Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Kevin Smith

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

Kevin Smith joins us this week to discuss his roller coaster experience in this industry from surprised early fame with Clerks, to battling a sophomore slump with Mallrats, and eventually maturing to a level of creating without worrying about peer or critic approval. Kevin gets deep into the idea of attaining early success and the feeling of always having to produce from that point forward to prevent getting kicked out of the club. We also get into his graduation moment with Stan Lee, his thoughts on the new CW Universe, and his take on freedom in expression. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tables, or join a live dealer game to feel the thrill of real-time action, all from the comfort of your own devices. Why settle for less when you can go for the gold at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call connects Ontario 1866531-260. 19 and over, physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. You're listening to Inside the View with Michael Rosenbaum. I just wanted to do that because it's Halloween, you know, a month. You know, it's my favorite month, favorite time of the year. Really?

Yeah, it is. As you can see, behind you are my Evil Dead poster, Lost Boys, Fright Night, the Thing poster behind me that I just watched last night with the horror Zoom group. You know, I have a horror Zoom group. We watched The Fly, and then, um, so we vote on movies. and then so everybody picks three and then everybody has to pick three of other people's choices for horror movies for that week

so there's ultimately five weeks in October because we kind of use November 3rd whatever it's like we do five weeks so everybody gets pretty much a movie that they want to see and so we had a pretty good selection but last night was the fly in the thing so I was up to one I just was so happy because I love those movies they were so good

I haven't seen either yeah well there you go but love Halloween and uh i hope you guys listen to the last week's episode because it was uh incredibly intense and insightful if you have again go back and listen to sarah edmondson if you're here for kevin smith great but hopefully if you like this interview you'll stick around and listen to other interviews i think you'll you'll dig them um but sarah evinson you know alison mac was on small but with me and she joined this thing that became this cult and uh so he talked about that and this woman sarah who's

really amazing um talked about getting branded all this stuff so it was a really interesting week and there was a lot of press and things like that and uh you know it's it's it's nice to hear from peers and just people around that shoot you texting go dude i listen to that interview is really good i'm like well listen can you listen to others can you subscribe for fuck's sake god damn i think that's the thing you know you know people some people listen to the episode they oh i want to listen to that person yeah kevin smith man which is great i'm glad you're here. They might have just fast forward.

I don't want to hear this guy. But we had a lot of great stuff to say on the podcast. Just a few things. If you're here and yet you don't subscribe or you don't follow us on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook, it's really easy. It's at Inside of You podcast on Instagram and Facebook at Inside You Pod on the Twitter. And thank you to Westwood One for their support. We joined forces of Westwood One about two months ago and things are going well.

very happy with them and they're working hard. And so to all the girls and boys over at Westwood One, I really appreciate you. You know who you are. Also, lots of new merch at the inside of you online store. We got new flip-flops, tumblers, like badass tumblers that, like, you know, you could throw off a building and they'd still be all right. Tank tops and mugs, autograph mugs, and wine glasses, beach towels, all that shit.

Rosie Pants 1. R-O-S-E-Y pants, P-A-N-T, for 15% off at the inside of you online store just for you guys listening today also stage it is next weekend rob and I are singing some tunes it's a Halloween special uh we're gonna be dressed up we're gonna dress up we got some I'm decorating the downstairs um we're gonna play some music we might play monster mash some things like that uh we're excited about it we're working on the album and great prizes like zoom's winner gets uh their choice of a song that will play We'll videotape and send it back to you

You get a Zoom Anybody who bids over It's 3,500 notes Whatever that is Get an automatic Zoom From us after the show So thank you for listening Thank you for the continuals

We got some great guys In fact next week's guest It's going to be a big one I'm not saying who it is I'm not saying what happened But this person's coming on here To exclusively tell us some good news Or bad news

Or bad and good news but whatever is it's news worthy breaking news breaking news and it's nice when people you really respect and admire and just uh you know fans of the podcast uh they they call you and they say i want to come on and talk about something and you're like really so that's cool uh reminding you all to vote whoever you vote for it's just important that your voice gets heard and you know there's nothing worse than people sitting at home going bitching about everything and not doing anything about it said you know what you can't bitch if you hate what's going on or if you hate the current president or if you hate Biden or if you and you don't vote you it's like just shut

up then vote down ballot your community is important too just zip it up man just do do all the voting yeah I'm voting I voted you voted I voted already man yeah so just vote whoever you vote for I love you I don't give a shit vote fucking vote all right let's get inside this guy it's funny because I didn't think you like me for a while because you know we talk about it because I left smallville he says yeah I left smallville but I I did leave smallville but it was there's reasons and they you know my contract ended but we talk about a lot of stuff we talk about some stuff that I don't think he's ever talked about um and uh I really found him interesting and you know I feel like I have a new friend a lot of times I interview someone I'm like it goes well and I just feel

like there's a connection and that does happen but with Kevin Smith I felt like um I just we felt like we liked each other he's texting me after he's like on the show you'll hear him anytime you want me back and if you guys want him back listen to this tell me what you think please subscribe and email all your friends the links and Spotify, Apple, podcasts, of course, YouTube, we're all over YouTube, but you can watch these videos that Ryan edits that are really well edited and fun to watch. So check that out. And let's get inside of Kevin Smith. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience.

How are you? How are you? I'm doing all right. You look great. Oh, I'm trying to stay alive. Is that a jerk poster behind you? Oh, hell yeah. Signed by Steve Martin.

The fuck. How? Well, I did a movie called Bringing Down the House. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was, I wore a bad wig in it because I was bald from Smallville. But he was so awesome, man. I've talked about it before. I was at lunch sitting at a table, and he'd come over and go, is this seat taken?

And he'd sit right next to me and tell me about Smallville. So at the end, I brought him a bunch of tapes. That's a pretty good Steve Martin. I'd never done a Steve Martin. It was just the essence of a Steve Martin. But I brought that poster in the last day I was done. I go, hey, man, I'm like that. I don't know.

Most actors don't. I talk about this, by the way, to every guest. And I'm like, can you sign this poster for me, man? He's like, of course, come on in. and he played some banjo in his trailer and he was just a delight man you got to hear him play banjo up yeah have you met him never

I saw him years ago the Montreal film festival and he was getting the same year he was there with a movie called The Simple Twist of Fate and which was kind of a remake of Silas Marner if I remember correctly and he you know

they like festivals when somebody's in town they're like we give me a lifetime achievement award So they gave him a Lifetime Achievement Award or something like that. And they had the press conference in a mall. So he was like in front of the fountains and shit. They had press conference. So people in the mall were watching. And we didn't know there was a rough conference going on.

Me and Mosier were just crossing through the mall. And all of a sudden we saw like they were like, ladies and gentlemen, Steve Martin, and they brought him out and shit. And he just seemed so somber. Like he was so not, you know, the dude that we grew up watching. It was so like, I remember somebody heckled. I mean, it wasn't even a heckle barely.

They were like, Steve, get a job. And he goes, you know, I'm like, what comedy gold is going to come from here? And he was just like, thank you. That was it. So I remember thinking early on, like comedy genius, but doesn't feel the need to turn it on or keep it on, I guess. That's a rarity that you could have that strength. I guess Steve Martin, but like, you know, I couldn't. I'm not that reserved.

I couldn't, if someone, I don't imagine myself with an audience, no matter how sad I was or how somber I was, I'd have to turn it on. But he could get away with it, but like, even like, were you like, this is uncomfortable? It wasn't that I was uncomfortable, but I was just like, oh my God, like this is the first time I'd ever seen a version of the polyachi or, you know, fucking syndrome

where the funniest guy is maybe not, you know, feeling all that funny all the time. And I'm certainly not like saying he was fucking pressed. He was just like, you know, and again, I wasn't engaged with him. It was from the second floor looking down. But it was not like what I assumed Steve Martin anything would be like. If he has, you know, 200 people staring at him, I just assume like every entertainer, you know. Turn it on.

Instincts kick in. So now it could be that he was there with a simple twist of fate, which was more of a dramatic. film and stuff, and it could be that he was like getting lifetime achievement or something, but yeah, it was, I'll never, I mean, to this day, whenever I think of Steve Martin, up until that moment, anytime I thought Steve Martin, I was like, oh, all of me, the jerk, comic genius, and bigos, and wild and crazy guy, the album, which I listened to

incessantly in the 70s. And then every, you know, Steve Martin thought I have after that, it's just like that poor man, he just did not want to be in Montreal, sitting in the middle of a mall, talking about his career. Well, I met Jim Carrey. It was at a beach house. What was that like? He was really nice, but again, he wasn't like, you know, he was on, hey there, how are you

today? All righty then. He wasn't doing that. He was just kind of like, hey, how are you? Okay. And to be fair, like, I bet you when people meet us, like, you know, you don't give him fucking Lex and I don't give him silent Bob, but like, these cats are too large than life.

Right. who like you know they've played roles in movies and those those two roles that I mentioned are our famous roles and shit like that but we're not known for going around doing our thing in public I especially don't shut up like that's that's the characters and I'm not that smart so I don't so when I talk people aren't going wow you didn't use the word colloquialism you know or also like fucking sinister like that guy knows all the angles and shit dude I think you know I'm not talking this is about you I'm not talking this is about you I'm not talking about me, but I just remember when I got the role, every one of my friends, my friend Matt, I had a little gathering and celebratory thing and everybody's laughing and Matt's got his pants down. He's got this Lex Luthor doll shoved in his ass. And it kind of, it was humbling, but I was like,

ugh, they just don't buy it. They're like, you? Dude, they're going to fire you. You're not Lex Luthor. I'm like, I could, I'm an actor. I can do this. And it just was like, you know, it was, it was definitely daunting. It was definitely a scary time.

What have you done right before that where they tapped you? I know this is more about me than you, but I'm still fascinated because that's my world. So you're talking about a show, who is it, Miles and? Al and Miles, Al-Goff, Miles, Mall. Oh, and Miles? Yeah. Still to this day, one of the only regrets I've ever had in my career,

and some people would be like Jersey Girl, you know, fucking yoga hosers, the list is long. The only regret, one of the only regrets I have in my career is, they sent me like a faxed letter. That's how far back this goes. Oh yeah. When they were working on on Smallville, Goin and Mallard.

And they were like, hey man, like, come out and direct one of these. And that was when I was like, I just direct what I write. I could never direct somebody else's script. That's insane. So I never went. And Mews, Jason, as you

well know, loves Smallville. He loved it when it was happening, he still fucking loves it to this day. So the notion of like now, having done like CW shows, I'm like oh my God, like I could have gotten

started on that way earlier. Like a decade maybe more earlier than like when I finally directed a flash. And it honestly might have changed the course of my career. Not that I'm like, oh, I missed out on it, but like if you're directing

like commercial TV and And, you know, it's, as I found with CW, it's a wonderful little environment where nobody's like, you can only, you can only achieve. You can't really fail in that environment. They won't let you make a bad show because they make one every week. So they know how to do it. Right. So the only good things ever came from, like, directing those shows, like, you know, especially it was coming in the wake of, like, yoga hosers. And so a lot of people were unkind.

So that first flash episode I did, people were just like, hey, he fucking seems to know what he's doing or something like that. Welcoming. They were welcoming. They were. And also appreciative of like, you know, me the whole time going, it wasn't me. Zach Stence wrote an amazing script. I just like brought it to fucking life as best I could. But the crew does it every week.

I'm the only thing that was different this week. So trust me, it's not like necessarily just me. But I realize if I had done Smallville, that. would have started 10 to 15 years earlier. Wow. And who knows? I might be directing back on superhero movies right now, which is not something that I ever aspired to or dreamed about.

Like a lot of people are always like, when are you going to make a Marvel movie? I'm like, number one, they're too smart to give me money. Number two, that job is too big for the likes of me. Like the CW shows, I'm sure it was this way on probably less when you guys were doing small, but what were your episodes? So it was like six day weeks, five day weeks. 10.

We had eight days on small, though, we had, it was a one hour and it was like all these. But it was these special effects that they hadn't really done. It was very, you know, it was, it was, it was brand new. It was, uh, it was just, it was just changed the game in a lot of ways for TV. And so we had eight days of episodes and then two for additional like, you know, stunts and all that stuff. So they were, yeah, it was, we were after 10 months a year. But you're right, though, when you said, uh, it is a family. I'm not saying anybody could direct TV.

it's not true. I personally believe anyone could direct TV. If as long as you walk on, maybe not a pilot, maybe not season one. But if you walk on to a season two set of a show that's up and running, everybody knows what the fuck they're doing,

like anybody can direct. Really, it's just a matter of going action and cut. Everyone else does their jobs really well. Like, I rarely ever walked over, if ever, to give somebody like directing tip or acting tips. Like, my direction, like we'd roll a take and then I go over and be like that's fucking awesome and then I go back to

the chair and you give presents I heard like lots of things were like the best guy and said you'll give presents to people you'll give but like but I think that's also part it's fun but you're look you're I like the self deprecation we we I do it but like you know what you're doing you've done some great things just because you think you have done some we've all done oh well look at this this this got me attention and then I did this and then we have this that didn't do well or at bomb I always say if somebody has one hit movie they've got one hit movie. If they've got one thing that I liked,

I go, they're great. I don't care if they have 10 pieces of shit. I remember before I had a career, back when I was just like a film enthusiast, you know, somebody that dreamed about making movies. You know, Spike Lee had made, he started with She's Got a Habit, then he did school days,

and his third film was Do the Right Thing. And do the right thing is an astounding achievement that's still one of my five favorite films of all time and still holds up today, even more now today, oddly enough, than when they made the movie. Or it's just as relevant today as in 1989, which is a sad statement on the country. So I love that movie. A couple years later, man, like he did something, I don't know, maybe it was Girl 6 or something

that a bunch of people were kind of like crapping on it. And my whole thing was like, hey, man, that dude may do the right thing. Like, he gets a pass forever. Right. And then I had a career. thankfully one day I heard somebody in the depths of my career when I was doing shit nobody liked I heard

somebody go like well at least he made clerks and I was like yes the do the right thing defense it's going to come in my favor as well but that's a healthy way to look at and we and of course when the shit's piling up and we're bombing and we're like you know well it's it's how you look at

we look at it differently then you're probably not as optimistic were you probably were like a hit Brock bottom I was terrified that like look The first movie we made was Clerks, and I'll be the first to tell you, we were insanely overpraised. We were in flavor of the year, not even just the month. And people said such nice things about that movie itself.

Mallrats, polar opposite experience. I mean, now people really like the movie. It's aged well. But when it came out, critics like shit in its mouth. It did no money at the box office. The poster, which Drew Struzan painted in his fucking classic, as far as I'm concerned, was confusing to people because they were like, is this a magazine?

Like, it looked like the cover of a comic book. But, you know, most people didn't get that. Comic book culture wasn't fucking that big at that time and shit. So I think to a lot of people, like, oh, this must be a new magazine coming out called Mallrats or something like that. So, like, everything that could have went wrong went wrong. And I remember being like, we're over. You know, there was a moment.

I was so early in my career. I was like, Universal gave us $5 million to make this movie. It only made $2 million. Do I owe them $3 million? because I've got that kind of fucking scratch so that's an instance of me going like we're fucking finished like you could find interviews from

me with me at that time like there's a premier magazine quote where you know I was like I'm I've spent the summer like or I've spent the last two weeks because I guess Mulrats came out like in the beginning of the fall or something like that and I said I spent the last two weeks

curled up in the fetal position in a dark bedroom with a stack of bad reviews in one hand and a shotgun in the other and stuff. And, you know, it seemed like I'm done. You know, chasing Amy was a Hail Mary for me because I was like, we're finished. Like, fucking nobody's going to hire me.

That was it, one hit wonder. The sophomore jinks was the most terrifying thing in the world to young filmmakers, first-time filmmakers, man. If you were lucky enough to get attention for your first film, then you had to run the gauntlet of what people would make of your second film. And in my case, people made nothing of it. But they were like, oh, I remember the reviews, like, what was his name? Kenny Tehran said in the LA Times, he goes, if, if AFI or Sundance ever offer a course on what not to do as a second feature,

mall rat should be at the heart of the curriculum. That was the nicest part of it. Like all the reviews were very dismissive. And the general tone was, we put this guy here with clerks and this is the shit he makes. Fuck these Sundance kids. Like, give them no money or whatever. so that movie haunted me forever for about 10 years then 10 years into my career 10 years after mall rats suddenly like everything changed suddenly people had watched it on home video or on

HBO or for years and I was the one I always remember that it flopped and I would say that to people I was like oh my god that movie tech where you know people go I love mall rats I'd be like where were you in 95 we could have used your help because it couldn't have tanked it can't be no way it's got to be a huge box office success because I have it on DVD and I'm like, those two things are not necessarily equitable and whatnot. So you realize you're the one that carries around the failure.

Like you wear, you know, just like Jacob Marley, we wear the chains we forge in life. Ain't nobody out there still remembers that fucking Morant's tank except me. Maybe some, I'm not even anyone at Universal anymore. They're all fucking gone at this point and changed so many times. So there

was a time I was terrified. And then 10 years later and even up until this moment in time. Mallrats is like one of the movie, oddly, the movie that almost killed my career is the one that has kept it fucking buoyed for a few years. Like Stan Lee reading the script for Mallrats and Captain Marvel with, you know, was doing his lines out loud was like everything. That to me was the moment where I was like, you know what?

Like, because I remember like being there when people were like, you shouldn't have done that. Maybe you shouldn't have made that book of shit. That's the worst thing in the world to hear, right? like oh man second-guessing your artistic statement your statement your you know testimony if you will but like when stanley you know was was doing the line you know trust me true believer in captain marvel that for me was graduation day where i'm like this motherfucking movie that everyone left for dead in the goddamn fucking hot sun and shit survived and like you know lives and has this weird fucking modicum of respect to it and shit.

So you never know what the thing's going to be. But I do often wonder if I had jumped into Smallville like when they had written me that fax, what would the career look like today? Probably the same because

I'm overly dedicated to making Kevin Smith movies because they got a lot of people make those comic book movies. Ain't nobody wants to make Kevin Smith movie but Kevin Smith. So I often feel like I would have gravitated this way. Like there were a lot of opportunities

to do something better, different than what people assume I've done with my career. Like I remember at one point they were like, you direct Goodwill Hunting. And, you know, I was like, I love this fucking script,

but honestly, I will turn to Ben and Matt every fucking scene and be like, what did you see when you wrote this? All right, let's just shoot that. Because back then I was like,

I'm a writer, director, capital W and all the way through, lowercase D, all the way through. I fancy myself more a writer than a director and still kind of do to this day. But you do anything for fucking 26 years, even if you do it haphazardly, you wind up getting better at. So I have gotten kind of better with age, which is nice. But it's never been my thing.

The writing is always the more important. But do you feel like now you really think, because we could sit there and tell ourselves, like, I don't even read reviews, I don't give a shit. Is there a point in your life and when was it where you just were like, hey man, I'm just going to do what I do? do. I'm going to do what I do. I'm going to get things made because I love movies. I'm going to get people who like them or they won't. I can't, I can't be happy or unhappy based on an outcome of the box office. It's a great question. And to throw out the disclaimer before I head into it and whatnot, these are fucking first world problems, kids. Like when you've gotten

to a place that you're trying to get to, that's everything. And you never have any right to bitch. That being said, maintaining that is far more difficult. Nobody tells you that when you start out, you know, because you're so full piss of vinegar. You're like, I just want to express myself. I'll be a director. I don't be an actor or whatever. Nobody tells you like, if you're lucky enough

to get picked where they put your shit, you know, in front of the public, then you've got to do it again. Then you got to do it again. Then you got to do it again. You got to keep doing it until you drop fucking dead. And, you know, or you get kicked out the club.

So it's like anyone comes up with a magic trick is an amazing thing. You know, slight a hand and shit. Like, you know, motherfuckers, like, be at a party. I'm like, what's that? And they pull a quarter out from your... Clerks is me pulling a quarter out from behind somebody's ear. They're like, oh, that's clever.

Well done. And I thought that would have been it. Like, once I made one of those, then, you know, fucking, hey, there's my magic trick. But then, you know, they're like, all right, what's next? And for the last 26 years, they've been going, like, what's next? So if I want to stay in the game, you got to keep making shit. You got to maintain, you've got to have longevity.

And that's the thing nobody prepares you for. Nobody tells you like, hey man, how long you want to be in this fucking thing? You know, I wish my shit was like a TV season where I broke it up into seasons where I'm like, you know, after 10 seasons, I'm out or something like that. But with no defined exit point, because I don't even have a defined exit point based on whether the movies did good or bad. Because at the end of the day, I can just shoot a lower budget.

movie, you know, like, as was the case with Chase Amy. Marrads came out, didn't do well, cost $5 million, didn't do well. We went and made Chasing Amy for $250 grand, that went on to make like $12 million. So I've, you know, I'm not like Chris Nolan in many fucking ways, any critic will tell you, but

one of those ways is like, Chris is always like, we need as much money as possible to do this practically and do it right because cinema is forever and shit. And I'm the guy coming from indie film who's just like, that's good enough, that'll get the job done. Good enough. is the only way I've gotten this far in my career.

If I was striving for perfection that you never even want to see in clerks, for Christ's sake. Look at clerks. It's absolutely imperfect. But my whole career was predicated on an absolutely imperfect, sloppy first effort. So what did that teach me? For the next 10 years of my career,

I was like, it doesn't have to be better than clerks. Like, if they'll sit through clerks, they'll watch this. And because of that, I never really pushed myself or I have pushed myself. Every once in a while, there's like, Tusk or some such shit, but like visually speaking, I kept shit real fucking simple. It was only after directing as many years as I have where you're just like, well, maybe I can maybe I can grow. Maybe I could try this. I've been around long enough.

And this is not, I don't want this to be misread as like, I'm bored. I fucking love what I do for a living. But at a certain point, it's like, you know, after the first five movies, every movie's a joy to make, don't get me wrong. But after the first five movies, it's like, I know what the experience of movie making is. That's why when podcasting happened, like, I've been podcasting for 13 years now. We started 2007 because that was an art form that was like, what?

Like, I don't need millions of dollars. I can just, I can fucking invite my friends over and sit in my office and smoke weed and chit chat. That's the art form for me. So like that, you know, even though at a point where I was like, you know, movies, like there was a point where I retired. I literally retired after, like, Red State. I was like, I'm done.

Like, this is it. This is the last movie I made. I'm good. Bye. And you really believe that. You were done. You were like, I'm fuck this. And not even in a fuck this kind of way, but I'm just like, you know, I got nothing left to say.

That was my point. I was like, you know, let a young person say some shit. I don't really have that much. You've seen every trick I can do. Red State felt like a high watermark where I'm like, this don't look like nothing I've ever done before. If I took my name off that movie, not a single motherfucker in the world, including my own mother, would know that I made that movie. So at that point, I felt like, you know what?

This is my film school. This is my masterpiece. And I don't mean masterpiece. Like, this is brilliant, like a Nolan movie. I mean, like, you know, I was an apprentice for fucking decade or more. And finally, I was like, I'm going to present my masterpiece to see if I can go up the next level. That's how it work. You had an apprentice working under a master artist.

And then one day, the apprentice would be like, I made my piece, my masterpiece. and this is for you to judge and tell me whether I can ascend or none. And that's what Red State felt like to me. Interestingly enough, so did Jane, Tom, Bob Reboot. But Red State, when I felt like, you know what, this is it. Like, I've shown that I've learned how to do this. The guy who made clerks, which is a fun movie to watch or listen to, but like tough to look at because it looks like a shot through a glass of milk,

learned how to shoot a movie, good for him. And I felt like that's the time to get out, get out while you're feeling good. So for three years, all I did was podcast, tour, like just do live shows. I wrote the book. We had comic bookmen, the TV show going on. But I was convinced that I was done with film. Steve Soderberg said he was going to retire. And I'm like, he's way better than me at the job.

This is what people, this is what everybody's doing now. We're quitting. This is what we do. And Quentin has also talked about. No, I said Quentin, not quitting. Oh, I said quitting. Quentin is also a factor because he talked about, I'm only making 10 and getting the fuck out. Now, I remember he said to me at one point, he was like, directing is a young man's

game. He said, directing isn't for old people, man. No such thing as a really good old director, he said. It belongs to young people. And I was like, well, he's fucking one of the smartest people I met in this business in terms of like, great at what he does. He must know a thing or two about a thing or two. So there was a moment where I was like, I'm done. And then it was through podcasting, through an episode of Smodcast where me and Moser wound up talking about this weird Walrus story that suddenly I was like, oh, like I would like to see this movie. You can hear

it on a smodcast episode 259. Me and Moser sitting there building a fake movie by accident, same way like we would always fuck around on a podcast, but you hear me get serious about it. Mosier fucking around and me going like, this could be a legit, good movie man. And then I was like, hashtag

on Twitter, like, you think I should make this as a movie? Walrus, yes. You think a stupid idea? Walrus, no. And the next morning, see you of Walrus yes one walrus no and the one walrus no said i only said walrus no because i want to support the democratic process i'm really walrus yes so at the point i'm like i should write this fucking script and you know you should never ask the internet what you should do because it's not like they're looking out for your best interest but in this case it was in my best interest like you know

suddenly i i realized i got a chance here with my audience they heard the initial idea How often does that happen when a motherfucker's there for the moment of inspiration? Generally, most people see the end product. Like, here's the movie, here's the TV show, here's the song, once it's all produced. But they were there when I was like, wouldn't it be great if we made a movie

about a guy who turns another guy to a Walrus? So I felt like if I could bring that shit to life in front of the audience, like the audience of Smodcast, now that they've heard the idea, I could take this shit from cradle to grave and show them the entire filmmaking process, It's not just like, hey, surprise, I'm making a clerk sequel.

Just like you heard about this Walrus thing. You wanted to see it. I want to see it. So I'm going to open source this fucker. And you're going to see how a stupid-ass fucking idea can become a movie. And if I can do that with this idea, then you should be able to do it with your ideas and stuff. So that fired me up again. And when I came back to filmmaking, I didn't care about the things I used to care about.

I didn't care about reviews. I didn't care about box office. And I'm not to say, like, fuck all those people. It was no longer the primary concern. I've been in the game long enough to know that, like, what really matters is longevity. Like, just like when Marats came out and flopped, you know, if that was the end of the story, then the lesson I would have learned is like, be careful. Watch your step. Don't make bad movies or whatever fuck.

But as it turns out, it wasn't a bad movie to a bunch of people who embraced it. And now that movie is like one of the top favorites of all the movies I've ever. fucking done and stuff. So at that point you're like I guess if I could just stick around longevity will like you know if I'm here this long at the point we were doing Tuss like I was like I've been here doing this job for nearly 20 fucking years like from day one of being you know and making movies being in the public got being on the internet mostly because we were online from like 1995 forward for views skew.com was like the website we opened the tail Lendon 95. So I was interacting with the audience

like from the end of Mallrats Ball. So after, you know, you do that for a bunch of years, like two decades and stuff like that, there's not a single fucking day goes by. Don't get me wrong. Lots of love. People say wonderful things about you. All the

shit you want to hear, you'll see written. But also all the shit you secretly dread someone will ever say also gets written. So for the last like 20 years, I've been like, you know, just tempered in raw shit. Like, I've been told every day of my life, professional life, by some stranger that

I suck at my job, that I shouldn't be a director. People say that to you. In person? Never in person. I mean, very rarely in person. Every once in a while, somebody would tell you they don't like the movie you made, but I can't think of anyone that ever told me face to face. Somebody said to me once, it wasn't, he waited in line at a convention where I was signing

and I was just, you know, and he just got up there and he goes. Gene Hackman's the best Lex Luthor ever. And I go, yeah, I agree. He's like, all right, walked off. I was like, dude, fucking Gene Hackman, you know, what the fuck, you know? It's like, but. Also, it's like, what a waste of your time at a con. Not your time.

That person's time. Like, you're sitting there anyway and shit. But that person, there's so much to see at a con. And they waited all that time just to get up to you to be like Gene Hackman. It wasn't that much time. Kevin, there was, you know, my line wasn't that big at the time. I could say it was, but maybe it wasn't as big. So, long was a lot.

I don't know. Oh, I'm just looking around. Easily 30 minutes. I've been to a comic show or two in my day. Nobody has a line less than 30 minutes. So that motherfucker probably waited 30 minutes just to make that comment. I had a dude come up to me at WonderCon in San Francisco at the, was it, Maisel Center or something like that, Moscone.

Mosconi Center. I come down this escalators to go onto the floor. As I hit the floor, a bunch of people come around. And I didn't like maybe five to 10 with shit to sign and stuff. And this is pre-cell phones everywhere. So there weren't a lot of like, let's take pictures. There was more, can you sign, can you sign? So there's this one kid comes up to me, hands me.

I'll never forget this. It was so fucked up. Like a free giveaway from the Marvel booth. It was like a daily bugle notepad that had Spider-Man on it. So like on one hand, you were like, why would the Daily Bugle put Spider-Man on the notepad? They hate Spider-Man. but obviously this is not an incontinuity prop. It's a free giveaway at a Comic-Con, and I'm overthinking.

So I take it and I'm signing it, and then the guy goes, I hand it back to me, he goes, I don't even know why I asked for this. I don't even like you. And I was like, well, then you've wasted both of our time. Then I headed into the case. Then you kind of want to take it back from him. I mean, but at the same time, he spent his time.

Like, to him, it was valuable use of his time to wait just to cut me down to size. And to his credit, you know that was 15 17 years ago you remembered it still remember it man don't know him don't know his name he probably forgot the incident inside of you is brought to you by quince i love quince i've told you this before i got this awesome $60 cashmere sweater i wear it religiously you can get all sorts of amazing amazing clothing for such reasonable prices look cooler temps are rolling in. And as always, Quince is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last. From cashmere to denim to boots, the quality holds up and the price still blows me away.

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But you said something a few times. I don't know if it scared me, but I don't know. It's interesting. There's a parallel here with me and you where you said you took a couple years off. Now, for me, similar, I mean, you know, I just, I don't know what it made me midlife crisis, whatever.

I had a career. I'm doing things. I'm acting. It wasn't like people stop calling, stop knocking. I just was like, eh, I need a break from this. I don't know. I was a lead on this show called Impaster for two years. And I got good reviews and it got two seasons and it was fun.

And then after that, I was like, you know what? I always wanted to try stand-up. So I did six months of stand-up. And then I go, you know what? I want to make a band. I've always wanted to play music. I just really do. I love music.

I mean, I may not be the best singer, but I want to make a CD and all of a sudden these things. And then in the podcast, at first somebody said, hey, you want to do a podcast. You got a good voice. I'm like, oh, is that the old joke. You got a good face for radio. He's like, no. you know it's like uh and i go you know what i'll try it but not thinking of what i wanted to do it for

but just like i'll make some money then i realized wait a minute this is hard and then i started to open up and be vulnerable and real and talk to my guests like i and and say shit so they open up like my dysfunction my and so when you're talking about you know and it's been about two and a half years and so you know my agent's like dude you want you want to stay relevant you want to stay and and i kind of go and maybe it's cocky i don't know maybe i shouldn't be but i'm like i i just feel like I know I know what I can do I know my abilities I know I could act but I just didn't feel like it for a while and you know you don't want to miss the you think that had something to do what age did you start acting like I mean I did a play in high school and then I um that well see

they all my listeners have heard this but when I did that play it was the first I was a loser in high school I mean I anybody could tell you I was the shortest kid and then when I did that play popular kid was like down the hallway the next day and man you were really funny in that I'm like, oh my God, so not being me is the way to go. And a lot of actors think about that, and that's how that happens. So, but I wasn't getting attention to home or anything, but this is the only attention I got was, you know, just getting instant. So a response, applause.

And so I think that's what happened with my life was like, I just needed that. I didn't know what the other thing was of real life being fulfilled. All I thought was, I guess I just got to make people like me. I guess I got to just be funny. I got to be on. And then all of a sudden, it got me to places. So I thought, well, that's the right way to do it. And then sometimes, well, what happens is at some point in your life, you go, you look in the mirror and I've done this.

And I go, I don't know who you are. I don't know who the fuck you are. I remember saying it. I don't have that one as much as this is the one I have. And my wife hates it because I tell her about it all the time. Usually it's like two, three in the morning. And I'm leaving my office, which is one end of the hallway. And I go to my bedroom, which is the other end of the hallway.

And my wife, Jennifer, we've been together 21 years. So we have a lot of memories and shit. as you walk around the house you know she every it's she calls a family wall it's just you know fucking our lives writ large across this wall and it's a lot of pictures of me with jenn and our daughter harley jen's parents who live with us as well and every once in a while when i'm leaving my office two three of the morning heading to my bedroom and shit stop and look at it all take it all in and at first i'm like this is wonderful what a wonderful life and then there's this moment of disconnect where i'm like who are these people?

people because like I don't live with anyone that I grew up with like like I spent I'm surrounded by four individuals that I did not know up until the time I was like 29 years old and now I've known them all ever since and one of them came out of my body partly and shit like that but it is a weird disconnect like I've never had like who are you I've that's the one thing I've been blessed with I you know I've hung around with people who know who the fuck they are because that rubs off on me so I can figure out who the fuck I am. But many times

I look at the life, it's very David Byrne talking heads once in a lifetime, which is like, this is not your beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. Right. And you may ask yourself. Right. So I know the feeling, but wait a second. So when did you get, what year,

how old were you when you got Smallville? Well, small book probably got 26, but, and by the way, this is therapy. This is what always becomes. It becomes therapy for me, the guest, listeners, whatever. But by the way, to tell you, I've always surrounded myself. In fact, any girl I've ever dated says, I think they date me because my friends. They're so grounded. They're so real.

They're just good people. So I think that's what has saved me. My friends and the people around me. And I feel like, it's not that I ever felt like, you know, I feel like I'm a good person. I feel like I do things. But I just think I was like, hey, man, you don't have to always be on. You don't always have to do these things. And you know what?

Just because you're age, you're going to make them happy if you do a TV show. and you're going to make them happy to do a movie and everybody's happy, but then you've got to go to work and do it. So be careful what you're doing, and this is your life, and it's not that long, man. You should know that. I mean, two years ago, your life flashed in front of you, which I want to talk about because I know you've probably talked about ad nauseum,

but there comes a time where you're like, hey, man, what does it mean? I know that sounds so cliche, but it's not about what it means. It's like, I want to go to bed. I want to die and go, I feel like I lived. Like, I really just loved. loved I was loved and and I don't care what that takes to get to that point because I just feel like I'm working on that it doesn't mean I don't want to act doesn't mean I don't want to but right now I'm figuring all that out this is what I think in regards to your case was 10 or 11 years

on fucking small ball nine um set I did seven seasons and I did 22 episodes a year and that's a chunk like you know most people who consume television you know and happily do it and of course when the season ends like fuck I wish there were 10 more episodes they'd watch It would watch it every week if they could. There are shows that I would watch every fucking week. I wish it would never end. But what a lot of people consume media don't realize is like all those people, yes, they have jobs and they're great jobs. Nobody can play in money is great and shit.

It's like you live your life in a cement block. Like you know who really crystallized it for me? It was Lowe's, you know, Carlos from Flash. Yep. So we were sitting around the set one day. chit-chat and he's a very introspective young man he brought up like when does one stop this sort of thing not like he don't want to be there but he's just like i like i gave up my 20s he's like by the time this is all said and done i will have spent my 20s up here in vancouver pretending you know

to be somebody else and i love the people i work with they're wonderful but he's going I'm never going to get my 20s back. I was like, wow, because all I ever have is Jason Mews in my ear, who forever has always grass is greener did, and I'm sure he's done it to you, where he's just like, if I was on a fucking Smallville or a CW show, he would be one of the supernatural kids, like ride or die for fucking 28 seasons and shit.

He'd never bitch, he'd never be like, I got to find myself. He'd never be like, who am I? He'd be like, I know who I am. I'm the guy on the CW show. So his mindset, like I always used to co-sign when he'd be like, somebody you'd read about somebody leaving a TV show, like when David Caruso fucked off from fucking, you know, that TV show. And people were like, wow, man, why would he do that?

Jason, same thing, was always like, why would people, like, do that? But now, like, after, you know, as long as I've worked on my own ship, but really having gone up and worked on a few CW shows in Vancouver, Like I go and I'm there for like a month, like three to four weeks with prep and shit like that. And then when I get back to my world, I'm like, Jesus, like the world has gone on without me for a month. These kids, man, like Melissa had been up in Vancouver since season two and like history in America going on down here the whole time. Right, right. And she's kind of not a part of it because she's in a big cement building.

But now in her instance, she met love for her life. And so there's like a happy, more than just like, oh, I had a great job. And people knew I was this person and I wanted to be an actress and I became a professional action. She found her love on that set as well, which, you know, doesn't happen to everybody. By the way, I'll bring it up. I remember, it's funny you say that because your perspective is so different now because I remember many years ago.

And I read something where it said, you know, you said, you're like, Michael Roosevelt's leaving small. But what the fuck is it? I remember he said it and I was like fucking Kevin Smith what the you know and it wasn't like I missed that I said something who said what yeah like years ago I don't remember when but I remember when I heard you know Kevin Smith go said you know Michael Rosenbaum's leaving what the why is he doing that was he it like whatever and I go what the what the fuck why is it Kevin Smith like me why is he passionate me for leaving small and here but by the way and I and and I'm not saying you're

wrong but I was going but I went through a like a like I've had back surgery. So I was going through a lot of pain because I was doing stunts. We were doing a lot of our own stunts. And I hurt my back. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. That was the real. And I didn't want, you can't tell that to a studio because they're like, well, liability. But they, you know, they offered me another three years. And I, and I just was like, you know what? I need to just take care of myself. And I need to. And then I got out. I had a surgery. It fixed it. I then went to, I got on another show for a year. Then I did another show. And then I was starting to feel better. but I was really, for seven years, you're right.

It was my 20s, early 30s, and I was grateful. But we were out in Vancouver, and it was raining all the time, and it's a beautiful place. I love it. But I think psychologically, also playing that character for so long, I did go a little crazy. I think I... There's also that, too, which is something that, like, nobody, particularly even myself, ever would have taken into consideration because, you know, you're like, well, yeah, he's playing a bad guy, but he's playing Lex Luthor, but seven fucking years of being like,

Hello Clark And so not me You know I was like in a straightjackets And reading soliloquies and shit I'm like This is so the op And Tommy used to laugh

Because he's like You would just go and like Fuck around Fuck around in action And boom you're going I go because if I'm serious all the time I will jump off a fucking roof I have to laugh

I have to be fun That's how I have to work Aside from mine There must have been a fucking cacophony Oh yeah you I'm just saying you're the famous one. But aside from my

was how much did you get of why the fuck would you lead? Like, who was the loudest? The fan base? The people in your professional life, like, you know, agents and shit like that.

Or yourself. I think, obviously yourself was the loudest voice because you got to fucking walk. It wasn't that easy of a decision, but I made a decision. I felt like, you know, there's a lot of stories. You could say certain things when you're a certain age and, you know, that wasn't necessarily the truth but once you weed through all that you know you get through all that

shit and you go what was the real reason and the real reason was I was done I was physically done I was mentally done and I just was like I thought I was just going to do comedy my whole life and you know right off the bat I did you know one sitcom that wasn't great for a year I wasn't the lead but then I did a thing called Zoe I did a couple of shows and then a movie and I was a comedy I'm gonna do comedy I'm gonna be like or I did urban legend I was up for like private Ryan and things like that whatever like little you know whatever and i felt and then boom catapulted serious role lex luther shave your head 10 months a year and i think it just like it was like wow i can't believe i'm playing this character and it just i wanted a little bit of escape i wanted to play something

different i wanted to also like take a break and then just get my shit together and and try to and be funny and try to like do things that are lighter something that i would enjoy more as much as i love the crew i'd imagine on some level too you like i just want to fucking grow my hair bro you know what's funny i did i would be like fuck i remember you know glen glen winter yes that's right i mean that's that's something when you mentioned like how they created the effects before like when when i join i joined season two of the flash so they had already done seasons i think that would be season three of arrow so the burlante burst had already been up for a few minutes and all the people like in the producers and writing end of the show like down here like go

out of their way even though all of them watched smallville religiously all of them were like we don't do those smallville effects man like we're spending real money here we're doing real effects and whatnot you know because we're in the age of cg right when i went up there to work on the shows everybody who works on all those shows already worked right and they had the they worked their asses off but imagine then there's just they're doing you can't create dust with cgai then you can't we were playing with tech that people from smallville built there was a guy who like we do one episode where somebody had to punch through

a fucking door and he's like uh he's like you like this because i was like i've never felt this before he's like we invented this for smallville and i was like you worked on smallville too and he's like most of the these cats did. Bob, one of my favorite ADs in the world, who worked on both flashings. I love Bob. Bob is one of my favorite. I loved everybody. They're all family to me.

It was like, honestly, I keep in touch with. Wait, Bob, you worked with Bob on Smallville? Bob, uh, a first day dude's kind of like dry sense of humor like, yeah, can we do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right, because he talked about it. He's like, when we were on smallville. One of my favorite things about Bob was one day we're sitting on set. And Bob is like the perfect AD, man.

Like it keeps the train running. Dude's dude, too. He also let you play music and talk and shit like that. So at one point, I was like, Bob, what did you do before all this and shit? And he goes, uh, I was in the Canadian Army. I jumped out of airplanes. I was like, you? You?

Like, because he's such a fucking singular thinker in his own man. I was like, fucking you took orders? And he's like, that's why I wound up in this job. He's going, this job, very much like the military. He's like, you take orders from above and you have to. execute things on timely schedule. It's like, that's why we use military slang and talk in our business and shit. So all the people that I met while working on Flash and Supergirl came from Smallville,

and they all had a similar story where they were like, you know, when they first got up here to do the Burlanti shows, like, you know, the first two seasons of Green Arrow, or Arrow, sorry. You know, they were like, we're not doing that Smallville shit. No superpowers. There's not going to be any wind gags or anything like that. that they're like this is just a motherfucker fighting for justice with arrows then in season two i believe they introduced the flash and once the flash was introduced all the people on flash are like you know they they didn't want they came from arrow as well and they're like nobody wanted to talk about

air cannons ever because they're like that's so small bill and they're like now that's all we do like even arrow uses the fucking air canons and stuff like that all of the track that was laid by fucking a decade of people up in Vancouver going, how the fuck are we going to make this shit? Like, they're benefiting from right now, still, to this day, it's nuts. Well, look, it was, honestly, you know, I hate when people, it's like the clerks thing.

It's like, you know, if, you know, I'm sure people will say, you know, oh, what happens is career after small, but whatever career after chasing Amy or clerks. When you hit a home run and you're on something great, you can only go down. So anything, compared to usually those things, it's very, very difficult.

So I look at it because I'm a lottery winner. I'm a lottery ticket winner. I was a part of something that was brewing. I say that all the time. And I truly mean it, the older I get and the more mature, which is not easy for me. That maturity comes just with experience. It's not even whether you want to be mature or not. You live a long enough life.

You have no choice. I mean, obviously we can think of very public examples, but it's not true. But it seems like the older one gets, you have no choice to get mature. So of course, like I loved what you said before about like getting way past it and then looking back and having a different perspective. When you were like, why did I really do that? I've had that moment many times in my life where you do the thing in the moment

and then you have to kind of recollect somewhere down the road when you're free of the blast and everything is where it needs to be in the present. Why did I really do that? What was the reason behind that? I want to get like you are, where you could honestly go, you know, get to the level where, because for me, it's like, it's like, it's the be all end all a lot of times. Like I, you know, this has to be, I have to be great. I have to, you know, I have to prove to them.

I have, so I'm getting past that, but I want to aspire. Like you said, where you can go, I want to go make this movie because it's funny because I'm the biggest horror fan there is. I mean, I mean, you love, I'm just saying I say that because I really love, I watch three horror movies a week. And, um, I, I'm writing a horror series. that were pitching and I have like this horror movie that I came up and I pitched my agent a couple producing friends and they're like did you have to make that because you could either go and you

could go pitch it and you'll have no control or you can go which scares me too I don't need to have all control I just like I want to go shoot with my friends you came to a point where you're like hey I want to do this movie where I could shoot for $300,000 where at the end of the day I want to have fun and if we make something great awesome let's try and let's enjoy it but I don't want to kill myself doing it and if it's a success even if it's not a success it's still a success because you made a $300,000 movie so you've gotten to a point where you can actually go let's go make that and there's no pressure and I really want that to be like the next thing all you have to do is realize I mean this is going to sound so simplistic but it's like the moment you make a thing

you've won like the end results everything else is just gravy everything else is scenery and stuff like that everything else are asteris and minor statistics. But like the moment you create a thing that is yours or aid in creating a thing that, you know, bringing art to life, bringing something to life that wasn't there before creation rather than destruction, you win.

Like, it's that simple. Then there are degrees of like, you know, how many people know about it. That's really, and of course, money. That's associated, I guess, with money. The more people know about it, some assume the more money there is to it, but those of us in podcasting know that that's really not the case of all.

You can have numbers out the wazoo, man. But what I found, like, what podcasting for me was incredible for was, number one, just self-expression. Like, because I was always like, oh, man, the great job would be a radio show host. It would be so amazing to be Howard Stern and shit. And then one day, somebody was like, you can do a podcast. And I'm like, what? Like the Ricky Jervais podcast had happened. And Scott Mosier was talking about it.

He listened to it. He's like, it's funny. They sit around, they just talk to each other. He's kind of like what we do on a commentary track. I said, then we should make one of these podcasts. And still to this day, I've never listened to the Ricky Jervais podcast, but it's the origin point of everything I do because I was like, well, Ricky Jervais is funny.

He's just sitting around talking to his fucking friends. That sounds like a good life. That sounds kind of like what Howard Stern does. And so then you tried on and you're like, oh, this is rapturous because it's free self-expression. Not like, I've got an idea and I need to self-express. give me $20 million in Ben Affleck. It's like, hey man, sit down.

We're going to have a conversation. And you could showcase people who aren't fucking stars. You can showcase people who don't normally get showcased. That's awesome. This modcast for me was like, ladies and gentlemen, here's Scott Mosier, the guy who produces all my movies who I think is fucking funnier than me. We're going to have this ongoing conversation. Here's Jason Mews, ladies and gentlemen.

You know him from those movies, but the real guy, way funnier than the fucking character. Here he is. Here's my wife. Here's my kid, like showcasing. It's fulfilling, too. Yes, and you get to put those people up on a pedestal. And then people understand about you as an artist a little more like, oh, I can see where that person is an influence and stuff like that. Because there's no money, the sky's the limit.

So that's the thing that it always fucks with the dream, the ambition and shit is money. The moment you can learn to ameliorate that, then the sky's the limit. So you just have to be able to pivot and pivot fucking hard. So you go into a place and you're like, we need $5 million to make this movie. And they're like, absolutely not. Nobody wants to give you $5,000 fucking million. You've got a choice.

Either that fucking script sits in a drawer and you wonder if it ever would have worked or you fucking change your tactic. In my case, as the guy who made the fucking first movie was $27,000. And then my career came from that one dopey, inexpensive movie. I'm always in favor of like let's roll the bones with lower budget because if it works

it's the fucking lottery ticket everybody gets fucking rich we all look smart we got a story to tell about how nobody fucking believed in us but we fucking hold our stuff all of it is gravy and shit and if it doesn't work

and that's the only choice because either you do that where the thing don't get made and if the thing don't get made nothing has accomplished nothing has occurred like you're just stagnant So I'd always rather like fucking risk it on way less money.

I know like the people I work with are always frustrated because the moment they're like, you know, the budget is this. And I'm like, oh, let's just fucking, let's just drop this, this, this. And as a guy who's editing the movie and as a guy who's not very visionary and never has very expensive ideas, even if I have a script, like, you know, we found this on Twilight of the Mallrats, movie we're working on right now. budget came in probably let's say a million two over what we wanted it to be where we all felt comfortable where it was going to get greenlit and shit you know so they're like what do we do and in that instance i'm like well i fucking got us into this trouble by dreaming up this stupid bullshit let me see if i can back us out of it as well and you start going through the script and going like all right well you don't need this they don't need to jump through the roof twice you know once we'll be fine

And that takes off about $50,000 of a stunt day and you just chip away at it until you can get down. Now, in the instance, that was an instance of like verified breathing where it's like, we got to bring the movie down by $1.2 million. That intimates that somebody's giving us millions of dollars to tell a fucking story. Most of the time, it's not the case. And when I say millions, mine are always under 10 at this point. Ain't nobody giving me fucking $10 million or more in this world anymore. So because I can like

just reconstruct it to be cheaper like that's that's the key man like I you know my respect to Chris Nolan but like that that's Chris Nolan's the director who's just like I in order to fucking do this sequence we're going to shoot it forward

and then we're going to shoot it backwards and we're not going to reverse the film that's cheap. We're going to shoot the sequence in reverse because that's a mind-fuck and an accomplishment and what are we doing in cinema trying to push the matter? I love that.

Good for him and I can't wait to see it and I respect goalmakers like that. They're absolutely my betters. But I'm the other guy. I'm the guy that's just like, you know, that's good enough. Good enough has gotten me 26, almost 27 years into a very unlikely career. So for me, it's like good enough, man.

If the shot is soft, it's good enough, man. As long as that performance, singing, that's what's important. It don't have to look great. It don't have to sound great. It don't have to like break dimensions and barriers and fucking like you know who you are. That's the simple way to say it. You know who you are, what you can do and I'm, you're that guy if that's what they want. You're not Chris Nolan. You're Kevin Smith. This is what I do and you know what you're going to get. I'm going to bust my ass. I'm going to keep it. Everybody's going to have fun. No one's going to be screamed at. You know, what means too is that your phone don't

ring a lot. You know, I don't get a lot of calls for people go like, fucking save us. Direct one of these studio movies. We need your help. So, you know, in a world where I was waiting for that to practice my craft, I'd probably be out of his game long

fucking time ago and stuff. But I've got the ability to generate my own material. So it's like, I don't have to technically ever wait for somebody to be like, you may make your art good sir. Like now I'm at a place where I'm like, like, if I want to do it, we're going to do it. Because none of the shit I want to do is earth shattering.

It's not me going like, we're going to make Star Wars on a budget, not at all. Most of the shit I want to do is stupid. It's like this stoner talks to this stoner like they did 30 years ago. Inside you is brought to you by Rocket Money. If you want to save money, then listen to me because I use this. Ryan uses as so many people use Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Crazy, right?

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I could talk to you forever. You know, the only time we were ever really talked, we were in England at a con, and you took me aside and go, dude, you're playing Martin X. I'm like, ah, it's a small role. You know, that's me. And you're like, yeah, but it's like,

it's one of the original, you knew everything. And I go, I wish I knew something to tell him. You know, but you're going to do the sequel, right? I go, I don't know. I don't know what's, but it was so nice you to kind of, you know, take me aside. And it was just like, I'd never met you. And I was just like, I like this guy.

I never met him. And it was just like, when you meet somebody there, you just have a warmness to you that I was like, I want to work with that guy. He's just, he makes me feel confident. I honestly thank you. That means the world and stuff.

And aside from just liking your professional work, I always fucking enjoyed you through Jason Mews, who is like, you should be paying him like publicist. I love him. What a fucking article. He sings your praise. I mean,

again, he loved that show. And if he, like, if you guys could still be fucking Clark and Lex, I bet she'd pay it you to do it this. Oh, man. Hey, by the way.

And he loved the show. It's up, but he loved your dynamics. He's like, they're so good, dude. They treat it so seriously, man. It's just like fucking reading the comics and shit. You know what? Yeah. I was like, you wear a Superman suit.

And he goes, in that way, it's not like the comics. No. But you know what? I got to say, thank God social media wasn't around. And thank God it was just I didn't watch anything. I wasn't a huge comic book fan. Like I said, I'm a horror fan. So for me, people all.

always ask the question. I'm like, I got to be honest with you. I just, I wanted to learn my lines and they were good lines and, and just be believable and grow and show emotion and just be real and let the writers and the directors kind of, you know, and that's it. I just didn't, I go, I'm not going to try and emulate. I'm not going to try and be real. I just wanted to be real. That's it. Just be real. Let me ask you some inside baseball about Vancouver. Did you say the Sutton for seasons one and two? Sutton plays season one. I got a houseboat season two. on the fuck seriously he's a houseboat yeah it was awesome colorful motherfucker that's awesome it was awesome houseboat and then i lived in kitzel no other c w kids do that i don't know but it was the

best thing you'd ever do you wake up and there's a seal at your back door i'm not fucking kidding a seal oh he's right he's right i mean he ain't right he ain't wrong kids it was it was it was awesome but you know it's genius about that being on a fucking series and living on a houseboat like number one you're gonna get rock to sleep every night so that's kind of awesome There's something pastoral and serene about being at one with the sea. But you don't need that much space in your world, like having an apartment or a house, because what do you do? You fucking wake up, get in a car, go to the fucking stage,

and you're there for the next 15 fucking hours. And then you get to come home and crad. And I'm sure if there were days where you're like, fuck, I just want to sleep in a goddamn hotel. You could just walk across the street, stay in a goddamn house. And I was a regular. I was a regular at the aquarium. I mean, they knew me behind the scenes,

brought everybody. I knew the ins and outs. I donate to them. Whatever it was. All right. How many seasons were you on the boat? Oh, just one. I should have kept it. I remember the dick the dick ows owned it. The dickows. That was that. That was their name. I was going to ask you because you said Jason Mews and it brought me up a question, you know, when he was talking in the interview and it was so good. And he brought it up when he was, you know, going through the addiction. It was like one of the last times. He said, you were sitting in the car picking him up and he started to walk towards you and you didn't even recognize him

and that was the first time he saw you cry you cried and that's and it just I remember I almost lost it because it was so emotional I'm like I just I mean to be fair he was right that was the first time he saw me cry but now we're up to like

thousandth why's that and when I became a stoner in like 2008 like I started wearing my heart on my sleeve and everything fucking touched me that's how I even wound up directing the flash because I was just watching the flash and I shot a video of me fucking like bawling crying at how good it was and so my agent was like you know well I actually was

Jason's wife Jordan she was like I called boy Jordan as my agent and said call fucking somebody on flash and see if you know maybe they'll let him direct an episode he loves the show so much and I was so madder I was like don't fucking do that I don't need no help from the shirtless boy network we're doing fine over here and shit like that and then when they said, oh, we'd love you to come. I was like, thank God, you said that. Oh, my God. We're going to go up and direct the flash and shit. You always, you work with people all the time where you like, you have people that you work with again. And again, is that because not only they're talented, but a lot of it has to do with comfort? Absolutely. I know what they're

capable of. And, you know, sometimes you're like, why am I just going to like elevate some stranger, particularly the same fucking stranger that everybody picks for like 50 movies a year when I can elevate somebody nobody's seen like when i rode chasing amy um i we were looking for three million dollars to make the movie and you know we just set up an overall deal at miramax and stuff and so you know i was like uh i wrote this for ben affleck and joey adams and jason lee um and you know the people i've worked with on fucking mall rats i met all three of them on mall rats but they're capable of so much more and love so at meryl post who was our executive Miramax, lovely person, she was like, no, we're not going to give you

$3 million to make a movie with people nobody have ever heard of. And I was like, what do you mean? They're like, well, we have people, we would like, this is good script, we have people in deals that we'd like to put into the movie. And I was like, oh, well, who? And they were like, we're thinking, David Schwimmer, Drew Barrymore, and a young up-and-coming comic who hadn't I hadn't had the Daily Show yet, John Stewart. So, you know, I'm like, all right, well, I get it. And I know they're famous or whatever fuck, but, you know, I wrote this for these three people. And I think they're really, like, fucking talented and people aren't overly familiar with their work.

Like, no disrespect to Drew Barrymore, but, like, she, particularly at that point, she got all the jobs. Like, she needs another one, you know? It's like, this person, like, number one, I wrote the character bait this person. But number two, it's like, how about we introduced somebody like fucking new and shit like that? So, you know, once, in that instance, I dropped the budget down to like, that was one of the first movies I had to pivot on, where we wanted three million. And they were like, not with that cast, no way. Our cast, three million. Your cast, we're not making the movie.

So I offered to make the movie for 200 grand with my cast. And I was like, we'll make the movie. If you guys like it, it's yours. If not, you give it to us, we get to sell it someplace off. And they give us $250,000. We went off and made the fucking movie. So it was another case of like, just fucking shrink the budget. Fuck it, man.

Like, we'll just do it by hook or buy crook. But I'd rather, you know, stick with someone that I know or I believe in. Or, you know, I mean, let's say I went with their version of chasing Amy and shit. Like, you know, obviously we all love John Stewart. David Schwimmer, beloved from friends and stuff, and Drew Barrymore, no slouch whatsoever. Got to imagine it might have gotten attention, maybe even more attention,

because those people, a little more famous or whatever to fuck. So it's not like that would have been the worst version of fucking chasing Amy, but it's just not the one I had in my head. And because I stuck with, like, the version I wanted to make, and, you know, and it wasn't like, I'm implacable. You give me $3 million.

Like, I'm fucking bent hard where I was. I was like, look, give me $3 million for the movie. Like, no, I'm like, I'll suck you dick. You know, like, I dropped it right down into the basement with like, give me $200,000 and shit. So in that instance, I'm obviously amenable when it comes to the budget and shit. I was not amenable when it came to the cast, to the muses, not Jason Mews, but the people who inspired the movie.

Like Ben was Holden McNeil. Joey was like Alyssa Jones and stuff. And Jason Lee, I'd seen him. He's been in Mallrats with us, but I saw him in my friend Malcolm's movie give this amazing performance, a movie called Drawing Flies. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm underutilizing this kid. So I wrote him a much meatier part in Chase Gamey where he got to be funny and he got to be like, you know, like he got to act as well. So how was I rewarded for that? Then Affleck became a major movie star and for a fucking good, long stretch of my career, it's pretty easy for me to get movies made because I'd be like, well, I'm in it.

and of Jay Mews and, well, Ben's coming, you know, and they'd be like, here's the fucking money. Same thing with Jason Lee. Jason Lee went on to become a fucking movie and take TV stories. And Joey, she got the Golden Globe nomination for chasing Amy. So, like, it was worthwhile. It wasn't just like, you know, I'm pig-headed and I want my way.

I was willing to drop the budget to do what we did. And it never occurred to me to, like, trade up. I see a lot of directors. I'm not like shitting on anybody, but I always see directors who like seem to work with whoever's hot like at the fucking moment and stuff. And nothing wrong with that.

It's fucking good business and shit. Everyone loves a movie star. But like Ron Howard's that kind of guy. Like whoever's hot at the moment, like for a long stretch of time, he was in the Ron Howard's next movie or something like that. I've just never... It's not a heat seeker.

My heat I seek is more like, now I know how to write for this for this chair in the orchestra. Like, I know how this motherfucker plays, so I can really fucking put a piece together, compose a piece, and conduct a piece that's going to sound like fucking magic, man. Now, you know, yes, if I put Eddie Van Halen

in that chair, everyone's going to be like, holy fucking shit, it's Eddie Van Halen. But just because this cat ain't Anna Van Halen don't mean that they're not going to fucking shred. I love it. That's brilliant. Let me, all right, this is rapid fire. We're just going to, this is honestly, these are quick good luck well it's got you know hey you know rap it's rapid fire it's called shit talking with

kevin smith these are like from my patrons they're awesome they're just so supportive of the podcast they're asking some questions so honestly you could just be simple because you you you've probably heard some questions so you just rapid fire kef yeah he's got to change he's got to make his hat he's got to fix my hat this is the speed at which these questions are coming he's got to get that one's be blown up uh all right i'm just going to fire him off lisa h rumor has it mall rats two script has been written can you give any details in the plot yeah the plot is uh it takes place in the present post covid covid's part of it it would have to be um brodie bruce uh dealing with the the death of mall culture the original

mall rat himself facing his own mortality uh along with the mortality of the fucking all the thing he loves most in life um going on an adventure with his uh teenage daughter i like that i james r which here have you connected with the most and why that man for sure i don't know why because i'm not rich and i've never honed my body to physical perfection and stuff and my parents like well my dad's dead but my parents were never killed in an alley my mom's still alive um but you know he's so romantic um on some level the idea of unlike superman who is a god from another planet you know um or unlike spider man who's bitten by a radioactive spider you know batman is the achievable you need of money and you need a lot of time and a lot of emo but you know it's just a guy out there you know

trying to fucking make a difference or whatever so i've always loved that story even going back to child that adam west was you know my first batman um and i've and and the neil adams detective cover with batman crucified uh joker holding that giant card that was like one of my first comic book so batman been in my dna forever even though i don't identify with him one i owed it well also batman the animated series which I was voiced I voiced a few things in that's how Harley Quinn your daughter was named Harley because of that I mean the anime series I played a bunch of characters

and I loved it Andrea Romano directed what I loved her Bruce Tim Mikey what's been your favorite part about working with your daughter in movies you know my favorite part about working with the kid is just like you get a second bite of the apple to make pretend with your kid you know because at a certain point

kid grows up and you can't be like hey man let's fucking play dolls like you miss that window that window closed and you know we played all throughout her childhood like luckily i had a job that afforded me a lot of fucking time around my kid as she grew up and stuff but at the same time you know bittersweet at a certain point it ends like i always talk about this one story with her where like i remember we were playing hide and go seek in my bedroom and you know there's only like fucking three places at best to hide and we've been playing it for over 20 rounds and she was like again and i was like oh kiddo there's nowhere left

to hide, man. I just go see Nan and Pop for a little while and stuff. And, you know, she did, you know, she went off to see her grandparents or downstairs at the house. I remember, like, hearing Harry Chapin Carpenter in my fucking ear singing about the cats in the cradle and shit.

Oh, forget it. Like, you know, your kid wanted to fucking play with you. I thought about it as she got older. I was like, there's that one day where I was like, oh, kiddo, like, go see Nan and Pop. We'll play hide-and-seek tomorrow. and we never played high to seek again. And I blinked and the kid was beyond the age if I didn't see.

So, you know, I felt like, wow, I fucked up. Like, even though that song existed and shit, you know, I felt prey to the bullshit. Like sooner or later, you know, you're just like, oh, there'll be time later in time. Girl was just like me. Don't make me fucking cry, though. You're going to make you cry. But the thing is being on set with her makes up for that. Like, suddenly, I'm an adult, she's an adult, but we are making pretend.

It is like she's a kid again, where it's like, ooh, you stand here and fucking say this. I'm going to stand here. Well, I'm not going to say anything. But like, and Jay is going to be this guy. Go. That's cool. Yeah.

That's fucking cool, man. Carly Teague, Chasing Amy was a beautiful love letter to being young and in love and the endless possibilities of and fluidity of romance. Have you ever considered revisiting the topic with characters in their 30s or 40s? No, no, because chasing Amy was, I love chasing Amy as a wonderful movie. but I had to go through painful fucking shit to make Chasing Amy. You were dating Lauren.

Joe, yeah, Joey Lauren Adams. Yeah, we were dating. The movie's kind of based a little bit on our relationship to some degree. Was it hard dating someone who's the lead actress in your movie? No, it was wonderful. I think it got hard after the movie came out. Because, you know, suddenly we were

every piece of press we were doing was together and you know the story was just like the director and his girlfriend the star of the movie and stuff and you know for me that's great for Joey you know I'm sure she at a certain point as much I know she loves

Chase Gaming and love the role and stuff but you know she didn't come to this business to be an appendage you know what I'm saying like Chase Jamie was even though she got nominated for a golden globe and shit like that you know it was I got a lot of attention for the movie because it had a nice little comeback story to it like mall rats was should have killed

them but oh shit who knew we had this in him and stuff so that played a part I remember like Joey told me like she went to a meeting at ICM and the agent she met with was like are you still dating Kevin Smith and she's like yeah and he's like how you think that's going to last after this. She's like, what do you mean? He's like, and, you know, I remember she came home from that meeting. She told me, I was like, number one, fuck ICM.

Don't be rep there. But number two, dude wasn't wrong. Like, we wound up breaking up shortly thereafter and stuff like that. So I always say that our relationship was sacrificed on the altar of chasing Amy. We had a cool little relationship, but then it became fodder for the movie. movie, which, you know, I never regret because it was for her. You know, I was, of course, you know, I was head over heels for Joey. And Joey's dream was to be taken seriously as an actress.

She was, her first role was, you know, she was the girl who took Bud Bundy's virginity on on married with children. And she was, like, super tight with Parker Posey. And Parker Posey, the year before, had done party girl and like fucking broke huge and every, you know, every magazine newspaper wrote about her. She was like the girl here and stuff. And, you know, that's what Joey came out to be and stuff. And so, you know, we were in a relationship.

And there's a line in that dire strait song, Romeo and Juliet where Mark Knopfler sings, I dreamed your dream for you, so now your dream is real. Remember I hear that I always think about Joey and Chase Amics? That was her dream. And like, you know, I was like, all right, I'll fucking dream your dream for you.

and it became fucking real. So it was, you know, it was beautiful. Like everything that I've, only positive things came out of dating Joey, including the movie itself, chasing Amy. But since the movie became the basis for the stuff in the movie, it was a little too close to the surface.

And, you know, just eventually shit broke down. Pretty, you know, not too far. Let me see, January of 9. we were at Sundance with Chasing Amy in April of 97, it came out in theaters, and then we broke up in July a few months later and stuff. And we had dated for like a total of two years. But, you know, I can never feel regret about the relationship ending. You know, I'm in a marriage and I've been married for years and happy and she's in a marriage she happy to. But more importantly, that little snapshot of our entire fucking relationship and the dynamic, because I was very much.

much like Holdenberry, like, jealous and shit, is preserved, like, you know, and, and it also gave both of our careers, like, an incredible boost and stuff. I'm so, yeah, well, I'm so glad when I said rapid fire that for that question, you fucking, no, I am, I am, because if you were a rapid fire, that, because that was beautiful, that's a beautiful, it's like this, it just will live forever, you know, that moment, it's a moment in time, it's a beautiful thing. It's just, I'm glad, thank you for that. last one jason w kevin i wanted you to know your heart attack motivated me to see my doctor as i had been sick for about three months i changed my diet began exercising by june july of 2018 i no longer had congestive heart failure thank you brother for being my motivation to make changes

that fucking rocks i mean the heart attack uh many good things that came out of the heart attack one of which was like i went vegan and wound up dropped a bunch of weight and fucking my cholesterol dropped and And, like, you know, I'm in truly, I'm not in great shape, but I'm in better shape than I've been, like, almost my entire fucking life. That was a positive that came out of it. The perspective, once that happens, you're like, now you don't, I don't wait for anything. Now it's like, we ain't got time. We got to go because fucking tomorrow I might drop dead and shit. But the side benefit has been, you know, because you go out there and tell the story and stuff. and I was on like Colbert told the story,

a bunch of talk shows and whatnot. And the story gets out there and people, like aside from like, you know, entertaining people for a bit, and it's a good story because, you know, if I'm telling it, it means it ended well. Right. But the wonderful thing has been so many people,

and I mean, an incredible amount of people over the course of the last two and a half years have told me a very similar sentiment where they were like, your shit, scare the fuck out of it. me and because you're not much older or younger than me or I look exactly like you or fucking I live exactly like you eat the same shit I'm sedentary I'm like you I don't fucking work out whatever those cats saw it as a wake up call like which is incredible because I you know for

years people have been telling me do something about your weight or whatever and my wake up call was literally like you know I was this fucking close to drop in debt so it's nice that people out there took my wake-up call as their wake-up call. So when I hear that, like, I like, you know, I don't really have existential moments and stuff other than when I'm like, who are these people? And I look at the frame pictures on the wall of my eyes. Hey, hold on, shut up! Thank you.

I hear that all the time, no words. You always wonder, like, you know, I know I served myself in this life. You know, Clerks is fucking, like, not a day has gone by since 1993. that I haven't said the word clerks and stuff. Everything kind of worked out professionally, even personally things worked out and stuff. But you wonder like, you know, if I wasn't here, did the world benefit,

would it have changed? And because of like, aside from the movies, people are like, oh yeah, I like those movies without you that wouldn't have been a clerk's like, never mind that. Me having a heart attack and talking about it,

like made a lot of people fucking like check themselves and literally saved their lives. So, you know, at the end of the day, like I felt like, right on fuck whatever else i did like you know when was i ever gonna save a fucking life you know what i'm saying like i ain't batman and yet in that way of going like hey i almost died here's a funny story but you should fucking take it seriously because i'm not that old and i almost fucking dropped dead because that bunch of motherfuckers are above ground today that makes me feel

buddy i mean that's what i mean the show it's like just little things like not big things like that but when you say when you tell your story it's just it's amazing how i had no idea the impact like just whoever listens when they hear that story it might just give them a boost to be like hey you know it's that's it when you see somebody who has so much fame so much success and you're self deprecating so you'll talk about the bombs as well but like you see that and you're like death will go it it goes after anyone it doesn't matter who the fuck you are he's successfully shooting a movie he's doing something at a club and he's gone under redstone just passed away uh you know made it into his 90s but like sumner redstone

controlled paramount biocom at one point one of the richest men in the world of multi multi-billionaire and stuff it don't stop the inevitable like you can't buy off death or anything like that so take care of yourselves he sure certainly did he made it well into his fucking 90s but take care of yourself it's always worth spending an extra buck or two to look in on your health because you know i know it's tough financially in the world and sometimes you got to figure out whether to pay fucking rent for food but neither of those things matter anymore if you check out so always take the extra buck if you have to spend it on yourself man like you do for so many people in this fucking world you do for your parents you do for your boyfriend girlfriend you do for your kids you do

for strangers you do for friends do for yourself look in on your your own health just make sure everything's okay because you never fucking know dude you're glorious i i can't thank you enough for your time and your insight. It was an absolute fun. We can do it again anytime you want. I'm going to hold you that now. Come on fucking Spodcast. We don't do pictures.

Dude, I'll do whatever you want. Come on. Done and done. I'm around. You tell me. That way I get to interview you the whole time. I love that. You can ask me anything.

I can get deep. Sweet. Dude, all my love, all my health. Love to your family. Be safe. Thanks for coming on. And give my love to Jason. I will pass it on.

Thank you. Excellent talking to you. It was a great time. You too, man. That was awesome. Just a good guy, right? Just a really nice guy. Had a lot to say.

Had a lot to say. It was one of the episodes where, you know me, I'm a yapper. I didn't yapt much. No, it's sort of like... Let the man who knows what he's talking about. He just goes. Let him go. He has a lot to say.

He's interesting. He's very smart. He's incredibly humble. He's got great stories. Let him go. It was easy for me. I just sat back and go, yeah, dude. Great.

I love this. Keep talking. It's easier for me, too. Mm-hmm. It sure is. What are you saying, fucker? It's easier for me when you shut the fuck up, Rosenbaum. Sorry for the F-bombs.

I normally don't do as many F-bombs, but I did some F-bombs. Also, make sure if you really love the podcast and you're a fan, you want to support it even more. We have the lovely Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N. You go to patreon.com slash inside. I've got a wonderful community. There's so many people there that have become friends. There's message boards.

There's inside of me where you ask me questions. There's, and I dress up as another character asking me the questions, there are shit talking where certain tiers get to ask the guest questions. There's live YouTube's where, you know, we just have a little concert on a Sunday. Tons of fun stuff for patrons, and it's a great family, and I think you'll really enjoy it. And if you want to support the show in an extra way, great. If not, just you listening is enough. Once again, thanks for listening, and please subscribe.

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I'll eventually get to them. Whether I get back to you, it just depends. If you're saying, hey, love the show, you know, if you have a two page email to me, you know, it's not going to be, you know, it's hard to read two page emails. It's like, just try to say it in a paragraph. How about a sentence? Is that a lot? I mean, I know, look, people write letters and I read them and I love them.

But sometimes, you know, these message boards, it's just easier if it's, I have ADD. It's okay to edit some posts. Yeah. Write your feelings and then, you know, let the English teacher and you guide you. That's right. And I don't remember English class. Remember the inside of you online store. 15% off if you use the code Rosie.

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undisclosed location undisclosed Hollywood Hills location along with my engineer friend slash editor extraordinaire Ryan me

see you guys see you guys Hi, I'm Joe Sal C. Hi, host of the Stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this edition that we're adding. $50,000. I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing, everybody. and we're out of here.

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