Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Billy Corgan On Balancing A Pro Wrestling Company And The Smashing Pumpkins

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

Billy Corgan (@billycorgan) is the lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins and also the owner and promoter of the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA). He joins Chris Van Vliet to talk about the upcoming NWA 74 event in St. Louis, how wrestling is both similar and different to the wrestling industry, his thoughts on whether NWA can compete with WWE and AEW, what he learning from his time working at IMPACT Wrestling, being referenced on Family Guy and much more! For more information about Chris Van Vliet and INSIGHT go to: https://podcast.chrisvanvliet.com If you enjoyed this episode, could I ask you to please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcast/iTunes? It takes less than a minute and makes a huge difference in helping to spread the word about the show and also to convince some hard-to-get guests. Follow CVV on social media:  Instagram: instagram.com/ChrisVanVliet Twitter: twitter.com/ChrisVanVliet Facebook: facebook.com/ChrisVanVliet YouTube: youtube.com/ChrisVanVliet TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet CVV CLIPS: youtube.com/CVVCLIPS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blin! Oh, it is so good to see you, my friends. Welcome back to another audio adventure here on Insight. I am CVV, Chris Van Fleet. So good to have you with us and so good to have Billy Corrigan back with us on the show. It's been almost three years since we sat down together for our last interviews. So there's a lot of catching up to do, both with the Smashing Pumpkins and the National

wrestling alliance, especially as they gear up for NWA 74, a two-night event, August 27th and 28th in St. Louis. And if you haven't really been keeping up with the NWA, when this episode's done, hop on their YouTube channel, check out a couple of their last episodes, and you'll be like, oh, man, it's going to get you so pumped up for NWA 74. If you haven't yet, please leave a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple Podcasts if you're listening on either of those. And Take a screenshot. Share this with a friend of yours who loves the smashing pumpkins and tag us on social media so we can share it. On Twitter, Billy is simply at Billy.

Isn't that amazing? That must have been so difficult to get at Billy. On Instagram, you can find him at Billy Corgan. You can find me at Chris Van Vleet. And please welcome the legend himself. Billy Corgan. So good to see you again, Billy. Thank you for taking the time.

Thank you, Chris. Nice to see you. it's so interesting to me that when I mentioned to people that I'm interviewing Billy Corrigan, they're like, oh my gosh, pumpkins, that's amazing. And I feel like every single day new people are realizing that, no, Billy Corgan does in fact own a wrestling company. You own the NWA. Yes, this is not a dream.

I actually do own the National Wrestling Alliance. And, you know, it's been a great commitment and a great honor. But, you know, I feel just now, probably now in the four and a half year mark or five year mark that it's finally kind of going the way I wanted to. So I feel pretty good about it. Oh, in what way? Like, what is going your way now? I think it takes time to build culture. The easiest analogy you can make, and analogies never work, but I'll make it because it's early. You know, you can try to buy your way to a World Series or you can build a culture and a system. And I chose to not try to buy my way to the World Series, but try to build the system. And I think now you start

to see the system that I've built the consistency in the talent, the consistency in the narrative, the consistency and the ability to put on a show and have high quality pay-per-view every time we go out there. I think that took time and it required a lot of patience. And having been through kind of a brand build with the smashing pumpkins on the music side, I sort of know what that feels like and I know what victory looks like and I know what fake victory looks like. And so I've been very focused on actually building something that will last and endure past me. If we were to make a Venn diagram, how much overlap do you think there is between smashing pumpkin fans and wrestling fans? Where are they in the middle there? Very few. Very few. I wish a few people, not to disparage

your question, but a few other people have asked a similar question. And trust me, I wish 100,000 and Smashing Pumpkins fans would come over and want to see the National Wrestling Alliance. It would make my job a lot easier. It would certainly enthuse the talent. It just doesn't translate that way. So it is what it is. It does help when you're dealing with media. It does help when you're dealing with the corporate side of things.

I walk the noon meeting, even if they don't know the NWA, they know me. So that sort of opens certain doors. But the job of building and rebuilding the National Wrestling Alliance is sort of, if you can have to stand in its own two feet. And I'm proud of that in a weird kind of way. I mean, like I said, I wish it was easier, but knowing it isn't easier, I'm proud that we've been able to build something as a team that has an endurance and isn't really sort of a culture personality built around me. I'm very proud of that. It certainly feels like there are two different worlds, but I imagine there is something that's like similar. What is similar between the world of

music and the world of wrestling? I do think that the changes in the way social media creates fandom and support for business, that's become very similar. In essence, I call it the hot house effect. If 100,000 people are interested in something, probably only about 20% of those people and or 20,000 would be paying attention on a daily level. So what you want to do is you want to take those 20,000. continually market to the other 80,000.

And hopefully then if you get everybody engaged, then they'll market to a wider audience. That is very similar now dynamically between music and wrestling. It's about what's happening day to day. I started making these arguments 20 years ago in music and it fell on completely deaf ears. Real quick, because I don't like to overly talk about the music business in this context, but 20 years ago, it was about doing a big buildup to an album. You released the album. you put out a couple of videos and you kind of go away.

And I started making the argument 20 years ago, no, you almost have to be constant, but it's a different kind of constant. So a different kind of constant in entertainment these days, and I'll include wrestling, and that would be, here's a bit of news, here's a piece of merchandise, hey, we're having a show. Oh my God, we did this cool thing with the charity. Check it out. We're so happy to be part of this.

It's sort of like there's got to be kind of a rhythm. In essence, the brand almost takes on the role of a personality. and behind that personality, you feel there's sort of an up and a down and a positive and a negative, but the negative isn't always negative in the literal sense. The negative can be,

you go away, you come back, you do this, you do this other thing, you surprise people. It's just so different than it used to be. When you talk about surprising people, what do you think the biggest surprise for fans has been in the NWA? I think probably that

those who underestimated what I was doing and why I was doing it, I think those people are probably surprised at this point. That there sort of became a thing and it sort of congealed a bit during when we shut down during the pandemic. Kind of like, oh, yeah, the NWA cool that it's back. Even people who I like, like Eric Fischoff came out and said he probably shouldn't have brought it back.

Oh, it's going to go away. Oh, it's just kind of a thing. It was a hobby. It's a throwback thing. It's not really going to compete in the modern world. Here we are a few years later. We're competing in the modern world. I'm talking to networks.

I'm talking to all sorts of people constantly. We're able to run world-class, you know, wrestling events that, certainly on a talent level, are competitive at the highest levels. So I think that sort of surprises people. It's weird, and I've gone through it again in music, where I'll say something, and I think because I say it, people go, okay, he's saying something that's true.

Entertainment is very much about kind of like, Yeah, yeah, but show it to me, prove it to me. So a lot of things I said that were quite honest and true. People just didn't believe me because I think they just thought I was talking about. Well, I mean, when we had our last conversation, which was almost three years ago, which is, you know, crazy right before the world shut down. I've kind of gone like this and you've gone like this, right? That is not.

I feel like I'm in your shadow now. I was doing a favor for a young guy and now you've blown up. Yeah, that is very kind of you to say, but not even remotely true. but you were saying at the time then that you know you want to be in the same conversation as WW and AEW obviously you know you had to hit pause because of everything that was going on in the world do you feel like you're still now in that conversation yeah and it's proportional you know look I'm not running four to five hours of content a week I'm running an hour to hour and a half you have to look at things sort of to scale so if you look at it from the perspective of what the

major companies spend and the oxygen that they get for media versus what I spend and the oxygen I get for media, you can see that I'm actually outpacing my costs. So we're actually sort of ahead of the curve as opposed to behind the curve. It gets frustrating when you feel like you're behind the curve, but now I feel like we're ahead of the curve. So for example, I was recently talking to somebody who's actually in the television business. They looked at all my numbers. They looked at my expenses and stuff like that. And I said, how the hell are you doing what you're doing? How are you producing over an hour, hundred hours of television a year at these numbers with this level of quality. And I said,

it's culture. It's building a team. It's finding the right talent. It's creating an atmosphere where talent feels they can take chances. And if they sort of go off the beaten path for a second, so he's not going to come with the club and sort of knock them out of their loop. That takes time. Again, same thing. It can come out of my mouth, but people don't necessarily believe you. And I do deal with a lot of people on the wrestling side that have had promises made to them and the rug kind of pulled out from under them. So it takes them time to believe that the NWA is a safe place to work both physically, but also sort of, let's call it emotionally, which is not a word you throw on a lot in wrestling.

But, you know, these are, you know, high strong, talented people who want to feel that their efforts in the gym, their efforts, you know, in the public are going to be rewarded. I saw recently, I can't remember who it was, but it was a high-level talent for the NWA, saying how much they love the freedom of the NWA. it's such a fantastic place to work. That takes time to build something like that, where a talent feels they can go out and say something like that, and it makes sense to people.

It's sort of like they're not taking some sort of weird chance or that's going to be accused of defending me when I don't need to be defended or something like that. So it feels really good on that. I just feel like there's this underlying with talent. There's this underlying thing in wrestling where like you just take everything with a grain of salt. You're like, I know that they said this was going to happen,

but I don't expect that to happen. It certainly seems like the case. with what you're doing and the NWA that you're delivering on these promises. Well, I'm sure not everybody would agree, but I think, again, it's sort of like, what are you offering people? For example, we've done a good job of taking talents that were undervalued, putting in them in a position, we realized, oh, wait, there's actually a lot more in this talent than anybody would have realized. In some cases, people came along and wanted to poach them up and give them jobs, which is fantastic. I mean, that's just a credit to what the talent did and what we were able to do together.

In other cases, we've had talents that were completely disregarded in major companies, basically told, you've got nothing left in the tank. And here they are years later with the NWA, you know, main event and pay per views. So, you know, that's part of what we've been able to do. And as you sort of put those pieces together, let's call it veteran talent and young talent that's overlooked. You start to build a culture where now maybe under the right set of circumstances, and that will be happening relatively soon. We can start to become competitive in the free agent market.

Are you hoping is the plan to have a weekly television program? Well, not to correct you, but we already do have a weekly television program. On TV, I mean. But it is on TV. It's just different TV. No, I think, look, I don't think anybody would argue if a major digital platform came along and gave me a bunch of money and say that wasn't TV. I think we're still in this weird schism of like, well, is YouTube TV, is Fight TV, is Peacock TV, is, is NBC, you know, network television team. It's sliding scale.

I think everything has to do with economics and reach. So the great thing about the YouTube model in particular is you can reach everybody. The hard thing about the YouTube model is you never know when you're dealing with their AI systems, what's being recommended. You can have one video that'll go crazy and you think, oh, everything's going along great. The next week, it'll do one-tenth of numbers and it has nothing to do with anything you did or didn't do. It's just weird how their AI works. what's frustrating is this is hard sometimes to get a real read um look access marketing and economics always go together so um we're still in a medium where you know the economics are purely my own

i'm sort of driving it on my own vision but of course i want partners the reason i've been resistant to this point is no one's made me an offer where either i want to give up equity in the company or give up control in the company on some levels to go into business with somebody else so but we're right on the edge now where i'm starting to have those conversations where real enough numbers are being thrown around and real interest is being thrown around. And I also think it does in a strange way has to do with the weird and, you know, beautiful uprise, re-uprise in the pumpkins in my own sort of side. You know, these things in entertainment are cyclical and the pumpkins are probably having the biggest period we've had in 20 years. We're about to do another arena tour

this fall. So those things do kind of go together because, again, when I go into a board room and they talk about, okay, what's your vision, what's your numbers, what are you doing? And then they see that I'm headlining Madison Square Guard. It doesn't hurt. Those pieces do start to get put together. It'd be great if, like we talked about earlier, it'd be great if some of that could rub off to the NWA. I beg, I've pleaded, I've cajoled.

It just doesn't translate. I think the nicest compliment I get from fans, Pumpkins fans, are, or is, hey, wrestling's not for me. I'm not a fan, but I checked it out because you and I really enjoyed it. And I recommend it to somebody who is a wrestling fan, and then now they're into it. So you see, there is sort of a causal effect there that does work itself out. And the other right spot, I think, is where five years ago,

when I was doing things in wrestling or even seven years ago, fans treated it this like that, gee, can't you just stick to music? And I wish you just sort of focus on music. Now I don't get that at all anymore. People are very respectful of the idea that I could have two lives, and they see my commitment to music. I mean, we're just about to put out a 33-song record. So no one can accuse me of not being committed to music

and continually touring. Plus, I have small children. So it is really a sacrifice on my family to have such a robust music here and be full-time in the NWA. And I think now that fans have really seen that over time, they sort of respect, okay, that's his deal. And I don't have to sort of be negative.

So at least, let's call it a positive sort of apathy. Like, I'm not really into it, but it's kind of cool that he's doing it. So I do think that does have a little bit of a halo effect in how it rubs off. What does your time management look like between the I'm going to call it three jobs

because it's music, it's wrestling, and it's being a father. You forget, I also have a tea house cafe here in Highland Park, Illinois. So it's technically four jobs.

But I'm probably, in terms of my business is about 140 hours a week of work. Yeah. When do you sleep? I don't. That's the thing.

Is the world a vampire or are you a vampire? I think it's a bit of both. Yeah. What's the math on that? If I'm 140 hours a week, that's how many, that's how many hours a day, right?

I got a 140 hours a week. I'm probably exaggerating a minute. 20 hours a day. It's probably 100. It's 168 hours in a week. Okay, I'm a wrestling promoter. I am exaggerating.

It's probably 120 hours a week. It is nonstop. So what does the balance look like and how are you able to put the smashing pumpkins on hold while you're doing this right now with me? It's just like you get into, a workflow where it's like you just switch brains like like as i'm talking to you i guess got a text message from somebody in the nbua right it's like as soon as i get off the phone with you here it'll

be right to texting about stuff involving you know the upcoming shows in st. Louis for the 74th anniversary shows it's just constant it's constant it's just it's the only way i can explain it's just constant is there a moment ever where you're on stage in the middle of playing like 1979 and you're like oh you know what i should probably do this with tyrus in the nbA absolutely really Yeah, it's not to denigrate my job in any way, but if you've played long enough, you have the ability to kind of think about other things while you're playing. I used to joke and say, you know, get to the point where you can think about your taxes. But yeah, I'll definitely be sitting there thinking about like, oh, hey, that's the, like Madison Square Garden.

You play Madison Square. And as you're playing, you're like, oh, that's the entrance where Hulk and Superstar used to walk through in San Martino. Like, it's, oh, it's right there. That's pretty cool. And they're like, okay, the ring would have been there. me when I'm playing the song, you know what I mean? Like the songs still back. So.

Does the reverse happen when you're, you know, booking wrestling? You're in the control room. And then you're like, you know what? That'd be a great thing to do on tour. No, no. When I'm in wrestling, I'm pretty much all in wrestling. There's just no time to think. As you know, because you've been backstage at a wrestling show.

It's just like a nonstop. Oh, hey, can I talk to you for a second? Hey, I don't like this finish. But, blah, blah, you know. So. Yeah, you're being pulled in a, a lot of different directions. And I would think that one of the most difficult things about your job at the NWA is dealing with talent and telling people, you're going to win this way,

you're going to lose this way, or even worse, maybe we're not going to work with you anymore. There hasn't been a lot of that, honestly. I think I'm blessed in that. I worked on the Indies for long enough to sort of start to understand that mentality, what was important to a professional wrestler and why. Then I worked at T&A not only in booking, but also as a producer. So I got to sort of see intimately how people translated their characters through the screen and then how it portrayed itself in the wrestling ring. And as you work from independent talent to higher level talent at TNA, you saw the difference like, this is important and this does matter and this will draw money, and this isn't as important. And so I think when you have those experiences and then you have a

company like the NWA where it is sort of my world. I have a different sense of it. It's not like I just bought the NWA and I had no experience in wrestling. I'd sort of been working in it long enough that I sort of can appreciate, you know, why I once had a conversation with somebody who's now a, you know, a main event, WWE talent. They were in TNA at the time. And they didn't like a finish on something. And I had to go in a trailer, which they sent these trailers at University of reversal, you know, like side trailers and talk to this talent for 45 minutes about why they, quote, didn't want to carry the other talent for 45 minutes. And so it became this long dissertation on their character versus the character I needed to be put over. And those discussions

are really valuable in the long term because, you know, in going back to myself for a second, I get offers all the time. In fact, I got a strange offer yesterday. Somebody wanted me to come play like a private party. Somebody who would. was booked to play the party, got COVID. And so it was a last second thing. They kind of reached out to me. It's local, hey, can you come do this thing? And it's for a decent amount of money.

And I'm talent half the time. So I'm sitting in thinking, is this worth it, my time, the thing, blah, bye, bye, call somebody on the phone. So because I've been talent, too, when I have those conversations and I'm seeing talent be talent, I know what it feels like to be them.

And you're trying to say, look, I think I'm more valuable here than you're giving me credit for. And I think the conversations generally break down along the lines of reassuring or explain to the talent how you perceive their value as a regards to the NWA. There are talents who are super valuable on the Indies that aren't as valuable to the NWA. There are talents who are super valuable to the NWA that aren't that valuable on the Indies.

So it's important for me also to communicate to those talents. Hey, look, for me, I can only speak for me. This is your value here. This is where I see this going. If it doesn't work for you, that's cool. let's just shake hands and not do business. And honestly, there's been very little parting along those lines. So that tells me I have a good sense, generally speaking. And a lot of credit goes to Pat Kenny, who runs talent relations. Because, of course, he has to deal with it sort of on a day-to-day level. And he's done a great job of sort of explaining talent, what the culture is in the NWA

and giving them the option. Look, here's option A, here's option B. Option C has come back another time when maybe there's a different fit. And again, very few talents have left under Option C for lack of a better job. Are you going to play that show? No. If I told you how much money was for, you'd probably yell at me. I would. I'm sure I would. Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, and it's always so interesting talking to you because I know what you meant to me and I know what the smashing pumpkins meant to me as I was, you know, a teenager. It was a soundtrack of my youth.

You only look like you're 19 years old. So what are we talking about here. It's just great lighting. That's what it is. Great lighting. You got to send me that light because I need it to. I'll send you the Amazon link. Yeah, please, yeah. But it's just, you know, you were the soundtrack of my youth, and I'm sure that you hear this all the time when people are saying things like this to you. But I'm so curious, a song that you wrote 30 years ago,

does it still mean the same to you? Did those lyrics still mean the same to you when you play it now? It's sort of like it's like a fine wine or something. It sort of grows into something else. It's not what it once was, because you change, but then your perspective on the value of something changes. There are songs that I'll play in my current life, I have a hard time understanding the young man who wrote that song.

I know it's a good song, and I've certainly sort of been rewarded for it, but I have at times struggle to understand where that guy was coming for. But at the same time, I can sort of tangentially relate to like, well, here's where I was in my life. Here's what happened since. Here were the good times, the bad times. Life is very good right now with the young family and lots of success and lots of things. So, yeah, it's sort of just, it gets deeper and wider in sort of a different way.

But yeah, I think it's like saying, hey, go put on your, you know, your high school basketball uniform and do you feel the same the way you felt when you were on the playground at 17? It's just, it's just not the same. It's like asking, is the 10th love the same as the first love? No, but the 10th love has something different to it because you have a different level of appreciation. On the flip side of that, what about someone who goes, man, those lyrics, every single one of them, Billy, means so much to me. How interesting is that when it was your story, and it's your words that you're putting out there? It's always pretty humbling because, you know, I'm just sitting in a room talking to you, right?

You know, there's nobody in here. Most of my life is this situation, a hotel room, a bedroom, guitar. It's just me and the words in the music. So it's pretty wild sometimes when you think that something that happened in a room like this reaches somebody on the other side of the planet. And next thing you know, they're getting married to the song. You know, children are born to my music. I mean, people play my music when they lose a loved one.

I mean, it's very humbling. And at a time, it's hard to understand. The ego party wants to go, of course, you know. Of course it was me. Look, there's a billion gazillion songs in this world. Everything, I was trying to explain to my kids who are six and three what a CD is. Like, why? Because I was doing something with some CDs and my kids were like, why do you need a CD?

Because they only know the world on the phone. Sure. Hey, Mommy, play. Yeah, they love rock lobster by the B-52s. Mommy play rock lobster. There it is. That's the world that they know. So this idea that you got to carry around these boxes and the sea,

they explain, well, this is the way we used to listen to music. Yeah, things change, you know. And now that music is so accessible to so many people, the positive side is young people are finding my music like never before. Our numbers on TikTok are totally insane. It's wild. Suddenly there's tons of young people at our concerts, very, very humbling. At the same time, you're like, oh my God,

I'm competing against the whole world at all. times, you know what I mean? Including BTS, he's like, you know, one of the biggest pop bands ever. You know what I'm saying? It's like, yeah, yeah, the picture shifts. So on one hand, you're like, wow, this is cool because all these cool things that have happened now that wouldn't have happened before.

And shit, now there's all this other stuff I sort of have to navigate. It's pretty wild, but look, the best part is, and it's the NWA, right, going to its 75th year of continuous operation. You know, I'm still playing music. I'm still headlining, you know, festivals and arenas. It's a, it's a wild, cool ride.

I'm curious what the song people get married to is. Is it today? I've heard them all. And sometimes actually the song's kind of depressing and I'm like, okay, have a happy marriage. Don't blame me when it doesn't work. Yeah, I don't know. I've heard them all. I've heard them all. I remember it being like a really big news story when you decided to shave your head. And I'm so curious, it was, right? What was the actual process? That's the stupid part of my life. That's the stupid part of my life, right? What do you mean? Well, you make headlines for stuff that doesn't mean anything, right? Yeah. Like me at Disneyland looking sad, you know what I mean? You just go, that went all over the place. Yeah, it was on the family guy, of all places.

Yeah, I don't know. That's the stupid part of it all. It's like, I don't get that either. either, but I'll take, I'll take, you know, the father, daughter dance, you know, to 33 or something. You know, I mean, I'll take that all day. The other stuff I can live with out. What, was there a lot of thought that went into, you know, I've had long hair for a long time. I'm going to shave it. And no, I just didn't like the way my hair was looking. And I was just like, woke up one day. And that was it. I just shaved my head. And then you get weird compliments when you shave your head. Like, you know, the shape of your head is so nice. You have such a nicely shaped head. Like, okay, thanks. You know what?

I mean, it's like, you have nice thighs, you know, it's like, what do you do with those types of compliments? You go, oh, gee, thanks. I don't know. I remember Weird Al did like his takeover of MTV and he was playing the 1979 music video and he was like, hey, Mr. Shine Your Head for a court. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't even think about it. Yeah, well, let me tell you something about Weird Al. He had to call me once to ask my permission to use one of my songs. So I got him back on that level. What's the thing that you're most proud of in the time that you've the NWA? I just think that we're still here. It's it's it's look I wish and goes back to the conversation about Pumpkins fans right I wish magic right you turn put the key in you turn

the car on the NWA it's back here we go and everybody goes fantastic and suddenly just tens of thousands of people want to watch and tens of thousand people care and Pumpkins fans are like yeah I'm really interesting now I wish it was all magical it's really really really difficult. It's really hard. It's a complicated market, as you know. There's never been more independent talent, and in a way, independent talent has never been more valued than this particular market. So it's a lot to navigate. So the fact that we're still here, we're still running, we're doing a two-night pay-per-view, you know, coming out of a pandemic. We're working at the chase, which hasn't allowed any wrestling in, but the NWA, which is a miracle in itself. There's just

so much cool stuff. And I just, I'm proud of that. I just think that's the best part. Secondarily, the quality level, the consistency, the actual raising of the stakes, putting talent in higher and higher pressure situations, which they should be as talent. I want to be in high pressure situations as the NWA comes up. So it comes up the pressure. And we're seeing who's, you know, who's going to be the next star or the NWA. That's just all the best part of it. What did it mean for you to be able to give Matt Cardona his first major championship? You know what? I didn't really think about it that way until it happened. And I heard him talking about it. And I was like, gee, because in my mind, he was a star. So I'm not a person who necessarily correlates championships to start him. But obviously, that's usually the way it goes. There's no question that in his previous life before he became Matt Cardona, he was certainly undervalued. And he was a guy who continually got over no matter what was put in front of him.

I was certainly a fan and impressed by what he was able to do with seemingly not a lot. And there have been people. In fact, I work with them. Aaron Stevens comes to mind where they were in a particular situation. And no matter what they were given, they were able to get over because they're just super talented people. So it was not a question in my mind of putting a belt on map. But having put the belt on map, I think what really distinguishes is not only has he done a great job, not only has he brought a new audience to the NWA that maybe wouldn't have necessarily been interested in the programming,

but in his probably his darkest hour with us when he was injured, and here's a pay-per-view named in his honor, and he's facing, you know, probably a five to six-month rehab. And the freak that he is, he's already pretty much rehabbed in three and a half months or whatever it is. The day he has the surgery, he holds up to 10 pounds of gold, cuts a promo and says, I will be at the pay-per-view. And he comes when he doesn't have to come. And I thanked him. I pulled him aside and said, look, I really have to thank you for what you did.

And he says, well, that's not a big deal. It's sort of what I do. I'm here and I'm committed and I like being here. That to me is why he's a champion. Yes, he's a champion because he's a star. Yes, he's a champion because he's a draw. Yes, he's a champion because he's a top-level professional wrestler. But to me, he's a champion because he's a great person.

to work with. He represents the company on every level, behind the scenes and in front of the camera and to the public. So even somebody yesterday asked me, you know, how did you feel when he got hurt on somebody else's show? And I was like, well, that's his life. I mean, I support that. And by extension, I support the other efforts of other independent companies, including game changer. Why would I, like what I don't want Matt Cardona to be on the show? And that's that, it wasn't, I didn't take the question wrong, but it's, it was weird to me because It's like Macrodone is an independent professional wrestler in an era where he should be an independent professional wrestler. And unless I'm willing to come in and, you know, break the bank to sign him to an exclusive contract,

he should go out and do exactly what's best for him in Chelsea. So, yeah, no problem. I mean, that's just the breaks, you know. When you said earlier that you'd like to be in the market where you're getting free agent talent, is that the hope to get people to sign with the NWA and lock them into a long-term deal? We'll get there. It just it doesn't work economically for us in those cases. There are cases where we do have talent under contract and it is important that those talents are under contract. But overall, like, you know, the minute somebody comes out of WWE, okay, well, the chances are you're probably not going to out bid the other people in the market who are interested. So those talent are not necessarily calling me to ask whether I want to pay and I'm not necessarily calling them to try to compete with somebody who's got more resources than I do and obviously bigger. platform. I don't see that as competitive in that sense. I think qualitatively it's competitive, but I'm not competitive on the free agent market at this time. I think when we're able to get a

bigger platform and get more resources, then hopefully we'll start getting those calls. And it is what it is. Look, I've referred to it through a few times through the years. People used to ask Bill Belichick probably built the Patriots and the perennial, you know, Super Bowl contender. And he said, look, we have one superstar. And everybody, else we rate as an A minus player. So in our eyes, we're getting a player who's just a tick below a superstar at a value that's very valuable to the Patriots and if we can build a culture here, that we can consistently win, as long as we have that one star and a great supporting cast.

In the NWA, I'd argue right now we probably have six stars maybe and a great supporting cast who are overproving their value, which is why the quality of the product is so high at this time. imagine a situation where now I'm able to have, let's say, 10, 12 people under contract be competitive in the free agent market. Then I think you'd see the product, the quality level and everything associated with the NWA go up like a rocket. But I'm not in a position to blow that money right now because I just don't think we would get it back.

Do you feel like the wrestling landscape has changed a lot over the last, say, I mean, it's changed a lot over the last handful of years, but over the last month with Triple H now in charge in WWA? I'm looking forward to seeing what he does. Somebody asked me, you know, if I saw the changes. And I said, I don't think you don't turn a battleship around quickly. You know, that's a big, big institutional culture with a lot of moving pieces. So it strikes me as somebody who runs a big organization in the Smashing Pumpkins world,

that you don't sort of just start flipping switches and just see what happens. You're going to poke around and, of course, put your people in place and stuff like that. I think we'll know in about 18 to 24 months what the real vision under Triple H isn't in the difference of the product. I do know that, well, it's a speculation. So I'm going to say that. I'm speculating. I do know that as AW has gone out of their way to sort of try to pick fights with the WW world and overall the WW world is not responded. I don't necessarily think that's going to continue under Triple H.

I just don't feel he's the type of personality. that's going to sit there and have people kind of sock them in the chops over and over again, and he's not going to respond. I mean, he was in Degeneration X, you know what I mean? And I think he was a big part of that sort of SaaS that they had. And I think there's business there as well. You know, at some point it's like it's, you know, it's blow for blow. It's competitive. Now, the general position, of course, I think from WB corporately, at least from what I see from a public observation, when he was, is they've sort of treated it like we're not going to sweat it publicly, even if we're sweating it a little bit privately.

I think those dynamics are definitely changing. And we've talked about NWA, WWA, WWA, AEDW. Where does impact wrestling fall into this whole landscape, in your opinion? You know, I think what's really good is that Scott D'Moor wants to be part of this emerging ecosystem where impact can play with other companies. Obviously, they had a relationship with AEW, but now that seems to be opening up into other companies, including once again with the NWA.

I like where Scott's taking the company. I said it years ago, even though it was a bitter exit for me, I thought that Anthem was the right company to take over what was TNA and now impact. They've steadied the ship. They've created a consistent culture. And certainly they have a hardcore fan base that's very loyal to the product as they should be. It's an out of what, 20 year history. So I like that Scott's on the chess board along with myself and other companies. I think so far he's been a great faith partner as far as working.

And I think there's lots of stuff that we can do between. the NWA and impact, and I think there'll be a player for years to come. Look, there's plenty of room. You could blink 10 years from now and you could see a landscape where it will be WWA, A.E.W. Impact Wrestling, New Japan, AAA, and the NWA, and they'll all be important in the American market. I think that is completely conceivable and possible. WWE, even though they have this hegemonic position, they do not command all of the wrestling landscape. And I think that television networks and the advertisers are starting to say,

hey, there's a lot more money here than maybe we would have imagined since most of it was funnling in the WW's direction. And I think you see it in a quick analogy would be when McMahon's tried to start the XFL, whatever it was, 15, 20 years ago, and it didn't really work, and it was considered a disaster. and then he brought it back. Now the Rock's taking that over, and now you have the USFL. Now you realize in the current landscape for television, and I'm making funny if you were a television here,

but in the current landscape, you can see now where football will be 20 to 12 months a year. Yeah. And why wouldn't it be? It was weird before it was sort of like to a fan, and I was a fan of the NFL at the time. I only wanted to watch wrestling during those months, and I kind of wanted to get away from it.

Now, if you're a fan, And you think, well, shit, I want to see the up-and-coming players. I want to see the guy that got cut from the NFL and he proves himself that he's a star in the NFL. And then he goes back and becomes the starting quarterback for the Broncos. I think you see that's all going to open up now. I've been predicting for years that you're going to see a breakaway NBA league. There's so much money out of China.

There's so much money out of India. Are you telling me that a retired superstar, the level of LeBron James or Kevin Durant can't start their own breakaway basketball? league, when you look at the talent level between, I don't know how many guys are in the NBA, let's say there's 800 or 1,000. If you look at the talent level from the next 1,000 to 2,000, it's pretty close. Sure, yeah. So if you watch a competitive, let's see, alternate league basketball league, you're going to see a lot of

competitive stuff. So I think you're going to see breakaway leagues. I think you're going to see a complete explosion because the one thing that's been proven in the last 10 years, particularly the television, digital platforms included, is that live of that television programming is something that still continues to draw, which is where wrestling, hello, wrestling is perfect. And now they're taking those things seriously when I have those meetings. And I think that we could talk for hours about the landscape of television and how it's

changed so much, but live television is truly the most important thing because if you want to watch a television show, you're watching that on Hulu or Netflix or HBO Max or Peacock or whatever. The thing that's commanding your appointment viewing is the MBA, the NHL. is pro wrestling when it's live and it's happening in this exact moment. Right. So let's go back to the thing we were just talking about. Let's say the NWA finds itself in a situation where we're running every other week,

live tape, live tape. Okay, now you're in a competitive situation. Now you're drawing more people. Now you look at a free agent market. Somebody might want to come to you who feels like in another system they won't get a chance where the NWA will feature their talents where in another system they would be sitting on the bench. So that's where we start to be competitive, and that's not far from where we're standing right now.

What do you think is the biggest thing you learned from your time in TNA that you're now ticking with you in your pocket in the NWA? Probably how to shoot. I hated. I was probably the biggest complainer when I was in TNA of how much we had to shoot put in the can due to spoilers and all that type of stuff. I hated how we'd have to shoot three months of television and all that type of stuff. Now I get it. Now that I'm in the position that Dixie was in where you had to make these economic choices about how much content you shoot, how much talent you have access to, how much you can ask the audience to sort of be patient with you. And so I learned how to do that there.

And it wasn't a skill set. I thought I would need, you know, leaving TNA. And it's been very valuable. How to, because there were, there were nights in TNA where we were shooting at Universal. And we'd run poor Drew Galloway, you know, out there, fortunately. times in the night, you know. And every time you go out the pop would get a little bit less, you know, and I'm, and I'm friendly with Drew or friends. And, and, you know, the four times he comes through the curtain, he'd look to me like, Jesus, you know, they're killing me out there,

you know. So it's experiences like that that are valuable because I'm very sensitive about how how many times to run talent through a curtain on a given night and a taping night and stuff like that. Luckily, we're at a point now where we have so much talent on the roster. I pretty much don't have to run people out there more than once a night, which is fantastic, because it keeps the crowd fresh and we're able to have really good taping cycles. I remember going to impact tapings or TNA tapings and it would never be filmed in chronological order. So I'm like, wait, what is what's going on here?

And then I was part of, you might have been part of some of that. We used to purposely try to confuse people occasionally because we didn't want the spoilers to necessarily make sense even if you read them. So we would shoot stuff out of sequence sometimes. And there were times where you just had to shoot it out of sequence and that was my numbing. because somebody would win and then the next night they cut the promo about I'm going to beat you and it was so surreal. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Throughout this whole conversation you've been saying like the NWA is back and it's amazing that it's back. Was there ever a thought that it might not come back? Oh yeah. During the pandemic, I definitely had those days where I was like, this is not going to work. It wasn't that it wasn't going to work based on the plan that I had. It was like, do I have the commitment level to do this at the highest levels?

it's sort of like the joke I like to tell. It's like, you know, you're going to take an eight-mile walk. You walk about four miles and you start thinking about turning back instead of reaching your destination. You have that thing like, well, I could turn back now and I haven't gone too far or I could just go to my destination. And I was sort of having that conversation sort of daily in my head. I talk to people publicly, you know, I'm going to start privately in meetings about what was going to happen with the NWA when we came back. and people were surprised I was expressing reservations about restarting. And I think, you know, some people ran and started whispering around, always going to sell,

always going to get rid of it. I had no intention of selling. It was mostly, do I have the deeper commitment level? Now that I see how, what it's going to take to complete this particular journey, do I have what it takes? And the good part is once I've made that decision, I'm all in and I think the product has really benefited from my commitment. And that's not to put me over. I think the talent sees how committed I am. And that gives the talent, the confidence that to invest in the NWA as a product and as a culture is going to be, is going to be rewarding for them for years to come.

So there is a destination that you're headed towards? Absolutely. What is it? The CVV level up here where you are. I think you should probably set the bar a little higher. I'm going to set the bar a little higher. No, I want the company to return to international prominence. competitive at the highest levels with the biggest companies. I think that is, if you, if you heard me

say that five years ago, it sounded like a pipe dream. And you heard me say that four years ago and saw how much money I was spending his thought, now he's never going to get there. Now that you see where we're at, where we're going, who's involved, what we're capable of and what will happen when we gain more access, more resources and a little bit more ground under our feet, you start to go, okay, he might actually pull this off. Just the fact that I'm sort of, it doesn't sound like insane when I say it. I think that tells you that I've done something. But I mean, I'm sure you would agree the life's not about the destination. I'm sure once you get to. In this particular case, it is about the destination.

No, what it really is. That it stops? Because, no, because, look, the hardest lesson to learn in the entertainment business, and I'm including wrestling in the wider conversation, obviously I've had more experiences in music. The hardest thing that, understand is that the public is really interested in the day to day to day what's happening what's happening what's happening what's happening when you become successful uh in anything in entertainment there's a feeling of like oh my god i climbed up this massive mountain can i take a breath and the answer's no then when you become quote-un-un-quote a legend like i hear you know that's when you know you're getting old people start throwing around the legend word with me right you're a legend well okay great i'm a legend

Does that mean if I go down the street and I announce a concert, it's immediately going to sell 15,000 tickets? Probably, actually. Well, it depends, but the answers generally no. But my point is, is the public's insatiable need for what's next, what's next, what's next, what's next is totally fine. From the entertainment side, you wish it had more of a kind of like, climb, climb, climb, climb, take a break.

Climb, climb, climb, take a break. It does not work that way in the public's mind. And I think you see it in different times with different, with different companies, there's points of fatigue, there's points where they get a little bit lost, they have to kind of refocus. It's not because people aren't trying. It's just it's exhausting to constantly try to be at your best all the time. It's just not a natural human condition. And so, yes, in this particular case, the destination is to reach the highest levels because otherwise everything we're doing is not wasted but won't be as valuable as I want it to be. And why would I put

my time. I have a great life, you know, and I'm not here to brag. I mean, I've been successful. I've had a great. I could stop. I could continue to take on something like the NWA, make it a full-time job, work 240 hours a week. You've got to really believe that you're going to get where you want it to get. Otherwise, the journey bit, I think I had the journey part in Tina. I did the journey there. I went through a whole journey there of like innocence, to like what is happening to investment to what is happening lawsuits and public acrimony and all that stuff i've already done the journey this is a very deliberate plan to bring this company back to the highest levels um i'm i'm committed to the idea that there will come a point when the n wa is no longer

mine and when i turn it over to somebody else hopefully and you know past the hundred year anniversary um that it'll be a prominent company that will have great value not only for fans, but also to my family, that the work will have been worth it and then the investment. And when I can turn to a Trevor Murdoch will hopefully be working in the office at that point, or a Nick Aldous, or a Mickey James or whoever, whoever's involved with me on a business level. And now we're still working together on the office side. All our efforts will have meant something in a very particular way. And otherwise to me, I do think in this particular case, it's some Super Bowl or bust.

So if that's the destination for the NWA, is there a destination, for the smashing pumpkins or are you already there? I think that it's very rare in public life on the music side to have a big run be considered sort of like it's never going to happen again and then have another big run. Our big runs are about 20 years apart, which is very, very rare. If you think about it, you could probably count on about your hands and your toes. how many people have actually done that, gone down, and kind of climbed their way all the way back up to the highest levels. So that would be the goal for us is to do it twice.

Wow. I mean, you're doing it right now, and it's so exciting to watch. We're in the neighborhood. Look, you know, we live in a very interesting time. There are acts in the music side that go out and tour consistently, tour stadiums without hit albums. That is completely unprecedented in the music business and the history of the music business. Usually you could only tour stadiums if you had a hot record and big hit on the charts. There are bands out there that are touring stadiums right now that do not have a hit record on the charts and haven't had a hit for years.

That is completely unprecedented. TikToks change the game. TikToks change the game, but also has what I would call it sounds like the Star Wars title, The Rise of the Brands, right, the institutional brand. Little inside baseball for a second. 10 years ago when the pumpkins were not in as strong a position as we are now, I would have meetings and people would basically look at me as an asset and say, well, here's what you have that's valuable. If you dump all that you have that's valuable on the table,

you make money and you go back up the ladder a bit and you'll be good. And I would be like, no, I'm not doing that. And they would be like, you're insane. And I'm like, no, I'm actually going to rebuild this thing. I'm not going to dump these easy assets on the table. And I'm going to rebuild it from the bottom up musically and culturally. And they would say, it's impossible. You cannot.

You just won't do it. You're wasting your time and you're wasting your money. Well, I've done it. You know what I mean? But I've done it the right way, which is about fans and brand. And in those meetings 10 years ago, I used to tell these people and they wouldn't believe me. My brand, the Smashing Pumpkins, is more valuable than you think it's worth. In your system, it's down to whether or not I have hit single, whether I'm in an item in a commercial or a movie or da-da-da-da.

or I appeared on the Grammy Awards. I'm telling you that the value of this brand is greater than you can measure. And I actually had a meeting once with a high-level executive in the record business who came in with a stack of papers like this. And they said, we just did a survey of 150,000 people in Europe. And he said, I think you'll be quite shocked by the results. And the results essentially were, and they had all these famous fans that they had polled, Pig Floyd, the Beatles, I mean, you name it.

Who's Who of Rock and Roll Hall of Fame acts. And our band was one of the top rated bands for customer satisfaction and brand awareness and brand positivity. And he was like, we don't see, we see these numbers over here in the survey, but we don't see them in the sales. And I said, yes, because you're not marketing that these people are what the brand is worth. You're marketing them in the old fashioned way, which is if you don't have a record on the charts, you have no value. What does Fish go? Fish is a band that I can't think of if they've ever had a major hit. if they had, it's been a while. They can go do, what, 20 Madison Square Gardens? Grateful Dead.

I think we had one hit song in their entire musical life, maybe two, right? The rise of the brands has been the real shift. So back to wrestling for a second, I think we see the rise of the brands by an independent level. So we see the rise of Matt Fredona as a brand, the rise of Chelsea Green, the rise of Mickey James, the rise of Nick Aldus, Trevor Murdoch, Tyrus. People try to quantify Tyrus as a talent. How can you? Yeah. He appears on television three times a week in front of over two million people. He's a best-selling author.

He just sold out a comedy show the night before NWA 74. People want to talk about him as a professional wrestler, which he's a great professional wrestler, in my opinion. But if you leave out all the other things that Tyrus is, if you leave out all the other things that Matt Cardona is, if you leave out all the other things that... Look at what Mickey James brand did for the Empower pay-per-view last year. WWE completely underestimated the Mickey James brand. Mickey James brought her brand to the NWA.

We ran a very successful pay-per-view off the Mickey James brand. That's kind of what I'm talking about. I go on forever because the subject I'm fascinated about. I realize most people are not as interested in as I am. But I think that's what you're seeing. And I think that's kind of what you and are poking around about here. It's like, what is the value of the NWA? The NWA is far more valuable than you would realize looking at it now.

I don't play the if game a lot, but you could play it in this particular instance. If the NWA was with the right television partner or the right financial partner, you put those pieces together with me and my level of celebrity and my level of access, with the roster and the culture that Pat Kenney and I have built, and with great talents like Matt and Nick and Mickey and people like that, and then you put all those pieces together with the institutional culture of the NWA. Okay, now you have something. Yeah.

Now you realize how undervalue the NWA is. Yeah. Look, I'm all about gratitude. I actually wake up every day. I say out loud three things that I'm grateful for. And that's how I end every interview as well. So what are three things in your life right now, Billy, that you're grateful for? Certainly my family.

My family gives me the support and the strength that I need to be such a crazy person in this world. I'm very grateful for the fact that the smashing, Pumpkins has continued and we've been able to mend fences and be a brotherhood so many years later, I think, like 35 years later, which is just really crazy. And then, of course, to be the sewer and the proprietor of the NWA, you know, literally the grandfather of them all, the company which, you know, created the AWA and, you know, what was continental, I believe, and became the WWF, you know, that all sprung out of the NWA. So,

It's like, it's part museum. It's part legacy. It's part opportunity. But we're in it. We're right in the middle of it. And the fact that we're running these pay-per-views and it's just cool. I'm just grateful. You know, I try to stop, you know, at least once or twice every time we're having a big show

and go out and, you know, get past the curtain and stand in the crowd a little bit and really feel because you got to realize what it takes people to make that decision to come to spend their harder money. to give you their time. It's important that you always stay humble on that. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. And I'm so grateful for the time that you always give me in these conversations. So thank you so much, Billy. Thank you, Chris. All right, my friends, big thank you to Billy for that great conversation. And thank you for spending the last hour with us. It would be amazing if you subscribe to the podcast. If you

haven't already, please leave a rating or review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and snap a screenshot, Tag us on social media so we can share it out as well. On Twitter, Billy is just at Billy. On Instagram, he's at Billy Corgan. You can find me at Chris Van Vleet. And Jack Canfeld said it best. Don't worry about your failures. Worry about the chances you miss when you don't even try.

Be great. Be grateful. We'll see you on the next one for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock. But there was one band that had it all. Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley?

How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of then? To Rock Bottom. Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this.

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