Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - Rainn Wilson

Episode Date: July 9, 2019

Rainn WIlson (The Office, Super, Hesher) discusses his troubles with career obsession while playing Dwight in The Office and how it ultimately made Rainn the person an a-hole. Rainn opens up about his experiences with loss of life, his belief of purpose through the Baha'i Faith, and growing up a child of divorce who had to navigate his father’s apprehensions with acting. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Mia is here with me, our engineer slash editor. Mia, for those of you who did know, is a trans woman, right? Yeah, I would say most of your listeners probably don't know that. Why would they know? They would know. So this is the first time we're telling you. Mia is a trans woman.

She is our engineer. She used to be Tyler. Yeah, people have probably heard me on the show before. Today's guest, Rain Wilson. This guy blew me away. I mean, he stopped me at some point and goes, we're getting deep. You don't want to talk about Dwight or any of that, right? He's like, I really like this because we're not, we just got really deep.

I think this was really helpful to me. I hope it's helpful to you. Yeah, you guys talked a lot about faith and having a rough childhood and a little bit about the office. It was a really great episode. I felt that way too. I felt like he just really opened up and he goes, wow. And he took a deep breath.

And then he would start talking about his father and his stepmother and things that would happen. and the journey along the way and when he got success he said, you know, I was a bit of an asshole at some point in my life. I go, wait, wait, what? You? Because you don't get that when you're talking to him, right? Yeah, he's just not at all like the characters that he plays on screen. He's just so

normal and personable and great to talk to him. Yeah, he was just a really wonderful interview and I think you're going to really enjoy getting inside, Rayne Wilson. It's my point of view. You're listening to inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum Inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum

was not recorded in front of a live studio audience Somebody made that, some fan made that. I thought that was from Funko. I wish that would have meant this podcast is tremendously successful. I mean, it is a success, but tremendous would mean Funko made a pop doll out of me.

Is it a pop doll? Is that what it's called? Yeah, they're just doing a Dwight one. Really? I got a Lex Luthor one, but you have a Dwight one? I want to bring them Mike closer to you. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

You have the craziest guests on here. I mean, most of them makes sense, but then you've got like Jeannie Bus? Like, what's up with that? That's so weird. You know, Jeannie and I became friends years ago, and I don't know anything about basketball and I didn't ever go to a basketball game. And she was a fan of Smallville. And she came up to me and started talking to me at some event.

And I go, oh, cool. She goes, well, if you ever want to come to a game, here's my card. And I go, cool. And then I go, Vice President of the Lakers. Now she's the president. Yeah. And so I email, I said, hey, you know, you said to a game. She goes, you have four tickets in valet.

I think that was early 2000. She said, after the game, she goes, Michael, I'm serious. I had so much fun with you and your friends. You're so fun. You are welcome to come to any game ever whenever you want you just to. So then slowly became friends. She came to my Halloween bath. She came to like, she brought Kurt Rambis.

That's fantastic. Rambus was dressed as Kurt Rambus from the 80s with the goggles and stuff. I always wondered, I always thought how fun it would be for me to dress as Dwight. Why not? And people would look and be like, is that the, I can't possibly be the, is that the. Do you dress up for Halloween? You know, I did when we went out with my son. My son is 14 now and, yeah, there's several years.

One year we went as a vampire family. That was really fun. All three of us were vampires. Where do you go? Do you go around the neighborhood trick-a-treating with them? We've gone all over, you know, all over. We're out in Agora Hills out in the suburbs, sometimes Calabasas and sometimes Malibu and, yeah. You got a really sexy voice.

Thank you. I'm not hitting on you. I'm just saying when we've met at various places, I was like, you know, I didn't notice the voice as much as I do now, but it's resonating with the, with the microphone. Maybe are you feeling the sexiness through the mic? I'm getting it a little bit, yeah. Isn't that weird when you get around a mic, you just kind of. It's a little different when you have a mic and then you have the cans on your head, you know, and you hear your voice.

Do you like your own voice? A little late-night DJ. I like my voice. Yeah. I actually had a radio show when I was in high school, and I was thinking one of the paths of my life could have gone in is like radio DJ. Me too. I was a DJ in college.

I had a Sunday night shift from 10 to 2 in the morning and no one listened. So I'd say, hey, if you're the fifth caller, you'll get a six-inch subway, which I would pay for. And you'd get three calls. No, I would end up going, if you're the first caller, nobody calls. And then I said, okay, that subway goes out to Jerry Nunn, who coincidentally was my roommate in college. So, yeah, but it was fun. I liked, there was something about being alone, but being with the music and having the choice to play what you want.

You're talking to an audience, hoping some people are really enjoying it. Yeah. And it just felt like I thought I might become a DJ. I really considered that or a sports announcer. You could still do this. Could you be a sports announcer? Would you do that? Do you know a lot about sports?

I know a lot of, I know a good amount about sports. I know from looking at me and like knowing my life, I know a lot more about sports than you would think that I would know. Right. But mostly NFL, but also a little NBA. So how would you commentate a game if you had like just a moment or two? I don't think funny people should do that. Remember that failed Dennis Miller experiment with Dennis Miller on Monday Night Football?

Yeah. Remember that? Yeah, it just didn't work. I did not work at all. And he's a bright guy. And he loves the game and he's super smart and it just didn't fit. Well, you know what you want? I think when people listen to a game or they listen to a baseball or football game,

it's comfort. Here's the pitch on the, is it. That's right. It's just something that's relaxing. Now it's honey-do season, folks. Honey do this and honey do that. Fans filing it off the subway ramps a beautiful day for a ball game. And you're just like, oh my gosh, I just want to sit around and relax.

Yeah. That's a baseball thing. NFL is, I like to watch NFL sometimes with the sound off, because they just don't shut up. And my wife always talks about that. Like, why don't they ever just stop talking? Like, you don't have to talk every square inch all the time. But it's just just constant. Like, oh, that was good.

Got the bleach is there. You know, when he was drafted, you know, time and time again, he's proved. You know what I mean? It's a constant. It is. But don't you think they're thinking, oh, my gosh, it's five seconds since I've spoken. people are like what's going on are they going to the bathroom what are they doing it they're gonna get bored are they just justifying their jobs like why am i here if i'm not constantly talking i think so i think they have they feel like especially joe buck got a lot of heat right you know joe buck people a lot of hate males what was that all about i don't know i didn't follow the joe buck controversy yeah there was a big controversy with him he's getting so much hate and he was on stern and he's just got yeah those guys i think some of them like to i wonder if that's how they talk when they're at home you know like Like, hey, have you seen Johnny?

Johnny's outside and the garden is just a bit to the right of the home, pulling some daisies. I mean, is that a, is that a, they don't talk like that. They can't talk like that. I think they have that ability. They have that ability to just stream sentences together. Yeah, yeah. And that's part of why they're hired. You have that ability.

That's why you're a podcast host. Yeah. You know, that's scary too because my whole life I've been an actor. And, but now you can do things. You were an actor before you were a podcast artist? A podcast artist. Is that what they're called now? Podcast artist.

I kind of like that. Yeah. I want to be called an artist. Yeah. I still love acting and all that, but there's something about this for me that I never thought I'd like. There's just something about it that I feel, I don't know, a connection. I'm able to really listen to people.

Not that I don't listen in my real life, but it forces you to really listen to people and get to know them and see what sort of makes them tick and see how did they it's just interesting it's become interesting at first i thought it was like i'm an actor and hopefully people can listen to my thing and i'll just make an income out of this it'll be a supplemental and then i just sort of go this is fun to talk to people every day they come to your house and you have some water there's a little uh there's a little therapy aspect to it you just nailed it because that's what it is for me for me it's it's kind of like going hey if rain's a little effed up then maybe it's okay for me to i'm actually going to therapy after

podcast. Is that true? That is absolutely true. My therapist is in the valley. Really? Have you been going a while? I've been going for a long time. Yeah. I have too. And in fact, I've just started saying this, but I'm going to a treatment center. Oh, wow. Yeah, not for alcohol, drugs or sex or anything, but for just, you know, just to get my mind clear. And it's just a, yeah, I just after all these years. Where is it? Can you say? It's on the East Coast, the Upper East Coast. Okay. That would be New England. All right. That would be around that. Is it the one that Kit Harrington went to that was like $20,000 a day or something like that? I couldn't afford that.

But it could be. In podcast money, with all the podcast money rolling in? Yeah, well, but is it like a meditation thing? I think it's, I think it's a combination of the world's best psychiatrists and therapists and yoga teachers and chiro's and acupuncture and. I went to a place like that. Where? I went to a place. Upper West Coast, was it?

No, I went to, I'll say the name of it because it's really cool. It's called PC. in Scottsdale, and they do all kinds of intensives. It's like you go 12 hours a day. You're in group, and you're single, and they have a lot of different people with addictions there, so they have people that are getting alcohol treatment and drug treatment and sex addiction treatment

and, you know, all kinds of different codependent stuff. But then there's just people that are just digging into issues, you know. And I was kind of in that realm, just kind of digging into some deeper issues, like you said, like family stuff and just clearing my head stuff and getting to the bottom of some stuff. And it was really cool. I'm going to a place called Privae Swiss. And it is the, I believe it's probably the place that Kit went to. I don't know. That sounds fancy. But it's, you know what it is? It is a couple of friends, people have mentioned it and they're like, listen, I think you truly benefit from it. And I figure like, if you're going to

invest in a house or if you're going to invest in material things or certain you know you're going to spend money why not spend money on your well-being listen especially if you come from a fucked up family and you didn't gain certain life skills like i didn't learn about how to do interpersonal relationships from my parents who are terrible at them yeah yes me too i've had to kind of like learn myself and i've got a lot of bad habits and patterns that come from childhood traumas and and whatnot and why not spend like one hour a week like what's the big deal it's one hour a week you know 100 bucks I'm 1100 bucks or something like that but to improve myself to learn about myself to to dive deep into my emotions and trauma and background and family and current relationships and relationship to work and career and self image and my spiritual journey and life journey so it's it's an investment that's way more important than going to the gym yes but people will always pay the whatever money for trainers and going to the gym isn't that something yeah that they won't work out their mind yeah it's like no I'm fine as long as they look good

and their hearts and their souls you know I think that's true I just was listening to uh an interview with Howard Stern Anderson Cooper on CNN hmm I didn't hear that way interviewed Howard Stern and and Howard Stern started talking about psychotherapy and how it's really saved his life yeah he talks about trauma and like all these things and it's like that his parents were so horrible it was more like he always wanted to um get approval from his father yeah his father worked in radio and he was just like oh god he works in radio if i and he saw how he reacted to radio hosts and he's and he was sort of enamored by them and he says wow if i could do this maybe he would give me that respect or that approval that i need and and it's something that seems so like for a long time i

felt like i can't do this because you know people are going to think i'm crazy or i'm this and I'm an adult now. Get over it, dude. Forgive people. And I go, I do. I forgive. I forgive my dad. I love my dad.

I forgive my mom. She's insane. In my head, I forgive because I know that that's the way to do it. It doesn't solve it. It's like sometimes my mind and my body don't connect. My mind is somewhat fairly on the lower end of sophisticated. We'll say, dude, you're an adult now. This is the right thing to do.

You need to do it. But my body reaction. in a different way, whether it's fight or flight and its stress levels. And I came to a place where I'm like, I'm too stressed all the time. I wake up with anxiety. I'm worrying about too many things. My head's cloudy. I can't compartmentalize. I can't do all these things. So I'm like, I just, I need somebody to fucking help me. I need, I need right now is the time because I want to be the best human being and the best, maybe the best actor, the best podcast artist, whatever it is, I can be. So why the hell not? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. This guy that I've been going to now for, quite a few years down in the valley he does this gestalt therapy which is i don't know a whole lot about what i haven't like read books about it or anything but i know that that's what it's called what he does but it's actually really interesting for actors because what he'll do is like if there's some issue like let's say there's a part of myself that's really belittling like i'm just like oh rain you fuck that up and you're such an idiot and you'll never make it and you no one respects you

whatever like let's say that voice is coming up i don't I'll talk about that in therapy and he'll say oh who is that guy sit him down in the chair across from you now have a conversation with him with that person that's in your head literally so I'll say like hey who are you why do you beat me up like this what I'm doing a piss poor job of him but you know I'll talk to him and then I'll go sit and he'll go now go be that guy go sit in the chair and talk to you and then I'll go sit in the chair you mean respond respond to what you respond as as that voice in your head oh my god that that seems so so then i'll go sit in the chair and i'll be like rain you little pussy piece of shit what the fuck are you doing you you lose or you

fucking belittle he'll be like belittle me and then i'll go back and i'll switch again and i'll be rain and i'll talk to this guy and be like you can't talk to me that way blah blah blah and then after you do that like six eight times switching and then you kind of like you feel done or whatever sometimes it's emotionally cathartic sometimes it's not like you have a much greater understanding of like who is that voice in your head and what's my relationship to that voice in your head so it it doesn't own you that voice doesn't own you you see it as just a part of yourself but what if you're going what if your response is you're absolutely right everything you just said is exactly right then you got some serious work to do what if you're like yeah then you're being then you're being victimized by this voice in

your head and you're just lit you're living as a victim and And you've got to do some other kind of work to get at that. And you feel like this really was cathartic. It was helpful to you? I've done it dozens of times. And is it weird the first time in front of this person? It's so weird. You're like, I can't do this.

It's so self-conscious. You feel like such a... You can also do it by writing, by the way. You can just do it in a journal. And you can be yourself and write and then be the character and write. And then you can do that and bring it in... Can you do it alone? Can I do it like when no one's around except my assistant in the other room?

And I'm like, Michael, you're such a fucking idiot. And then, no, you're not. Why don't we do it right now, Michael? What are you afraid of? Oh, my God. I don't think I could do it. I don't think I could do it. It's hard, but here's the deal.

You get to a certain point where he's like, I'm so fucking tired of these voices in my head owning me. Like, you'll just do it. You'll just be like, fuck it. I'm just going to fucking do it. Yeah. I'm going to look like an idiot. I'm going to feel so self-conscious. You get a greater peace and understanding of yourself on the other side.

You're like, okay. This is humiliating and weird and uncomfortable, but I'm just going to do it because I know that what's on the other side is a greater tranquility and wisdom. Wow. That's profound. And I haven't heard that before, that sort of thing,

but maybe that's what I'll be doing at this place. And I feel like, you know, I have a lot of, you know, I've had surgery and stuff and I have this pain and things. And I'm wondering how much could be emotional. Did you ever have any kind of pain?

Did you ever deal with any pain? I haven't dealt with that. No. I'm sorry. I feel bad. I know you've had the, I've heard. Thanks for being here.

I've heard. you had these surgeries and that you've you've been through some some shit some shit but you know I'm still able to do like you'll look great by the way you look like you're chipper you're sharp your you're handsomer than ever and uh thank you yeah switch seats with me now you have great teeth by the way by the way these are these are knocked out kind of from hockey's injury so I got these well you know it's funny they're falsies well just these top ones but on my um manager once Dave Becky who represented a lot of the big guys I know Dave you know Dave and this was back in the day when he represented like mark merrin i think he still does what but this was

early on new york like i was the only actor and it was like five other five big comedians and i remember he said to me because i was on the show he was like i had these like fangs because i got punched in the face and so these two middle ones were in and the fangs are kind of out he said uh i want you to fix your teeth and i go what he's like i just think you're going to get bigger roles and you'll it will help you i think you're a character actor right now and you can still do that but I think if you want some lead roles and you want to be considered as this, I think you should get them fixed. And I got a retainer and straightened my teeth out. Yeah.

And I booked a lead part within like six months. Look at that. And so that was actually good advice, you know, where I don't even know where that story came from when I said it. Do you know? I have no idea. Oh, because we were talking about my teeth, but that's why. And that you look good. And then.

Yeah. No, I got my teeth. I got my teeth fixed too. I mean to say your smile. They're great. They're good teeth. And they're okay. Why?

Should it sit in the chair. But I had, who's that voice? Who's that voice telling you? Your teeth are just okay. Rain, your teeth suck. No, they don't. They're straight. They're almost perfectly white.

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And it was yesterday you had to put your dog down. And, you know, I'm sitting here with an 11 year old dog who I'm starting to think that and feel that. And I'm like, why is he here? Oh my gosh. How did he, how was he able to manage? I would have completely understood if you said, hey, Rosie, I can't do it. Michael, I can't come over. I just lost my dog.

Are you, is it something, do you like to keep busy so you don't dwell on those things? Is that sort of... So this is a great topic, and I think it's a really under-explored topic. So our dog was 16 years old, and we had the vets come and put her down in our yard. And we had a ceremony for her. And 16 for a pit bull is like ancient, and everything was falling apart about her. She was incontinent. She would fall down.

She was not able to pick herself up. So sometimes we just find her by the water bowl, and we don't know if she was there 10 minutes or an hour she was on pain meds it had been for the last year and you come to a certain point of like well when is this time you know she's just every week she's getting worse every time you get a dog it's an emotional time bomb of you know 12 to 15 years at some point that bomb is going to go off and it's like it's a much larger discussion just about the miracle of life and the cycle of life and that things come into existence and things that I'm thinking about my own mortality. I'm 53 years old. You know, I am more than halfway through my life. I'm not,

I can't, I don't have that kind of standard. It's about mortality and like what the world is about. So, you know, I wept. I wept my eyes out. I was there with my wife. We held each other. We cried. We wrote poetry to her. We wrote things. My son wrote a haiku for the dog. And we, you know, we, we, we prayed and kind of meditated with her in the garden and just gave her flank steak from Whole Foods, you know, and just we had a beautiful ceremony. And I guess why I'm here is because I grieved. I was able to cry and really grieve. We knew it had been coming and it was coming for months in advance.

So we were prepared. And also because I believe that things die and especially animals. And if you go to a farm or just watch a nature show, like right now, Michael, animals are dying all over the planet. People, animals. And people. Everyone goes. dying and things are getting born

all the fucking time and it's and it's beautiful and it's scary and it's part of the miracle of being alive. Well you said something also right before we started feeling where you were talking about like people sometimes they just keep they want to do everything to keep that animal alive

and how it's sort of selfish in a way. It is selfish. They have a dog's in a catheter and has an IV for diabetes and they're giving radiation treatments and I took my dog in for its sixth $5,000 radiation treatment, you know, and it's, and it's like, guys, guys, let it, let it go and take that money and, and rescue other pets, you know, or give it to a dog

rescue organization or, you know, instead of spending that $30,000 to keep your, your dog alive. And it's, if they're in pain and great discomfort, then it's, then it's time to let them go. and I just noticed on your shelf that you have the dummies guide to Judaism Yeah, and you know, I'm so dumb Judaism for dummies. Have you even read it? No, that's how dumb I am. I couldn't even read it. You haven't even

read it. Well, look right next to it. Dummies on religion. I, like, I probably read about 20 pages on the shitter, but that was... And there's a Jew in America, too? You know, inadvertently, I put a Jew in America book right in between the Judaism for dummies and religion for dummies.

I've read a lot of these books, believe it or not mostly history books yeah but uh i don't know a lot about religion i was just talking about that i was like you know i'd like to learn a little bit more about religion i have friends i have close friends who are Mormons who are catholic who are jewish who are called themselves atheists or agnostic and you know and that's an interesting topic because you are part of a religion right yes i am how do you pronounce it bahai bahai yeah and i just i read a little bit about it and it just seems like, I could be wrong because I don't know a lot about it, but it just seems like it's almost everything combined in a way. It's sort of like it's nothing's wrong. No religion is

wrong. That's that's a good way of looking at it. There's certainly more to it than that. But yeah, the Baha'i faith believes in the essential divinity of all of the world's major religions. So that all of these divine teachers have been sent by God to give man a gradually unfolding spiritual lesson plan, whether it's, you know, Krishna or the Buddha or Moses or Abraham or Jesus and Muhammad that they're all from one God and giving different messages at different points in time around the world. And Baha'is also believed that a new dude came down, his name is Baha'u'llah, which is a title that means the glory of God. And Baha'u'llah came in Persia in the mid-1800. So Baha'is are also followers of Baha'u'llah. But we also at Baha'i meetings, we'll read from

the Bible, read from the New and Old Testament, from the Quran, from the Bhagavad Gita, you know, and we believe in all of these religions. So it's sort of a culmination of all these things. Yeah. And it's, yeah, but is it still a monotheistic? Monotheistic, yeah, with one God and this God. And it's, you know, and, you know, God gets a bad name. I actually have been pitching a TV show that I think has just been turned down everywhere around town called the notorious GOD, where I want to kind of do my own exploration of like, what God? And God is. Okay, because everyone's like, oh, I don't believe in God. But then if you talk to them, they're like, they definitely believe in something more than just physical molecules.

They just don't believe in an old white guy on a beard who's really judgmental scowling down and shooting lightning bolts and, you know, that kind of God. So in the modern world, we need a new definition or a new understanding of what divinity is or what sacred is and what spiritual is and what the soul is you know it's we have to reject these kind of these old really limited kind of tropes around those ideas yeah and i and i know what i do not like what i do not like is when people say well i'm gonna you know i follow jesus and i do all these things because i want to go to heaven right instead of you know so you so you don't want to do you want to do it just because you want to go to heaven that's why you believe you

believe in this as opposed to sort of having an understanding and a feeling of faith or hey we're all created by something like this microphone is somebody created that you know and I believe in all evolution obviously in the big bang theory a guy named Keith in Dayton Ohio created this microphone

there you go something can't come from nothing I don't know so I went through an atheist phase when I kind of I grew up Baha'i and I rejected it for a long time and was in a just doing my own thing in New York City and was an atheist phase and but then at the end of the day like when I would really deeply think about being an atheist like okay so 14 billion years ago there was a spec and that spec exploded and made all energy matter

and molecules and then solar systems and galaxies were created and then single cell organisms and then and then all of this stuff was created but there's no purpose or meaning or anything behind it it just is it just happened it just hey shit happens and then i think about myself like i'm just an animal just like dear sweet una who we put down the other day and i'm just having my experience and then i'm going to die and my consciousness will just disappear forever and it doesn't make any sense to me at the end of the day for me that worldview that universe view and there are people who absolutely it makes sense to them but for me it doesn't my life experience of going through the world is emotional and spiritual and physical and psychological and, you know, I feel connectivity and I listen and I

have experiences and I gain wisdom. And mine isn't just kind of like, oh, I'm this kind of bio-robot in this purposeless universe. And there's something nice about looking at something and going somebody to create, that's faith right there. That's that, come on. Yeah. What's that right there? That's sunset. That's just so beautiful. And then people argue the whole thing. There's a lot of reasons why people do. And I have friends who are atheists and they'll just say, I just don't believe. I don't believe this i go it's nice to think that there is something bigger than all of us well not to mention that i believe that and remember i haven't read the idiots guide to judaism i haven't read so i don't know what i'm talking about it's just a feeling all right but if i if i made the show the notorious

god you watch it though damn right i would yeah absolutely event television because you'd explore like game of thrones you would turn it on when it was on the tv so someone dies everyone's expendable i don't know what that means i mean i mean In the Game of Thrones, every character dies. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Did you watch Game of Thrones? Oh, of course.

Did you love it? Loved it, yeah. I loved it. I'm not one of those cynics that are like, you know, I didn't dissect it like everyone else did. I just felt like this is a major motion picture every week and I'm really enjoying it. Until the final episode, I was like, boy, what, what just happened. Yeah.

That's how I think a lot of people felt like that. And I'm not that critical. Like I'll say Breaking Bad. Oh, I love the ending. What a great ending. I had some issues with the last season. It was a lot of people. It felt rushed.

It felt rushed. It just was like, and I, because I think the showrunners were kind of like, oh, we want to get on to our next gig. Yeah. Let's, how can we tie this up? I mean, they defeated the Knight King in one episode. Like, that took one episode. Like, let's have a big battle and then he'll get stabbed and then we're done.

Okay. Let's on on to Circe. And then John Snow just kills DeNarius like that and the dragon flies off to fucks off to nowhere. And then Ari is like, I'm going to go head out to the Western, whatever the hell I'm going. and then this dude that I've never seen is standing up talking. And that was one of the amazing things about some of the early mid seasons

is like stuff was slow and it took a long time. Yeah. What about the faceless aria with that? What happened with that? You thought she was going back and end up killing someone pretending she's someone else.

What was that season for then? That was my pitch for Game of Thrones is that one of the white walkers is there and kind of walks forward and is nodding as his grizzled weird head. And then all of a sudden, pulls off and it's aria and stabs the knight king because she's like beautiful beautiful you know that wasn't a little better but yeah it was it was just rushed there were some great moments in it

there were some beautiful uh images but it was a little rushed yeah you had a you had a pretty good childhood or no at three to five years old you already had a stepmom your parents were already divorced at a young age right my mom took off uh and when i was about two two and a half years old so i took off life was gone it's a it's a It's a weird story. Are you up for a weird story? I'm always up for a weird story. So she left me and I went with my dad and I never knew why they got a divorce and I would,

and I didn't really see her again until I was about 15. And once or twice, she came by and visited it. But I would always say to my dad, like, why did you guys get a divorce? And my dad was all, he's very kind of airy, fairy and he's kind of like, well, I don't know. We just went our separate ways, I guess. I was like, what does that mean? Like there's no grit there. There's no specifics.

What the fuck? And when I started acting in high school, my dad was always weird about it. He was always very supportive of me being an artist of some kind. But when I started acting, he was just, you could just tell. He wasn't completely all in to me being an actor. So, and I was like, what the hell's going on? So then I talked to my mom and she said, you mean your dad never told you? And I was like, no, he never said.

And she said, well, I was an actress in Seattle in the late 60s. and I was doing a play and I had an affair with the theater director and I left your dad for the theater director. So a lot of weird things kind of come together from that story like, A, why I'm an actor. I didn't even know that she had been an actress and I was drawn to acting.

So there's obviously some kind of genetic component there. Do you have a parent that was an actor or something like that? My mom did repertory theater. Okay. But my dad definitely did not want me to do that. I was the antithesis of him and he I could tell he didn't like it I wasn't you know book smart I didn't get high score in SATs I wasn't like so cerebral and and I just felt that I was I just was not the kind of son he wanted that's how I felt yeah completely and of course he's looking at me with of course

disdain for my mother because they eventually you know when she sort of emasculated him because she was always flirting with other men and probably having affairs perhaps she denies vehemently denies But my father, I think, then looked at that, like, oh, now I have his son who's a little bit like his mother when it comes to sort of, not, she's ostentatious. I wasn't ostentatious, but I was very extroverted and weird and all over the place. And he was reserved and it was like, how the fuck did I do this? I go, well, I'll tell you, it starts out with all the acid and the drugs you use back in the 60s. I don't know. I just channeled Chris Farley, but I do that occasionally.

I think he was looking at me. I remember after I did a play once in ice school, and I told the story. But he, you know, I'll be at Denny's and I was like, I'm going to be an actor. he's like eat your steak and it was just like you know he just he just you know I remember going hey I'm doing this independent movie so it's not a real movie oh what do you mean well it's an independent movie who's in it well there's up-and-comers up-and-comers I'm doing a move what I'm doing the short film why is it short a real movie's long you know it's like dad I squit three goals in the hockey game and it was a week only I mean there there were all these things that but like again like my dad was

reserved he was quiet he had you know he took on my mom with two kids from her first marriage when he was 18. I do forgive. I do. But back to the actress thing. So I think there's some similarities where I didn't realize it was like, oh, he's an actor and wants to be an actor, like his mother, who's all over. Maybe there was this slight comparison. I don't know. But she, did she have an affair with the, uh? Yeah, she had an affair with the theater and then took off with him. And then my dad was heartbroken and he had me this big ungainly infant. But he didn't tell you about it. He never told me my entire life, which I have a lot of for because you always hear about people getting divorces and just like bad-mouthing each other

constantly like your mom's a blah blah blah blah whore and your dad's an asshole blah blah blah and he always used to do that and you always hear this as kids getting put in the middle and just hearing the worst about their parents he never said a bad word about her never never one see that's all i've dealt with my whole life is your father's a piece of shit and i did this and then then you're oh your crazy mother and you're the and sometimes in the past like you'd almost let them go and side for a second on both sides and you're like, what am I doing? This is unhealthy.

So now I have a thing where I'm like, you know what, dad? Can't talk about mom. Mom, you can't talk about that. That's good for you. Just can't do that. You can't, also, mom, you can't talk about your daughter

who doesn't talk to anymore. You can't talk about your son who doesn't talk to anymore. You can't talk about all these people that I do talk to. And I, you know, and, you know, is that hard to keep that boundary? It's hard and it's also draining.

And, you know, she's like a child. She, you know, I think like, I think, I'm sure I have arrested development. Why don't you have her on this podcast? Because it would be, you know, you know why? Do you know why? She just came here and I thought about that. And I thought, I'm not, I'm not willing to do that yet.

I'm not at the point where I am, I'm vulnerable. I can be vulnerable. I can be, look, I want to surrender. I want to go to this place and surrender. All my fears, all my things are just like fucking, I'm malleable, just fucking help me. And I'm ready to change. But I got to tell you something. And this is something that's, I don't know if you dealt with, but it sounds like you didn't.

But my mother and my father, I love them. If something happened, I'd feel horrible. I, you know, but I don't trust them. I don't believe when they're telling me something immediately, my brother and I look at each other, like, that might have been 50% true. Like, it's almost like everything is just not only exaggerated. Yeah. I swear to God, I ask them both. how did you meet something that should have been just easy for them sure slam dunk

answer completely other sides of the spectrum stories wow one your father asked me from my number from the car when we're driving down the long island expressway and i yelled it and he remembered and he called me and the other one is she forced me to get her number i took it and i threw it away I threw it out the window and then I remember driving to a gas station and we're there later that night at two in the morning with my friends and who strolls in your mother pulls in she's like hey you still have my number she's like he's like no so she wrote it on my hand I she wrote it carved it in my hand and that night I went to bed and I woke up and I showered and I tried to scrub off my number I tried and it wouldn't come off the number wouldn't come so I waited and I finally said you know what I'll fucking can call her. Rain, on everything I own. These are the two stories that they come up with. And I'm like, amazing.

Amazing, but it's like, God damn it, you can't even be honest about how you fucking met. The unreliable narrator. Yeah. But they didn't lie to you, your parents. They were always pretty honest with you, except for telling you about your mom had an affair, but maybe he was trying to protect you.

Didn't want you to do. How deep are we going to go here? Listen, this is what I do, man. This is, if you're willing, like, some people come and like, I don't want to talk about that. I remember I had one guy. where they gave me the little cut cut the throat thing like don't talk about that i go oh so anyway

and i jumped to something else or they call me back and say hey i could you edit that i'm like yeah sure you know it's tough because my parents are all alive and you know my dad and my stepmom who kind of raised me and my natural mother and i don't think they're going to be listening to this but you know well thank you thanks for that but you know and i wrote a book called the bassoon king like this memoir and i talk a little bit about it in there and because you played the bassoon and clarinet and saxophone and everything in high school yeah so that's kind of a play on that right right yeah um yeah you know there's a lot it's in a lot of ways i had a really ideal childhood you know when it boils down to is this like so my dad and my stepmom she would make dinner my dad was

at work he would come home from work we would eat dinner together we would talk about the day we would watch mash on television amazing and you know and we would i would goof around and make them And then, you know, they would buy me new school clothes for September and then I would go to bed. And it was like really normal. And we lived in a house in suburban Seattle and it was like normal. But really, when I look back on it, there was no love in that house. They didn't love each other. They stayed married kind of for me, my dad and my stepmom.

I asked them both when I was writing the book. I said, when did you know that you didn't love each other and that the marriage was a mistake? And they were all like, oh, within a year of when we were in. married in 1969. And you were born in 66. Yeah. So I was like, and then they got divorced in 84, like the second I went away to college, they got divorced.

I literally was like, okay, bye mom, bye dad, going to college. See you, son. See you later. Then like, by Thanksgiving, they were divorced. So they just literally stayed together for some semblance of thinking that this would be good for me to grow up in a fucking loveless household, you know, in a just a house devoid of love and affection and hugs and laughter and that will fuck you up in some ways worse than getting like hit because if you get like beaten by a bad adult person they're the

villain and they're the bad person and it's really clear but when you grow up kind of in this like loveless petri dish of the suburbs it's you get warped in weird ways and you don't you don't understand like what that is so profound that is so profound especially for me because that's what they always said my dad would go i go well then why would you stay in the marriage why why did you do that for you kids fuck you i didn't want that it was such a passive aggressive relationship like i look back and i'm like my mother was like mark how do i look you look great and it just goes right through she doesn't it doesn't it's not sustained it's like am i pretty am i smart how's my writing am i great am i great and my dad my dad became oh yeah he went from

I love you. You're beautiful, too. Oh, yeah, you're so great, Julie. Everybody loves you. Oh, yeah. You're such a great writer. Oh, yeah. And then all of a sudden, the kids, we'd almost join in, like, oh, yeah, she's a.

And it was almost this fucked up dysfunctional. And they would always talk about the other families in the neighborhood and like, oh, the cutters, they're fucked up. And she's having an affair with Mr. Hoffman across the way. And so and so. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, my parents are so smart. And then one day I go, we're the fucked up ones

we're the most fucked up yeah we are the most dysfunctional and again this is not me talking shit this is just the reality that I lived in and I think they both are aware of it and I think you know I look back and I go dad tried he did try hard he worked his ass off I think my mother

has arrested development I don't think she went past 16 years old mentality to this day at 71 years old my assistant just goes oh my god Michael I go watch because I know what you're going through. I go, what do you mean? You know what I'm going through?

I just, I talk to your mother. It's like she's still a 16 year old girl. Wow. And yeah, it's fucked. So, yeah, go ahead. That's really great. So many bells are going off as you're talking. Like, first of all, from my wife and I, because we both come from pretty fucked up

family situations, we always call it like the love sieve. It's funny that you use a colander because her and I, like, you know, I can say every day, I love you. You're so beautiful. you know you're the light of my life I love you and the next day she's like I don't even think you love me I was like wait I just told you eight days in a row that I did and she goes I know and we joke about it and I'll do the same thing by the way and we'll joke about it that we're this love sieve like we give love but it just drains right out you know what I mean so because we're so flawed that we have to just

it has to be a daily practice of giving love before it's believed that's one thing the other thing is that's something you could work on do you work on that or is it something that's just party that you're just like, I know that's how she is, that's how I am. Yeah, I think it can get better, but I don't think it can 100% heal. I think it can get better. You know,

you can get better at, you know, developing trust and like, oh, I am loved and I do love and, you know, that that's there. But what's interesting is like going back to PCS, that place that I went in for a week-long therapy retreat thing, I had brought my parents in to do some work with them. And they were willing to come in.

God bless them. They came in and they're, early 70s to do some therapy with me. They weren't there the whole week, but they did some therapy. One of the things I remember growing up was like my stepmom had a rage problem. So she would sometimes like just blow her stack over something tiny, like literally like I left a dirty sponge in the sink. I remember one time like it had grease on it or something like that. And she lost and she would like break dishes in the sink and storm off and slam the door and just be like,

scream in this big tantrum and I was nine or 10 I'm looking around like what okay what do I do here with this information and I feel so strange and my dad would go oh what a beautiful day it is look at that bird on that branch hmm isn't that tree beautiful and so I was like nine or 10 going like what the fuck is going on here did you not how how can you do and I asked him when I was in the therapy room with him I was like dad do you remember this happening and he goes oh my god my dad he's a good guy he's a good-hearted dude and but he has like the worst childhood of all time like he suffered so much and he was his his mom died when he was a little kid in a tuberculosis farm and his dad was a total drunk and would take off and leave him

with the neighbors and like he was beaten by a really mean stepmom and they were he would get like almost starving they had like go beg to the neighbors for food i mean it was really really bad and he goes when i was a kid and things would get really really bad emotionally i would look out the window and i would find something really beautiful what and i would comment on it to myself i would tell him to do that he just did it as a defense mechanism for himself as a survival instinct to kind of look for something good like oh isn't that tree beautiful or isn't it a beautiful day or isn't the sky beautiful and so he he had this revelation he's like oh my god that's what i did when i was a kid and i was like well you did that same thing whenever christin was having a a meltdown and and i said that was so fucked up for me because what i

needed you to say is like hey your mom is really really angry right now how are you feeling how are you taking that in i'm going to go speak to her about this and that's not an appropriate way to use anger and let's all have a family meeting and talk about anger and what are productive ways to be angry that aren't destructive and you know that's what I needed parenting you know parenting so you did you feel like you know even though you say your father's a good guy which he sounds like a great guy do you think inadvertently there's obviously there was resentment by sure why don't you fucking help me why don't you do something I look my parents won't listen to this I told my father not to listen to my show yeah I just said listen you know you don't listen you don't need to listen to

it I'm very honest and very open yeah and the reality is I don't want to you know embarrass him And I don't think like he's, I really believe lately he turned over a new leaf. I really feel like, you know, he, he, he suffered. He had a daughter who was born with a chromosonal defect in his last marriage. And she's almost died a hundred times. She will, the oldest, she has a thing called trisomy 13, I believe, where the, I even got her name tattooed on my arm for him, for him to say, hey, look, I'm here. I love you.

Just, just something. But like, he's been through a lot. And his daughter still lives in a, you know, in a children's hospital. She can't survive without it. And she, the oldest living survivor with someone with this disease is 20 or 19. So, and she can't talk.

She can't walk. She can't, you know, and it's, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. And he, and she's 14 years old.

Yeah. And so I know he's been through a lot. But, um, I always make, let's fuck him up. Let's fuck him up, but I think,

you know, the thing is like it's, it's just because you suffered like I'm, I'm, I feel so sorry for that. But that doesn't, that should make me go, oh, you know what everything you did everything that happened it's fine it's all i'm good and i do forgive i just have to work that shit out because well here's the thing you it because you brought

this up before like intellectually i forgive my parents in my heart i love my parents yep that doesn't mean that i have completely processed all of the fears resentments and trauma and issues uh because i think that those things are in your body and they need to get processed and they need to get worked out. Yeah. So I love my dad. I call him every week. We have really nice talks. He's an artist. He's a sensitive and a kind man. And at the same time, in some ways, he was the world's best father. He was always there for me. He came to my games. He would come to my plays. He, you know, he was loving. He was solid. He paid the rent. And in some ways, he was the worst dad. And he was checked out. And he didn't really hug me and he was not emotionally available and we never really completely

like bonded but as I understand his trauma of his childhood I totally get where he was coming from yeah you know so yeah and everything you said makes again wow you're just ringing bells here today dude just like alarms are going on I'm so glad we're talking about this and not like what was it like playing Dwight oh you really haven't even gotten to that yeah that's coming next right Oh, yeah, that's coming. No, this is just, to me, this is more interesting. This is, this is like Rain Wilson's extremely successful and he's had a great career and he's happily married and he has pigs and dogs and all these things.

But you know what? He's gone through some shit too, just like you. He's not like perfect and, you know, he didn't, and I think that's like sort of breaking those walls down where people who are listening and dealing with anything can kind of go, oh, wow. And it could help them in any kind of way. And that's what's most important. I mean, that to me provides, it gives me purpose.

Yeah, that's a great service. You know, and look, the things you were saying is like, I remember my dad coached my hockey team. And I remember my dad, you know, uh, came to games. And he, there were, there were those things. But there were also those other things that, you know, no one's perfect. But, you know, I never got the I love you. I'm proud of you. You're smart.

It was always a converse. It was always, you know, it's like, how could you not understand this? And I don't think he even knew. But isn't this, I know it's kind of a cliche, but isn't it like, that's why you became successful in a weird way. It is. Like if maybe, absolutely.

If your dad had said, Michael, I'm so proud of you, that you'd be a junior high Spanish teacher, you know? In Dick's Hills, Hills Long Island. You know what I mean?

Nothing wrong with Spanish teachers from Dick's Hills, Long Island, but that might be your life as opposed to you really pushed yourself and have driven yourself to, you know, be an actor and produce and write and do comedy and...

Absolutely. And I give, you know, do give credit to like I wanted to get out I wanted to prove myself I always wanted to prove myself I don't mind that and again I know in my mind this is like I'm successful I did all these things but I still have this tormenting these feelings that I just need to that's why that's why I'm going look I I I'm thankful I'm grateful every day I'm like dude you got a nice house you got great friends you have people care about you have beautiful dogs you got rain came over today I'm grateful for you being

here. Mia's here. Mia is awesome. She just came out as a trans woman, right, Mia? Mm-hmm. It's, you know, and she felt like she can confide in me and we, we, she, we hugged yesterday and that's great. This is recent. Yeah, just a couple weeks ago. Yeah, this is very recent. And I just felt like, you know, like, I am grateful for the things in my life. I am just trying to, uh, be a better me and feel better. I just want to, I just want to like acknowledge these things happened and able to, I think what it mostly is, is managing stress. I am so hard of myself. And I think that worked, like, as a child, it worked as a, as in college, you can deal with

the fatigue and you can deal with all these things because you're young. But again, and you know who said this to me? This is, Dolph Lundgren was here. It's getting weird. That's the weirdest Hollywood transition. You know who gave me these life-changing words of wisdom? Dolf Lundren. If he dies, he dies.

But you know what? He said to me, says, you know, when you're younger, you can deal with it. And then when you get older, that same shit that you've been doing, it doesn't fly. You can't handle stress like that. You've got to change their ways. Old habits must be broken. Must be broken. But they seriously, he was really bright.

He's a chemical engine. He was a chemical engineer. Yeah. So it's amazing how, look, you get little morsels from each person you talk to. Yeah. And I just, I understand that it's like, you know what? Let's break the habits. Let's break the things.

Let's get more structure in your life. Let's think positively. Yeah. Let's forget about all this stuff. Let's, if you fail, you fail. If you, it's okay to fail. I can't be perfect. Were you ever, are you still extremely?

hard on yourself even when you're doing the office yeah did you like going i have to step it up or hit show i have to be funny i have to be this were you hard after the show yeah you know i've i've gotten so much better in the last four or five years like i've really made big strides um in a lot of ways i used to be really career obsessed uh and you know what that's like in in in this world of just constant comparing myself to others and like why is he in that movie and i'm not and and i was when I was on the office like it was all about like how do I leverage Dwight to get more movie roles and to get greater stardom and and so it was really just hard on myself and really kind of had OCD about about that you know filming that in my head and going over it over it again

and now I've really I really let that go how how well a lot of it's been this therapy work you know and you know just work with my wife she's been really supportive about it and rel you know as I've kind of loved myself more I think going more into spirituality has allowed me to love myself more so that I'm not I am not my job I am not my success my self-esteem is not it's certainly linked to success and in my work but my I am not my work I am not how successful my work is going so I don't need that anymore but it used to be that way It used to be that way. And it kind of made me an asshole, you know?

You were an asshole. I wouldn't say, I don't think if you talked to the office cast, they would be like, oh, rain was an asshole. I think people, we all get along and good. But I could be an asshole. Yeah. I could be pretty narcissistic and self-centered. And yeah, I had some rough years in there.

I mean, were you aware of it? You were like, did you go home and say, God, I'm an asshole? Like, I, I, I treat. Or was that not apparent? It wasn't apparent to me. It was apparent to my wife. She was like, you're an asshole. right she's like would she say that yeah sure yeah absolutely but she she really helped keep me grounded too

you don't seem like someone and i think i've gone through phases where you know i you know i might have been difficult at one point in my life for a little while or something or you know people thought i had an ego which i think we all do but was there any moments on set were there any moments where you just no i i wasn't that any christian bail moments i wasn't that kind of an asshole i wasn't having like tantrums on set and being really difficult and i think it would be hard press to find people who say, oh, I worked with Rayne Wilson, and he was a dick. Because I also, because I'm such a people pleaser. So I always want people to like me, you know.

How do we get rid of that? That's all I, you know, that's a problem. You put that guy in the chair, who's the people pleaser? Have that conversation with your inner people pleaser. What does he need? You know, how do you not get victimized by that voice in your head? Yeah. You know, anytime you go to the ego and the self and you become obsessed with ego and self,

like you're just not that pleasant to be around. And there was definitely several years in there, you know, some rough patches in our marriage and stuff like that where I was not a fun guy to be married to because I was only thinking about myself. But you stuck with it. And she's stuck with you more importantly. We stuck with it.

We've worked hard. We've done therapy. We've been through a lot. It's amazing. I'd love to get to that place where my work isn't me at all. But I don't think it'll ever be at all. I just think it won't have such a hold. on you. Do you know what I mean? Like I always like if I get cast in some movie or something like I get a boost in self-esteem and there's something natural about that. You feel good when you're working and you're desired and people want to collaborate with you and you there's nothing wrong with that. But that needs to just be at a right sized level, Michael. Right. Like I'm going to go to work. I'm going to do my job the best that I can. I'm going to have fun on set, be pleasant. And then when I come home, I'm going to be rain. It's time for me time. It's not work time anymore. Separating that's probably not easy.

yeah but i i've gotten better so that's it and that's been it's been it's been really nice so there's hope you've made you've had a midlife crisis at all like at some point did you have that like maybe maybe maybe that's what i'm having maybe maybe i don't know i don't know but something happened in the last two years where i'm just um different but my eyes are opening and i'm starting to reevaluate old habits and waves and things and going i can't maintain this for 30 more years i need to make some changes i don't like me a lot of times i don't even though i'm i really feel like i'm a good person and people go what are you talking about i'm chair i am charitable i am you know i do think of others but i just there's there's there's a lot of things that i just go

you you have got to stop worrying about that you've got to stop obsessing you cannot always be on and great and please everyone all the time yeah you just can't you just i cannot maintain it This I was, it wasn't like I go, I'm going to do this. This was like my body going, go to the East Coast, go to this place. Go to this special place. You have to go. You have no choice. You're going.

Here you are, we're by, where, what my God, your hands are, your fingers are typing. Oh my God. This is, uh, what's at, uh, kayak.com. Now you're, you've got plane tickets. I got plane tickets and I'm going. And I'm my friends. What's your podcast going to be like after you go to this place? You're going to be like, so zen.

I don't know. Who knows what I'll be like. But, you know. Now, I think, you know, what's the hardest thing is, I even said I sent an email to close friends saying, hey, I'm going to be fine, I'm great, I'm not a drug addict, I'm not an alcoholic as far as I know. I'm going to this place to clear my head. I'm going to this place to be a better me, to be a better friend, to be a better, and I,

not that I'm a bad friend, I think I'm a great friend, but just to be a better all around. What's weird is some people were so shocked. My father, I actually emailed, I just told him, I just was brief about it. goes wow this is a surprise um good luck that's it and we haven't talked about it since and my friend uh want to make a buddy's harland surprise your dad didn't go like oh you couldn't afford the meadows no no i think he's so such a i you know it's weird is he's so like old school strong and this and i don't need therapy and i don't need this that's why when you say

your dad got into therapy and your mom got in the three i could be the only person in the world that that because that's how i feel rain there's no fucking way that those two would go into real therapy there's no way my father would be open and vulnerable and loving and crying and fuck off that would never happen the fact that you can do that with your parents and i hear it all the time is oh my dad went with me this my dad and i did lSD together my dad that never that will never happen i can i can't i think like a lot of what you're talking about michael i i truly believe that some of the answers to what you might be looking for are spiritual and i'm not trying to get all new agey and i'm not trying to get i'm not trying to convert you to any religion but just like

medit do you do meditation i was and then i like sort of stopped yeah because i i found meditation to be profoundly helpful in so many ways. Guided or just yourself, your own thoughts. Either, either. You know, anything, TM, whatever works for you, there's great apps and guided meditations. You can just be still. You can walk in nature and meditate,

whatever it is that to slow the mind, to realize that we're not our minds, that we're not our thoughts, we're not our judgments, that isn't the reality of who we are, that if you read spiritual writings, it always guides you, no matter what, you're Christian or Jewish or whatever, Buddhist, Bahai, whatever, that we are souls, you know, living in our bodies for a brief period of time

and our souls are growing and developing. This shifts our perspective. I'm like, oh, I'm a soul, you know, I'm a, you know, as Perthéthé Des Chardin, it's a tough name to get. He says, I'm not a human being having a spiritual experience. I am a spiritual being having a human experience. So I love that. Like, I'm a, I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. Anything I can read, I read Buddhist writings. I subscribe to this guy, Jeff Cobre, Jeff Cobre meditation. He does these daily emails. He's great, uh, teacher. I won't say every day, but five days a week, at least, sometimes twice a day. So like, give me like a sort of an idea of like what you'll do on these five days or certain days. Do you like, you wake up, immediately meditate before you do

anything? No, I'm not that disciplined. It depends. A lot of times I drive my kid to school. So if I drive Walter to school and I kiss my wife and we have some coffee and we check in, maybe we'll even walk the dog, then I'll go to my office and I will sit down in my orange chair and I have some prayer beads and I do some meditation and I'll set a timer for 15 minutes and I'll, I'll do some prayer and meditation and just be really, really still. Sometimes I'll do some journaling work. And then I'm like a new man after that. But I always say like, I need that to get to normal because I'm like spun out like this. Yeah, that's how I am. But meditation, exercise also helps a lot. But meditation and prayer and this kind of spiritual work, reading, spiritual writings brings me to a

kind of a level of normalcy of, oh, now I can kind of function. Then I get to just be like a regular person. So I kind of need it. I could see how happy you get when you, just by talking about this, you just had this, I don't know, whether it's spiritual or whatever, you just, there was a glow to you talking about it. I do this and I become, and you just had this smile on your face. Like you're almost lost and like, yeah, this is, this is what helps.

But I think there's tools there. You know, I think there's two, we're living in an age right now or spirituality is, well, first of all, because a lot of it is spirituality. What does that mean? Does that mean ghosts? You know, does that mean a yoga class? Does that mean crystals? Does that mean going to church? Is that mean? We're in such a bifurcated society of like born-again's on one side of the aisle and like secular city people on the other and neither trust each other. And, you know, what does that mean? You know, red state, blue state, you know, what is spirituality mean? But just looking through the world's religions and belief systems, there are tools that help make your life richer, deeper, more

meaningful and allow you a greater focus and creativity and allow more kind of love and purpose understanding in your life. So there's like a toolkit. It's literally like, you know, a pliers and a ranch and this and that. And these are some of those tools. This has been tremendous for me. I hope for you. What was it like playing Dwight? I'll tell you. No, no. I mean, people know you've done these a million times you've how many times can you talk about Dwight I mean look you won three Emmys didn't you I got nominated you asshole

oh yeah you I got nominated Hey I've never been nominated for an Emmy I think I won I think I won a Saturn award A Uranus Award Okay but I was hey it was great I posed with Steven Spielberg at the time Hey both held her award up like hey If this is good enough for Steven Spielberg

It's good enough for you there you go I mean look uh Now I'm kidding about the Dwight thing What were you going to ask you were going to ask something profound No I mean And it definitely wasn't going to be profound. But, like, having, like, the spiritual toolkit. Look, you became an actor, something your father was like, eh, I don't want you to really

kind of, you're doing that. Then you figured out why when you were late 19. Your mom told you she had an affair with the theater guy. So then you became an actor. And then you had huge success. Late in my career. How old were you when you had the big success? I was almost 40 by the time the office was on.

Yeah, because you had done, like, things like one life to live. Yeah. You had done like. Charmed. C-S-I? So you weren't rich at all. No, not. You had no money.

Not at all. A few, I would say a few months. I thought you're going to say a few dollars. A few dollars. Maybe a year before the office, my wife and I were paying the rent using little checks that came in our credit card statement where you could write a check and it would go on to your credit card. I've done that, yeah.

Yeah. So I used to pay my credit card bill with my credit card. I had to pay 100 and I would take 100 and I'd send them a check. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember that. Those are the days. I remember the pitiful look of my landlord, like, he was Austrian.

His name was Boris. He's like, do you really want to do this rain? He would look at the check from like Citibank credit card and it would be like $1,400 rent. He's like, really is a bad idea. He cared about you. Yeah. He liked you. Do you ever go say hi to him?

He ended up being an asshole. He did. Yeah. Boris? Yeah. Are you sure you want to pay rent with this? Yeah. This is your pay, you're not, this isn't healthy.

No, because then he basically evicted us with no notice because him and his girlfriend broke up and the girlfriend wanted to move into the house. And he was like, you've got to, you've got to be out in six weeks. It's like, what? And then we found out from the city, oh, if he's evicting you in order to put a co-owner into the place, they owe you a fee. So I went to Boris and I was like, you have to pay me $2,000 or $3,000 or whatever because you and your girlfriend, Linda, both own the properties. and so because that's then you have to pay me a relocation fee and he was furious and he had meetings with us like trying to get out of it and I was like dude it's just the law it's just the law so he paid you he had to it was the law so 40 years old that's amazing because yeah it was 30 i think 38 when

the office was on maybe 37 when i was shooting and they probably paid you as little as they could the first seasons because they're like he's not anybody i i pay i got paid a little bit more than John and Jenna because eventually we all made the same part well and I had had I had done some pilots and I had been on six feet under right so as the intern that yes yes and Arthur and then that that raised my status a little bit so my agents were able to give me a little bit more but I didn't make a ton of money those first season was it extraordinary though being on that show especially in the first season where you just was it so much excitement so much or was there pressure did you did you love going to set we loved it I mean it's such a boring story but we

fucking loved it. It was great. Did you improvise all the time? Here's the deal with improvisation. People ask us a lot. Listen, the, if the script is great, you don't need to improvise. You know, if, if Greg Daniels has written an amazing script, you can try and improvise. It's not going to be any funnier than what's on the page. You know what I mean? So we improvise sometimes. Yeah. And sometimes to help scenes and the bridge scenes and just for fun. And they really let us do that. Who broke the most? Who laughed the most who could not handle it who did you and who did you find honestly the funniest who made you fucking go oh my god i can't uh i would say brian bomb gardner who played kevin broke the most he would laugh at at a you know you could just kind of like twitch your nostril at him and he

would just start to break did you hate it because it ruined a good take yeah but then he and he would also like blame it like i would like twitch my nostril at him and he would start to laugh and he'd go rain rain he did it he made me laugh um And you're like, no, I didn't. But John and I would always make each other laugh. Like, there was something about when we would improvise, like, if one would start to go, the other would go. And we would just be useless. We would just be lost.

But, you know, we were shooting. I remember this director came on set. And we were like hugging each other and high-fiving, joking around and watching YouTube videos and just having a great time. And this director was like, oh, my God. He goes, you have no idea. This is not how sets are. He goes, you were so spoiled. Nothing is better.

than this you'll never have a job better than this and it's true because it's it's an incredible camaraderie and love that was that was there and also how many years nine you know and it's and i hate this because even even when i did a show for seven years you're going from something that's so big something that's so like universal and people are like well what's next what what is he doing How could you possibly be the biggest TV show on earth, the office? There's no way to go up. It's almost impossible for you to go any higher than the office. Maybe you will.

You're hilarious. You're talented. But it's like if you have those expectations, like, oh, it's not as good as the office. It's not as good as small bill. It's not as good. And the office, then you're just, I mean, that's, you need help. It's tough. Yeah.

It's really tough because right after the office, I did this show, Backstrom on Fox. I got canceled after 13 episodes. And, you know, all of us like, oh, that's it. Rain Wilson sunk, you know, he tried his other TV show. Were you heartbroken by that? In some ways, I was, in some ways I was kind of relieved. It was so hard. It was like one hour.

Lead of a one hour show. I mean, you're working 14, 15 hours a day and just working Friday nights until, you know, 5 a.m. And just it was backbreaking, exhausting work. Is that when. the real therapy the work you do it with yourself with the meditation and stuff you have to do that like if you don't do that are you fucked yeah you're really screwed especially under that kind of stress yeah were you were your stress levels really high yeah it was it was rough but i was meditating

then and you know doing what i could to to stay grounded yeah well they ever like god rain looks really tired today oh yeah i look tired every day it was so beat it's like do you do you do you worry about those things do you worry about how you're gonna look on film do you worry about how you know because a lot of actors like you know i think it's everybody it's like you want to look the best you can you want them to light you a certain way i guess i've always been so weird looking that i've always like i've never really bothered me like i'm like oh i'm shlubby i'm overweight or i look haggard or whatever i don't have that much i don't have that much vanity around that that's probably a relief in a way that you just don't feel that way

because there's a lot of people that are like oh it's this good is a single better on me where you don't think about it you just do the work yeah i've worked with actors that are that that's that's a that does it bother you it bothers me a little bit but i also just feel bad for them like oh wow they're so connected to how they look and how they're perceived externally because the reality is this if the show and all the crew and they're filming you and the director and the producers are right behind there it's their job to make you look good if you're worrying about it you they should be worrying about it hey let's get a little let's put a keynote it's called the keynote over all right yeah yeah let's do this they can fix all that in post anyway oh yeah so can

but the other thing is well a little of it the the other thing is weird is like on social media like i have a beard now and it's pretty gray and it's like i'm 53 i look pretty fucking great for 53 online everyone's like oh it's old dwight's got old dwight's old old white's old white is old what the fuck's wrong with people guys i'm 53 i was shooting the office in 2004 you know 15 years ago is when we started it. It's like, I'm older than than that. Look what babies they were.

They do that. I've read that where it's like, oh, my God. Look at Lex Luthor now. I'm like, I was 26 when I started the show. That was 20 years ago. And I look pretty goddamn good. You do. You look great.

You really look great. And fuck the grays. I'm getting grays in my beard. I get grays. What are you going to do? Look, this is enough. This is more than enough for me. I feel like I get just talked to you up forever because we don't really

know each other. We met through James gone. at a party and you play tennis Yeah And I have, you know I once my I joined the Mahalan tennis club recently

Okay So we should play tennis We absolutely should do that I would love that Can you play you have a titanium spine You know what's funny is I haven't lost any mobility And in about two months

Or a month and a half I could start playing tennis After I go away I come back I can pretty much play tennis Yes And we got a text chain going now So we're good

Yeah No this was a real pleasure too Like I'm a big fan of your podcast I've always liked you're acting a great deal met you through james gone and i was like oh that's a just an interesting cool offbeat guy and i'm so glad that we're getting to know each other you didn't realize i was as troubled did you i didn't know that you were as deeply troubled no i did not know that i was hoping you would have said neither did america neither did america i was hoping you'd say you're not that

trouble but you didn't well i did not know will you please do your podcast from rehab hey i'm with my psychiatrist meo will you go with him yeah i don't know if I really want to fly out to the East Coast. Did you imagine? That actually would be really interesting. Day one, this is Michael. Hey, I'm so I'm here. They would be like, you're such a narcissist.

You need to put the microphone away. Of course. That's the opposite of what you want in there. Thanks for allowing me to be inside of you. Thanks for being deep inside of me. Deep. Hi, I'm Joe Sal C. Hi, host of the Stacking Benjamin's podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax advantage retirement account.

The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this addition that we're adding. $50,000. I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. And we're done. Thanks for playing everybody. We're out of here. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.