Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - MIKE COLTER: Luke Cage Turning Point, Grad School Wake Up Call & Choosing Growth Over Easy Money

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Mike Colter (Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Evil) joins us for a deeply reflective and grounded conversation about confidence, discipline, and what it really takes to sustain a career in Hollywood without losing yourself. Mike opens up about early support versus later self doubt, nearly being pushed out of grad school, and how proving people wrong became fuel rather than resentment. He talks about why Luke Cage changed his life but never defined him, why he values trust over prestige, and how self worth comes from being comfortable alone. Thank you to our sponsors: 💪 Mars Men: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, Free Shipping, AND 3 Free Gifts at Mars Men at https://mengotomars.com ❤️ This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/inside and get on your way to being your best self __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou⁠⁠ 👕 Inside Of You Merch: ⁠⁠https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/⁠⁠ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 ⁠⁠https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show⁠⁠ __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: ⁠⁠https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/⁠⁠ 🤣 TikTok: ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast⁠⁠ 📘 Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/⁠⁠ 🐦 Twitter: ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod⁠⁠ 🌐 Website: ⁠⁠https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At Desjardin Insurance, we know that when you own a law firm, your bar for everything is high. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company, so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. I'm Michael Rosenbaum and this is Ryan Teas. I'm Ryan Teas. I'm here as well.

Guys, how are you? How's your week going? I hope you're healthy and happy and doing your thing and taking care of yourself and all that stuff. I mean, we talk about that a lot. I know I forget to take care of myself and then I find myself just broken. I do. Through my back out. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So I'm going to get an MRI and stuff. Anyway, if you'd like to join, if you're liking the show, if you're here from Mike Coulter, Luke Cage, who's awesome. If you're here from Mike and you haven't heard of my podcast, I appreciate you listening.

And if you like the episode, all I ask is, you know, up you think, you know, this guy's not too bad. Write a review. Subscribe. More importantly, subscribe. And if you really like the podcast and you want to support us, which the only reason we're going is because of supporters like Patreon, go to Patreon. Go to patreon.com slash inside of you, p-at-r-e-on.com slash inside of you. You can go to my Instagram at the Michael Rosenbaum. There's a link tree for cameos, conventions that I'm doing, the Smallville Cruise,

cruiseville.com you can go to to get tickets and much, much more. The inside of you online store has Smallville scripts signed by me. Smallville lunchbox is signed by me and Tom, Shipkeys, a bunch of stuff. So go check it out. It's really cool. The inside of you online store. And, you know, that's all I really need to say today, I believe. Um, yeah, there's, there's lots of other things.

But check out my Instagram and, uh, you know, follow me and, uh, look at the link tree. Ryan, are you healthy? Are you happy? Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I was gone for a little bit. So I just got back. Yeah, I feel like you've been gone a lot. I have been. It's been a whirlwind of a beginning of a year. Yeah. And last night, you, you look, you didn't look tired, but you just seem tired. Well, two days back from Mexico. That'll do you. Yeah. You were just kind of like, I'm here. I'm here. I'm sporting. Present. I'm exhausted. Present in the counter for it. See you tomorrow. Yep, pretty much. All right, let's get into it.

I love this guy. What a great interview. I think you're going to really learn a lot about him. And he's very open, sweet. He's so good, so talented. And I adore him. I just loved having him on it. I felt like I knew the guy.

And I didn't. Let's get inside of Mike Coulter. It's my point of view. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. I've been trying to get you on the show for a while. Dude, you know, when you started, we started doing podcasts, I had never done a podcast, and Kristen was like, hey, Mike's doing podcasts.

And I was like, I don't know what people on podcast talk about. And I was just like, I was thinking I've seen them, but I also didn't know, like what I was supposed to talk about or like, like, it was just strange to me because I hadn't done them yet. Right. And so I hadn't prop the chair yet. So when she asked me, I was like, you know, it's been a while. I was like, well, I was a little nervous. So I was like, no, no, because I, I, she said, yeah, he's cool about it, but he just doesn't know if he wants to do a podcast yet. He doesn't really. Yeah, I needed to pop the cherry and I need to figure out what it was because, you know, we used to doing stuff.

It's always like, you know, talk shows and chat shows. And it feels like such a laborious thing. And you have a... Hey, what do you do now? Your new project. Yeah. And it's also like, you know, it's like the worst part about it is they pre-interview you. Most of the time you do it. And it's like, it's no spontaneity. I know. You tell the story once. You tell it twice. I think the only time I hadn't done that was with, I think Trevor Noah didn't do it. I think that's what I think he didn't do it. And you like that. Yeah, I think every actor likes that because you just tell it as it is, you know, we have to act. You don't have to cater to it. You don't have to reinvent it or relive it or whatever the thing is. I hate it. I know.

Like I remember one time I was doing Conan and I said, oh, yeah, well, I used to be a recurring character on characters that didn't make the show. Like I did improv, sketch comedy. And I did these kids. And I said, yeah, he used to have me on the show and blah, blah, blah. And I thought for sure he'd want to talk. about it and show an old clip of when I was on the show before I was like, you know, anybody. You know, I was making like 300 bucks a show. It's not bad.

I mean, considering, I mean, for me, it was great at the time. I'm thinking about like before you make it, you know, 300 bucks. 300 bucks to get on stage or get on TV. Yeah. You know, at 2 in the morning because the Conan O'Brien shows at 2 in the morning. That was right. But it's funny. That's how I reconnected with some old friends, by the way, because I remember some guy, my old

friend Kent, Brennaman from Indiana calls me and goes, Rosenbaum. Oh, yeah. Dude, I got your number. I was watching this show Conan or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were, so anyway, the producer comes and goes, yeah, Conan doesn't want to talk about the show at all about when you, you know, that show.

Okay. The Conan O'Brien show, I go, okay. Yeah, he doesn't feel comfortable talking about that. He doesn't want to talk about it, or not the past. Interesting. So I was like, okay. But it was just a little bit, you know, because I thought it'd be fun. And it's like, oh.

Exactly. And also, if you do a pre-interview, sometimes you talk about stuff and they over interview you, like the producer calls you and you talk about many things, a myriad of things. And then you end up not talking about what you most enjoy talking about. Yeah. Because it doesn't fit what their mold. Or they just, they pick out what they want or time doesn't permit. And then you're like, oh, I didn't get a chance to even plug the project you're on or something.

You know, it's just weird. Yeah, that's why I like podcast because you can just get to know someone and people like, I like, you know, they talk, you know, they're open. I want to see their projects more. I want to, you know, I think that's, that's why it's, it's not just late night fodder or, you know, like, oh, the new Tom Cruise movies. Tom, tell us what you're working on. You don't get inside at all. Exactly.

And it's funny because, because the, I guess the first time I did a podcast, I was so still in that mode of like. Promoting. Well, not even promoting. It was almost like there's a format and there's a time constraint. So I was sort of like thinking, okay, this is, you know, I was weird. I felt like I was having to remember that there's. There's, this is just, we're just talking. And it wasn't about like, oh, it takes you a minute.

It takes your minute to get into it. It's like, oh, yeah, we're just hanging out. We're not really. Yeah, we're just hanging out. That's, that's exactly what it is. And some people are like, you know, I've had guests on who haven't done podcasts before. And they're like, is this good. Like, do people want to hear this?

Ryan's heard that too. Some guess I'm like, yes. Sometimes. To be fair, sometimes, sometimes they don't. Like, maybe they do. Maybe they don't. Like, depends on who it is, right? They might be like, I don't like that dude.

Screw you. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny on this podcast, I have a lot of people who say, you know, I didn't know this woman or I didn't know this guy. Yeah. And I really like them afterwards. Yeah, yeah. And you gain more fans because they, you know, I mean, unless you're, you know, you come across like you don't want to open up at all. You want to see anything about anything.

Well, that's why you don't do a podcast. Because if you do it, if you're doing a podcast, you definitely don't want to do it if you are not into opening up at all. I always say, listen, man, here's the deal. If you don't like something, if you're driving home and you're like, I shouldn't have said that. You text me and I'll cut it. Yeah. I don't give a shit. Yeah.

I'm going to make you feel comfortable. Exactly. First of all, our mutual friend, Kristen Ritter. Yeah, we got to talk about her. If we don't plug her. If we don't plug Kristen Ritter, we're going to be, we can't. We both will have to, uh, she might block us. She will.

She'll block us. Block us on social media. Silent treatment. Yeah. She, she'll, you'll text her and she will take extra long to get back to you, if at all. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, not you, though. Because you're, you're real, like, I'm close with her, but I think you're family. Like, here's what she said, by the way. Okay. I asked her, I said, Kristen, if you want to say something to Mike or you want to tell me something about Mike, please do. So it wasn't just a sentence. What? Honestly, he's one of my favorite people in the world.

From the first day I met him, I just feel so grateful to have been on a journey with him. I'm so grateful to have him in my life now. Neighbors, our families, our friends. I go to Pilates with his wife. My son was in love with his daughter when he was just a toddler, obsessed. He's one in a million, smart, charismatic, so funny. easy, so easy to be around despite being one of the most handsome men on the planet.

Well, geez. I love acting opposite him, and being with him has always just felt so easy and comfortable. I love Jessica Jones and Luke Cage together, except when Mike eats onions and tuna fish sandwiches before kissing or our love scenes. Oh, yeah. Well, I think that happened once. I know. She was just

she weighed, well, I might have actually done that. We've all done that. Yeah, because you didn't look at the call sheet and you didn't realize, we're kissing? We're kissing today. And then you're brushing and flossing and it still smells like, I know. I know you're trying to be healthy. You're like trying to get good light meal, some protein next to you know, you're like, oh, and you're so conscious of it, too. You can't fix it. You're inhaling when you're kissing. You're inhaling. Once you eat tuna and or you can't undo that, you know, well, that's so nice you said that. I mean, it's not done.

Lastly, she said, Mike's a special, reliable friend who's had my back and made me laugh a million times. He feels like family to me. I think you guys are going to hit it off big time. So, well, that's, I mean, if I, if somebody read that to me and I didn't know was about me, I'd say, wow, that guy sounds great. And I don't know. I'd be like, wow. Do you agree with it? I wonder. I wonder. I'm sort of, I'm very self-aware, but I'm also very, sort of very, I'm critical and more critical of myself than anyone else. I don't hear, I like hearing nice things because it makes me feel like I'm a fraud sometimes. Yeah, and also I think I've tried to, I've kind of given up on this idea that I can work on taking compliments of any kind. And I think it would be nice and I'm still, I'm still have hope, but I'm very uncomfortable with that. I'm sure it stems back to childhood. There's no question about it. There are things about me that I'm still wrestling with. But it's nice to hear. But I'm just trying to still always process kind things about it. And I don't know why that is.

I mean, I do know why. But I guess because I haven't really addressed it and really sort of taken it on. Because honestly, I don't think it's that big of a deal if you can't take a compliment. Because it'd be one thing if you couldn't give one, you know. If you couldn't give one, if you weren't kind to people, if you didn't hype people up, if you weren't supportive of your friends. I think that's a bigger issue. I think like, you know. And also I think, you know, you got to have something that's wrong with you as an actor always.

You're never going to be. I have so much wrong with me, Mike. So much wrong. You can't fix it all. So much wrong. So wrong is right. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Yeah. I mean, you talked about, you kind of skimmed over it, but like things when you were a child. And I think about that. And I think about self-worth. Yeah. And I felt like I didn't have a lot of it. I didn't feel like I got it. You know, as a kid, I didn't feel like I was smart.

I didn't feel like I was good enough. No one made me feel like that. So I had to find that. other things like trying to validate myself through acting and all these things, these accolades and whatever. And so you go to therapy and you start realizing how it happened, what happened, why you feel that way. And you think at some point you just let it go. But for some reason, it's, I always say it lingers around like a cranberry song. You know, that's my quote. Listen. But I just feel like I still feel the self-worth sometimes isn't there. Or I don't, I have

tough time accepting compliments because I never heard them. So, and if you don't hear them from your parents, like, you're smart. Yeah. I was always the done kid. I was this. You know, it's hard later in life to sort of accept them. And if you do accept them, it's very ephemeral. You just feel it for a few seconds and then it goes away.

Yeah. You know, you don't really, it's not sustainable. Yeah. So is there something like as a kid you didn't feel like good enough? That's so funny. You know, it was almost, gosh, it's almost the opposite. And I talked about this with friends or maybe I don't know how many people I've discussed this with. But there was a time in my life, I guess, where I grew up in the South and I feel like I had very supportive teachers.

And everyone believed that I could do almost anything I set my mind to, even when I was young. Like it was weird because I remember, and this is in the South where there's a lot of... South Carolina? Yeah, there's a lot of bad stuff going on down at all times. But I had a different experience, but I still saw the... specific and sort of, I don't know, unique position in place that I was growing up in the world. At one point, I think my state was like the dumbest place on the planet. I kid you not. Like it was that time of...

Mine was the fattest. Fattest. Most obese was Evansville, Indiana. Oh, Evansville. Yeah, exactly. Evansville, Indiana. Yeah, yeah. So we, you know, I grew in a place that I was excelling. I was quote-unquote smart or had high IQ according to like my teacher, my superintendent. And they all supported me. I think I had such an interesting childhood. My mother wanted to be an actress, never really figured that out for herself because she moved to New York and had to move back because her mother was sick.

And so that didn't pan out for her. So I took it upon myself to sort of follow this dream or have this dream sort of be realized for her because it, wow. Yeah, I connected with that. And I wanted to be, you know, as a youngest child, sort of, my mom had me, she was, I think she was 36 when she had me, which back then was, was like, like really unusual. That's older. That was much older. Everyone who saw my mother or heard how old she was, thought that was my grandmother.

So it was, I grew up with that sort of weird, you know, complex as a kid, like, sort of like my mom's kind of grandmom age. That's what they thought. And so I had support. And I guess all that support, even through going to college, I had this mentor, Scott Blanks. And I just, I still keep in touch with him. I just texted him a couple days ago, I think. And when I go back home, sometimes I'll shoot pool with him. But he's shooting blanks. Shooting blanks. Shooting blanks. Shooting with blanks.

Shooting with blanks. And he's a really cool guy. I just have had a lot of support. And then I got to grad school and I started studying acting. And then it started kind of destroying me because there was where it was like, all right, rubber meets the road. We're going to take you apart. We're going to pull out everything. We're going to break you down. Then we're going to see what's left. And then we're going to put you out in a real war and see if you can get a job. And then for me mentally, what happened is I had to now manifest all kinds of chips. and injustices for myself. So instead of being, like, bullied or having all this stuff from other people, I became fairly fairly aware and very sort of dialed into all injustices, whether they were small slighted or not. So every time somebody slighted me,

I was hyper aware of it through grad school because I was taking it. Well, I was taken it and I just used it as fuel because I was prove them wrong. I was, yeah, I needed it because there was so much going into the grad school. school that where I had sort of I wouldn't say I had it easy but I had people supporting me and they thought I could do it they thought I could be whatever I wanted to be they thought I was like

most ambitious in high school was voted most ambitious I saw that yeah people were like yeah you can do it you can do it it it wasn't a surprise to anybody but then when you get into the when you go in with that now you need get you need gas in the tank because that's not how the real world works you know and so once I started getting beaten up in grad school need more substance yeah well you yeah and then you need more you need more um character you have to just Discipline. You have to have something that's going to knock you down. And so ever since then, the mental, the gymnastics for me was all the people that doubted me, whether it was small, whether there was a couple teachers in my graduate program, which was probably more than a couple, quite a few. Because I had to show them. It was like, oh, yeah, you're this, you look like this. You think you're going to do this. And it became this thing where I think they were against me a little bit, a little bit. I think everybody was sort of against me. That's in my mind. That's how I felt like. I felt like most of my class. world. Yeah, I felt like even most of my class was against me and I had to hold. Probably because you're good. Well, I don't, no, you know, I was, I was, to be fair, I will, I will say that the first year I was lazy. I was lazy because I had come in with this sort of like, I've been doing. Like, what is there to fix? I'm most ambitious. Oh, blah, blah, blah. And I came in and they tore me a new one. And I realized that they were judging me by the degree of which they thought I could succeed and you have your own barometer. They're not judging by what everybody else is doing. What do we expect out of you? Like, it's like, uh, You know, Mike, he's got a lot of talent stuff, but he just doesn't have the drive.

Yeah, I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't prepping. I was, I wasn't doing all the stuff. I was, I was a Meisner guy. I didn't do all the stuff. And then I, and then when I woke up on probation, almost got kicked out of program, then I, then I had that happen. This show is sponsored by Better Help. March brings International Women's Day, a moment to celebrate women's strength, progress, and while recognizing how much they carry every day with so many unseen. responsibilities, their emotional well-being can easily get overlooked. Women deserve a space to care

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Yeah, yeah. They had been out in the world and done stuff. Right. They had tried it. They had worked in theater, had a couple jobs. Right. Some of them were equity probably, you know, maybe SAG. I'm not sure about SAG, but they had worked a little bit. So they were coming back with an understanding how serious this was what they were doing. I was coming in like, you know, I'm still like an undergrad mode. I'm hanging out with kids kind of my age who were still in the undergrad program. I'm hanging out partying a little bit. You know, the work was sort of like, okay, I'm here for the work, but, you know, I'm having a good time. And boy, you know, every time I came in that class, I was getting hammered, you know, hammered. Yeah. Because I wasn't doing the work. And, you know, I always think that if you're hanging out with a group that doesn't have, you know, ambition. Yeah.

They don't have a desire to be better, a desire to go forward, move forward. That kind of keeps you in that place. Well, you need to start talking to people and being around people who have kind of your vision and where you want to go. Yeah. Your work, you know, their work ethic reflects you, like, what you're going to do. Yeah. Did you start changing your game? Well, I think it was too late for me to sort of change.

changed my reputation on a dime. I had had a year of just like, he's that guy who doesn't take things too seriously. And, you know, he's got potential and he's got all this stuff that he could be doing and maybe he'll be great, but he's not going to do it. So it was kind of people had written me off a little bit. But then by the time I got my second year, I changed teachers. Maggie Flanagan, luckily let me stay, did not kick me out. I was on probation. And I went to Bill Esper, God rest of soul, great acting teacher. He came in and he came in. And he, he was a kid. He came in. And he, He was no, he was no, um, bullshit. And no bullshit.

He was on me right away. And I took it upon myself as a challenge because now I was looking around like, wait a minute. I was looking around literally. I was like, I had the whole summer to think about it because I saw a good friend of mine who was also in the program receive her letter, her walking papers being kicked out of the program. I was there when she received it.

And I remember that could have been you. Oh, certified mail. She got it. It was like telling her she was out of the program. She was devastated. Then I had to walk. I was walking. I walked 20 minutes to my home, a place I was staying at the time, to check the mail because I was like, whoa.

I thought I had it too. And that's when I realized I had a second chance. Making some layoffs. So they gave me a letter that said probation as opposed to. So I did get a letter, but it wasn't that letter. It was a letter for probation. So it was same package. Change your ways or you're out.

Oh, man, I came back. I was like, I forgot, Bill Esperie called me. I forgot. He likened me to this character from like this Jack Lemon movie. I forgot the name of the movie. It was an old movie. It was a sailor or something. like that. I did a 180. I did a 180. I wasn't worried about what anyone thought of me. I was in my own,

like, I was in a cave. And I was just like, do the work, come in. I don't care about plays, what plays I'm doing. This is all nonsense because when I get out of here, the real world is going to start and I'm going to kick ass. That's what I was doing. I was like, I got two more years to get this degree, to find an agent, and I got to get out there and I'm going to make it happen. And this, all this other stuff is nonsense. It's white noise. It's not going to matter. I looked at it like high school at that point. I was like, this is high school. school. Not peeking here. I'm out. And I was just everything, every class, every scene, every assignment.

Everything was just like, I was like out for blood for my own self, my own psyche. I was just like, I didn't. And you crushed it. Yeah, I think I was doing things way different. And I did not. Everything was just like, you know, wasn't good enough. And I don't think I've ever gotten out of that mode now because you no matter what success you have, it's just like, well, you know, it's always fighting for something. It's always fighting for something. Nobody, somebody's always not going to, you know, you're not going to get somebody

wants you to read for something that you should get offered for. You got to take that personally. Somebody wants you to like, you know, somebody doesn't think you're right for this part, you know, even if you've done something and you're like, wait a minute, you should be happy. No, they don't want you to, they want to, I had a, I don't say his name, but I remember a few years ago, several years ago, I had a producer was like, I met with him. We talked. We talked on, on FaceTime or Zoom about a project. And it was a new, a new show. And I was like, and I don't, I don't want to say, but the part was something, that was different than a part than I played before, but I knew no question,

I would kill this, would be perfect for me. And they were saying, well, you know, you just, you know, cage and this and that, and you're like, you know, this guy. And I'm like, as a producer and as a writer in our business, as you know, the creatives, you're supposed to have an imagination. Like, you got, and when they come in a person,

sometimes they don't. They don't. A lot of times they don't. They don't. And he was telling me that I wasn't right for something that I was more right for than anything else I had ever played up to that point, just based on who I was, but he didn't know that. Because you're playing a role and all they see and, you know, physically and all this

other stuff. And I'm like, I get that. You know, like, everything's limitations. Well, he played a bald villain. He's, he's, good actor, but like, he's bald. He's bald. I have hair. I'm not that guy.

I'm not that smart. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not diabolical. I'm not this. Yeah. And so you're fighting that. Always proving yourself.

Always. It doesn't stop. And you still love proving yourself. Well, that's why every time I try to find a job or the next job I take, it's all. always something different not to be comfortable. Because I think you can make more money taking the job that is just like the job you took last time because they're offering you that almost every time you get a job. I can do that.

You can do that. They're offering you that. But I always say that's the short because once you do that a few times, then they go, well, he definitely can't do anything else. Whereas if you muscle your way out and you just sit still for a bit, do something that wasn't expecting, they're going, eh, but then you pull it off, they're going, huh. And if you do that enough, they'll stop. then they won't know what to expect of you.

And so I'm still trying to fight that battle because sometimes disappearing for a minute. Sometimes just laying low. Yeah. Or just taking the job that's low profile. Yeah. You know, as opposed to a job that's high profile, that's going to be more seen, but it's still on that same lane. Yeah. You know?

Do you love working just to work? Are you one of those actors who you have to be on set or you're going to be miserable? You know, it's funny. It's like feast or famine. It's sort of like you feel like there's not an abundance of anything. And especially now, we know that this is. is changing. I'm at a point now where I really, I really think I'm like, I want to work, but, and I love being on set. But I'm also, I'm also enjoying life, whatever life that is that,

that is sort of presented to me now. And I do not see myself being the kind of person that will be working. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like, honestly, I feel like every job could be my last job, not because of the business, but as much as I don't know that. I don't know that. that just working for work's sake is is enough is enough you know I 100% you know that's what I mean like because it's just like especially if you've had a good experience and you've actually done some stuff where you're like this felt good and this is why it felt good and you can't get that it's tough to just do something that's not like that at all yeah the working conditions aren't like that at all

we're not talking about money we're talking about people you work with the the materials substance so I'm always like prepared for for that day when just maybe I won't see anything that makes sense or that's just not worth it or whatever, that kind of thing. You know, aside from doing favors for friends or doing stuff that's like, hey, you know, you're doing it's because there's a reason for it. Yeah.

But yeah, I don't eat, sleep, and breathe the desire to. Like you used to. I do for the right thing. But when I see stuff that's not great, I just can't, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Million dollar, baby, I can't believe that was your first role. I know you've talked about it a lot because I've seen some interviews and stuff. And, you know, you said something about,

A Million Dollar Baby was one of those things where the casting director, you know, you audition for it. You don't even know Clint Eastwood was a part of this or. Well, I knew he was, but I did know that he was going to be in it. I knew it was directed. Or Morgan Freeman or any of that. No, none of that. And I tell the story quickly because I really love the story how it kind of happened. Yeah, well, I had come in.

Phyllis Huffman, right? Phyllis Huffman. She was of that. Old school. Old school. Was it, is it? Mariam Doherty? the casting director did a casting by was a documentary and i believe the casting director the legendary

cast director dority marian dority i believe it i hope i'm saying her name right um she was the one who who had was the mentor for all these great cast directors like you know ellen chennaweth ellen lewis you know phyllis huffman um i didn't see that you didn't see it was a very i went to the premiere i believe i'm i'm not sure why i was there maybe it was because phyllis maybe the network with all these casting directors well well i was i was really i was really excited about it because i loved Phyllis. I love Phyllis, but I also loved all the cast and directors that were affiliated with anyone that came from that sort of tree.

Yeah. Because when, you know, when I started, it was about casting directors. And, you know, the idea that everyone thinks that they can do that job. It's like our job. Everyone thinks they can act. Everyone, because they don't see the artistry in it. They don't see it because if it looks effortless, they think they can do it. You know, they don't see the difficulty in it.

They have to see something in you. They have to see something that no one else sees. And they have to prove to that director that this. This is the guy. Yeah. This is your guy. Yeah. You literally have to trust someone to do the job that they're supposed to be doing, right?

And they're like, if you're like, if you're like, if you really think about it, as crazy as it is, and I talked about other disciplines, companies that do well, the CEO or the boss, I mean, they really do well. They allow people to do their job and they hire the right people and they trust them. It's rare. Rare. It's rare. Rare. Because the people that stand around always wanting to do everyone's job because it. They don't trust anyone.

They're insecure. Most likely they don't know how to do any of those jobs. And the fact that they don't know how to do those jobs bothers them. So they're hovering because they want to have some input and they want to have control. Yeah. Because they don't have the knowledge. And when you lack the knowledge of something, it's a mystery. And that mystery baffles them.

And so for creatives, when you're not a creative, you know, when you're creative, you're born with it. And there's something there inherently there. And people who don't have it are puzzled and confused by it. and they don't understand it, so they don't recognize it, and they can't figure it out, and it bothers them. And when they can't figure it out, they try to get their hands in there. It's like me being a mechanic, like being in a mechanic shop.

I don't know cars. No. You know, I love cars. I don't know cars. Let them do. I got guys that do the car work. I don't do my own car work. But if I went to the shop and stood over them and just leaning over their arm,

you know, what's that? What's that? What's that? And every time they made a decision, oh, and they gave me a choice. and I would always have my input. Well, you know. And then if he said something and I go, man, why are you doing that? Why don't we try this?

Like just to be different, just to change. Oh, he thinks is this. And they can't do the best job. No, because I'm always giving my opinion. Micromanaging what they think. If you do that with anything, you're going to ruin it. And so there's that part of it. Let the people around you do what they do.

Yeah, if they're good at it, they have an eye for it. It's like an interior designer. Let them do it. Let them do it. If you see the work they've done, just hire them to do that way. I did that when I directed my first film. And I remember, I was like, we got to get footage of the football team. And I got to go to this other scene.

I'm leaving it. Rosie, we could take this and we could, we could shoot. We'll shoot some stuff. Okay, you'll shoot some blocking, some plays. Yeah. It's like, yeah, so-and-so played football. I go, yeah, you can just shoot some stuff. Go for it.

I love what you do. Go for. And it was great. Yeah. I just said, do it. Do it. That's because she had the right people. And so I guess so Phyllisuffman, so she did, she gave me one of my first film jobs.

It was a small job on something called Brooklyn Lobster. I didn't know at the time that she was casting. Maybe I did know she cast for Clintis Wood. So when she told me there was something coming up with Clint and I was like, yeah, okay, sure, yeah. I literally by that time you've been, I've been rejected or miss so many. Sure. Sure. I'm in.

I'm going to audition. Great. Great. Another opportunity. I know. I'm going to do my best because I'm still fresh. and I'm still doing 100% at all times because I tell people,

if you audition, what, if you audition back then a hundred times, you get one job, you're doing okay. If you get it down to 30 auditions per one job, you're doing great. If you get it under 20, you know what I mean? Like the, you just gotta keep taking swings.

100%. Or if you're really strongly considered or you're in the running. The pin in you, put the pin in you. Yeah, that's, if you're not, then you're probably not in the right business. You got to be in the conversation. You got to be in the conversation.

You got to be in the conversation. So she told me this. I went in. I put it on tape. I didn't expect much. She came back to me and said, you know, he liked your tape. I'm going to do some adjustments. Oh, Clint saw my tape.

He saw my tape. He happened to the same thing with me. Keep going. Yeah, so he saw my tape. I'm like, okay, now I'm real dialed in. Do I box? Absolutely. Of course, I never boxed.

Never boxed. Never box. 100% whatever it takes. You're at horses? Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. Bear back or with saddle.

Whatever, whatever you want. Whatever you want. Whatever you want. Backwards, I can do that too. Right? Whatever, you know. And so when I got the call and I was in a restaurant, I was, you know, it was one of those life-changing moments where I was like in shock because I had read the script and I'd already told my agent at the time months earlier that this was going to win all of the awards. We're talking a year before the movie actually goes to the Oscars.

I love that movie. I'd already knew when I read it, I go, this is going to win everything. Please God, let me be in it. And when I got cast in it, it was like, whew. So bar, you know, bar was high. Big Willie Little. Big Willie Little. Bar was high.

I was on set with a bunch of legends. everything went as I thought it would go. And then after that, it's like, all right, now you got to find another job. And I was working in a restaurant. All I was getting was offers for, like, another boxer or something like that. And here I am working in a restaurant. I don't have a lot of money. But I didn't want to do anything athletic.

I didn't want to do any sports movies. I didn't want to do anything that looked like it was what it was before because that wasn't me. Right. I just wanted to act and do something different. And I was determined to just... I'm a liar. I'm a liar. I'm 100%.

And I do really good job. You got to let me roll into something. else. Let me let me let me yeah but deep down you knew yeah boxing I could pick it up I could pick it up I know I could do it I could do it I can fake this I can get this done yeah I can do this you're athletic yeah I can figure this out you know you just have to figure it out have to what was it like like working with those like I my first big movie funny enough was Clint East Woods it was called midnight in the garden and evil oh yeah same thing happened I was in New York and I went and read and um you know I put this little Southern accent on it, and I just did this thing.

Then I didn't even know what the name of it was called. It was called Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, but when people ask me, I go, I just auditioned for some garden movie. And my agent called me and said, hey, they want you to come back in. And I went back in, I was like, all right, and the cast director, and it might have been Phyllis, but she's in L.A., right? Well, what, I think she was in New York. She was definitely in New York.

Well, she was always in New York. So it must have been her. Must have been her. And she said, well, Clinton. Clint saw the tape. I go, wait a minute, what? Yeah, Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers, it was a Midtown somewhere. Yeah, Warner Brothers. Clint casts from tape.

Yeah, only tape. And I go, okay, he just wants to see again, wants you to be a little more subtle. And I did it. And I got it. And three days later, I flew to Savannah, Georgia. And Clint comes up to me and goes, Michael, I just want to say he did a fantastic job. Yeah, if you do what you did in your audition, I'll be very happy. Yeah.

Yeah. And I looked at him and I said, you could fire me right now. I'm not excited. Yeah. I'm just happy to be here with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so you hung out with all those guys? Yeah, I was sat around. You know, it was, it was the best, it was literally the best experience because I was in LA, they fly you out first class. They put you on the sunset. I was staying at the Windham Bellage, which turned into the London or something. Yeah. But I'm right around the corner from the whiskey, the Viper Room. You know, it was just one of those moments where I'm like, I got a little per diem, you know, hit you with the cash. You know, that cold cash your hand. And. Never had this much cash in my pocket. I got my rental car. I had just moved from LA a year before to go back to New York so I can try to like figure out life because I, you know, at the time my wife was, had to get her doctor's degree. So we moved back so she could finish her dissertation or whatever, right? So we moved because of that. So I'd gone back to New York and all the work was in L.A. So I had to get a job and go back to L.A. to be flown out and put up.

And I was just having the best time. It was like being, it was just weird because I had never been flown first. class. I had never this, never that. And it was all the first time. And then, and then getting on set and the effortlessness in which he works and how. He doesn't say action. No. And his DP, uh, green. What can me see? What was his name? He goes, uh, Michael, are you ready? Yeah. All right. Yeah. And that's enough of that when it's not. How'd you feel? Yeah. It felt great. All right. Moving on. Moving on. I said, yeah, that was it. That was it. That was it. You're, you're, you're, you're, I wouldn't say anxiety.

If you're prepared, which is what you have to be, right? Yes. Your preparedness is probably over shooting what its expectations are a bit in some way because it's almost like you're expecting like whatever you do to not be good enough. That's what you're thinking. Take after take after take. Yeah. You're just like I'm used to.

No. No. You come in and you know it. And we're going to move. Yeah. We don't have time. I hired you because you know this part. Yeah.

Because we're going to have an eight hour a day probably. I hired you because you know how to box. Because you know how to box. And ride a horse. Yeah. This is it. You're going to do this now. This is it.

It was literally like, oh, in the boxing thing, I mean, I went and trained with Martin Snow down around, I think it was around near the World Trade Center. I forgot the name of the street. But it was pretty intense because I had about a month and a month and a half. Oh, that's plenty of time to learn how to throw a punch. It was plenty of time to learn that you don't want to get hit by a punch, learn how to throw one. But also, that's the cardio.

Like, the boxing was so intense. Three minutes? Oh, three minutes. It feels like the end of your life. When you're trying to not get hit and to hit and to protect. Oh, it's a lot. And then imagine the round after round after round. Yeah.

Yeah, I've learned now it's really the people that are really good at it because you're really good about changing the way you breathe. Yeah. And you're also not nervous because you know what you're doing. The anxiety of boxing is half the reason people can't box because they're so exhausted by the fear. It's all stamina and fear. Oh, yeah, cortisol. Everything is. It feels like life is, it's all about fear.

It's all over about, it's about overcoming. your fear no matter what we do. We're always nervous about something. Can I do it? Can I do it? Can I do it. You got to get over that hump. Everything is kind of like that. And to your point, our business, our profession, but anything, I tell my daughters all the time, every time she has something that she kind of is nervous about and she kind of doesn't want to do, I say this to her because I don't think I knew this at her age. So I try to impart this to her. And I say, if you're willing to look like a fool for a little while, you will be able to be a master at some point if you keep at it.

If you're just willing to look foolish and start the journey, whatever it is that you're going to do, you're going to be better off, better at it than you were when you started. Because no matter who you're looking at, no matter how good they are, they were not always good. And they came at it in the beginning and they were awful. You have to fail. You have to fail.

And it may look bad. You can fail and fail and fail and fail until you stop. failing as badly. And not worrying so much about failing. Yeah, because it becomes, because once, yeah, once you do that, you know, the feeling, you're okay. The feeling. I'm alive. Yeah. My daughter, my second, my youngest, she's a gymnast now. She's like doing gymnastics. She's competing. She's, you know, just started. The first one was last, this weekend. And she's seven years old. And she was nervous. And I sat in the bed with her and we talked about it. And she was worried and she didn't want to go to sleep. And she was really, she's really good.

Probably one of the better ones in the class on the team. And, but I don't tell her that. I try to keep her, you know, because she needs to have someone, she needs to have something to go towards. Yeah. So I said to her, I said, you know, look, it doesn't matter. I said, I said, once you do it, it'll be over. And then we'll just get some ice cream and we'll get some pizza and we'll just go hang out. It's just going to be, it'll be over. Like, because you've done it. You've done it so many times. You're just going to do it. And she said, well, there'll be so many people there. I said, baby, no one's going to be looking at you. Trust me. They're only going to be looking at their own kid and they don't know you. There's

a lot of people there. You're going to be there. And the only people that don't even pay attention if maybe the coach and me and my mom and your sister like nanny came like if you just it's not that many people are watching you it's just like anything else and if you don't want us to watch you i'll turn around you want me turn around because i because i'm very i'm very conscious of that like her at this stage of like not adding any pressure so what i'll do is i won't if i'm in the crowd i don't stand up i don't make yell her name out i try to like just be there she knows i'm there yeah i'll say everybody sit out like don't don't you're a dad yeah just sit out relax you're good dad she knows we're there she's looking at us and stuff

and everyone's like waving like, stop waving at her. She sees us. She knows we're here. Stop distracting her. She's here to perform. She does not need us to do, this is not a football game. I always felt like I had to be perfect at everything.

I had to be great at everything. I had to be this and everything always felt like that. I never felt like it was okay to fail. I never like I never learned that. And sitting that carried on, it was carried with me for a lot of my career. And you just have. to prove you're like you're proven to everybody and you're proven to yourself yeah but then you

prove it and then the next time you're back at square one imposter syndrome always comes back up imposter syndrome always comes back but it's really nice as at a young age to hear that because i think in in the developmental years um those are important to know that you are good enough you don't have to be great you don't have to be perfect you can fail yeah i love you it doesn't matter yeah like those Those words resonate throughout someone's life. Yeah. Because a lot of parents, they're not bad parents. They just don't know.

No, no. Because they weren't. They don't, you know. No. And that's why we become artists or actors, because what happens, if you don't hear all those words and something goes off, something, it's always a reason why we became what we became, right? Yeah.

And, you know, worst case scenario, wow, my kids become actors, which I do not want, I do not want them anywhere near the business. I know. So I try to just make sure that they know that they are enough without doing it. anything like needing to be special or needing to have a reason to be loved is the reason most people are performing at the highest degree in anything that they've chosen to devote their life to because they feel like they have to do that much to be seen and listen that's going to yield a lot of wonderful people a lot of wonderful artists athletes everyone right it makes you excel but that also

those people are usually some of the most unhappy people miserable miserable people yeah so you have everything everything and you're miserable but you because you'd ever got that little inner child healed and all that stuff. And I don't want my kids to be that way. I'd rather than be just average mediocre in terms of what they're doing with life, they don't have to be the best at anything. But if they're like happy when they wake up and not feeling like they ever wanted love and they didn't get it, you know, they couldn't have the hugs. Yeah. And all that stuff. And they just wake up and they, you know, and I got to take care of them for the rest of their lives and always give them a little financial aid and do this and whatever.

I don't care. As long as they're happy because what I don't want is I'm living with, someone who's miserable and is because of me. And I got to watch that person as an adult fight things that I caused. And I'm trying to avoid that because I know that's what's out there for him if I don't do my part. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. What's the toughest time in your life, you think?

The toughest time where you really hit a rut and you just didn't, you're like, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this. Have you had those? Yeah, yeah. So there's two times. There's, so in terms of the, because there's things that were important then, but not so important now. So back when cast director, actually,

Alexa Fogel, she cast for her on the wire lot. And I remember this story. I remember I was going in for her and I'd gone in for her over the years and I couldn't get anything. I'd get any book anything with her. And I was like, oh man, this is like she was one of the top ones and had such great project. And I was like my agent at the time,

I remember him telling me, you told me, he said, you know what? Yeah, she just doesn't. She just does. She's not really into you. She's just not, you're not really, you know, that's like, oh, really? I said, okay, so then I was like, again, oof, got to take that and turn that into some fuel because I need motivation. Because if that's what you're saying, then I got to really, I got to turn it up. Because it's all I can do. All I can do is do my best and just keep on doing that, and that's all I can do.

But I can't not do my best and then live with that. So I'm like, okay, dialed myself in. And at the time, we were having some issues, my agent and I wanted a manager. He didn't want me to blah, blah, blah. You know, so anyway, long story short, I go in for it. this thing and I remember I come out of the room and I remember this I was leaning against the wall waiting for the elevator to come up and I was kind of like leaning in the wall and I was just like was in this if you came outside you saw me you could see I was at a crossroads and I remember

she came I remember she came out of the room after I audition and I was just waiting and then she said hey can I talk to you for a second I said yeah I didn't know what it was going to talk to me about I thought she was going to tell me look you're just so bad maybe you should stop or something I don't know what she was going to say right but it was weighing on you weighing on me I was just like you know just like thinking, but I was actually, I remember thinking what I was thinking was I was going to have to leave my agent at the time. I was, I was, I was thinking that at a moment. I was like, it's either him or me and I got to bet on me. And I like, I can't do this anymore. I got to leave him. I'm leaving him. That's what I was thinking in my head. She brings me back in the room and she says to me,

she says, I don't want to, you know, but here's the thing. I don't overstep. But I got somebody who's interested in you. I hope she doesn't get mad. I'm telling the story. But I'm like, I got someone who's interested in you. And long story short, she had, and she basically introduced me to, you know, someone who became my agent. And I think she saw my frustration and I think it was palpable. And I think at some point, you watched me for years, at some point, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but she was not wrong. Everything about it was right. She was just in a rut. I was in a rut. And I was in a rut. And I didn't have support. Passion. Yeah, my agent at the time was not only was he not supportive. He had me doubting my own talent at some point because he was, I mean, everything about

it was like, he was like, oh, you should go network more. You should go out to parties more. Take more acting classes. Yeah, literally. He literally said to me, you know, he literally was like, yeah, this is guy who's also one of his clients. Maybe, you know, you should take a class. And I'm going, this guy, I'm like, that guy? I'm thinking to myself, like, have I gotten so, I need to take it?

What is that? So I was completely like blindsided, but also confused. So that's what he was giving me, all this other stuff. And I thought to myself, like, oh, this is crazy. This is crazy. Either I don't know anything about this business or he doesn't know. Something's wrong. So I was at that point where one of us got to go one of us got to go and it can't be me because I'm with me

You know so she brought me back in and lo and behold She had an idea and she wanted to introduce me to another agent and I said okay. Are you looking? I said I am looking As a matter of fact, I'm getting I'm pretty much done. I'm looking and so that agent and You know he became like the best agent I've ever had he was like in that moment. I came I met him I took my reel I had luckily had my reel ready. I just did I just updated it brought my reel I put my best suit on. I went into it. I went into Gersh and I was like, you know, and it's funny because back in the day I lied to tell people I was with Gersh and I wasn't with him at the time. Really? Because when I meet a manager that I did or somebody that didn't want to be with,

I was just like, because I didn't want to, you know, whatever. And it was crazy because I ended up being with them. And it was some of the best years. But I was at a crossroads. I was at a point where I was working and just budding my head against a wall. And at some point, you know, you reach a point. You like give yourself a little time. You're thinking, how long am I going to do this? Yeah. Before I before I want health insurance, before I want to, like, get some savings. Have a better life. Have a better life.

Because I can struggle on the struggle bus for a while, but then how long do I want to do this? And so that was sort of weighing on me. And it's business. It's business. At the end of the day, it's like, what's right for you? What's right for me? You got to stop thinking about relationship sometimes. Yeah.

If it's not working for you, then we got to move on. That's it. Yeah. That's it. And so that happens, you know, that happens not to that degree, but that happened a couple times. Changed your life. Changed my life. That was a life-changing moment for me because I needed, I needed someone who believed in me and it wasn't, he wasn't like that agent just came, Stephen Hirsch, you know, he's retired. He's so good. He was such a great. He said,

Stephen Hirsch. Yeah. Dude, I love Stephen Hirsch. He's such a great agent. He said, he would call, he was my agent back in New York for a little bit. Yeah, that's all. It was, it was, tell me if this is him. He would call me, go, Michael. What did you do in that room? Oh, my God, Marsha Hurwit, she loved you. Yes. I, you've, you, you've, you, me. You, made a friend. Yes. And a fan. She's a fan, but it's not going any further.

Oh, that's the best. Even his letdowns were good. He was so passionate. I loved him. Oh, he was so good. He was like a breath of fresh year. You have to give me his information if you have it. I don't know if you know, I wonder, I think I still, you know what?

I just would love to say, you were just a great, great agent. Let me tell you, dude, now they weren't a subject. People in your core, when someone's in your court and believes in you, listening. You're making me feel, because when I left, Kersh, I never, I, that was probably when I, Leaving Stephen was one of the hardest things. And I should have done it. I was talking to another actor

last couple weeks ago. You know, when you have a great agent, you have to just sort of like ride that out because it is hard. Now I got good people too, but I mean, back then, I went from that to not so good, you know, at all. It was like the opposite.

And I regretted it. And I regretted it so much that I couldn't even bring myself to go back to him because I felt I was so, I felt embarrassed. and I felt, I felt ashamed. Yeah. That I had squandered that relationship over something that could have been probably rectified

and also I could have, you know, forgiven. And it's just, you know, it's one of those things. You look back on it. Yeah, of course. Weird. But I know that this is true. When you start getting more famous or you're working more or whatever, you need a better team.

You need a big agency now. People in your ear. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you're somewhere where like, they're not even... They don't even know you. They don't even know me. They don't even know you. I've been with the big agents and I'm like, nobody cares.

They're cherry picking you. They don't know. They don't know you. And so for that moment, you know, that happened to me. And I was like, I had a guy. I was like, it's like being, it's like being with someone who's seen you in the Farm League, you know, they saw you come on a high. They know you.

They know you. They know you as a human being. They know. So they're not cherry picking you after you've done some stuff that they like or whatever or that they heard. It's not it. Sometimes the cherry pickers don't even know the work they're picking your They just want you.

It's just like a competition of collecting. You need to be with CA. You need to leave your lawyer. You need to be with this big lawyer. You need to be this. It's almost like they have these meetings before you even like know what's going on. Yeah. Like this is what we're going to do.

Or you get the idea in your own head because someone else you, you know, you saw it. You saw it happen. Someone else is signed here. It's a shame too because like right now I'm with a, they're not a huge agency. But my agent Ryan and Rob are so passionate. and care about me and really want what's best for me. And they also understand I don't want to work all the time. I don't want to do anything.

Yeah. It has to be absolutely right. And I don't have to work. I won't work for a couple years if it's not right. Yeah, yeah. I don't care. You need people to be on the same page you're on. Otherwise, you know, it's not a fit.

Because if your agent's worried about you making sure you're working because they need to make sure you to make money for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, big agencies, you got to make money. You got to make money. He hasn't made you money.

about a year. Yeah. I don't know. We should let him go. Oh, yeah. And I told my agent once, I said, listen, you know when it happens, it's going to happen. Yeah, yeah. You know I've got the abilities.

I said this to him. I said, so I know you're not leaving me. Yeah. Because if you do, you know, in the back of your head, someone else is going to get something. Sure. And I know that we have a great relationship. Yeah. I'm not leaving you.

Listen, it costs, here's a thing. It costs them nothing to have you on the roster. Exactly. What is it? Back in the day, remember when we first started, it felt like, it felt like, it felt like, It felt like you call it. The way your mind works, I learned us a long time ago. You want to know who's on that roster.

Yeah, but also they work for you. But it's hard when you first start out. You're not making any money. Yeah, they work for you, but you feel like you're working for them. You feel like you're working for them. You feel like you're not even paying for our stationery. Yeah. With your guest star on Raisin Adam.

Yeah. You feel like you're part of a team, but you're like got to contribute to some weird thing. Oh, yeah. I got to make them some money. Yeah. And you feel the, you like, every residual check comes in. Let me give them 10 bucks on. I got to show them. I'm bringing money in. And it's just overwhelming pressure. I know.

Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's a whole different thing. So you sound like in the right place, man. Yeah, I hope so. How did Luke Cage change your life? You know, it was one of those- Do you think it really changed your life? It did. It did. I mean, it definitely did. I don't know what life would have been had I not gotten that role. I think I, you know, I think it was one of those things where I felt like I was going to be working no matter what, because I was, you know, I think it was, I felt like I had the confidence because my confidence, I built this thing. I built my own confidence. It's self-created, right? I have always told myself, like it's like a superpower. Your confidence, you have to have it, you have to have it in a place where you can grab some of it if you need it, but keep it in a place. It's like a genie in a bottle. You have to have it, but you can't have it out all the time. You can't be walking around, spilling all over the place.

No. Because that's not, save your battery. When you need that juice, you can pull. If somebody, if somebody challenges you, and you need it, boom, I got it. You got it. You know, I got to go pitch in the room. Sure. Sure. I got this. I got this. Yeah. Yeah.

And so for me, it was like, I knew that with it, I was, with or without Luke Cage, I was going to work. And I told, I'm like, I knew that. I'm like, because I look around and I see people and I go, there are people in the business. I go, that guy's working. I got over five something. That's how I look at it. And it's no slight.

It's no slight. I do. But I go, that guy's working. Yep. Sometimes I'm like, man, I can't do what he's doing. But I could do with that person. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. I'm always like, yeah, I'm like, I never, for me, the bar is never too high. I never go, it's never a room that I don't feel like I don't belong in. I don't care who you. That's never, it's never that. I may not like them. We may not get along on a personal level, but in terms of talent, I never think I can't hang

I don't care who it is. And I know that sounds crazy, but I never think that. I'm not blowing my own. No, that's what you need. But you have to have that. You have to. Because I'm like, what's somebody. They see it.

Yeah. If someone gives you the right material and it works, you can, you can fly. with it. So I don't care. I'm never, I'm never starstruck or overwhelmed by anyone. It's not like I don't care. I'm never, I'm always thinking to myself, hmm, is this material right? But I'm never thinking, can I can I, can I hang with anybody? No matter what, like if you're acting with Denzo Washington or Anthony Hopkins. I love, listen, I love them all. But would you be nervous at all? No, I wouldn't be nervous. I would be no more nervous than I would be with any great actor, only because what I've learned is when you're a fan of someone,

your ability to work with them is directly related to your ability to isolate the moment and understand that you're not working with this person who's your quote unquote idol or whatever. So you're acting partner. Yeah. And so once you can, if you can figure that part out. Yeah. What you have to. You have to.

You can't be in awe of anybody. You know, I worship at no man's temple. I'm like, I worship at no man's altar. I'm here to work. So once I figure that part out, I can always work. And then after the fact, I can sort of like, God, can you sign this poster?

Yeah. Or you can see them at the table, at the video village or have that moment later or at the premiere, something like that. But when I'm working, I'm working. I don't know, you don't know how I think. And a lot of times I get, you know, tell you, you know, you don't want to meet your heroes because sometimes they're not, they're not the people they think they are. So I'm always expecting.

Have you had that sometimes? Oh, 100%. 100%. Not to the degree in which it was affecting me, but I saw how they treated other people. Yeah. And sometimes that's a letdown. That's the worst, man, when you see their real character shine. Yeah.

People always are, I've heard people say, oh, he treated me well. I'm like, who cares how he treated you? How do you treat the waiter? How do you treat the PA? When the cameras aren't rolling. Yeah, the PA, all that stuff. Because, you know what I mean? Like, that's how I look at people.

So I'm, I thought Morgan Freeman was cool. Morgan, Morgan was doing work. Man, was he like, Morgan was so. Oh, Mike. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, dude. Morgan was so, listen, Morgan was like, You're very confident.

Almost too confident. Almost too confident. Almost too confident. Big Willie Little, big really little. Big Willie Little. Big Willie Little. Big Willie Little. Yeah.

He was so kind. He came in. He was working on Batman. That was the first, I think it was the first Batman. And he was, you know, so he was doing that. He was,

you know, a million-dollar baby. Yeah. And he was going between the two. And he would come on set, and it was just effortless. And I knew, I knew that it was like, I knew that he was going to win an Oscar. I knew that I, well, until I saw Ray,

because, you know, was just so transcendent, you know, for Jamie Fox. But like I said, I knew everybody was going to win before they were cast. The roles themselves already had dictated that because the roles were so good. Yeah, he was a sporting actor. Yeah. So it was so it was just one of those things coming into fruition. So it was just like I was sort of just like basking in the glow of everyone.

Oh, man. I'm a part of this. Yeah, I'm just like sitting there. And I was just like, oh, I was soaking it all in. That's a beautiful thing. That's a great memory. To know it in the most. in the real time to know in real time when something's...

Look what I'm a part of. Yeah. And it was funny because I don't think everyone, because they shouldn't, you know, I don't think you can because sometimes that'll be messed you up, right? I'm talking to Clint the last day and he was like, I'm like I was thanking him for, you know, the opportunity. And I asked him about the, when he thought that this would be released. And they said, oh, you know, I don't know, Warner Brothers has their own thing,

that a dot, because he shot it in less like 30 days like he always does everything, really short schedule, low budget, on time, all that stuff, right? And he gets final edit. But he said, yeah, you don't know what the plan. are and we were shooting this in the summers probably June or something like that, July, because I remember, I remember Hillary's birthday was around the time. And she came in. So, I remember it was in the summer. And so that came out. It was released December because it was award time. But it didn't take much to edit it. It was like it wasn't special effects.

Yeah. They had it. Good story. All done. It was turned in and they released it around December. And I remember telling them, I say, well, they released this, you know. Because Oscars. Yeah. I said, they get it in. I say, I think. I think it's going to win. And this is a guy who I know nothing. He said it when you read the script. I said it. I said that.

I'm like, you know, Paul Haggis had written it. Paul Haggis won like you. And he did crash and he won for that. Yeah. But like I knew. I was like sitting there going, I don't know much. But I'm like, if this thing gets released, man, Clint, this is going to win everything.

I don't know much. I don't much. But I know how to love you. Yeah. It's a great song. Oh, yeah. But Luke Cage, I mean, I remember in an interview you were talking about how people, you know, not doing the same thing over and over.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. About how to travel and mix it up and have new things and not get, you know, bogged down or just like doing the same things. Well, my agents, you know, in terms of roles, my agents were always like, you know, I'm, like I wasn't as big as I am now. I'm 6.3 and 2.30, right? I don't know. I don't know if that reads as big.

That's, you know, but I'm like, I'm not the guy. I'm not the guy who does the hurting. I'm the guy who tells the guy to do the hurting. That's the guy. That's the guy. That's the guy. I'm the guy who does talking about the guy. You know, like, I'll tell you what's going to happen, but I'll let somebody else do it.

That's how I am. I was like, I'm the person, you know, I'm a classically trained actor. I was like, I'm not the guy that came off of a football field looking for an acting job who can barely talk and doesn't understand. Right. That's not me. So regardless of what you see, I want something that's going to challenge me. So I'm looking for those kind of roles. Yeah.

Because if I took the easy stuff, I would be miserable. I'd be like, I'm miserable. I just didn't want to do that. So every time I finish something, I'm trying to figure out how to find a job that's not like the job I just did, whether it kills me. and no matter what that means. And so that's where I am at all times. I feel like I'm always starting over every time. Right.

And then I'll have to start over again. You don't like complacency. No. You don't like to do the same thing. You don't like routine, same thing. No. I did not get it to the business of acting to be different people, to be the same person. You know what I mean?

Like, if I don't want to be myself and I want to find a character that's not like me, then why would I want to get locked into a character that's not like me, but then I am that character for the rest of my life. Yeah. So that doesn't make sense. to me. That's smart. It's smart. Do you think there'll be a Luke Cage comeback? I know you've kind of hinted about it. You know, Kristen and I, she's been talking about this for years and I'm always like, look, it'll, you know, this, it'll happen or it won't happen, da-da-da. Because I was so like,

whatever, I'm like, you know, I'm going to do something else. But now it's been a while. It's been 10 years since Luke Cage premiered this summer, this fall. And Jessica Jones, it's been 10 years for sure since Jessica Jones. Yeah. I do think now it's time. I think, you know, Daredevil's back. I've had discussions with Marvel. And I do think that it's very, very likely that I will come back at some point. But I don't know when, but I think I will. You know, that's not a feeling about this.

Yeah, but, you know. About the story at all? No, no. No, just talking. Just like, you know, just. To see if your game. Yeah. I mean, I think I was always like, people are always like, well, he said he didn't want to do it.

And I'm like, well, I wasn't really thinking about it or interested in it. I just wasn't thinking about it. Yeah. And now I'm thinking about it a little more because it's like it's been enough time. and I feel like I've done some other stuff and I feel like oh my palettes I could do it again and maybe there's some stuff we could do that's different than the last time.

Yeah. So I'm kind of open to that now. Tell me about evil. Evil, one of the best experiences in my life. I think, you know, we had such a fun time. I remember my agents at the time going, no, no, no, don't do that. I remember them saying that.

Don't do that job. And, you know, this is the old age. It's not the new agents, but obviously. Obviously. But if they were the same agents, I still would say it. Right, right. Because this is the truth. The truth is the truth. And I'll be, you know, I'll be clear. I mean, even, you know, because what happens is people, you know, they want to do the new shiny object or whatever, right? I came off of Blue Cage. It was a big success on Netflix, broke the internet, all that stuff, you know, Marvel. I was like, great. But I also want to try something that's more challenging and interesting and more, you know, just, I don't know, there's just more to do. And I thought that. You had done it. I'd done that. And that's there. And I could do that again. or I could do something like that, but let me do something completely different.

And so I was looking for something completely different. And the thing that completely different was, you know, was the king is coming forward with the script on evil of a guy who's training to become a priest, you know. And I was like, you know, what is that? I was like, ding, because I was like, I don't know what a priest does. I've never heard of these terms. I'm not Catholic. I don't know. I've never even seen a black priest.

I'm already halfway sold before I read the script. I'm like looking at the script. A lot of dialogue. A lot of dialogue, lots of interesting, it's like the world. Does that, when you see a lot of dialogue, does it somehow scare you at all? No, no, I like both. I like both. My first acting job, or my first play, one of my first big plays in college was Frankenstein, the creature.

And the first, you know, act, he doesn't speak. And I learned so much about physicality and check off, check off, you know, you don't need to talk to pull attention. I did a checkoff play and I sat there for 30 minutes not saying anything. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about, so the checkoff, Anton Chekhov, and that is Michael Chekhov, the nephew, the checkoff technique. But it's very applicable because you don't speak sometimes. But you have everything to say. Everything to say.

You can draw. So much you can do without words. So I'm a big believer that you should be trained with the classics and learn how to do the dialogue, but also know the physical, no understand acting is doing. So I'm all about both sides. So both excite me. So when I saw that, I was like, you know, there's stuff to do here. And I love the king's writing.

And so that came along and they were like, well, you know, da-da-da. And the first thing he said, I'll be honest with you. they say that means. Well, you're number two in the call sheet. And I go, so? What do I care? Like, okay. What does that mean? What does that mean? Okay, yeah, I did the lead. What, I have to do number ones every time now? I'm looking for the role. I'm not looking for the, I'm not looking for the, really? Are you kidding me? I can't tell you how many times I'm like, I've looked, you looked at movies and TV shows. It doesn't, you don't know what number the person to call sheet is. Especially if they made an impact. Yeah. I don't care about the number. So I actually look for number like five, six. That's a sweet spot. If you, if you, if you, If I can come in and kill it for a day or two, go home and have a life. I was living life, doing a recurring for them for years on the good wife. And I was number 14 on that call sheet.

I didn't care. I didn't know what number I was. I was loving it. I came in, has a great time and knocked it out. And I was, you know, I love that. So I was not preoccupied about that. So when that came about, it was a breath of fresh air. It was a journey and it was an adventure because I hadn't seen anything like that.

The Kings hadn't written anything like that. And I was surprised. I was like, these are the Kings. I was looking for something new. They were looking for something new, and we both took a chance and we went on that journey together. And even though it's done, I think hopefully,

God, God hope we can still do some films. And that's what they want to do with the material because I want to continue in that world some more. The guy from Lost is on there. Yeah, Michael Emerson, yeah. Yeah. They had a great cast. They had, you know, Christine Lottie.

Katte Herbers, who was so great. She was in Westworld and the leftovers and stuff. And she's such a great actress. And I had, you know, a lot of people in this country She didn't know her because she's Dutch. But, I mean, phenomenal actress, probably one of the best actors I've ever worked with. I mean, you know, I've had some really great opportunities to work with people. And so it's nice to be always, when you're across with someone who you go, that person is really good because it raises your bar.

And it's just like, it was just always that kind of thing. And she had no ego. It was always very interesting. There's always, it's great to work with someone who you know is going to help you get the best performance out of yourself. Yeah. and that you knows that you're going to help that person. So there's a mutual. It's not like, how do I look?

How do I? I got to get my stuff. And then it's your coverage and they're like doing half the work. No, no, no. They're dialed in at all times. And they take it seriously. They'll read off camera. They don't go home and all kind of stuff.

I mean, you know, there's some people who just obsessed. Like, you know, Kristen Ritter, she's obsessed, like, obsessed to make sure that the finished product is going to be great. Yeah. And sometimes it's like, you know, obsessed. And that's great. That's great to be with someone who's obsessed because that rubs off on you. Hey, if you're loving inside of you and you want to keep the show going, I encourage you to check out our community at patreon.com slash inside of you.

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Just a couple of questions from my patrons. Okay. Patreon.com slash inside of you. I love you guys. Here's the questions. Little Lisa says, in your own words, what does self-worth mean? Self-worth. That's a great question. What's self-worth? Man, just, I think self-worth is, for me, when you're able to hang out by yourself, like really enjoy your own personal, your own company.

Like, I'm a person, I love certain people. Well, sorry, I like certain people. I love everyone, because I'm a humanitarian. I really do, I love people and I hope the best for people. It doesn't mean I like you enough to hang out with you. That's a different. thing. But there are people I like, right? You got to like yourself, you know, you got to like yourself. If you like yourself, then you like your own company and you don't need to be around people. And you can choose when you engage. So for me, I could have a great time taking myself out to dinner where I want to eat, going to see a movie that I want to see, driving around, listening to the music that I want to listen to, doing things that I enjoy or not doing anything at all. And I can be completely content doing that. And it's dangerous because when you spend time by yourself,

and you enjoy hanging out by yourself, it becomes very comfortable. And people, you know, it's not a bad thing. It just becomes very comfortable. And so sometimes I'm like, look, I'm that guy. I'll go to the party. I may come late. I won't say goodbye to anyone.

I'll sneak out. I'll slide out if I come at all. You know what I mean? Like, I should goodbye, whatever. You're by the door, catching a way out. But I'm just like, that's, for me, self-worth is not really needing someone else to stimulate you because you're really comfortable in your own skin. You make me want to talk to my therapist right after this conversation.

Raj, tell me about a recent time you struggled to make a decision. I don't really struggle with decisions. It's one of those things where I just because the person asked me something, I go, you know better. Like whoever's asked me a decision, usually like my car guy. You already know. You know. Steak, chicken, and fish. Shake, chicken, a fish, fish.

All day. All day. It's easy. I know what I'm going to eat. Like, this is not the first time I've lived in my life. Like, I walk outside. People standing in line looking at a menu. Those people, I'm not that person.

I'm not that person. I have a look at menus. I wouldn't know. Yeah, I know what I want. I stand in line and you go, no, what do you want? I never do that. Not that person.

Melissa, what was it like? Melissa M was like working in the law and order universe. Oh, it was necessary. It was necessary. Like it was, you had to have those credits. That guy, that was practiced. That was experience.

You needed that credit. New York, that was all that were shooting. You had to have the credits. I had three of them. I did all the law and orders except for the original because I think it was over by the time. I got to run to it. But I did Criminal Intentant. I did SVU.

With Dinoffrio? Yeah. He's so funny. I remember watching that and I was like, what is he doing? He was, and I ended up loving it. But he would go, no, the, the thing is, he said he was left-handed. Yeah. But I can't.

And he just does these things where, well, the, and I'm like, what do you? And then it's just so interesting. Because he's, because he's finding it. He's doing everything. Yeah. And it's one of those things where he's such a great. actor. And I watched him growing up, and he's one of those people, he go, man, you know, just, just really, just always detailed, oriented. And working with him, talk about being in a scene

with somebody, okay, this is one of those people. He's like, I got to do the work. He demands. But it's like that thing. And in between takes, he was kind enough to have this normal, you know, I was like, you know, just not going to bother him. But he, I remember saying something about, you know, really enjoyed whatever, I'm sure it's full metal jacket or whatever it was because that was a cell. This is such a great, you know, project. I'm sure. I think it was full metal jacket, yeah. And I was like, because it was such a great first half of the film. Like, it was like, oh, after you got, you know, kill him.

It was like, kill himself. But the thing is, I was like, he was said, I think at that moment, you know, he had been on that show, what, 10 years? I didn't know that show had gone that long. But he was like, I said, you know, you're such a, he's like, oh, I feel like I've lost my, I've lost my, my, my, my, my, my talent, a car accident. He said, and I was like, what? Because it's so self-deprecating, but it was like the actor and him wants to just keep doing

changing and doing different things. And then he's just, you know, now he's just doing whatever. He's doing movies and he's doing all the stuff. But I think for him, he was like, oh, you know, I've done this. And I can see how that, you know, I've done this. I know this. And I can do it. And now I'm going to do something else.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I love it. Bob K. Last question for, okay, for this is any chance for evil to return? Absolutely. Absolutely. We have plans and we hope that it happens. You know, the creators have the rights back.

And we would love to do some installations and turn it to a movie franchise and continue to tell the story because we really enjoy working. together. Everyone loves working together. And it's just, we'd be so much fun. Where's the film? Well, filmed in New York, but we could film it anywhere. That's probably going to help. Yeah.

Film in L.A. Yeah. Are you a one-take guy? What's your best take, usually? Oh, God, depends. I'm really good. I like to figure out how the person's working, because you know how it is. Changes. Your reaction. Are you shooting a master?

What do you shoot? Like, right? I'm shooting a master. It's like, this is this rehearsal in anyway. You're not, you're not shooting coverage. Like, you know, what's the scene? you know that kind of thing but under the best case scenario i like knowing that what my first my first take is going to be is usable like if you're telling me you know this is going to be i can use it i love

do the first i do one take one take you know if you're a guest star you come in you know those guys are on it right away yeah in rehearsal in rehearsal they're they're on it book you better know they're they're they're firing at all cylinders in rehearsals because they're guest stars and they don't that's and so i feel like i'm always that that level i feel like i'm always functioning at a guest star level because I'm not going to have some I'm ready I'm ready as ready as you are yeah that's how I feel I'm as ready as you need me to be that's it that's what do you watch what shows you watch what movies you watch what what do you like I love foreign films because it's just different and I think American films are always trying to please audiences and right and put things in a nice little neat

package porn films that they'll breathe a little bit they're not they're not you know focused on the finance they're not commercially driven so a film like you know um was sentimental value, which I saw in the theaters. Those kind of films, it was a Netflix film, but those are the films I like to watch, you know, because I'm sitting there watching a film that doesn't have an agenda, and it's going to let the characters maybe be unlikable, and that's fine. And I'm really a big documentary fan. Huge documentaries.

That's a lot. Documentaries. I see the John Candy one? Did you see the John Candy? Yeah, it was good. I'll send you some really good ones, too. do because there's some great ones out there. I'm sure you have some too.

Oh, yeah. Any documentary that's of a subject that I either am already engaged in and I like the person or know something or like their work, I'm definitely want to see it or something that I don't know anything about that I'm just curious about because I just find it very fascinating. It's real. I like I like nonfiction. I like history. I like how people face adversity in real life. Because that's where ideas come from most of the time anyway. It's not like people are afraid to do fiction nowadays.

It's hard to sell fiction. It's much easier to sell fiction. It's much easier to sell something that's an IP, something that already happened. Relatability. Yeah. Yeah, it's much, much easier. Do you go to therapy? I used to quite a bit. I have it. I don't go as much as I used to. I'm a person that I'd like to take the therapy sessions and I like to create a toolbox. Just like acting. Like, you know, some people take. Learn what to do for me. Learn what to do. Some people do acting classes forever and they, you know, get, you know, they want to do. I try to get a toolbox so I can apply it to life. That's what it is. And then when I'm running out of things and I think of, you know, then I just try and go put more. stuff in it. So maybe if you're like it was martial arts and you're working on, you want to be a blue belt, you got a phone, you got to hone in on those skills sets and then you go to the next level. I try to figure out how to utilize that thing that they've taught me and apply it in life. And then I try to come back if I'm bumping up or I've exceeded and I've got another problem now

or something I need to just have a touch up on, you know, refreshing, refresher course. Well, you know what, man, just getting to know you like sitting here for an hour. Like I honestly look at you and I go, this guy's a star. Well, no, no, just like inside out. You've got the framework. You've got the experience. You've got the talent. You've got, you know, you've got all these things and the vision. And, you know, you know what you want, you know.

And it's rare to look at someone and go, they know exactly who they are. They know exactly what they want. They know exactly where they need to be. Yeah. And I'm thinking, man, you better make a promise to me that, you know, when you're up for an Oscar, you better come back in here. Listen, listen, man. I'm so at this point right now, you're in this business long enough. everything that you ever thought you wanted, you may not even want by the time.

I think about everything now in a different perspective. Sure. My desires and my ambitions are completely different now. Now I'm not certain about anything that I wanted when I was younger because I'm not sure that matters. I'm not sure about any. So like right now, success, the success that I'm having, whatever that is, it feels enough until it's not enough or until there's a project that, because it's not about, I guess,

a result. because I'm sort of like, you know, everything comes at a cost nowadays. Like it's almost like anything that you want comes at a cost and I'm not sure everything that I want is worth it. Yeah. You know, so I'm always like, I'm good. I'm good. So we'll see. You know, we'll see how things go because someone's going.

If someone tells me you can do this and this will get you that. And if that's not what I want, then I won't do it. You know, it's that easy. You can make those decisions. Yeah. You could, you know, I remember when we were just trying to get work, it's just like, I'll do anything. I don't care what it is. Yeah.

And then you get to a point, hopefully. And there are a lot of great actors out there that, you know, they should, you know, they should have those opportunities. But I consider myself really lucky. And I know you do. And it's so, but luck's commodity, commodity of preparation and opportunity. And everybody knows that. And it's just be prepared when that moment arrives. Yeah. Because those moments will arrive. And it's the energy you create and like you thinking about them and you putting yourself in the right position and the right places and around the right people. Those things will happen. You can manifest that. 100%. Because when someone tells you, no, I mean, now, if someone, if I'm in a situation where I feel like, oh, this person is making a mistake.

And I do feel that sometimes or this person, because sometimes, you know, look, they want you to read for something. They want you to read. And I'm like, if it's worth reading for something, maybe I'll read. Sometimes I'm like, I'm reading for that. And I stand on that. I'm not reading for that. And if they move on to someone else, I'm going, it's your loss.

Because to me, it's like, it's their ego. Yeah. It's their ability, in ability. Yeah, yeah. Tell him to put himself on too. Yeah, no, no, no. I'll meet with you, we'll talk. And if all people want to talk, but here's a thing,

when you're in a room with them, right? They want to see the character. They're like, because they're like trying to figure out, all right, well, I love him in that thing. And they'll tell you your whole resume. And they're like, but is he this character? And so they're trying to do the thing where they're like, it's an interview, but they're also trying to figure out how do they have this input

into this decision, which is I saw it so I know it's him or whatever. Yeah. Because they don't. They can't do that, right? So they don't trust the process and they don't trust the magic. What is the acting, right? Well, what I'm doing right now is not what I'm going to do. on the day.

This is not the character. I'm just talking to you. But if I tell you I know something, if I'm telling you I like this thing and I know how this thing and I understand this thing, you got to trust me because that's what I do. But if you can't do that, then I'll, you know,

because we've got off on the wrong foot. Yeah. The best opportunities I've ever had in my life are the people that trusted me and just said, well, give them the job. Are you going to do it? The people that, if I didn't have to read for it, forget it.

You work harder when people trust you. Yeah. Because you want to let them down yourself down. 100% yeah 100% they've trusted you now you come in through the moon with preparation you're ready because you know they trust you because they know that you've done what you said you were gonna do you don't want to let him down that's it what's next besides i mean you got evil you got all these things pending no cooperino i'm doing i'm starting in march supposedly um what's that kings the kings it's a new show um kings kings who did evil robert michel uh about uh david golias sort of story um a lawyer who's gotten unceremoniously fired, taken out of his, out of his firm. They've double crossed him.

He's, you know, he's pissed. It's in Silicon, set in Silicon Valley, all the big AI companies, you know, the Apple's all this, like, we're basically focusing on AI and how AI is changing the entire world. So we're so. That'll be good. Yeah, so this guy, you know,

it's interesting. There's a lawyer, and it's, but the Kings are very good at doing Trojan horses where it looks like something from the outside, and then you get inside of it, and something completely different. Start to dissect it. It's sort of, yeah.

It's behind the curtain. Yeah. So I have high hopes working with them again. And then I've got a couple of things that are brewing that, you know, hopefully schedule works that it can happen. But yeah. But that's the main thing right now. So that's going to be taking me for the next six months.

I'm glad I got you. Yeah, yeah. You're going to come back? Absolutely. This is fun, right? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. You live right.

I mean, I'm 15 minutes away from you, man. It's right on the street. I love it. This is great. Thank you so much for coming. This is a blast. This was a blast. I appreciate it.

You know, it's funny, I saw, I saw this, I watched it. And I go, damn, he's really good. Why did I say no? It's literally what happened? That's nice. I thought, oh, this is crazy. Because it's your gut sometimes you're like, you don't know. You don't know me.

It's another podcast who's this guy, whatever. It was one. But then Kristen did it and I was like, okay, I'm going to, but I knew she knew you. And I said, okay, and then I didn't see it. And then I saw it. I was, oh, it called me crazy and I did do it. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate it, man.

Thank you. Mike. I love this interview. I really appreciate you. You better come back and talk to me again because this was a lot of fun. So thank you. And thanks for listening today, folks. Again, if you want to join Patreon and support the podcast, patreon.com slash inside of you,

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