Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum - WEDNESDAY Creators AL GOUGH & MILES MILLAR: Convincing Tim Burton, Jenna Ortega’s Dance Scene & Revisiting Smallville

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

The boys are back… Al Gough and Miles Millar (Wednesday, Smallville) join us to talk about everything that went on behind the scenes with creating Netflix’s biggest new series Wednesday! The guys talk about the nerves of getting Tim Burton involved in the project, the difficulties of filming during the pandy in Romania, and how just about every studio said ‘no’ to (what would become) the second most popular TV series of all time. We also talk about the evolution of storytelling with streaming services, how they’ve mastered the art of teenage sci-fi, and of course… our time together on Smallville. Thank you to our sponsors: ❤️ Betterhelp: https://betterhelp.com/inside 🪒 Harry's: https://www.harrys.com/inside 🟠 Discover: https://discvr.co/3Cnb1V8 🧼 Dove Men Plus Care 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou __________________________________________________ 💖 Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insideofyou 👕 Inside Of You Merch: https://store.insideofyoupodcast.com/ __________________________________________________ Watch or listen to more episodes! 📺 https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/show __________________________________________________ Follow us online! 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🤣 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@insideofyou_podcast 📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/insideofyoupodcast/ 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/insideofyoupod 🌐 Website: https://www.insideofyoupodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com. And ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Wow, special guests today, Ryan. I mean, there's always special guests. I know. But special guests, plural.

I know. The creators of Smallville. The creators of Wednesday. The creators of the new beetle juice that's going to come out. They're here. Al Goff, Miles Miller. It's always a joy to have them on. They come on the Talkville podcast for some insight.

They don't want to. Yes, Al's always is readily available for me. Thank you for listening to the podcast and supporting it without my patrons, patreon.com slash inside of you. We cannot do the show. So if you want to support the podcast and keep it going and you're digging it, please become a patron and help support. Also, the inside of you online store has cool stuff, small of a lunchboxes and Lex Luthor Funkopops and Flash Funkopops and a Lex Luthor statue and a bunch of inside of you stuff. Tons of Cool stuff, new tumblers. So I go to Inside of You online store for that.

I will be in Wales, yeah, doing a con in Wales in early May, and then I'll be in Virginia Beach, Tidewater. It's called the Tidewater Con or something, Virginia Beach, right after that. So anyway, come see me. The handles, to listen or to follow on the podcast, and please write a review. It truly helps the show and the algorithms and all that shit. It brings us up. And it's great if you write a review and follow us in the handles.

What are they, Ryan? At Inside of You Pod on Twitter, at Inside of You Podcast on Instagram and Facebook. Yes, that is it. Uh, I've been dealing with a puppy, Ryan, as you know, it's, um, I thought of giving him back. Uh, he is shitting his crate three times. He only shits when I leave, but then he can not shit for 12 hours while I'm home. Mm-hmm. Well, I'm sleeping. So I, um, do I just accept that I can sleep at least a little bit and just accept that he's going to shit all over his crate? I had to probably fix that. Do you know how many times I bathed him in the last three days because he had shit all over him? I won't get into it. But Charlie, start behaving yourself.

I hope you're enjoying the podcast, and let's just get inside of Al Goff and Miles Miller. It's my point of you. You're listening to Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum. Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. We were talking before when you guys first. came in you guys were i just was joking around like who's more high maintenance and it was very much like twin brothers in a way how they would respond to the answer you're like well i guess i am no you know what you are well i don't know if i guess i am i mean it was like who who's more

high maintenance and high maintenance obviously not extreme but who would be the more high maintenance i i think it's definitely me i completely agree no question there's no question it is it is like for instance like miles is actually very good about miles but i like i like I call it roughing it now in my, in my advanced years. I know what I mean. Like, you know, I like things a certain way. Like, even when we go on location, because we'll, you know, we have places, our apartments are generally near each other. Right.

And, and, and, but Miles would be much happier. Like when we were in Romania, we stayed in this very nice kind of soulless, but very nice. It was like, it was attached to like, you know, it had a gym attached to it. And the Wi-Fi was great. And it was very clean. and stuff. Like, I was fine there. And I think Miles was like pulling his heroin would have rather lived in downtown Bucharest. It's definitely more an adventure. Al's definitely like a creature habit. I am a creature of habit. I have to say I'm with you. Yeah. On that. So I'm not a great

traveler. I, uh, I tend to, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of a hermit. I don't like to have be on a schedule for vacation. Like we're going to wake up at eight. We're going to go do this. We're going to be out all day. We're going to be, you know, I like. Weirdly, I'm that I'm, then I'm, when we go on vacation, but again, but he doesn't do the schedule. I don't do the schedule. See, what I like about the vacation is... Tell me where we're going. We can be...

Literally, sometimes I'm like, where are we going? I don't even tell me where I'm going. Just what day? Great, well, I'll show up, get on the plane, you know. And are you good with that? Do you not complain when someone else organizes things? Because I hate that. No, but by the way, in my younger...

You know, I've been married 26 years now. And my wife is an excellent, you know, traveler. Arranger. A ranger. And scheduler and knows what we like. So basically, by the way, that is the thing now where it's like, what? I didn't. I've, yeah, well, I will say, though, the one time that we were together, we were shooting the Hannah Montana movie down in, in Nashville, and we got to go to Memphis for

the weekend to be bizarrely the judges in the barbecue festival in Memphis, which is the big deal. We knew nothing about barbecue, but I wanted to go to Graceland and said, oh, let's go to Graceland and he said, okay, sure, and then he blew me off, and I ended up not going to Graceland, just like, I always, I said, so you've never been? No. I don't know, right? How can you be in Memphis? I'm not going to Graceland. I blame him completely to that. How, come on, man. Right?

By the way, I know I wish I went to Graceland. Yeah. So now I just drag him, whatever we do. So when we're in Romania shooting Wednesday, we went to like the, I forced him to go to all the places he should go to. Yeah. And did you like it? Were you grateful for that?

You know what it is? And I know this about myself. I'll bitch and moan, but then when I'm there, I actually enjoy it. And I know that about myself. Like, I'm at like, and sometimes I try to like skip the bitching and moaning phase and get right to like, I'll be fine. It'll be, you know. That's good because I, but I'm, yeah.

I hate more when I, and we'll get into your, this is fun talk, I organize a lot of things. Ryan's not on Mike right now because we have you guys, but Ryan knows I organize softball. I organize things for my friends, dinners, whatever. I'm sort of that guy. And I'm fine with that on two conditions. One, just be appreciative. You don't have to buy me anything. You don't have to pay me back.

Nothing. Be appreciative. And two, don't complain. Right, right. Like, I'm doing all the work. We wouldn't get together if it wasn't for me. Right. Would you say your writers?

If it weren't for me, if it weren't for you? If it weren't for me. Yeah. So that, you know, but I know it's sort of one of your things and you're working on it and you've been working on it your whole life. But you're kind of like, you're the guy who's like, let's go and explore and this. But I probably, I think when it comes to like style and dress, you seem like you're, I have to look.

I have to wear my collared shirt. I look more. Not that you don't want presentable. No, he's laid back, but he's the style guy. He wins. Yes. Yeah. You spend a lot of money on clothes.

I don't actually, but I like to put himself together just so it feels like... He does. Professional. Yes. Right. We had one interview. I remember it was with the L.A. Times during Smallville, and they were describing us. And they said Miles was like very put together.

And he goes, and he's laid back and rumpled. And that's when I was like, yeah, you know, I should work on that a little bit. So, yeah. Do you picture me like that, kind of rumpled? You're not rumpled. No, no, you're stylish. You're stylish. You're stylish.

I think I was a little more stylish. today, but usually I'm sweatpants when I'm interviewing. Yeah, but even that, it's just, it's kind of me. But you have that stalled charisma. Yes. You get away with a little shit that. Yeah, right? We don't have that.

Yeah, so that's, that's, that's, I don't know about that you have. Yeah. Now, let me ask you this. You've known each other. I'm going to guess, I'm going to go with 27 years, almost, yeah, 30 years you've been together. Yes. Now, this was a long time ago when you were on the podcast last, right?

I think we, I don't even, we're in this room. We were in this room. It was pre-COVID. It was pre-co. Yeah, yeah. But I remember us talking about, you know, you sold an orangutang film and for $400,000. And, you know, the movie didn't get made, but it kind of gave you a jumpstart into, you know, gave you inertia, right? To sort of like, you know.

And, but if you look back, do you look at each other and think, that's the miles I knew at USC? That's the Al. It's relatively, it's the same guy. Yeah. Yeah. Do you really feel that way? Yeah. We have, I think obviously people evolve.

Yeah. definitely changed but yeah but it's but it's like we're still and I think that's the thing about you should grow older yeah basically the same person just trapped in somebody else's body right it's just like that's strange like really I'm getting old we don't feel it yeah I think you feel that your experience as you grow older is actually you become more alive right so let me feel that and you get and you get and you do definitely I think get mallower in some ways yeah when we talk about this you know even doing this show versus smallville which was you know 22 years ago. We're like, you know, the 30-something version of us would have been furious,

but the 50-something version of us is like, well, yeah, we'd have been raging eagomaniacs. Yes. 30 years ago. 20 years ago. Smallville. Yeah. It would have been like, it's a different, we're different people having gone through the Smallville experience. Yeah. Of having a hit show. Yeah. Now, this experience is having Wednesday. So it's a very different, that I say, we're very, very different people having had that experience of the ups and downs and the sort of rollercoaster of anyone's career. You still learn from that.

Have the roles reversed in a sense? that I remember on Smallville, it wasn't, I'm not going to use the word feared because you weren't like this megal maniacal, you know, mean to people. You're always very kind and sweet. But what I mean is it felt like, you know, Al was the one that sort of kind of talked to it and he was kind of calm. And you were, but like if anybody's going to lose their shit and say, no, that's not working. It felt like it was Miles who's like, I won't stand for that. And maybe you were that too, but you sort of needed to be the balance. Do you think that those? roles have sort of, you know, are they the same in a sense? Or now have they shifted a little? Is Al a little

tougher? Well, or are you both kind of relaxed a little more now? Well, I think, I think interestingly, the roles we, you know, I mean, the job of showrunner, which was not a term that was even around 22 years ago. But it's actually a lot of jobs. Oh, yeah. It's good to have two people. And the division of those jobs is kind of really what it was. I mean, we sort of figured out. Like, I will handle like studio executives and I can't do with them at all and like and I'll I'll you know but then but then the thing is it's like I'll be on it I I'm not really a set person like you know miles loves being on set he directed directed but I love I love the I love sets I love the camaraderie of the crew I love the crew just generally in terms of that what they do and watching them work and I think that's a really interesting I love being there the weird stuff that crews get to do yeah being in a stay up all night. and seeing the dawn or watching, you know, incredible, you know, lights and effects into the woods at night. I just like just the magic of movies that comes with being on a set, which feels like a very special thing to be in this business to see. I'm going to like weird locations that

no one else could get access to. I think that's the magic of it for me. And seeing then making sure that the scenes are as I imagine them in our heads. So like the guardian of like our vision on set. And I'd rather just be in a room writing. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what's funny is I, I picture, like, look, if you, if you look at both, you know, I would want without, if I didn't know you, I'd be like, I want the English guy talking to, uh, Australian slash English guy talking to the executives because he just sounds, you know, it's like, well, it's smarter. It just sounds like it's smart, you know, but you don't like it. You don't feel comfortable. Well, no, I feel, because I think I've got a lot better. You have. It's just in terms of being, it's all about being

defensive. And I think that's something. Oh, so you worried about being defensive. Yeah. I think It's always about being defensive in terms of, like, taking people's ideas on, which we always, I think the thing that we've done in our career and has done well for us is that we're very openly collaborative. We really welcome everyone's thoughts and ideas from every element. We'll take a good idea from anybody, literally. And it's and this and the project isn't, the episode or movie isn't finished until literally you deliver it. So the whole process from the writer's room, from the set, from the actors, the directors and then editorial. Yeah. It's all ongoing process.

It's constantly evolving. And that's something that we sort of honed on Smallville. And then something that's continued. And I think it's got even better for us in terms of like making sure that ever, we get all the ideas and it's a continual collaboration with every element of the show. Now, you said something about sort of articulating or that vision that you both have and putting it on screen. So being on those sets and seeing the forest lit up and all these things. And like, that's, that's what we want.

That's what we want. I guess knowing each other this many years, you, you assume, like, there's no question, I know Al will like this. I know this is what we both want. Is there ever those moments we're like, what is that? And you're like, oh, I love it. And you're like, they're rarely, right? I can't really.

I can't really. No, exactly. Like, Miles, what are you doing? No, no, it's never had that. No. Isn't that crazy? It's really insane. We've always been incredibly insane.

Yeah. And if we do surprise each other, it's like, wow, that's better than I had mentioned. And all the, all the issues, otherwise. solves in script stage we never get to a point like this is like what were you thinking it's like it's always we've resolved any not in things in conflicts just like differences of point of view in terms of in the writing phase yeah right it's just always the anxiety of a writer is like are they going to fuck it up on set is the director going to fuck it up is the act is going to fuck it up are you sort of waiting for that moment no i think it's always the anxiety of a writer that

that the other element's going to fuck up your vision like that it's not going to be as good as you hoped or as you as you and i think what's amazing is when it actually is bad Yeah. And that's, that's the joy, like, or it's exactly like you want it to be. So certainly on Wednesday was like, wow, this is better than we are mentioned. Or it's exactly like we could, we could have thought and hoped. Yeah. And similar with Nutteron Smallville. Yeah. Smallball pilot was like, oh my God, this is everything we wanted it to be and better. Yeah. And that's what you want. It keeps getting elevated by each different person who comes into it.

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you don't wait download the rocket money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show inside of you with michael rosenbaum rocket money was there um is there ever a moment i know there's a moment there's moments but like even with a great director like tim burton who's this legendary larger than life character that you know there's that the movie star the old school movie star that sort of mysterious that doesn't really exist anymore but Tim Burton, it's still, he still has that mystery to him. Right. You know, and that, that, um, that appeal and that sophistication and, um, he's a legend,

but are there times on set where a big director like Tim Burton or Tim Burton, you're watching something and it's, and you're thinking, yeah, but that's not what I want. Shit. What do I tell Tim Burton this? How do I say Tim? Yeah. This is great, but it's, it's not what we're looking for. It was an interesting, because Tim was actually, he's actually been a fantastic collaborator, and he was incredibly collaborative in the, in the prep part and certainly in the post.

And then when he was shooting, that's where it was, we had to figure out how to do it. I remember the first day on set, and it was his first day shooting and he hadn't shot in a couple years either. So, you know, it's the first day of anything, he's kind of nervous and getting going. And we had some notes and we, and then we realized at the moment, like, this is not, this is not going to work this way. So we went to him the next morning. Again, this is, I think, where maturity comes in. He said, look, Tim, we don't, we would go, you're Tim Burton. We, you know, but we want to be deeply respectful of your process and we don't want to, like.

So how do we do this? So how do we do this? And he was, and we'll say it initially. And he was very, he was very intrigued by the idea of doing TV. Yes. And he was very intrigued the idea of telling his story of our longer form. So he had never really done TV. He had never done TV.

No, he had never done TV. Never. Yeah. I mean, I think he'd done some episode, like back before he was. Tim Burton like in the in the in the in the he always been intrigued by but he had never done a streaming show or the idea of how do you tell a story over eight hours or over eight episodes that was something that he's that really intrigued him um and he liked the when we first met with him over

zoom or it was you know over his face time call yeah it was he he liked that we'd done TV before and he knew he knew small bill and so he was something that he was like looking to us to help navigate that new new world I mean he's obviously doesn't need any help doing anything but but he was deferring to you In a way. It was just, he wanted to collaborate. Right. You know, you're using like good guys to take me on this journey and we can do it

together. And that's exactly how it was. It was just amazingly collaborative experience in every aspect. And then even in post, it was like, you know, this is where we got nervous. Like you're dealing with Tim, you think, oh, shit, what we're going to do? And the way it works in TV is, you know, Michael is you, the director does the cut. And then the showrunners get the cut and that's it. So here we're like, we're not going to cut Tim Burton.

How is that going to work? Right. But because he's always got. final cut in his movies. So it's like, who have, you know, what a. But he knew that you guys get final cut. Well, we, we didn't, it's not really final. But what we said is, if we have some notes, like, we can, we'll try and anything

you don't like, we'll, we'll take out. And we went and did a pass and he watched it. And the great thing about Tim is, he just watches it. If nothing bumps him, he's like, yeah, that's great. And he went and watched and he goes, yeah, that's terrific. And then when he got to his next cuts, he's like, okay, you do your cut. Because then he would get ideas from it, like he would see. And then he also loved the idea.

Like, we had the sequence in episode two, which was the canoe race, the Poe Cup, which, you know, there wasn't really enough time in the schedule to shoot everything. So, but we said we'll put this together and then we'll storyboard the rest and then you get to go shoot more, which I think weirdly it was a little like animation for him where it's like, oh, you can go back and get the things you don't have because of the continuous production of television. And then what we would do is like the dance as well. The dance as well. He saw his own color of the dance. Oh, actually, I want more stuff. He goes, I want this and this. And he's, he's, wow.

Yeah. But what we would do is in the mornings we'd meet with him in his trailer and we'd go through the scenes of the day. And he'd just be like highlight beats like let's, you know, talk through anything. And the other thing too was because it's obviously it's a big mystery. He goes, you, you all have the bigger story in your head. So tell me like this, make sure we get this because it's going to pay off in episode five or something. So he was actually. And he'd cut lines. He didn't like. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really like just very elegant, simple way to start each day. Yeah. Yeah. So we were all on the same page. And then. We wouldn't have to bother him on set. Yeah. Then he would just go and, and, you know, it's funny because the first you were talking earlier, like, you look at things and you're like, is this going to, you know, when it was Tim, but you watch some things. And we just didn't understand how some things were going to cut together. Right. And then when we saw his first cut, we were like, well, it's just the economy shot.

He has the opposite of a TV director who just covers the shit out of a scene. Yeah. Tim shot with one camera, one camera. So, so he'd like, so like, the studio would call us and be like, where's the coverage? We're like, there is no coverage. You have to make him shoot with more than one camera. It's like, we're not making Tim Burton do anything. And you want Tim Burton and this, that Tim Burton style, and this is what it looks like, and this is how you achieve it.

Wow. Yeah. And multi-cant, two cameras or more, that would have just, the look would have been different. Yeah. Because it's a different lighting. Exactly. It's all set up for one shot. Yeah.

And this is how it's going to work. But the economy of his storytelling is unbelievable. What a lot of directors would take multiple shots in, he could do in like one or two. And it's just in terms of the directed covering their, all their ass. basically. Yeah. The second episode begins with a, there's a missing kid, basically. There's a little like dogs, police dogs through the woods, which, you know, I think

we'd schedule like four or five hours for this big thing. And he did it in three shots. Three shots. And it actually, you know, you have no idea you're looking at three shots. Yeah. When you look at the things, it looks like it's multiples. And it's just like, okay. So it's really fast working with a master for the speaker.

It's confidence. It's absolute confidence in what you're doing and storytelling. And complete, complete, like his storytelling is just amazing. You can really see the insecurity with so many directors as we've got to shoot so much stuff that I know I'll get something out of this. Exactly. Whereas I need this. I need this and I need this.

These tell the story. And that's all you need. And that's all you need. And the thing is he's a storyteller, whereas most certainly in television, which fine, is they're covering it. Right. They're covering a scene where he'll, he directs it. Like, here's the shot. Here's how it's staged.

Here's the perform. And then he tells the story. That was definitely a eye opening for us. Yeah. And the way he handles himself in terms of like, you don't think a guy like that would be at all malleable, you know, or sort of, you know, this is the way it's done. This is how it is. And there are a lot of directors like that. He'd be like, no, I don't want these guys on sick. Get him the fuck away from me. I'm not, you know, egos and this and that. And he's all about, hey, how do I make, these guys have a lot of experience in TV. I don't. I'm a movie maker. I'm a filmmaker. I do all these, you know, I have to listen. Because it's smart to listen to people who know what they're what they're doing. And he just, it's like he just respected you and he wanted to get your vision across and in amazing you know yeah no it was it was it was really we didn't know what to expect and it was really an amazing experience for everybody yeah does he ever lose his shit come on he had to snap what the i think everyone i mean also it was a very it was really challenging tough tough shoot yeah we were shooting in

romania which is a incredible country that was the weather he was tough we were shooting over over winter it was nine months and it was really it got cold old and it's COVID so we had the really it sounds we're not complaining but you're a little one step removed also it's it's I mean Mazai you know shot you know New Zealand Canada Ireland but we had we never really shot in the country where English isn't the first language and then so you put that on top of masks and it's definitely and then we had the war in Ukraine yeah more in Ukraine next door and they would never they were never going to invade but there's a certain level of anxiety that the American cost had with that yeah and also you realize how close nuclear power plants are how

many Ukraine has and how close they are to like if one if if if if Chernobyl went you're like it's LA to Portland that's how far away you are so it's it's a little but they're so efficient yeah yeah um wow yeah it's amazing people don't see a lot of times they they see the glamour in it they watch Wednesday and they go wow this is beautiful and great storytelling and writing and everything it's just the music and Jenna is amazing and all this stuff and they don't see how it is to get that, to get one hour of a show. But they shouldn't. That's not the whole point is you're supposed to make it look, look fun and breezy.

I know, but I sort of, I sort of want them too because, you know, when people come to set and they want to see what you're doing, they're like, oh my gosh, you're doing this scene again. It's like watching paint dry. It's like the worst thing ever is being on set. So it's like, I wish everybody would know, like, they all think like, I could act. I could do this. Wow.

This doesn't look that hard. you're an easy job. And look, we're all grateful and happy to be doing it. But at the same time, it's not glamorous. It's not glamorous. You're usually shooting in warehouses or somewhere, you know, where nobody would want to be in the middle of the night. So, I mean, it's, you know, it's what Rogers used to say, everybody has two businesses, their business and Joe business. So that's just the world.

But it is still what's great about it. It's always different. It is always different. Every day is a challenge. Yeah, when you're making something, every day something else goes wrong that you don't expect. So how do you solve? So it's constantly like problem solving and making things work that shouldn't. And then the budget gets cut and so how are we going to make this work?

It seems impossible. But then you have to find the creative solution behind it. But it's just to me, it's always a privilege to sit there on a set and think this is actually, you know, we sat down at the farmer's market and came up with this idea. And here we are. Like, okay, take me back to the farmer's market. You're at the farmer's market. You get a sandwich or something.

You're sitting down. You got a donut actually. Huh? You got a donut? What did you get? Bob's donuts. Yeah. Donat too?

Yeah. Coffee. Hot chocolate. We got iced tea. And Bob's Donuts. Yeah. Bob's Donuts. I'm just painting the picture here for folks.

This is a place over on 3rd Street. Yeah. And it's the farmer's market. There's shops and little. So imagine these two guys, old friends, 27 years, 30 years. 30 years. Oh, at the time, 28.

Yeah. And they're sitting down for donuts. And who says, you know what? I don't think of Wednesday Adams was an interesting character. How did it start? Well, it's, it's started. I mean, it was honestly, we were, we had been back from.

We'd basically been away for four years from like 2014 to 2018 making the Shinar Chronicles into the bandlands. So we were in New Zealand and Ireland. And that was hard because it was literally just different sides of the world making shows. Yeah. And then going to Toronto to the new post. So it was like there was a crazy setup which we should never have done. But our problem was always, but we never say no to anything. So we had to.

Well, this is also we were trying to get both shows in one place. And then we ended up literally if you dug a hole through the earth from Auckland to, Dublin, you'd hit it. Like, we were that far away. It was like Lady Hawk. Like, if Miles, we could talk to each other at like 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. Like that was, it was, it was literally a 12-hour time difference. So we were, we were back, you know, we'd done these two, you know, big fantasy post-apocalyptic shows. Both were huge world building. And then, you know, it's, it's always the thing, though. You're basically back at the bottom of the mountain trying to find your next show. inside of you is brought to you by rocket money if you want to save money then listen to me because

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is an incredibly brutal martial art show. It was really relentless and very difficult to shoot in terms of it was. It wasn't fun. It wasn't fun. It wasn't fun. Yeah, I mean, the show, the show wasn't fun. The show was great. I mean, we're really proud of the show.

I think it's a show that was underappreciated, but because it was ahead of its time. But we wanted to something, we wanted to something smaller and more like. This is our little show about a girl in boarding school. And also, to be honest, we wanted to do. do a show for our daughters. Yeah. Because you have two daughters each, right? Yes.

Yeah. And we also kind of, part of it was like, like Smallville, which is like, is there an iconic character who's that there's a chapter that hasn't been told? And so we kind of got to Wednesday Adams and then. Yeah, you have a sort of a propensity. Yeah. Yeah, we own that. I think we own that corner now.

Teenage years. Teenage years. Yeah. So it was, so we were, so we kind of wanted to, it's, it's, it's. It's a little, like, getting back to your roots, little, how do we change it up? How do we do something that's in set present day, even though it was a big world building show? Do you remember who brought it up? It came, well, it came out from Al, because Alvin had been at MGM for, with some friends, and they worked on the animated movie.

And Wednesday was the highest testing character in the animated movie. And we thought, oh, that's a really interesting. So we're like, oh, what if that's live, and here's what's interesting is they didn't know who had the live action TV rights. So we basically came up with a whole show on spec. So we worked the whole and then went to Paramount. And then we had and then this was also. Paramount did the original live action movies. No, so we thought, oh, who has it?

Does Paramount have it or because MGM was doing the animated movies? And it turned out that MGM had the rights, but they had a very contentious relationship with the rights holder who's a guy named Kevin Mizraki who was Charles Adams' like landscape architect who befriended him and his wife. And when they died, they left him the estate. And he's built it into this actually incredible, you know, franchise. Because I don't think what we, either of us appreciated was that the Adam's family is still incredibly popular around the world. Well, clearly, right? No, no, but no, but I don't think, but we didn't, I don't think we sort of, we're like, anyone appreciated it. We knew the Adam's family. But we're like, you know,

because there was a musical about 10 years ago with Nathan Lane. And I can't remember who played Morticia. It ran on Broadway for a year. To be honest, not a terribly good show. It has been the number one produced high school show for the last 10 years, licensed. So when people go, what's my spring musical going to be? It's the Adams family. So interestingly, kids know the Adam's family. The animated movie came out and made $200 million. So it's one of those things. It's just like, people love it. People love it and it's there. So wait a minute. So you're saying, you sort of do the research of, you know, demographically, uh, genders, who's watching. Is there, is Do you do that before you come up with ideas?

No. No. This was something where it was like, oh, here's a character. Nobody knew who had the rights. It's clearly just sitting out there. It's not, here's the other thing. It wasn't owned by a studio, right? There was a separate Adams Foundation.

And so we, with the help, Steve Stark was the president of MGM television at the time. He's now a producer on the show, and Andrew Mitman, who was his executive. And they, so we went in and we had done this thing. We pitched it to them. They loved the idea. It was like a 20 page. page detailed bible of what the series should be which is very similar to what the show is yes with all the characters and the world and the mythology of nevermore and what the first

season would be in terms of laying out the mystery story so it was and what the pilot was and this is all on spec in terms of what we it's good we always do this anyway just that we know what the show is before we go pitch it yeah so it's something we do whenever we do a show right so they were like great we don't even know if we have the rights we pitched it but first we pitched it to the rights holder who who really loved it because he you know saw he said there was a which is true there's a sophistication to the charles adams cartoons which he didn't feel got captured in a lot of these animated things they felt more kitty and he liked this because it felt more true to the to the tone of of his original work so he was on board right and then mgm through various legal things because of the animated films had what's called the right of last negotiation so which basically means if anybody else tried to come in if mgm came in with like a dollar more they could get the right so mgm negotiated the rights and then we went to, we went out and pitched it around town and had one buyer, which was Netflix. So only one buyer?

Only one buyer. Wait, wait. How many did you pitch? We pitched five at least. And they all said no. And so Netflix, this was in, this was in late 2019. And then Steve said write the pilot because, you know, we had a, at that point, we had a deal. So we wrote the pilot script.

And then MGM and Netflix couldn't agree on a deal, on a license fee for it. Which is how much they're going to spend per episode. Like, how big a budget you have for per episode? They couldn't agree on that. Yeah. And then how much the studio was going to get? Because they're not partnerships anymore the way it used to be in broadcast television. The outside studio is basically working for a fee.

It's like a contractor working for a fee who then gets hit with the overages if there's a problem. It's not a great setup. It really is not a great setup. So suddenly it was couldn't make a deal. It was dead. But then Steve got MGM, his bosses. to finance a writer's room for 10 weeks for us to break out the rest of the season, which we thought was crazy because we're like, what streamer is going to buy a show

that they didn't have a hand in developing? Yeah. But we're like, if this keeps it alive, we'll do it. So it was Miles myself and two other writers. That's expensive. Yeah. No, it was not cheap. And it became the first Zoom room because we started the week of lockdown, which feels

writing a show about Wednesday, Adams, during a global pandemic feels on brand. Very. So we basically broke out the rest of the season, had written at that point four or five more scripts. And we knew, okay, if we're going to go out with this again as a bigger package. So round two of pitching. Round two of pitching. We need a big director element. And Tim was always at the top of our list.

And everybody's like, Tim Burton's never done television. And, you know, I started in sales out of college. I said, well, if you don't ask the answers now. So we got it to Tim's agent. And then we thought, okay, we may never hear from. It's actually, as you know, it's actors or an actor. Like, you send actors scripts. You never hear back or it takes like eight weeks to get back and then they pass.

Then they pass. It's like, oh, he finally read it. Oh, yeah. It's a pause. It's like, it's throwing things into the ethers. It's like just, it's never, never happens. Never hear back. Never hear about it.

And then four days later, we heard back. Tim read the script. He loved it. He wants to get on a on a call with you to talk about it. And Mike Simpson's his agent, who's, about a huge agent over at WME's Quinn Tarantino and we said oh great well he set up a Zoom or something he goes

no I'm going to send you Tim's number and you can face time him tomorrow because he lives in England so we did and it was like a classic where was your mom's he was in this place near Oxford this beautiful like country estate and the garden is filled with these life-sized dinosaur like statues so he's standing there in his dinosaur garden

talking to us on his on his and losing reception it was It was just like, you get moving around. We're like, we can't believe we're talking. And he's like, I love the script. He goes, were you nervous? Yeah, because he's important. Yeah, yeah.

So you're just going like, and we have a number. And I had never done a FaceTime before. So I was like up early practicing it with my kids going like, oh, if I put this, I have to put two numbers in this thing. How do I do it? Zero one, one. Wait, four, four. I don't know what the hell it is.

Right, right, right. So we did it. And he's like, I love the script. I felt like you were in my head. Like it all, I would have dated Wednesday. Adams in high school and we were like oh my god like it was amazing we're like great you know so we have this because so you know we're like do you want to would you like to direct the pilot because i want to direct all of them he goes do you have more and then so he he ended up doing four

of the eight so he would have done more he would have done all of them if what are the odds it's zero i mean everybody's passing you get a writer's room when you don't even have funding really except you know you don't no one's bought it's like you're doing all these things that sound like this is not how it works it's a waste of money it's not happening this is what they always tell you yeah i pitched the show and i loved it and i had the whole thing and the series but the bible and they're like no i'm like oh and my agent's like well write something else that's right yeah that's usually you why do you keep going why do you keep going yeah and so we and so we got tim and then we went out again and this time we sent the pilot script out and the bible and then we set up zooms with us and

Tim and everything. And we had one buyer, Netflix, same executives, Teddy B. Sallie. Wait a minute. Yeah. You got Tim Burton and you have five episodes written and you've got this whole. The pilot is they're all exactly the same as we made. Yeah. Those are the episodes we made.

And literally Netflix, it was Teddy B. Sally and Coral Wright, who had bought it the first time, who loved it, who loved the pitch, bought it again. And then this was in August of 2020 and then how it just seems to work. now it took like seven months to close the deal and the deal was closed I remember it was inauguration day of 2021 and then we were you know then it was immediately greenlit we were off to the races and you know and then you have the problem of that's when the world was starting to open again for film production there was no place in the world available to shoot and they were trying to send us to Toronto and the issue we were having was sound stages because the tim burton look is

predicated on sets big sets big sets that require very very big sound stages. And I think the sound stages they were trying to jam us into were like 19 foot. Like 19 foot sound stages. This is this is like as almost as high as this room. Yeah. And then and then we got look and then so we called our producer from Into the Valance saying is there any space in Ireland. Is there and the places we had shot in Ireland. Ireland was full but then the places we had shot had turned into basically COVID testing centers where because of Brexit they become like UPS centers because of just how goods were being transatl. I mean, so that was off the table.

We ended up, we had, and then suddenly Romania was the one place. It's so fitting, though. No, it's perfect. I mean, it's always meant to, it was meant to be. It was. And so we, what better to shoot the ones Adam show than the home of Dracula? And we went and we were like, okay, first we got to, how are we going to, like, what's Tim?

We're like, we got to get Tim on board. And we called them and we said, here's the thing. And we put up a little, like a deck together. And then we showed it to him. And then he literally pulls up on this phone. It's a picture of him and Alice Cooper at Dracula's Castle. So he was, we were like, okay. They'd gone there on a buddy trip.

On just a trip. Like, he just went there for fun. So we're like, okay, this is good. And then Miles went on a scout with Tim. By the way, this is the first time he met him in person. You'd be working for like nine months together. Yeah, nine months together all over Zoom. Like we talked to give you a hug?

Daily over Zoom. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I don't know if he was a hugger or not. Sorry, I hit the mic. And so, and he, and then it was, we went to Romania, which again, as Miles said, turned out to be perfect because we had this massive studio, called Busta, with these incredible soundstages, a huge kind of empty back lot field where we

built the entire town from scratch. Woods right out of the game. It's the opposite of the game. It's the opposite of the small bill. Which is like the yogurt factory in the middle of town. This is like the most where you were just driving to every location. This is like Warner Brothers, but just imagine a haunted one of brothers with weeds growing out of every corner of the sun.

It's still there. Yeah. Yeah. You got to keep it going. Oh, yeah. For next season. Yes, exactly. So it's, but anyway.

I got to come check it out. Is it awesome to see? Oh, it's amazing. I mean, it was, you know, and they, you know, our production designer found these great craftsmen. So all of those gargoyles and statues and everything was all, I mean, the local Romanian crew were incredible. I mean, we really didn't bring in that many outside. You know, when you like film crews, they'd like, they shoot in the country and then they'd bring in a ton of people. You kept a lot of local.

But it's still, it's still incredible. And it's a classic Hollywood story is we only ever had one buyer. It's like, stranger things, they had one buyer. It's E.T. Star Wars. anything that seems to and this was we had no anticipational expectation the show would be because it was or is ever wonder how dark the world can really get well we dive into the twisted the terrifying and the true stories behind some of the world's most chilling crimes hi i'm ben and i'm nicole together we host wicked and grim a true crime podcast that unpacks real

life horrors one case at a time with deep research dark storytelling and the occasional to take the edge off. We're here to explore the wicked and reveal the grim. We are Wicked and Grim. Follow and listen on your favorite podcast platform. I love the fact that only one person. You can't name the other studios that passed? We can guess.

Every other stream. Every other streamer. Every other stream. HBO. Everybody passed. Do you think they're probably those execs are fired now? I don't know if those execs were still there to begin with, you know, just given all the the churn but that thing is no one knows that's always the thing I don't know what I don't blame them

I know but no no one knows but unfortunately these most of the people that are at studios it's fear based yeah I don't want to get fired I have to peas I have to agree I have to very it's very seldom that you find people that are like I see this vision I see what you're going to do no let's do this and Netflix the guy was his name Teddy Teddy be a sally Yeah. And he was absolutely gung ho. Did you know, 100%? Like, did you know right away in the room like, this guy's going to buy it? He wants to buy it. Yeah. Yeah. Because he's one, a fan of genre. And this is always for us when, when Tim came on board, it's like you got Tim Burton and you go Wednesday Adams. That is a marriage made in heaven. Like in terms of the two things come together. Like how do you? You really have undeniable. You have two worldwide brands. Yeah. But how do they, how do you make a deal? Because they're like, oh my God, these guys created small. They'll create it. But they'll create it. But. But. But. in the badlands and create all these movies Tim Burton, oh my God, they're going to drain us. We're not going to have a budget. We're not going to have any money.

That's part of the fear, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, because that's probably, it's like, we're going to have to pay so much money in overhead, right? Yeah. That it's like, is it worth it? Right. How are we going to, you know? Right. And, uh, but I will say, I mean, compared to, well, that said, the budget wasn't high. We had compared to summer shows. It was actually very.

Yeah, reasonable compared to a lot of these other. What was small bill's budget for the pilot at the time? Six million. Smallville's budget for the time. was $5.5 million. That was huge. And that was a that by the way, which is probably like 10 million. I think it's probably more because when we did the the Aquaman pilot a couple years later, we were at 7.5. So man, you can't tell me the what about the budget for this one? You can't really say. You can't say. No. And it's also it's difficult. It's doing all

of them over. It's included in the eight. Yeah, that's the other thing too is there, you know, back in the day you had really episodic budgets. Right now it's all one. Now it's kind of one. And you can't, you know, amortize things the way you did before, you know, because it's easier to take, we're going to build these big sets, but spread over 22 episodes. That's pretty reasonable. So some of it, frankly, the accounting's kind of different. The economics.

The economics are different. Did Danny Elfman do the music? Yes, he did. I thought he was expensive. Well, it things. It's Danny Elfman for God's sakes. It's Danny Elfman. And it's Colleen Alick who does the costume.

So it's Tim brings his team. And guess what? You see it on. screen and you hear on the soundtrack you get what you pay for yeah let me say this uh how many um wednesday adams did you audition for how many how many actress did you audition how many hundreds i mean we hundreds it's kind again with those roles the way we did with smallville is your casting a super wide net but then you find the one in this case was jena and she was the one who was looking for lex luther who was harder to let's luther maybe who was harder to cast lex luther or

Wednesday Adams. Lex Lutha. Alex Luthor was harder to cast. It was. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So it was just a... No, no, it was. A lot more people to go through.

Here's what it was. There's a lot more people. A lot more interpretations. And what we were looking for, it's a, you know it when you see it kind of thing. And I think it in casting, casting, uh, casting, Clark Kent. Like, once we saw Tom and you just, even if it wasn't like a perfect audition, you're like, that's the guy. Yeah.

And also, I think... And Wednesday is even more iconic in terms of it is one who can deliver the deadpan, but have some soul to that, some, there's something underneath that. So it's not just a cold, like something. It has to be an innate like ability to the person who delivers those. There's a, there's a weird kind of almost like an underlying sweetness. Yeah. And I don't know how she does it.

Yeah. Well, you just, you just are that. That's innate. It's innate. It's the way, it's the way Tom was with small. Like, there's a certain innateness that you, that you either. And to be honest, you, you had a dyslex, They kept saying.

But there, my thing is there could be, like, 50 different versions of Lex Luthor, right? Different, different flavors of Lex Luthor. Yeah. We were looking for us a new flavor that hadn't been seen before, which you had. Which you had. But we couldn't have described it before we saw you. We knew we wanted someone who had, who was actually the interesting. Yeah.

We always talk about the Michael Keaton. Yeah, we said it was like a young Michael Keathe. Yeah, bringing the comedic element to it, which was like, you want someone who has that comedic chops and this is not an insult, but the neediness of a comedian. like they need the and that's what lex says he needs he's looking for love yeah all all comedians they say have the sadness yeah dysfunctional boy you found the right guy yes right and it's and there's a darkness down there that yeah but again you just have to have that you can't act that thanks dad mom yeah right no but it's that it's that thing that that you just i i know what you're saying

there's the tragedy of uh the first time we're actually liking someone and we know where he's going. And you're like, you don't want him to go there. And it's sad. It's like the Luke, it's like Darth Vader. It's like Anakin Skywalker. Right. Yeah. So it's like the same tragic story where we don't want to, you know, you want to save him and he's unsavable. Yeah. I mean, the casting for other characters, who was the second hardest character to cast? Mortisha. No. We had I mean, I think that was pretty easy. Here's a great thing, Michael. When you have Tim Burton, you kind of get your first choice for people. So we, and it was, you know, more,

and what Tim wanted to do, which, which we agreed was, he wanted the mortician Gomez to look like they did in the Charles Adams things. So like that. So that makes sense for Louis Guzman, who looks more like that. Right. He looks more like that. And then he also, though, Miles always said it's, you also want to understand why Wednesday,

because this is a different kind of take, which is she wants to kind of get away from her parents. And so it's like, if your mother, there's an Oscar-winning movie star, you go like, oh, I understand. Like, there's a, how do you get, how do you get past that shadow or out of that? The most amazing actress was Gwendolyn Christie. I was just going to say that. And what I loved about that is I wasn't used to seeing her as so elegant and beautiful and sexy.

And she, and that was, and it wasn't like she was not playing another bad character or another character who's struggling inside. It was, it was different than what I've seen. her in. No, it was, and it was really cool. Yeah, it was just, and that was serendipity. And it wasn't necessarily what we'd imagined, but she's perfect. Once we saw, we saw a picture and it's like, oh my God, it was just, it became inevitable. Once we sort of like thought about and the size differential as well between Jenna and Gwenzel and those scenes is just, there's a magic between those two actresses as well. There's a chemistry that really works. That was just, you can't

predict and it was just and she's she's lovely i mean she's i got to meet her oh think she'll get you think she'd come on the podcast probably yeah she's cool like that yes she's amazing yeah what was i this is going i don't think this is a weird question i wonder if the studio um thought or asked or somebody had their hand up and said what if we make thing a female hand was that ever brought up it you know it wasn't and I think it's just because we were trying it's that's a departure that I think it would have been when you're already doing a reinterpretation of the Adams family and focusing on Wednesday it might have felt like a bridge too far like it might have felt forced yeah

it might like what are they doing yeah right right but we spent a lot of time thinking about thinking about thing yeah in terms of making him a real character and giving emotional sounds ridiculous emotional complexity and but it shows in the way he yeah yeah thing does things you know sort of like yeah the perplexity

yeah the sort of you can really you can really the stabbing of the yeah that's one of the most emotional moments in the yeah you'd like on paper

you'd be like I don't know is that kind of how's that gonna work and that was we agreed like how is it gonna work so it was one of those which we'd like to do is like you have no idea

if it's gonna walk and it could be the cheesiest there's a rubber hand you know stabbed through the wall why should give a shit but that worked it worked but it's like yeah so that's one of the things and we had this amazing crazy Romanian magician yeah what's his name his name's Victor Dorabantu but we did all these additions for thing as well so all these people come in and was the three of us and Tim and

and they were all performing and then Tim would be doing his yeah yeah Tim would be like Tim was really engaged in the hand movements and he'd get on the floor and it goes like giving line readings to a hand. Like Tim would get down. Was it hilarious? It was hilarious. Did you, uh, the guy, what's his name again? Victor. Victor, did Victor ever just like, sometimes you kind of like stretching his hand?

So Victor had a glove because it was, it was cold. So there was something so big like, like warming glove. Yeah, thermal like. Yeah, look like a kitchen, like a mitt like you wear. To keep his hand nice and warm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he could probably after this series go to conventions and autographs. Oh, he already is. I'm surprised you haven't run into him. Fantastic

performance. Everything's so detailed. Yeah. Which it makes sense. It's Tim Burton. It's you guys. It's got to be detail-oriented. Um, is it true Jenna Ortega came up with the dance or is that just folklore? Nope. That's her dance. Come on. The whole dance. The whole dance. She just brought it to stage one day. She lit, Michael, I swear to God. So we, so Google Muck was. So Miles had the cramps on a playlist because we were obviously trying to think of what the song is it wasn't going to be like a current pop song it had to be something kind of classic but it also was because it was coming up yes and so we had like okay we haven't decided what the song's going to be yeah and you need the song before you can do choreography right so finally i just did a playlist on my own like on

spotify and then we sat we sat with tim when i were like what were you like 15 songs yeah and there was one cramp song on that that he liked and said oh i know another cramp song and then he played Pooka Muck. Yeah. And we were like, oh, that's the. And then he, there was a choreographer, but, you know, he went to, he basically went to Jenna and was like, he's like, I'm sure you'll come up with something great. Really? Yeah.

And that was literally it. And then we remember, you know, just sort of watching them film it and then going in and seeing just an assembly of it the next day with the editor and was like, this could be. like the Pulp Fiction Dance. Like that's what it felt like. I mean, Lady Gaga was doing the day. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it was incredible.

It was just like the perfect, you know. But what was, you know, and then this whole like thing, Jenna did get did have COVID after that because we tested really rigorously. Every day, I want to had the full PCR test. Everyone was fully masked. And then, because the PCR was so early, if anyone had COVID, they were taken off set immediately. If the test came back in the afternoon, they were taken out immediately.

before anyone could get an effect because it's so minimal the testing, they can find the most minimal, like, and so that was the day it happened. And as soon as she was, des a positive, she was taken off sets. And there was never any jeopardy.

And she didn't know she had covered when she was doing it. But the fact that she just bought it. There was no, we had a choreographer, she didn't use her and it was all her. Yeah. You said the next day,

I said, the choreographer didn't, or what I saw her. It's like, I saw the dance. Like, that wasn't the choreographer, right? She's like, no.

She's like, I did that. I'm like, Okay. It's incredible, right? Yeah, it's an incredible dance. The choreographer was upset, but they didn't use her dance. I don't know. And she's not responsible for that.

Yeah, we had like Susan and Banshees and, um, yeah, a bunch of stuff. Yeah, but it just was perfect. Yeah. That's great. I mean, it's just so, I mean, when you look at it from filming, from being there, is it always just shock you how, or do you sort of know, like, I know what this is going to be, when this is put together, how special this is going to be. Or is it really, does it really happen in the editing room?

Do you really find it there? I would say in this case, because with Tim and everything, we, once we saw the assemblies, like, the editing, you know, some, some episodes were tougher than others, you know, as they are. But it was, it was all there. Like, when we left, we knew, we knew the show was good. Like, we knew we were like, we're really proud of the show. We were really happy with it. It's like, it fulfilled what we wanted to do. You know, what was Miles said, what we saw in our.

head some of those way better and but we wanted to always be satisfying yeah it's always the thing for us in our in this new film of story telling that it feels propulsive and it's never boring yeah so it's interesting we're watching episodes of smallville because someone like okay it feels like it's very networky in terms of the the repetition and like some of the episodes like a duds like and it's just you don't ever go into it into 22 episodes thinking they're going to be well they're They're going to be dogs. You have expectations of eight episodes. They better be good.

They got it all great. No, no. That's what we think. They have to be good. They have to be. You can't just have a dud in eight. No, no, no. They have to all be good.

And that's always the expect. Nor should you. Right. If you're making eight. Because we're, I mean, Michael, we made eight in the schedule where we made 22 of Smallville. Right. Right. So 10 months.

Yeah. It was about, it was about, yeah, it was like eight. Ten months. Yeah. And also, righting before that. So it's a three and a half of your process to get to the 10 months. Yeah. So the whole thing is just, they have to be great.

Yeah. So they're like, we call them like Fabige X. They have to be great. Yeah. Right. And that's what we always like set out to do. Yeah. So they can't be any, any duds.

Yeah. And it's just. That's a lot of pressure. No, it is because they're. I mean, there's always pressure. Yeah. It's always pressure. But then it's just, sure.

But you have to. And also it's just, it's, again, it's chapters of a book versus short stories in a world, which is what Smallville was that had methammed. episodes that could tie a season together and but but it was just it's a it's a different order right is what is really what I mean are there some characters or or were there any actors or characters that you you didn't think really worked as well as you thought and probably not going to come back because maybe the characters just didn't work you know what was interesting with this one was and this is mostly because of for for budget reasons and schedule and all these things is we're always cutting so what

you know, Wednesday's in 98% of the show. So I think at least with season two, it'll give us the ability now that you've met some of these characters to give them their own stories. To explore. To explore them a little more. I don't think anybody, I mean, other than, you know, Wednesday and Weems

because she was in a bunch of the scenes and then. Maybe Enid a little bit. Yeah, I would say Wednesday Enid Weems got the most. Like, they're the characters that be, and thing, were the ones that people, because they had the most scenes. Because they were in the most scenes with Wednesday. So I think it was very interesting now that would be like, oh, now we can, now that you, people are on the ride, they like the world, they like the characters.

Now you can explore them a little. Yeah. And we, you know, obviously, it's great to get a second season. So you can expand the world. Yeah. And we're always very hard on ourselves and making sure that the show is as propulsive and enjoyable and doesn't, we're never complacent about the storytelling. Yeah. That makes sense.

something that people will enjoy and find the light in. Do you find that now that it's this blockbuster, I mean, probably the biggest show Netflix has ever had, right? Certainly one of them. Yeah. Top three. With Stranger Things. Stranger Things and Squid Game.

Wow. Good company. Yeah. Yes. Crazy. We never, never, never, never, ever expected. We were like, we were aiming for like umbrella academy or like that would have been so, we love that show.

but never expected it's insane yeah do you feel like netflix obviously so supportive bought the show from the first time around they they said yes they were the only ones again the second time around do you feel like they're letting you do your thing the most part they they let us do our thing the first season i mean they don't really they've been they're i mean they're involved and they give and we want we want their notes and their feedback and you know and they but they were they were always behind it. Not too invasive. No, no.

And it's, it's, again, it's like, we, we welcome collaboration that helps and makes it better. So it's always like being open to ideas and open to like outside eyes as well. Like you need fresh eyes sometimes. You're in, you know, you're in the hole. It's like, okay, guys, you've lost the track on this one. So, but it's, and they were incredibly supportive and have to continue to be supportive. And, you know, we were very lucky that, that we had an amazing marketing campaign and not all shows.

get a marketing campaign. And it was one of the few, Ali Feinstein, who did this campaign for them, she's at Netflix. It's one of the few times where you feel like the campaign actually captured

the tone of the show. Like the campaign was funny. You don't mean the outdoor was smart. How many times have you watched something where you're like going that? That wasn't at all when I was thinking the show was going to be. Or a trailer is misleading.

You what you see is what you get. Yeah. Like this is the world we're going into. Yeah. And you're right. And we're invited. They ended up writing a lot of the copy and stuff and then the lines. But still, that's great.

I mean, we'd rather be invited in and help and actually make it sure that it does feel like the show because the same voices are writing the ads as they are writing the show. So you feel that. And that was an amazing experience. Yeah. How soon after did they say, get back in the fucking writing room? Let's go. It was like a couple of weeks when that a couple of episodes aired. Well, as you know, they dropped everything.

So it was like a couple weeks. Yeah, like the first, like, because the data comes in immediately. So they know what's, they know everything, which is the amazing thing. They know when people stop watching, when they start watching it. They watch the whole thing. They watch it again. Yeah. So on this, on the first Monday after the, after the drop, we got, we had an amazing call with them saying how.

They're like, this thing is like. And of course, you know, they call and say, you know, whatever that ad, they put out like, you know, how many hundred a million minutes or something. And they, and they're looking at just like, isn't this exciting? And it's like, yeah, but it's like telling me, we want to go. A zillion dollars. Like, I don't know what that. TD Bank knows that running a small business is a journey, from startup to growing and managing your business.

That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit TD.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD small business banking account manager. But then when they put it in context of where that falls with their other shows, I mean, again, they're an incredible company when you see. I mean, Wednesday was like the perfect storm. It was like they knew how to market it.

They were behind it 100%. And when you see the power of a streaming service like Netflix, it's like when they're behind something, you see their power. And it's just like, and it's and when it, and when something on that show on that on that on that streaming service works. Yeah. And just it's like a, it's just like a viral infection. It just takes off word of mouth and it's a global phenomenon overnight. Overnight. Like you think you guys, like we were, again, Smallville was an immediate hit when it premiered on the WB.

But then you had a season and then you had a summer reruns. And then it sort of was in a year later, it was international. And the second season was bigger than the first season on Smallville. But what was, what was, we're trying to atticited it because we're much more relaxed about this. The problem with Smallville is you're in the room still writing. We're on episode like six when the show premiered. And then you've got, it's just like the pressure to continue on a hit show on network is so much greater because you're actually in the... You're still making, you're still in the sausage factory.

And they're like, they love it. Keep making sausages. They're still battling. And the train is going off the tracks, as you know, like on the on the, oh my God. Just like, holy crap. just the first season it's just like a nightmare um how many scripts are done would you say solid for which first season two oh we just we just saw back in their widest room you just started yeah yeah we're breaking stories yeah in fact before you came here today you were breaking stories

would you say you got a good start for the first second season yeah yeah we're we're we've we're happy so far pitch the we pitched him and pitch jena and i think they're all like yeah everybody's everybody's excited we're it works yeah jena has just blown up i it's incredible So much that I said, can you get Jenna? She's, I don't think Jen is like, Jen is like, you know, and that's, and that's one thing, like, you know, because for us, it's like, she has to her whole team and everything. No, no, but it's, but it's also, it's just like I can't, like I was saying with you guys, it's television was always, you were overnight kind of with something worked, it was like next day people recognizing you. But to be suddenly blasted out on, on Netflix and you're just around the world at the same time is amazing. I don't.

And that was just, I mean, she went, I think she got 30 million followers when Wednesday aired or something. She thought it's six and she went to like 40. Yeah. Yeah. And some people like went from, you know, we got one kid who's like, who's 13 on the show who went from like 3,000 to 400,000. Yeah. You know what's funny is I, I love Jen Ortega. Jenna Ortega is great.

She's not just great on Wednesday, but I remember seeing her in you. Yeah. I remember seeing her in the X. movie X. Yes. I'm like, yeah, I'm like,

she's great. Yeah. She's freaking great. She could turn it on. And I'm like, she's a movie star. Because people will ask me, they're like,

I mean, she's good, right? I go, no, this girl is going to be, she's a movie star. She's got so much talent.

I, you know, she seems like she's great to work with. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually some of, like, with Wednesday,

she like, it's like super, it's a little supernatural in a way. And, but yeah, she's, she's great and this was just the perfect role that just kind of it took a year that she was I mean because screen you know screen open to $36 million last January and then she had she had X and all these things it was like it was it was almost like the her year just started and then Wednesday at the end of it just put her into the stratosphere Christina Ricci just briefly I hear it was hard to get her well she was hard because she was pregnant oh so we had to work out that's different yeah yeah so we had to scheduling We worked out the schedule.

She could come and she all the episodes at the end. So she could be at eight episodes and do it in like three weeks. Yeah. Because she had yellow jackets as well. Yeah. She was finishing yellow jackets. I saw, I didn't finish yet, but I saw most of the first season. It's pretty intense.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's cool. People really like that. And she's fantastic to work with. And she went with Tim on Sleepy Hollow. So it was just like we would really want to make it happen. And she was in the Adams family.

Yes, obviously, as we know. Yeah. So it was just like, and to have the two Wednesdays together felt iconic for this first season. So it was just like, I'm going to actually all work. This was a show where all the things almost didn't work, and they did. Yeah. We got the perfect cost, you know, it was just like perfect.

Fred Armisen. Oh my God. Fantastic. Incredible. So. I hear he's just great. He's that great to work with. He's great to work with.

I would. And he could improvise like any nobody's business, right? You know, he can, but he, but he didn't. So. Did Tim ever ask him to? No, because Tim didn't direct that block. Guess who directed that block? Marshall.

James Marshall, yeah. No, and Fred was, honestly, he wanted the role and he moved his schedule around to do it. And it was always like a weird thing because then we had a COVID shut down. Oh, my gosh, is his window going to get? And he showed up and shaped his head. You see, we only do things. We only do people to shape their heads. And he just, he was great.

I hear he's a great guy. He's lovely. You know, Judd Apatow was in the podcast and he talks about how just that guy can make him laugh like no one else. Oh, my God. I sit in the trailer with him, just because I liked Fred. I'm sure he was like, why is this producer always coming to the trailer to hang out with me in the morning? But, you know, be like, hey, you want to talk about this? And then we talk about documentary now.

Or we, yeah, it was just music, like, you know, huge. He was, he was great. But also the transformation from Fred into Uncle Fester was just like, it's like, as soon as he walked on set with the makeup and the hat and the big, like, your monk's cloak. It's like, what the hell is this? He said because he'd met Colleen in. LA with the costume designer

to try on and Fred goes I was like nervous because I didn't know how I was going to play like he was just trying to figure it out for himself and then he goes I put on that costume

cloak or whatever yeah it's like suddenly and he goes weirdly he goes I just had it you know I just suddenly it just like all clicked yeah all right this is called

shit talking with Alan Miles these are my top tier patrons they give back to the show I love them go to patreon.com slash inside of you to help rapid fire yeah oh gosh leanne what inspired you to do the show wednesday which you already talked about what has been your favorite part about

this project so far i mean he pretty much said that but um favorite part about this project i think welcome to tim budd yeah working with timburn yeah my epi what future projects are you working on that you're able to tell us about we have we have a top secret project we can't talk about but um is it a show no it's a movie yeah which is a damn cool movie if it happens. Yes. Is it action? Is it thriller?

Is it drama? Is it comedy? I'd say it's a horror comedy. Would you call it? Yeah, probably. If it's a horror comedy, I better get involved. Look around you.

I know. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Not really. I want to play. I think I'd be great as the next like sort of like a Nicholson character in

the Shining. Yeah. You could like lose my freaking mind. Like slowly. You know, my thing with you is you're, you're very good and you don't work enough so that's my well well you know what it's unfortunately it's i mean i hate to say it but you know i mean in a good way yeah but it's by choice yeah yeah yeah yeah oh i know i know i just i have this conversation it's your you're like the stanley kubrick of of actors well it's just that

i think you know i think for me it was sort of taking a break a little break to sort of reassess things and kind of like you know work on me but also it's like i feel like i want to do things that really excite me and very seldom do you find things that not only excite you because it's it's not about the money right anymore it's like you know I'm not like I don't have you money but I didn't create Wednesday but I'm saying that yeah I feel pretty happy and content all these things and I just want to do something that I'm like oh my gosh I want to work with that guy sure or I want to be so I'm open to things I'm just like I haven't been very receptive to a lot of the things that have come at me Right, yeah, that's all.

Yeah, I guess, I mean, yeah. And how many times I emailed you going, yeah, they offered me this and you're like, don't fucking take it. Don't say anything. I won't. But, yeah, but that's true. By the way, I have said that. And we get that also, too.

Yeah. I mean, our problem is always saying no, but it's just like some of the stuff you get, it's like, oh, my God, really? This is the one else to do? That's a luxury, though. We're blessed that we don't have to do so. We are. I agree.

I mean, I agree. Wait, and you, you brilliantly, you, and you always did, had so many, you know, music and now, I mean, you got into the podcasting business early and you're great and you're great at it. Oh, thanks. Well, it's the guests that, you know, you guys give all the informative stuff. It's still a point. But you're, I think I, when you first season, when I first turned and forgot, I was like, you're a natural at this.

So you know, it's funny is I was so, I told Ryan, I was like, I used to be so nervous about it and like, you know, I get like, you know, it was anxiety about it. Sure. I want people. And now I, for the most part, like, I'm just kind of like hanging out. Like, I'm like, I'm not worried too much. Right. Where is it going?

Right. Everyone's, I kind of just listen and, and then I go, all right. Yeah. You know, it's kind of, it's fun. Yeah. You guys make it easy. Santiago, what are your feelings for Smallville 20 years later? Again, love it.

Very grateful. It's incredible that it's still, the people still watch it and talk about it and it's still meant so much to people. I heard Annette O'Toole on Talkville this week and saying, you know people come up and say it's the show we watched as a family which is and we've gotten that with Wednesday that's yeah that's really and that's significant in terms yeah the they call it co-viewing the Netflix experience in terms of if people watch something together it's called co-viewing and the co-viewing on Wednesday was through the roof yeah families watching something together which was which was so important and even in today it's even more relevant because people

don't watch anything together everyone's watching the individual phones or devices and to have something that brings people together the way Smallville did. And that's always the most many of the things to us in terms of the fathers and daughters and daughters and daughters and daughters and daughters and daughters and daughters and daughter the idea that the troops watching the show in Afghanistan and Iraq. So profound.

I am so always moved by that and the letters that we received and it's just so to have a show that has an impact in a positive way and both shows are so life affirming that it's great to put that out to the world. Yeah, you know, because Tom and I are obviously doing the, the podcast, Talkville and Ryan right here. And apparently me on a case. And while I call, yeah, I call, well, I call Al for a moment randomly. And I go, I go, you know what? I want to call Miles. He's out of the country right now. I don't know. And I was like thinking, you know, if you gave me your number, I would call

you. Well, you got to call me next time. Yeah, you got to call me. You know what? It'll be like, I don't remember. No, 40. Yes. It doesn't matter, though. I go, Miles. I'll randomly call you and if you happen to answer I'll say Ryan and I put you right here I'll say Miles do you remember we're doing this episode below do you remember no I don't remember that but did you remember that director sucked I love you sound like Johnny Rotten

when I know myles you know the one thing that I think the guys kind of laugh at me they scoff you know some people say you're shitting on the show and I obviously loved small though but like to listen to watch episodes and re-watch them.

And like we talked about 22 episodes a year, as you said, they're done. So I'm very honest in my rating system. But like, I'm like, guys, I have two, like I just gave insurgents, like a rose and a half. Yeah, that's a really good. I love that one. That's a fantastic.

There's a lot of episodes where I'm like, you know, and I think that, you know, I feel bad. Sometimes you watch a couple in a row and you're like, and then you've watched one that's so good. And then you watch a couple, you know, and then story arcs and things. So there's so many, there's so many greatness to it. But I'm also honest about, you know,

watching this. And it's also 20 years old, too. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's like, you know, sometimes I'm like, you know, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.

But Tom really loves everything, but you listen to it. I listen to it. But I do, it's funny because. Do you get mad at me? No, I don't. Not at what I think, what I think is, what I think is, what I think is, when you're doing the synopsies and there's sometimes where I'm just like, why don't we do that? Yeah.

You know, it's always like things you'd rewrite. Yeah. But I do think it's, it's just always hard under the, it's the crucible of time. Yes. on those network shows. Yeah. Oh, of course. But, I mean, we were critical at the time.

Yeah. I mean, there's some episodes like, and sometimes we just like, okay, that, like the, the, we haven't got to it yet. You know, the baby blowing up. Exploding baby episode. Oh, my God. What was that? I think it's like an, I think it's in like season fire or something.

It is like, this is a diabolical episode. Yeah. And then there was like, and which you guys did this was Redux, which was the one we had to shoot in season one. By the way, that episode was shot after the. an alley and when Beeman had fired the crew. Yeah. Not our finest alley.

It was then buried in season two. That's why it's there. Yeah, because it made no sense. What are we doing? It's buried there. It's buried there because they wanted the license fee and because it was doing like it was deliberately put on like the state of the union day because it was going to be everyone knew it was low, low ratings that day.

Right. So it was all purposely. Yeah, it was all buried. It was literally like we have this one. Let's just bury it on a Tuesday. day where we're up against something big yeah what was the one ryan that we just did that i didn't like i didn't hate it but i gave a no no the werewolf one no uh yeah i didn't love that one but it was it was more i gave it a heater it was like it wasn't bad or good it was the one of where

tina greer comes back and face morphs in each person and there was some moments the the greatest moment of that episode was at the end when lana's crying about whitney being did that was awesome i'm like that's the fucking show yeah that's the show well sometimes you just build the show So that's one great moment. Yeah. True. We always talked about if the show has three great scenes, it's okay. You get through.

You get through with it. But they're much more forgiving. Like Ryan goes, I liked it. But the audience is a much more forgiving. I know. That's why I feel like an asshole. Well, I feel like I'm the most critical of Wednesday as well. And the problems I have with the show, no one else seems to have.

It's just like, and I've, well, were your problems, my eyes. I'm not going to bring up. I have all these problems with it. And no one's like, that's fine. It's like, really? No, or people just don't. They don't care. They don't care.

They don't care. they're not. And I remember Peter Roth used to say, because you have an episode where he like didn't work and he goes, if people love the characters and love the show, they'll forgive an episode. They don't care. Like he said, because I said before, it's comfort food, but also an avid viewer

that was watching one in four episodes. Back then. Back then. So it was, you know, and you're right, you have a couple and then you have one that's like. That's sad. It's still heartbreaking. Because you want all of them to be amazing. Of course. And you sit there in the writer's room and on set.

and you believe it's going to be amazing you have to it's always that delusion that you have that everything you're doing is going to be amazing do you know by the way you have to bring us on for rosetta yeah yeah yeah you know you're in yeah of course uh do you know there's another reason why i i left after the seventh season because i signed on for the seventh season yeah and i did that because people don't understand that i actually signed on for another year yeah but part a part of that reason was two other people left after season seven yeah yeah it was you guys Yeah. Yeah. And you, I knew that was happening. Yeah. And I just felt like, you know, this is kind of the, this is the time. Well, how many more stories? It's what are you doing? I did 160 too. I know. And that's for us. It's like, we've done it. It's like, you do it for the wrong reasons then. You're not doing it out of creative fulfillment. Yeah. And I have great respect for everyone who went on and did it. And I'm not dissing them all those show. I haven't watched it. But for us as creative people, it's like, there's a certain point you run out of juice that you're like in terms of doing one thing. You know, And we went on and wanted to do other things.

You felt like this was the end of the road for us. Yeah. Yeah. We have no more stories really to tell. Or that we were in, and not if not in, we understood again. And we're glad they, you know, the network and the studio wanted to keep making the show. And frankly, we trained people who would like, they were chomping at the bit to get into the driver's seat and let them. Right.

It's the thing is television is a team sport. And if you're on a long running show at a certain point, it's step aside and let people that have new ideas or have that energy and enthusiasm come in and keep. take it's like a fucking mirror take the baton and keep going so yeah yeah it's almost like sometimes you edit something and they're just like yeah I just I just don't know what else to do with this so you have to give some young punk who's like you know got the MTV mentality and he'll go and he'll do something yeah oh okay that's what I need to say okay great do that that's not what I do but yeah and those shows it's just it and again it's something that nobody deals with anymore because how many shows are 10 years but you do need that refresh to keep it

interesting and so again we have no regrets of love the show like we did as long as we did and we're so he didn't regret leaving when we did then don't regret leaving when we did yeah i did one of my cuticles or are you know yeah i'm bleeding out yeah yeah nasty yeah yeah i don't know why just it was like a little thing hanging you know and just kind of bite that off i think it's all right though i think it's a perfect time to end the episode excellent what you know this is this was awesome you know It's funny because I told Ryan before, Ryan, I was like, I had them on. I know these guys, you know, what am I going to talk? And they just, it just, it's easy with you guys.

And it's so informative. I think people are going to really love hearing this process, hearing about Tim Burton, how, how hard you worked and how you just took this and kept pushing when everybody said no and the writer, and writer's room. And then getting on the phone with Tim Burton and him like getting it to Tim Burton. Just this whole stuff and just these, these moments. And like, and to get, you know, it's lightning in a bottle. You know, you get it once if you're lucky and you did it again. Yeah. And so, which is, which is fantastic.

I mean, this is the thing. It's beautiful. It's awesome. It's the great thing about Joe business. It can always surprise you. Yeah. Yeah. Never count people out.

No. And it's just, and I think it's, now that we've been through it, you're just grateful. Yeah. You're just grateful. That's the only thing that we feel the most. Yeah. That's the thing that we feel the most. that it's completely unpredictable and all you can do is try and do your best work.

And if it hits and react, people respond, that's just such an incredible blessing and surprise. And we've had so many people reach out from sort of all phases of our career to say how much they enjoy it. So that's also great. That actually has been incredible. That's been incredible. Like people we haven't heard, but they just.

It's awesome. Yeah, it's been great. Well, I love you guys. I love your success. I'm happy for you. I hope we work together again. Yes. I think we will.

you know we will that we will we will make it happen all right thanks guys thanks Michael always love having them yeah dual guests are fun and especially because everybody seems grateful for uh everyone's like you're everyone in the room was like responsible for everyone's career you know what I mean yeah like they give you yours and you sort of help them with theirs yeah yeah it is it's cool and you know let this be known I mean they are in my opinion They're geniuses. They're, you know, they come up with these ideas and they execute them. And they know how to execute them.

And the writing, I mean, the through line, that's all them. This is what creators do. These guys have a vision. They write what they want to be seen and tell the story they want to tell. Let there be no discrepancy. I'm just going to say that. Thanks for listening. I'm going to give a shout out to all my time.

top to your patrons these are the folks that really um on top of listening they they give back to the show patreon.com slash inside of you thank you become a patron today you get shout out you get boxes sent to you my appeal figure out the box that got lost probably my fault but because i pack them and uh all that stuff um thank you for joining page we also have uh youtube lives with the patrons we have sometimes you uh zooms with the top tier patrons there's a lot of stuff so get on there I'll write you a message. Appreciate it. Patreon.com slash inside of you. Here we go. Top tears. Let's do it. I'm going to put my other glasses on the eye. I wish you would. Yeah, because otherwise this could be a really unnerving. Oh, now I can't see you.

Crooked. It's funny because when I have to wear these, I never wear these anymore with the guests because they're blurred. Far away gets blurry. I'm blurry right now. You're not like the Blur Witch Project, but you're like. which brother i'm like the band blur yeah you are um woohoo all right when i feel heavy metal woohoo all right nancy d leah s little lisa yiko jill e b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b lovely I love Dan 99 more San Diego M where's my statue he made me a Lex Luther like statue wow yeah it's a different one it's like I got a metal like or like out of like cheese no no no well it's really cool we'll see Chad W Lee

and P Janine R Maya are Maddie yes Belinda and Dave H Sheila G Bradgie Bradgie and Rach Hada tabatha T Tom N. Lillianna A. Talia M. Betsy D. I don't know what I was doing. Chat L. Angel M. Rianan C. Corey K. K. K. Dev Nexon. Michelle. K. A. Jeremy C. Brandy D. Joey M. Eugene N.

Leah. Corey. Heather L. Jake. Uh, think of the actor. G. No, Jake. He has a crazy dad. Oh, uh, B. Yep. Jake B. Megan T. Angela F. Mel S. Orlando C.

Caroline R. Christine S. Eric H. Shane R. Andrew M. Tim L. Karina N. Amanda R. Gen B. Kevin E. Stephanie K. J. J. J. Jamm and J. Leanne. P. L. L. L. S. S. S. Brian L. K.D. B. Ar. C. C. C. Mary R. Shina L. L. L. Jessica B. Mike F. Stone H. Stone H. St. H. H. S. S. S. S. S. R. K. K. K. K. L. H. S. D. S. S. S. G. S. M. S. S. S. S. G. S. S. Kaylee J. Megan Kay, Mickey L. and Brian A. Couldn't do it without you guys. I thank you again and again. From the Hollywood Hills in Hollywood, California. I am Michael Rosenbaum. Brian Tayas, everybody. A little way. Have you done that probably a hundred times? Probably. Probably. I'm insane. Be good to yourselves. We'll see you next time. Thanks for making this podcast, your choice to listen to.

the stacking benjamin's podcast today we're going to talk about what if you came across $50,000 what would you do put it into a tax advantage retirement account the mortgage that's what we do make a down payment on a home something nice buying a vehicle a separate bucket for this addition that we're adding $50,000 I'll buy a new podcast you'll buy new friends and we're done thanks for playing everybody we're out of here stacking benjamins follow and listen on your favorite platform