Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Mark Sheppard

Episode Date: October 1, 2019

We kick off Supernatural Week today with the one and only Mark Sheppard. Mark stops by and shares on and off-set memories he’s made with the cast of Supernatural, how he reluctantly got roped into a recurring role as Crowley, and what it was like for his character’s departure from the series after eight seasons. Mark gets deep this week and opens up about his experiences throughout his previous three marriages, his former struggles with substances to cope with ongoing anxiety, and some special memories made in the industry with his late father, the voice actor legend William Morgan Sheppard. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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before we get started and get into it thank you for listening plug in my new show with Chris Sullivan and in love with Michael Rosenbaum and Chris Sullivan. And it's a great podcast. I really put, I'm pushing it. I hope you guys like it. If you like this one, I think you're going to like that one. So subscribe, right of review. I will also be signing autographs October 18th in Columbus with Tom Welling. Madison, Wisconsin, 25th of October, November 8th, Austin, Texas, November 15th. I will be in Germany playing with my band Left on Laurel, which we are going to do right now. I'm going to let you know this coming Friday. The album's out, Left on Laurel, saved by the ground, is the title. You could pre-order it now on iTunes store, and it's all available on all platforms

on Friday. And hey, merch and all that stuff, you can go to the inside of you store. I'm really excited about this. And hey, have a listen. At the end of this podcast, we're going to play, in fact, this whole week, at the end of each podcast, we're going to play a song from the new album, and I hope you listen to it. I hope you like it. Tell me what you think. Right now, let's get inside Mark Shepard. Great story. Talks about the whole crew of Supernatural coming to his wedding. He's an intense, fantastic drummer. His relationship with his dad, it's intense, man.

Let's get inside, Mark Shepard. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. You're not married, are you? What do you think? God, that's always the fucking question. Why do you think that?

Because you're not married. Yeah, I mean, but I think it's obvious. You look at me and you come to my house. You see hockey jerseys everywhere and toys and... Well, I guess... Successful hockey players are married. That's true. Oh, yeah, he wants you right up there.

Oh, he really wants to be home. Well, you know, you are the voice... At least you were the voice of the BBC, weren't you? I was the voice of BBC America for a while. So why would you want to get close to that, Mike, so everyone can hear how sexy you are? Do you know how I got that job? It's so cool. If it's...

Okay. Like, I'm so not the typical actor that goes out and I, you know, I get this and I get that and I do commercials or whatever. I had the worst ever disastrous commercial audition in my entire life. For this? No, for a Coca-Cola commercial. They took me to a car. I was a lot skinnier and a lot fitter back then. How old are you?

54. Are you really? I am. Fuck. Tyler. By the way, Tyler's here, folks. Rob couldn't make it today. Tyler's fitting in.

So give him some love. Tyler, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm here. I'm not at home. playing video games. Is that normally what you do? Waitly, yeah. What video games? Undertail. I just played Undertail.

Okay. Well, I've got a 19-year-old kid, so he plays stuff like. He's about as old as Tyler. Does he look 54 though, Tyler? Yes. I mean, if you're telling me that he's under 100, I'm a little surprised. Jesus. Tyler, you look like you're probably honestly. I thought you were in your 40s. Thank you. Do you need a job as an agent? I'm not. I swear to got a shot me. You saw my, my look was a genuine like, what? I was born in 64. I was the youngest drummer in all those bands. So I was playing Robin Hitchcock in 1981, 1982. Wow. And you're still touring with Robin Hitchcock. And then going back out to go tour with him 30 some odd

years later. It's weird. Oh yeah. So I was going to tell you. So I go to this commercial edition and I had quite a big, I think I was with Innovative or something at the time. And I went to this audition and there was all these buff surfer dudes and me. And I'm tattooed and bright white. I'm as white as a human being can get. Most people from England are pretty white yeah yeah mostly irish so so it's an interesting thing so they're like so the girl's got a head cold she goes okay everybody take take your clothes off i'm like what so everybody take your clothes up and all these guys just start stripping i'm like what is going on here so take my top off and all these guys like six but i mean i was yeah but i was i was reasonably cut back then but i was

like it was terrifying i'm like bright red and she just looks at me and she goes Are you sure you're in the right place? I was like, oh, my God. What was it? They'd sent me to a Diet Coke commercial when they were supposed to send me to a Coca-Cola commercial and it was a completely different audition. So the Diet Coke, they wanted you to take your shirt off

because Diet Coke means six guys in a boat, some weird thing. Couldn't you have been the guy that drove the boat? I could have been the guy that shot them all and killed them, which was probably the rest of my career. Are you mortified? I was like, I went, I'm never, going on an audition again. So I never went for an on-camera audition. I don't think I've ever gone for an on-camera audition. Not unless they ask me. Because I always had these, uh, for many years

growing up, like in, uh, you know, after college into New York, I had these, uh, fangs, like, uh, Steve Buscemi shit. Me too. I had the same. Yeah, it's Steve Buscemi stuff going on. And, uh, I had long hair and, uh, pleather jackets. So I looked like, you know, Steve Bishamie. Well, yeah, I guess so. You've seen his new ad for his new show. He's got long hair. The teeth. Yeah, and the teeth. Yeah, it's great. Well, you know, my My manager, like then in 1999, goes, listen, fix your fucking teeth. Yeah. And cut your hair and you're going to get leading roles.

And I go, oh, my, I've never heard somebody be so honest in my life. And that's what you need in this business. Like, Tyler, don't ever fucking say anything bad about my guest again. But anyway, I started getting roles because he's right. Yeah, exactly. No, no. But, I know how much you were. Same exact thing.

Yeah. This woman looks at me and her and her and her and her casting partner looked at me. And she goes, you have a. think of getting your teeth fixed. I'm like, I was like, oh my God, I was mortified because I was doing really well. Everything's going really well. It's years and years ago. I'm like, she goes, you're a good-looking man. You want to play villains for the rest of your life? I wouldn't got my teeth fixed. So there are photographs that people present of me from a certain show where I'm smiling and I have dog teeth. Oh, I have those. And I like, I always sign over the mouth.

You're still embarrassed. Still, still embarrassing. Isn't that something? English teeth. Mine were because I got punched in the face. And they just started, I just, I felt, you know, the fangs started around them because they got punched dead on in the mouth. Bending it back. Yeah, they bent it. They bent back. And I just was like, you know, when he said it, I was like, you know, I like playing villains. I like playing, because it was the same sort of thing.

I was going to play odd, weird character is funny. And I was like, you know what? Let's give this a shot. What's if I get some teeth that look like they're normal, they're not these giant buck something about Mary fucking teeth, then it's okay. And my, my dentist, by the way, Linda Siegel, man, I'm trying. I'm throwing her because she's like... She's good. She's the best.

You're good teeth. Right? They don't look... No to mine. Nor do yours. There you go. So don't ever do that again, Tyler. Yeah, Tyler.

Fuck, man. A guy with teeth like that, you can't say he looks like... 100 year old. My teeth will last 100 years. That's true. They will. I may not. Thanks for allow me to be inside of you, Mark, Shepherd.

We've talked about this for a while. They're like, I'll come on, May. I'll come do it. I love the idea. I've got that grab me that fucking voice. I have that voice if I want that voice. My father. actually has, uh, or had a voice that was an octave deeper. So his voice was in this range.

So as an actor, he was always, uh, like an octave below mine, as he'd say. Now, you guys were, I mean, you bring that up and like, he just passed. He passed, uh, January. I brought him home. How old? 86 years old. Happy. My dad was always a brain. He was always a mind. He was a, it was an actor. He's in the Royal Shakespeare Company. He's, he's in every film. ever somewhere in something from transformers to the prestige to every video game ever ever made from you know um name them afro samurai to he was every he was the colonel in medall of honor remember all the meddle of honor goes colonel hargrove that was his voice so he just he would always do that stuff he just hundreds and hundreds of things so legend of the seeker he's the

voice he was in the doctor who with you well that's because they they said so when do you want to come over and do the prosthetics I went when he just asked my dad and they're like do you think he'd do it I said course he'd do it's doctor who so I called him up and said you're doing doctor who he's like all right that was hysterical so wait so he was happy his brain everything was no he was starting he had a heart issue um and he got a bleed he he he told my mom look I need to go I'm bleeding and uh he was getting ready to go and have a hard up have valve up and the bleed was going to stop him doing so he had all the medications to thin his blood down so they had to take him off all that stuff etc anyway at the over 80 years old it's never a good idea to spend too

long in a hospital and they spent about five weeks just constantly trying to work out what was going on and he deteriorated and deteriorated at one point he turned full pirate which was hysterical because i love my dad being crazy what's he doing he he on at nurses no no no it was worse i walked into a room of my 19 year old tattooed son and there was six guys around the bed and he sitting there strapped to a bed full tense one eye he has one eye makes him look even crazy which is great why do you have one eye because he has one eye has he always had one eye he wasn't growing one in the middle of his face but he's always when he was a kid they used to when you were born they used to use a silver nitrate solution to clean placenta out of your eyes

or something and they used concentrated and scarred his eye when he was kid in 1932 and he had he never had sight until he had an eye operation they tried to give him sight at 25 and he It didn't work. So it is eye taken out. And that's when he decided to become an actor. It was amazing. Like just the weird stuff. And there's a really good glass.

I always had a really good glass. Isn't that way? Isn't that weird that he decides to become an actor when he has no eye and we've got this fucked up teeth and we're like worried him about that. We're mutants. Your father has no eye and he's got the balls to go be an actor. These guys take off their shirt at a Diet Coke commercials like, ah, motherfuckers. My dad was a pirate, truly.

My dad was in a month. Do you drink like one? He was, no, he wasn't much of a drink. I was 29 years sober. So, congrats. Yeah, I read about that. 29 years. Yeah, it's a long time.

But my dad, my dad had his two front teeth missing on a plate. And I was like, I never knew whether my dad was telling me the truth or not. But he said he was a merchant sailor when he was like 17, 18 years old. He joined the Norwegian merchant navy because they didn't have rationing. All the British boats had rationing. So he joined the Navy of a country he has no affiliation with and became a Norwegian sailor, which is insane. And he didn't have any tattoo. he doesn't know it's like I was going

I don't know if this is true until I went to the Maritime Museum in Oslo and actually I pulled him up and his boat and the whole day on a picture of his boat going under the Sydney Harbour Bridge so he did all this stuff when he was a kid and he was a really bad stand-up comic he was a terrible stand-up comic

but he tried it he copied everybody else's stuff and he gave it a go and he wasn't sure what he wanted to be and then he had the whole eye thing and he got really depressed and then they stuck him in a room classic they stuck him in a room with a blind guy and he got very comfortable

afterwards. So that's not my phone. Mine's on vibrate. Oh, it's the computer, just turned the sign up. Tyler's fired. Tyler's first day. He's already insulted again. Two strikes. That was probably me, because the sound's usually off on that thing, but I play a little music on the side, you know, telling me late at night. It's muted now. We got it. I love to you went to your sexy voice for that. I'd play the music late night. That I use that when I'm playing music. I'm listening like Val Kilmer from the doors. Why don't you suck a fart out of my ass I'll you remember that's why I never liked the doors

did you not like the doors guy you're kind of a harder guy kind of no I'm not I got listening to black music not listening to to a lot of white music I didn't like a lot of white music you don't like a lot of white music I didn't I do now I appreciate the doors now but I'm again this huge route because I hate the Beatles sort of massive big deal with everybody that I hate

Curtis Armstrong like can't handle me go back to the dad for a second go to dad it's easy yeah so said my dad goes and joins Rada he goes to Rada the Royal Academy of Dramatic and he's 24, 25 years old, 25 years old. And he goes to Rada and he goes, gives it a go. And he gets in and he's the oldest guy at Rada. They're all like 18, 19.

So he's there with all these girls. He's so happy. He goes straight. Did they like the one eye? The girls like it? Did he pick up the ladies with the one eye? He was a always picking up. It doesn't matter if you have one eye or, you know what I mean?

If you have a personality and it's just like, I think that's a big part of it. Well, John Maurice Davis said, God, your father used to just take his eye and put it in a the people spaghetti and stuff like that. Him and Lee Omerkern, they'd take their eyes out. It's kind of weird. But you get used to it. But I grew up thinking, you know, every dad had a glass by the side of their bed with an eye and a couple of teeth in it. Right.

And it's just the strange. It's a great memory of my dad. So you hit that, that was true. That's what he had. Yes, but his teeth and his eye. Yeah, but my dad and my mom worked together when I was a kid. Did that fuck you up at all? I don't know.

Well, you know. How old were you? I've been married four times. Have you really? Yes. You're in your fourth marriage, and you're 54. My last marriage. First time, you were probably married really young.

The last time, the first time, no, it was 89. How old were you? 64, 89, 25. So 25, 35, 45, 45, so 30 years married four times. Yeah. 30 divided by four. First one was my green card and I need to go out of the country and go and come back. She knew it?

She also got me sober. Yeah. So brilliant. You guys are still friends. I haven't talked to her in years, but she's really successful. which is really happy and she has a wonderful life. Brilliant. I'm really happy that she was okay so that one was the green card second one was my

pregnant girlfriend that couldn't get pregnant and what do you mean a pregnant girlfriend who couldn't get pregnant? Well I got worried because I'd help we have you know we work in a great industry that has health insurance when we're working right and I was like that's okay I can I can take care of us no problem let's just get married so we got married and and that lasts about 10 and a half months and I have a nice ugly uh, uh, More recently, it was ugly, but 90s. Really? Why would it get ugly now?

Because I have a 19-year-old boy. And what kind of conversations do you have with the ex? I don't. You can't let him do this. No, no, no, no, no, no. None of that. We were in court for three years when he was 12. So he had a really rough time of that.

And I just got through that and got through that past of that. And I had another long-term relationship that was married. And I have a 13-year-old boy from that. And after all that was done, done after I was done I was sitting there and supernatural was like okay so you got to be a series regular I'm like season 10 yeah and I was like I don't want to be a series regular I can make more money to go do what the hell I want I was doing doctor who I was doing white collar I was doing finishing up warehouse 13 I'll do whatever the hell I want they go so we need you on Friday I'm like

yeah I'm going to my son's soccer match I'm not coming so I literally could do whatever I wanted to and they were like take it or leave it if you don't do it we're going to write you out and I'm like okay so I just got divorced I'm like do I take the money what do I do I do? Do I just fold? And I was like, screw it. Maybe I'll go do it. So I went and did it and I signed up and it cost me money. You know, you actually made less money as a series regular than I ever did as a guest star. Why is that? Because you have to pay your own expenses. What do you mean? You're not Canadian. Yeah, but I was getting paid more money as a guest star. Wait a minute. This makes no sense. So wait, you're getting paid more as a guest star. Why wouldn't you say pay me what you

paid me as a guest star because it was more than what they paid me as a guest star but the ancillaries paid for your hotel yeah they paid for your transport travel everything and if you live up there you realize it's like you know you're spending 10 grand a month i did i did small vote did impasse up there i know what it's like up there so it's 10 grand a month just to function there just to function flight up and down how many episodes um i didn't i never i never wanted to do that many i think we ended up with i never wanted to do that money you sound like me and i don't want to work it was not that i don't really the greatest the look we'll talk about it because everyone wants to know about supernatural crap so i haven't even asked you one thing about supernatural i know i know but this what we're

talking about what's that this is the one i love that's all you talk about yeah yeah no it's all everybody talks about really but they just got picked up for the 15th season i mean that tells you a lot about that show i love the boys the boys are amazing all three three of my favorite people on the planet i actually love everybody i work with there so much so that when i got married to my wife i said to my wife, I said, I can't just go around and pick people to come to the wedding. Can I invite everyone? And she was like, yeah, good idea. So I walked out and sat one day and I said, I want you all to come. To the crew? Anybody wants to come, please come. And we got married in Pacific Palisades on the week hiatus you always have around Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving.

People change their plans for their, for their holidays. People diverted their flights. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Jensen, Jared, and Misha came. Oh yeah, everyone was there. they all came your wedding plus painters plus grip department electrical what it was fantastic that's the most amazing thing I've ever heard in black tie and gown beautiful best dressed people I've ever seen did the part was the party unreal it was inside

I actually picked a band I'm a musician I picked a band that was so good I wouldn't get up and play with them who are they well it's actually a guy um called Earl Alexander is a jazz guitarist and he has a wedding band that is a 10 piece wedding band with horns And I went out and I said, listen, all I listened to is R&B. There is nothing.

You play one Mara Carey Simon and said, fire of the drum kit. I said, you play anything that ain't dirty, funky, sexy or cool. We're done. They were dancing before food was served. The dance floor was full of Canadians. Right, before, for Canadians. Absolutely. You got to love them.

Absolutely rocking the floor to one of the greatest bands I have ever heard in my life. You said R&B. What America calls R&B? Well, when I think of R&B, I think of, you know. Otis. Yeah, but I think of, for me, I think of like the cheesy 80s. No, no. But I like that.

Yeah, I mean. I like the James Ingram who just passed. I love him. Teddy Priner, guys. Just once you don't want to hear the, can I finally find a way to make it? Do you know what my wedding song was? Was it an R&B song? Al Green, God blessed our love.

You try to find it. That's hard to find it. So that's a little R&B. Oh, beautiful. I don't know if you like the same. You don't like Yacht Rock, do you? Yeah, I like a lot of things. Do you like the Little River Band?

I love Little Ribbon. Like Friday night, it was late. I was walking you home. We got back to the... All that stuff for me, I worked in a drum shop when I was 12 years old. I was making records of 15 on Rough Trade. So I played in bands that influenced every other band. So I played with Robin Hitchcock.

I played with the TV personalities. I played with all those bands. I started School of Fish when I came out here. I've always had that weird thing. So, ancillary bands, backing bands, Mr. Robin were like R.E.m. So those all started. So I know all those musicians in the weirdest way. And then the supernatural thing again. I got sober and I stopped playing drums. I was recording with a band called They Eat Their Own. Great record I did with him. Some called, I need you like a drug.

And you were sober. I was loaded. I was loaded. I couldn't walk. I was that messed up. So you just could not handle your alcohol? Yes, I couldn't. I was a professional. I drank my way. Could you function? No. That's the great. thing in my life is I didn't function. You were like that guy in Grateful Dead, what was his name? Not Jerry Garcia. The other guy, the guy that just did all the drugs and died like years ago, years ago. You don't know.

I don't know the names of the group. But anyway, you just like let loose. They're like, oh, Mark's fucking shit-faced. No, I'd get faster and weirder. It's just I couldn't handle it because I had, years later, I mean, conversations with Robin. It's like, he can remember me when I was 17. It's weird when you know people and they know everything about you, but they remember

you. A certain way. But they remember you perfectly. And it's not a mean thing. He just, he remembers all the good things. He was talking to me one night before we started playing. And he was like,

because do you ever think your anxiety had anything to do with your drinking? I was like, shh, freaking out. And it was. I equated, I played in bands. I played on a bank called Light a Big Fire.

I opened the Joshua Tree Tour at Crow Park, big Irish band. You two and another big Irish band, Lidabu. So us and and the Pogues and Lou Rie. and you too opening the first night of the Joshua Tree Tour

which is incredible and we played to like 30,000 in summer but this is 100,000 people with 200,000 outside and everybody knows who you are and I just remember being terrified and the abject fear that I had and that I was daily drinking

because I couldn't cope with the way that I felt and yet my drinking was having huge problems physically on me so by 25 years old I was done and I got sober in LA 2nd of January 1990 I didn't know it was

But how did you I had no idea But let me ask you Started on the first You just hit something that Like I want to talk about it's like Because I get anxiety And I know a lot of people get anxiety

But so you're saying you had such anxiety That you drank to cover the anxiety But how did you deal with the anxiety Once you were sober What things did you do? I didn't play drums I quit playing drums That was the whole point

I quit playing. So that's your way of your anxiety. Since I was 12 years old, I stopped performing. Are you telling me I should stop acting? No. I then became an actor because somebody else asked me to. And acting give you anxiety? Well, I picked the most, God, I picked the worst profession.

Yeah, I don't want to make, that makes no fucking sense. I know, but it's like, the slight masochist in me is like, somebody goes, well, we're doing this play and we try to find everyone else. Do you want to do it? And I went and did it. And they said, then they went, well, who do you want to direct it? Do you want your dad to direct? I went, no. They said, well, who do you want to do it?

We've got Billy Hayes. The author of, the United Express. And I was like, yeah, let's get Billy to do it. He wrote Midnight Express. It's his story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's his, that's what he did on his holidays. Actually, the first thing I ever said to him was, I suppose you don't go to Turkey on your holidays then. He's about this pick. He hated me at that point. But he did me the greatest acting favor of all time. I mean, I knew I was doing stuff and I never really done anything. I was, you know, 17, they tried to put me in films and do stuff and it just didn't happen. It didn't work out.

There was a film that they wanted me to do and I came second to somebody else who went on to do really great things. And then they offered me a film and I turned it down, which was really stupid. And I just didn't want to do it. And that's what I'm talking about, the anxiety, overwhelming fear. And you know people. Well, how do you feel when you, when you say overwhelming fear, what are you saying? What are you talking? What are you feeling?

Tell me, go through what you feel like when you have this overwhelming fear. If the monster in front of you is bigger than the monster behind you, you run backwards. If the monster behind you is bigger than the monster in front of you, you run forwards. It doesn't mean you feel great. It's just if the fear of not doing it is less than the fear of doing it, you do it. It's weird. And you find a lot of people who deal with mental health issues, like the ones I have. You used alcohol and drugs to medicate these things a lot, a lot.

And I see this all the time. I've been sober 29 years as a, as a. said and I see so many people that alcohol never was their problem it was the solution to their problem or drugs were the solution to their problem and it's because of just not good mental health states and not great treatment people and then even worse you give people pills that were originally designed to work six months or so like prozac when it was invented was supposed to work six months and he's supposed to do something else with that and people run it for like 10 years of course they're going to drink on top of it and that alters the chemistry of what that does and it's it just

becomes chaos so we have a city that is filled with people that I've watched from the 80s, AA, mental health staff, hospitals, blah, blah, you see, you know, you see everything from, you know, watching, you know, the Carrie Fischer's of the world, or you watch the, incredibly talented people, and made, as we started off talking about, these incredibly talented people, yourself included, who do it, but we don't know why we do it. We do it, because we've got to do it. We want to express ourselves, but it is also terrifying to us. It's not only terrifying, but, you know, what's weird is, I think I've always had that fear,

but usually it was a good fear like oh my god i mean i always was before a show before anything for a movie i'm always like all right like you know it takes me like a second to get going and like i'm in my head and i'm thinking too much but as you get older that sort of that stress that anxiety it's not as easy to to fight off and not have like adverse effects later on so when you're younger what i'm saying is you have like your testosterone you're this your drive you're anything any anxiety in your way you'll get through and you'll be okay you can wake up the next morning you do it but when you're in your 40s 50s whatever and you have this anxiety then it starts to weigh on you because your body's not as strong as it was it's not as but i i had that weight at 25 i had that weight

i can't imagine that the thing is i look at you i look at what you do what's what you do for years love what you do you're a wonderful actor yeah but you've got you've got guts on the outside to look at you from the outside comparing my inside why do i have guts you've you've got balls to do what you do? You got a freaking shaved head on a TV show and you look great and you're unfurking. Dude, you're unforgettable in that role. Think of anybody. I look at what's his name, Jesse, what's his name playing? Eisenberg. I'm like, what the hell is that? I'm looking at it. It's like a bad impression of you. I literally, it went. You know, I can't respond to that. No, you're not allowed to. I'm not allowed to. You can keep going. There's only one person I've

ever seen at tops the Lex Luthor moment of all time. Gene Hackman. I mean, it's insane. To pull the wig off, just to have pulled the wig. of is nuts at the end of that he's he's my favorite i love him genius it's funny i was just sitting with the smallville guys the smallville creators and they were just telling me that it's it's a hard look i i see like when i go to conventions with you and it's awesome to hear all that inside of you is brought to you by rocket money if you want to save money then listen to me because uh i use this ryan uses so many people use rocket money it's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions.

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with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at slur.com. And ask your family. professional for Esselor Stellis Lenses at your child's next visit. There was a lot of fear. Thank God if social media wasn't around then. Oh, God, you'd have been scrutinized. Because I wasn't aware of what I was doing. I was like, okay, the director likes it. Everybody likes it. I'm playing it real. I'm doing whatever. So I wasn't around.

Like, what is he doing? Why is he doing this? Oh, my God. He's going to suck. He's going to, he's not, he's not Lex Luther. He's like, you know what I mean? I didn't have to deal with that. That probably would have. I don't know if I could have handled that. First of all, you've got Tom. So you've not got a Superman that anybody else is used to, right? It's not Dean and it's not anybody else that we're used to. So you've got a completely different format. Now, everybody's, it's like more Riverside than, you know, the motion picture in that

if it had been that way. Right. And the darkness and the stuff that came to it, it was like, you guys were playing a great game. It was fun. You invented something, which was fascinating. But what I want to, like, you go back to the anxiety. You play hockey. I do ice hockey.

I can't play fucking. in hockey. It's terrifying. Why is it terrifying? Well, I played football. I played all sorts of things. I played all sorts of sports. But that takes guts. I don't know if it takes guts. It just looks like so much fun skating on the ice that when you're young, you don't realize all those other things how crazy it is. So you're just like, I want to skate. I want to shoot the puck. I want to. But I was never that kid. I was never that kid that went out there. You were a nervous. I was fearless. What it was is whatever damage to my psyche happened

when I was a kid or whatever, you know, narcissistic wound I received at some point between seven and 15 and 17. I was always chasing something to take away where I was. And that's how I know I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict. Yeah. Because that's the difference. I don't do it like, I can, I've seen you drunk. I've seen you drink.

You don't drink like I do. No, I'm not a big drinker. But you don't drink like I do. I drink. I make the papers. You go all out. Well, I once made the Irish Times for fly fishing. Fly fishing in a bar in Dublin.

On a Friday night with hooks. I have no idea. I don't remember anything. Is you getting arrested? No. I was quite popular. Not as in a famous way, but as it people felt sorry for me. So wait a minute.

Huge people. But then you get sober. But then you get sober and your life changes in this amazing direction. Yeah, but I got sober. I got sober and I went back to the bar that I was fly fishing in. And they said, I'm not drinking now then. I'm like, no. And it's like, you know, we went down a barrel a week when you quit drinking.

One bar went down 90 points of Guinness a week. Just one place. Because people would come there to see you. No, no, me just me drinking. That's my drinking. How much? 90 points, 90, 20 hours of points. A week?

A week in one bar. And I didn't just drink in one bar. That's the only place that's- You're lucky to be alive right now. Not from quantity, from stupidity. Doing things that were getting fights? Oh, God, yeah. I'm not a great fighter.

You don't care, though. I've picked on six for eight crazy people. And you've just got to have the, I'm like, I'm going to die. I might as well, I might as well take somebody with me. Yeah. You know, that's kind of a thing. I once had one of my friends who could easily take me in a fight. There's just no question about it.

He's a big guy. And I was bald and I was up in Smallville and he kept sort of smacking me in the back of the head playfully, but I wasn't liking it. And they just said, hey, it's a good sound, though. It was, yeah, I'm like, and I go, hey, don't do that. my other friends are with me and he goes and I go hey dude come on stop doing that

I know it's funny ha ha ha I'm bald it's cold you like and finally something switched to me and I remember just like I wasn't screaming I go hey I'm telling you this right now motherfucker if you do that again I'm gonna punch you in your fucking face and we're gonna go down

and you're probably gonna kick my ass but you're gonna fucking bleed dude do it one more time and we're fucking going at it he goes dude chill out man but I was I lost my fucking shit so there's something to say when you're a little when you when you go there and someone else is not they're like wow he's really I always knew I'd placed myself in those positions that was the problem

I always knew I didn't that's it's a sort of it's a personal it's a self-destructive personality that's really fascinating it comes in really useful for acting it does when you can tap into it if you can tap into that shit it's hysterical but it's like there's the greatest quote there's two great quotes in acting the greatest The greatest one, I think, actually, is my dad's favorite one from Richard Burton,

which a young Welsh actor asked Richard Burton. Mr. Burton, how do you do the acting? It was just a beautifully innocent line. How do you do the acting? And he said, oh, that's easy, son. What you do is you give the other actor your whole heart. If he doesn't give it you back, you kick the shit out of him. And I was like, that's just genius.

because that's what you're there to do you're there to make it you give everything you have for every reason you could ever care about otherwise don't do the job I always don't tell I get hired I don't care what anybody thinks

of what I do in that what I do but in this context I don't know you got Carrie Fisher chair that's beautiful that she gave it to me that's beautiful yeah Carrie Fisher gave me that chair she's funny I was talking about it

and he goes I don't want it yeah yeah she's a dear friend of mine she's wonderful lady yeah I'm given a role they want me to be the most interesting man in the room otherwise they don't give me to roll Why the hell would you put me on a TV show

Unless you wanted me to be the most interesting person in it What are you going to have me come in the back And put a tree out in the back and walk off It's not going to work It's like, what the hell is that? You know, it doesn't work I've never been that guy I can't blend in

I can't be the guy that goes Houston we have a problem And you know Type the thing in it just I've never got those roles It's never been that You have to make an impact It's kind of make an impact

Whatever I do Right Not always well But sometimes I've been really lucky So they write stuff for me So Battlestar and those things are written for me, constructed for me. I'm like, it's mind-blowing to me.

And they get this a huge amount of anxiety and panic as you read something. Like they know. And it's like, what the hell? And like, you know, Ron Moore going, oh, I got something for you. I'm like, what? He goes, well, three episodes of Battlestar. I think you'll like it.

I'm like, what? And I'm like, it's like, yeah, I don't think it's anything you've done before. It's genius. Do you get nervous when you get a role? Yeah. Do you immediately go into fear mode? Like, I don't want to do it.

No. Are you automatically like, yes? Well, my friends have written me some of the greatest things I've ever done. Joss Whedon? Joss wrote, didn't write me, Badgey. He wrote himself Badger. Did you know that?

No. And they wouldn't let him do it. I don't think they thought he was a very good actor. Really? Well, he was directing it, producing. Right, right, it's too much. You know, write the theme tune. I mean, it's just like insane.

But here's my baby. See what you can do with it. And it's a very different thing, John Rogers, Amy Berg, all those really cool writers that I work with Noreen Shankar. Harvey Grasio, Marks Watch, Ben Edlin, who I love from Dick and Supernatural and everything else. These wonderful, wonderful writers, the ones that Joe Henderson is doing Lucifer

and Stoves, but keeps trying to do a thing with me, and we missed it two or three times. A couple of friends on that. Yeah, it's wonderful. These things are written. These things are created. Some things I audition for. It takes a little audition. Yeah. Some things I auditioned for Supernatural. Really? Yeah, it was great. What season? Season five, Ben wrote the character and the first scene is kissing a 70-year-old man under a bridge. I'm like, now, I was friends with Kim Manors.

I was good friends with Kim Manners. In a very different way to most people are friends with Kimmerz. I don't drink. Kim was a drinker. I used to hold his table at the Girard. And I could sit there with a bottle of Pellegrino. He'd come in with whichever one of his buddies was directing an episode that week and come in and say, come sit down.

I'd give him his table. It was just, it was fun to do. And I've talked with him for hours. and part of hours upon hours for months and months. He's a wonderful man. Yeah. He was a gruff bastard. He was a child actor.

Yeah, I never met him. He was a child actor. And then he directed things like 21 jumps, jump straight. And he was famous for like calling action and riding off on his motorcycle. I mean, total. So, well, half the time. But brilliant. I think he's the one that was responsible most for telling the boys what was going to happen.

I think that's what the boys always said to me. What Jensen certainly said to me was. He said, you're going to get famous. This is where it's going to go. And you can go a couple of ways with this. And they've, I really think. think it's it's testament i mean that the boys families are amazing people i love them lots they've got great parents and and great ancillary their wives and their wives families i know the more they're

amazing people i knew them before they had kids you know yeah same thing right too yeah he was a jensen was on small because he was i know who wasn't he wasn't i wasn't i never did smallville i wish you would have i never did small i never did stargate smallville was the only sci-fi thing i've ever done except you know it was the voice of the flash that was pretty much it's pretty cool but you've done everything. No, I haven't. It's just that feels. You're the only guy in history to do Supernatural and Doctor Who? That's a lot. And it was supposed to be Sherlock, so it was going to be Super Who

Luck at one point. It's just going to be really interesting. I was going to do something in season 2, but it didn't come off. And the character I want to play on Sherlock, they're not going to do. And that's from Mark and Stephen going like, oh, God, we'd love you, do it, but we're not going to touch it. And it's a particular character that I want to play. It makes sense if people know the stories.

But so this, yeah, look, this whole thing are doing it. And supernatists. So Kim was sit there with me and go, are the boys this are the boys they're season one two three and they're like are that great you'd love them they're fucking amazing these kids are great he was in love for what they were doing and what they were like as as men human beings yeah it's just really cool and he was a really he was a he was an asshole to most people he really he didn't like if he didn't like you you're in trouble so he was directing me the first time he directed me and i had a page and a half

of dialogue written by colton eastlake the third who to this day if i see him i'll probably punch him in the throat i wake up in the middle of night screaming these lines but I was on second cherry pages right so this has been changed so many times right and they decide to take bits out of the speech now I'm dead now I'm dead fucking kill him yeah by the way I say if you ever do this again A I'll kill you B you might as well get fucking

Q cards or an earwig because I can't my mind doesn't work like that I can't delete I can't you can't just add a line in the middle of something you fucking idiots especially when it's written not very well and it's all exposition they rarely did that to me on small but that they ever did, like, I'm quoting Alexander the Great. And they're going to add a paragraph.

I'm like, you can't. I didn't know that shit. So, yeah. So the joke is, as I'm looking at this, and we run that time, and we do this candy cane shot around a table with every actor I've ever known in Canada in it. Kim just gets up after one take. I just fluff the middle of a take. I'm going half a page in, three-quarters of page in the fluff.

I'm like brainphrase. And he goes, come on. And I turn around to him in my deepest voice, I'm going, I am doing the best that I can, sir, right, as all the executive producers walked across the floor at that time. I was like, it was a very... Was your heart pounding? It was pounding, and I was pissed at him. And the first take?

Yeah, no, it was second or third run. And I was like, I had a horrible time on that. And I got it. I nailed. I finally nailed. How many takes? About four, five. It was a long...

Sometimes it just is a weird thing, man. It stuck in every place you can imagine. And you know what? Have you ever... He apologized to me and took me out for dinner. And that's when we became friends. That was the first time I worked on him. And he said, dude, we're turning chicken shit into chicken salad.

That's what he said to me. I love that. It's like, okay. And his philosophies of this were brilliant. And his ideas of the show were brilliant. So I knew about supernatural, but I'd never auditioned for it. I've never been offered to do it. Never touch my radar.

He passes. I'm actually taking a message. I was doing, what was I doing? I was doing Dollhouse with Joss. And his brother Kelly was producing on that. And I was taking a message from Dean Devlin to Kelly saying, Dean wants you to produce the next season of leverage Will you go do it?

And I said, no, and how's your brother? And he's like, you didn't know and he was dying of cancer. And he had him in a hotel there. And I didn't want to go see him because they didn't want to embarrass him. And we'd always left on good terms. I didn't want to, you know, embarrass him in any way.

And he was very, and he passed. And he had a profound impact on the show and a profound impact on the boys. And then Crowley came up. And I just started giggling. I'm like kissing a guy under a bridge. But did you? Wait, you didn't have to audition for that?

No, I had to. And I'm going, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going to go in for this. I'm got to go in for it. Kim's been saying, go in, you love the show, you've got to come and do it. The boys are amazing. They're great. You love it. In the audition, you didn't have to kiss anybody?

No, it would have been fun, though. I think I kissed the casting director once for, um, sorority boys. John Papsed Addera auditioned me. John's great. He's the best. Did you kiss John? Did you kiss John? And John, I looked at him and I got in, and we kissed.

We fucking kissed and I got the part. And again, he always talks about that. But anyway, so you audition for this part, and then how many years? Five years, six, seven, seven? Eight. Eight seasons. Eight seasons. I walked onto that set, and the boys were amazing.

They were so kind. Because it's very difficult going on a new set and going, trying to fit in and going, and they're cool. Because they can easily be dicks and, like, not go. Oh, yeah, hi. How's going? And they're warm. They're not even dicks to people who are dicks. No.

They're not. They're just not. You know who they learned that from, Mark? You? Yeah. They did. But I always, when guest stars came on, I went out of my way because I imagined myself in their position and I got anxiety going, I can't imagine you coming in and having to give a speech to me

who's been on the show for five years. And I looked at them and go, hey, this is a family. And they started fucking up their shit. I would fuck up on purpose just to show them. Because I just wanted them to be comfortable. But so I see. That's the Prince Charles thing. What was that?

In the royal wedding, him and Diana. when she fluffed, he fluffed the next line. Really? Yeah, I did it on purpose. It's a protocol thing. It's a gorgeous thing to do. I think it's a gorgeous thing to do. They've always seen me having to chew my way through dialogue

that makes no sense to anybody on the planet. You know what the worst part is? What? How about when you learn your lines, you finally are done with your take, and then when you have to give them to the other people, you can't remember them at all? No, here's the thing. I'm like, what the fuck?

And Tom Wellings, like, just read them, you fucking idiot. Now, mine's worse than that. Chensen's looking at me one day and he goes, him and Bob, Bob Singer. Kind. Okay. We don't know why. When you're doing you're off camera lines, your word perfect. Yep. That happens to me sometimes. And he goes, and when you're on camera, it's like, it's chaos. No, stuff is chaos. Yeah. And I waited a long time to answer him, waited many years to answer him. One day. I know you're going to say. And I said, you're playing the leading man. You don't actually have to say anything of massive import most of the time. I have to say stuff that makes sense to me. to the situation, everything else. It's got to actually be real in some sort of shape of form.

Reading it is one thing. Having it means something, screws in my head. So when I have to say no one in the history of torture has been tortured with torture like the torture you'll be tortured with, somebody thought that was funny to write. Try saying it. It's got to make sense. You probably said it 500 times.

No, I didn't. I said it one time because I didn't want to let it screw with my head. And it needed to be a sidebar to a whole scene. Of course, the director decides to shoot. massively wide close to my face with a massive wide shot so I'm tied to a second part of the scene and so I have to turn around to a boardroom of people who are behind me I'm looking there an event happens I turn around I go no one in this tree of tors been torture we're torture like because it's to them I'll get back to you later was what it became and it worked and the

trouble is finding that thing for me where okay it's somewhat real it has to be real otherwise it's just what's the point you know what I do what I've done this where my excuse would have been why because you always shoot me last because they're the fucking leads yeah or that's one and two uh i'm giving all i got in the beginning and so by the time you turn around on me i'm like you're spent i'm spent they've when i we do you think that's part of it no you don't think that's a valid excuse mark because the boys are very generous the only time i'm not saying they're not generous i'm saying in general i've jensen has sat out the toughest scenes i've ever had to do we did the end of season eight which we shot in sequence which is mind-blown but

best thing we ever did the end of season eight is me being injected with human blood tied in a chair and it's it's insane it's where i'm singing i'm singing bowie i'm what bowie song uh changes what else what else can you sing you sing me the part no what was it what was it just the chorus ch ch ch ch ch ch changes there's an extra chit chich chich changes so the drummer face the strange ch ch ch ch changes um you did you sang Sorry. Did you cry on your last day when you died and sacrificed yourself for the boys? No. You didn't cry? Were you crying out of happiness? You were like done?

No. I spent two weeks saying goodbye to my friends. I wasn't stupid. There's something called the Botchko role in television. Stephen Botchko, big producer, creator. The botchco rule is you never tell an actor that he's done before he's done. Because the type of actors the bochko used to hire would kill people, blow up the set, not show up, get drunk, start his fights. I mean, they had some great crazy actors in this time. Not all of them, but a lot of them were heavyweight dudes and girls that would literally take great offense to being written out.

You didn't know you were going to die? I knew I was going to die. They couldn't tell me I was going to die. So wait, you got there the day when you died? No, no, no, no, no. I knew this. The end date of the series was, the finale was May. I think we shot the first of May.

And they had told you. No, they hadn't told me. They didn't tell you this was it for you. No. What they do, I had these long conversations. And I said, look, the lease is up on my stuff. You're going to need to let me know. I got one more year left of my contract.

It's sad for me, and it didn't really hit me until afterwards, and I'll explain that too. But for eight years, these are my friends. These are people I work with as a family. And I was in shock, probably, because I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do. And I got to the last episode, and Bob was directing it, and he had a really hard time. I think he had a really hard time, either suppressing his anger or not being able to actually have a proper conversation about it, because it's just an impossible situation when you,

when you haven't told somebody, it's definitely not an option. And I sort of made it a little easier for him. I said, you know, that's what's going to happen. And I shot what I shot. And Bob had kept me to the last scene. And it was unfortunate I didn't realize this still afterwards. So he turns to me and he's used to me making speeches or talking. That's what he always used me for.

And he said, do you want to say anything? I said, no, I'm good. Thank you. Wait, everyone and went. And I don't know if he thought I was being a dick or not. I'd spent two weeks saying goodbye to my friends. I'd gone to every single person than I knew. You just got a little choked up, didn't you?

No, it's just my voice. No, not at all. There's things that choke me up. That doesn't choke me up. It was a wonderful thing. These people have been in my wedding. These people have shared a year's in my life. We've been in the trenches together.

They're fantastic people. And I love them all. And they're really, really amazing. There's no animosity there at all. And the weird thing was, is they wrote the last episode, and they sent me the last episode. And I'd been killed two episodes before. But magically, I stay alive. And there was a problem with that.

You couldn't kill me and bring me back without the person killing me knowing I wasn't dead because in the law if you kill me you will see me spark out and that's how you know I'm dead and he's Lucifer and I'm Crowley and that's it and I suddenly magically jump into a rat and disappear and it's so painfully obvious and Andrew wrote this last episode and I read the last episode and I it's not for me to do I have great friends who are writers and I'm not being arrogant or cocky I hated it I just generally went this bears no resemblance to what I want to say or what I want to do and so I was very very careful when I sat with my wife and I craft that an email and I sent it to him

and I said with all the love in my heart thank you for everything you've given me so I appreciate everything that you've done for me and everything you've written me for can you just leave me dead in 21? I just gotta be honest I don't think Crowley gives a fuck about any of the stuff that you're writing about I don't think I care I don't think he cares what it was the response I did it politely

because the man is a you know he's a right he's a good writer isn't like he's a bad writer he wrote me an email back in the morning and said don't worry that's just a placeholder and he rewrote the entire episode and gave me everything I'd asked for, which was wonderful. So I went to work wanting to do that. And I went to work and did that. And unfortunately, what honestly happened was a couple of executives decided to cut all that stuff out. Did this break your heart? No, it just made me go,

I get it. Now I get it. I said to Andrew, I said, look, when you want to kill a character, do it like Rooka Howe in Blade Runner. And I sent him, I sent him Roy Batty. I've seen things you humans wouldn't believe and tax ships on fire off the shores of Orion you know that whole beautiful speech and I know some of the story behind I knew Brian James really well

and I know he stole a bit of that from Brian James' speech the wake up time to die comes from that and you know how much work they all put into it and Eddie Adi Olmos is a great friend I said dude this is where it's at

and he wrote me a speech that is amazing and it's like I've done things which is what Crowley is you wouldn't believe I've done and all of these things and where I should have always lost I've always won and I called Jeremy up years before

and I'd said I said you do realize if you write me losing at any point I'm never going to play that I lose I'm going to play like I did it on purpose he goes yeah you always do which is the greatest respect

he could give me I always win but so I put in this line I got this line I got this line which was even when I lose I win and they put it in and it comes to the end and those of you

who don't want to spoil it put your fingers in your ears If you haven't watched season 12, for God's sakes, what are you doing? Yeah. So I get to the end with Lucifer, Lucifer looks at me and he goes, and he goes, you know you're going to lose. And that's when I'm like, if only you should say that, because even when I lose, I win, and I say goodbye and kill myself,

which is like literally just takes the whole thing sideways. Yeah. They cut out, even when I lose, I went, in my lose, because it was the only thing that was mine. Oh. Maybe cut it out. Did it kill you? No, I made a t-shirt of it and sold it for charity and raised money for diabetes.

God bless you That's pretty brilliant Thousands of people walking around With me my head bowed With even when I lose I went You know that was the same thing for Smallville Like people think you left I'm like no I didn't

I signed on for six years I did seven and I came back For the series finale I did what I was supposed to do And I'm sure that you know They were upset And I hear about it all the time Why'd you leave when you left

And I love the show I loved everything about it But it was time for me to move on That was that Dude thank you so much For allow me to be inside of you This, I mean, these stories are just incredible, and you have such a great perspective, and I just love to have you here. Let's go do some acting.

I'd like to do some acting. We should go do some acting. We should make some music, and we should do some acting. I think we should do all of them. Two things we love. I love it. Tyler, do you enjoy it? Yeah, did you record any of it?

Yeah, it's all right there on the computer. So we're ready to go now. We should do the interview. Yeah. That was the pre-show. That's for the Patreon. And then the new thing is ready when you are, Mr. Demil? Hey, guys, thanks for listening to that episode.

right now it's the first track on my album left on laurel the album's saved by the ground available to pre-order on iTunes and October 4th you could listen to it on all platforms and merches on inside of you here is let's go for a ride track one feels like wasted hope now I guess I got plenty of time too much always laughing and i said too much i think i'm falling apart right now getting myself together tell me how everything you do something crazy coming through now write your name in the sky baby let's go Football season is here. Oh, man. Believe has the podcast to enhance your football experience. From the pros.

One of the most interesting quarterback rooms. To college. Michigan is set at eight and a half wins. To fantasy. If you feel that way, why didn't you trade them? Become a better fan and listen to the football podcast from Believe. Just search Believe. That's B-L-E-A-A-A.

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