Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - The Flash’s JOHN WESLEY SHIPP: Dark Periods and Gratitude

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

The original fastest man alive John Wesley Shipp (Dawson’s Creek, The Flash) graces us this week with a terrific conversation on his successes and contrary dark periods throughout his various roles from Dawson’s Creek to The Flash to daytime soaps like Guiding Light. John reflects on what could have been with his time on The Flash in 1990 and opens up on the cathartic experience acting alongside Grant Gustin on the new CW iteration. We also talk about on set Dawson's Creek drame, how John eventually received more “dad” roles and why he’s not bothered by it, and his hilarious experience with super suits. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So your child can continue to discover all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. How is everyone today? Ryan, how are you? I am A-O-K. How are you?

I'm doing all right, man. I've been exercising more and I've noticed my anxiety has gone down a little bit. Funny how that happens, isn't it? Isn't it? We just talk and preach and bullshit. And then once you actually do it, you see, oh, well, I notice a little difference. Even if it's a small difference, it's a freaking difference, man. Oh, yeah, you see these things at the bottom of my legs.

If I move those around a lot, then the things you need to put the feet. Feet, feet, if you sort of move those up and down. Yep. And around and outside. Your heartbeat starts to go up. It's crazy. It's amazing. Guys, I hope you're taking care of yourselves.

I hope you're, thanks for listening, whether you're in your car or you're at home or whatever. Thanks for tuning in. John Wesley's ship coming up. Great guest. You know him from The Flash. You know him from Dawson's Creek. He talks about his relationship with Mark Hamel. He talks about, I mean, just anxiety, life.

he was very open and I love when the guests are open and you guys always write me and say God they were so open and I love how you know you're able to open guests up and they just either want to or not and he seemed to open up quite a bit

and it was effective it helped me if you're liking the podcast I urge you to spread the word help the podcast out follow us on Instagram Twitter and Facebook Instagram and Facebook

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That's right. Is that right? Patreon. It's like a family. You'll see it. There's like a lot of perks and tears and things that you could do and to help the podcast in other ways. Patreon.com slash inside of you.

And if you want any merch, band merch is at sunspin.com. You could also zoom me. I'm on Cameo. And also if you want any merch from the inside of you store like Lex Luthor stuff, small box, small of a lunchboxes, inside of you store, inside of you online store. You can go there. Anything else, Ryan, going on in your life? Just busy?

Well, I got back from a... Oh, you were a bachelor party. I was a bachelor party in San Diego. Did you get drunk? Yeah. Was it fun? It was a lot of fun. And you didn't pass out or anything this time?

I didn't pass out, no. The group was, you know, it was like an array of this guy's friends from like high school all the way to like professional. So it was like, it ran the gamut of dude. Right. So it was fun. I'm glad you had a good time. That's good.

Because last time you had a seizure. I had a seizure on a beach and I ruined a bachelor party. This time I was not the one who ruined the bachelor party. That was somebody else. Well, I'm glad you're healthy and glad the... But actually, it wasn't ruined. It was... We all had a good time.

Right. Except you. I had a miserable time. Yeah. You felt like you ruined everything. That's right. But I'm glad you had a good time this weekend. I did have a good time.

It's good to get away, isn't it? It was so weird to be around people and have conversations. And, but yeah, we were all. We were all vaxed, and we all kept it within the group. Like, we had a house, and we did a brewery tour on a bus. Jeez. That sounds like fun. We went on a boat, too.

That was fun. Really? Yeah. I need to take dramamine when I get on a boat, just so I don't get little motion sickness. This was all right. All right. Just cruising around the San Diego Bay for three hours. Sounds delightful.

It was. San Diego is beautiful. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm glad you had fun, man. Hey, everybody, thanks for coming to Lexington Comic Con. I had a blast. Tom Welling and I had a blast.

who did smallville nights it was hilarious and fun if you ever get a chance to do smallville nights i'm doing one in west virginia on september 24th i'll be there um rocking the mountaineer comic on and get your tickets going to be a lot of people there i'm doing a one-man show for small ville nights it's going to be a lot of fun lot of freaking laughs let's get into this uh john wesley ship uh this is a really fun interview i hope you enjoy it i know i did let's get inside of john wesley ship It's my point of view. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience.

Hey, good looking. How are you? I'm okay. I guess. You guess. Where are you? I'm in New York. You're in New York.

You live in New York. yeah i live in new york and uh hold on i've got like messages coming in and it's blocking my audio uh did you say where yeah oh long island city that's like uh we see if you can see the reflection of the picture behind me that so we got a view of this east side skyline of manhattan wow from the queensborough bridge all the way down to i call it fuck you tower it's they call it freedom tower it looks like a big right down they replaced the world trade towers with

perfect did you uh did you just get tired of l.A was L.A. something you were just like I had enough of it. I started my career in New York. I was at Indiana University actually on an opera theater scholarship. Opera? Yeah, baby. I started taking piano at four. My first piano teacher taught me the alphabet so she could teach me how to play the piano. And then I was an opera theater major and I switched my major to theater and dropped out, moved to New York in the late 70s before you were born. And then, uh, I was born in 72, thank you. Oh, you were? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not that young.

Well, to me, you are. Well, you look good. So who cares? You know, I've gone through various phases. you know of looking like someone actually wrote me on social media once and they said you didn't age well sad what and i wrote back and i said depending on when you caught me you're absolutely right because you know i've had my scary periods and one was when i did teen wolf but that teen wolf dad was such a friggin' psycho And I was in a very dark period, but I looked terrible, but it worked. Right. But luckily, I clawed your way back.

Claude my way back. Hey, so, you know, we have a segment. We start out with guests now. We're just trying this. It's kind of a mental health check, and it's just called, how you doing? And it's just sort of like, at this moment in time, with all the work you're doing and everything, and just life in general, just kind of a check-in. How you doing?

You know, I have to say, and without sugar-coating it, that, you know, You know, I'm, on one hand, kind of amazed that I'm still alive. Really? And, well, I've gone through, and nobody knows. Nobody, I mean, it amazes me that nobody did, but I've gone through my dark periods, you know, in the, mostly in the 2000s right after I got off Dawson's Creek. But, you know, I mean, a year of quarantine,

a year of having one play canceled in Greenwich, another play that we were workshopping to bring to Broadway with producers about Henry Fond and Jimmy Stewart. I had a hallmark movie, an episode of a TV show, and eight personal appearances wiped off the board. I'm not whining because I have friends who do almost strictly theater,

and they were wiped out. I mean, they're still hurting, really bad you know so I was able to go back to work February 2021 and do an episode take my Jay Garrick to Stargirl wow and then I just got back from six weeks in Vancouver doing the last two episodes of season seven season seven for flash you asked me how I'm doing and in typical fashion I'm telling you what I'm doing. How I'm doing is I'm pretty damn grateful. That's the way to be.

That's what you got to be. I'm learning gratitude. The more I, no matter what, at the end of the day, I just before I close my eyes, and it helps me sleep that I just start to think about

what I'm grateful for. It's just weird how that works. Instead of getting in these dark dreams or these thoughts, I just go, you know, hey, stop, stop, what are you grateful for? And I start naming things. I put my grandma's face in my head,

and then I go to bed, And it's just, I sleep better. Yeah, I have a friend, a good friend who's an actor. And you know how we are. I'm this way. I would bet you are. It's that, you know, who's on a series and he'll look at it. And he'll hate everything he did.

And he'll be telling his wife, God, I hate this. I didn't do this. I don't like it. And then she'll stop him. He just told me this. He'll, she'll stop him and say, okay now tell me five things that you like about yourself and that that's she won't let him go to sleep on that negativity tearing tearing himself down did do you get like that are you someone

who tears yourself down or maybe that's something that was in your past or you are you really hard on yourself i find that the longer i wait between the time i did something and when I watch it, if I, when I watch it, and I do, you know, I can't stop, but I'm almost invariably, I've learned to manage it, but I remember when I did NYPD Blue, and it was such a big departure from anything I had ever done for a season of NYPD Blue, the two episodes is the drug addicted cop. And, uh, I know what I intended. Now, it ended up being incredibly received and incredibly reviewed, but when I saw it, I was in L.A. and I got so upset, I jubbed. I jubbed. in the car and I drove to it was either Idlewild or Lake Arrowhead and just stayed in a motel. I was so disappointed and freaked

out and it wasn't what I intended. And I still do that. Like I'll watch, whether it's recently a Hallmark movie or an episode of the Flash, I'll watch it. And I'll hate the way I look. I didn't accomplish. If I wait, I forget what

I intended. Right. And I can appreciate what I did. Yeah, that's got to be tough. That's got to be really tough to. Well, you know. Yeah, I'm, I'm really hard on myself. I'm like, oh, my gosh, look at, oh, you're like, and I started to, I mean, look, you don't ever let that go.

I don't care who you are. People say, oh, come on, just you got to let it go. You got to, you know, it's, it's, it's, my friends would give me shit about that. But I, I try not to watch things right away, like you said, give it some time. And then I actually can go back now I hadn't seen an episode of Smallville in years. And I saw an old episode that was like on as a who I go

Oh my you know why the hell not And I go I used to think you look so terrible bald And you look like shit And then hit it and now I'm like Dude you actually look her To be 10 years younger To be 10 years younger

Watch it later You have to go back And watch your scenes with Glover and go that is damn good TV you have to you have to say that is smoking

I can notice nuances moments when I when I and that goes from my whole acting career moments where you go oh you really let go you were in that moment you weren't thinking about looking cool you weren't thinking about

saying it a certain way you were just being and that's a rarity but when I see that I kind of I give a small applause to myself inside But that's rare. I don't do that a lot.

Could you imagine if I'm constantly, if I'm just sitting there watching myself, oh yeah. You're terrific. You know, it was very funny, but we did the pilot for Flash when they asked me to come back as Harry, Henry Allen,

you know, Barry's father wrongly convicted of killing his mother in front of a 10-year-old Barry, you know, which was not my origin story in 1990, Boy Brothers for CBS at all. So that was just a role ever.

want to do whether I had never been Barry Allen or not but having been Barry Allen it brought those things together you know it's like you talk about being in the moment being close to who you really are because it was a unique situation I was playing his father I had done this role he knew I had played the role I knew what he was taking on maybe what some of his hopes and dreams and insecurities might be. And so there were times in those beautifully written scenes between Henry and Barry in the prison in Iron Heights that, you know, I didn't know if Henry was talking to Barry

or if Old Flash was talking to New Flash or if John was talking to Grant. And when those things all come together, it's really, then those scenes I can watch. can go they will always be among my favorite. That's great. That's a great feeling too. Inside of you is brought to you by Quince. I love quince, Ryan. I've told you this before. I got this awesome $60 cashmere sweater. I wear it religiously. You can get all sorts of amazing, amazing clothing for such reasonable prices. Look, cooler temps are rolling in. And as always,

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Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum in the survey so they know that I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show. Do you look back and think, God, you know, if we had the producers or the just the knowledge we have now and if we had different. Producers or designers or whatever it is for the flash of 1990 when you were there This could have been something big and and also how did you deal with that disappointment of it only lasted a year, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we had it all. We were the most expensive show Warner Brothers had ever done for television at that point It was a high-tech suit designed by Oscar winner, you know, box short and built. and our writing was great.

Danny Wilson and Paul DeMeo were excellent. I mean, we had Howard Chacon as a story editor. We had, I don't even want to start naming because we had so many great and talented people. And we were nominated for an Emmy for art direction. When we did a big lot premiere on the back lot for the international press, our reviews were through the roof. I mean, Washington Post, New York Times, I mean, the big Louisville Courier Journal, you know.

And they talked about the acting and they talked about the art direction and they talked about at the time state-of-the-art effects for television. And so we were a creative and industry hit. Now, it was the hardest thing I have ever done. I mean, we would start at 7 a.m. Monday morning and work until 10 or 11 at night. come in 7-11 at Tuesday and work till 2 in the afternoon on Wednesday, coming at 2. So by Wednesday or Thursday, we were shooting all night. By Saturday, we were blacking in the back lot at Warner Brothers to shoot day for night.

And then we were back in at 7 a.m. Monday morning. And you're in everything. You're in every day. I mean, you're the flash. I mean, our transportation department, whenever I thought I had it bad, I'd look at the fact that they were having 25, 26-hour days. I mean, our overtime was through the roof. And we were already budgeted.

So by the time we did that through the third week in August, through the second week in May, with four days off for Christmas, and that was it. Wow. Because we had to do mostly live action practical effects. We didn't have the CGI capability then that we have now. And so it was hours and hours and hours.

And Danny and Paul were uncompromising. They wanted to do the show that they wanted to see. And so I can look at it today and I can appreciate, I can appreciate the fact that the technology has come. It's 30 years later. One would hope. Yeah. And I think what I was saying,

I think what I meant to say was, why didn't the stars align for that project? And now that hearing you say all this, you know, you had all these great components of it. So why didn't succeed has to be even more disappointed. now you're like you know it just was it was revered it was all these things so what was it well it's a combination of things i think number one it was 30 years ago putting on a superhero costume in 1990 was very different from putting on a superhero costume in 2014 in the new cw

show we were like i was hesitant to even audition for it because i had been on broadly in new york I had my two daytime Emmys. I had, you know, I had fashioned myself a series, and I thought only superhero reference I had was being spoofed at that point. And I just didn't think that that was where my talent lay. And then April Webster, I'm sure you know, multiple Emmy Award winning casting director, said, John, just read the script.

That's all I ask. And then I read it, and there were all these human values. there was the unbless son of a cop family in which real cops work the streets. But I had gone into the crime lab so that my mom didn't have to worry that all of her men might not come home that night. My older brother was the street cop who my dad loved and my dad was always putting me down. So my Barry was the unbless son, you know, in the family who gets these superpowers. And his first reaction is, I don't want to know from this. I have no desire to be a hero.

I have no pretensions to be a hero. I have settled for my lot in life. And that's the deal until his brother's killed. And then it's like, okay, it's on. And then he has all this ability that he knows his dad. It would make his dad so proud, but he can't tell him. So there was all, I'm starting to feel it, you know, by about that point. Right.

And then they promised me, we will not put you in a pair of red tights. I came to kind of regret that later because that suit was so hot. It was, I'd be in it for 20 minutes and you could ring me out. But I don't want to, you know, the last thing people want to hear is those of us who have been fortunate enough to play these iconic characters to sit around and whine about our suits. Right, right, right. But there were challenges, you know. But I think it was, it was a couple things.

CBS had the oldest demographic, right? so all of our in-house advertising did not reach our target audience number two they were too confident given our reviews from the preview that we did during the summer so they're pouring money into this they're pouring money into this and they threw us into their most difficult time slot

opposite cosby and the simpsons at their peak in 1990 and then even so we held a decent third place and cbSaid if you could hold those numbers in fact the reviews were the writers in the paper was flash, lifts CBS to strong ratings week even though we were third in our time slide

but then we were off for baseball World Series for two weeks and then we were back on and then we were off for the Gulf War then they moved us to the half hour an hour show on the half hour has never worked in the history of television then they moved our night

it was kind of good news bad news in May when I had flown back to New York, last scene with Mark Hamill, five in the morning, we're trying to get the last shot as the sun was coming up, they yelled cut, I ripped the wings off and throw them in the air

and swear I'll never get into another superhero suit as long as I live, you know. So it's kind of, the bad news is the flash isn't going a second season. The good news is the flash isn't going a second season. It was just. I would

be standing under the shower at six. six o'clock not knowing whether it was a.m. or p.m. I mean, it took us nine days. You were going crazy. You're going crazy. Going crazy. Isn't that amazing how fast the body and the mind can just deteriorate? I mean, you probably didn't have any time to exercise, really. You're trying to, you know, and you're just physically, mentally exhausted. And that's where you realize, I can't do this anymore. So it's a blessing in disguise. It like, you got good reviews. You did this show. And it just, it was killing you in a way. And you're like sort of relieved. yeah there was definitely an element of relief although i realized going into second season i had already after the first several episodes set some ground rules as far as the first day of the shooting the series i think i was in the suit for 12 hours and then at two in the morning they pulled me out of the suit for me to do the barry allen scenes well i'm fried by that point you know and then at times they would go very flash very flash so they would glue it on they take it off with acetone they put on makeup to take the makeup off the put the glue back on you look like shit yeah

broke out in a rash oh so we had to lay down some ground rules do the berry scenes first then do the flash scenes if you have to yeah do the flash scenes and then the bearer but we don't go flashberry flashberry flashberry um wow and i would have been able to make some more requests going into a second season just to preserve myself i had an awesome Oh, I always mentioned, Dane Farwell. He was my stunt double, and he was as much the flash as I was. I was Barry Allen, but Dane was a rock, you know. Yeah, so I went back to New York, and I did dancing at Lunasel on Broadway.

It won the Tony's best play. I went in with the American cast, and Howard Stringer at corporate CBS was at the Tony Awards. And he came up and introduced himself to me in a podcast. apologized for how badly they had mis-handled the show. Wow. I mean, when you look back, I mean, you've done, I mean, you studied opera. I still can't believe. If I said, La Dan, I'm Obile, what would you say?

I would say, well, first of all, I'd think of Pavarotti. It's a tenor aria. I can't remember exactly what operates from, but it's a tenor oria, and Pavarotti made it famous. Can you jump into it? both feel. Can you jump into that voice whenever you want? Is it something you can just jump into? Not so much now. I mean, there are certain things that happen physiologically. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. It's a muscle. What used to be a spin is now a wide wobble. Right. I mean, we all hear that. It happens in every voice, you know. And so, you know, whereas I used to sing constantly and I would do recitals.

We do studio recitals, and I keep it for myself. But now I don't, it's becoming so hard to even just practice for my own satisfaction because it's physiologically just gotten so difficult. Yeah. I always admire people who have done soap operas because, and you've won awards, because to me, it's something I could not do. To me, it seems like the hardest thing in the world. You have to memorize 20, 30 pages a day.

and I don't I can it terrifies me it terrifies me the thought of doing that and I know James Franco got on the soap and he wanted to do it and he really you know put everything into it but was it did you find did you like doing soaps or were you uh it was an exhausting thing to do it wasn't exhausting of course I was 24 you know it's like when I was on guiding light 25 and uh no it wasn't exhausting and I listened to the people who had been on a long time who had a method for dealing with it. You read the script, you take all of your scenes out, you put them in chronological order, then you look at the week's work and you budget out, okay, I have to do this scene, you know, these, oh, no, no, no, because you do an episode a day. And then you do four or five episodes that

week and the night before, you study your week's work, if you're lucky enough can have the scripts that far in advance. And then the night before, you work on the script for the next day. What was tough was for four months while I was doing dancing at Luna's eight times a week on Broadway, I was playing this crazy character on all my children at the same time who was peeking out at 30, 40 pages. Wait a minute. As you're doing Broadway, you're also doing the soap at the same time. I would go to ABC at 7 in the morning and I'd shoot all day, except on matinee days. I'd shoot until there'd be a car to take me to do the matinee. They'd take me back to ABC.

I'd shoot in the afternoon. And they'd take me back to do the evening performance. It was one of, and then I do the performance. I'd go home and I tweak all my lines. And I'd say, well, how about this? It was one of the most energetic, energizing times of my life. And I ended up hemorrhaging the vocal cord, you know, at the end of that. But it was very exciting.

That character, interestingly enough, Carter Jones and all my children served as the basis of a thesis at a major university on my character was very violent, very misogynistic and abusive toward women, and how at the same time there was a fascination with that character and a repulsion, you know, and the intersection of those two things. I couldn't believe what we were doing on daytime TV then. We didn't never be able. They'd never be able to do it. Now, even when I went back to play Eddie Ford in 2010 on One Life to Live, it was great fun. But, I mean, I couldn't even believe what we were saying, you know, pansy-ass boys, you're a bitch of a mother. You're all this on daytime TV, you know. Yeah.

That's crazy. Do you ever get, I mean, do you ever get stressed in terms of you ever get anxiety or with work or, always trying to be great or proving yourself? Do you think that sort of never ends? Is that something you've dealt with in your career? Or have you never really dealt with a lot of anxiety? No, it's sometimes I wonder why. You always, because it's, you move from anxiety,

I will talk about myself, move from anxiety to anxiety. There's a period when you don't have a part. The anxiety is, am I going to get an audition? Then you get an audition. The anxiety, am I going to do well? And then the anxiety of, did I get the part? You have five minutes of an, I got the part. And then anxiety.

Right. Now I have to do it. Right. Because you're always, you know, it's one reason I moved back to New York. You're always as good as your next, next project. Well, what are you doing next? You know, it's like, how about if I do this right now? How about if I talk to Michael?

Be present. Be present, damn it. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, yeah. It's, but there's, but you know, I remember in those wonderful letters from Martha Graham to Agnes DeMille, where one of them says to the other,

there's never any satisfaction whatsoever at any time. There's only a sort of divine, queer dissatisfaction. That's so sad. Yeah, in a sense that there's a life force moving through us that maybe propels us to walk, I'm paraphrasing now horribly, at a pace maybe faster than the others as an artist, you know, but yeah.

Do you enjoy, honestly, being on the set of the flash and playing these characters and working with Grant and Tom and all these other people? Do you have an actual good time? Is it a time in your life that you're like, I'm really enjoying this? I'm enjoying going to work. I like the character I'm playing.

I like what I'm doing. I like being on the show. Is that how you feel? Yeah. Yeah, it is mostly, particularly, but then I was mostly just working with Grant. And I knew with him playing the son who was the only one to believe

that his father was innocent and me being in prison, it would carve out a very special relationship for us in the middle of an action adventure right at the amusement park. You know, the lights go down, the music hushes, we walk into the phone booth,

we pick up the phones. We can't do our business. we're sitting there all we can do is memorize the words look at each other make a connection and tell the truth you know and those were wonderful and i enjoyed it while i was doing it i appreciated it pretty soon after we did it grant was very funny because i saw him at the upfronts in new york and he had seen the pilot and i had and he was like man have you seen the pilot did you see our scene you have a big scene with the hand on the glass and the pay you have the father-son And I said, no, as it is it. How is it? He said, man, I was sitting there going, you can't cry. You can't cry on your own scene. It's so awkward to cry at your own scene. So Grant wanted to cry after watching. Did you, when you watched it? Did you, did you cry when you watched it?

I don't remember, but I remember being moved. They did something really interesting to get me on the edge of my emotions. David Nutter, director, Andrew Christ, or Jeff John's, Greg Burlante. We went in to do that scene in the prison, and David came up to me and said, we've written some lines that we didn't want you to see or hear until, for granted, until this moment. And it's my shot. So don't come in on your cue.

Don't come in until he says the words, whatever it was. I love you, Dad. And I'm sitting there. Well, see, now I'm really listening. You know, Meisner would have been so pleased. I was riveted. You know, what's he going to say? And he gets to the part where he says,

you remember when you told me to change my name because you didn't want anyone to associate me with you? Well, I'm glad I didn't change my name. I am proud of you and I am proud to be your son. I lost it so much so that it was unusable. but we said do it again right away don't cut tape just do it again and i was able to manage the emotion and it was still there people said how did you work up the emotion for those father-son scenes i said the problem wasn't working up the emotion the problem was not letting

the emotion run away with you so that you're up there having a wonderful masturbatory experience and the audience is going god i wish you'd leave room for me True. True. Because I think, you know, somebody told me once, if you're doing a scene where you have to, you know, cry, you should think of not crying because most people don't want to cry and they end up crying. So you're really trying not to cry. And that is what really affects people, I think. I think that sort of reaction. What were the line? Yeah. Go ahead. It's like playing drunk. Yeah. You know, people who are drunk are trying not to look drunk. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Mostly. Most often, unless you're really a lot. you know. Hey, what were the lines? What were the lines they gave you? Do you remember? Which ones? The one that I had not heard? Yes. The ones that I said. Oh, those. That was those were the ones he was telling me. Well, see, that hit me on a number of levels. Because our show went one season. And I knew that they might want to cut ties with the past in order to have a present and a future show that hopefully would be as big a commercial success.

as creative success, which is what I hoped for Grant. And when he lit into those words, you remember when you wanted me to change my name because you didn't want anyone to associate me with you. Well, I am glad that I didn't change my name. I'm proud of you and I'm proud to be your son. Then is Grant talking to John? Is New Flash talking to Old Flash?

Right. Or is Barry talking to his dad? It all collided. Right. That's pretty amazing. Ever wonder how dark the world can really get? Well, we dive into the twisted, the terrifying, and the true stories behind some of the world's most chilling crimes. Hi, I'm Ben.

And I'm Nicole. Together we host Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast that unpacks real-life horrors, one case at a time. With deep research, dark storytelling, and the occasional drink to take the edge off. here to explore the wicked and reveal the grim. We are Wicked and Grim. Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. Do you, when you look back, did you think that Dawson's Creek was going to be a hit right away from you? I did.

You did? I did. Why is that? Because I didn't do the pilot presentation. I was off in Moab, Utah for five weeks doing the lost treasurer of Joe Santos with David Caradine, Lee Majors, Kathy Lee Cross, and Shell Greene. wow it's a movie that you will never see I don't know I'm right now they decided to go a different way with the dad

after the pilot presentation and after it was picked up don't feel bad for that actor because the next thing I know I'm sitting in a movie without Pacino and he's so I got Dawson speaking he got the movie without Pacino okay so well the TV show lasts longer than

a movie a movie is kind of there and it's gone it's true but they had me watch it the pilot presentation and i knew immediately and we forget this because it became such a pop cultural phenomenon we forget how unusual it was at the beginning to have a show in which the kids were talking like that we're dealing emotionally and internally with issues and trying to express them in a vocabulary that very few kids had. I remember a big star said to Kevin Williamson one time, kids don't talk like that. And without hesitation, he shot back.

Maybe not that they'd like to. Wow. So it was Wilmington, North Carolina. The creek was an actual character in the show, the waters of that, you know, southeastern coastal waterway town. And the issues that they were. dealing with. I mean, people forget it was the critically acclaimed Dawson's Creek the first couple of seasons. Sure. Oh, yeah. And I knew immediately, I thought, wow, this is special. And then I

talked to Kevin Williamson, and he said, I promise I won't turn you into, I'm going to say the name of the show, because that sounds disparaging, a certain kind of TV parent. He said, you will have real subsidiary, but independent storylines that intersect with and inform what the kids are going through. You won't just be mom and dad in the kitchen stand and have a good

day at school. And he was as good as his word, you know, because there were there were some really intense episodes. Yeah, I even watched it. I remember watching. I couldn't help but watch it. I had to watch

that show. And I mean, I ended up working with Josh in a movie called Urban Legend, but did you, did you get along with everybody? I mean, obviously you worked with James a little more, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I worked with James the most. It was interesting to see these young actors, and I think we were, we benefited from being in North Carolina out of the glare of L.A., you know, because these young actors went from relative unknowns to, I mean, superstar and their faces on the covers of all these magazines that fast you know and uh to watch the way they handled it i mean it was i mean i remember james when he signed his first autograph had to go tell mary margaret hums about it she played

his mom right and when his movie varsity blues came out his parents weren't in town so we asked mary margaret and i to go with him to see it wow so that is pretty damn cool so he asked his TV parents to go with him to the premiere for Varsity Blues That's pretty sweet That's pretty damn sweet Now I bet his parents were upset They're like, we would have come

Jesus It wasn't the premiere But it was a showing In North Carolina You know Yeah It was very, very sweet But it was also interesting to watch

You work with Josh You know Josh has a very different way of working from James who at that time was very cerebral you know very emotionally logical I mean I was watching this young man

of course he had worked with God Edward Alby as a playwright on a play so I mean he's he knew the work and and he would have notes after a script read through and some people were offended by that

but Kevin Williamson and I found this with writers and producers who are really secure he was open to the notes he said yeah but 98% of the time he's right wow you know

so but it was really interesting and in the lives of those young people to see how what they were playing on screen was mirroring what was happening off camera you know what do you mean and what do you mean i don't say anymore well they were some of them were seeing each other right yeah and they break up and they get together in different you know was that hard on set was it was there like some stuff that went on i have a feeling that by fourth fifth sixth season a combination of things happened number one

they were getting all these other offers. They wanted to make the leap to what was next. And whatever character, conflicts, personalities, different way of working, accommodations that they had to make to work with each other, began to really grind on, to irritate them. So I was very happy to leave in I think it was the fourth or fifth episode

of the fifth season, you know, where my character died eating an ice cream cone, which was kind of hilarious because I was known as the ice cream man on set on devoured ice cream anytime there was there. Were you upset when you died with you, did Kevin call you and said, hey, this is going to be it? Kevin was gone by that point. Kevin was gone.

He left after season two. and Greg Burlandi came in for a while and then but I knew after season four that there was going to be a shift because the kids were going to go to college and they would leave the creek and sure enough at the end of season four they let all the adults contracts lapse

and they asked us for six episodes instead of 19 And I thought, this has been such a rich and wonderful experience. You know, I don't, I don't want to go back and be holding the new baby Lily and waving appearance day. You know, I just didn't want it to turn into that. And so I set my price really high, expecting that they wouldn't meet it. And everybody went to start season five, and I was fine. I was in L.A.

I had four great seasons under my belt. I felt ready to move forward. and I think during the filming of the first or second episode the W.B shut them down because they didn't have any story and Paul Stupin called me in L.A. producer and said, can I have coffee with you? And so I said, sure. I figured something was up and he said that here's the deal.

And so we were wondering if you would come back. We know you've been a little bit. unhappy the last season or two with the diminishing role of the parents were taken. But if we if we promise you two great scripts and the money you're asking, will you come back? Okay, I'm like, yeah, yeah, and kill the character. It's like, but they were as good as their word. Again, those are two of my favorite, favorite episodes. And it was such a respectful and affectionate farewell to a character.

I couldn't imagine. It really validated, it really made me feel that the previous four years had been about something special, you know. And so I felt that it ended exactly the right way. For everybody, it gave James, propelled him to therapy. They made it so there was an incident I won't go into it.

He was responsible for what I went out to do when I was killed in the car accident. You know, Mary Margaret had all of the parental duties instead of splitting them right and she played those scenes so wonderfully the funeral and then i had a six feet under episode where i came back and i did visited visitations with all the kids and sort of wrapped up my relationships right in the long goodbye it's called so yeah no it felt exactly right do you think it's uh do you remember the the first time you were told that you're going to play or you're going to audition for a parent or someone like because you go from this

transition of like i still feel young i'm young i'm young and then they're like oh you're going to be the parent of this in this audition oh i'm going in for the dad now do you remember that first dad role no only reason i do is because somebody else my first dad was in 1989 playing uh uh uh barney bucks in never-ending story to the father of sebastian so i started playing dad nine years into my professional career at the age of 30, 30, you know, 389. I was born in 55, so I was 30, what, four, 34, 35.

And I didn't think anything okay, until people were like, oh, particularly Dawson's, oh, are you going to be okay, playing a dad? I'm like, why wouldn't I be? You know, is it a good part? Yeah. You know.

And I've played superheroes and psychopaths ever since. Yeah. Do you keep in touch with anybody from Dawson's? Mary Margaret. That's about it. And I've done appearances with Mary Margaret Humes. And I did a pilot in Chicago with Katie Holmes. Yeah.

What was that? 2018, where she was an FBI agent, but it didn't go. We thought it was going to go. So she didn't invite. you to the Tom Cruise wedding when they got married. You weren't married to that? You and Tom could have jumped around on the couch together. It would have been just a real treat.

No, no. By the way, you went to Indiana University and you went to high school in Louisville. I grew up in Indiana and went to college at Western Kentucky University. Oh, did you really? Yeah. We swat. You went to smarter schools, though. Oh, you know, I love Western Kentucky.

Kentucky, but I got in. Western Kentucky. West, the hilltoppers, the hilltoppers of Western Kentucky. Oh, yeah. All right. So this is called shit talking with John Wesley's ship, or I could change it to ship talking for this

particular state. Right. So these are questions. These are questions from my fellow patrons who love you, and they get to ask questions. So here we go. Step A. Is Flash your personal favorite superhero, or is there someone else you like more?

well i you know i have to hats off tim burton's batman and the flash were being developed at warner brothers at the same time around a new uh aesthetic for presenting these superheroes dark brooding we went darker with the flash than the flash really is in fact carmen infantino who drew the flash groused at one point He said, ah, they're making the flash so dark. Flash not supposed to be that dark. Everything's all shot at night and all the streets are wet, you know. But we felt we had to do that because we had to ground it in some grit to have people take it seriously. So I would say if I had another favorite, it would be Batman, you know.

Yeah. Betsy D. says, are you excited to be reprising the role of Jay Garrick? And I know I'm thrilled to see you again on Stargirl. Oh yeah, I mean, Jay Garrick is the role, you know, when they asked me to come back and get back in a new version of the 1990s suit for El Swirls and then Crisis in 2018, I was like, are you out of your minds? I'm like, you know that was 28 years ago, right? But I think we pulled it off. But Jay is the character that I feel is the appropriate part for me to play now. Because in the comics, he's really in his 90s, but he was exposed to age reversing capital.

chemicals, which lands him in his mid-late 50s. Right. So that's the character that I enjoy exploring. Second, Henry Allen was still my favorite. Ryan, I mean, you're a big, Ryan's my engineer. He's here. Have you seen most episodes of The Flash? No, no.

You've seen a lot of them, though? I have seen a lot, yes. And do you want to ask John a question? Come on, you've got to have something for him. He's like, no. I don't. How is a No he'll get it

Watch this How is Grant Guston as a human being Good question He was on this podcast I could tell you But he's But you work with him closely So how is that?

Yeah I have to say It was one of the As I've already said It was one of the most rewarding experiences Because people always ask me what Grant is like, but Grant works from his truth.

So what you see, there's a fun, there's a spark, and there's an exquisite vulnerability. And a real dedication to trying, whether it's a superhero context, or whether it's one of his independent films, whatever it is, to treat it like we're trying to get to the truth of,

of something here and let's work together and he does get irritated if someone is not on that wavelength is someone's not taking this seriously or someone's not on I mean you know because I ran into

this when I went back to daytime in 2010 for four months I mean people walking the halls going but so proper job and I'm like that will kill that attitude will kill anything you have to offer. Any creative impulse you might have, that attitude

will kill it. People say, what's your favorite role you've ever done? I said, the one I'm doing right now, whatever it is, is my favorite. And whether it's daytime TV, when the audience had shrunk considerably by 2010, we were having 22 million viewers a week in the early 80s. By 2010, it was like maybe one million viewers an episode. But whether it was that or the Tony Award winning play on Broadway or primetime or the drug addicted cop on NYPD Blue are running around at my age and a superhero suit, whatever it is. It's that moment.

That's my favorite. Wow. That's a great answer. Lee Ann P. Love the episodes where Mark Camel guest starred back on The Flash. Any fun memories you have about him that you would like to share? Because he's a character. Mark was

really helpful to me because I've already told you I was very reticent to go into a superhero suit so I was like I don't want to have any lines in the suit

I don't want to eat B-roll in the suit I don't want to have the cow back and have like you know eating a hostess twinking and drinking a Diet Coke

I don't want to turn into a mascot right so I was pretty stiff well here comes Mark as the trickster you know balls to the wall oh yeah no whole

I mean, just total 100% commitment. And I'm like, well, if Mark Hamill can commit to that degree, then I need to get over my bad self, you know. And I think by the last episode of the show, the trial of the trickster, when he's mind controlling the flash, I was able, you know, I'm catching bullets from the police and throwing bullets back at the police, which we could never do today. and knocking over parking meters

and being his sidekick I was actually able to relax and have some fun but in the news show he comes back as the trickster in the news show and we go to Earth 3 and he's shooting bullets at a bank robbery

and I'm catching them in my helmet and I show him the bullets in my helmet and I say you're out of bullets and he opens his coat and he's wired with a bomb and he says yeah but I'm not out of of bonds and our faces are this close and they yell cut and he says we're grownups that's brilliant that's great Raj says is there a moment in your career you can point to as the time where you felt you had achieved success in the industry now this is a tough question because you know that moment

that's good enough that you felt like I have made it and whatever happens afterwards or the downs the ups, the downs. But, you know, I think about that sometimes. But how would you answer that? It's a process of, it rolls out, right? Because I started in daytime. I remember when I won the first Emmy for good guy going to a psychopath, Douglas Cummings, opposite Julianne Moore, was my leading lady.

I remember Jane Elliott. Do you know Jane? Jane Elliott, actress, she had said to me, because she had an Emmy on General Hospital. She said, well, you have your Emmy now. You have nothing left to prove. I was like, boy, I can't wrap my head around that. I had constantly things to prove. And then I got a primetime show that I was at the center of. And that was a lot to prove, you know. And then there was a completely 180-degree opposite character. NYPD Blue, a lot to prove. And then theater, every step of the way.

And then once you've established yourself, I was going to say made it, but you never make it. Then you have to prove if you're still interesting and relevant. In other words, am I going to show up on the set of the Flash and the Flash 90 costume and everything's going to go, when's lunch? You know? Now, as it turned out, everyone was.

was so invested in the comics that Grant was like, this is the coolest thing we've ever done, you know, and the executive producers were, I mean, they really enjoyed it. But no, you never, I never, you never feel. What about you? I think, you know, when I hear that question, it's weird where my mind goes. I think, hey, you had a lot of success.

He had fun. You made some money. You made people happy. If I died right now, I'd be like, hey, I had success. That was, I mean, what level of success? There's millions of levels. I mean, I can say, I'm not going to be successful until I win an Oscar, or I'm not going to be successful because then you're going to be chasing even past that Oscar.

It's just not, it's not tangible. You have to find something inside of you that really, you know, you have to be proud of yourself. You have to, you know, I'm learning to be proud of myself, learning to love yourself. And I think that that's how you kind of figure it out. And you go, what is success? I've had success. Look at what you've done instead of trying to chase

something that you think is going to give you happiness. So it's a tough question for me. That's where my mind goes. I think that's healthy. It's something that I, as I've gotten older, have had to practice.

You know, I've had to practice remembering that over the course of a 40-year career I've gotten to do things that have been really incredible. And I've worked with wonderful people and I've contributed honestly and sincerely

to the best of my ability at the time in whatever project. I love the halfway through David Copperfield by Charles Dickens. He does a reassessment of his life. And one of his great achievements, he says, is never to have put one hand onto something onto which I could throw my entire self.

and that sort of has been ever since I read that that's been my mantra enthusiasm isn't that incredible yeah say that again never to put one hand to something

on something onto which I could throw my entire self isn't that something that and this ties into what I said about soaps never to affect a depreciation of any work that I was given to do

whatever it was have been the hallmarks at my life because I'm just saying something like that but those two statements that's awesome that is awesome

big StevieW last question what's the one thing you have yet to accomplish but it's high on the bucket list for you

is there anything that you're like you know I'd like to do that you know I think this goes back to managing expectations

you know I mean things seem to appear when I'm ready to do them. You know what I mean? Whether it's the powder burns, the wonderful project David Gregory did, where we won an award, the Sovus Award for a radio drama,

where I'm all Rizzled Sheriff and Ed Asner was on it and stuff. Or there's a wonderful play that David has written about the lifelong, friendship of Henry Fonda and Jimmy Stewart, despite vast political differences, which I didn't realize or know about the extent of, and romantic rivalries. And it's called Hank and Jim build a plane because every Sunday they get together and they build model airplanes, whether they were speaking, whether they were fighting over politics, whether Jimmy was talking potentially to the House on American activities, or Jane was going to Hanoi. Whatever it was,

And it becomes a metaphor for how do we cobble together and stay in relationship with people, with whom we have vast ideological differences? So if ever there was a valuable message for today, and that was the play that we workshopped in New Orleans. We have a Jack Batman and Bruce at Sunny Spot. shepherding that project. Well, they're multiple Tony award-winning producers, probably with producers. And that was interrupted for a year because of COVID. But we hope to get that back on track this coming winter.

So other than wanting to continue to play a variety of interesting people, I don't necessarily care where it is. You know, one of the most rewarding recent experiences I've had was doing 12 angry men at, at the Judson Theater Playhouse in Pinehurst, North Carolina. You know? Working with the best juror number three

I will ever see. And the two of us going up against each other, you know? And doing it for, there was like, I think, a Morehouse scholarship thing, five high schools where they bought them to play, and they studied it

according to the Constitution, and what of the Bill of Rights issue was being brought up all through 12 Angry Men. interesting now that I'm playing Henry Fonda in Hank and Jim but they were right there with us they didn't miss a beat

and at the end they were you know that is as rewarding to me as any high profile project I've ever done yeah isn't that something so as long as there are interesting parts and I don't drive myself too crazy but it's you said it

you said it and it's a practice I have to practice reminding myself that I have contributed in meaningful ways in a variety of on a variety of platforms. And am I an aid listener? Absolutely not. Oh, yeah. I'm believe me, I'm working on this. I think you without a doubt have.

And I think it's also you have to practice that for me, I'm trying to. trying to practice, just enjoy this. You said it in the very beginning of the podcast. You said, I'm here with you. I'm just enjoying this moment with you. If I could learn how to do that more where I'm just with my dog or I'm just with my friends or now it's work or now I'm, if I could just enjoy instead of going through the motions or going through these moments trying to get to the next moment, I'm missing everything. So that's what I'm working on. believe me it's a work in fucking progress brother absolutely so but look this has been a real

tree i'm glad you you don't do a lot of podcasts huh no no not many i have done some but you know this is great it's like i tell people at conventions my q and as i'm like if you've been to a couple of my q and as before i apologize there are only so many answers before i start making shit that's amazing oh i love it well this was great i really got to to we kind of went over a lot of things and uh i feel like it's been great it's been great i feel like i got to know you in this hour and i really i really appreciate this and i can't wait to to give you a hug at a con because i am vaxed now are you vaxed fantastic me too we're gonna hug it out and if you're doing a play if you're doing something if i'm near you just got to let me

know when you're doing it if i'm close i want to come see you perform i'd love to see you as henry fonda excellent it'd be awesome i'll let you know all right we'll give grant my love and everybody on The Flash and all my best to you. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks, Michael. All right, John. Bye. Thanks for listening to the podcast today. I really enjoyed his interview. I thought he was very open. I was surprised. He was nice. It was really cool to hear about his journey. His adventure with Mark Hamill and just his journey and how he gets in his head. Again, I like when guests open up. Thank you. Make sure you follow us if you like the

show at inside of you podcast on the facebook and instagram at inside you pot on the twitter if you want to join the lovely patreon to help the podcast even more i'd be delighted i'll send you a message right after it's patreon.com slash inside of you and um a lot of great guests coming up a lot of great guests coming up uh i've been working hard to get you good guests and uh i do the best i can fuck ryan i just do the best i can i get guests that you know i can get or i have to work at but i still get and you know people seem to be pretty happy they always have their requests and you know they email over at hello at inside you podcast.com and they leave messages which i check here and there not that often but i get your messages and sometimes i can write back sometimes i don't but don't

think i haven't read your stuff and i appreciate you listening and taking your time to write me and sometimes they're a really long email so if i just say hey thanks so much for this i read it i just didn't write another novel back to you. So I thank you. Yes, why don't we get into the top tier patrons? These are the people who really help the podcast. I hope the podcast a great deal. They really do. And I don't know if I could do this without them. Thank you to Cumos. Thank you for Ryan for being my madman over here. Thanks for Jason. Jason's taken over editing for you because you've been busy as hell. Jason has taken over to the editing and he's doing a great job. And I thank And I thank him for doing that.

Jason, we love you, man. Thank you so much for doing this and keep up the great work. Everybody give Jason a shout out. And Bryce, Bryce, who really does a lot of social media and tries to get the podcast out there. It's a great team and I'm happy to be a part of it. Let's do the top patrons. Here we go. Nancy.

D. Leah. Shit. S. Trisha. F. Sarah. V.

Little. Lisa. You. Kiko. Jill. E. Brian. A mama Lauren G. Nico. P. Jerry. W. Robert. B. I. It's L. I think it's an L. Oh, no, it's an I. Is it an I? Is it just a long, skinny one? Yeah. I think that's an I. It is. Yeah. It is an I. You're right. Jason. W. Apothean, Kristen K. Amelia O. Allison L. Raj. Joshua. D. Emily. S. C.J. P. Samantha. Samantha.

M. Jennifer N. Stacey L. Gen S. Jamal F. Janelle B. Cary B. Tab of the 272. Not to be confused with Tab of the 273. Kimberly E. Mike E. Eldon Supremont, 99 more. Ramira. Santiago M. Sarah F. Chad. W. Lian P. Janine. R. Yes. Maya P. Maddie S. Shannon D. Belinda. N. Kevin V. James. Vanderbeek. Chris H. Dave H. Sheila G. Brad D. Ray. H, Tabitha T, Lilliana, A, Michelle. Okay. Yes, Michael S, Talia, M. It's harder when I go randomly like this. It is.

Betsy D. Claire M, Laura L, Chat, L. Rochelle. That rhyme. Chat L. Rochelle, Rachel. Nathan E. Marion, Meg Kay, Janelle P. Trav. L. Wow.

Dan N. Lorraine G. Carrie. B. H. Veronica K. Big Stevie. W. Kendall T. Angel M. Rannon. C. Yes.

Corey K. Super Sam. Coleman G, Deb Nexon, Michelle A, Lizel, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Lizai, Jeremy C, Andy T, Cody R, Sebastian K, Gavinator, N, H, David C, Elliott, M, John B, Brandi, D, Yvonne, Yvore, Yvore. Yvore? Camille S. Bono. Jovi. Bono. O'Bano. The Chief, Joey M, Willie F, Christina E, Adelaide, N. I thank you guys all from the bottom of my hearts. And if I ever send you a box for the top tier patrons and you don't get it, it gets sent back to me and then I have to figure out the right address because something

happened. And you know what sucks is usually I have to pay again to ship this box and if it's overseas, but sometimes the address is not right or it gets like messed around for two months and then it gets sent back. First world problems, man. First world problems. Hey, I thank you for listening to the podcast. I thank you for allowing me to get inside of you guys each and every day. you guys mean a lot to me and I like doing this thing so hopefully we'll keep it going and I appreciate all the feedback and all the love that you guys share constantly with me and Ryan yeah love you buddy love you too from Michael Rosenbaum from Ryan Tears here in the Hollywood Hills Hollywood Hills of California what's up guys thanks so much for being here thanks for allowing to be inside of each and every one of you and until next week let's let's be healthy let's rock it out and bring some friends along to listen to the podcast, will you? All right. Thanks. Hi, I'm Joe Sal C. Hi, host of the Stackin' Benjamins podcast. Today, we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000. What would you do? Put it into a tax-advantaged

retirement account. The mortgage. That's what we do. Make a down payment on a home. Something nice. Buying a vehicle. A separate bucket for this edition that we're adding. $50,000, I'll buy a new podcast. You'll buy new friends. Thanks for playing, everybody. We're out of here. Stacky Benjamin's, follow and listen on your favorite platform.