah, you have to, you know, the secret I've learned is really surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do. And there were a lot of big personalities on Sons. Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure, back to your point, it was definitely a motley

crew. And I would say the boys were the divas for sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. I would say that, you know. The women were fine. Charlie's foot most, Charlie would say to us, I love the days when I'm just with you and Maggie, because it was just, it was a little more, uh, chill. You know, everybody had their own thing. Kind of. Whether it's, I want to get the fuck out of here. Or something, just, you know, it was a little more. It wasn't, you know, the boys were they really did start thinking they were a motorcycle club. I mean, it was, it was wild.

They were into it. Oh, they were into it. And they were in it outside of work and inside of work. And it was. Were there fights ever? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here's the deal.

There was no, look, you know, like there's, you have the actors who have their stuff and you have to navigate around and and you know even as I move work on this new project it's I abandon band the abandon like I know you know you can you can lay as much track as you can you can prepare as best you can you can hire the best people you can get you know but I just I know people are people right and and I cannot and you just have to be able to roll with it to a certain extent and and uh and allow people to sort of be who they are and and then when it starts to undermine the bigger the bigger thing then perhaps you need intervention but i who's a great boss you know i i mean here's the truth i love actors i you know i am an actor i love i love being around actors

i i i love the collaboration process and as long as that's a two-way thing and i feel like that respect is coming my way as well as it's going their way then we're all golden right it's when you know it's when you feel like you you have somebody that perhaps is uh uh is disrespectful just they're doing it doing their own thing then it becomes difficult for everybody you know and i'm sure you've had that experience over time and sure you know it's uh it's challenging yeah can really get? Well, we dive into the twisted, the terrifying, and the true stories behind some of the world's most chilling crimes. Hi, I'm Ben. And I'm Nicole. Together we host Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast that unpacks real-life horrors one case at a time. With deep

research, dark storytelling, and the occasional drink to take the edge off, we're here to explore the Wicked and Wicked. We are Wicked and Grim. Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. do you think, let me ask you first, why do you think Sons of Anarchy was so popular? What was it that sucked people in? The family element. I think it was basically a family drama. And I think that the world Kurt created was unique and that you got a view into a world that you didn't, you know, there were tropes about the motorcycle world, you know, mostly funny, joky tropes about it. And so I think that the motorcycle world was almost second nature to the fact that it was character-driven.

It was about the emotional lives of these people and that they're really going through things, not just criminal activity, but actual what goes on in your lives. Right. That's what I think. Because more women, I mean, sure, there were tons of hot dudes on it, so lots of women love to watch it. But I think they also love the women in it. and sort of what that, you know, the picture that that drew.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think it's, you know, I'm amazed and still sometimes that people come up to me, whether, you know, their grandmothers or whatever, or young kids, or it's like my, you know, I love the show. I would watch it with my dad. I would watch it with my grandfather. And I realized that.

Mom's in the carpool lane. Yeah. like I realized that it was yes the the action the leather the motorcycles like all of that stuff was popcorn that people go who what's that but that ultimately it's what katie's talking about it was that you know it was that family dynamic it was that desperate search for who am I in my world and how do I redeem myself it's all stuff that people weren't aware perhaps Perhaps, not that there weren't, they weren't self-aware watching it, but that it was never preached. So it was, you know, there was never conversations about, you know, I have to redeem myself or who am I as a man.

But when you're able to touch lightly on that subject matter that perhaps other people are experiencing and may not have an outlet for, you, you're, there's a cathartic quality, I think that happens in, in. something that then is a fun ride it's like anything that you watch you know what do you relate to you know most of us like to you have to relate to something you have to relate to something and we laugh at ourselves or we we feel empathy you know we relate that whole people who live i guess vicariously through what we do you know there has to be some sort of hook that they you know are responding to yeah you know did you uh Were you shocked when you won a Golden Globe? Or did you expect it?

No, I did not expect it. In fact, I was sitting with Landgraf and his wife, and Allie kept saying to me right before the end, she goes, you're going to win, you're going to win. I'm just like, no, fucking way am I going to, I'm not going to win. And because I'd been nominated quite a few times before for married. So, you know, I used to go to the Golden Globes and my category would be first, and then I'd leave and I'd sit in the parking lot and watch all the famous people.

And it was, you know, it was fun. So, no, I didn't think. that at all. I was absolutely thrilled that it was acknowledged, that the show was acknowledged. You know, I felt like, it was great that it was, you know, in my hand. But I felt that it was really great. The show was acknowledged. When they said your name. Yeah. Do you just remember, was this an overwhelming feeling that came over you or how did it just, I want to know, like, how it felt. I'm obviously great. Yeah. It felt pretty great. It felt great. And then I don't I don't know if you've been to the, have you been to the Golden Globes?

One time, I went. You kind of have to weave your way through all the movie stars. You know, the TV, you're in the shitty. You're in the shitty seats. So you're weaving your way through all the movie stars. Exactly. Where the fuckish? Excuse me, pardon me.

And then by the time I got up there, they like, I think they pushed that button pretty quick about get her out of there. And so I, uh, but no, it was absolutely, the most fun was going to the party afterwards. Yeah, yeah. And you're walking around. It was like a key to any conversation. And people would, you know, people I wanted to, like my daughter was with us. and she wanted to talk to, who was it?

It was, I can't remember. It was somebody that, you know, we don't know. We don't know anybody, really. So I could talk, we could talk to anybody with the Golden Globe. That's true. Helen Marin acted like she knew me. I was like, wow. Yeah.

Yeah. That was the best part. That was fun. Tarantino. Yeah, it was like, great. I'm so excited. Yeah. That's awesome.

What do you look for in an actor when you're meeting with them? And I'm going to ask you what you, what you, what you look for in a director so what is it that when an actor walks into a room what's the first thing is it right away he's right for the part that's the right that i hope he can act yeah definitely some of it is knowing the presence that the character has and and can this actor does he carry it at or does he bring something else that can change you know um and then and then some of it is just understanding their, not process, but look, especially if it's series, you know, these are people that you potentially are going to be in bed with for a minute.

And you just kind of want to make sure they're not a dick, you know, so some of it is just vetting out the poison as much, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I've, I've, you know, over the years, I've not hired people that maybe, were better or right more right or whatever because i just knew that it wasn't smart and i won't mention names but uh but yes but absolutely the immediate sense of like when nick robinson look uh it was a i think it was a zoom yeah it was it was a video tape i saw i i'd seen his i'd seen a couple episodes made i saw some uh footage and then had a zoom call with him and i just physically he was right

but he he has this um almost homespun is an overused and word but he he just he's a he feels like somebody's son if that makes sense and uh just had like a very nurturing presence that you can you can't manifest through a choice right that he just has that that quality that I was like that's who this guy is right and then and then you take that and then what does that look like when it's overburdened and angry right and so you you for me that's some of it and and instinctively no matter how good of a take it is or how good of an actor the actor is if there's a if there's a quality that I think just innately flies in the face of who the character is that's a tough decision too because you you know it's you can't

really say it's not like oh it was bad you just there's just a sense of like that person's not right you know are both two of our our oldest kids are both actors and when in that process you try to explain to them that you have to treat every audition like it's part of the job. So the thing you're auditioning for today isn't for the job that's there for, it's for the audition three months from now that has, do you know what I mean? So that it is part of your job so you can detach a little bit because there are so many things that you do not know about how they're making this choice. Right. And by the way, quickly, have you ever said this wasn't a great audition? They didn't know their lines. But fuck it. That's the part. That's the person.

Oh, yeah. Like if somebody came in and they had a, you know, you can tell when someone's nervous or they're having, you know. And I have a great casting director, Wendy O'Brien. And Wendy has a great sense of that too and can relax people. And usually you'll get a third or fourth read. And you'll like, like, okay, there it is. There is. All right. So, director, what do you look for in a director? Because I'm sure you've worked with some directors that aren't great. Well, first of all, they have to want me. How?

Well, no, no, no. Not in that way. But, you know, it's interesting. People think, well, you're a journeyman actor like I am. I'm not like, you know, I don't get tons of people saying, would you like to work with blah, blah, blah. And, you know, that's just really not. I mean, it's sort of a misconception that people have that about me.

I'm sure you, too, like, oh, there's just offers it all the time. Oh, yeah. Right? Uh-uh. Why aren't you doing that? Why are you in that series? That's exactly right. I would be perfect.

Exactly. So. Why aren't you dating Nicole Kidman? I don't know. I'll find her number. I'll ask her why. Shut the fun. It's so true.

So, you know, it's not like I have a lot of director meetings where I'm figuring out if I want to work with that director. I'm like, you know, do you like me? Do we, you know, so my experience with directors is more like when I'm there. Yeah, exactly. Right? So, um, I really love actors that are also directors. Like I love to work with Adam Arkin because he is an actor. He's a really great director. I love working with Kurt. Kurt is an actor who's also a really great director. So I like directors that have that experience. Paris. Yeah. So that, um, you know, because my father, the director, went to acting school. He was going to be an actor.

And so, but he couldn't stop laughing on stage. He was like, he just couldn't keep it together. He was like, Jimmy, what's his name? Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, couldn't stop laughing. So he became a, but I, so I like directors like that. Like, I remember working with one director. I'm not going to say who it was, but he had no experience speaking to an actor.

And I remember taking him aside, he was a friend of ours. And I said, you know, he was just starting out. I said, you know, you should take some acting classes. because it will help you to understand a better way to communicate with us because it's just so helpful to have that. That's my experience. Yeah, the best directors to me are the ones that don't give you notes after the first fucking take because the first take is like the first take.

Give me the second one and then give me notes. But just I just, you know, let me, you know, I'm just feeling this now. Right, right. And also they don't come up to you with a ton of notes. they just at one if you they have five notes give the actor to say hey when you deliver this line i want it to be more emotional like it's hard to say and then at the end before you walk out i want you to stop and i want you turn that's enough do the take then we got that it's it's if they over they think they could overwhelm you because you're just so smart that you could do everything sometimes you can

you program you're like okay okay but i want to be more natural and easy flowing and like not thinking about 20 things. Oh, absolutely. So that's what I look for. Like we just interviewed Paris Sparkley, who's a great director, and his whole thing is really simple. It's just to keep it simple.

It's to really facilitate the actor and what they're doing and to not, not overdue. You know, you're there to be of support. I mean, I have that experience with music producers. You know, the best music producers aren't telling you, you know, what knows. to hit where to hit it. They're just kind of making the environment safe so that you can feel okay making a mistake or, you know, just really trying something and suck. You know what I mean? There's all that. So it's kind of, it's a big job directing. Also, if you have a rapport with someone I've had directors to say, Rosenbaum, just suck less. Right. Yeah. I got. I know what you're

talking about. I got it. I got it. Right. Right. Less is more. Rosenbaum, listen. Oh, yeah. Okay. The number one thing in the fucking acting world. He used to always say to me, Kurt would say to me, you know, a little of you goes a very long way. In other words, take it down. You know what it means? Just, you know, so I understood that. Because you had that strength to just exude. You need someone sometimes to do it.

Well, he would always say to me, you know, if the actor is feeling like, oh, I just got that great take and I'm so, you know, the actor feels like they've really hit it. You know, but, you know, the editor and the director are like, you know what? that, you know, I don't want to see you cry. I want them to cry. You know, I don't want you to be over-emotional. What we're doing is telling the story that it affects the audience, you know. I say to the actor, which take did you really like? And when they tell me what take, I mark it and I never use it.

I don't blame. I'm kidding. No, no, it's true. There's a lot of truth to that because in their head, they're like, I got there. But by the way, you weren't as present because you're thinking of how great that take was right i like to go i don't know what the fuck i did is that all right all right exactly you know sometimes it's just not being like letting go right absolutely this is so easy

they're so open it was effortless i really believe you have something special here and i think if it's anything like this conversation we just had it's going to be gangbusters so that's very just continue to do what you love and talk about what you want to talk about and people people will come to the party thanks michael so nice so lovely thank you thanks for coming to my house. Thanks for the coffee. This is great. Thanks for allowing me to be inside of you.

That's what I used to say. I don't say much anymore. Thank you for being here, guys. They were really good. They were awesome. They were. They were really good. Again, I was so like, I couldn't believe how chill they were.

It was like, you know, I was nervous at first. I was like, oh, they're going to be difficult. I don't know why I thought that. I just felt, you know, it's a creator. It's a big actress. You never know what you're going to get completely. the opposite. I think for the most part, like, since they're willing to come out here to talk to you,

like to your house, that's usually a good sign. That's usually a good sign. You never know. And they walk in the door, they get greeted by the dogs. Yes. And you can usually tell right, right then. And it's usually pretty good. Yeah.

You're right. You're right. But I was a little nervous, but they were great. So thank you. Thank you guys for coming out. And again, if you like the podcast, follow us, write a review, subscribe. All that stuff. All the information is there.

My Instagram at the Michael Rosenbaum for all that stuff. And couldn't do this without the top tier patrons. Join patreon.com slash inside of you become a top tier patient or just a patron and support the podcast to keep it going with a little podcast that could. And with your support, we keep going and we get some really great interviews. And thank you. Here we go. Top tiers. Nancy D.

Leah and Kristen, little Lisa. you Kiko all these people still here support me guys what is up thank you Jill E Brian H Nico P Robert B Jason W Sophie M-Raj C Jennifer N Stacey L Jemal F Janelle B

Mike E Eldon Supremo 99 more Next page Yeah Ryan Come on read them out baby San Diego M Leanne P Maddie S Belinda and Dave H Dave H

Brad D Ray H H Talia M. Betsy D. Ranan C. Corey K. Devnex and Michelle A. Jeremy C. Mr. M. Eugen and Leah M. S. Eric H. Chris, Oracle, Amanda R, William K, Kevin E, Stephanie K, Jorel, Jammin, Jay, Leanne J, Luna, Mike F, Stone, H, Brian L, Jules, M, Jessica B. Kyle F, Caley, A, Charlene A, Brian A, Marion Louise, L, Romeo, the band, Frank B, Gen T, April, R, Randy S, Rachel D, Jen, Carolina, Girl, Nick W, Stephanie and Evan, Charlene A, Don G, Jenny B, John, Jennifer R, Tina E. Yeah, by the way, when you mess up, you can just keep going. have to take it back i just felt like i wanted to take it back i just i did if i mess up i just go like watch

n c tracy you care and everyone knows i messed tasha s keith b waffles heather and gregg ellie k elizabeth l ben b and pierc you guys make this podcast extra special thank you um i appreciate you from the hollywood hills in hollywood california i am michael rosenbaum i'm right too I'll wave to the camera. Thanks for joining us again. And as always, be good to yourself. I'll see you next week. Hi, I'm Joe Sal C. Hi, host of the Stackin'Vetjean podcast.

Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. buying a vehicle a separate bucket for this edition that we're adding $50,000 I'll buy a new podcast

you'll buy new friends and we're done thanks for playing everybody we're out of here stacking benjamins follow and listen on your favorite platform