Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Big Cass on returning to wrestling, alcohol addiction, being fired from WWE, is AEW next?

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Big Cass aka Caz XL (real name William Morrissey) is a professional wrestler known for his time in WWE and NXT. He sits down with Chris Van Vliet in Tampa and opens up about his return to wrestling after spending time in rehab for his struggles with alcohol. He talks about how he was able to get clean, getting into the best shape of his life, his current relationship with WWE, his interest in AEW, why he was fired from WWE, how Diamond Dallas Page helped him in his journey, his girlfriend AEW broadcaster Lexi Nair, his tag team partner Enzo Amore (aka nZo), what really happened when they invaded the G1 Supercard show at Madison Square Garden and much more!If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests.  For more information about Chris and INSIGHT go to https://chrisvanvliet.com Follow CVV on social media: Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, y'all? It's Druski, and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Do Zone with Drusky. Learn the backstories of your favorite ballers and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around that time? Come on, bro. I ain't that old, fam.

You're talking like I was 50. Taylor, Rokes, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to the Doozone with Drusky on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. And here we go. Welcome back to another audio adventure here on Insight. I'm Chris Van Fleet. Thank you so much for coming back each and every week in a sea of podcasts that are out there.

And if this happens to be your first time here, welcome. I appreciate you stopping by. If you haven't yet, take a second to click subscribe or follow wherever you happen to be listening to this. And snap a screenshot. Let us know that you're on this ride with us. Tag me on social media. I'm at Chris Van Fleet. Tag Big Cass.

He is at the Kaz. that's C-A-Z-X-L. And this, my friends, this is a rare in-person interview. Oh! We don't get a lot of these these days. In fact, this is a classic in-person hotel room interview that if you subscribe to my YouTube channel, you were so used to seeing before COVID.

But this is the first in-person hotel room interview that we've done in, wow, in well over a year. Sammy Callahan was the last one right before COVID hits. So we did this one last weekend at RussellCon in Tampa. And a lot of you guys who listened to the show were there. It was so awesome. Meeting with you and chatting with you. I hope this is a sign of things to come that we can do more in-person stuff

as we continue on into 2021. There's a lot in this conversation. And we get deep. Cass opens up about everything. He's super open. He's super honest. He talks about his big. battle with alcohol addiction, the very public seizure that he had, being fired from WWE, his recovery,

and how he's now a completely different person than the last time we saw him on TV. And if you haven't seen the photos when he made his return in an indie show in February, he looks incredible. He's in the best shape of his life right now. And I can't wait to see what's next for him. Big thank you to Alex Hunt 1000 for this review on a Apple podcast. Also, Alex is the guy. If you've been to my website, Chrisfanfleet.com, Alex is the guy who does some amazing writing on there and the recaps of these interviews. So Alex, thank you for the review and thank you for all the hard work you do on Chrisfanfleet.com. This review says the best wrestling interviewer of the 21st century. Chris is a breath of fresh air

in the wrestling world. He has a great mix of nostalgia and current day talent that appeals to a wide audience. With every episode, I learned something new and it inspires me to be a better person. Cheers from England, Chris. Keep crushing it. Well, cheers to you, sir. I appreciate you. Appreciate the review. And I'll continue reading one out on every single episode for the next month or so.

And then I guess that's it. We're looking to get to 2,000 reviews before my birthday, which is May 19th. And I think we did the, I don't know, there's like 170 to go. So it's a lot. But just please keep those coming. And I know we can do it. Vague goals get vague results. Right?

My guest today is an inspiration and has one heck of a story. Please welcome KazXL, aka Big Cass. You look good, man. Thank you very much. You look really good. You look fantastic. What is this turning into? I don't know, man.

Putting each other over right now. It's so good to see you. Oh, thank you very much. And good to see you back in a wrestling ring as well. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been a eight. It took about 18 months off. But there's a long journey back.

I had to take care of some other things first, but I wanted to get back into wrestling. It was my first love, and here I am. How does it feel being back? It feels amazing. You know, there was a point in time there when I thought, I don't want to go back to wrestling. I almost hated it or resented it so bad. And, man, about four months ago, I woke up, and I was like, I realized that that was the first thing I fell in love with, man. I was like, you want to do what you love in life.

You want to do what you're passionate about. or you know you're not going to be happy and uh so i was like i am passionate about wrestling i have to admit that first uh and then i started my journey back to getting in the ring so where did that journey into getting back another ring where did that begin man it started with little things like listening to something to wrestle with or listening to some wrestling podcasts and because i hadn't done that in like well over a year so i started with that then i was watching old wb pay per views and then i said started watching some old Ring of Honor stuff. And eventually it was kind of consumed me a little bit.

The gym was always a big part of my recovery because it helps me mentally. But yeah, when I decided to go back to wrestling, I got really serious. I was doing two days, cardio in the morning, and then I'd lift later in the day and dieting like crazy. And yeah, because if I'm going to come back, I'm going to come back in the best shape of my life. And you are. I mean, you're in phenomenal shape. Yeah.

Yeah, you look great. Thank you. Yeah. So up until before four months ago, were you completely done with wrestling? Yeah, I think so. I was kind of just looking. I was thinking about going back to school to get my master's degree in social work because I'm very passionate about recovery and I want to help people.

And that was an option to go back and get my master's degree in social work so then I can help other addicts and help people in recovery. Yeah, and I was kind of just looking at different pads in my life. And yeah, I told myself I wasn't going to go back to wrestling. And, yeah, here I am. I just, yeah, I don't know. It's, I guess it was resentment or just I really hated it, like I said, for a little while. And I didn't want to do anything.

It didn't have anywhere near it. Well, the thing is, it didn't end on your terms. And now it can. Yeah. Now it can begin and end on your terms. Yeah. And it didn't end on my terms. And I guess I'd make excuses.

like, you know, you blame everybody else but yourself, especially before you get into recovery. And I don't, I didn't want to associate with old friends. I didn't want to associate with old coworkers. I didn't want anything to do with wrestling. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you just say it was just chucked it up to a resentment. And then reality hit and I was like, no, I really love this. Yeah. I want to go back. Did you expect the response that you got after you debuted or re-debued? No, I didn't. I was. Speaking to Gallows, and he reached out, and he told me to come to his house in December, I believe it was, and I went to his house, and he saw how good I was doing, how healthy

it was, and how positive I was. And he said, let me get you on a show. So then I believe he booked me on the February show, but the whole week or even two weeks prior and even the day of, I was super nervous. Like, what if people don't pop? What if people don't react? He just kept saying, trust me, man. They're going to react.

And I said, I don't know, man. It's been a long time. He said, just trust me. So take me behind the curtain that night. Your music's about to hit. You know what's going to happen. You don't know what the reaction is going to be. So what's going through your mind at that point?

Super nervous. What I did in the match was pretty easy. So we kept it that way on purpose. So I wasn't nervous about that. I was nervous about the reaction. Are people going to cheer? Are they going to boo? Which is better than just being indifferent.

But the biggest one, I was like, If they just don't even recognize me and they're like, who's this guy? That would have been awful. Obviously, that's not going to be the case, though. Right. You weren't gone that long. Yeah, it wasn't gone that long. And I think especially wrestlers, we get a little self-conscious sometimes.

And, yeah, I guess I, you know, in my head, you know, made it seem worse than it was and longer than it was. But, yeah, now you say that, like, looking back, it really wasn't that long of a time. I mean, it probably felt like an eternity, if you were. you. It did. Yeah, because the last time I had wrestled, I was in such a, I was a different person the last time I even stepped inside of a wrestling ring and so unhealthy mentally and physically. And it just seemed like I'd gone through so much to get to where I was. Yeah, it seemed like an eternity ago. Where were you at mentally the last time we saw you in a ring? Doing what I did best, pretending that I was happy and pretending that I was doing real well and being

positive and putting on a mask all day, and especially in front of the boys and pretending that I was doing great when I wasn't. I was really struggling on the inside. And that's something that I used to do real well. It was pretend that I was doing great and be positive. But man, I was not. It was very dark on the inside. Did you know at that point that you had a problem? I knew a lot of people would tell me I had a problem. But I think I was so delusional, even after I had that first seizure in Philadelphia at the House of Hardcore show, I still didn't think I had a problem. Like, the next day, I thought, yeah, you have a problem. And then two days later, I was like, no, you could drink again. And I guess, yeah, I guess it just after that, the rest of that year and then, you know, all the

incidents that happened. And then finally, when I went to rehab, is when I finally admitted, like, you have a serious problem. Was it you that went, okay, I need to go to rehab? Or was it people around you? It was people around me. And that was the reason why the rehab didn't work the first time. Because when you're doing it to appease other people and make them happy and make them see you in a more positive light, that is just not the right intention. It's going into it for the wrong reasons.

Now, a lot of people do go in for the wrong reasons and stay for the correct ones. I unfortunately wasn't one of those people. So I went in for the wrong reasons. and I relapsed pretty immediately after I got out of rehab. I rehab the first time. Like, how quickly are we talking? Hours. Wow.

Yeah. Was this a conscious thing where you're like, I know he shouldn't be doing this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah, it's, man, it's kind of a, you, I got myself, I conditioned my brain to alcohol to such a point, was mentally obsessed with it. So even when I was in rehab and I'd pass a liquor store or something, I'd immediately,

my brain would light up. I don't know what the chemical would, maybe dopamine or serotonos. Something would shoot off in my brain just seeing the liquor store. So deep down, I knew I was not going to stay sober. I pretended like I was, and I lied to myself like, yeah, you're going to really do this. No, deep down I knew that I was not going to the first time. And then where did you think your path was going to lead you to from there? I thought I was going to be able to do it.

what I was always doing, which is pretending at the right times and, you know, suffering in silence on my own and fooling people in the thinking I was doing great. But you can only fool people for so long because the problem is you're fooling yourself. So I was really just lying to myself, fooling myself all the time. And I thought I was going to be able to pull this off the rest of my life. Wow. Yeah. When we look back at that video of the seizure, the infamous video, have you watched it? No. Would you watch it? Uh, nah, in the right frame of mind, yeah, yeah. Do you remember that night?

I remember a little bit of that. I remember doing the signing. I remember, uh, I went to lunch with Gangrel. Um, I remember talking with Bubba and Tommy in the locker room and going over my promo with, with Tommy Dreamer and really being into it. And then, um, I was supposed to be on right after intermission. So, but I had to go sign at intermission. So I remember putting my water bottle, which I would just dump on my head and my comb right by the table, the gorilla table, or whatever, the curtain in that arena.

And that's the last thing I remember. Because right after that, I must have walked out to the merch table. I don't remember anything except being loaded into an ambulance. That's the next thing you remember. Yeah. Wow. And then you're in the hospital. And then what are they telling you?

I did what I did best. man, I lied. Wow. Yeah, I tried to come up with some bullshit. I don't know if we can use profanity. Yeah, yeah. Some bullshit to the hospital about maybe I'm dehydrated. I haven't been sleeping enough.

It was exhaustion. But I knew it was alcohol withdrawal, and I was too embarrassed to admit that to anybody. So I just, yeah, it was something else. But there are a few, there were a few of the boys. there that night that I'm not going to mention, I texted me the next day and they said, hey, man, you had a huge bottle of liquor in your bag and you weren't drinking that entire day. Like, I think it was alcohol withdrawal. So some people knew, but I was super embarrassed. So basically you left the hospital and then you needed to drink again.

Yeah. And was this a daily thing for you? Every day. Son up to sundown. No way. Son up to sundown. And is this date as far back as your time in WWE? No, I think when I was with WWVI, I had responsibility.

Sure. I had to get on a plane every Saturday and do house shows and then do TV. Once that responsibility went away, I had an apartment to live in. I had money in the bank. I had a car. I had everything I needed. I had no motivation to do anything. So I just drank all day.

That was after your WW release? Yeah. So would that be the catalyst for what started this? I think I had a problem way before. Yeah. But, I mean, everybody has a relationship with alcohol. Yeah. Some people are just, you know, able to have a few drinks and then that's it for their night.

Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I think that that, it just put, it gave me the opportunity, it gave me the, the unfortunate opportunity to live with no responsibilities, which is a horrible thing for an addict. Yeah. Yeah. So what was the, when, I mean, obviously you were drinking during. your time in WWE, when did it start to go downhill? Probably like 2017. Okay.

Yeah. It was, again, you're wearing a mask, you're hiding, and you're making everybody think, you know, you drink in your room and you make sure nobody sees you. Yeah. Yeah, about in 2017. And there was just so many things going on mentally, and I was really struggling. And I didn't want to say anything because it's not, it shouldn't be embarrassing, I was embarrassed and humiliated.

And I guess there's a stigma around mental health, which is, you know, toughen up. Especially, you know, just especially in, you know, athletics or wrestling or any kind of tough person business. It was, you know, so you just tell yourself, oh, just tough enough. Toughen up. But that's the wrong way to go about things. But I'd also have to think you're at the top of your career at that point. Like, things are going really, really well for you in WWE. Yeah.

You don't want that to be taken away from you either. So I think maybe you're thinking if I tell someone I have a problem, all of this gets taken away. Yeah, which is an unreasonable thing because people understand. But yeah, I guess you don't want to say anything, your career, your personal life, and you love putting out that image even to those closest to you that you're fine. Yeah. And you don't want to be weak. So, yeah, you're just, you're playing a part all day when you're around people. It's an act.

Yeah. Did you know that a WWE? released would be imminent? Yeah, I had a feeling. I was really acting out and really making a lot of mistakes in fairly short amount of time. And I definitely

expected it, that's for sure. You had a big match of the pay-per-view that weekend. Money in the bank. Yeah. And then two days later, you're released. Without them wishing you well in your future endeavors, too. Yeah. I don't know what that was about, but I do I remember the day that I was fired.

It was a meeting with Vince, and me and him and Carrano were in there for quite a while. And we had a really good conversation. And it was more of a conversation about the performance was maybe touched upon for a minute in terms of, you know, big cast. That whole conversation was mostly about William Morrissey. And yeah, I mean, I don't know why the future endeavors wasn't. I don't know. I don't look into that.

But I got, I thought it was, you know, I thought it was amicable when I left that building that day. Do you feel like the doors still open at WWE? I do. I think with time and earning, you know, people's trust, you know, just as I earn my family's trust and friends' trust, you know, it's people have to see you doing well over a certain period of time to when they say, oh, this isn't the act. It's a new person. I'd have to think it begins with winning the fans over. Yeah, for sure. And that has started.

Yeah, and like I said, I wasn't even sure that that was going to be the case. And I was so blown away at their positive response that it got on social media. And I guess I really shouldn't have been surprised because when I first went into rehab, Dallas had people who said fans can send fan mail in support of mail to. the DDP Y Performance Center. Yeah. And he would ship them down to me to Tampa while I was in rehab. And they just kept coming. And I had so many envelopes filled with fan mail.

Wow. People really supportive, man. And I will look back at that stuff now. Like, and just it really, it really brightens my spirits because people were behind me even from that, that get-go. But like I said, self-conscious business, and you think they're not going to remember me. But that I should have just always went back to those letters that people wrote me because there was so many of them and opened them. And I still go back and read them.

If I ever, you know, feel down on a certain day, I'll go back and read some of them. Is there any specific letter or any specific line from any of them that stand out and makes you go, oh, my God, maybe brings tears to your eyes? Not that I could think of one specific line, but there's a lot of love. And so many people relating either themselves or a family member and saying, this happened or they could relate to the situation. And that's in that situation, I guess that's something you really need is someone to relate to you. You need to feel like you're not alone.

Not an outcast. And you need to feel like, okay, there's people out there who are suffering just like me. Well, and I appreciate you opening up about this. Because everybody deals with this on some sort of level, and they certainly know somebody who's dealing with it. Yeah. And I think opening up took a huge weight off of me. But also, I think just my point of view is my opinion.

And if I'm not talking about it, who am I helping? If I'm going through this and I'm gaining all this positive from, you know, other people and getting their advice, if I'm not talking about it and who am I helping? Because if nobody knows and no one can relate and say, oh, wow, like, he's going through that or, wow, I'm going through the same thing, which a lot of people wrote about in the letters. And without me, I know, I felt like it was a little bit selfish for me to keep that time. myself. As crazy as that sounds, because it is my personal life.

But, yeah, I just wanted people to be able to relate to me. You probably have people coming up to you every day going, man, I'm five years sober, 10 years sober, 15 years sober, whatever it happens to be. Yeah. Like, you had a giant line at RussellCon today and yesterday. Yeah. I imagine there was a bunch of people on that line telling you that same thing. Yeah.

There's a bunch of people. There's one guy that was there yesterday. He's 10 years sober. and it's uh there's so many people that you know you don't realize it but they'll come up to you and then they'll say like appreciate what you're doing like I'm proud of you and you know I'm ex-imally you're sober and stuff like that so if you weren't ready for recovery the first time because other people were you know asking you to do this yeah what made you ready for the time now it became a matter of life and death wow yeah it was uh you know I had a few few more seizures after the

The one in Philadelphia. After I went to rehab, I had a few more seizures later on. These ones were in private? Yeah, they were. Family and my girlfriend and her family. It was awful. And it got to the point where I knew it was going to die. It was just a matter of if I keep going down this path, I was going to die.

And there was a point where maybe I didn't even care about that. But for some reason, call it divine inspiration at this point. time, I did care. And I was like, you can't die. Like, you cannot. So you got to do something about this. I could have easily given up, but I don't know if something in my, some instinctual thing told me, you got to keep going. And the hardest thing to do is to reach out for help. And who did you reach out to? I reached out to the people in my sober network, people that I was in rehab with, my roommate from rehab, people from my AA home group. And people, people. that are in my recovery network, and they immediately helped me out. And I got on a plane to come

back to Tampa to go to rehab. And now Tampa's home for you? Tampa is home. It was home for a while. Right. But you were living with Diamond Dallas Page for a while. I was with him for on and off for a few months. But I, Tampa has been my home since 2017. But I was up in New Jersey and New York for a while also. I didn't know what I was. I had nothing. I was just all over the place. man. How much did Diamond Diles Page help out in this journey you've been on? Well, he helped out a great deal. He, you know, he was one of the first people to be, to give me a platform and encourage me to share what I was going through. Yeah. Again, because if I didn't do that, then people can't relate to it. And I think that's, you know, that's, that was a big first step. It was me, you know, admitting, admitting. I did, I think I admitted it in a promo, like backstage after I wrestled Moxley. But the video that DDPY put out really got the word out about what I was going through. Yeah. People think this is easy.

People think it's just like check into a program and magically you're fixed. No, and people say things like, well, I don't understand why you just don't stop drinking. And I'm like, I never thought of that. That's some brilliant stuff right there. That's prophetic, man. Like great, great life advice. Just stop. Oh, okay.

Yeah, people do think it's just that easy. And to be honest with you, I'm ashamed to say. this, but there was a point in time many years ago where I thought the same thing, where I didn't think I had a problem. I just thought, yeah, it's just that easy. Why is that person struggling, you know? Yeah. So I understand why some people think that, because I was one of those people many moons ago.

What was the breakthrough moment for you in recovery? Breakthrough moment for me? Finally, admitting that maybe I don't know everything. admitting that I shouldn't be in control anymore. It's hard to give up control, but it's also hard for your ego to let you say, you don't have all the answers. And boy, did I think I had them all for a very long time. And I thought I was fooling everybody. And I'm going to figure this all out by myself. Everybody else can do that program stuff. But I'm going to do it my way. And I woke up one morning and I came to the realization,

there is no my way, there's no option C in this thing. Yeah. There's no door number three. It's either you got to do what everybody else is doing, reach out and ask them for help and do what they've done or suffer the really, really horrible consequences. There's no other game plan.

And in this case, you're saying the horrible consequences would be not living anymore. It's 100%. It's, uh, that's so scary to think about. I guess, I say it's so nonchalantly. Maybe it's a little bit of insecurity and embarrassment, but it was to that,

realistically, it was to that point where, you know, I talk to friends and family now, and, you know, they say if they got a phone call, trying not to get emotional, if they got a phone call one morning, that they, they wouldn't have been surprised that I passed away, man, so it got to that point, yeah. But look where you're at now. Yeah, man, it's fucking crazy. Dude, I'm really proud of you. Thank you.

I'm trying not to cry here too now. I appreciate it, man. No. And through Diamond Dallas Page, you've met your girlfriend, who's incredible. That's right, man. Yeah. That's a hell of a gift. Yeah, his stepdaughter, Lexi, there.

She works with AEW now. Yeah, I met her through Dallas. I don't know if people know you guys are together. I don't think they do. They do now. Yeah, kind of kept it quiet. I don't really love putting my personal life out there. But, you know, it's something that I've always tried to keep private.

But, yeah, I met her through Dallas. She was with me through almost this entire process. She never gave up on me. I got you, man. It's tough. Super embarrassing, man. It's not embarrassing at all. You should be really, really proud of yourself.

Yeah, she never gave up on me, man. She saw in me what I see now. Yeah. Because there was a long time there where I didn't see it at all. What is it? What is it this she sees in, you know? When I'm at my best and I'm sober, that I can help make people's lives around me better.

I can bring joy to people's lives. Instead of doing what I was doing in the past, which was just bringing misery to it. Yeah. helping others is something that now I know is my mission in life to help other people even if something as small as like opening the door for somebody at the grocery store you don't know what somebody's going through uh they could have just been divorced they could have a death in the family and it could just take a walking down the street past something

how's your morning going could really brighten someone's the i start at the beginning of day i start that blow like it's something that simple and um Yeah, she just saw that I was someone that could maybe help touch people's lives. And I sure as hell did not see that. Yeah. Even with just something like this conversation here, you're touching so many people's lives. I hope. No, you are.

Now that you're back in the ring, now that you're in incredible shape, what are the goals that you have? So for right now, man, I really like what I'm doing. I get to pick my schedule, work the shows I don't want to work, enjoy my time alone with my girlfriend. And, you know, Tampa's a great city. And we have two French bulldogs. So, you know, spending a lot of time with her doing our thing. What are the dog's names? So her, the dog she had prior to meeting me, his name is Hudson.

He's six. And then we consider him my dog, the puppy, but it's our dog. He's nine months old. His name's band, which is short for Bambo, which is a name that I always love because of Babe Ruth. And I tried to make it like a nickname of mine when I was wrestling. It didn't stick. But, yeah, Bam Bam, short for Bambeno. So, yeah, like I like the life I'm living, but, yeah, man, like I said, wrestling is my first love.

So ultimately, I want to get back to a big stage. Yeah. Because I have a lot of things that I didn't accomplish in wrestling that I want to accomplish. Yeah. You know, and I said before, like Enzo and I, we had a good run. We were very memorable. And I always want to be memorable. You know, being a champion, to me, isn't worth as much.

as being super memorable. People always say, well, you never won championships. Well, we were super memorable. Yeah. I want to be memorable as a singles star now. You know, that's something that I want. That's a goal of mine. And that's a goal that I want to prove to myself that I can do it, you know?

Yeah. Because there was a long time I didn't think I could anymore. And I do want to prove that. And, you know, also, you know, keep speaking out about my story and addiction and mental health and help others, man, because that's the. That's the goal in life that I've learned in recovery, man. I had, you know, I still do, but I had money and fame and all this stuff. And that don't amount to shit, man.

Don't mean anything. I get so much joy to helping one person. So that's the goal in life is to just help other people. Where has Enzo been these last few years for you? Oh, tremendous. I was staying with him in New Jersey for a while. He was, you know, a big part of getting me to finally go to rehab. Man, there's so many things I won't touch,

so many stories of where I was in a hotel room in this city or that city. You know, I never came home from the road. And, you know, he'd have to fly out to come get me and drive me back home. So he's been tremendous, man. And he's been super supportive of me getting back to wrestling, whether it's with him or not. He's like, brother, do your thing, man. Yeah.

I want to see you rise. And you don't have to get into it, but I'm sure that you've put him through a lot. For sure. I have put him through a lot, man. But he's been there every step of the way. So I have an undying loyalty to that human that I'm very happy to have, and I know I'm very blessed to have it because not many people ever experienced that kind of friendship.

Well, I mean, what you guys had together in the ring and also out of the ring, the friendship that you have. I mean, just looking at you guys today, it's like, man, you guys love each other. Yeah. It's special. And that doesn't come around very often. Right. So whether you're back as a singles competitor with Enzo rooting you on behind the

scenes or you guys are back as a tag team. You're back. Yeah, I am back. I'm ready to accomplish a whole great deal of things and become a world champion somewhere. And, you know, I guess my goal is to go somewhere and become top dog. Yeah. Be the top guy in that company. And that is my goal.

That's my professional goal right now. And I honestly, I do truly believe that I can do it. Well, AEW wasn't a thing when you were last signed with WWE. Yeah. It's now a thing. Yeah. What do you think about the chances of going to AEW? I would love to go to AEW.

I'd love to go back to WB, go to AEW, go to Impact, go to New Japan, Ring of Honor. Just naming every company. Yeah, whenever the time's right for me. The Gallas and Anderson had some really nice things to say about you. About you and possibly going to AEW. Yeah. And those conversations happen with them and other people. and it's something I would love to do.

And we've got to see when the timing's right. One day at a time is the way I take it. I don't want to look too far into the future and set a unrealistic goal. I have to be this or do that by a certain time. One day at a time. And if a phone call comes tonight, that's great. If it doesn't come for another three months,

four months a year, that's fine too. But I'm open to going anywhere to have fun and make a name for myself. Look, no one's perfect. Even the best baseball players strike out with the bases loaded. The best golfers, sometimes three-putt with the tournament on the line. So if you feel like you're coming up short in the bedroom, it's perfectly okay. But if it's bothering you, there are options.

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in all 50 states. So the special offer for anybody listening to Insight right now is 10% off your first month. Just go to BetterHelp.com slash Insight. That's Beller. BetterHelp-H-E-L-P.com slash insight. Even though you look great, you seem to be an incredible mental space now. Yeah, yeah. Do you worry that a promoter might look at you and go, man, this guy might be a liability? Yes, 100%. That's any job.

I do think that. And it's unfortunate, but it's also realistic. That's what the track record states. And like I said, you have to build up that trust with everybody. employers, family, friends. So I could see people looking at me and saying, wow, he's doing great, but he hasn't quite proven himself yet, or there is a liability.

Or they're going, how much longer until he relapses? Yes. And honestly, it's crazy you say that, but that is true. People do say that. The thing is... And I mean that with great respect. No, 100%. But for the first time in my life, I'm not lying.

I'm not living the part. I'm not wearing that mask. I know that I'm going to be all right. All I have to do is do the things that I do every single day to stay sober, and I'm going to stay sober. And those things are things I'm going to do every single day. I have too much life to live, too much stuff to experience and too many people to bond with them to not stay sober every day. But yeah, someone might think that. And it's unfortunate, but it is the reality of the situation.

Sure. Yeah. If we take this way back, who was William as a kid? William as a kid? Yeah. Okay. Honestly, super nervous, neurotic. Always worried, like, the worst was going to happen.

Were you a big kid? I was a big, but then I was a late bloomer. So I was the biggest or one of the biggest people in my class. And then when we got the high school and everybody sort of sprouting up, I was still left behind. So for a while there, I got, I was 5'8 my sophomore year of high school. Okay. So I got pretty tall. It is pretty tall, but compared to where I'm at now.

But yeah, I just, I've always kind of been or was, you know, because I do feel like I'm in a different place now for the first time in 33, 32, 32, 33 years. Super neurotic, worried about everything, worried what people think about me, worried about this going wrong, worried about that. And now it's my really don't worry about that stuff. That just takes so much energy out of me and put such a toll on my mental health that recovery has just helped me, you know, let a lot of that go. It just kind of takes a weight and it just comes off your back. Who did you want to be? Or what did you want to be?

A wrestler. I told people, again, the act, I told people I was going to be a doctor because I wanted to be a doctor. I told people that. And I went to college and was pre-med. and took the MCAT. But I was lying the whole time to everybody because I wanted to be a pro wrestler.

And that's proven the day after I graduated college at Yankee Stadium with NYU, it was in the new Yankee Stadium. It was pretty cool. Yeah, that's great. The day after that, I went to Johnny Rod's school and started training. The day after you graduated.

Yeah, walked into his office. And then how long after that until you made your debut? In wrestling? Yeah. Man, I might have done like a referee gig here. A big referee. Yeah.

Yeah, right. But my in-ring debut in terms of a match, it was probably the easiest match ever put together. But maybe a few months later. Because Johnny Rod saw something in me. And he thought maybe I had potential. And I guess he was right. But he put me in a match pretty quickly.

Well, you're seven feet tall. You can't teach that. That's right. You can't teach that. You cannot teach that. Yeah. So being a big guy after you did Bloom, did you look up to some of the other big men in wrestling?

Yeah. Like who? do. Undertaker. Kevin Nash, who I got to talk to yesterday, and always try to pick his brain. JBL, man, that's one that I always talk

that I, people don't talk about that much, but he was huge inspiration on me, especially when I got to FCW. He's just, he works, he's so, his work is just so solid. JBL is another guy, especially because he's fleet of foot, man, he can move.

Can. So for a big dude, he can move. And I feel like that's kind of what thought about myself at the at the time yeah yeah so what were some of your favorite matches growing up oh man uh the cleat i mean that austin and and brett hart russamia 13 at rosamont horizon great match that's a classic yeah um i'm gonna try and think of some obscure ones uh russamia 10 owen and brett um let's see i'm trying to think of uh i want to think of dude you know what match I really, this is when I was in high school. Ray Mysterio and Kurt Angle opening up SummerSlam 2.

I used to always watch that match. That's a great match. That's how you start a fucking pay-per-view, man. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's going to go watch that now. Dude, that was such an amazing match, man. Yeah.

Yeah. There's so many Austin matches, Mick Foley, Undertaker. Under, oh, Undertaker and John Michaels, Helen Acell at Bad Blood 97. That's amazing. And Undertaker and Brett Hart is something. SummerSlam that year. That's another one that I feel like isn't talked about another. That's a classic. That is a, man. All these are great matches.

So when you're coming into wrestling, most people want to come in and be a single star, which you were. Yeah. And then they pair you with Enzo. You guys create lightning in a bottle. But at first, were you like, what are they doing? I don't want to be the tag team. I want to do.

So when he came to his tryout in FCW, you know Enzo. Yeah. He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He could be loud and confident. and brash and but he cut a promo on his tryout that was incredible and I said

I hope they sign him because I want to do something with this guy. Yeah because at the time I was looking to do more New York kind of character and I said I hope they signed this guy and they ended up signing him lo and behold you know came into FCW one morning and it says like who's

going to start in the program the next week and Eric Martin was name and I was like yes so So when he got there, I immediately kind of buddyed up with him. And, yeah, from the first time I saw him cut a promo, I was like, I want to do something with that guy. Did he want to do something with you? I think so. I think because, yeah, we were homies, man.

Because, again, not everybody wants to be in a tag team. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I'm sure as a kid, you know, he didn't think about being in a tag team. Neither did I. But when I saw him, I wanted to be in the tag team with him. And I'd like to think that, you know, he wanted to be in a tag team with him. Well, I mean, again, you guys created lighting in a bottle. Yeah.

And it was, like, magical. Yeah. And then in NXT, you guys were, you were so over. It was a good time, man. Yeah. I think NXT was amazing for us. And I think the fact that we never won the titles worked to our advantage. Because I think the fans kind of felt like, oh, people behind the curtain are screwing us.

And they made them cheer even more. Yeah. So, like, yeah, I think the fact that we never won, really, in NXT. kind of got us even more over. But they always gave us time to cut promos. You know, the writing team at NXT would always be like, oh, you have three minutes to cut a promo before the match. That's all we wanted to.

It was like just a little bit of promo time to kind of get our stuff over, and it worked big time. How much of the opening promo that everybody knows, how much was that inspired by New Age Outlaws? A lot. We loved the New Age Outlaws formula, which was, you know, Road Dog hits... Bob, Pop, Bub, Bub.

And then Billy Gunn comes in at the end with the sucket. And yeah, that format was like, it worked in perfection for that. Yeah. So we're like, and Billy Gunn was one of our coaches. And Road Dog worked for WB and we got a chance to interact with him a lot. But yeah, the format was, I don't want to say stolen, but almost. But did they kind of give you their blessing? Like, this is a great idea.

Run with it. Man, I don't know if we ever got their blessing to use the format. Because I don't think at the time we realized that we were, but when I look back at our old stuff, Mienzo, and then if I watched like a 1998 new age outlaws match, I'm like, we kind of did the same exact thing. Yeah, walking to the ring, this guy's this guy, this guy's this guy. Yeah, and usually it goes, you know, Rodeug would get his ass beat and, you know, Billy would come in just start knocking people's heads off. And me and Eito did the same thing. Who actually scripted that famous promo?

Man, I think it came together of a course of a... So soft was the first thing that got over it with NXT. That was in a dark segment with John Sina. That's got to be on the network somewhere. But it was not even for television. It was me, Sandell, Enzo and Sina. And when we left the building that night, people kept yelling soft at me and Enzo.

Who were nobodies at this point? We hadn't even debuted on NXT. We were just guys that... We're working a dark match at the end of the night. Casina really liked Denzo's promo. People were just yelling soft at us and we're like, man, we might have something here. Yeah. And then, man, I can't remember exactly when the other pieces came together,

but the soft we knew was over or going to be over the second we left full sale that night. We're like, this good. Let's talk about the night when you guys debuted on the main roster. Yeah. Let's talk about that pop. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, we kind of figured we were going to get a really good reaction because of the, you know, the NXT crowd, you know, goes to the Raw The Night After Mania. Like, they're very well versed in all of WWB's product. And, yeah, I think a lot of the people that had been with us in NXT knew the reaction we're going to get. And I think some other people really didn't think that we're going to get that big of a reaction. Yeah. But me and Enzo knew. We knew like these people that come to Raw the night after WrestleMania are the people that watch NXT.

Yeah. And they're going to, they're going to, I think they thought like, it's been long enough. Come on, bring them up. So, and they left it for the end of the show too. So people might have been getting, getting angry at home, like or in the building. Like, they're really not going to debut these guys. Are they kidding? They don't have the win.

Now they're not going to debut them. So I think it was segment 13, finally. Wow. Massive, massive pop. If I go back and watch it now, it still gives me goosebumps. I got goosebumps. I was thinking about it. Yeah, man.

It was crazy. Did you guys think you'd be able to ride that wave of, I mean, the fans were so into you guys, both in NXT and the main roster? Yeah. Did you think you'd be able to ride that wave? I think we were just having fun on the wave. I don't think we ever thought this is going to last, you know, X amount of months or years. We were just like, what's the next town? Let's do it.

And we just, but the thing was, we worked so hard at our promos because we did, you know, give them the same schick, as people might want to call it, every night.

But the filler, we took a lot of pride in. And we'd get together in catering with our writer. And we would think all week about some clever lines and stuff. And I, I think that was,

we didn't just take that, like the New Age Outlaws. There was always filler that was kind of the stuff that was unique. to that night. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, we took a lot of pride in those promos. So, yeah, I don't think we thought it was going to last. We were just like, let's just keep busting our ass doing these promos, being creative, and we'll see what happens. So where did the idea for you guys to split up finally come around? I don't know. I just know, like, sometime in 2017 when they did the storyline with Enzo getting jumped. Originally, it wasn't supposed to be me. But then I don't, I don't know. I don't know what happened. And then they kind of just went one night, like the night we get, the day we got

to the building for the turn. Because me and Enzo thought it was either going to be this person or that group. And maybe it was the week before they told us that it was going to be you. Yeah. And were you like, uh, we were swerved. Like, I guess I'm a heel now. Yeah. I was kind of cool with it. It's like, I really want to be heel. And Enzo's a great baby face to work with. Sure. Because, you know, say what you want about is work, but he can take a hell of an ass kicking. Yeah, he makes it look like he's getting crushed out there. So it's like he's going to be great to work with people are going to feel so bad for him. Yeah.

Especially because I'm his best friend turn on him. So I was down for it, man. They do think that at that point, you guys would never be reunited later on? Eventually. Yeah. Somewhere down the road, I thought, you know, because it was so good. Take some time off. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, you know, not us taking time off, but the act and bring it back.

at a certain point in time, and here we go. Sure. Yeah. Now, when Enzo got released, how much did that affect anything that you had going on with your run or your push? None. I was injured. I was still rehabbing my ACL at that time. So I had been off TV for months at that point in time.

So when he got released, I didn't come back for another two months. So it didn't really affect anything with me. Because the last people saw it made before my injury was me and Enzo were not homies. Yeah. So they figured. My stomach is grumbled. Wow, that was so loud. We probably heard that.

My goodness. I haven't eaten this signing, signing, signing. Yeah, you're like coffee for lunch. Yeah, man. I needed it for the boost. Yeah, I didn't affect, I don't think that affected me at all. Because I came back and immediately put me in program with Brian. Right.

Yeah. I was surprised when you got let go. A lot of people were, but I did think it was justified. I was kind of a. It was a liability at that point in time. Sure. Talk about liabilities before. I was a huge liability, man.

Massive. They didn't know what I was going to do next. So they made the right call, man. Of course, in the moment, I was bitter as hell. Sure, of course. But, no, there's the right call, man. Like, I wasn't surprised. At least they did it in person, too.

Yeah, that was cool, man. I don't know what the reason was for that. It could have been a phone call. It could have been a phone call, but it was a meeting with Vince. They'd send you right to the, airport right after that? Yeah. So I met with Vince and it was a really good conversation. Yeah. Very productive and very focused on William and not Big Cass. Right. And yeah, and then they got me a flight home. I drove to the airport from there and wow. Yeah. Fly home. How crazy was the

G1 supercard to be part of? That was crazy. That was out of control because, man, nobody knew. So I couldn't quite get Enzo at the process. I said, there's eight guys in the match, okay? We're only going to be taking on two of them after the match. There's six other guys involved, very formidable wrestlers that don't know that this is, you know, happening. We might get our asses handed to us by fucking eight people at once, you know? Yeah.

And, uh, we'll be all right, man. As we were walking to the guard, I was like, I don't know, man. This could go horribly wrong. But yeah, that was super nervous. And then when we went out there and did it, it felt amazing while we were out there. Didn't you guys like sneak in a back door? Like nobody knew. No, there was, I don't know, six people in the world that knew.

Including you and Enzo. Yeah. So we got changed at a friend's office, a few blocks nearby. And we walked over to the building. And then we sent a text to personnel. X and they came down and got us and they put us in a room, like a small room in the back where nobody could see us. And then it was kind of helter-skelter too because it was like, you know the cue, make sure

you go out then. So we're sitting there with like kind of no supervision. So we had to watch the screen in the room and then we're like, that's it. And then we went. Were you like positive? Okay, that is it? Yeah. Because I was being neurotic.

And I made sure I asked like a hundred times. So this, this, this, start walking out of the room towards the arena floor. Yes. Do you feel like there was legit heat on you guys after that? I think there was legit heat. I think that there was shock value. For sure. The heat?

To be honest with you. I think came from just them not knowing the fans. I think a lot of times the fans like to be smartened up and like to think, I knew they were going to do that, but nobody fucking knew. So I think there was resentment from some fans at least that were like, they got us. They got us. Because no matter what anyone says now, 20,000 people in that building and I don't know how many people watching at home, not one person that was watching at that time thought, and Zoh and Kass are going to hop the guardrail.

No, of course not. Right. And then when you guys did do it and they cut away like this shouldn't be happening, everyone went, what is going on? It was a brilliant mind behind that. Not going to say who, but man, brilliant. Yeah. None of the, the boys were okay with this?

No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I think we did get a lot of heat with the boys, but I do think that the heat kind of transferred off of us towards, you know, people in charge because I think Tom Otanga might have done an interview recently where he's like, you know, they were doing, yeah, they were doing what they were told, man. Like, I can't put heat on them. Like maybe we do still have heat for that, but he's right.

Like, we were just doing what we were told to do. I think Tomatanga and Enzo, because they've talked so much at each other, they should probably have a match. Probably. Yeah. Where can we book it? Anywhere. Yeah. Like, everyone would want to see that match.

Yeah, that'd be great. Like, people legitimately think they don't like each other. So, let's make it happen. Do they? I don't know. Do they? I... All right.

I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, Tomatong is hard.

to read. Yeah, he is hard to read. He's a really nice guy, but at the same time, like, when he's in the ring. Yeah, man. Yeah. He makes you think what he's doing is he believes it. That's, I think that's the intangible for wrestling is when a performer can make the people watching believe that they believe what they're doing is real. That was two years ago, almost to the day.

April 6th of 2000. Yeah. Almost to the day. Wow. Yeah. Lots happened for you in those two years. Ups and downs, mostly downs, man. You're way up now.

Now I'm on the rise, man. No, you're way up. Yeah. You are. I'm all the way up. Are you looking to take more bookings? Is that the plan right now? So you're open for bookings?

Taking as many as possible, yeah. So people want to book you. How do they do that? Go to my Twitter page and there's an email there for my really, really good friend, Doug Lawson. It says four bookings, email him. Okay. Yeah.

And he handles everything. He knows all my dates. So, like, I've had people here ask me, are you free? I'm like, you have to talk, Doug, because I gave him the green light. I told him, I gave him dates. I said, this is a wedding. This is the rehearsal, whatever. I said, anything else, book it up.

And he said, you want me just book? Anything that sounds good? I said, yeah. So there's things that I don't even know what days I'm working. I just told them as much as possible. That's really good. Yeah, I want to get out there. And you were saying to me yesterday, you're in even better shape than those photos that we

saw. Yeah. because after that, I just continued on the path I was on. So it just kept getting leaner and stronger. And I think, yeah, I'm in better. I think I'm in weight better shape than I was in those pictures. So what's a day look like for you right now, eating and with workouts? So I wake up, the first thing I'll do is coffee, empty stomach, immediately do cardio,

which is usually interval training, which is inclined sprints or usually inclined sprints or the The Rowe machine is my cardio. I'll do that for a half hour. Come back, shower, relax, maybe eat a little something. And then later on in the day, you know, handle errands and stuff like that and hang out and handle work stuff and phone calls. Handle the dogs. Handle the dogs.

Bamams a lot of work, man. And then later in the day, go to the gym, which is usually I go to MI40 here in Tampa, which is a bodybuilding gym owned by Ben Pekulski's, you know, really great dude. He owns the gym. So what kind of split are you on? in terms of body parts and what you're hitting every day or every week. Man, so I only do legs once a week, especially because I'm working on weekends, and I don't want to mess my knees up.

And I'm doing like sprints. So once a week, I'll lift legs. Okay. And then every other day will be a push or a poll day. And lately, because I want to have another show in Texas coming up in two weeks from today, I want to look like bulk, but really kind of, I don't know. I have a look that I don't. going for. And I know that when I do 10 by 10, like German volume training for a few weeks,

I look like that. So I'm doing 10 by 10 on every exercise now, which is only like two exercises a day because 10 sets, 10 reps? 10 sets, 10 reps. So I'll do like 10 sets, 10 reps of bench and then 10 reps, 10 sets 10 reps of incline dumbbell bench. And that's chest. And then I leave. No, that's the push. That's the whole push day. After that's a guest. I would imagine that's a lot. And then back's a different thing. But every time I work out, I'll do a different exercise for the push or the pull. 10 by 10. So 20, yeah, I'm doing 20 by 10 is my workout pretty much right now. You've got this great shirt that you're selling now that says straight at a step 12. That's right. I love it. Yeah. And the proceeds are going to a great cause.

The Heron Project. So it's a nonprofit organization, specializing in recovery from addiction. And they award scholarships for, you know, for rehab, His rehab's super expensive. Insurance sometimes doesn't want to cover it. Sober living, coaches through the recovery process. And it's founded by Chris Herron. He had the 30 for 30 unguarded about him on ESPN. And yeah, I was looking for a very good nonprofit that specializes in the addiction field.

And every time I watch that guy's 30 for 30, it just gets me super emotional. And I saw that he, what he was doing. And it was exactly what I want because I can't tell you how many times when I was in rehab or around people from recovery where someone can't go an extra month and sober living because insurance won't handle it or because they don't have enough money. And in that 30 days, extra, that might be when something clicks for them. That's unfortunate because they can't be there. So they award scholarships to people to do that and to go back to rehab or go into rehab the first time.

It's amazing, amazing organization. So if someone wants to grab one of these shirts, where can they find a collar and elbow brand.com. You buy them there. I was wearing one earlier. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. That website will have the V-Kaz Excel shirt, which is a straight-ass step 12. Yeah.

And all the proceeds go to the Heron Project. I'm just, your feet are gigantic, by the way. They're not on camera here. How big are your feet? Size 16. Oh, that's it. Yeah. 16.

Yeah, but not to mention, these are great kicks. You should probably just kick your foot up there for a second. See that? There it is. Yeah. Varsity, Carolina, blue, threes. Matches your shirt. Yeah.

I did that on purpose. I got some sort. style. You got some style. A little bit. Come on. Yeah. And the hat matches too. So Top to bottom here. Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Did we cover everything? How are you? This is not about me. Yeah. We covered everything. How are you? I'm doing great, man. You are doing great. I'll talk forever. But yeah, we covered everything. Really proud of you, man. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. And I know everybody is really proud of you.

Appreciate that. And you know what's a new feeling, which is great, is I could say that about myself. because for a long time, I'd say I was proud of myself. And I didn't know what the hell that even meant. When I debuted, I was, yeah, I'm really proud of myself. I don't know what that means until the past year. Being proud of yourself means. Yeah. Thank you very much.

I end every interview talking about gratitude, because gratitude is such a huge thing. Massive. I say, if you can be grateful, you can live a great life. So what are three things in your life that you're grateful for right now? My girlfriend, Lexi, Tampa Bay, and the wrestling business. There it is.

Yeah. Thank you, brother. Thank you, man. This is great. Yeah, it was. Really appreciate it. I appreciate you. Thank you, man.

Oh, wow. What a conversation. You want to talk about insight. So much insight there. I think that one will definitely be in my top five interviews at the end of the year. I'm just so grateful for how open and honest and honest and, you know, And raw he was there. And it's so amazing to see how far he's come over the last year and a half.

Can't wait to see what's next for him. Man, he looks like a million bucks. It's just a matter of time before we see him back on TV. And if I had to guess, this is just a guess. But I would think we see him back on TV before the year's over. Take a screenshot. Let us know what stood out for you the most from this conversation. Tag me at Chris Van Fleet.

Tag Cass. He's at the Kaz. Excel. And as Vince Lombardi famously said, the real glory is being knocked to your knees and then coming back. That's real glory. That's the essence of it. Be great. Be grateful, my friends. We will see you on the next one for some more insight. Have a great weekend. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why? Because I have a job to do with rapid fire takes. So I don't want to hear from you lava pigs on this notion today. No idea what you're talking about.

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