Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - PATTON OSWALT: Refusing to Settle, The Issue for Comedians Today & Emotions Reconciling Loss

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Patton Oswalt (Ratatouille, Young Adult) joins us this week for an amazing conversation about his upbringing that cultivated his creative side, to balancing gratitude and the drive needed to push through contentless, to painful moments reconciling the loss of a loved one… Fantastic episode. Patton goes on to share his joy for comedy and the problem he sees for new comedians in today’s social media world. We also gush over Charlize Theron, share our love of horror, and discuss the impact of Lex Luthor on Elon Musk. Thank you to our sponsors: 📞 Mint Mobile: https://mintmobile.com/insideofyou  🧠 Qualialife: https://qualialife.com/iou 🛍️ Shopify: https://shopify.com/inside __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou 👕 Inside Of You Merch: https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🤣 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod 🌐 Website: https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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land rover.ca. You're listening to Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. I'm going to start talking even when Ryan's walking around the studio. That's what I like to do, Ryan. Yeah, it's like a little, like a BTS moment. Like this is really happening in a real time. It's real. Yeah, exactly. Hey, guys, thanks for, thanks for tuning in again this week.

We have a great episode. If you don't know this guy, Pat and Oswald, you should. He's written books. He's a stand-up comedian. He's had specials. He's been on so many different things. He's traveled the world. He's got a fascinating story.

um you know and and part of his story is tragic um losing his wife and um but it just his story is compelling and it meant a lot to me that he came on the show and and talked to me about it and was so open and that's what this podcast is all about i think you're really going to enjoy it a few things before we get started thank you to all my patrons patreon dot com slash inside of you if you want to support the podcast and give back and help this thing continue um you go to my link tree on my Instagram at the Michael Rosenbaum, and there's cameos and upcoming cons, like the Smallville Con, get tickets, Tampa Bay, Rose City. And then other things on the link tree is my pet product, Rosie's Puffy Fresh Breath. If your dog's got bad breath, you need some Rosie's Puppie Fresh Breath,

period. And The Talented Fartter, my book is available for pre-order on Amazon. So check that out. Sunspin, my band. But I'm really excited about this episode. And Ryan, you're good? You're traveling anymore? You've been traveling a lot, dude. Not far. Well, you went to visit. I've been to upstate New York, and I've been to...

Washington? I went to Washington earlier this year. Oh, yes, yeah. Back in March. But there are no plans at the moment. All right, so you're here for a bit. I'm here for a bit. I don't have any big international plans.

Well, I'm inviting you to my birthday party. Oh, that's going to be far. It's going to be here. Yeah. By the way, I went to Italy. and I haven't really talked about it I don't think on the podcast. Ryan, it changed my life.

And why did it change my life? It made me realize how important getting away from work and not obsessing and doing something for yourself is. It really was, I was a little stress before I left. I was like 10 days.

I've never been on vacation for 10 days. I've never taken a 10 day vacation. not more than a four day ever and this time i went to italy and the people there are phenomenal the food was phenomenal i have a gluten sensitivity and i ate pizza and pasta every day and i didn't have a freaking problem i did have diarrhea one day but that was a sandwich that i ate that was bad but other than that it was glorious i loved italy rome florence positano i just had such a great time man how weird is positano it's great yeah it's just like it's another world and it made me go you know you're doing this every year now you're going to go on a trip you're going to force yourself

to take 10 days and go somewhere and just stop doing what you're doing and it was hard and I was like oh there's going to be so much to do when I get back you'll figure it out you'll figure it out try to take a break even if it's two days take a break a day to get away it's so important for your peace of mind and it really it really helped me so you know thank you italy yeah went with my friend rob who's in my band sunspin who you know and we had a blast we only got in one argument i go stop freaking out like a hyena and that was kind of the quote of the trip he gets short sometimes you just kind of freaks out but he's pretty good and i'm impatient so it doesn't help great get guest as i told you pat and oswald you're going to love this one let's just get into it

Patten, thanks for coming. Let's get inside of Pat and Oswald. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. We talked. We were sitting here. You were making your tea. We were making you tea. Yes, you are. like English breakfast black tea. Strong.

Strong three tea bags in that. I got three tea bags, man. I want this stuff like paint thinner. I mean, it's amazing. You're a three bagger. I wish the... Hang on. Wait a minute.

Let's let the comment section go crazy for a second. Okay. I like the way the British drink tea. It is just... They want a cup full of a rainy day. That's what they want. They want a cup full of bitterness and repressed emotion. But don't they like milk too?

Then they put milk and sugar in it. But I think the working men, they just have it black with some sugar and that's it. Are you a working man? I'm a, you know what I mean? I'm a disillusion spy. That's how I drink my tea. Why do you love horror so much? I love horror because I love things that are, that actually are simple and know what they are and don't

apologize for what they are because that's something in me. I'm constantly second guessing myself and apologizing and, like, like, is this what I wanted? And a truly good horror movie is like, I built a machine to scare this shit out of you. I am not here to deal with deeper truths or weird elliptical oblique stuff. I'm here to scare the shit out of you. And if you find a deeper meaning to this good for you,

but the really great, truly great horror movies like Texas Chainsaw like Halloween, they're just like, I'm just here to scare the crap out of you. And you, and what's amazing is the, the, the purest, simplest movies are the ones that inspire the most arguing, right? What does, what's the bigger meaning here? Because people can't accept that something was so simple and perfect. Well, I always say this changed, like my favorite horror movie of all time. Like I keep always thinking, you know, going back to the shining and whatever. Yeah. But like, if I really think about something that is absolutely raw and scary, it's Texas chains on us. Texas chains. And that's a movie. Nothing like it. Yeah. And what's weird is I, I just rewatched the original Halloween with my daughter when she was 14. She needs to say, Alice. Alice. Yes. She's like, oh, my friends have seen this movie.

I want to see it. And she was just like, eh, I don't, because she's watching it with 20, 23 goggles on. We watched it last year. Yeah. She's not watching it with the 1981 goggles I had on when I saw it, but it just scared the crap out of me. Yeah. It's a machine to scare the crap out of you. Yeah.

But it would, by today's standards, it would barely be a PG-13 in terms of content. Yeah. There's a bare boob for half a second. I miss boobs. Even dongs. Yeah. Sleepaway camp. Bring them back.

There you go. Dongs and boobs. Dongs and boobs, folks. There's your next movie, Dongs and boobs. And it's a, it's a pair of detectives, Jack Dongs and Fred Boobes. And they have a detective agency, don'ts and boobs. Why do I think that would sell? uh because you're you know the business i do what but but what i'm saying is Halloween would get a

pg 13 Texas chainsaw which has no nudity and no actual visible gore and no cursing would absolutely still get an R rating yeah just for pure intensity yeah i agree you you're crawling out of your skin watching that thing well was someone like you who writes and produces and acts and a stand-up and and is an author and all these, why haven't you written a horror movie? Like, why aren't you trying to get a horror movie made? We need more horror movies. Well, actually, right now, it's a golden age of horror movies. The stuff that's being made is ridiculous.

People are, and people are doing really cool. I love the fact that Shutter is financing horror movies. But yeah, I definitely, I've written one horror script, couldn't get it made. And so there's another one that I'm working on now with a writing partner. But I want to do it as a TV show. I don't want to do it as a single movie. I want to do, can you do sustained horror week to week? Like American Horror Story?

Yes, exactly, which is a brilliant series. But that idea of you're coming back, it's not like surviving one incident, it's the whole world is going crazy. See, I'd love to see something like that. It genuinely works and just as long as you make your characters likable. As long as you're with them. Or just real. Make them like, this is a real person. that I, you know, okay, I kind of get what they're doing.

Yeah. Even if they're maybe messed up. Like, Jack Nicholson's character in The Shining is not the most lovable character, but you kind of get what he's going through. Yes. In a very fucked up way. Yes. That there's that really cool idea that the Shining, and he openly took this from the haunting

of Hillhouse, which is houses aren't haunted. People are haunted. And a lot of times houses are haunted by the people that they just haven't made it back to the house yet. like if you read the haunting of Hill House who the person that's haunting Hill House is the main character Eleanor she just doesn't realize it yet

that she was always destined to come stay with us Eleanor forever and ever and she does she just doesn't realize that she's always been there I like that and that's that line from The Shining you've always been the caretaker You've always been a cat taker

Sorry Bean Bean you just don't know it You're the caretaker Mr. Torrance You've always been always been Always being the caretaker. Yeah. You Delbert Grady, you a family man, or Mr. Grady. In other words, what Jack Torrance was doing, Jack Torrance was haunting the life he was living as a father and a playwright.

But he was, but the actual life he's lived, he doesn't realize it, is back in the overlook. Wow. I never interpreted it like that. See, you're smart, you're smart. No, I'm not. Were you always this creative because, you know, I mean, at a young age,

you get you're a military brat your dad's a marine pilot all this it was five first of up was he hard on you no my my dad was um and it's weird a lot of my friends who had dads and moms in the military because he had seen war he'd been in vietnam for three years he was like you are never joining the military you are never going to war really i think true veterans are very much against their kids joining the military because they see first they're like you ain't going through that no no and in that especially what he went through was that was three years that was me being shot in the leg that was me seeing friends killed for nothing like for no reason yeah and she's like why would i want to blast that big

of a chunk out of my son's life when he could just be when he heard that i wanted to become a comedian he's like good go make people really perfect that's a way better thing to be doing in the world i mean what year was that when you really said hey this is what i'm going to do i when i really knew this is what's going to happen was in like 1990. I've been doing open mics for two years, but 1990 was when I first started getting booked and I'm like, yeah, I'm really pursuing this. And he's like, great. Go for it. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Go for it. My father, when I told him I want to be actor, he didn't like that. Really? No. It's like, who makes as an actor? And I grew up in a small town in Indiana. Who, like, he was trying, I guess he was trying his own way to protect me.

Like, you know, get a real job. What did he do? He worked in the pharmaceutical industry. Oh, so he I mean, in a weird way. He made the drugs that I inevitably took. And his, he made the drugs to deal with the trauma that he put in you, which is, that's a nice fatherly thing to do. Yeah, exactly. No, in his own way,

I'm sure you realize this too, he was being a good dad in his mind. Like, I don't want my kid out there starving and suffering and being rejected and being judged, like get a regular job and avoid all that. But what you real, what he didn't realize was to,

not have the chance to go for it and even fail would be even more painful. If you would live a steady life as a far. Look, there's a lot of people that are accountants that should be ballerinas. And there's also a lot of ballerinas that should be accountants. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people in show business that are like, oh, no, you would actually be happier doing something else. Because they approach showbiz as if it's working in a bank.

Like, I've been doing this 10 years. I should be here. It's like, that's not how this business works. when you sign up for this business you have to forever and not only is it forever you have to sign up for and accept the fact that it is up and down and it does not matter what you've been doing it doesn't matter the time you put in unfortunately is not a factor i mean it's a factor in terms of what your skills are but if you're expecting but i've been in here 20 years so i should have these privileges like well you hear those stories you hear from even people say hey can i

have advice you know uh i was thinking about going give it a shot for a year i'm like a year that's no a year it no yeah if you if you can think of anything else you want to do other than that don't do it don't do yeah if you're even approaching it with a time limit like i'm it's got like like like i'll get my head shots i'll go to an acting class i'll give it a year and it's almost like you're you're judging the business listen i'm giving you a whole year now you got to get your Listen, showbiz, you've got to get your shit together. You got to get me in this movie. I'm holding up my part at the end of the bargain here.

Yeah, that's true. I don't look it like that. The world, the creative world doesn't give a shit. And you can also be at this for 40 years and that's when you break through and you can't be bitter about it. Yeah, that's true. You have to enjoy the years you were in this. Well, you've been open about, you know, you've dealt with a lot of depression in your life. Oh, boy.

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Rocket Money. We go to therapy, whatever. But someone who deals with a lot of depression, you think that this is absolutely not right for them. Yes, yeah, although I almost think that the reason that people get depressed is because they are more aware and they are more wired into what reality is and that makes you a better creative person when you are much more aware of what the overall deal is in life and all

the little subtleties and all the little subtle injustices that can lead to depression. there's a very dark thing I heard said one time, which was a lot of times the reason that people commit suicide is because they do see how horrible life can be and they're actually very sensitive. It's the people that don't commit suicide that make life unbearable sometimes. It's the people that are just like, it's awesome.

You're kidding? You're like they're just riding around doing damage, not caring. It's like you should actually be beside yourself the damage you're putting out into the world. So these sensitive people, They're hyper aware. They're hyper aware. And those are the people that we actually need to save and keep in the world.

You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what makes it so sad to me. Yeah. Would you get depressed if you had a bad set? Do you get depressed if something fails? Do you get depressed? I, yes, I used to get really depressed when I had a bad set.

But here's the best thing about having, and I'm sure you've had this too, when you have a bad set or you do a movie and the movie just while you're working on it, you're like, this is going to change everything, and it comes out and just absolutely eats it. Expectations. Expectations. But there's nothing better than waking up the day after a bad set or a bad show or whatever and go, oh, the world didn't end. Oh, I'm actually not that important. I can keep going on with my art.

I only suck to about 400 people who were there that night. Exactly. For temporarily. Yeah. And by the way, when I show up tonight at a new show, no one there's going to know what happened the night before. So it doesn't, like, I can just keep going. do you remember the feeling that you had failing and the numbness i remember the numbness and like almost like

the world's ending and you just feel like everything stopped and and then how did you slowly get out of that and start to deal with it in a better way the way you you boy you just the word slowly was very key uh you have to slowly wake up each day and it'll take you a couple days to then realize oh wait i can just keep going and that didn't end that didn't decide anything for me and that didn't move the needle either way I'm allowed to go up and just and screw things up yeah it's okay you're you're not going to anyone that like I think that happens to writers a lot they'll write their first draft and then they'll show it to people like well you need they're like what the like they can't believe that nothing's very few not not nothing but very few things are

perfect out of the out of the gate yeah they need working So you're saying now that you've done this for so long. First of all, do you really, do you love it? Do you love the industry? Do you love working? Do you love acting? It's not that I love the industry. The industry itself, you can't judge the creative life by the industry, by the infrastructure

that it exists in. Because if you judge it by then, then it's horrible. Right. We see how horrible it is right now. Right. But the fact that I get to, I write jokes, I hang out with other comedians, I hang out with other people that are really into movies before we even started recording we're talking about have you seen this movie oh my god you got to go see like we're still excited as much as i'm

excited to to um be in things i'm way more excited to get to watch things and experience things i just filmed the tv show with an actress i'd never work with that i'm a huge what show of i don't think i can say yeah that's all right but i i'm not like this hey we're on the same level i you know when I meet someone that I'm a big fan of, I totally fan out. I don't try to go like, Hey, yeah, what's up? And I told all the autographs around me.

Yeah, and I totally fanned out on her. And then I said, I'm not going to bother you while we're shooting because we got it all of these scenes to do. But the end of day, can we have a picture together? And she was like, absolutely. Like, I'm not, I'm never going to not be that guy. I think people like that. Yeah.

Whether they say it or not, I think that there's an ego and there's something nice about, oh, this person likes me and it makes them feel bigger or better. It was such a big deal to get to do scenes with her. Can you say who it is? No, because I think that'll spills it. Is it a big actor, actress? Yes, she is not, not only is she a big actress. She's one of those people that kind of along the lines, what we were talking about,

she had a, there's another thing you got to realize. Sometimes you will have a huge spike of success and then you won't do anything for a while. Yeah. And then you got to wait for the next spike. So she had a big spike of success. And then she worked steadily. And it wasn't until these last couple years that people realize, oh, she's a genuinely amazing actor.

Like she has levels that people haven't let her go to because she was always just so ridiculously hot and beautiful that they're like, well, that's what she does. And she is now aged into an even more interesting, vital, genuinely startling artist to get to watch. And so that it takes time for you to get to that. I also think it's important, like, you know, some people will say, you know, how do you become a better actor? And you can say, well, you practice. It's more work you do.

Yes. But to me, it's not, it's not really that. It's how much life you've lived and how many emotions have come out of you. Yes. And what you've seen, the horror in the world, the joy in the world. It's all these things, this culmination of all these things. And let that be on your face. That will make you pop on screen.

If somebody says be angry, there's no doubt I could pop into it. it in one fucking minute if somebody says you know there's certain emotions that I could tap into from a young age yes you know are there the is that there for you because you seem like you had a good childhood I had a really really good childhood but I also had one of those how can I put it that one of those overly sensitive childhoods where I didn't realize how good I had it I was I was living in the suburbs so I was bored and I wanted to you know my heroes were people like um Hunter S. Thompson and William S. Burroughs and people that were out living on the edge and that's what I wanted to do. And it's like, well, why don't you're 13? Why don't you chill out a little bit?

You've got good friends. There's, you know, just live your life for a little bit. You've got, and also those guys were miserable half the time. And didn't really come to the best ending. So maybe don't emulate those guys in the long run. But so yeah, it was a good childhood, but I was very, very, my emotions were really cranked up because I wanted, to experience stuff. And in the suburbs, you're kind of a veal in a pen, just sort of, you know, being quietly fed. And I was like, get me out of here.

You know, a lot of people will say no to what I'm going to ask you. Go ahead. But I got to be honest, if somebody said, you know, did you want to be famous? I would say, yeah. Of course I did. And some people say, no, I just want the work. Just love the work. Dude, no.

But the fame will help you get more work. I know that's it will. I'm sorry, but it's a reality of this business, and it's a reality of the creative arts. If you just want fame just for the fame, just because I want to be on the red carpet. I don't want to look up myself in getting images. I don't want to let, you know, yeah, that's a sad, that's a sad version of fame. But if you want fame so that your name is out there so you can maybe get better work and get to work with better people and do cooler work, then absolutely, what's wrong with that?

Yeah. It helps. I mean, when I do, I want to do stand up. and I love doing movies and I love doing TV shows, but being in movies and TV shows helps me to do more stand-up. It keeps my name out there and I can book better gigs

and get a good audience to come in. I don't need to work in an arena. I just need a small theater for the people that are really into what I'm doing and that's all I need. Like immediate gratification, sort of an interaction, connection, immediate connection.

And the possibility that it can go wrong. Do you like when it goes wrong? I don't like when it goes wrong, but I love the possibility of, okay, I could have lost him here for a second, and now I've got to get him back. That thrill to me is amazing. There's such a fucking thrill to that.

I don't know if you've done, you've done live theater, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There have got to be nights where some nights where, like, everything is clicking. Everything is clicking on the audience. And there's other shows, I'm sure,

where you and the cast were backstage, like, we just didn't connect. We didn't connect. Not only did we not connect, it just, we didn't connect, and then it just kept going downhill from there. And there's a weird thrill to that. You know, one of my favorite moments was I was doing a play called the Heidi Chronicles.

About Heidi Fleece? I know. It would have been more interesting. Very interesting. I was doing this, and it's just really the two of us on stage, me and the other, the actress. And she pulls something off this table, and the whole table, everything falls off. The chip ball, the punch, everything falls off. and I could see the fear in her face

and it's something I never expected and still to this day it was I go I just looked at I go well I guess you should help me clean this up and we did all the dialogue we forgot about our blocking and as we're picking up the chips we continue the conversation

and I bet that made it seem better it was just it was I remember the energy I remember the nerves I remember the excitement it was just also raw and again the audience right there and there was that supposed to happen was it not supposed to happen I think they probably knew it wasn't supposed to happen it was a mess but you went along with the stuff

I went along with it like you were saying it changed the energy it changed the energy and it was just one of the best moments as an actor for me that I was able to you find a way like you sing with stand up yeah bombing you're bombing you got to find a way out yeah you know if it doesn't work it doesn't work but you got to just continue to and it's thrilling for audience to see it going a certain way and then you pull it out at the last minute. Yeah. And again, I don't want to, I don't like it. I would rather go on stage and do my material and it really, really goes well. And for the most part, it does. But those nights when it goes off the rails and I got to find a way back, it does like that audience will always remember you.

They will always like, yeah, we're coming back. But do you ever say something like, oh, this is going well? Oh, you didn't get that joke. Do you start doing that thing? I, you know what? I used to do that because that came out of that whole alt scene in the early 90s, which is all about, oh, I hate myself. This sucks. What is this? Yeah. But then I-

The Mark Marindays. Well, just the whole, in this, by the way, this translated to movies and music as well. It was that whole shoegaser. We didn't really prepare what the, you know, who cares, whatever. And that's kind of cute a couple of times. But audiences eventually want to come and see a show. Yeah, they want to see a show, right. And so eventually I did get to the point where it's like,

I don't sit there and go, I'm awesome, but I try not to go, boy, this is going in the shitter. Like, I at least want them to feel like I'm excited to be there. And even if something goes wrong, I'm like, I got other stuff. Don't worry about it. Like, you're in good hands. Right.

You know. Yeah. I could see you doing something like this where you say something doesn't work. And you go, you know, let me tell you about that. Yeah, yeah, Texas Radio and the Big Beat. Oh, my God. Yeah, there are those moments, though, where, but if you also, like, explore the fact that, wow, that absolutely did not work. And you know what? I actually thought it would. And the reason that I thought it would work, and you actually talk about your own delusion as to why that would work, that can end up being really funny. Yeah. Did you think, like, if you look at your career and all the things you, you were you nominated for how many Emmys? Six. How many did you win? one you want an Emmy I want an Emmy for writing right for writing I mean if you look back and

you just say if it all ended today would you say I'm really proud of my career I had a great career or are you insatiable as fuck and you need to you want to step it up you want to prove yourself more are you still trying to prove yourself I'm actually struggling with that and that's a big thing that I'm going through with my therapist right now is that I am at I do have to admit that I am at a level of comfort, or I have achieved a bunch of the stuff that I want to achieve. There's other stuff I haven't done, but am I being ungrateful, wanting more? And I got to find that balance between, because there's days where I'm just like, I'll admit very freely, there's days when I'm working on something like a new project.

And if I don't get the work in that day, I'm just like, I mean, it doesn't really matter. I can still do stand. Like, there's that, there is that unspoken, I can go do other stuff. And I don't have that. when I was doing stand-up, there was a cliff to my back. Like, I either make this work or I'm dead, you know, or I'm homeless. Like, I have to, you know, so in a lot of ways, the cliff has been taken away from my back, and how do you find that new sensation?

Or how do you find a different version of that? How do you set those goals and then try to clear your head of? And I think it's a thing that a lot of people try to deny, and I tried to deny it for so long, like, man, I'm out here struggling. No, that's a lie. That's a lie. You're not struggling anymore. You're struggling to do new stuff, but don't couch it in the idea of, I'm struggling. And if this doesn't work, I'm done. Like, no, you're, you've built a little safety net for yourself. Yes. And so accept that. If you work within that reality and work within that truth, then that's how you can build and work honestly on whatever the next thing you're working on is. See, I'm dealing with something else. I never thought I'd amount to shit. Oh, I didn't either. Well, well, no, in a sense that, you know, when I had some big success, I thought, great, I'm done.

I'm done. Like, it's enough. I don't, almost like in a way you can lose your drive because I don't know how I was very ambitious to make it, to make a living, to be on TV, to be in movies, to do all these things. But at the same time, I, anything I got was sort of like, wow, I outdid myself. Does that make sense? That absolutely, because you're still, if you lose that spark of, oh, God, they want me for something, then I think your work's going to suffer. And you can tell the actors and actresses that are like, I'm just paying the bills with this

fucking thing. You can see that in the performance sometimes. Yeah. Of here I am, okay, this just, this gets me through this quarter. it's not that I don't want to do other great things and I do a lot of things that I for the first time my life I feel like I'm actually not just trying to get through it I'm enjoying the process right of things I really am you're enjoying a day rather than yeah all this whatever but then in September that's when that you know like when when you're thinking ahead and you don't give a

fuck about what you're doing now right I just want it's almost like you get a shell and you're like oh I just can't wait until it's over and I can be done I don't think like that it's more like uh i'm writing the script and i'm not really thinking i'd like it to sell but i'm really enjoying the process even if it doesn't right but then how do you how do you deal with the fact that on days when let's say you wake up feeling cruddy or you just can't get started with the writing and there's a part of your brain that's like you know michael you can just go to some you can go to some autograph conventions or a thing with a weekend and make hundred grand.

Like, there's that voice of, you now have outs for yourself. Yeah. So how do you keep the fire lit under the project where you're actually rolling the dice and risking stuff? Because I don't want it to end where that's all I'm relying on. Yes. I want to do things that I love and hopefully get things made and work with my friends and try to dabble in things that I never thought I would do and see if things click

and they work. I'm always doing that, but I'm very, I don't just take a job to take a job. Right. I don't do that. And I'm grateful and I'm fortunate. But like you obviously you should envision where you want to be and what you want to do. Like here's the project. I'd love to have it this way. But I think sometimes it's just as important to envision where you don't want to end up and envision it fully and really feel. How would I feel if I just settled for that and just kind of gave up? What would I be feeling sitting in that chair? What would that feel like? And really embrace that feeling so that you'll then avoid that feeling. Or you'll, you'll, then take concrete steps so that you don't end up there. That's true. But that's something that I struggle with. That is not something that, again, I am a master at mapping out what I or other people

should be doing, but then in the daily practice, that's what I have to embrace outside of talking so much. No, show up and just do it. Inside of you is brought to you by Rocket Money. want to save money then listen to me because i use this ryan uses as so many people use rocket money it's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions crazy right how cool is that monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings and you know what's great it works it really works ryan rocket money will even try to negotiate lowering

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crimes. Hi, I'm Ben. And I'm Nicole. Together we host Wicked and Grim A true crime podcast that unpacks real-life horrors one case at a time. With deep research, dark storytelling, and the occasional drink to take the edge off. We're here to explore the wicked. And reveal the grim. We are wicked and grim. Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. We have so many outs now in terms of what you want to do creatively.

In a weird way, as awful as things were back in the 50s and 60s and 70s, because there were fewer portals through to success, I think it made you focus and work even harder on the few portals that were there. Yeah, that's true. You know, so we've kind of lost that. That's one thing that, especially that a lot of comedians, young comedians coming up,

and the crop of comedians coming up now is insane. They're so good. But the one thing they've been robbed of because of social media is they don't have their time in the wilderness anymore. They don't have their obscure years. You can film yourself doing crowdwork the second you start stand up or film yourself and chronicle your whole career from the get-go. You need those years where you're making massive mistakes that no one's seeing so you truly figure out what you are. It was better when not you didn't have all eyes on you.

Yes. So you could go and experiment and do things and fail and nobody had their cameras and nobody had this. And you could just really forget about the bad and just keep. working on being better. And now it's everything. It's just, you know. Everything. And although it does, it's interesting because, again, my daughter's now 15, and a lot of

her friends are now, and maybe this will be the generation after them and partially their generation. A lot of them, it is becoming fashionable and cool in that generation to not have a digital footprint. They are rebelling against the Gen Xers and the millennials that are just, that are, you know, extremely online and their whole thing is actually I'm not that easy to find online and they're not posting a lot of stuff and they're rejecting that whole influencer grind culture what do you think about that I don't know yet because it just it seems to just be starting but that's going to be

real I think that'll be really good for art music comedy acting if people are like I want my my few years of obscurity I need my obscurity to figure out what I am get that camera off of me that I'll decide when I when I when you get to look at me that'll be the next thing that's pretty brilliant yeah and that's going to be really and it's going to make because then then you get to make your startling entrance almost like a movie star almost like it's the light hitting orson wells and the third man where you're like oh boom there he is you know those great entrances yeah that's a friggin star that's pretty here we go do you ever get star struck I mean I know you got star struck like who's the not the person you just worked with but who are

some of the people that you've met or worked with that you just were nervous? Well, when I worked with Charlize Tehran, I worked with her too. She's awesome. She's, she just ups your game. It's like someone's lighting her, but they're not. That's how perfect is. Exactly. It's like in nature, it's like the sun reangles itself to give her the best backlight and

key light. It's ridiculous. look that good. But beyond looks, what I'm saying is like, there's that, you know, a lot of times method actors are like, I'm going to be in this character and this is how I'm going to be. So I apologize. When we did our movie together, she was playing a completely horrible human being, this movie, I'm young adult.

And she'd be in a scene and just be the worst person you've ever seen. And they would yell cut and she would just beat Charlize and just talk to people and hang out. And they go, okay, action and just drop right back. Were you blown away by that? because it wasn't that you realize the lie to method acting, which is, no, a true high-level actor can go, no, I can be this person and then go back to myself. And at the drop of that, and it was so stunning to see that. And it just made, she's one of those people that when you work with, you just want to work harder

because you realize how amazing she's going to be in the scene. And I know enough about editing that the editor is going to go, yeah, just cut to her stuff. we like if you don't give them anything amazing there's no reason to cut you pressure's off you well the pressure's off you but then the pressure's all so long like do you want to be on screen in this film or not because there's no reason to show you bring it yeah you better bring it or they're just going to cut to her and by the way as a movie buff i'm like cut to her don't cut to my bullshit like so you really want to show up so yeah that was like her and also um tony colette i got to do a tv show with and watching her do cold

table reads wearing sweatpants and drinking a frappuccino and looking at the script for the first time and she's playing a character with multiple personalities and going into all the altars on the spot the whole table it was like me and uh brie larsson and um rosemary duet and we just all of us just looking into like like how does she do it how she's just doing this right she doesn't even know how she's doing it because she's just She's looking at the script for the first time. What page will come in? Okay, I got it.

Here we go. And fearless. That's what I envy the most. I think what I envy the most is fearlessness in people. Yeah. People, at least they appear to be fearless. When they just don't. Who did you work with that kind of did that to you where you're like, oh, God.

Oh, Lord. I mean, I don't know. I've worked with some big names, but like. See, I don't get as freaked out. I don't want to cut you off. No, no. I'm glad you did. It could have been another hour.

I got to work with Charlize. I got to work with Tony. So I got to spend some time with them. It's frustrating when you meet someone that's a hero to you and you're just meeting him for a fleeting second and there's so much you want to say. But you're like, their whole life is a gallery of people going, I just want to tell you, like I met Martin Scorsese at an event.

And I just want to say thank you. I don't want to bother you. And then he was so gracious. And then we ended up talking about, I mentioned because I just watched a personal journey through cinema and just some of his insights in that

and he like lit up and then we ended up talking about Timothy Carey for like half an hour like obscure You tapped in a something He was like oh not the same old shit Exactly That's what you gotta look for

Yeah but I wasn't like it wasn't planning I just wanted to go up and thank him And leave him alone Because he's freaking Martin Scorsese And he could not have been nicer Have you worked with assholes? Yes. And that's all I'll say.

I got to talk about. By the way, can I just, this is going to be, and this is not me ass kissing. This is something really interesting I thought about today because I was driving here. I was taking the, I live three minutes away from you. You do? We live three minutes away from each other. I think I've passed your house when I go on my walks. Well, invite me for a walk or something.

I will invite you for a walk. Please. Yeah, I'm telling you. You live on a nice hill too. It's a really good heart rate upper. Yeah. We'll do a Kevin, uh, Neal, Island walk. Oh, I've done that show. I know. I love that show. Um, your, uh, your portrayal of Lex Luthor and Smallville, this is, I'm not going to get into nerd stuff. It is very, I'm waiting for someone to write a deeper essay about this, like on, on, uh, Collider or Zaffler or something like that, or one of these, one of these, um, uh, news sites where, what, what's, what's it called when people have their own? You subscribe to the, um, their, their, like, blog site. A lot of journalists have these.

these now. Your portrayal of Lex Luthor completely anticipated what we're going through now with people like Elon and all these other damaged tech bro millionaires who have all the money and all the power and they just want to be cool and liked. And they will destroy the world if they're not. And the parallels between that portrayal and you you portrayed a type that hadn't really existed up to that point there had always been the evil confident tech billionaire that's totally cool but we had never seen the ones that were so openly there is something so tragic and almost sympathetic about Elon who is he's the kid whose dad owns the rec center and he wants to be invited there to play foosball and he knows he can just walk in and no but no one has ever

invited him there and that's what he wants and lex the fact that he's friends with his farm boy who is actually kind of sure of himself or at least happy and he there's it's just very weird and kind of eerie to rewatch those episodes and go this is Elon before we knew what Elon it's like you want to like him and you really think you like him and then something else happens well you you want to like him but then you realize you have to think he's you you have to make him think he's awesome every second of his life or he will turn on you and and burn the world down it's so amazing thank you i think right well no it's it's an it's an amazing portrayal because there is always that weird you you play him very confident but then there's that underlying thing

of like you had better laugh at every joke i make you better think of Like, it's, it's just, it's very eerie how this, very intelligent, very cool, kind of postmodern superhero show kind of called the situation that we're all living in now. Wow. I never thought of it like that. You, you think outside the box. Well, no. It started out of 13 Hunter S. Thompson, Burroughs. This is what you do.

The scene where you, where you meet the, where you shake the fortune teller ladies. hand. And then she sees the vision of you in the Oval Office. I'm like, this, they just called the entire, the teens and the 2020, they just called the whole thing. This is terrifying. It's like the Simpsons. Yeah. It is weird. I just, I love those moments where what seems to be fun, disposable, you know, pop culture, entertainment actually ends up being weirdly prophetic. I love it. There's a not great financial thriller called Rollover with Jane Fonda and Chris Christopherson. This came out in the 81.

It's so, it's not great, except the last 10 minutes completely predicts the 2008 financial meltdown and shows what would have happened if we hadn't pulled out of it. It's like crappy movie, crap movie, oh my God, this is the scariest thing I've ever watched. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So I just love stuff like that. I hear you. out. Td Bank knows that running a small business is a journey, from startup to growing and managing

your business. That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD small business banking account manager. you don't mind talking about Michelle right oh yeah yeah yeah I mean I'm in the true crime drama and I'm pitching something and I know you married a true crime writer yes I did and I married a crime fighter I mean it's it's pretty was that one of the biggest appeals is you loved her mind

you loved what was it about Michelle her it was definitely her way of let I need more facts before I make a judgment on this. I'm very much snap judgment very oftentimes the wrong hot take because I get very emotional and she's like let's wait till we get more facts on this dude because this she was just very much about

there are angles to this that we don't know like making a murderer kind of thing she would have definitely said just wait oh yeah watching making a murderer with her watching the interrogation scene of that kid the kid that was like I'm going to miss

WrestleMania. Remember when they're Yeah. And you're like, why don't they let him go? He doesn't even know what he's talking about. And she, because she knew a lot of homicide cops and knew, and she was just like crawling out of his skin. Like, this guy needs to be fired. Everything he's doing right now is illegal. What in, like, there were moments that she would, you, you watched that, because she was there kind of at the beginning of the building of the true crime infrastructure. And there was a lot of bad actors in that. You know, like, there were, there were, she, she obsessively watched Nancy Grace because she's like, I cannot believe

anyone in law enforcement would go on this show. She is the worst human being and she's the worst for talking about crimes. Like if you have a detective or a sheriff from whomever on and they go, hey, don't talk about these aspects because we need those to be not in the press because we're trying to catch the person and she would always blurt them out

and you would see these guys like, what the fuck are you doing? And they'd still go on. And they'd still, it was just like these people are, and early on, her website, True Crime Diary, she got calls from different cable shows. Like, can we have you on and use it? She goes, I don't want my debut to be on the Geraldo Rivera show and have it be all this sensationalized shit.

I actually want this to be, you know. And so the first time she ever, and she wasn't, she was never on camera, but Dateline called her because she had basically put together a case about a. Mormon black widow who had been killing all of her husbands. And but because this was before true crime podcast and true crime blogging were considered a thing, she was a, the family was like, we're not talking to ABC. We're not talking to networks. Are you kidding?

And then she's like, well, I'm just a blogger. Oh, yeah, we'll talk to you, whatever. And then she got the family to talk about all this stuff and, you know, had it, it got them to tell their side of the story on her site. And then Dateline called her and goes, can we fly you to Utah and have you. talk to these people again and because she uncovered all this stuff that other that they couldn't get them to talk about. And she did? Yeah, she did. She flew out there. And then she prepped, who's the guy, the narrator. Come on. Dennis. No, not Dennis. Well, it was another night like any other

like any other. Keith Morrison. Keith Morrison. Yeah. She had to prep him and like work with him. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And it was, which is like, what a fun kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And she was also. Also, she was using back then, because again, the infrastructure wasn't there, she was using Google Maps. She was using people's MySpace pages and people's, like, I don't think, I don't think cops quite yet realize what a treasure trove. Now they do. But back then they're like, I'm not going on the internet. That's fucking teenage girls. Like, no, people are admitting to shit on their MySpace blogs that they wouldn't admit.

I don't think you realize what is happening on the internet right now. Wow. You know, for the longest time, she was beside herself because I think until recently, the San Francisco Police Department had one computer terminal. Everything else was all analog. And she goes, you can't, you can't do this. You can't, you need to update this shit. Because that's how you can catch people now.

People are, people will post things on the internet that they would never reveal in a interrogation or even to their friends. She had that much insight. She knew. Well, she's, because she, it wasn't that, yeah, she had the insight, but she also just saw it happening over and over again. Like, this motherfucker just wrote about this crime on his MySpace blog, because he thinks no one's reading it. Right. And it's right there, you know.

But she would also do things that, that gets back to the, let me get more information. She cracked this other case really early on about this guy that was killing people on a beach. And when you hurt, you know, like, people were camping on the beach, and this guy walked down and shot him with a rifle. But then she drove up to the beach and walked the beach and then saw that, oh, this beach is extremely rocky. It is very treacherous. You have to go. It's very treacherous to get to the pretty part where you can camp. So whoever's carrying a heavy rifle down here, it's not some random weirdo shooting people.

This is an experience outdoor. And then she started investigating that way and then put it like, but she actually walked the beach and go, well, this is different then. This isn't what I thought it was. It has to be this other kind of person. been a detective. She absolutely could have been a detective. Wow. Absolutely. And she would, um, she would have me, she would go, I would do, um, uh, comedy at like the Christmas party for the LAPD, um, uh, homicide division and do like a, do a set for them so that she could sit with all the homicide cops and just grill them all night. She just loved it. She loved it. She wrote

this book. Mm-hmm. About the Golden State Killer. Yes. And what was the book called? I'll be gone in the dark. And unfortunately, she passed before the book came out. She passed right before she could finish it. And you said, I'm finishing this. It has to be finished because she basically put together. Not only did she put together what the case kind of was. She didn't name the killer.

She didn't know who it was, but she did say maybe use familial DNA on this, which is how they cracked the case. But she also, it's one of the. best portraits of the true crime obsessive mind and how it and it's i think a lot of homicide cops that have told me yeah it is sort of a pathology that we have there's it it is a calling that we are drawn to want to find out things i would to her um production company was called tell me productions like i i have to know somebody knows somebody out there knows and i got to find out and it's a pathology and it and it drives you but it's what it's what makes a great homicide detective

and it's what brings justice to people not closure Michelle hated the term closure she also hated the the phrase everything happens for a reason no it doesn't no it's random as shit yeah and this is this is going to sound very dark um but i've had other homicide cops go well she's right um she came up with the name the golden state killer because before then He was called, she thought up that name. And the reasons he thought it up was, he was originally called the East Area Rapist, E-A-R. And then he was called, when he moved down to like around Irvine,

he was called the original night stalker based on some dumb interview that a guy gave. So he was called Ear Ons, Ear Slash Ons. What was his name? Joseph. Look it out. Someone researched it. But she goes, one of the reasons this case went cold is he doesn't. have a cool name. He's not

Nightstalker, Zodiac, like that brands it and keeps it in the imagination. And so when she, and a lot of homicide cops were like, thank you for doing that because the case went cold because we didn't have a cool name. Really? Yeah, she gave him a cool name. And it was

made it very, very fun when he was caught and there were, there are there's footage of press conferences with the police they're being asked. Like, did the work of Michelle McNamara have anything to do with capturing And he goes, this one guy goes, Michelle McNamara's work had nothing to do with the capture of the Golden State Killer. And I'm just like, you just use the name that she gave.

That's the thing that helped keep, put it back in the news. And it happened two years after the book came out. Well, it happened very shortly after the book came out because I went on a book tour and they were to promote it. And the second day of the book tour is when they caught him. And if you watch the documentary on HBO, they have the moment on camera in Liz Garbis, who is the director, the next morning we're leaving Chicago. It's like 5 a.m. and she's filming us going, I guess he just got caught and we're all reacting to it. Like, what do we do now? This is insane.

Oh, was it? Yeah. Joseph James DeAngelo. Joseph James DeAngelo. Joseph James, James, James, yeah. What, who by the way, in court, in his wheelchair, oh, withered. and all um weak and then there's of course footage of him when he goes into his cell pops out of the wheelchair doing pull-ups just trying to get sympathy with it just a complete psycho what uh

dealing with michel's passing was that the hardest thing you've had to do in your life no hardest thing uh was the next day after she died having to tell our daughter that was the hardest day of my life i will never go through something that horrible having to tell a little girl that her mom has died. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, wow. Can we talk about movies again? What, I mean, well, it's, it's, it's just, it's that thing where I, one of her, one of her, one of her core memories is going to be of her dad taking something away from her in a way. But you know that's not true. I know that's not true, but that's where my mind went is that I don't, is that I don't, I don't want her to have the best life possible, and I don't want moments where she has to think

about something being ripped out of her life that was so sustaining and nurturing. And I don't want that to be a memory that she goes to of loss. Well, how is she doing now? She's doing great. She's doing fantastic. And you guys are close? Very. I mean, obviously we got, I just spent every, I I would drop her off at school and then park outside the school and just sit there and read and wait until three o'clock and then pick her up and we'd go get food and hang out. Like, that's all I wanted to do. And then it wasn't until, you know, I met my new wife who I met her like a year after that and just this, truly the term stepmom, stepping into the most awful situation and making it better. It was just amazing. Meredith Salinger. Oh, my God. Did you think that after her passing, Michelle's passing,

that you'd never find someone again? Never. I had, that was absolutely, not only that I never thought I'd find someone again, I really, I got, I had this thing where it's like, um, first I was like, I'm not going to be able to live, but then I'm like, well, I have to live because my, because of my daughter. Like, okay, I can merely exist. I'm not going to feel joy or anything again, but I can merely exist and I can get up in the morning and get her breakfast and get her to school and all this stuff. And then another father at her school had lost his wife and years before and said, I know this is going to sound weird and maybe even a little offensive. You will experience joy again.

You'll experience love again, maybe even quicker than you think. I know it doesn't feel that way, but the body wants to heal itself. And also your body and your soul is going to want to feel joy so that your daughter will be around joy. You know what I mean? Like so that she can experience you experiencing joy so she sees that the world has joy. So there was, so I was very worried about because I met Meredith. We first started talking 11 months after Michelle passed. We never, we never met in person. We just talked on Facebook. We had all these friends in common and started talking on Facebook every night. And And I love it because Meredith is so smart.

And it was like I missed having somebody to talk to in the dark at the end of the day. That's the best thing about like really being in love and being connected with someone is let's hash out the world at the end of the day. Yeah. Every night we get on Facebook chat and just talk, not flirting. And you're like, what's happening here? What the hell is going on and, you know? And she knew what had happened to Michelle and was, you know, but normally that would maybe people would fear that or be like, oh, no, no, no, no. I don't want a part of it. But she, well, Meredith's also fearless. So we, and for three months, we just talked every night. We never spoke in the phone, never met in person. I just wanted to talk. I wanted someone to talk to. And that's beautiful. And it turned into, we fell in love with each other. And then we met that May face to face. And then we got engaged in July and married to November. How does Alice like her? Alice loves her. Alice is also a teenager who is doing what.

a teenager does with their parents, which is, oh, God, leave me alone, you know. And so I have to like tell both of them, it's like, you know, like, mom is getting on my nerves. I'm like, I know that you, because she's like, it was sometimes, sometimes Alice has gone, it was so much easier with Michelle. I'm like, because you were six, if you were the, if you were now 15, Michelle would be probably even harder on you than Meredith is. You, you know, you would not be on your phone as much as you are with you know because she hated that shit and and merrith is like why does she hate me all of a sudden because she doesn't hate you doesn't you are going through what every other teen at mom with a teenager goes through but she was so sweet when we met because

she was seven like this is what happens it's not personal she's going through her so i'm like the guy in the middle going it's meredith loves you this it would be the same thing with michelle no alice loves you she's just she's 14 that's what 14 year olds do oh my god God. She comes in. She doesn't even talk to me. Yes, that's what 14-year-olds do. How was school?

Fine. Right. That's what they say. That's all they do. It literally has nothing to do with you. Oh, my God. All right, this is called shit talking with Pat and Oswald. These are my patrons top tier.

It's rapid fire. Oh. Patreon.com slash society. You think you're supporting the podcast. Lee G. How do you manage to find the humor in great loss so much that you include in your stand-up? P.S. I use your Green Lantern.

bit as a religious argument to this day. You know, I just reminded myself that, well, I was always about you can joke about anything, but you have to make it funny. And I think a lot of times right now, everyone's like, you should be able to say anything. It's like, yeah, you can say anything. But if you don't make it funny, then, yeah, people are going to get pissed at you. So I could, you know, and by the way, there were plenty of things at times I tried to talk about Michelle's death and, you know, Alice and I going through Greece.

and it didn't get a laugh because I didn't find the bigger, funnier aspect to it or the, or the absurd aspect to it. So that's part of your job as a comedian is you also got to find out what's funny about it. You can't just go on stage and go, this is bullshit. They'd be like, what's the hook?

You know, oh, oh, boy, you can't handle it? No, we can't handle you not telling a joke. You can always go Anthony Jesselnik. Well, Anthony Jesselick is a frigginian. He's a genius. And he also, he said it so perfectly, which is you still have to be able to find a way to get away with it. Yeah, you didn't do your whole job. I love his deliver. It's like, this old man comes

to my door at 6 a.m. who has Alzheimer's every morning. And this old man with Alzheimer's knocks on my door every day. And he asked me where his wife is. And every day at 6 a.m. I have to tell this old man with Alzheimer's that his wife is dead. No, I've thought of changing my locks. I've thought of moving. But it is worth it just to see the smile on his face. I love him. I love him. He goes, I've spent three years searching for my ex-girlfriend's killer, but nobody wants to do it.

He has, he found this, he found this voice where the whole voice, and it's so funny to me, and I know what he's doing, he's doing that thing of like, you're welcome. Like, I am bestowing these jokes onto you, which is what a lot of comedians who aren't as funny as him,

they do have that feeling of like, I am a truth teller. I am bringing you the truth. So he's so making fun of that attitude. Yeah. And so it's funny anyways because it's jokes. But among comedians, it's even funny because I know exactly what he's making fun of. Could you imagine if he was doing Rodney Dangerfield jokes?

It's kind of similar. Yeah. My wife wanted to have sex in the back seat. She wanted me to drive. I was doing push-ups in the nude. And I did not see the mousetrap. Raj, recently, what has made you feel great gratitude? being um i'm starting to do um smaller clubs and not theaters and when you do a smaller club

you're in a town like Thursday through Saturday and you meet a lot more of the local comedians and you're not just like blowing in doing the show and blowing out and i'm seeing oh that's right the internet isn't real it's still people out here doing stuff and creating stuff and there there's people that are enthusiastic about this stuff and i just needed to be reminded of that. And it really has given me such a better perspective on this career. I love that. Leanne, who is your first celebrity crush? Oh, God. I mean, look, my wife's going to kill me for this because this was one of her contemporaries. It was probably Elizabeth's shoe in a karate kid. Oh, me too. Jesus Christ. And now that being said,

Meredith Salinger and Dream a Little Dream. Yes. Even Maxa Magazine was like this is I think Elizabeth got number one and she got number two in that pull because that I mean and and and Meredith is is just as beautiful to this she's insane but but I'm being if I'm being honest it was Elizabeth shoe Jessica and by the way and she knows that Meredith knows that I like how you keep I'm gonna I'm gonna get my ass you'll be fine Jessica B'd you have any lines from a film or TV series that you like to quote what are they oh my God okay um my favorite line from a TV series is an

episode. It's called Galentine's Day on Parks and Rec. And it's Ron Swanson after Leslie's boyfriend, who's played by Justin Thoreau, does this whole thing where they get

Leslie's mom back together with this guy that she knew when she was a little kid, played by John Larichette, one of the funniest guest spots I've ever seen on a sitcom. John Larichette is so funny in this. So far. And they do this whole thing.

And it's a friggin disaster. And it embarrasses him and it embarrasses her mom. And it's really awkward. And Justin's like, that was amazing how we got like. And Leslie is appalled. Like I thought this guy was cool and he just is taking delight in people's awkwardness and sadness. And then fucking Ron Swanson. I'm not going to quote this directly, but he just goes, Leslie, he's a tourist.

He comes into people's lives to get a cool anecdote. or a cool little thing he can post online, and then he leaves and doesn't care about the wreckage. He's a tourist. And it's one of the, it was like, Parks and Rec was a great, funny, entertaining show that then had these moments of like,

God, that is such a deep truth out of nowhere. Yeah. You know, that idea, and that encapsulated so much of our online culture now. It's like, you're just a tourist. You don't give a fuck about anything, you know. Yeah. And I, it reminded me, I don't want to be that.

Like I, I, I've had those moments when I've, like, filmed something being awkward or commented on something. And I still slip and do that, but I don't want to be a fucking tourist. I like that. So there's that line from Parks and Right. And then there's another line from a, uh, a line from if, I mean, a lot of people quote this, but the, um, the line from Citizen Kane where that, where he goes, um, they're trying to figure out what Rosebud means. And he goes, well, maybe it was a girl. He goes, I don't think he would live a life. And the one thing he remembers is some girl. And then Sidney Bernstein, his editor tells that holster, he goes, I don't know. When I was a young man, I was crossing on

the Staten Island Ferry, saw a girl. The Ferry coming the other way. She had a white dress on. She was looking like she was anticipating something. Don't know what she was wondering about. Never spoke to her. I saw her all of three seconds. week hasn't gone by or I haven't thought about that girl. Like, it's just this amazing monologue. Yeah, and by the way, it's just him sitting in a desk talking and you absolutely see the scene. Like, and I think even people, it's like the,

it's like the scene in persona where she talks about meeting the boys on the beach and there's people that insist that, well, that's scenes in the movie. No, they're just describing it. You never see it happen. I love that. Let me ask you this. All the acting roles, all the stuff of you, now you're doing a show, you're hosting a show.

Yeah. called the 1% club. Now let me ask you, it's not, is it easy? Is it easy to host something? I thought it was, look, I'm not going to lie, it's actually kind of easy. It is. Here's why. Half the show is crowdwork.

I'm just talking to people and I'm interested in, like I like their lives and I can create kind of through lines with them because a lot of them are there for really interesting reasons. Like, why do you want to win the money? Well, I want to, you know, take my family to China all as a group because to see, like, there's people out there not just like, I want a spa day. Like, there's a whole other story going on that they want to complete. And you realize, oh, this game show that I'm hosting is just a blip in a way bigger,

interesting movie going on in their attempt to find this money to go do this thing, this quest or whatever. So that is very intriguing for me. So because I'm so interested in that, it's not like I'm going, oh, God, I'm going to talk to these people. Like, I want to find out what's going on. And then the rest of the show, the questions are genuinely really clever. They have nothing to do with your knowledge of trivia.

It's all just, can you put things together logically? Like what? I'll give you a question right now. I'll fail it. If one equals five and two equals 25 and three equals 100 and four equals 150, what does five equal one equals five one equals five two equals 25 25 three equals 100 four equals 150 yeah and then so what does five equal 300 I have no idea what is you know it's I know I'm a visual person I gave you the answer in the question.

You said five equals something? What did I? If one equals five and two. One. None of the other stuff mattered. And that was a question? That was one of the questions. And did they get it?

Some people got, yeah, but that was like a 30% question or something. Like that's, you start with questions. Because I was thinking like incrementally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you have to pay attention to the way the questions asked. That's interesting. So, but there's 90%, the, the, the, the questions are based on how many people would get it right.

So the first question is a 90, that means 90% of people got it right. And it's usually really easy. Right. And then we go 80%. That's fun. Ryan loves it. I'm going to watch it.

Yeah. There was a British version and then there was an Australian version and then I'm the American version and they sent me all the British versions and I ended up watching the whole season because it was really genuinely fun. And because it's about how your brain works. Your brain is shaped by your experience. you'll watch the show and you'll go out on like a 70% question but then they'll get to the fucking 1% question like I know you immediately know it it will drive you crazy what I know this is there a lot of money in the sports betting when you did the sports betting commercial um I think there's a lot of money in the sports betting world well yes but do they pay the actors a lot to do those seizures um it's it's it's nice money it's easy it's very easy I make it to work with jb smooth who I love you loved it yeah Yeah, yeah.

You could tell you guys were having fun. It was a blast. What else is going on that I need to know about that you're working on? I mean. And by the way, did you like, you worked with Seinfeld? Yes. Did you like it? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I loved doing, that was my first acting gig ever. Yeah. And the reason I got that role is because when I was auditioning, because I play a guy who's, um, George Costanza's trying to rent breakfast at Tiffany's and I won't, because it's already even rented out. And he's like, well, can you tell me who has it? I can, like, go. I'm like, I can't tell you that.

And then in my audition, and Larry David told me this later, and I didn't realize I did this, but I subconsciously started looking around for what other employee can I pass this guy on to because I had worked in retail for so many years. And that's what you do when you have a bad customer. Who do I get this guy to? And I did that. And he was like, oh, I love that. So I got that role.

And then I got to do comedians and cars. It was really fun. I love it. You have a good life. You have a charm life. I'm very, very great. I'm grateful. I'm fucking grateful.

And I also get to the thing that I love doing and I'm going to be working on it after this is I write a comic book for a dark horse called Minor Threats. And now we have spin-off titles and other writers have pitched us and we're doing a whole second series of it. And we're just building this whole world and it's frigging amazing. And then you can turn it into like a series. We'll see what happens. Knock, knock on, give me that wood. Not wood right here. Where's good?

That's wood right here. That's what. this has been an absolute treat i honestly love your energy i love your honesty your uh sensibility just everything you just have a good outlook on things thank yeah i i try to look i i the there was one year in 1993 i made 11 000 dollars that whole year doing stand-up it was enough to pay my rent and feed me and i'm like i made it i made it all i got to do is stand-up this is great so everything else from that point on i've always thought of it from that point on and that i think it keeps me grateful and enthusiastic rather than why aren't I doing this, you know.

Yes, I compare sometimes and I get competitive, but I always remind myself, wait a minute, you fucking made it. Yeah. What are you worried about? You made it. I think there's part of that, part of that in all of us where for me, I remember being in New York, uh, rollerblading to telemarketing, living with three guys in a one bedroom and going, you have $270 in the bank.

Yeah. You could live till next month. month. Oh, I remember that. This check coming in. And then five years later, okay, you have $6,000 to your name. And even to this day, I'm like, all right, how many years can I survive? My business manager, like, stop it. Yeah. Go work. I still, I don't know if you ever did this. I remember going to the phone company in downtown San Francisco and going, my bill is $75. If I give you $50, can, and then if you put the 25 of my next one, like I would literally do that. I can pay some of

this? How much can you get this going? That's when you could talk to a person. I don't think you can do that anymore. Yeah. No one cares. No one. They don't give a shit. Sorry, sir. This is awesome. I wish you continued success. You too, man. Not only work, but with the family and Alice. And it'll all work out. Wait a minute, what? It'll all work out. I mean, with you and, you know, Meredith and Alice, it's all, you know. That's a very loaded phrase, though and it's all going to work out it's great but she's a teenager yeah exactly that's right that's like when you come up stage as a comedian the club owner goes you know what fuck these people don't worry about it wait what not don't worry about it i thought it tonight sucks it's not a good night

thanks for being here thank you i loved him i didn't know him i never met him and he just was filled with enthusiasm and knowledge and life and uh i wish him the best only the best you know you love him oh my god yeah why don't you tell him yeah you're weird about that stuff you don't really tell i force you to get pictures with people i know i appreciate that with billy d williams i did that with um John Rees Davies Cano. Yeah, because I want you to enjoy it.

I know you want to, but you don't want to feel like, I don't want to bother them, so I bother them. So you're welcome, Ryan. It's nice one Bill this here too, so that you can also get some of the blunt, some of the, some of the. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But it was great.

Listen, if you didn't listen to the intro and all the great stuff that's going on, please listen to it and follow us on. handles at inside of you podcast on instagram and facebook and at inside of you pod on twitter write a review it certainly helps and watch on youtube subscribe spread the word and join patron if you want to support the podcast which really helps this podcast stay afloat uh patreon.com slash inside of you and thank you patten for being on the podcast it was glorious very glorious now it's time for the top tiers these are the folks that um go above and beyond and give this podcast, more love than I don't know what to deal with. So Nancy D. Leon Kristen, Little Lisa,

E. Keiko, J. E. Brian H. Nico P. Robert B. Jason W. Sophie M. Raj C. Jennifer N. Stacey L. Jamal F. Janelle B. Mike E. Eldon Supremo, 99 more. Santiago M. and Leanne P. Dave Hall. Michelle A, Jeremy C, Mr. M, Eugene, and sweet Leah, and vice versa, the salty ham, Mel S, Chris, Eric H, Oracle, Amanda R, William K, Kevin E, Jarrell, Jam and Jamm and J, Leanne, J, Luna R. What did you say? Oh, I have that sometimes. I just, I really think I've liked it. Good for you.

Where do we stop? Uh, yeah. Mike F, Jules M, Jessica B, Klee J., Charlie, Charlene A. Conti. Jen, Carolina girl. Going to Carolina with Jen, the Carolina girl. Nick W., hell, Nick W. Stephanie and Evan, known as Stefan.

Charlene A. Don G. Don Giovanni, Jenny B-76, John, Jennifer R, Tina E, NG, Tracy, Keith B, Heather and Greg, Ellie K, Elizabeth L. Ben B. Jammin, Pierre C, Susie Q, Sulton, Ingrid C, Brandon C. Couldn't do this podcast without you guys. I love you. I adore you. Spread the word. And from the Hollywood Hills in Hollywood, California, I am Michael Rosenbaum. Ryan's here. A little way to the camera. We love you guys. Please, please, please be good to yourself. I'll see you very soon.

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