Insight with Chris Van Vliet - Billy Corgan On How NWA Competes With WWE & AEW, Tyrus As World Champion, Smashing Pumpkins

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Billy Corgan (@billy) is the lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins and also the owner and promoter of the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA). He sits down with Chris Van Vliet the Blue Wire Studios in Las Vegas to talk about NWA 75 on August 26 & 27 in St Louis. He also discusses the growth of NWA, the decision to make Tyrus the NWA World's Heavyweight Champion, what he learned from working in TNA, becoming the subject of a Family Guy joke, will there ever be a "Rat in a Cage" match, working with Eli Drake (LA Knight) in NWA, balancing Smashing Pumpkins and wrestling, finding a media partner for NWA and much more! Sponsors:  Use the code CVV to get a 50% welcome bonus at http://mybookie.ag  Use the code CVV to get your first month of BlueChew for FREE at http://bluechew.com Quote I'm thinking about: TikTok: tiktok.com/@Chris.VanVliet Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All systems are going. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Van Blele. Hello, my friends. Welcome back to another one here on Insight. I'm CBV, Chris Van Fleet. Hope all is well with you. Thank you so much for joining us on this one. It's always such a pleasure to sit down with Billy Corrigan.

The man pulls no punches. It's always very intelligent and also a very insightful conversation. Yes, pun intended. It's his third time on the show. last time he was on was, I think almost exactly a year ago to the day. Like almost to the day. That was episode number 392. If you want to go check that out, that one was done over Zoom. This one was done in person at our beautiful, incredible Blue Wire Studios inside the wind, Las Vegas, if you haven't seen what the studio looks like. Go check out, even just a clip of this

video on my YouTube channel. And by the way, wow, what a great transition here. you aren't yet subscribed to my clips channel. CVV clips, we just hit 300,000 subscribers last week. We're at 305,000 subscribers right now. Like the growth has been insane because of all of you. So thank you so much. If you aren't already subscribed there, please go take a second to subscribe to CVV clips and the main channel as well, which is just called Chris Van Fleet. And also follow here on the podcast so you don't miss out on any of the other great conversations that we have coming up. There was so much to talk about here with Billy.

One of the big things is how does NWA fit into the current landscape of pro wrestling? We also talked a lot about the decision to make Tyrus the NWA World's Heavyweight Champion and having him bring that championship onto Fox News and everything that kind of went along with that. Speaking of Tyrus and the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, it is the main event at NWA 75, which is August 26th and 27th in St. Louis. The pre-show is on YouTube. The main card is on fight. We talk about all of that. I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please snap a screenshot, let us know that you're listening. And tag us. Billy is just at Billy on Twitter. Yeah,

can you believe that? He's just at Billy. You know, how hard that must be to get? I would love to have at Chris or at CVV, but I do not. He is at Billy on Twitter. I'm at Chris Van Vleet. on Twitter. So, and also Instagram, I guess, everywhere else. So tag us, snap a screen shot and tag us, and we'll share that out. But let's get into this. Please welcome the one and only, Billy Corgan. It's good to see you again. I wish I was Matt Cardone. He's having his best life. My goodness. I mean, thanks in no small part to you in the NWA. Love working with him, and he's been a great addition when he's, when he's been around. I think his business model of being a free agent has been very smart in this current marketplace.

And I think because he sort of gets the marketplace, both in terms of the brands, ideas, companies, he's been really easy to work with. And really, anytime he's come in and done business with us, it's always been fantastic. This is a vintage shirt you're wearing. Shouldn't this be the NWA 75? It's two years old.

I haven't gotten my NWA 75 shirt yet. I feel like if anybody's going to have it, it should be you. This is the much, the much-ballahood NWA 73, where we came back after the pandemic. Yes. The Empower show. and then a great second night. Yeah, it's amazing NWA 75.

It's pretty wild. We're just starting to get the traction with the media on the event as people realize that it's pretty rare that a company could run 75 years continuously. Yeah. And obviously a lot of those years weren't the best years,

but the fact of the matter is it never broke. You have a complete, a successful lineage of champions, and I think that is the one thing that the NWA has that pretty much nobody else in the business had. Is it still a daily thing where you're explaining to people?

yes, I own a wrestling company. Yes, every day. You know, we call it colloquially the wrestling bubble. And I would assume you and I both live in the wrestling bubble. But you also exist very much so.

Let me finish my answer on that. I don't mean that disrespect me. What I'm trying to say to you is that there's a lot of stuff that matters in the wrestling bubble and it is really important. It is really important. Particularly to us in wrestling. But the minute you step through those gates and go out into the real world, which is the world I mostly live in because of my band and my other businesses, you realize how little wrestling matters outside that bubble.

And the shame of it is, is most people when they come in contact with really good professional wrestling, they enjoy it. So something has broken here in the last 20 or 30 years where the common person, and I don't mean that pejoratively, doesn't really understand or appreciate what makes wrestling so fun for the family and great entertainment. entertainment. And meanwhile, wrestling sort of has turned its back on the common person, why they go after somebody who's willing to spend a lot of money per year to do destination events and merchandise. We've seen similar things in rock and roll, but wrestling has a particular kind of way of doing it. And, and of course I've said a lot in the last couple years, I think that's sort of wrestling's bigger overall problem is we've stopped sort of reaching out to the common person and trying to kind of find them where they live. Of course, you know, you have two major brands with television shows

on broadcast networks. So the argument is, well, here we are. We can be found. But back to what I'm trying to say, when I walk through life and people are like, why are you involved with wrestling and what is this? And that kind of tells you that something's sort of a little bit off. There's always this. Well, I used to watch wrestling when I was a kid. I hear it all the time. I hear it all the time. We all hear it. And not just in regards to the NWA. I hear it all the time. Not everybody I talk to like that as an NWA fan. They might be a old school WWF fan or whatever. They just don't get it.

And yeah, so my whole point of the NWA at this point going about six years into owning the company is trying to figure out that formulae where you can take really good mainstream professional wrestling and bring it to the people and once again sort of bring back those greater numbers. Where do you think that right now in 2023 that the NWA fits into the. the wrestling landscape that exists? I think we're properly positioned to be the next big company. I know people will kind of go, how does that work? I think it has to do with my access to mainstream media. I think it has access to do with my access to every network in the world who's interested in what I'm doing. And I'm just trying to find the right business models with them. And I think it has to do with presenting a mainstream wrestling product that the average person if presented it on television will respond to. I think once the NWA can get in that position,

if we can get in that position. And you can argue that's a big if, but if we get in that position, I think we will run side by side with the biggest companies in the world because wrestling by and large is a cheap product to make. That's always been its great attraction to television.

And it has a consistent audience that will show up week after week. So getting from, let's call it, the bottom of the pile to the top of the pile, now that's a vast distance. But if you can cross that desert and get to the other side,

well, it's pretty wide open. And in terms of product, I think the NWA fits quite comfortably between AEW and WWE. WVE has a very hardcore fan base, but they do business in a very particular way. Of course, that's much debated through the years. Vince, of course, is the only promoter that's ever made money in wrestling. So we always have to pay tribute to that.

AW, of course, is running a very brand-specific product. Tony's found business where people didn't think business could be found, and I'll credit to him on that. But again, that mainstream up-the-middle position of professional wrestling is sorely lacking. many people would argue that WWE is that mainstream thing. I would argue it's its own version of niche. I think that the longer this actor strike goes on right now and this writer's strike goes on,

it only really benefits pro wrestling. Yes. And here's the other thing. And it's, you know, I know you have a smart audience. That's why they watch you. Thank you. Yes, that was a compliment. A rare Billy Corgan compliment.

Thank you, sir. I dole them out very sparingly. You know, what they call in the business OTTs, over the top networks. Live event sports-based programming is really, really important. When Netflix, for example, came off their high horse five years ago and said, we will never touch professional wrestling. And fast forward five years later, and I'm on the phone with Netflix having meetings.

I'm not saying I'm going to Netflix. What I'm saying is that that shows you that live event sports is, one of the most important things to those digital OTT type networks. I mean, look at YouTube TV is the home of the NFL Sunday ticket right now. I wish YouTube was a better partner to professional wrestling and a lot of live event sports. They're just not. You know, of course, we run for free on YouTube and it's been a good thing for our business. But if YouTube was truly a faithful partner to people, content creators, then you come up through YouTube?

Isn't that kind of how you built your world? Well, I think originally television, but then I was like, wow, there's way more. eyeballs on YouTube for free. Did you find that same thing where you didn't really find that YouTube was sort of there for you? Yeah. I still feel that. I think that's a lot of content creators.

Yeah. If YouTube truly understood, I think, the model that's coming where you need this kind of new relationship that's here to before not been seen, which is like, hey, I'm a content creator. I don't care who I am, you know, one of the, who's the brothers that built their brand? The Paul brothers? The Paul brothers, right? Sorry.

Jake and Logan. Yeah, I mean, they've been an incredible job of gaming that system. Sure. But they should be viewed as no different than a show on Fox or something. And YouTube doesn't really look at that model properly. And by the way, I have a little bit of bite and vinegar in my thing because YouTube for years, of course, is look the other way when fans cover my songs. I don't get any of the money on that.

Oh, wow. And that's sort of an interesting other backstory. YouTube kind of turned a blind eye to people covering people's songs. Now, if you put a clip of one of my songs, I do get some kind of royalty there. Sure. But if you were to cover one of my songs on your auto tune acoustic guitar, I don't get anything for that. So YouTube as a business model benefits from people covering artist's music. Wow.

So that's just a little sideline on that. So anyway, I think that the networks that are starting to figure it out are going to be what YouTube could have been or maybe will eventually be, which is like they will look at someone like you and say, we got to get in the Chris business. Because this guy's figured something out. Yeah. Rather than treat you like, hey, you're lucky to be. on our platform, you know, we'll dole out a couple cookies to keep you around, but not really pay you for the which of the value that you're bringing. We're in a really weird in-between area right now where like, I think we're still,

we still really respect traditional broadcasting and we're not quite there. Like, there's still a bunch of people that are- I think we're there. There's still a lot of people who Mr. Beast is, you know, biggest YouTuber in the world. And I think that like, I think that we're getting close to being there. But- I don't mean this disrespectly, and I don't mean it disrespectly to me. Mr. Beast. Look, I signed with the record label in 1990. And as an artist, content creator, you know, I had all the pride and ego of somebody like, hey, you need me. And I could never

understand why the labels treated us so poorly. And they paid for that over time. But the essential ideas is it's still the networks that are the thing, because they're the people that have to make those decisions. Most talents rise and fall meteorically in Windows. Some stick around, which is why down the street. We have a bunch of Gordon Ramsey restaurants every time you turn around, right? He's built this brand off of what became a television personality. Where I'm going with this is I understand the pride of a content creator. I understand the pride of an NWA to make 100 plus years, 100 plus hours of television a year now. Like, that's a big deal for me, right?

Not to mention the expense that's involved and the logistics that are involved. But if you're YouTube, if you're Paramount Plus, Peacock, whatever, they have to figure out who's hot in the market. And that's ultimately what it's about. So what I'm trying to say to you is, I think we're already there. If you look at the losses that are going on, I think it was a peacock that just came out, $635 million loss in three months. But why are they willing to endure that loss, me speculating? It's because what's coming is the business.

So what I'm saying is we're already there. They just haven't figured out the math yet. So what's the perfect partner? What would be the perfect partner for the NWA? I think a digital-based network with a broadcasting arm that has reach in lots of different areas. And me as a content creator can basically work with them in whatever area they're in. So if they have a broadcasting arm, I can provide traditional broadcasting, a television to people who still want to sit down at 7 p.m.

and see whatever is on TV. That's fine. And then you have the digital for people in the younger generation who don't sit and watch destination TV. They want to punch it up whenever they want. Of course, there's fast networks and stuff. So I think that's where the NWA will fit quite comfortably. And I've had a lot of those conversations in the last two years. So if you can imagine it, if I'm painting a simple picture for people, it's like,

here's a great content creator in the NWA, figuring it out, getting better, getting stronger, getting clearer on a mission and targeting the audience that we want. And here's a digital-based sphere with obviously the broadcast arm. You still see it as broadcasted digital. I actually see it the other way now. I think it's digital to broadcast. and you meet kind of in the middle. And, you know, if you're hot and they're hot, then everybody rises.

So you're saying you want a live component of this at some point in time down the line? Yeah, I think everybody knows that, you know, again, you have a smart audience. You know, when you run live event stuff, that's a lot more expensive than say putting stuff on tape. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, just like look at the respect that you must give something like the raw that switches run how many years. It's like to run a live-based show on time, deliver, you know, main events. stuff that really matter, keep an audience coming back. I mean, that is quite an accomplishment. You look at the infrastructure and stuff like that.

So when you look at why an endeavor would pay $9 billion for WWE, one person would sit there who doesn't understand and say, well, you're just buying, what do you buy, wrestlers in a ring? You're buying a whole culture that knows how to make that work week after week after week, in their case, multiple times. You're also buying IP. Everybody, whether you're a wrestling fan or not, knows the WWE slash the WWF. well, we're seeing that swing it to music for a second.

We're seeing artists and what artists have created through the years has far more value in the marketplace than anybody can imagine. I think Bruce Springsteen just sold all his stuff for about $500 million. Are you going to sell the pumpkin stuff? At the moment, no. I don't plan on it. I've had those conversations. You know, my catalog is valuable, you know.

Of course. Well, thank you. But what I'm saying is, you know, I don't, think all the math is in yet on what the true value of artists is. I made this argument about 10 years ago at a music symposium and people kind of rolled their eyes at me. It was mostly radio programmers and I was chastising him for saying, do you understand that the Beatles and Queen are far more valuable to your stations than the band that had the one hit? And that you really should get in behind the branding of the brands that really have made a difference in your business. Paint a quick picture

because it does kind of work back to wrestling. 1992 I walk into a radio station my band is just one of 500 bands it took real visionary people to go no your band means a lot more to this radio station than everybody else we're going to kind of lean into you when my band hit Fallow times in the late 90s early 2000s

we started getting shoved aside and I started saying but you're still playing all my other songs like nine times a day don't you want still want me in the room and they were like no we don't need you anymore wow so what happened they all came back around. Why do they come back around? Because the value of the brand, or Nirvana, or Pearl Jam and Pumpkins is far more valuable than the band that had one or two hits on.

So we see the same thing in wrestling. It's like we've seen it with them, fan conventions and stuff like that, but let's call that the lower tier of why is WW now sort of getting very much in the business of like documentaries and because the brand of a ultimate warrior is far more valuable than they would even imagine 10 years ago. And nostalgia is a hell of a drug. I'm not the biggest fan of nostalgia. I love it. I love it. I feel like your band, like, for so many people. Don't use that word with my band. Here's the thing.

I have three songs on the charts right now, which is pretty hard to do at this point. That's amazing. Thank you. Which three? Beguiled, empires, and spellbinding. Congratulations. That's great.

And then, of course, obviously, a lot of music from the past that gets played very regularly. Yeah. But what I'm trying to say, and it's kind of a bit of an esoteric argument, is. You have to understand the value of a brand and you have to sort of illuminate that value for people who go, I don't get it. So, for example, the NWA, when it's laying there six years ago, nobody wants it. I made the mistake one time of saying, and I was being honest, saying, you know, the NWA was so worthless that the WW even didn't want it. That's a true story.

The W.W. passed on buying the NWA from Bruce Tharp. That's actually shocking, considering everything else they've watched. What is that? You see, the click bait of it is they jump all over that because it makes a good headline. Yeah. But if people were smart enough, which most people aren't in that click bait world, the real nuance of what I'm saying is, is WW thought so little of the NWA brand, they didn't even think it was worth taking it off the market because they never thought it would be a threat. Now, I'm not sitting here and saying I'm a threat to the WW. But there might come a day where I'm a threat to the WWE, where for pennies on the dollar,

they could have taken the NWA off the market. Because if you can get the NWA properly positioned with the right network and the right situation. Again, these are ifs. Then the value of the NWA, the value of the NW history, the value of the lineal titles, the value of the fact that the NWA is connected to a Terry Funk and a Dusty Rhodes and a Dory Funk Jr. and a Jack Griscoe and a Ricky Steamboat and a flare. Suddenly all that kicks in. Now you have something that you have something of value. That's the hard thing. The problem is is people think it's a nostalgia play. It is not a nostalgia play. It's never been a nostalgia play for me. And I figure that out very quickly. Does WWE ever reach out to you and go, hey, Billy, could we have the

licensing for some of this footage? Oh yeah. We have had conversations like that. And I've said this a few times, WW has been nothing but great to me. Absolutely, world class, first class, great. No problems. No poaching of talent. Total respect for the contracts. No messing with my talent. Nothing. I mean, absolutely gold standard, perfect. Any business conversations have had with them. Always great. Always respectful. I have nothing but good things.

And then it's just been a business exchange of like, hey, could you give us this footage from 19? It's been everything from conversations about footage that they might want in particular instances. In fact, there was a recent conversation about something involving something I can't talk about. But, no, because I try not to be that guy. Yeah, of course.

To everything to where, and I've talked about this a few times where we had conversations for a long time about me possibly being on, sorry me, the NWA being on the network and talking about how that would work. They were in a different mode. This is all pre-sale and other things involving other NWA things. So yeah, been great, nothing but praise them. What I think is fascinating about you, and I've always been so fascinated,

is you were able to go all in on music. And at the same time, you're also able to go all in on wrestling. and I don't think that people are able to chase after both of those things with the same passion that you have for both. Yeah, I think it's hard for people to understand. I know when I first walked through the doors of wrestling as a person who was going to work in wrestling, which started about 10 years ago,

you know, it was everything from Moneymark to, oh, that's just some celebrity. They're just letting feel like he's in the show so we can get something out of him. It took a long time to establish not only credibility in the wrestling business, but also that I was here seriously to run a business. My favorite headline, and this goes into lazy clickbait stuff,

is Billy Corrigan, owner of the edWA and wrestling fan. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Put it this way. If I'm a fan, I'm paying more for wrestling than just about any fan on Earth right about now. Yeah. Actually, Tony would probably be.

I think you. So I'm probably number two behind John. Tony's number one. I'm number two and fan paying for wrestling, right? Actually, to pay what we want to see. Now, it's a business. And I think it's great in life if you can pursue things that you're passionate about. You've done a great job of that.

And make a business of it. So, you know, it's the old saying, if you're excited to go to work. Sure. I think both of us get up every day excited. You're like, hey, I'm doing exactly what I want to do. So wrestling's been a thing where you can certainly spend a part of each day questioning, why am I in this business? But, you know, luckily for me, I've been in a really day.

dumb business for over 35 years. That's called the music business. So dealing with the dumb side of wrestling has not been that shocking, although I'm forever shocked. Which fans are more fickle? Music fans or wrestling fans. Really? Oh yeah. By far. Wrestling fans. And I'm sure you're, you're hyper aware of this. Tyrus is such a sticking point for some people. Really? It's shocking, right? I've never heard this. This is news to me. What's interesting to me is a lot of people that hate Tyrus, who think he's a real life heel, have never actually watched one second of him on Fox News and I've no idea what any of his takes are on there. But he's there. I don't like him. Yeah. It's an interesting subject because it's like, put it this way, if we were talking about

Tyrus as a phenomenon, right, here's a man who was Snoop's bodyguard. Yeah. Who made the transition from being a bodyguard to a famous music icon to working in professional wrestling, getting over, with the biggest company in the world, leaving and continuing when I met him, he was working at TNA, we both were. And then I was there when he first went on a Gutfeld show, which was kind of like a lark.

They tweeted something and Gutfeld invited him on the show and he took off. Yeah, he's like, I'll be there. So, I think with everything with Tyrus, you must always start with this. Here is a man who grew up in a very tough situation. Okay. He created his own.

opportunities in a world that we all admit doesn't necessarily give people like him the best opportunity. He fought his way through. He's been successful at everything he's ever touched. And now he's a bestselling author. He's got three sort of bona fides under his name. And he's doing these live shows, you know, making all kinds of money off of that too. Yes. And his wife and he are putting those shows together. So he's almost kind of running that on their own. Wow. I didn't know that. Yes. So let's let's say, it's four, four. successful venues he's operating. He's 50 years old. He still has a lot of road to go, and I don't think the story is yet told on him. So let's talk about him in wrestling. He loves

wrestling. He gets the business, and he's worked with some of the greatest minds in the history of the business, whether it's dusty or Vince, right? So you start there. So when people try to bring in, let's call it, the social political aspect of the world that we live in, which is very important. I'm not disregarding them. But when you try to, to make that something about how a wrestling product is supposed to be booked, that's where you lose me. So I'm supposed to weigh more a political consideration over this man's brand and who he is as a human being.

I like to stand next to successful people. I mean, I have my own issues in life about wanting credit. You know what I mean? Like I'm in a band, but I like to tell people, by the way, I wrote all those songs, right? there's a distinguishing thing that needs to go on there sometimes. Like, by the way, I'm the guy who wrote those songs. You could talk about the band all you want,

but I'm the guy who wrote it right. So you've got to give this man his respect. So if you can't give this man his respect, and you take away who he is and what he's accomplished simply because of the network that he works for because you don't like sort of the political aspect of it, that's where you lose.

Because that seems like a strange argument to make. So just waits up. You're going to, in 2023, you're going to look at, you're going to look an African-American man in the face and say, we're going to disregard everything you've accomplished when we're all talking about how the deck is stacked against someone with your background. We're going to strip all that way because we just don't like where you're coming from politically.

That's a weird thing to me because I was told in the world that I was growing up in that you needed to give people opportunities and need to respect people who accomplish something. And if anybody were to watch Tyrus on Fox, he's more often than not the voice of reason. And I feel like a lot of people just won't even give it a try. Well, we live in that world. I mean, you know, I've stuck my foot in certain social and political issues through the years. And there are still people that will not let it go. And I just, I like to think, look, if we're watching Chris's show, we're wrestling fans, right?

The world, what happened with the rise? This is a weird print to make, but we're talking wrestling. Stone Cold was probably the first true, flare you could argue maybe, but Stone Cold was a new version where the anti-hero heel was the baby face. And it kind of blurred the lines of like, Hulk, eat your witties. Say your prayers, eat your vitamins. Stone Cole was like, no, I'm going to punch you in the face

and drink the beer out to make fun of you, right? Yeah. So we live in a morally ambiguous world. And so when people try to divide the world into good team, bad team, it's really a discredit to the intellect of what we need as a country. Things tend to be a little bit more sophisticated than that. So with everything you're saying, it sounds like it was a pretty easy decision for you to put the belt on Tyrus.

No, but I'm trying to change your question. It wasn't an easy decision or a hard decision. It wouldn't be an easier or hard decision based on the calculus that most people would think. Does it make sense? So you're just looking at it strictly from wrestling standpoint. No, I'm looking at it from a holistic thing. I just value things at a different level. So is the value there?

And I totally think this is brilliant marketing. He brings the championship onto Fox. By the way, he did that on his own. That was nothing I asked of him. And by the way, he also said, are you cool with this? So that's somebody who behind the scenes is doing business for me the right way. Hey, are you cool with this?

Yeah. I'm going to do this. By the way, he took heat at one point for doing it inside and he's still wearing the belt. So he represents the company with pride. Again, I know him as a man as a human being. He's not some guy in television. I know the person.

I knew him before he started that day. So when you asked me, was that an easier or hard decision? It's based on the whole calculus of the person that I know, the opportunity that we have together. I like what it says about our company that anybody can walk through the door and have an opportunity at my company. And I'm not talking about diversity.

I'm not talking about what you bring to the table in terms of brand value. I'm talking about if you walk through the door and you get over with me, I will give you the opportunity. And I will not listen to somebody in a corner who's never stepped in a wrestling ring. Tell me how to book my promotion.

Any less than I will listen to you, scream from the back row and tell me what song to play on stage. You were talking to the wrong dude. I am not that guy. I have benefited in this life from being who I am, which is a weirdo, O.G. goth guy over here. I was doing it long before anybody thought it was cool and there were T-shirts at Hot Toppe.

Right? Yeah. It's true. And then there were times where people told me, I have to tone all that down. I didn't. And now I'm having an even bigger run of success later in life because of who I am.

So the NWA, by extension, as my company, represents that spirit, which is it's about getting over. It isn't about, hey, somebody might complain because of the thing. You know, it's a brutal, physical business. Look, we're in Vegas. You could argue that part of Vegas's Renaissance in the last 20 years has a lot to do with the UFC. Yeah.

I'm not talking about Dana White's politics. I'm talking about who Dana White, the person, and I know Dana just a little bit. What does Dana always say? I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm running a fight. Yeah. Right.

So by extension, I'm in the fight game. We're in the promotions game. So when I say stuff like, and it was, of course, not so much misquoted as misappropriated. If you don't like Tyrus, you don't like wrestling, that's not what I was saying.

I would never tell a, wrestling fan. If you don't like this one individual talent, you don't like wrestling, that's stupid. What I'm saying is, is if you don't like Tyrus is in the world in wrestling, then you're not really into wrestling. You're into some sort of weird paddy cake game where you

get to pick the toys you want to play with and make them fight like little kids. This is a brutal promotions game. I need the best athletes and the best personalities in the world that clash so that someone like you will want to pay to see it. This episode is brought to you by

I'm MyBooky. And with the NFL season right around the corner, MyBooky is the best way to get in on the action. It's also the premier place to bet on all combat sports. So we're talking UFC, boxing, and yes, WWE, you can bet on WWEPLEs at mybooky.orgie. So instead of just saying, oh, this person is definitely going to beat this person,

why not turn that WWE knowledge into actual cash in your wallet? And that's not all. When you use my promo code CVV, you're going to get a 50% welcome bonus on your first deposit. So if you put in, I don't know, $100, now you've got $150 to bet on WWE payback or anything else on their website. It's my bookie.orgie. And use that promo code CVV for a 50% welcome bonus on your first deposit. This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. And if you've ever been thinking of trying Blue Chew, how about your first month for free?

Yeah, when you use the promo code CVV at checkout at bluechew.com, you'll get your first month for free. You just have to pay $5 for shipping. Guys, this is the same active ingredients as Viagra, Sealis, and Lovietra, but it's intuable tablets and a fraction of the cost. And the best part, it's all done online. There's no doctor's visits, no awkward conversations, no waiting in line at the pharmacy. And look, even if you don't struggle in the bedroom, department, this is kind of a fun thing to try. And I promise you, the Mrs. or the girlfriend or whoever it is is going to be a big fan of this too. Bluechew.com. Use that promo code, CVV at checkout, and you get your first month for free. You just have to pay $5 for shipping. That's bluechew.com. The promo code is CVV.

When you talk about people wanting, you want people to impress you. What do you look for a new talent when they come into the NWA or when you're looking at them scouting them to possibly come in? I don't want clones. I don't want clones. If you look at the NDAO roster in terms of who's sort of booked and gets repeatedly booked, there's almost nobody like them in wrestling. Now, you may argue and say, okay, I kind of get why you like this guy over here, but this guy over here is more talented. Yeah, but that guy's a clone. I don't want clones.

I made my bona fides in the world by being an alternative rock star, not a rock star, an alternative rock star. I charted a path that very few people thought there was any money in, and we've been very successful for over 35 years. Excuse me. So my point is, is I'm looking for people who have a little bit of something that's just a little bit different. I grew up on Adrian Adonis and Jerry Blackwell and Jesse the Body, a lot of AWA in Chicago, Dick the Brewzer, the Crusher. No clones there. Very different individualated personalities. So if we're playing the little game where we put the toys together and they fight,

I like the matchup. So go back to Tyrus for a second. If you don't like Tyrus, then boo or, you know what I mean? But if you're going to say, I'm not going to watch because I don't like it. It's like, are you really at that level of stupidity? Does it make sense the argument that I'm making? And I'm not asking you to agree. I'm saying, does it make sense?

Of course it makes sense. Yes, it totally makes sense. As every UFC fighter that's walked into ring universally loved by the UFC fans? Of course not. No. It's interesting in a wrestling house sometimes people can't separate the character that someone's playing from who they are in the real world. Did Brock Lesnar not leave WWF or E at the time to go play in the NFL, had total heat with Vince? Okay.

Came back. had total heat with the wrestling audience. Right, right? Yeah, got booed WrestleMania against Goldberg. And who's been one of the top attractions for the last 15 years? Yeah, well.

For 10 or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So I'm saying, what game are we in? Are we in the Paddy K game or are we in the fight promotion? Yeah. Everybody watching knows that, you know,

wrestling is not real, but there's a reality to the not real. Yeah. Which is who are you trusting to go in there and create that movie for you in real, in real time, living theater. Who are you going to put that around? So when people ask me, or you asked me,

was that an easier, hard decision? I know the man. I don't know the person on television. I know the man. And I walk proudly with that, man. If people don't like it, I don't care. You know what clip slash gif gets replayed from the NWA all the time?

Eli Drake, shoes of a champion promo. And I was there for that too. I remember sitting backstage going, this is magic and we are watching us. I think it was because he had, I think they were doing something with champagne. Yes. And he was, he was barely intoxicated. Are you going down the road of his recent success? Yeah.

I mean, I feel like people have been sleeping on him for 10 years, not you. And also people are forgetting that he was a world champion in impact. Yes. When I was in the booking office of then TNA, I was certainly one of his biggest fans. I pushed hard to get him more time. I love Sean. I think Sean is so insanely talented. Yes, one of the great promos of all time.

And that's not to take away anything from his wrestling. He is a main event level ability in the ring. But we all know that if you can walk and talk, you hit that other echelon. It's great to see him hitting that now. You know, we booked him. You know, he was being set up to be NWA heavyweight champion. And that's right around, I think, the time of the pandemic hit. He was under an NWA contract.

And it got to the point where it was like, you know, I can't remember what it was, but me and him always did good business, no heat there. But it was obvious that it was like he needed to go pursue other opportunities. And where I was standing at the time was just going to hold him, hold him back. There was something there. But it was clearly understood that, you know, obviously it was built around Aldus for a while. But once Aldus was going to drop the title, it was going to, clearly go to him. So that's a shame that it never happened because we would have had a lot of fun.

Always great to work with him. And somewhere there's a picture of my 50th birthday. And it's me, Aaron Stevens, Eli Drake, EC3. And I can't remember another person from wrestling was there. So, yeah, I've always gotten on with him. And I'm very happy for him. And he deserves every bit of success that's coming his way because he's fought and clawed his way to get there. What do you think it is that WWE is not, why aren't they pulling the trigger on him? Are you asking me to criticize them or are you asking me to guess? Because look, you saw what everybody else sees in Eli Drake, L.A. and I, whatever you want to call him. I'll tell you what, let me do it slightly differently.

Okay. Because I was in the office of TNA pushing him saying, we've got to get behind this guy and I heard the people in the office who didn't buy it. Wow. It was great in TNA. And by the way, that was when he was, you know, seven, eight years younger than he is now. Talk about dummies. Well, we had that, we had that gimmick.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's so good. I think that, yeah, you know what? Listen, I don't want to throw water on his moment because he deserves it. I think one thing that

I think people would point to from a booking point of view, again, this was not my perspective. I heard it in the office there was size. Stand next to the guy. Great, great. Jacked. Yeah, but, you know,

when you, it's hard to explain the dynamics here. For example, I'll put it in the NWA world for a second. Trevor Murdoch, 6-6, 6-7, Tyrus, 6-7-68. NW is very big.

We're kind of very big with our main event guys. So a guy who's 6-1, 6-2 can look small and optics in the product can be an issue. But here's what I've always said. And you kind of follow your little axioms in resting. My thought is,

because there's been a lot of talk in the last couple of years with Tony pushing cruiser weight so hard, if you're going to be 5-9 or 6-1 or whatever, you've got to be one of the all-time greats. You've got to be Ray Mysterio, you've got to be Sean Michaels, you got to be, Blair, you've got to be so good that you're, so is Sean Ricker, you know, Eli Drake slash LA Knight? What's his name today? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Does he have that level of ability? Does he have the moxie? Does he have the charisma? Does he have the promo? Can he wrestle at that level? Yes. I've seen it. I know it. So I would have not an ounce of doubt. But if there are people on that side of the fence who would have their doubts, traditionally, and this is more observational, WWE seems very reluctant to jump in when the crowd gets in behind a guy or a girl. Yes. They tend to kind of really slow walk that process and see how real it is. And there's been several examples of that. And let's be fair about it for the sake of argument, is there a reason that maybe there, is there a reason or may there be a reason that there's, that that's good business? Is it, I, because I say sometimes like,

you know, I'm not letting the Marx book my promotion. You know, somebody would say, well, when somebody's hot, the business is there. Maybe there's some other reason that we don't see. Yeah. It might have something to do with destabilizing the locker room and I might have something to do with, you know, what people always say, Vince, Vince makes the decisions. He decides. He's God, right? Yeah. He's the character that he played, you know. I don't know. Yeah.

I would like to be in the position to running a billion dollar company and having 50 plus years of data. Yeah. Invinces brain of what does and doesn't work to know, okay. Yeah, you might think that's good business, but for the bigger business of the WWW, here's why it's bad and here's why I got to slow walk it. Yeah. When you talk about optics. Because if it was that way, Cody would be championed. I think it's just a matter of time.

I think it's just a matter of time. Well, again, another super talented person that I was an NWA champion and I got to work with and I really like him as a person. Yeah. Right. What I'm saying is if you just went on momentum in T-shirt sales, well, Cody would be your champion. It would be Cody versus L.A. night.

Yeah. I didn't even mean to do that. But think about this. Remember when fans weren't totally getting behind Roman? And they stuck with it. and now that's really paying off. All it took was a global pandemic and no fans in the building. I don't know, but what I'm trying to say is,

what I'm trying to say is there are moments where you're faced with the decision as the person booking the roster where you have to get in behind people that the fans maybe don't get or don't see or getting that talent over is more beneficial to the overall arc of your business than just one angle. where I was going with the optics is NWA has a very different look now than it did in 2019 a lot of people loved that studio look

what was the decision behind changing the look I just thought I got kind of got stale we're talking about changing look for a third time I think part of it too was a bit reactionary and I'm not saying this is a good bad or bad thing but I just heard people saying the word throwback

or old school or nostalgic too often with the NWA. I am not running a nostalgic promotion. I'm telling you straight up. There's no business there. There's no upside there. There isn't a fan base that's just suddenly going to come out with their walkers and start showing up. What is it?

It's not a nostalgic business. Is it a modern wrestling company? Absolutely a modern wrestling company. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think creating a nostalgic frame that I knew would work. as a business model to shoot television in a way that would balance out the economic forces

of the early NWA concerns, it was quite successful. So since then, we've experimented with different formulas, and now we have a new formula that we're about to implement. It involves some of the business things that we haven't announced yet,

but yeah, I feel good about that. But absolutely, I reach a point in a reactionary way where I just get sick of hearing that kind of throwback, old school world. Not because I don't love it, I do. I wouldn't have bought the NWA if I didn't love it, But there's no business there's literally, it's completely a dead end.

What do you think you learn from your time in TNA, good or bad, that you now apply? As much as it was as a crazy legal thing, I got a free education and how to run a wrestling company. So what are some of the things you implement now that you learn there, good or bad, things you go, I'm never doing that or, oh, that worked really well? I think the most valuable asset that I learned was learning how to shoot promos and producing segments, which allowed me access to dealing with talents more behind the scenes and getting inside character and how character animates in ring product. Because of the economic situation with the NWI, I'm not always able to do creatively what I want to do.

So right now, let's call it the very straightforward lean version of what I want to do. But I think you see the emphasis on characters is really important. And then how characters wrestle is very important. And again, I would point to the WWF slash E as being, the main proponent of creating a business model, which has been successful. So is this a, do you have a five-year plan? Is it a 25-year plan for? I said it was a 20-year plan about five years ago, and it's pretty much a 20-year plan.

Are you at where you wanted to be? I mean, obviously, you know, things were kind of on hold there for a little while. There are moments of frustration where I wish I'd gotten the TV deal that seemed like it was there. But then you realize, and it's a little bit of what I went through with the band, the minute you jump in the deeper water, now you're, now you're subservient to a greater set of forces, which are beyond your control. Put simply to the camera, the minute you take somebody else's money, now you're in a different negotiation. And they start, you know, I remember just to tell a quick, funny story.

I remember being a T&A, and there was some grousing about Kurt Engel being the champion, which seems strange to me because Kurt Engel is one of the all-time greats and always a great person to do business with behind the scenes. Nothing with respect for Kurt. So I was like, why are people complaining? Oh, well, you know, somebody pulls you aside. Well, we were on Destination America. Destination America told Dixie Carter,

you need someone as champion who represents America. So Dixie just switched the bell. Not an Olympic gold medalist? But the thing was, it was the grousing in the company was it was because it wasn't a wrestling decision based on setting up wrestling and characters. It was like the network who's paying us all this money told us, so we're going to do what the network said. So the grousing wasn't against Kurt.

Trying to think of EC3. Wow. Wow. I put two and two together there. There you go. Wow. So that's what I'm saying is, you know, sometimes you get frustrated and you think, I really wish I got that TV deal. But we may be in a worse position now because maybe we wouldn't have been able to fulfill the thing that we would have obligated ourselves to if we entered into a deal that we weren't ready to make.

Now I feel, so for doing a report card assessment, you know, about six years into me owning the company, I think the wrestling is at the highest quality that's been in the six years. I'm very, very happy with where the wrestling is and is getting better and we're getting younger, which I think is the key. We have a lot of a key young talents under contract. So very happy about that. And so the future looks bright there. And I think moving away from this kind of lazy take of old school and modernizing the product,

and now we're about ready to flip the switch into a more modern style of production. So, and I think, honestly, to be fair, past clickbait, I think a lot of the criticisms have been fair. I think the only thing I would say in defense is a lot of the criticism that are fair, they don't know the whole story, and I'm not a person who's always going to run out

and try to defend myself. When I was getting a lot of heat about Tyrus-related stuff, let's call it round one and round two of Tyrus-related issues. Some of my friends and some of my friends in wrestling who aren't in the company. Let's just say people around the biz who know me and sort of don't understand why I'm doing what I'm doing

would call and say, why aren't you out there defending yourself for? Because there is this other kind of aspect to these stories, not just Tyrus, other stuff involved. And I'm like, I have a different game I'm playing because the band is very successful.

I can't be fencing with dirt sheet writer number seven over some point that makes a lot of sense in the wrestling bubble. I got bigger fish to fry and I got a company to run that's called the NWA.

So my focus has been getting the NWA culture right. So one of the things I've said through the years is don't sleep on the NWA. There's a lot of people in the resting bubble who sleep on the NWA because they don't understand what I'm doing. And because I'm not sort of fillating them every day and feeding them dirt sheet information. Yeah. Right? They sort of see me as sort of a curiosity in the corner.

They don't understand I'm running a real business here that has a real opportunity to succeed. So what's the elevator pitch for one of those people that don't get it? that don't understand what the NWA is all about. Are you talking about a fan, a dirt cheat writer, or a person in the network? Wow. I would say a person that maybe watches WWE and or AEW or, you know, maybe one or the other. I pitch to someone who's watching current wrestling on television is the NWA is running a tougher product. Like harder hitting?

Yeah. We're just a tougher product. We're a more physical and tougher product than anybody out there right now. Bar none. Now, if you want to point to say GCW doing what they're doing and they do some cool and crazy stuff, okay, we're not ECW. But if you're talking about, let's call it, two people in a ring having a contest and there ain't no light tubes and there ain't no swinging, you know, battle axe coal miner's glove from a pole. That's excellent. Thank you. Just a wrestling match. Yeah. You know, William Patrick Corgan versus CVV. Amen. Okay. And you just. going to have a six-minute television match. By, you know, by and large, the NWA product is more physical and tougher in that scenario than just about every other company run. And we ain't run in Japanese strong style. This is very much an American AWA slash NWA 1960s to, you know,

early 80s procket product. And that's not throwback. They wrestled that way for reason. It was good business. So I've identified that's who the NWA is. That's who we're going to be. And that's the mountain we're going to die on. I want to take a very... So real quick, let me just finish my pitch, because you asked me. Yeah. So 15-year-old kid loves wrestling. Right? And I'm not going to pick a company because it's not fair. But let's say they're watching one product and they watch a little bit of the other. If and when they stumble across the NWA, I want them to go, this company's got a little bit more sauce in what they're doing. Why did I like ECW for the same reasons?

Yep. Okay. It wasn't so much the crazy hardcore stuff, although I did enjoy New Jack jumping off of, you know, you know, the Empire State building, putting poor balls through the floor. May he rest in peace. God bless.

Yeah, God bless them both. New them both. Had my issues with both. We're still talking about most wrestling is two people in a ring having them. What attracted me to ECW was the rebelliousness and the fact that it was like, we're going to do it our way. Jerry Lawler walks into the ECW arena. Extremely crappy wrestling, right? Jerry's criticism, which was valid, which is, you guys really aren't wrestling the way we do in Memphis.

But to a new generation is like, we don't care about all that hoo-ha. We want something that feels more real. Paul Heyman once told me that part of his vision for ECW was it was the grunge version of wrestling, which made total sense to me. Sure. And he said, when I saw bands like yours and Nirvana, it's like, I want that in wrestling.

So he was able to bring that spirit into wrestling. The most successful promotion in the world, fight promotion, the world is UFC. If you notice a lot of times, they don't always market baby face versus heel. Sometimes it's heel versus heel. Yeah. Who's the tougher, ambre, or with the ladies doing so successful as well, who's the tougher last?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. That's what we're running. To me, that simple alchemy is going to work. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But if I can get at a place where you have a fan and they don't have to go diving on YouTube to find NWA, you have a 15-year-old or a 22-year-old, and they like their wrestling, and they click on one, and they click on one, they're going to be attracted to mine because mine's tougher. Now, how do you define tougher in a worked environment?

Well, that's a different podcast. I want to ask you this question as a musician, and then separately as a wrestling promoter. What is the most annoying thing someone could say to you as a musician? Well, let's see. There's the social aspect of how people deal with me in life, and then there's how people deal with me as a musician. Is it when they're like, I like this one song?

The most annoying thing for me as a musician is when somebody walks up and sort of does this weird thing where they complement one period of my life musically while discounting the other period. So they go, oh man, I love 1979? No, thank you for making Siamese Dream. You saved my life. By the way, this has happened 50 times.

This is not one story. Siamese dreams saved my life. I mean, thank you so much. Incredible. And I'm like, wow, you know, I was suicidal and I was ready to jump off the building. And that album, thank you. Awesome. Wow.

You know, and I go to sit my green tea. And then they go, but after that, I don't really get it. They say that to your face. And I'll literally say, why do I need to know this? And they go, I thought you'd want to know. I don't fucking know anything. Fuck on. What the fuck would I want to know that?

So you reach a point where you don't want to know anything. You don't want to know that they lost their virginity. You know what I mean? You don't want to know anything. Because invariably behind that little rainbow is some dis, just waiting. What if it's like, Billy, I got married to one of your songs? Oh, I get that. And my child was born to your song.

You know, look, these are very honorable things. And I'm not dismissing them. It does touch me. But I've learned through the years to be like, because you wait for the dot, dot, dot. Is there often, is it often like, we'll just go to the wrestling world with that. So what's the most annoying thing a wrestling fan could say to you? They don't really, we haven't reached that.

I think the people that would have sort of annoy me loosely is they don't really understand what I'm doing. A friend of mine, friend in quotations, contacted me about something that was a dirt sheet thing. You know what I mean? And this is somebody who knows me personally. And they were literally reacting off of the dirt sheet thing. And I wrote them back like, but you know me.

Like, are you that dumb that you're going to go with the dirt sheet tape on something with me as opposed to, like, that's annoying. I don't expect the average wrestling fan, and I don't mean average in a negative way. the person who cares about wrestling, they're in the bubble, they're reading the clickbait. I don't expect them to know everything about me, care about my musical life. That's not what I'm asking. I just don't like when people misrepresent what the NWA is. Let's just do a quick reframe for anybody still watching. They're all still watching.

God bless. I took a company, which was, you know, out of about 68th or 69th year. I've literally picked it up out of the ashes, as we said before. for it. WWE didn't even want it to take it off the market. I brought it back to life. I've given a lot of people work. I gave people opportunities when nobody else wanted them. And I don't mean that in a negative way. They didn't see what I saw in them. I've created now, you know, there was the year where we didn't work because of the pandemic, but I've created about five years worth of content. And I've got matches with Ricky Starks and Eli Drake and Thunderosa that people have passed to

the doors. In some cases, people credit certain talents work in the NWA as the best work that that talent's ever done. I like to think I have something to do with that. I'm not in their wrestling, but I certainly put them in a position to succeed or thrive. And I've been happy when talents have gone on to bigger and better things out of the NWA because I'm not so crazy to think that I can provide them with that same opportunity. Eddie Kingston is a person that comes to mind. Love Eddie. Great, great person to work with. So I've created a unique voice in wrestling that has some ties to the past in terms of product, not just historically. And I'm creating another voice in wrestling.

How is that a bad thing? It isn't. We have probably the strongest women's division in all of wrestling. I would make that argument. A lot of great female wrestlers in the NWA. Very proud with the way we've run that and we've built it and we've invested in that. And even, you know, we're able to put on it. a show and all-female show. And that, of course, became its own version of controversy.

I will skip past that one for today. You've talked about that a bunch. Yes, but even there's a perfect example. The true story of the Empower thing has ever been told. I thought you told it on Busted Open. No, no. There's the, there's the real, real, real story. Okay. So we'll save that for the right moment. All right, podcast number four. Sure. What I'm trying to say is it's the NWA is purposefully not about. me. I've only used me in the NWA if it helps the NWA. Trust me, nothing I do in the NWA helps my musical life. Try zero or less than zero. There are fans that stop listening to my music because I entered professional wrestling. Wow. You probably gained some wrestling fans,

though. Hard to say. All I'm trying to say is my love for the sport, my love of trying to rebuild this company. Okay, you see there's something there. And I'm not even asking you to like it. I'm saying at least have some general respect for something's been created and give it its due and its individuated voice. We're a lot more successful than people think we are. But because we live in this bubble of clickery, people sometimes don't understand

the accomplishment. And then they start to think that that's how some representation of what's not being done right. Quick example, boring story. I opened a tea house, which is still running in Highland Park, Illinois, where I live. We're in our about seven or eighth year of operation. We have two different locations. It was shut down for two years, but okay, it's still running.

As soon as I opened a tea house, everybody came in, they pulled me aside and say, you know what you really need in here? You need some couches. I go, you mean like Starbucks? I'm like, yeah. And I'd say, I didn't open the tea house to be Starbucks. If I wanted to be Starbucks, I'd open a Starbucks. I didn't start the NWA to be the other companies.

So when people try to turn the NWA into the other companies, why would you want a second, third-rate version of what everybody else is running? I don't get that. I didn't build my music brand on being second or third best something, something. It's weird. Yeah. That makes sense? Everything you say, you're the best guest we've ever had on here.

I love talking to you. Please indulge me here. Does family... This is the controversial question. This is silly. Does family guy reach out before they use your photo on an episode? They did. And is it cool?

Or is it like, oh, come on, this again? Are you talking about when they used me as a meme at Disneyland? Yes. They did reach out. They asked to use my song tonight, tonight. So when they flashed me on the screen with the sound, with the sad picture of me in Disneyland, they wanted to use my song.

And I said, no. That would have been a large sum of money. Honestly, it wasn't a large sum of money, but it really wasn't about the money. I just thought it was, let's call it. I don't mind the joke. I think the joke is funny, but don't ask me to participate in the joke.

Does it make sense? This sort of draws a line. I got you. Have a laugh. I'm worth being laughed at. It's cool. It's a silly thing that happened. day. Somebody, if nobody knows, somebody took a picture of me at Disney and looking sad at that

particular instance. I had a great day. It had a lot of fun. It's the happiest place on Earth. Took dozens of pictures with fans. But somehow somebody snapped a telephoto shot of me on a ride looking sad. It became a meme, right? It's funny, right? So have a laugh. Just don't ask me to give you my song, why you're laughing at me. That drew the line there. Have you seen the other very silly thing where it's like Billy Corrigan rides a roller coaster. It's like, wee. Yes.

There are a few moments in your life where you remember something very clearly. You know, Instagram, DM, boom, somebody sends me Billy Corgan on a roller coaster. It's a view of a roller coaster and wee and it's just my voice singing one note for infinity.

From 1979. It's a silly joke. It's going to wait viral. That was funny. Yeah. Okay. They're using my song. And great. Okay. When the 700th person sent me and said, have you seen this? And you're just like, yes, I've seen the meme, you know.

Am I the 700th person to ask you in an interview? Well, you reach a point where it's like, because the way AI works on, you know, whatever, Instagram and stuff. Yeah. People always don't get those things at the same time. Right. Like with the algorithm, yeah. Yeah. So the algorithm will give you something.

You're like, oh, check out this clip. And everybody's seen it for eight years. But to you, it's like, oh, my God, have you seen the guy getting punched in the face? So then you send it to your friend. And then your friend's like, dude, that's like seven years old, right? Yeah. So that's that clip of me going down the roller cone. Thank you for indulging me there.

That was definitely indulgent. That's so inside. I can't believe it. Well, do you think the forbidden door will ever be opened up that some of your talent could be shared with A.A.W. Impact Wrestling or vice versa? I have made those offers and the business was not done. I think we did do some stuff with impact and it was positive. I think they're very much on their own lane.

They were doing stuff with AEW as well and they seem at the moment very focused on just worrying about what they're doing. And I can't begrudge them from that. I do think there were and are, although now I'm not in the mindset. So I'm kind of in a similar mindset now, which is like the NWA should just worry about the NWA. But I do think, and I've said this many times, I do think that the public would benefit from all the major independent. And I include A.W. in its own way because it's, you could argue it's an independent company. Because it's basically an indie mindset blown up writ large. If all those companies band it together, they could create an event that would rival or even surpass Russellmania.

But you get into factions, egos. And that's the end of the discussion. When I've said it through the years, and I've said it probably for over three years, I think it's probably taken on the other side of that conversation as being self-serving, like, well, yeah, we would be doing you a favor. No, I'm saying it as somebody who's been in media for over 30 years and can read the landscape. Why wouldn't you want an event where you could rival the biggest wrestling event in the world? And it's laying right there on the table, and it's been laying there on the table,

and it's been laying there for over three years. So I'm not casting aspersions or cutting a promo on anybody, but I think it's bad business. And let's just pretend the NWA doesn't exist. And there's no Billy Corgan. I'm just Billy Corgan, the rock star making a point about metapolitics in the world. The way the world works is they only pay attention

if something is screaming in their face, pay attention. And as I said at the beginning of this podcast, most of the world doesn't care about wrestling. that is not a negative against wrestling. We're sitting here talking because we love wrestling. Yes. And we're talking to a lot of people who love wrestling. Yes.

Why wouldn't you want the world who doesn't love wrestling to hear and find out about what you love? Yeah. So if you want to talk about, you know, in Omega or, you know, whoever, Will Osprey, why wouldn't you want the whole world to see Will Osprey given nine-star Meltzer jerkoff match? we've already seen it and we've benefited as fans to watch greatness happen. So all I'm trying to say

is a critic from the outside, because I can't walk both sides of it, is wrestling is passing up a tremendous opportunity. And by the way, now that WWE is being sold to endeavor, you now have a $21 billion

company with UFC over here and WWWW over here. here. So that puts even more pressure on everybody else that's not in that ecosystem. Yeah. And whether you want to start with Tony and work your way down or New Japan and work your way down, it doesn't matter. Whether it's Scott Demore or Billy Corrigan or Tony, we're all faced with this Goliath. We will see marketing like you've never seen. We will see, I mean, you can't even imagine what they're going to do. I mean, they're licking their chops. They are about to run the fight game for the next 30 years.

So, I mean, so, again, somebody who's not worried about the ego of it goes, well, why wouldn't you put all these things together and create something that they can't, the Goliath can't mess with? Yeah. So if that sounds self-serving, go ahead. I'm just pointing out, it's like the king has no clothes. It's like, does anybody see what's possible? Would you be interested in an event where the top.

The top wrestlers not signed a W.W. once a year would be in the same building. Of course. And I think that the answer from every wrestling fan is, yes, hell yeah. Okay. Would it make sense if it was a two-day event? Sure. Sign me up. Don't you think it's possible that you could take the top talent from every company

and put that together in a way that would be, every media would have to cover it. It would be unmistakable. It would sell out of stadium, no problem. For two nights, no problem. It would be a destination event, whether it was in Vegas or Green Bay, Wisconsin. If anyone could do it, I think Billy Corrigan could bring us together. I don't have that. I don't know.

You could talk to Tony. You could talk to Scott. Tony don't want to talk to me. Again, I'm going back to the, let's call it the more respectful side of the conversation. Tony's worried about Tony. Scott's worried about Scott. Billy's worried about Billy. Pumpkins.

Everybody could do what they want to do. I'm not the little kid in the corner begging. I don't need anybody's help. NWA is completely self-funded. I don't have any partners. I don't need anybody's permission. Everything we've talked about is basically the NWA being its own ecosystem in its own world.

So if that's all we ever are, that's fine. I think it's a disservice on a business level and to the fans to not put something together that the Goliath over here. And trust me, if you thought WWW was powerful before, you have no idea what's coming now. Yeah. None. Because now you're opening up, you know, and now that we're past some of the political issues with the Saudis and stuff like that. And I'm not saying it's not, it's not dicey. It has its own issues. What I'm saying is the world is opening up into a global economy. If you're a business person and you don't sit there and go, oh my God, you know how many people don't watch television, the way that we watch television in the West, and they're now coming on board because all you need is a phone. You don't even need a kale box. I mean, that is the stuff of wet dreams of, of,

Imagine going back in time to say I'mushnik and say, this is where wrestling can be and what wrestling could reach. They wouldn't even believe it was possible. They were worried about selling tickets to the Kansas City War Memorial. You know what I mean? We're in a totally different ballgame because of digital reach, which is why these companies are putting together this big piece. So why we're over here worried about all this minutia and clickbait stuff over here, there's big, big business going on over here. And I'm at least somebody who's lived in the other world. who can tell you that's what they're doing.

If you want to put your fingers in yours and pretend and say, I like this better and I'm, well, there may come a point where your liking of it may not be the difference. I feel like people are going to be playing back that clip in like five years. Like, oh, Billy told us that this is what endeavor was going to be. There's people playing clips to me from music from 20 years ago, right, called it out. But nobody wants to hear it because it's a fantasy-led business.

You know, so have your fantasy. I don't mind in this setting, you know, and there are a few other settings where I feel comfortable to talk about as strictly as a business can this. Can I ask you one more silly question? Sure. Haven't they all been silly questions? They all have been silly. How many times have you seen the Billy? What are we going to have a rat in a cage match?

Believe it or not. That actually came up recently in an NWA meeting. We were talking about it. We were joking and talking about having a rat in the, but I think. think, and you can help me with this. Sure, sure. Because this is where I got lost. I love the idea of a rat in the cage match, right?

Let's just say it's a cage match. That's exactly what it is. Okay, so it's a cage match, rat in the cage match. Yeah. And we've talked about it. So you're actually talking about something we have been discussing. Incredible. This is clickbait right here.

You look, it's like seven views. What's the finish, though? Because I immediately go to the weasel match with Hennon where you have to wear the weasel suit. What a deep. Cut. Wow. Right. So is the rat in the cage match that you have to wear a rat suit? No, it's just the rat gets out of the cage. Like it's Billy Corrigan. Come on. There's got to be a ring. Come on. The song plays during the promo. No, no, come on. You got, you do better than that. You've got to be, there's got to be some other compunction in there that. That's got to be, that. Have you had any, you make, like, you make a vegan like me cheese? Like, like, you know, what's the. Oh, that's good. Have you had any smashing pumpkin songs play in the NWA? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, then, I mean, this is perfect. I mean, we already have a song for the Rat in a Cage match.

Some of my songs used to be played in T&A back in the name. Your song, I remember how distinctly your song guided the Watchman trailer. Yes, that was an interesting thing because I wrote that song for a Batman, the one with Uma and Schwarzenegger. Oh, wow. And Clooney was Batman. Was it? Batman forever? Oh, geez.

I better look because they're going to get us other words. wise. You Googling? Yeah, all the world's information is in front of us. So let's see. You Google on your show? Not usually, but I don't want to get it wrong. I'm going to go with Batman forever.

I think you're correct. And of course, it's not loading. So I got to visit the South. I'll kill you the dead time that you're creating with your lack of professionalism. Jeez. They have computers that work back here. I got to visit the set. That was helpful.

Oh, wow. I got, I went one day. They invited me down and it was the poison ivy set. Oh, that was cool. So imagine like a whole warehouse. thing. And it was like, you know, like you think now they would do it with CGI or whatever. So there were like plants for like 100 yards.

I mean, it was crazy huge. They created this thing. And Huma was in Gimmick, which was cool. Yeah, so what was weird about that is I wrote that song. I did two version of the songs, a fast version, a slow version. The fast version was a single. Fans didn't like the slow version, Pumpkins fans. And so the, you know, the song basically lapsed into obscurity.

And then all of a sudden somebody sends me one day, hey, can we use this song for the Watchman trailer? And I was like, it was like a dream set of images with the song. And then I think like the day the song, this is back when people would still buy music on Apple. But the day the song debuted on the trailer, I think we sold like 11,000 of the song. Wow.

Just like, that's crazy. Yeah. From a song that it lapsed, like you said. So imagine having like a, you know, a 200,000. million dollar video for your song that nobody cared about it. So since then, its songs become like a bit of a classic now, posthumously in the Pumpkins World.

We have played it on tour. It's a cool song. Yeah. It was actually produced by Nellie Hooper, who most notably produced, nothing compares to you by Sheney O'Connor, who just passed away. And so there's your six degrees of separation.

And I knew Sheneid a little bit and very sad about her passing. Yeah. So where am I going with that? How do we get it back to wrestling? I think that was it. I have so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Have I escaped the wrestling bubble by at least by talking about some of my other experiences? I mean, that's why people are taking photos of you.

Yeah. It's like, it's Billy Corgan. Oh, my gosh. Should we talk about NWA 75? Absolutely. Are you not going to promote my event here? Of course we are. That's what we started with.

Not really. You went into controversy. You went into clickbait. You went into memes. We at least promote the event. It's a big pay-per-view. Two days. St. Louis.

It's the biggest pay-per-view. August 26 and 27. Your friend, Matt Cardona is the main event. Speaking of Matt Cardona. Your world heavyweight champion, Tyrus, I know you're a big fan. My friend Joe Alonzo is going to be there.

Joe Alonzo, very talented. Also under contract to the NWA. Tyrus floating out retirement. He has legitimately been talking about retiring. So he says if he loses this match, he's retiring. And Tyrus haters are rejoicing at the idea. Well, cool. I look at a man who's put his body through a lot. When you're that big,

you know, it's, you know, it's very physical to be that big just to move through life. And he is a big man, you know, with 6-7, 370. So if it's his time, okay, I'd be not surprised, more sort of like, feel like we still left some stuff on the table. But if he reaches that point, then okay. You know, he certainly walks to the beat of his own drum. And so if he's ready, he's ready. I do know he's going to go out with hell of a fight, and hence him wanted to book it as a bow-rope match.

And what am I trying to say? There's the promotional aspect of, okay, it's going to be a bull-rope match and it'll be a very good match between two guys who have a lot of history together, him and EC-3. EC3 doing tremendous work right now, too. A guy looks incredible. He's unbelievable. And I know, as I pointed out, he was at my 50th birthday party. I know, I know EC3, the man as well. Very smart, very cool person. I love that guy. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of energy there between them. So on a booking thing, it looks good on paper. But let's step back one second because I think this is the right venue to talk about that stuff because we have talked about it. Why does Tyrus, the global icon, why does he want to do a bow rope match? Because in the

there is still the little kid who loves Dusty Rose. And Dusty Rhodes was his great teacher. So he'd be at the Performance Center working with Dusty. That's the part that fans don't see. And I'm not saying, you should understand it differently. I'm saying is sometimes look a little past the sale on what you're told and understand that people in this business have a lot of passion. So just that little glimmer of thing, it's a tribute to Dusty.

So what is the champion, the national wrestling land, 75 years of lineal champions? What does he want to do in the main event of the 75th anniversary show of this company? He wants to pay tribute to his teacher and his friend. That's the part that people get lost sometimes. And that's the part that I have access to. I'd be remiss to not mention Aaron, Aaron Stevens. My goodness, that man is talented. Speaking of Bobby Heenan, when we finally,

landed and we've been through a lot of iterations through the years and don't forget I go back to doing TNA remember when we were in TNA and he was doing kind of a Liberacee gimmick. I mean we experimented with a lot of stuff through the years. What was it? Spud? Rockstar Spud was his ballet. That was some funny stuff.

It did it for like three weeks. Yeah. Well that's when the company got sold and that was the end of that. That would have been a lot of good TV. Anybody remembers that? Yes. Thank you for remembering. So Aaron also, because of his own, you know, relationship and issues at times with the business, started talking about retiring.

And he's had some success as an actor in L.A. and I said, why don't you just manage for a while? Just step back, do something different. And it's like, I'm like, oh my God, you walk through the career. And I was like, it's Bobby Heenan. Now, you got to remember as a kid, I used to watch Bobby Heenan. They would put Bobby Heenan in three matches a night at the house shows. In Chicago, they would do TV for a month. They would probably do a little bunch of regional stuff, and they'd do one big show with the International Amphitheater, 14,000 people.

How do I know? Because I have all the sheets where they have to sign the commission. And you look at the gates, 14,000, 13,700. Wow. Month after month. They sold out the International Amphitheater, I think, for 300. 185 shows in a row. Wow.

They were doing real business. Yeah. Okay. So Heenan would be on three matches a night. That's how much, that's how good Hean was for business. He'd be in three matches a night. So they, he'd manage some lower, you know, lower card tag team, some heel in the middle, and then he'd be in the main event.

Man. So Aaron has that gear. Yeah. So that's, that's one of the reasons that Aaron is currently. under contract because, you know, I have, I have a feeling at some point the hand from above is going to want to pluck Aaron back up because there's a lot of money what Aaron's doing. Well, the hand from above came and plucked Wade Barrett away from you. It did. I was very happy. In fact, I talked to Wade after that. I was very happy.

We're very talented. I loved working with him. I wish he was still with us because he's such a talented broadcaster. And he, you know, he made it very clear, like, look, I'm retired. Like, I don't, I'm done with that part of my life. Yeah. I'm very happy to see his success. that's what I'm saying about the NWA. It's like we provided some interesting things. And because of things that happened to NWA, suddenly it's like somebody goes, boom. You know, so that's not a bad thing. That's really, if you think about it's credit to what we built. It has been such a pleasure to be able to sit here. I can't believe. Spend some time with you. You're not going to talk about Camille. Do you want to go through the whole card? No, we can. I'm just, I'm, I'm,

challenging the promoter and you are a promoter. Bring it. Camille is an absolute brickhouse. wait, we have 800 days of holding that title? She is so supremely talented, both in the ring and outside of the ring. And I remember, she's a specimen. And I'll remember when she started the NWA, people were like, what are they doing? She is, she has an incredible future, and I love that it's in the NWA. I hope so, yeah. Okay, so Markova, you know, Markova?

That's her opponent. You know anything about Markov? Not as much as I know about Camille. Russian-born. I came to America about five years ago. And at one point, had some interests from W-2B typical. It didn't quite click and has been on the independent circuit. I think she's probably the toughest female wrestler in the world right now.

And it's interesting because, you know, you can book stuff on paper, but until you see it in the ring, and we've had a couple matches so far with Markova. I think Markov is probably, Camille's ultimate opponent. Can match her not so much in size. Markov was about 4, 5, 4, 5, 5.5. But the physicality that Camille brings to the ring because of her athletic background

and obviously her size, I think this might be the ultimate matchup. And as we've seen, and of course we've all seen it at great WrestleMania, is there's something about a signature event where everybody kind of ups their game. They come and look in a little better and they see these as career-defining matches. So I think Camille and Markova, which will headline night one of 75 to two-night event, I think that's one to really watch out for. So the question I will end with, it's the same question I end every conversation with, is what are three?

I deserve my own ending question. Oh, you can, sure. No, go ahead. What are three things in your life that you're most grateful for right now? Family. Family. My family. You know, I went through life and had a lot of tremendous success.

a lot of incredible opportunities. And there's pictures of me everywhere with all sorts of incredible famous people, including people that were heroes of mine and I got to work in studios with them. I mean, my life just on the music side has been absolutely incredible. But it wasn't until I had my own family

that all that made sense. It was always like being some kind of weird Willy Wonka factory where one piece of candy was amazing and one piece of candy tasted really bad. And I wasn't quite sure what the count was at some point. At times it felt like the bad outweighed the good. And we've all seen the behind.

the music. So, you know, nobody needs to know my particular story to understand that being in a successful rock band, it comes with a weird set of prices to it. Okay, do you said three things? Yeah, family? Longevity. I think it's amazing that the band is still going. We just played a solo show here in Vegas. Last night, we're going to be played another solo show tomorrow and we're embarking on a summer tour with Interpol and Rival Sons and Stone Temple pilots would be on some of those dates. So just that alone to be a headlining band, arena level headlining band after 35 years with three quarters of the original band back together.

We're only missing one who shall never return. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And, you know, it's not many people at this late in the game have, you know, three hit songs at one time. And it's a pretty good run. If you're having to run, I'm not saying it's Hogan's turn. You know what I mean? But it's it, we're in the neighborhood there on the music side.

Yeah. Number three? I think it's just living my life the way I want to live it. Part of what we talked about today is just, I'm just going to live my life the way I want to live it. I think we've seen here in the past six months, two years, I think people are starting to realize that a lot of life is programmed, whether it's through television or propaganda, whatever.

And there are a commercial interest for that and there are governmental interest for that. most people do better when they kind of figure out, here's who I am, and I want to apply myself into that, and I want to get in the fight of life, and I want to figure out who I am, and I want to figure out what I'm good at. They're sitting behind a keyboard, telling other people how to live,

whether it's somebody said the wrong word or somebody did the wrong thing. I think we're kind of maybe starting to mature past that. And if you look at the great successes in American culture, they tend to be one-of-a-kind spirits who basically don't listen to what anybody tells them about to do and they just figure out, whether you're Elon Musk or in the wind casino. I mean, it's very, very successful individuals in American culture tend to do well. And so my path in life is to just do what I do. And trust me, you hear the criticism, but if you're around as long as I've been, you realize the criticism doesn't really change what's, let's call it the business concern at the end.

If the NWA was as simple as listening to the critics and doing what the critics wanted and suddenly magically I got the company I wanted, I'm not saying I'm such a strong person that I wouldn't do it. But I don't believe that. So why wouldn't I do the thing that I believe in? It's easy to stand on the sidelines and throw a dart and say, you should do that. That's cheap. That's easy. That's it. Those are three great things. Billy Corgan. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mike. is 75 is August 26th and 27th. Live from St. Louis, you can watch the free show on YouTube and the main card on fight. I'm just really excited for everything that NWA has going on right now. And Billy is such a smart person. I love having him on the show. And I can't wait to see how his vision comes to fruition with everything he has planned for the NWA. Please share out this episode and take a screenshot and tag us so we can.

also reposted and re-tweet it and regram it on Instagram. He is at Billy on Twitter. I'm at Chris Van Fleet, and I don't know who needs to hear this quote, but hopefully this speaks to you. It's from Rebecca Wells, and she said, life is short, but it is wide. This too shall pass. There you go.

Be great. Be grateful. We will see you on the next one with Shelton Benjamin. Can't wait for you to hear this one. We'll see you on the next one. for some more insight. The Hammer Alley podcast, an 80s flashback mockumentary. Back in the 80s, there were a thousand bands trying to make it in the world of rock, but there was one band that had it all.

Hammer Alley. Whatever happened to Hammer Alley? How did they go from top of the rock? I'm looking for a music video. They're a band from 1987. Hammer Alley. Ever heard of them? To Rock Bottom.

Dude, I was born in 1987. I can't believe he's doing this. Hammer Allie. Follow and listen. on your favorite platform.